Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2

Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/03/20 05:11 AM

There are many medications being proposed as potentially repurposed (existing drugs for other conditions that might work for COVID-19.

This thread is started as a place to talk about new research, results from existing randomized controlled trials, promising news about medications, etc.

Studies already published have included repurposed drugs, as listed below.

These are mainly against non-structural proteins of SARS-CoV2: the main 3C-like protease (Lopinavir, Ritonavir, Indinavir, Atazanavir, Nelfinavir, and Clocortolone), RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (Remdesivir and Ribavirin), and the papain-like protease (Mycophenolic acid, Telaprevir, Boceprevir, Grazoprevir, Darunavir, Chloroquine, Hydroxychloroquine, and Formoterol).

The best-documented multi-target drugs repurposed for COVID-19 therapy are as follows: antiviral drugs commonly used to treat AIDS/HIV (Atazanavir, Efavirenz, and Dolutegravir Ritonavir, Raltegravir, and Darunavir, Lopinavir, Saquinavir, Nelfinavir, and Indinavir), HCV (Grazoprevir, Lomibuvir, Asunaprevir, Ribavirin, and Simeprevir), HBV (Entecavir), HSV (Penciclovir), CMV (Ganciclovir), parasites (Ivermectin), bacterial infections (Azithromycin) and Ebola (Remdesivir), anticoagulant drug (Dabigatran), and an antifungal drug (Itraconazole).
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/03/20 05:56 AM

ARBs and ACE Inhibitors might have some use too. They can steer the immune system reactions away from inflammatory toward the anti-inflammatory path, because they mess with one of the receptors the virus uses.

MEDCRAM on YouTube has some very detailed talks primarily for doctors by a pulmonary specialist working at Loma Linda. They get pretty complicated but if you have any biochemistry or medical training they are not that hard to follow. I like the fact that he uses evidence from scientific journal papers to back everything up.

By the way, every patient he sees who he thinks has the virus gets hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and ivermectin.

He even has one on what he's taking and doing to stay healthy seeing Covid-19 patients every day. I'm trying to duplicate that since I am high-risk.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/03/20 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
ARBs and ACE Inhibitors might have some use too. They can steer the immune system reactions away from inflammatory toward the anti-inflammatory path, because they mess with one of the receptors the virus uses.

MEDCRAM on YouTube has some very detailed talks primarily for doctors by a pulmonary specialist working at Loma Linda. They get pretty complicated but if you have any biochemistry or medical training they are not that hard to follow. I like the fact that he uses evidence from scientific journal papers to back everything up.

By the way, every patient he sees who he thinks has the virus gets hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and ivermectin.

He even has one on what he's taking and doing to stay healthy seeing Covid-19 patients every day. I'm trying to duplicate that since I am high-risk.


In principle I don't like that. One-size-fits-all approach, using treatments that haven't been approved yet and haven't seen bona fide scientific proof of safety and efficacy doesn't seem like good medical practice to me.

Again, the value I grant to such *opinions* of someone not involved in randomized clinical trials is pretty much zero.

I'll wait for the conclusion of the RCTs before forming an opinion.

I'm high risk too; what I'm doing is using strict PPE, isolating as much as possible, practicing social distancing and lots of hand-washing and surface disinfection. I won't use unproven medication cocktails.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/06/20 06:39 AM

How about this? It's a release of preliminary data from a retrospective study done on Covid-19 patients in Indonesia. Very simple arms: Those who lived versus those who died. They found the usual strong correlations with sex, age, and co-morbidities, but they also had Vitamin D blood levels. When they factored out the other things, they found that patients with low Vitamin D levels were over 10 TIMES as likely to die, than patients with normal levels (>30 ng/ml). That not 10%, it's 10 times.

Indonesia Preliminary Results

This has not been peer-reviewed yet, but their analysis looks pretty reasonable. If it's true, it means we could probably cut our death rates by 10 times just by correcting everybody's Vitamin D levels. And a huge percentage of people in the US have Vitamin D insufficiency or actual deficiency. In particular, a lot of people with dark skin can't make much from our non-tropical sunlight and inside work. Also more than half the elderly have deficiency!

Correcting your Vitamin D level is usually as simple as taking 2500 iu per day of Vitamin D3. I actually take about 8000 iu per day for my MS but I do monitor my blood level. I doubt 2500 iu per day could harm anybody unless their doctor has warned them not to take it.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/06/20 05:48 PM

There has also been some correlative information about hyperferritinemia (high blood iron) and COVID-19. Some of that relationship, however, seems to run far ahead of observation. What is completely unknown (and why I have my doubts about some of the assertions) is whether the hyperferritinemia is a risk factor for cytokine storms, or if the virus itself is the causative factor for the hyperferritinemia. As may be immediately apparent, I have no expertise, and only limited experience, in the fields of biology and biochemistry (I used to be an EMT in my early adult worklife), but I am greatly interested and a quick study (or at least, used to be) so I want to understand this.

For me, the connections between treatments and this virus, that are best understood (by me), are the mechanisms that the medications address. Hydrochloroquine, for example, is used as a cytokine inhibitor (as I understand it), which for someone not succeptible to hyperproduction of cytokines or other inflammatory agents, would actually be worse for fighting off the disease process itself - by inhibiting the production of the very antibodies necessary to fight the virus (antigens). Am I misunderstanding this relationship?

The list of potential medications is long and daunting, but the mechanisms that they implicate is smaller. Each of those mechanisms, though, it seems to me, represents a double-edged sword - creating the possibility of side effects at least as deadly as, or potentially increasing the mortality of, the disease itself. We have little enough understanding of the disease to go tromping off into "cures" that may be of marginal value based on panicky expediency rather than careful analysis.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/06/20 06:54 PM

That's one thing I like about Vitamin D: The high safe level is 100 ng/ml. Nobody is ever harmed by keeping their blood levels below that number. Doctors routinely treat Vitamin D deficiency with single injections of 90,000 iu followed by high D3 supplementation. There has been some concern in the past about Vitamin D overdose causing calcium deposits, but it's extremely rare to see that at blood levels below 100 ng/ml. One case had a patient taking some huge overdose because of a label mixup, and he had no overdose symptoms.

There have been hundreds of peer-reviewed journal papers showing Vitamin D participation in all sorts of immune and other bodily functions. I have never seen one on the back-edge of the Vitamin D sword. So taking a safe amount of Vitamin D3 is extremely unlikely to harm anyone. It's also extremely cheap.

Ask you doctor, or look up your blood level in your medical records if you had it tested. Your doctor can tell you about the recent clinical info that supports regular Vitamin D supplementation. The optimal value seems to be 30 ng/ml. Most Americans are below that, and some are far below that.

That Indonesia paper was far from the first on the topic. In regards to Covid-19, doctors have reported that their ICU patients (including young people) are almost uniformly deficient in Vitamin D.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/06/20 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
How about this? It's a release of preliminary data from a retrospective study done on Covid-19 patients in Indonesia. Very simple arms: Those who lived versus those who died. They found the usual strong correlations with sex, age, and co-morbidities, but they also had Vitamin D blood levels. When they factored out the other things, they found that patients with low Vitamin D levels were over 10 TIMES as likely to die, than patients with normal levels (>30 ng/ml). That not 10%, it's 10 times.

Indonesia Preliminary Results

This has not been peer-reviewed yet, but their analysis looks pretty reasonable. If it's true, it means we could probably cut our death rates by 10 times just by correcting everybody's Vitamin D levels. And a huge percentage of people in the US have Vitamin D insufficiency or actual deficiency. In particular, a lot of people with dark skin can't make much from our non-tropical sunlight and inside work. Also more than half the elderly have deficiency!

Correcting your Vitamin D level is usually as simple as taking 2500 iu per day of Vitamin D3. I actually take about 8000 iu per day for my MS but I do monitor my blood level. I doubt 2500 iu per day could harm anybody unless their doctor has warned them not to take it.


Good information.

People with very low level (like 15-20) will probably not have it corrected with 2,500 units per day. One standard treatment is 50,000 units per week times 6 weeks then recheck, often people need another 6 weeks of the high dose before they can go back to maintenance doses. Beware: vitamin D above 75 has been associated with increased mortality due to calcium deposit in arteries. Best level is around 50.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/06/20 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

The list of potential medications is long and daunting, but the mechanisms that they implicate is smaller. Each of those mechanisms, though, it seems to me, represents a double-edged sword - creating the possibility of side effects at least as deadly as, or potentially increasing the mortality of, the disease itself. We have little enough understanding of the disease to go tromping off into "cures" that may be of marginal value based on panicky expediency rather than careful analysis.


I couldn't agree more. Which is exactly why I was so against the push for HCQ + AZ.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/06/20 10:40 PM

I was keeping my D level right at 100 ng/ml, which is what Scripp's Clinic still lists as the maximum "normal" level on their patient test results page. But my PCP recommended getting it down to 70 or so. That's what I do by taking about 8000 iu / day. 70 is about what they observe in life guards. Like I say, I'm a special case because of my MS, and I do get it measured regularly. That Indonesia paper counted everybody with >30 ng/ml as normal. I'm sure 50 would be great for most people.

I never understood why anyone would give AZ for a virus, especially with HCQ: That's one of the listed dangerous combinations since both elongate the QT interval.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/06/20 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I was keeping my D level right at 100 ng/ml, which is what Scripp's Clinic still lists as the maximum "normal" level on their patient test results page. But my PCP recommended getting it down to 70 or so. That's what I do by taking about 8000 iu / day. 70 is about what they observe in life guards. Like I say, I'm a special case because of my MS, and I do get it measured regularly. That Indonesia paper counted everybody with >30 ng/ml as normal. I'm sure 50 would be great for most people.

I never understood why anyone would give AZ for a virus, especially with HCQ: That's one of the listed dangerous combinations since both elongate the QT interval.


Yes, the combination is riskier for QTc prolongation than each one separately. I think the rationale for adding AZ is the strong anti-inflammatory effect. AZ often helps bronchitis more due to its anti-inflammatory effect than to its antibiotic effect.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/08/20 12:28 AM

Columbia University study of hydroxychloroquine use in hospitalized patients found no benefit.
Two problems:

!) They only gave this antiviral to patients when they were full of virus enough to be hospitalized. Oh, they were nice enough to not count patients who died within 24 hours! This is WAY too late to use an antiviral. Not surprising at all that it didn't work. Doctors do the same stupid thing with Tamiflu.

2) No mention in the abstract of Zinc. One of the biggest benefits of HCQ is that it's a zinc ionophore, and zinc blocks viral replication. But I guess doctors think of zinc as a mineral, and therefor only important for deficiencies.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/08/20 01:28 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Columbia University study of hydroxychloroquine use in hospitalized patients found no benefit.
Two problems:

!) They only gave this antiviral to patients when they were full of virus enough to be hospitalized. Oh, they were nice enough to not count patients who died within 24 hours! This is WAY too late to use an antiviral. Not surprising at all that it didn't work. Doctors do the same stupid thing with Tamiflu.

2) No mention in the abstract of Zinc. One of the biggest benefits of HCQ is that it's a zinc ionophore, and zinc blocks viral replication. But I guess doctors think of zinc as a mineral, and therefor only important for deficiencies.


There's been studies with non-hospitalized patients in earlier phases of the infection that also did not benefit of HCQ.

What is the evidence that zinc helps? Any studies?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/08/20 02:09 AM

Read the actual paper: "Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were more severely ill at baseline than those who did not receive hydroxychloroquine (median ratio of partial pressure of arterial oxygen to the fraction of inspired oxygen, 223 vs. 360)."

So the sickest patients had worse outcomes, when you give them an antiviral drug that does not help very sick patients. Duh. We already knew that. That's exactly what the VA study told us. HCQ is not a miracle drug that can save people as a last resort.

They also were giving some patients remdesivir, azithromycin, or some other antiviral drug. It's pretty messy, but they say they fixed up all of that with some whiz-band stats.

>What is the evidence that zinc helps? Any studies?

Easy to Google. Lots of papers about hydroxychloroquine as a zinc ionophore. Lots of papers on zinc blocking corona virus replication in vitro. Some government health authorities recommending the combination. Some studies underway, ie:

HCQ and Zinc Trial

Actually, the whole "compassionat use" system is totally ineffective for antivirals. You have to ask the FDA for a drug for your dying patient, when the drug does not work for dying patients. I suspect that has happened a lot with remdesivir.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/08/20 12:59 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Read the actual paper: "Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were more severely ill at baseline than those who did not receive hydroxychloroquine (median ratio of partial pressure of arterial oxygen to the fraction of inspired oxygen, 223 vs. 360)."

So the sickest patients had worse outcomes, when you give them an antiviral drug that does not help very sick patients. Duh. We already knew that. That's exactly what the VA study told us. HCQ is not a miracle drug that can save people as a last resort.

They also were giving some patients remdesivir, azithromycin, or some other antiviral drug. It's pretty messy, but they say they fixed up all of that with some whiz-band stats.

>What is the evidence that zinc helps? Any studies?

Easy to Google. Lots of papers about hydroxychloroquine as a zinc ionophore. Lots of papers on zinc blocking corona virus replication in vitro. Some government health authorities recommending the combination. Some studies underway, ie:

HCQ and Zinc Trial

Actually, the whole "compassionat use" system is totally ineffective for antivirals. You have to ask the FDA for a drug for your dying patient, when the drug does not work for dying patients. I suspect that has happened a lot with remdesivir.


Do you have a link to the VA study? The quote you mentioned is apparently not from the VA study. It is from a Columbia-Presbyterian study.

Again, a point you seem to be persistently not taking into consideration; I heard (not sure of its accuracy as I haven't read the VA study) that even AFTER correcting the statistical treatment to account for the higher acuity of the patients who received HCQ, the disadvantage *persisted.* I'd like to read the study to, one, confirm that it was the case, and two, see the statistical treatment of the data, in order to form an opinion.

Several studies have arms that differ in one or more aspects but you *can* adjust the data for it.

Re: Zinc, we'll see, when the study concludes. Too bad it's open label. Hopefully the researchers will be unbiased, but after all the shenanigans pulled off by Professor Raoult of Marseille, I'd much prefer a double-blind study.

Again, in-vitro activity and in-vivo activity are two *vastly* different domains, and Medicine is shock-full of potential drugs that had in-vitro activity against infectious agents and didn't pay off in-vivo. I'll reserve judgment.

And again, there is no proof that HCQ helps less severe patients, either. That's another point you're persistently not taking into account.

What evidence do you have that HCQ would help for less severe patient? The theoretical activity in-vitro to inhibit replication? That's NOT proof of clinical usefulness.

*Regardless* of a drug's promising characteristics in-vitro, theoretically, or due to mechanism of action, it *can* fail miserably in a real-life in-vivo clinical situations, and again, the History of Medicine is shock-full of those. Actually this is way more the rule than the exception. Most in-vitro-active drugs fail to show a clinical benefit.

When RCTs come in with the prophylaxis element (one would hope that if it helps in earlier phases, it would help with prophylaxis) or with just mild cases being studied, in paired and randomized, double blind, controlled trials, THEN I will believe. Not before. Not a second before. Everything else is anecdotal.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/08/20 06:52 PM

I am not claiming early or prophylactic HCQ + zinc works. I am just pointing out why these studies don't prove it doesn't. Scepticism is good. Pretty essential for actual scientific method. We are really talking about hypothesis formation here. If you have the wrong hypothesis, your study proves nothing. Most of these "studies" are not even experiments. They are data mining. If the working thing never occurred in that data, you will not find it.

I've stated the hypothesis that some qualified medical professionals have advanced based on peer-reviewed journal papers. Clinical trials are underway to see if it works under those conditions. I have no dog in this fight, no stock in the company that makes it. But I see a lot of stupid mistakes being made over and over. If we get a good study that tests this hypothesis, and it doesn't work, then great. We will actually know something.

Yes, the evidence is in vitro. But some of that in vitro work was using cultured human cells, and this drug has been used in billions of human doses. So a lot of the reasons for in vitro --> in vivo failures have been eliminated.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/08/20 08:22 PM

I never implied that it's been proven that the drugs do NOT work. If I haven't made it clear here, I made it clear on Debate Politics in the long thread about HCQ being given to New Yorkers. I posted several times there to say that while efficacy hasn't been proven, lack thereof hasn't been proven, either.

Yes, smaller pilot studies, in-vitro activities, are, in terms of hierarchy of evidence, at best hypothesis generation studies (something I said over and over on DP, too). And they are good and important; otherwise we wouldn't have found many medicines that do work. But that's their only role: hypothesis generation. Then the hypothesis needs to be put to the test.

The existing studies, it is not that they have the wrong hypothesis. They are asking legitimate questions: does HCQ work for advanced cases of COVID-19? So far, the data on this is discouraging although like you said definitive proof isn't in yet; there's been case-control series, retrospective studies, small non-randomized studies, and even a couple of small randomized controlled trials (from China, one that suggested it works, one that suggested it doesn't). Large randomized controlled double-blind trials are underway (including for prophylaxis) but haven't concluded yet. Given that in the case of double-blind RCTs, only at the end one opens the envelopes to see who got the active drug and who got placebo, the conclusions are not in, yet.

My guess, from reading a number of studies, some better than others, some very flawed, some relatively decent, is that HCQ will not pay off. But it's just a guess. Proof will come when it comes.

Even cultured human cells can't match the real life situation of a live organism infected with an aggressive virus (for example, cultured human cells don't produce cytokine storms; are not subject to disseminated intravascular coagulation, are not subject to the full dimension of the host's immune response with its advantages and disadvantages). Also, the virus can't be sequestered in some organs and multiply too fast before the drug can stop them. Often the concentration of in-vitro inhibition can't be achieved in-vivo with regular, non-toxic doses.

A drug can show beautiful inhibition of replication in cultured cells... and then once the virus infects a live organism, it may rapidly overwhelm that organism in a way that makes the drug useless.

Again, in-vitro and in-vivo are not just different... they are VASTLY different. Again, in-vivo activity is neat to generate hypothesis, but proves NOTHING in terms of clinical efficacy and safety.

Billions of human doses: not for COVID-19. Safety is disease-specific, a point I made over and over but you come back to the idea that people with lupus, malaria, and RA have taken billions of those doses. Sure, neat. However, those people didn't have COVID-19 which didn't even exist when they were taking those billions of doses. Different ball game.

OK, is HCQ a huge poison that makes most patients taking it drop dead? No. The billions of doses used to treat malaria, lupus, and RA have already demonstrated that. But is it safe in humans for use in cases of COVID-19? We don't know yet, but the first few pieces of info we have are not encouraging.

I don't have a dog in this fight either. I hope HCQ works, I hope zinc works, I hope remdesivir works, I hope something else does.

But it hasn't been proven that any of these do work; it hasn't been proven that they don't, and it hasn't been proven if they may or may not help different degrees of patient severity; it hasn't been proven if they are good prophylactic drugs for SARS-CoV-2.

Look, about the in-vitro versus in-vivo: we don't need to go far. Remdesivir showed in-vitro activity against viruses of the Filoviridae family (Ebola). That generated the hypothesis that it might work against Ebola, in vivo. Well, so much for that. It was an utter failure in the real-life treatment of patients infected with Ebola. It's being repurposed now for COVID-19. We'll see.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/08/20 08:50 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
I hope HCQ works, I hope zinc works, I hope remdesivir works, I hope something else does.

But it hasn't been proven that any of these do work; it hasn't been proven that they don't, and it hasn't been proven if they may or may not help different degrees of patient severity; it hasn't been proven if they are good prophylactic drugs for SARS-CoV-2.

Look, about the in-vitro versus in-vivo: we don't need to go far. Remdesivir showed in-vitro activity against viruses of the Filoviridae family (Ebola). That generated the hypothesis that it might work against Ebola, in vivo. Well, so much for that. It was an utter failure in the real-life treatment of patients infected with Ebola. It's being repurposed now for COVID-19. We'll see.


Forty-five hundred dollars, for a ten dollar drug, if reports are any indicator.

POLITICO

And Gilead has an extensive history of developing very effective drugs, but at a sky-high premium.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/09/20 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
I hope HCQ works, I hope zinc works, I hope remdesivir works, I hope something else does.

But it hasn't been proven that any of these do work; it hasn't been proven that they don't, and it hasn't been proven if they may or may not help different degrees of patient severity; it hasn't been proven if they are good prophylactic drugs for SARS-CoV-2.

Look, about the in-vitro versus in-vivo: we don't need to go far. Remdesivir showed in-vitro activity against viruses of the Filoviridae family (Ebola). That generated the hypothesis that it might work against Ebola, in vivo. Well, so much for that. It was an utter failure in the real-life treatment of patients infected with Ebola. It's being repurposed now for COVID-19. We'll see.


Forty-five hundred dollars, for a ten dollar drug, if reports are any indicator.

POLITICO

And Gilead has an extensive history of developing very effective drugs, but at a sky-high premium.


Again, like in another link posted by you earlier, these are people from outside the company, speculating about the price the company is supposed to charge. That is, they are guessing. Let's wait and see what the numbers actually are, OK?

There are two factors that might bring the numbers significantly down:

1) Remdesivir for COVID-19 research was co-sponsored by the NIH. So, Gilead does owe a debt of gratitude to the government. So, the final price will have to include a negotiation in which hopefully (although with the Trump administration one never knows) the governmental side of the equation will pressure Gilead to be reasonable.

2) In previous pricing wars, Gilead didn't enjoy the HUGE world-wide exposure they are getting from this. The whole world is watching. Why do you think they donated 140,000 doses of remdesivir? Because it's great PR. They want to be seen as the saviors of humankind. If they make and sell remdesivir much closer to cost, they will earn a lot of goodwill with governments all over the world, and this may become a good capital for their future endeavors.

So, for now, I wouldn't pay much attention to pundits. We'll see how much remdesivir will cost to actual patients. It might be a lot less than these pundits are anticipating.

Again, to be clear: I have nothing for or against Gilead Sciences and own no Gilead stocks. I'm just expressing my humble opinion. I hope I'm right, but maybe I am not. We'll see.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/09/20 08:56 PM

Seems kosher to me. Free to the poor, an $8 scrip if you're insured, $45 over the counter. Everybody will be happy and Gilead CEO gets Medal OF Freedom from President Biden.

I love happy endings!
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/09/20 09:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Seems kosher to me. Free to the poor, an $8 scrip if you're insured, $45 over the counter. Everybody will be happy and Gilead CEO gets Medal OF Freedom from President Biden.

I love happy endings!


Yes! I love the President Biden part!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/10/20 01:00 AM

Much more likely they offer an assistance program so the uninsured poor don't have to pay much. But insurance companies get it for the negotiated discount price of $5000. Retails at $8000, which Medicare has to pay.

As for giving 140,000 treatments away, that's them getting a whole bunch of drug trials for free! If it works in some situations (which I bet it does) they have about 300 million more potential customers in the US alone. Not to mention the rest of the world.

There is also the distinct possibility that a Covid-19 attack aborted with an antiviral would not get you IgG antibodies. So you could catch it again, and be a repeat customer.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/11/20 09:25 PM

A bit of encouraging news: Seems like NAC (n-acetylcystein) might be useful for treating very sick Covid-19 patients in the ICU. This is not an antiviral, it's an antioxidant and a pretty sophisticated clot-buster. The biochemistry is pretty complex. If you are into that stuff, you can watch Medcram #69 on Youtube for the pathways and tons of journal paper references.

Basically, Covid-19 makes a nasty critter called super-oxide which can cause endothelial disruption. Cells in your blood vessel walls that are normally covered by endothelium then release something called VWF. That forms long polymer chains that help bind platelets into clots. The clots are what causes most Covid-19 deaths.

NAC can help reduce super-oxide to OH- and water, and it can break up VWF polymers. In fact, some of those papers actually talk about using NAC to bust clots from other pathologies. This is not very helpful during the virus replication phase. It does nothing to slow that down. But it's nice if doctors have a drug that they can use for critical patients besides heparin. There is a clinical trial underway that uses NAC in exactly this way. Oh, and adverse reactions are so far rare or non-existent.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/11/20 10:59 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
A bit of encouraging news: Seems like NAC (n-acetylcystein) might be useful for treating very sick Covid-19 patients in the ICU. This is not an antiviral, it's an antioxidant and a pretty sophisticated clot-buster. The biochemistry is pretty complex. If you are into that stuff, you can watch Medcram #69 on Youtube for the pathways and tons of journal paper references.

Basically, Covid-19 makes a nasty critter called super-oxide which can cause endothelial disruption. Cells in your blood vessel walls that are normally covered by endothelium then release something called VWF. That forms long polymer chains that help bind platelets into clots. The clots are what causes most Covid-19 deaths.

NAC can help reduce super-oxide to OH- and water, and it can break up VWF polymers. In fact, some of those papers actually talk about using NAC to bust clots from other pathologies. This is not very helpful during the virus replication phase. It does nothing to slow that down. But it's nice if doctors have a drug that they can use for critical patients besides heparin. There is a clinical trial underway that uses NAC in exactly this way. Oh, and adverse reactions are so far rare or non-existent.


Yes, NAC is a very interesting drug.

I started today the Eastern Virgina Medical School protocol that you diffused here, for me and for my wife (got the tablets and capsules from Amazon), and I sent the information to my son, my daughter, and my brothers and sisters. Thanks for that very helpful protocol.

By the way, I don't know in what thread you posted the link to the protocol. Would you repost here? It belongs here.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/12/20 10:49 PM

Anticoagulation seems to be key to survival. At Mount Sinai Hospital in New York, critical patients on ventilators had a drop in mortality from 62.7% to 29.1% when they got heparin.

https://www.mdedge.com/cardiology/articl...20to%20survival

Another treatment seems to have helped in a small trial: a triple antiviral combination.

https://www.mdedge.com/familymedicine/ar...20to%20survival
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/12/20 11:14 PM

Two more nails in the coffin of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/11/health/hy...s=1589278084735

This shows once more that Dr. Donald J. Trump should not be dispensing medical advice.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/13/20 03:28 PM

Pfizer has announced that they expect to finish phases II and III of their vaccine's trials by October and get FDA approval by then, starting distribution immediately so that they will deliver 20 million doses by the end of the year (and hundreds of millions in 2021). This will be an absolute record, something I previously didn't think would be possible. Hopefully health care workers and first responders will be among the people given these 20 million (most likely politicians will get them too). Pfizer is outsourcing some of their regular medications production, to focus on making the vaccine. They are repurposing their biggest factory to manufacture the vaccine rather than their regular medications.

Moderna and Inovio are also starting phase II trials.

There is hope, after all.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/14/20 01:04 AM

Those "two more nails in the coffin of hydroxychloroquine" are the same New England Journal article we discussed before. Not a real study, but data mining after the fact. Giving HCN to patients with a large viral load doesn't do anything: We already knew that. The reason they die more than the group that didn't get HCN is because they were sicker to begin with.

Here are some very recent publications from the Eastern Virginia Medical School, about treatment for Covid-19 at every phase.


Link to original post

They explain why HCN is only useful at the beginning, viral replication stage. That UCSF Grand Rounds I posted a link to also said that antivirals are not useful once people get really sick.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/14/20 01:19 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Those "two more nails in the coffin of hydroxychloroquine" are the same New England Journal article we discussed before. Not a real study, but data mining after the fact. Giving HCN to patients with a large viral load doesn't do anything: We already knew that. The reason they die more than the group that didn't get HCN is because they were sicker to begin with.

Here are some very recent publications from the Eastern Virginia Medical School, about treatment for Covid-19 at every phase.


Summary


Detail

They explain why HCN is only useful at the beginning, viral replication stage. That UCSF Grand Rounds I posted a link to also said that antivirals are not useful once people get really sick.


Well, I've said it many times but you aren't listening. Even when adjusted for severity of illness, the lack of advantage from HCQ remains.

You tried to repost the Eastern Virginia Medical School links but these aren't links. Redo, please.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/14/20 02:23 AM

Quote:
adjusted for severity of illness, the lack of advantage from HCQ remains


That would be true if their "adjustment for severity of illness" was for a linear illness progression. But it looks like serious Covid-19 progression is almost two different illnesses. During the earlier virus replication phase, antivirals might have an effect. During the later predominately inflammation phase, antivirals have little effect. The amount of virus may actually be going down anyway, because of the immune system response. This phase is essentially an acute autoimmune disease. The important pathology is the attack on the endothelium and the resulting VWF clotting and thrombosis. That's why EVMS only uses HCN in the early phases, and then treats the inflammation phase with prednisolone and heparin and no more HCN or remdesivir.

So we have no new data. All we know is that it looks like HCN is useless in the latter phases.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/14/20 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
adjusted for severity of illness, the lack of advantage from HCQ remains


That would be true if their "adjustment for severity of illness" was for a linear illness progression. But it looks like serious Covid-19 progression is almost two different illnesses. During the earlier virus replication phase, antivirals might have an effect. During the later predominately inflammation phase, antivirals have little effect. The amount of virus may actually be going down anyway, because of the immune system response. This phase is essentially an acute autoimmune disease. The important pathology is the attack on the endothelium and the resulting VWF clotting and thrombosis. That's why EVMS only uses HCN in the early phases, and then treats the inflammation phase with prednisolone and heparin and no more HCN or remdesivir.

So we have no new data. All we know is that it looks like HCN is useless in the latter phases.


The EVMS puts HCQ+AZ as OPTIONAL because there isn't enough data. It's an unproven hope at this point, and the hope has been fading more and more.

Studies so far haven't shown a benefit for HCQ in mild cases either. I strongly suspect that when all studies are in, including the Columbia University prophylaxis one is in (the quintessential one that hits the virus before replication), the conclusion will be that HCQ is not active against the SARS-CoV-2 at all, in any stage of the disease.

It's certainly active in-vitro... which accounts for very little, other than helping with hypothesis generation.

But it is looking more and more doubtful that HCQ helps in-vivo, for mild, moderate, or severe infections.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/15/20 04:06 AM

Peak Prosperity "This Generation's Polio" 15 minutes into the video, they report on a multihospital retrospective study in which patients received HCN + Azithromycin with zinc or without zinc. A lot of the comparison factors did not show much difference. But these did:

..................Zinc.................No Zinc...........p
..................N=411................N=521

needed ICU........9.2%..................15.7%...........0.004
needed vent.......8.0%..................16.5%...........0.014
Expired/hospice..13.1%..................22.8%..........<0.0001
Exp/hos in ICU...73.6%..................74.4%...........0.934
Exp/hos sans ICU..6.9%..................13.2%...........0.004


This shows pretty conclusively that the combination of HCN + zinc makes a huge difference when you give it to patients not sick enough to need the ICU yet. It also shows that it has very little effect on patients that need the ICU.
===============================================================

At 25 minutes into the video, they also report on a paper on Ivermectin:

Administered once at 150 mcg/kg compared to patients with no Ivermectin. N=704 in each arm, matched for everything they could think of.

''''''''''''''''Ivermectin..........Control..........p
Dead with Vent.....7.3%...............21.3%
Overall Death......1.4%................8.5%.......<0.0001

They show the original paper URLs on the left, so you can go read the papers if that's your desire.

HCN+zinc and Ivermectine have totally different mechanisms, so it would probably be possible to use them together. Both are extremely cheap and widely available, especially in the Third World where one is a common anti-malarial and the other is an anti-parasite drug.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/15/20 05:08 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Peak Prosperity "This Generation's Polio" 15 minutes into the video, they report on a multihospital retrospective study in which patients received HCN + Azithromycin with zinc or without zinc. A lot of the comparison factors did not show much difference. But these did:

..................Zinc.................No Zinc...........p
..................N=411................N=521

needed ICU........9.2%..................15.7%...........0.004
needed vent.......8.0%..................16.5%...........0.014
Expired/hospice..13.1%..................22.8%..........<0.0001
Exp/hos in ICU...73.6%..................74.4%...........0.934
Exp/hos sans ICU..6.9%..................13.2%...........0.004


This shows pretty conclusively that the combination of HCN + zinc makes a huge difference when you give it to patients not sick enough to need the ICU yet. It also shows that it has very little effect on patients that need the ICU.
===============================================================

At 25 minutes into the video, they also report on a paper on Ivermectin:

Administered once at 150 mcg/kg compared to patients with no Ivermectin. N=704 in each arm, matched for everything they could think of.

''''''''''''''''Ivermectin..........Control..........p
Dead with Vent.....7.3%...............21.3%
Overall Death......1.4%................8.5%.......<0.0001

They show the original paper URLs on the left, so you can go read the papers if that's your desire.

HCN+zinc and Ivermectine have totally different mechanisms, so it would probably be possible to use them together. Both are extremely cheap and widely available, especially in the Third World where one is a common anti-malarial and the other is an anti-parasite drug.


Well, but then, you have this:

https://ard.bmj.com/content/early/2020/05/07/annrheumdis-2020-217690

For me, THAT's the nail in the coffin. If patients with lupus or RA who were already on HCQ are not faring any better when they catch COVID-19, so much for your theory that early use is beneficial.

Quote:
Notably, 21.1% (121/573) of all reported patients with rheumatic disease in the registry were treated with an antimalarial prior to onset of COVID-19, yet 49.6% (60/121) required hospitalisation. In patients with SLE, frequency of hospitalisation with COVID-19 did not differ between individuals using an antimalarial versus non-users (55% (16/29) vs 57% (29/51), p=ns; &#967;2 test). In patients with lupus, escalation to maximum level of care (non-invasive ventilation, invasive ventilation or extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO)) was required regardless of HCQ use


As I suspected, HCQ is NOT effective for COVID-19, regardless of the phase of the illness. It is not prophylactic and it does not help even in early phases.

Maybe what is helping in your data is the zinc.

What, in your data, guarantees that HCQ is making any difference whatsoever? It's a combination treatment...

The paper I just posted indicates pretty CLEARLY that this medication doesn't help (which is consistent with what we're saying pretty much everywhere).

I suspect that the Columbia study will confirm it.

Quote:
patients with lupus—even if they are using an antimalarial such as HCQ as baseline therapy—can develop SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe COVID-19 at similar frequency as lupus patients not on antimalarials.


And here is what I've been telling you forever, that in-vitro doesn't translate to in-vivo, automatically:

Quote:
a putative role for HCQ in the treatment of COVID-19 has been suggested by its antiviral effect in cell culture systems. Given the assumptions made when moving from a cell-based model to a complex in vivo system, in vitro potency cannot be expected to translate into in vivo efficacy,


And in vivo HCQ doesn't seem to inhibit viral replication, either:

Quote:
Notably, results from an open-label, randomised, controlled trial using doses as high as HCQ 1200mg for 3 days (followed by a maintenance dose of 800mg daily for 2–3 weeks) did not suggest efficacy of HCQ in suppressing viral replication.


My friend, I've been telling you... hydroxychloroquine just doesn't work for COVID-19, regardless of the phase of the illness. The overwhelming majority of data coming in more and more, indicates that it is a total fiasco.

This thing came from the most flawed "study" I've ever read in my professional life (which was never successfully replicated), by that idiot Professor Raoult in Marseille (who says that he doesn't believe in RCTs, LOL). Politicians jumped on it... but it doesn't work. Period, full stop.

Maybe ivermectin will help. Remdesivir certainly does modestly helps. HCQ? Nah.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/15/20 07:28 PM

Quote:
This shows pretty conclusively that the combination of HCN + zinc makes a huge difference when you give it to patients not sick enough to need the ICU yet. It also shows that it has very little effect on patients that need the ICU.


How do we know that HCQ lets zinc in through the cell membrane and that blocks virus replication? Because that has been proved with human cells in vitro, and sure enough it also works in vivo as shown in the study I quoted with p = 0.004

It's the combination of HCQ + zinc that is effective early with p = 0.004. To bad those poor lupus and RA sufferers weren't taking any zinc. BTW, I'm not taking HCQ because it's prescription and a bit dangerous. I'm taking quercetin and zinc (below the recommended zinc safe dose) because quercetin is a zinc ionophore like HCQ, but very safe.

(Sorry, used HCN as abbreviation for hydroxychloroquine at times)

Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/15/20 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
This shows pretty conclusively that the combination of HCN + zinc makes a huge difference when you give it to patients not sick enough to need the ICU yet. It also shows that it has very little effect on patients that need the ICU.


How do we know that HCQ lets zinc in through the cell membrane and that blocks virus replication? Because that has been proved with human cells in vitro, and sure enough it also works in vivo as shown in the study I quoted with p = 0.004

It's the combination of HCQ + zinc that is effective early with p = 0.004. To bad those poor lupus and RA sufferers weren't taking any zinc. BTW, I'm not taking HCQ because it's prescription and a bit dangerous. I'm taking quercetin and zinc (below the recommended zinc safe dose) because quercetin is a zinc ionophore like HCQ, but very safe.

(Sorry, used HCN as abbreviation for hydroxychloroquine at times)



I'm not sure about pretty conclusive, buddy.

Show me a study with:

One arm with HCQ alone.
One arm with HCQ + zinc.
One arm with zinc alone.
One arm with placebo.

THEN and only then, we'd have a pretty conclusive answer, if the arm with HCQ + Zinc performed better than all other three, to a statistically significant level.

----------

But we are doing the same. I'm taking quercetin 250mg twice a day and zinc 30mg once a day, and Vitamin D 5,000 units per day, vitamin C 500mg twice a day.

And I'll not be taking HCQ either. I'm totally and utterly unconvinced that HCQ has any effect whatsoever against the SARS-CoV-2, and it sure can prolong the QTc. I believe that the risks (significant) outweigh the benefits (none).

Look, these lupus and RA patients who were on HCQ and contracted COVID-19 at exactly the same rates of those who were not on it, and progressed to severe cases at exactly the same rates of those without it, do have zinc in their bodies. Most people have normal levels of zinc. So wouldn't you expect at least some advantage of HCQ in that situation? The fact that none has been found, now in multiple studies, doesn't bode well for its efficacy against COVID-19.

Just today, the Health Minister of Brazil, a doctor, quit because the idiotic president there, Bolsonaro a.k.a. the Tropical Trump, tried to force him to recommend HCQ, and he refused saying there is no scientific evidence of its efficacy.

I mean, if YOU are so convinced of HCQ's efficacy, shouldn't you be taking it as prophilactic?

I won't. I don't think it confers a prophilactic protection, and I don't think it helps mild, moderate, or severe cases. The overwhelming majority of the evidence so far points to it being useless. I'd even question the agenda of the very few studies that indicate some hint of usefulness when all the others unanimously show that it doesn't work.

You do know that this has now evolved into a politically-charged issue, right? Now, President Maduro of Venezuela is pushing it too.

It reminds me of issues such as research on racial differences. You find right wing-biased papers insisting with racial differences in the human species, while left wing papers will show that the human species doesn't really have races, biologically speaking, but just cosmetic differences (a position I believe in, based on histocompatibility data, in the fact that your black neighbor can be a better kidney donor for you than one of your white relatives.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/16/20 12:25 AM


NOVA did a great show on Covid-19 this week. Worth an hour of your time. smile
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/16/20 02:35 AM

I would love to see that study done right. All of these retrospective studies are just data mining. As I said before, if nobody did the effective thing, then you can't find it by data mining. But in that study quoted in my first table, they DID do the effective thing. And when they mined the data, they DID find it.

That effective thing was to divide patients into not so sick versus very sick groups when first seen, then they gave one group within those HCQ + zinc, versus the other arm who did not receive zinc supplements. For people who were not so sick when first given treatment, those who got zinc with their HCQ were around half as likely to die as the people who got no zinc. p = 0.004 means something really happened. You can't ignore p = 0.004. It is not proof, but it's highly suggestive.

Is there any such suggestive data for quercetin? Just in vitro data that shows it is an effective zinc ionophore, as far as I know.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/16/20 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I would love to see that study done right. All of these retrospective studies are just data mining. As I said before, if nobody did the effective thing, then you can't find it by data mining. But in that study quoted in my first table, they DID do the effective thing. And when they mined the data, they DID find it.

That effective thing was to divide patients into not so sick versus very sick groups when first seen, then they gave one group within those HCQ + zinc, versus the other arm who did not receive zinc supplements. For people who were not so sick when first given treatment, those who got zinc with their HCQ were around half as likely to die as the people who got no zinc. p = 0.004 means something really happened. You can't ignore p = 0.004. It is not proof, but it's highly suggestive.

Is there any such suggestive data for quercetin? Just in vitro data that shows it is an effective zinc ionophore, as far as I know.


Yes, you can ignore it if you have no control and no paired randomization. It's possible that it is just a fluke or due to some other still unknown intervening factor.

Like I said, proof only comes from RCTs. Nothing short of that delivers proof.

Like I said, what you are saying could be explained if the active principle is the zinc rather than the HCQ.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/16/20 09:11 PM

Quote:
what you are saying could be explained if the active principle is the zinc rather than the HCQ.


Quite true. I don't think anybody has looked at that. That would be hilarious, if it was true. Zinc is even cheaper than HCQ, and probably far less dangerous. I'd love to see a four-way random double blind study: Placebo, zinc, HCQ + zinc, and quercetin + zinc. That would be incredible. And also start treatment upon first symptoms.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/18/20 04:45 PM

Best news ever! Moderna's vaccine resulted in effective antibody levels in all 45 human participants in their trial. They are planning phase III for July. We may have a winner, folks! The mRNA route is showing robust efficacy, with the higher dose stimulating a level of antibodies superior to even the people who have recovered from the live virus!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/moderna-vaccine-human-trial-produces-133828334.html
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/18/20 07:48 PM

I think I am interested in the lysol, UV and bleach trials. I mean Mr Trump has to be right. After all he knows more than the doctors.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/18/20 07:50 PM

On a different note .... I have been sticking pins in a COVID voodoo doll .... and so far that seems to be working. Maybe Mr Trump does not know about this very effective therapeutic?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/18/20 11:17 PM

Trump says he is taking hydroxychloroquine and zinc. He claims it's prophylactic. I doubt that very much. The next month should be interesting.

But here's why he is lying: He's says he is taking one pill per day. But he would have to be taking two, because there is no such pill as "hydroxychloroquine plus zinc".
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/18/20 11:33 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Trump says he is taking hydroxychloroquine and zinc. He claims it's prophylactic. I doubt that very much. The next month should be interesting.


Trump lies. I'm sure he is not taking HCQ. He just wants to save face, given his ill-fated advice "you have nothing to lose, take it" being contradicted by more and more scientific studies.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/18/20 11:36 PM

I see that the Eastern Virginia Medical School protocol got updated and now includes Famotidine 20 to 40mg per day as optional prophylactic, and Ivermectin 150 to 200 micrograms per kilogram, single dose, in case of symptomatic patient at home. They also added all the references.

https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_public/d...19_Protocol.pdf
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/19/20 12:05 AM

Some of the ivermectine results have been pretty spectacular. This has the potential to save millions of lives in the Third World, were this stuff is a pretty common treatment for parasites.

Hopefully, people will not just run out a get a box of Heartgard for Dogs and eat 40 or so. You should be able to get a prescription from your doctor that is more precise and easier to get down.

VERY IMPORTANT: DO NOT TAKE any other formulation like Heartgard-plus with other drugs in it. 40 of those could kill you. It would be like aquarium cleaner all over again.

From a scientific viewpoint, this means that SARS-COV2 can't succeed unless it gets into the nucleus and screws up the cell's defense mechanisms.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/19/20 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Trump says he is taking hydroxychloroquine and zinc. He claims it's prophylactic. I doubt that very much. The next month should be interesting.

But here's why he is lying: He's says he is taking one pill per day. But he would have to be taking two, because there is no such pill as "hydroxychloroquine plus zinc".


I am convinced that *45's handlers just threw their hands up and decided to give him "Pirin tablets" and tell him it was HCQ.

What's a Pirin tablet, you ask?
"Let's go to the VIDEO TAPE!" LOL ROTFMOL

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/19/20 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

But here's why he is lying: He's says he is taking one pill per day. But he would have to be taking two, because there is no such pill as "hydroxychloroquine plus zinc".


My God, Trump isn't even good at lying anymore.
We could have had a better president with THIS GUY:



Can we draft Joe Isuzu?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/19/20 08:09 PM

Quote:
This has the potential to save millions of lives in the Third World


Perhaps it's best we just let them go...their lives will never be anything but miserable anyway. They're already denied the simplest medicines and rely on rudimentary folk remedies and the internet for all their health needs. A well designed virus would have swept the world's ghettos clean...while totally avoiding affluent neighborhoods.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/22/20 07:06 PM

Huge retrospective study published in Lancet:
Quote:

Researchers analyzed data from 671 hospitals on six continents, involving just over 96,000 patients hospitalized from Dec. 20 to April 14 who tested positive for the coronavirus. About 15,000 received some form of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine.

“We did not observe any benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine (when used alone or in combination with a macrolide) on in-hospital outcomes, when initiated early after diagnosis of COVID-19,” the researchers concluded. “Each of the drug regimens of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine alone or in combination with a macrolide was associated with an increased hazard for clinically significant occurrence of ventricular arrhythmias and increased risk of in-hospital death with COVID-19.”


I downloaded the article and searched for "zinc". Didn't appear anywhere. It's nice to have a third replication of the VA and Colombia studies that hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine without zinc does no good. There have been some speculations that HCQ by itself might change the pH inside the cell, make the receptor less likely to bind to the virus, and such. Good to know those things have little effect. I would have tossed the very toxic chloroquine data myself, but that's their call.

Some of these studies and press pronouncements are going to look pretty stupid if HCQ + zinc actually does help. Even Trump said he's taking HCQ + zinc.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 05/22/20 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Huge retrospective study published in Lancet:
Quote:

Researchers analyzed data from 671 hospitals on six continents, involving just over 96,000 patients hospitalized from Dec. 20 to April 14 who tested positive for the coronavirus. About 15,000 received some form of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine.

“We did not observe any benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine (when used alone or in combination with a macrolide) on in-hospital outcomes, when initiated early after diagnosis of COVID-19,” the researchers concluded. “Each of the drug regimens of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine alone or in combination with a macrolide was associated with an increased hazard for clinically significant occurrence of ventricular arrhythmias and increased risk of in-hospital death with COVID-19.”


I downloaded the article and searched for "zinc". Didn't appear anywhere. It's nice to have a third replication of the VA and Colombia studies that hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine without zinc does no good. There have been some speculations that HCQ by itself might change the pH inside the cell, make the receptor less likely to bind to the virus, and such. Good to know those things have little effect. I would have tossed the very toxic chloroquine data myself, but that's their call.

Some of these studies and press pronouncements are going to look pretty stupid if HCQ + zinc actually does help. Even Trump said he's taking HCQ + zinc.


Again, maybe it's just the zinc that is helping. I'm very skeptical that HCQ and CQ help because like I said, many patients do have normal levels of zinc so there is some zinc in the cells therefore if HCQ and CQ in the presence of zinc helps, we should see at least some benefit. The truth is, more and more, study after study, the benefit of HCQ and CQ is set as ZERO, NONE, NADA, even in initial phases of the disease.

With the thousands of researchers looking at it and the thousands of patients in studies, if HCQ and CQ had any traction whatsoever, we'd have seen it by now.

This is a leaking boat that will sink.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 06/27/20 07:09 AM

A couple of interesting papers came out in the last few days. One reported on ICU patients given anakinra, an interleukin 1 blocker. They had much better survival than patients not given it. Interleukin 1 is a strong contributor toward cytokine storm. The other paper reported on tocilizumab, an interleukin 6 blocker. Again, much better survival. Interleukin 6 is another signalling component of cytokine storm. The good thing is these are both useful treatments for seriously ill patients. The interesting thing is they are both prescribed to treat rheumatoid arthritis, like hydroxychloroquine! Small world, isn't it?

The MATH+ Protocol has actually added both to their Salvage Treatments section. This for the patients still declining when their full protocol has been used. These guys are right on top of new information coming out.

Another paper from France looked at over three thousand patients, some of whom received very early HCQ and azithromycin, versus others that did not. I did not track down the actual paper, but they did mention declining blood zinc values. Very significant benefit with the HCQ. But of course HCQ is kryptonite now, so nobody in American will pay any attention.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 06/27/20 11:35 AM

Here’s a public service announcement that I ran across yesterday:

Quote:
Did you know the FDA just approved a treatment that reduces your chance of getting COVID-19 by 5X?

Its trade name is called Wearamaskasshole. Side effects include mild inconvenience, possible victim complex, fear of people thinking you are a sheeple, being ostracized by your anti-vax plandemic bros, and the power to stop your own asymptomatic transmission as this country stubbornly dives right on into that second wave.

Check with your doctor, or really anyone, to see if Wearamaskasshole is right for you.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 06/28/20 02:28 AM

:applaud:
Posted by: jgw

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 06/29/20 08:50 PM

Here's something I came across:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/27/health/co...ness/index.html

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 06/30/20 06:12 PM

Moderna is just about to start Phase III.

Using anti-inflammatory drugs against Covid-19 is tricky: You don't want to give them too soon, when the immune system is still killing virus. You don't want to give them too late, when the storm has done a lot of damage. There are even cases where the victim has no infection symptoms, but then a few weeks later is very sick or dead from the autoimmune response.

Just like antivirals: They only work while the virus is replicating. Wait too long, and that phase is already done. Then the drug does no good.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/02/20 06:22 PM

Apparently the Chinese are going to use their army to start their phase III tests (and may have actually started with this). I think I read someplace that China has promised to give their vaccine away if it works. They have an army of 2.8 million to test with.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/02/20 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Here’s a public service announcement that I ran across yesterday:

Quote:
Did you know the FDA just approved a treatment that reduces your chance of getting COVID-19 by 5X?

Its trade name is called Wearamaskasshole. Side effects include mild inconvenience, possible victim complex, fear of people thinking you are a sheeple, being ostracized by your anti-vax plandemic bros, and the power to stop your own asymptomatic transmission as this country stubbornly dives right on into that second wave.

Check with your doctor, or really anyone, to see if Wearamaskasshole is right for you.

Bow
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/02/20 07:56 PM

Using their army for phase III testing is perfectly reasonable in a society like communist China. They are there to serve the state, with their lives if necessary, and the state's biggest need at the moment is subjects for a phase III trial.

Doctors wouldn't consider it ethical in the West, but in our armed forces people get "volunteered" for hazardous stuff all the time. And it's probably not very hazardous, since they already finished phase II. I bet contracting Covid-19 is a lot more hazardous.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/03/20 07:41 PM

Apparently the Chinese have also installed testing in Brazil as well (no shortage of infected there). I think that the Oxford people have also taken their vaccine phase 3 to Brazil as well.

I don't know how long they have been there with their tests but it doesn't seem to have reduced the Brazil disaster in any significant way - yet...........

more links:
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/chinas-covid-19-complex-to-produce-over-100m-vaccine/1898377

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/02/healt...ndup/index.html

https://www.popsci.com/story/health/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-development/

https://www.click2houston.com/news/local...ing-in-houston/
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/03/20 08:12 PM

Brazil seems to be a terrific resource for vaccine developers. Ideally, you would test the effectiveness of a vaccine in Phase three by challenging the vaccinated with the virus, but that would be unethical (if not criminal). Some groups have done that with monkeys and proved their vaccines work.

Just run your Phase III trial in Brazil and the challenge happens automatically.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/04/20 05:14 PM

Yep, and between the West, and China, they will need them all for their phase 3 tests which, apparently, China is actually starting right now. Not only that but Brazil itself REALLY needs the tests because, if even one works, it will save the lives of thousands of Brazilians which is also a good thing.

Kindofa good thing!

Now, if we could actually get tests that work better, can be done at home (don't need labs), and are easily available and will check not only if one is infected but also checks for anti-bodies to prove they have weathered the storm (thought I would throw a little bit of wishful thinking into the mix).
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/04/20 06:40 PM

The active infection tests are probably as good as they can be, and that is "not very good". They can detect the presence of the virus RNA, but are plagued by false negatives. This is not because the test is faulty. It's because there was little RNA where they swabbed. Rectal swabs would probably work a lot better, but nobody wants to do that! (Medical people AND patients.) They also can return positive results when all the active virus is gone and the patient is shedding old virus RNA fragments. To make a test that can tell the difference would require live cell cultures and cost thousands of dollars per test.

The antibody tests suck as well, not because of the tests (assuming a good brand) but because so many recovered victims do not make a lot of IgG antibodies. The full adaptive immune response takes a while and apparently lots of people clear the virus before the B-cells start making those antibodies. It does not mean they are not immune: There are memory B-cells that might know how to make antibodies, but never really got stimulated. We don't know and we don't know how long they will remain active.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/07/20 06:02 AM



60 Minutes said the FDA is now scrambling to pull ineffective tests off the market. Another Trump Administration fck-up.

coffee
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/07/20 07:01 AM

Well, there are some pretty lousy tests. But even with very good ones, there are still sampling problems. That long nasal swab is supposed to hurt like a bitch, but very few nurses want to do that. Mine just tickled a bit. No wonder it was negative. It was also about 10 days after first symptoms, so there may not have been any virus present in my throat by then.

About all tests can tell you is if you have a positive PCR test and then another positive test a few days later, you do have it. If you have a top-quality antibody test (like Abbott or Euroimmun) with a positive result, then you do have antibodies.

Negative test results for either PCR or antibody don't tell you anything: Maybe you have it, maybe you don't. Maybe you had it, or maybe not.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/22/20 11:43 PM

Rather stunning news today from UK: A company growing interferon beta has done a private study with placebo arm that showed their "drug" gave proven Covid-19 patients a 79% improvement in terms of needing ventilator or death. It's an inhaled mist dose that costs about $20 EU per day. Treatment is typically six days, and it works in patients at all phases of the disease.

I quote "drug" because it's actually cultured in a bacteria or yeast vat with the human interferon beta gene transplanted. That's why it's so cheap. Therapeutics are really getting good. By the time we have vaccines, we may not need them much.

This interferon actually works in a similar manner to ivermectin. SARS-COV2 sends some protein into the host cell nucleus to shut off the cell's manufacture of interferon. That makes the cell and surrounding cells more able to be infected, because interferon does a bunch of good stuff for defending against viruses. Ivermectin prevents the bad protein from entering the nucleus.

The interferon treatment supplies the interferon the cell would have manufactured normally.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/23/20 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Rather stunning news today from UK: A company growing interferon beta has done a private study with placebo arm that showed their "drug" gave proven Covid-19 patients a 79% improvement in terms of needing ventilator or death. It's an inhaled mist dose that costs about $20 EU per day. Treatment is typically six days, and it works in patients at all phases of the disease.

I quote "drug" because it's actually cultured in a bacteria or yeast vat with the human interferon beta gene transplanted. That's why it's so cheap. Therapeutics are really getting good. By the time we have vaccines, we may not need them much.

This interferon actually works in a similar manner to ivermectin. SARS-COV2 sends some protein into the host cell nucleus to shut off the cell's manufacture of interferon. That makes the cell and surrounding cells more able to be infected, because interferon does a bunch of good stuff for defending against viruses. Ivermectin prevents the bad protein from entering the nucleus.

The interferon treatment supplies the interferon the cell would have manufactured normally.

Very fascinating.

This past weekend on NPR, one of the Saturday shows' hosts' wondered how did we get here from there with the Covid-19 virus.

One the doctor/scientists interviewed likened the virus to a predator movie. The Covid-19 virus is dead, non-living. It has proteins on its outer shell that attaches itself to host cells. Once the Covid is able to attach itself, it "wakes-up" the Covid virus and becomes a living organism able to take over the infected cell's genetic material and infect and duplicate.

Hmm
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/23/20 03:06 AM

The zombie apocalypse.

Imagine now there is no anti-body protection ...
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/23/20 08:16 AM

SARS-COV2 is indisputable evidence for evolution. It isn't alive. It's just a very complex 30000+ strand of RNA with all the instructions for making more of itself. Nothing but chemicals, put together in just the right way to be so effective. Nothing but evolution made it. Mutation and Natural Selection, again and again. Every step-wise little improvement went on to reproduce, and out-compete the unimproved version.

I think it is pushing us toward The Singularity. What we are learning will lead to defeating every virus. Cancer will lead to immortality. Lethal genetic diseases will lead to the ability to freely turn on and off or modify any gene in our bodies. Alzheimer's will lead to the ability to upload our minds into android bodies so we can explore the galaxy.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/23/20 03:29 PM

or it could be the hand of God saying humans are a failed experiment .... let's see if they do better next lap
Posted by: Greger

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/23/20 04:52 PM

The one thing evolution has always led to is extinction.

It's not the hand of god, Mr. Porter, it's the reality of science.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/23/20 06:16 PM

i guess i should have included some sarcasm emojis ... imagine human hubris in the Greek sense and the irony of my statement of the hand of God. Are humans deserving of second chance? Should we be reminded of those who can not remember the past?

The recent failures of humans to remove itself from the dung heap of history is discouraging. Will we remain in this cycle?

Had there been no K-Pg extinction event humans may not have made it. I was rooting for the dinosaurs.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/23/20 06:55 PM

Back then humans were not unlike rats. If there is any mammal I'd deem most likely to survive the current extinction event it would be those clever and adaptable little rodents. Perhaps as they evolve into the next "intelligent" species they will become better than us...
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/23/20 08:07 PM

There's no reason to think evolved rats would be better than us. We have been successful mainly because we are the meanest SOBs around. We can hunt in packs, create traps, and literally run down any other animal on the planet. And that's when we only had stone tools! That's the very nature of Natural Selection. If we all left Earth or became extinct (probably by our own hand), what ever species evolved into the top of the food chain would be just as bad-ass.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/24/20 01:28 AM

Will the white rats hate the black rats? Will rats with different beliefs persecute rats they disagree with? Will rats pollute the oceans? Will they change the climate of the very planet which supports them until it no longer supports them?

Or will they live hand in hand with nature and other rats resorting to cannibalism only when food is scarce?

Only time will tell...
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/24/20 09:41 PM

I think we will have to leave before they can gain self awareness. And they seem to be damned successful with their current level of intelligence.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/29/20 05:11 AM

Interesting article by a professor of epidemiology at Yale School of Public Health

Covid Drug Exists

Quote:
I am usually accustomed to advocating for positions within the mainstream of medicine, so have been flummoxed to find that, in the midst of a crisis, I am fighting for a treatment that the data fully support but which, for reasons having nothing to do with a correct understanding of the science, has been pushed to the sidelines. As a result, tens of thousands of patients with COVID-19 are dying unnecessarily. Fortunately, the situation can be reversed easily and quickly.

I am referring, of course, to the medication hydroxychloroquine.


If we do find that it works, is Trump suddenly going to be the hero? We would certainly never hear the end of it from him. Even if it does, though, we now have treatments that work better than any of the HCQ positive result papers have claimed. Like Vitamin D, ivermectin and beta interferon, and the MATH+ protocol for people who do get sick. Funny, I listened to an interview of Dr. Paul Merick who invented MATH+. They have substituted quercetin for HCQ in the protocol, but he confessed it was all political (and he has some HCQ at home in case he gets sick!)
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/29/20 09:28 AM


I keep reading and hearing on the news that HCQ doesn't work. Dr. Fauci says it doesn't, every doctor on NPR says it doesn't.
So what's the dealio?

Hmm
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/29/20 01:13 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
If we do find that it works, is Trump suddenly going to be the hero?

Trump asked Dr. Stella Immanuel what he could do to save his failing "presidency", and she told him, "Ooh Eeh Ooh Ah Aah Ting Tang Walla Walla Bing Bang."

Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/29/20 04:13 PM




Quote:
Critics have long argued that the Food and Drug Administration authorized emergency use of hydroxychloroquine in March on thin and questionable data. The agency ultimately revoked those authorities in June after a series of rigorous clinical trials showed no benefit from the drug in treating severely ill Covid-19 patients.

- Politico
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/29/20 08:07 PM

I have used the end all meme ... space aliens. It is the answer to all questions which apparently have no answer. And everyone responds quietly with ... o yeah ... of course ... yep ... that's right. Discussion closed.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/29/20 08:31 PM

I guess Merrick and Zelenko believe almost all medical scientists are involved in a conspiracy against HCQ. What else would explain why study after study result in insignificant efficacy?

It turns out there is a group of conservatives who believe the medical profession as a whole are conspiring to keep people sick instead of curing them. Why else do they treat symptoms and not cure the disease???
Posted by: Irked

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/29/20 10:02 PM

Love the vid, Rick.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/29/20 10:04 PM

Hey, I'm all for science, having worked in medical research myself. But as far as I can tell, all the published papers have show so far is that HCQ given late doesn't work (because Covid-19 is really an autoimmune disease at that stage), given early without zinc doesn't work (because zinc is the thing that stops viral replication, HCQ is just the vehicle), it's very dangerous according to a retracted Lancet paper using fake data, and worse. The one study in which they said they had no results of significance, had everything self-reported and very few cases of actual Covid-19, so it doesn't tell us anything. There have been a few retrospective studies in which HCQ + zinc was given at the first sign of exposure or symptom, and it looked like it cut the mortality in half. Many doctors in many countries have reported using it with a lot of success in their own practice.

That's the kind of evidence that leads to full random blind trials. Unfortunately, those trials did not test the hypothesis that early HCQ (in a normal dose) plus zinc lowered mortality. Instead we got absolute crap like the Brazilian study that gave everybody a twenty-fold overdose and had to be aborted because it was killing people.

Notice scientists say there is no evidence HCQ is efficacious. That's right, there is none because the way they tried to use it does not work. Even Trump knew it had to be given early with zinc, and he's one of the dumbest people around. Show me a random blind trial where it's given early with zinc, and I'll be the first to say it doesn't work.

Meanwhile, Dr. Stella Immanuel is a wackjob and should not have a medical license.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/30/20 12:12 AM

Looks like Tocilizumab doesn't help Covid-19 patients, although a lot of people are paying a lot of money for it. Some random blind clinical trials have failed to show any benefit. It does work against a cytokine storm caused by some other diseases, as an interleukin-6 monoclonal antibody. But apparently, not Covid-19. The manufacturer makes no claims for it against Covid-19. (TrialSiteNews)

There are other interleukins that contribute to cytokine storm, so specifically knocking out IL-6 may not make any difference. (my opinion)
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/30/20 03:44 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Meanwhile, Dr. Stella Immanuel is a wackjob and should not have a medical license.

Two things to ponder since 2016:

1. Any dumbass can be President
2. Should the bar be that low?

Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/30/20 03:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Irked
Love the vid, Rick.

Loggy actually posted the video. smile
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/30/20 04:23 AM

So you're saying Dr Fauci is too stupid to comprehend clinical trials? or are you saying he is in Big Pharma's pocket. I mean, if your belief is the trials and anecdotal evidence is more valid than what Dr Fauci is seeing, then there can be no other conclusion than the above.

So why is Dr Fauci the director of Infectious etc? Is he a part of the swamp?
Posted by: Irked

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/30/20 04:30 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Irked
Love the vid, Rick.

Loggy actually posted the video. smile


Thanks, Rick!

Sorry about that, logtroll. blush
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/30/20 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Irked
Sorry about that, logtroll. blush

Never herd of such a thing... I am cowed... udderly devastated... think I'll hide... too much at steak... my feelings are hamburger... am I milking it too much?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/30/20 08:37 PM

Quote:
So you're saying Dr Fauci is too stupid to comprehend clinical trials?


No, not at all. Dr. Fauci does not design or run clinical trials. He's told the truth, as known at the time he makes a statement. (With the possible exception of the "masks are useless" fiasco. But even then, I bet he said "Masks don't protect you." Which is fairly true, but fails to mention that they protect everybody else from you if you are infected. But that is forgivable because we could just maintain isolation, but health care workers really needed the N95 masks to do their jobs.

Look at what Dr. Fauchi has said: "There is no proof HCQ is effective." That's true, if you consider proof to be p<=0.5 in a random double-blind clinical trial. Which most researchers consider to be actual proof, though there is a 5% or less chance of that result occurring by chance.

What he has NOT said is: "There is proof that early HCQ in a reasonable dose with zinc, does not work." He is just being conventionally conservative in the spirit of "First of all, do no harm."

But there is something to be said for not being so conservative in light of one person dying each minute in the US from Covid-19. Personally, I think under these circumstances, it would be smarter to look at what various hospitals and doctors are doing and use protocols that are getting good results. For example, the RECOVERY trial in England tried dexamethasone on half their patients and no steroids on the other half. That's a valid proof clinical trial. But it ignores the fact that thousands of patients with clear inflammation markers in their blood received no steroids, even though steroids are the standard of care for inflammation. More than 40% of them died because a standard drug was withheld for the sake of the trial.

But for months, the MATH+ protocol was getting MUCH better results using methylprednisolone (another steroid). And not just 5% better: More like 10 times better.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/31/20 03:49 AM

Quote:
But for months, the MATH+ protocol was getting MUCH better results
So ... you are saying he is stupid.

So with 40 years of experience as a leading epidemiologist Dr Fauci should be able to read a clinical study and understand what it says and does not say. Now with that in mind, he would also know if there is anything which should be considered when designing a study he should make those recommendations i.e. early use etc.

My take is he does not see that any constraint you have in mind would make a difference based on current results, ergo he must be stupid. But then so is Dr Birx and Dr Redfield ... as well as WHO. I can only conclude all of these folks are either stupid (because they have not considered anecdotal evidence as relevant) or they are all bought off by Big Pharma.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/31/20 04:38 AM

Well, we know WHO is run by politicians. I'm not saying they are stupid, but they did cancel all their hydroxychloroquine trials because of the very dubious Lancet paper that was retracted a few days later for using fake data. Maybe these other doctors have seen some study data I haven't seen. They are certainly way more qualified than me. All I'm saying is I can read journal and preprint papers and understand them, I know basic statistics, and I have a pretty good grasp of the situation. And I have not seen proof.

But there are a huge number of ongoing trials. Sooner or later one of those will give us a definite answer. But hydroxychloroquine is such a politicized topic, I bet it doesn't happen until after the election.

It may be moot anyway: Quercetin plus zinc may be just as effective, and quercetin is an over-the-counter food supplement. Seems HCQ takes a few days to become available after you start taking it, so you might miss the time window in which it did some good. Quercetin has no dangerous side effects. I've been taking it every day for months now.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/31/20 04:59 PM

This morning I heard that there is evidence that some have a built in immunity to Covid-19 that is related to T-cells. Apparently this is known but not tested for so nobody really knows how many have this immunity.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/30/health/t-cells-coronavirus-study-wellness/index.html
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-immunity
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 07/31/20 07:47 PM

As I hypothesized months ago, the researchers who looked at T-cell activation thought it was from previous exposure to one or more of those other four corona viruses that circulate around the world as common colds. They don't have the SARS-COV2 spike protein, but they do have other antigens very similar or identical to SARS-COV2 antigens. The reason I hypothesized that is because early antibody test makers warned users a positive test could mean they had been exposed to antigens on one of the other four corona viruses. There is no reason to assume somebody could react to those antigens and NOT have some immunity to SARS-COV2.

So that means all the so-called "false positive" antibody tests are not really false. They do mean you have some immunity. They just don't tell you it was SARS-COV2.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 08/01/20 06:46 PM

I suspect, when this is over, that we will know a lot more about this stuff than we thought we knew before it. So, all in all, if we survive, there will have been a lot of contributions to it all. The trick is in the surviving, I think.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 08/02/20 06:30 PM

I have been thinking about this. Why is the work of Harvey A. Risch, MD, PhD simply being ignored. He explained, for instance, why the tests didn't work - they didn't understand how to do it right! (at least that's what I got from the article).

So, does this mean that the anti-Trumps are so dedicated that they would simply ignore the drug because Trump likes it? If that is true then the left should examine the old phrase that goes something like; "cutting of your nose to spite your face".
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 08/03/20 09:45 PM

I'm not sure anybody's work is being ignored, so much as just being swamped by so much information on the internet. The gold standard of medical knowledge is the random double-blind trial peer-reviewed and then published in a major scientific journal. That all takes about as long as we have even known about the virus, much less how long it has actually been here in the US as a pandemic.

Considering the urgency, good and bad information is being published on pre-print servers, the internet, the TV and cable news, tweets, facebook, etc. Usually with no peer review, and often it's just hypothesis or based on in vitro experiments.

FDA has had a "compassionate use" program that permits the use of experimental unproven drugs for dying patients for years. They did authorize use for drugs like remdesivir and HCQ, but until a couple of months in nobody realized that giving antivirals to dying patients is useless. This is because nobody recognized that Covid-19 is actually two different diseases: The viral infection, and then the sometimes lethal autoimmune response to it.

So those early trials were designed around that compassionate-use idea that giving antiviral drugs to dying patients was reasonable. When they were done, they gave proof that the drug did not work! Because of the inherent selection bias of candidates who were sickest for the trials, it looked like HCQ was actually doing harm. Now we know that the autoimmune clots do the harm by blocking coronary arteries.

The trial process is like a supertanker: Huge momentum. It takes a lot of time and energy to get one going and they can't turn quickly.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 - 08/04/20 07:33 PM

Right now, isolation is the best medicine.

There's enough evidence that vitamin D and zinc might favorably affect the outcome. Blood thinners might help too.

But you need to be taking them before you catch the virus.