They have names

Posted by: NW Ponderer

They have names - 06/27/19 03:37 PM

Last night in the Democratic debate Julian Castro did something really important - he used the names of the father and daughter, Oscar Alberto Martínez and his 23-month-old daughter, Angie Valeria, who drowned in the Rio Grande after having been illegally denied entry to the United States by CBP officials (the family arrived at Puerta México international bridge in Matamoros Sunday planning to seek asylum, but they were told it was closed and they would have to return the following day.)

I've seen the picture (it's unavoidable) of the bodies of Oscar and his daughter, washed ashore downriver, with his daughter swaddled in his t-shirt and her arm draped over his shoulder. His wife and her mother, Tania, watched them being swept away by the current. This is negligent homicide. Had they not been illegally kept from applying for asylum, they never would have taken such a drastic action.
Posted by: Greger

Re: They have names - 06/27/19 05:24 PM

But on the other hand...

What the hell are these people thinking? Hasn't anyone told them about the children in cages?

There is no freedom here and no hope for a better tomorrow. This is no shining city upon a hill.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 06/28/19 07:10 AM

People actually do get out of the cages eventually. Adults finish their relatively short jail sentence for illegal entry and some kids do get placed with legal resident sponsors or their own parents who are seeking asylum. Trump's policies are just making a mess, not a holocaust death camp.

The ironic thing is that Trump has implemented policies that make government the problem, ala Reagan! But I bet if you are immigrating from Norway, it's just a matter of filling in the right form and paying the convenience fee, and you are through the border and awaiting the paperwork to catch up with you.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: They have names - 06/28/19 02:03 PM

That is mostly, and demonstrably, true. Each year the President sets quotas for asylum seekers. It has usually ranged in the 70-90,000s.. under Trump it has been more than halved. It's not that asylum seekers don't arrive - it's that the resources to process them are not allocated. In this instance, Trump is actually following the standard Republican playbook: ignore the issue, and make it worse. The list is long - climate change, environment, income inequality, racial disparity, Palestine, South and central American poverty. Trump has merely expanded the list and followed the worst course possible.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: They have names - 06/28/19 02:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
But on the other hand...

What the hell are these people thinking? Hasn't anyone told them about the children in cages?

There is no freedom here and no hope for a better tomorrow. This is no shining city upon a hill.
That just goes to show how shirt the conditions are at home.
Posted by: Greger

Re: They have names - 06/28/19 05:29 PM

Times are tough all over.

I'm certainly sympathetic to their plight, now's just not the time to try it. South America, Central America, and Mexico make up a pretty big piece of real estate. If it was me, I'd find someplace to hole up until Trump is out.
Just like everybody here is doing.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 06/29/19 07:55 AM

When the gangs tell you your ten year old son has to join or die, "holing up" is not an option. Especially if you are poor. Then it's a question of where do you run to in order to survive. The US used to spend some money to try to make conditions better in Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador, but Trump cut that money "to punish them". Of course, like everything Trump does, it just made the situation worse.
Posted by: Greger

Re: They have names - 06/29/19 03:21 PM

So, you're telling me that walking a thousand miles to face Donald Trump's jack booted thugs and ultimately drowning in a river or dying in a gulag is their best option?

Take your ten year old and walk somewhere else until this blows over.

And for god sake steal a pool noodle somewhere before attempting to cross a river with your 2 year old...
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 07/02/19 02:52 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
When the gangs tell you your ten year old son has to join or die, "holing up" is not an option. Especially if you are poor. Then it's a question of where do you run to in order to survive. The US used to spend some money to try to make conditions better in Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador, but Trump cut that money "to punish them". Of course, like everything Trump does, it just made the situation worse.


Not for the private detention facility owners!
It is impossible to take anyone seriously about their stance on illegal immigration as long as they back a party and a President who is in favor of supporting people and corporations who are making a fortune off every single illegal that crosses over and gets caught.

Of course it will make things worse for those countries, of course it will INCREASE the flow of illegals, that's exactly what GEO, CCA and the other companies want. The moment anyone solves this so that the flow of illegals stops, these companies will be in very dire straits. That's their money you're screwing with!
Posted by: Greger

Re: They have names - 07/02/19 04:54 PM

Quote:
The migrant children in tent cities could have a suite at Trump's Washington hotel for rates lower than what the US government spends detaining them
Link
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: They have names - 07/09/19 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In this instance, Trump is actually following the standard Republican playbook: ignore the issue, and make it worse. The list is long - climate change, environment, income inequality, racial disparity, Palestine, South and central American poverty. Trump has merely expanded the list and followed the worst course possible.


So what NWP?

When democrats vote like republicans and democratic voters keep supporting same democrats what difference does it make to call out what play the president is following?

It's a small thing but raises a big point about party fealty.

Another perspective:

"While the defeat on that bill was initiated by the right wing of the Democratic caucus—an illuminating example of why it’s not enough to just elect people with (D) next to their name on the ballot—Pelosi’s capitulation to the likes of alleged car fighter Josh Gottheimer was just another in a series of a long line of surrenders. At this point, Pelosi has all but conceded that Trump can do whatever he wants, as evidenced by the fact that she’s fighting the left’s push for an impeachment inquiry seemingly just as hard as he is. When writer E. Jean Carroll came forward last month and accused Trump of raping her in a department store in the 1990s, Pelosi virtually ignored it, saying she hasn’t “paid much attention to it.” The Speaker of the House hasn’t paid much attention to a rape allegation made against the President of the United States. Got it."

The Democrats are not an opposition party
Posted by: Greger

Re: They have names - 07/09/19 05:06 PM

Quote:
The Speaker of the House hasn’t paid much attention to a rape allegation made against the President of the United States. Got it.

I didn't pay much attention to it either. Probably happened, can't be proved one way or the other. We know Trump has had a sordid history with women and this is just further proof. It was page 6 news at best.

I take much greater issue with the fact that she passed the Senate Immigration funding bill without demanding changes....
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: They have names - 07/09/19 08:03 PM

Agreed, about the border funding. Spineless, worthless.

The rape charge against a sitting president just makes for a good mile marker for these dark and colorful times.
Posted by: Greger

Re: They have names - 07/09/19 10:02 PM

Have you ever stopped for a moment to think about just how fortunate we are to be alive during this historic time? Witnessing what might well be the end of civilization? Or the beginning of a New Era...

Something like 62% of Republicans approve of Trump's treatment of immigrants. The children in cages, the terrorist tactics, the sheer horrific misery of it all. 62%....dunno where that number came from so no link. The rest of the world? Not so much...
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 07/10/19 05:14 AM

Quote:
Probably happened, can't be proved one way or the other.


This is why we have police and collect rape kits. If she had just reported this it would have saved countless lives and America's position in the world. I have little sympathy for women who do not report sexual assaults. Yes, it may be painful, but think of all the women who he will assault later!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 07/30/19 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Probably happened, can't be proved one way or the other.


This is why we have police and collect rape kits. If she had just reported this it would have saved countless lives and America's position in the world. I have little sympathy for women who do not report sexual assaults. Yes, it may be painful, but think of all the women who he will assault later!


I would normally go along with this but for firsthand personal experience where the victim was pretty much mocked by police.
In fact, it didn't happen all that long ago, in Texas, and it is still fresh in my mind.

There are just parts of the country where reporting a rape is still a risky or painful proposition and you might just be treated as the criminal and not the victim.

Traci Lords had a lot to say about the long standing tradition of high school football rapes in her home town of Steubenville, Ohio.
She was raped at age ten, and her mother was raped at age twelve, the same age as some of the recent victims. Steubenville apparently cares a lot more about the lives of their football heroes.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 07/31/19 06:38 PM

Sex by 12 is almost a family tradition around here. I looked at the sex offender website, and there's almost one per block. The website describes the crime which is usually an uncle/niece thing. Seems to be a cultural thing that came from Mexico, like Quinceaneras.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 07/31/19 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Sex by 12 is almost a family tradition around here. I looked at the sex offender website, and there's almost one per block. The website describes the crime which is usually an uncle/niece thing. Seems to be a cultural thing that came from Mexico, like Quinceaneras.


Maybe where said "uncle" is seventeen or nineteen, and still "over-eager" according to Quinceanera standards, which mark the fifteenth birthday as being officially a grown woman, which harkens back to a time when the average life expectancy was about fifty five for males in MX.

My own grandmother on the Italian side was married by fifteen in the old country and gave birth to my mother at sixteen, but she was also running an entire farmer market at fifteen, and average life expectancy for men in Rapino, Italy in the 1900's was also about 55 or so.

I don't see it as much of a stretch to either move Quinceanera age to sixteen for "emancipated" teens, or eighteen.
By the way, this might shock you, but as enlightened as we like to think we are, California is one of just a few states lacking ANY minimum age for marriage.
Minors (under the age of 18) must obtain both parental consent and a court order before they may legally tie the knot.

CA needs to enact a mandatory minimum marrying age with no exceptions.
And get the "uncles" out of the picture. Those are sex offenders indeed, incestuous ones. That's not culture, it's trailer trash in any language, even if they don't live in a trailer.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 08/02/19 01:45 AM

I would agree, but the numbers are incredible. It seems like a disconnect with American law and cultural values is taking place, if so many Hispanic men think their niece is fair game as soon as she turns 12. The girls seem to handle it: I don't see a lot of Hispanic porn stars or pole dancers. The men fair a lot worse by being put on the sex offender registry for life. I have no idea how long they go to jail. But there sure are a lot of them living among us.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 08/02/19 01:54 AM

Dershowitz had a reasonable point in his essay about age of consent, and that is that America's many state laws are insane. Prison and sex offender registry for life in one state, but the same exact activity may be perfectly legal the next state over. Every state has a different age of consent, different near-age exceptions (or not), different penalties, and so on. It's no wonder so many teens get in trouble with the law. The feds have their own rules: Sex with any sixteen year old is okay, even if you are a sex tourist. Under 16, they prosecute. Makes more sense for every state to adopt the same ages, exception, and penalties.

And for God's Sake, stop putting kids on the sex offender registry for posting or sending nude photos of themselves. It may be very very stupid, but the legal response is much more harmful than the act.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 08/02/19 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Dershowitz had a reasonable point in his essay about age of consent, and that is that America's many state laws are insane.


I think that the concept of "emancipation" should figure in as a factor. Emancipation of a person of minor age effectively makes them an adult for the purpose of agreeing to consent, making purchases, taking responsibility for their actions, etc.

That is a difficult route to follow because in cases where a minor may leave home and act in a responsible and self-sustaining manner for a number of months, if they leave without an explicit agreement, a child might be declared a runaway, or a parent may still be charged with neglect or otherwise be held responsible for consequences of the actions of their minor child.

If the minor is still living at home and is still dependent upon their parents, they're hardly what can be called "emancipated". It seems to boil down to what the courts call "best interests".
Posted by: Greger

Re: They have names - 08/02/19 04:59 PM

Society has only recently decided that the line between adult and youth philanderings be drawn so harshly. My grandmother, a properly raised Methodist girl from Indiana, married my 26 year old grandpa when she was 14. It wasn't unusual and certainly wasn't illegal.


Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 08/02/19 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Society has only recently decided that the line between adult and youth philanderings be drawn so harshly. My grandmother, a properly raised Methodist girl from Indiana, married my 26 year old grandpa when she was 14. It wasn't unusual and certainly wasn't illegal.




Understood, hence my earlier reference to my maternal grandmother.
However it can be said that fourteen or fifteen in those times was a lot different from the same numerical age today.

I guarantee you my Mamma-Mia was a lot more mature and adult at fifteen than even I was at nineteen.

Also, most girls in that time period were done with school by age twelve or fourteen, seeing as how it was considered a wasteful extravagance to educate women beyond the basic "three R's" and home economics, sewing and cooking.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 08/02/19 08:02 PM

BTW, is it even remotely possible that the Dersh may have written his Op-Ed to insert plausibility for his relationship with Epstein?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 08/02/19 09:06 PM

We have been moving the age of majority up towards 18, while at the same time girls are entering puberty at younger and younger ages. Back in grandma's time, plenty of girls did not start their periods until they were 18. Now 10 is not unusual, particularly among chunky girls. Of course, back in the depression there probably were not many chunky girls!

And sure, Dersh may have had some experiences with young girls back when he was Epstein's friend and lawyer. I don't know anything about that except I think he admitted as such. But there are some cases that are icky, but not illegal, where the girl is decades younger than the man but at or above the age of consent in that state. And there are actually more states that set their AOC at 16 than any other age.

When Rush Limbaugh was caught traveling to Puerto Rico with somebody else's Viagra prescription, their AOC was 14. Miami is crawling with hookers. I wonder why he had to go to Puerto Rico to get some, when that was the only place of Earth where you would not be charged with sex tourism by the feds for 14 and 15 year olds?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 08/02/19 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
We have been moving the age of majority up towards 18, while at the same time girls are entering puberty at younger and younger ages. Back in grandma's time, plenty of girls did not start their periods until they were 18. Now 10 is not unusual, particularly among chunky girls. Of course, back in the depression there probably were not many chunky girls!

And sure, Dersh may have had some experiences with young girls back when he was Epstein's friend and lawyer. I don't know anything about that except I think he admitted as such. But there are some cases that are icky, but not illegal, where the girl is decades younger than the man but at or above the age of consent in that state. And there are actually more states that set their AOC at 16 than any other age.

When Rush Limbaugh was caught traveling to Puerto Rico with somebody else's Viagra prescription, their AOC was 14. Miami is crawling with hookers. I wonder why he had to go to Puerto Rico to get some, when that was the only place of Earth where you would not be charged with sex tourism by the feds for 14 and 15 year olds?


Yes, there's no doubt that puberty has been assisted by all the hormonal chicken nuggets and other hormone laden foods our kids have been eating.
But come on, puberty in the 21st century isn't even an indicator of adulthood when said pubescent pre-teen is still very close to being a toddler by most emotional and intellectual measures.

Today's hikikomori teens are sometimes not even ready to grasp adult responsibilities in their twenties.
They might still be the minority but the phenomenon is growing.
We've infantilized kids for the last forty years, most of the time not even realizing it.

There's no way to compare the fourteen year olds of the early 20th century to today. Average life expectancy was twenty years shorter, adult responsibilities were pushed on them early on. Some even had to work factory jobs as young as nine.

I agree that human bodies are reaching maturity at an alarmingly young age but some fourteen year old wandering around with a Pokemon game is no comparison to a kid from eighty years ago who knew how to run a home, care for infants, hunt, fish, shoot and defend themselves against predators and adults, and earn a meager paycheck by the sweat of their brow.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 08/10/19 07:42 PM

Quote:
We've infantilized kids for the last forty years, most of the time not even realizing it.


We've sown the wind, and now we are reaping the whirlwind. We are inundated with 20 year old infants, living in mom's basement and depending on her support. Let's stop doing that.

When I was 10, I used to take the city bus about 5 miles to a magnet school, and take it to get home. The neighborhood kids would get on the same bus on Saturdays to go 10 miles to the city zoo, where we could get in free. We would also go to movies, parks, and such. We would go down in the canyon and hike despite the presence of rattlesnakes. Our parents warned us about perverts, so we were ready for any adult approaching us in a too friendly manner. Never happened.

Now parents fear to let their 18 year old kids go off to college. I've actually heard of more than one parent who would not let their kid go out of fear somebody would "turn them gay"!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 08/10/19 08:13 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all


Now parents fear to let their 18 year old kids go off to college. I've actually heard of more than one parent who would not let their kid go out of fear somebody would "turn them gay"!


Actually there's a huge number of people who still think that you can catch the gay "germ" and learn to be gay, or accidentally be "turned gay" or get coerced into being gay.
Naturally I am curious as to when these people "caught" the straight
"germ" that "turned them straight" and "what if they get cured of being straight"...then what?
Why hasn't the entire globe turned gay by now?
Come to think of it, why haven't all three leaf clovers been replaced by four leaf clovers?
Clovers have been around longer than the human race and they sure as Hell reproduce faster, too.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 08/11/19 09:02 PM

I think there's a tiny bit of truth in there somewhere. Most people are "born straight", but some percentage are born absolutely gay. They may not know it until they reach puberty and begin to have sexual attraction to other people. They may know from an early age. But there are also a certain percentage that are born bisexual. When they reach puberty they can be attracted to people of either sex. If one of those bi people has positive experiences with either same sex or different sex others, and never has any positive experiences with the other sex, they get in that habit. Probably for life. We tend to imprint on our early sexual experiences.

So that would be a case of a gay person "turning" another gay. But that other person was bi to begin with.

Then there are sexual predators who are more predator than sexual. Like the few pedophiles who don't care which gender their victims are. Or the hypersexual psychopaths who rape women on the outside and rape other men in prison.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: They have names - 08/11/19 09:12 PM



Alan Dershowitz is not a great legal mind or "great scholar." He's a barely sentient nudist who goes on TV to give Donald Trump a rim job. That's it.

Media need to stop booking that assclown.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: They have names - 08/11/19 09:15 PM


In my best Donald Trump voice aka imitating Donald Trump:

There’s a lot of talk about the fact that Trump molested a teen girl. I know nothing about it. I hear that he molested a teen girl. I’m sure that somebody will be looking at that.

smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: They have names - 08/11/19 09:30 PM

Quote:
But there are also a certain percentage that are born bisexual. When they reach puberty they can be attracted to people of either sex.

I was born Bi, from an early age I knew I wanted to get into everybody's pants. It was very confusing. I tried both ways but it was just a lot easier and more convenient to go straight and never pursue those other urges. So yeah, that happens.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 08/11/19 11:04 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think there's a tiny bit of truth in there somewhere. Most people are "born straight", but some percentage are born absolutely gay. They may not know it until they reach puberty and begin to have sexual attraction to other people. They may know from an early age. But there are also a certain percentage that are born bisexual. When they reach puberty they can be attracted to people of either sex. If one of those bi people has positive experiences with either same sex or different sex others, and never has any positive experiences with the other sex, they get in that habit. Probably for life. We tend to imprint on our early sexual experiences.

So that would be a case of a gay person "turning" another gay. But that other person was bi to begin with.

Then there are sexual predators who are more predator than sexual. Like the few pedophiles who don't care which gender their victims are. Or the hypersexual psychopaths who rape women on the outside and rape other men in prison.


I left out what you so eloquently described above, namely the acknowledgment that sexuality exists on a continuum rather than on two binary choices.
Thanks for reminding me. Bow

That said, we still wind up back at the old Four Leaf Clover question.
Why haven't four leaf clovers taken over the entire clover population?

Because homosexuality is a deviation from the norm.
It is however, a STANDARD deviation, and by that I mean one which is expected, and one which contributes important factors, vectors and input to the continuum as it always has.

We might even eventually figure out that homosexuality actually serves a very important purpose in both society and genetics, and we may eventually discover that that perennial five to seven percent of the population who are gay exist for reasons sociologists and scientists have yet to understand.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: They have names - 08/11/19 11:24 PM

Actually I think science has already found some survival value in having bi and gay people in a population. Children have an advantage when they have gay relatives because those gay uncles and aunts continue to serve as protectors within the extended family. Heterosexual uncles and aunts tend to go off and start their own families.

I think you can say the same for bi parents: Should a parent be killed, the remaining parent can partner with more potential mates if they are bi. Two parents is always safer for the kids than one parent, even if they are the same sex.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: They have names - 08/12/19 01:23 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Actually I think science has already found some survival value in having bi and gay people in a population. Children have an advantage when they have gay relatives because those gay uncles and aunts continue to serve as protectors within the extended family. Heterosexual uncles and aunts tend to go off and start their own families.

I think you can say the same for bi parents: Should a parent be killed, the remaining parent can partner with more potential mates if they are bi. Two parents is always safer for the kids than one parent, even if they are the same sex.


I like that because it sounds like it makes sense.
It is a simple and elegant explanation and I am eager to find out how the science around that theory develops.