Hyper-partisanship and irrationality

Posted by: NW Ponderer

Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 05:22 PM

It is my hope in this thread to avoid confrontation, name- calling, derisive dismissal, etc., and focus on the subject of the thread, which is: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality.

My parameters and inspiration: here and elsewhere I have tried to engage in discussions of news-of-the-day, political debate, scientific inquiry, legal principles, philosophy, and various other topics. In the vast majority of such instances (except usually here at the Rant), polite, reasoned discussions are derailed by repetitious, hyper-partisan tirades having little or nothing to do with the topic. Often the very first response is some off-topic screed. (It's happened already twice this morning. I'm pretty sure it is trolling-based efforts.)

My hypothesis is that is a fear-based response of the Id to a perceived threat. It does not appear to be rationally-inspired, as often the post is neither responsive, proportional, or topical. I believe that hyper-partisanship (tribal defense) leads to an irrational, "fight or flight" conditioning that overcomes the ability to consider impacts. I do not believe it is instinctual, but a conditioned response. I'll note, also, that I am not immune to emotional responsiveness. Often I feel attacked and the need to respond vigorously, and unfortunately sometimes in kind, is engaged.

This is not intended to be a political topic and is not based on research, but personal observation. It's a puzzle to me. I'm interested in other peoples observations and insights.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 06:20 PM

My anger at the republican party simply knows no bounds. I'll admit to irrationality, I'll admit to tribalism. Republicans, with the help of democratic neo-liberals, destroyed my life and I will never ever forgive or forget. Think of me as one of those small farmers who are now losing their farms, an immigrant who has lived here all his life but is being deported over a paperwork issue...think of me as a woman who is denied an abortion and must raise and care for an unwanted child, possibly the child of her rapist.
Think of me as a small construction company caught up in the housing crash of 2008.

But even before that I was angry. Most of my life I have been mostly apolitical, like most Americans I figured that sh*tt would take care of itself. But then came the war in Iraq. The stupidest decision ever made by a US president. I rolled my eyes and shook my head, sadly accepting the fact that the US is a warlike rogue nation and that no one is really safe from us.

Then one day I read an article about the use of radioactive waste as an ingredient in our munitions. Each bullet fired, every bomb exploded scatters nuclear waste willy-nilly about the battlefield, or the farmlands, or the villages and the water supplies.

Salting the fields with poison. That was it. My head exploded.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 06:25 PM




There should be no partisanship when facts are presented - it's pretty much a no-brainer when making decisions, provided you're a decent human being, of course. smile

Criminal Convictions by Administration – Past 50 Years:

LBJ – 0
Nixon – 55
Ford – 1

Carter – 0
Reagan – 16
H.W. Bush – 1
Clinton – 1
W Bush – 16
Obama – 0
Trump – 4

TOTAL:
Republicans = 95
Democrats = 1

Given these facts, why would anyone EVER vote for a Republican again? Leopards don't change their spots. Hmm
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It is my hope in this thread to avoid confrontation, name- calling, derisive dismissal, etc., and focus on the subject of the thread, which is: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality.

My parameters and inspiration: here and elsewhere I have tried to engage in discussions of news-of-the-day, political debate, scientific inquiry, legal principles, philosophy, and various other topics. In the vast majority of such instances (except usually here at the Rant), polite, reasoned discussions are derailed by repetitious, hyper-partisan tirades having little or nothing to do with the topic. Often the very first response is some off-topic screed. (It's happened already twice this morning. I'm pretty sure it is trolling-based efforts.)

My hypothesis is that is a fear-based response of the Id to a perceived threat. It does not appear to be rationally-inspired, as often the post is neither responsive, proportional, or topical. I believe that hyper-partisanship (tribal defense) leads to an irrational, "fight or flight" conditioning that overcomes the ability to consider impacts. I do not believe it is instinctual, but a conditioned response. I'll note, also, that I am not immune to emotional responsiveness. Often I feel attacked and the need to respond vigorously, and unfortunately sometimes in kind, is engaged.

This is not intended to be a political topic and is not based on research, but personal observation. It's a puzzle to me. I'm interested in other peoples observations and insights.


It's fear. Fear stimulates the amygdala and researchers and scientists have studied the fear reaction, and unfortunately much of that research was for nefarious purposes.
Donald Trump's method of manipulation is nothing new however, it's no different than an abusive spousal relationship.
It's also no different than the relationship that a mob boss has with his neighborhood.
The only difference is the economies of scale.
Trumpism is cultism, plain and simple, and once in almost every generation, a charlatan learns the secret sauce and utilizes it to gain control.
A forty year effort to dumb down education also played a large role in all of this as well.
It's "cool" to be ignorant in today's society. Azimov wrote about this phenomenon at length.
Unfortunately the path we are on can only go in one direction...
DOWN, very far down, to the point where the cultists lose so badly and are hurt so badly that it becomes an object lesson they cannot avoid.

And if society does not deliver that lesson next year, then the only direction it can go is total collapse of our democracy.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
...But then came the war in Iraq. The stupidest decision ever made by a US president...

W Bush was simply fulfilling the 1997 blue print for American middle-east neo-conservative imperialism whose signatories included Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld - all of whom "just happened" be get jobs in the W Bush Administration four years later.

smile

As of November 2018, it has been reported that this neo-conservative foray into middle-east imperalism has cost $5.9Trillion dollars and 6,828 American soldiers lives.

Neo-cons would rather tie up money resources in military foolishness than to be use that money on the American people and American infrastructure. This is a conscientious and purposeful decision that conservatives make.

The ire towards conservatives is justified in my opinion. smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 06:52 PM

Quote:
...to the point where the cultists lose so badly and are hurt so badly that it becomes an object lesson they cannot avoid.


Cults are funny. Remember Jonestown...Jim Jones...? They will literally kill themselves for their beliefs. Even if those beliefs are easily disproved by a simple examination of the facts.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
... the subject of the thread, which is: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality.

Quote:
Do you suppose yourself advancing on real ground toward a real heroic man?
Have you no thought, O dreamer, that it may be all maya, illusion?
-Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
My parameters and inspiration: here and elsewhere I have tried to engage in discussions of news-of-the-day, political debate, scientific inquiry, legal principles, philosophy, and various other topics. In the vast majority of such instances (except usually here at the Rant), polite, reasoned discussions are derailed by repetitious, hyper-partisan tirades having little or nothing to do with the topic. Often the very first response is some off-topic screed. (It's happened already twice this morning. I'm pretty sure it is trolling-based efforts.)

I don't know where else this could go for answers except the world of metaphysics and related psychology.

I have lightly introduced this many times before in the past 10 years, but what I know and my facility in presenting it is not substantial enough for a full blown treatise. However, in one 'teaching' called The Fourth Way (supposedly of ancient Sufi sources) there exists a general condition of humanity called "waking sleep". It refers to a level of consciousness that is mechanical, and not self-aware. I talked about it some months ago when describing four lower minds (intellectual, emotional, physical, and instinctive) that humans use in the state of waking sleep. People appear to be conscious but are actually functioning as stimulus-response machines. Reason doesn't enter the picture until a higher consciousness is brought into play. The theory goes that not very many people are seeking higher consciousness and even fewer have attained any semblance of it. Gurjieff and The 4th Way

Another metaphor that I find to be relevant is from The Matrix. People are unconscious beings hooked up to a neural network that provides them with dreams of living while it mines energy from them, like a massive organic battery. Life is maya.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It is my hope in this thread to avoid confrontation, name- calling, derisive dismissal, etc., and focus on the subject of the thread, which is: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality.

My parameters and inspiration: here and elsewhere I have tried to engage in discussions of news-of-the-day, political debate, scientific inquiry, legal principles, philosophy, and various other topics. In the vast majority of such instances (except usually here at the Rant), polite, reasoned discussions are derailed by repetitious, hyper-partisan tirades having little or nothing to do with the topic. Often the very first response is some off-topic screed. (It's happened already twice this morning. I'm pretty sure it is trolling-based efforts.)

My hypothesis is that is a fear-based response of the Id to a perceived threat. It does not appear to be rationally-inspired, as often the post is neither responsive, proportional, or topical. I believe that hyper-partisanship (tribal defense) leads to an irrational, "fight or flight" conditioning that overcomes the ability to consider impacts. I do not believe it is instinctual, but a conditioned response. I'll note, also, that I am not immune to emotional responsiveness. Often I feel attacked and the need to respond vigorously, and unfortunately sometimes in kind, is engaged.

This is not intended to be a political topic and is not based on research, but personal observation. It's a puzzle to me. I'm interested in other peoples observations and insights.
In the two sentences I've put in italics you contradict yourself NW. The "fight or flight" response is an instinctive one to danger, whether real or imagined.

In my opinion the reason for the hyper-partisanship and irrationality in politics today is that everything is, or has become, political. Everything has become political because we no longer look to ourselves or our friends and family for help with our problems but expect an immediate free solution to our problems from our federal government. While in some situations the problems we have are beyond what our friends and family can do then government help is the only thing that will work. When that is the best way deal to deal with such situations rather than looking to our federal government it would be better to look to our state governments. It is irrational to think that all of our problems can be solved by the people in Washington, D.C. That irrationality creates the hyper-partisan belief that the problems can only be solved if the "right" people are in charge.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
In my opinion the reason for the hyper-partisanship and irrationality in politics today is that everything is, or has become, political. Everything has become political because we no longer look to ourselves or our friends and family for help with our problems but expect an immediate free solution to our problems from our federal government. While in some situations the problems we have are beyond what our friends and family can do then government help is the only thing that will work. When that is the best way deal to deal with such situations rather than looking to our federal government it would be better to look to our state governments. It is irrational to think that all of our problems can be solved by the people in Washington, D.C. That irrationality creates the hyper-partisan belief that the problems can only be solved if the "right" people are in charge.

Given the context you have presented, is that the source of your hyper-partisanship and irrationality? What do you do to correct it?
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 09:29 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
In my opinion the reason for the hyper-partisanship and irrationality in politics today is that everything is, or has become, political. Everything has become political because we no longer look to ourselves or our friends and family for help with our problems but expect an immediate free solution to our problems from our federal government. While in some situations the problems we have are beyond what our friends and family can do then government help is the only thing that will work. When that is the best way deal to deal with such situations rather than looking to our federal government it would be better to look to our state governments. It is irrational to think that all of our problems can be solved by the people in Washington, D.C. That irrationality creates the hyper-partisan belief that the problems can only be solved if the "right" people are in charge.

Given the context you have presented, is that the source of your hyper-partisanship and irrationality? What do you do to correct it?
No, I am partisan because I believe that government is not the solution to all of our problems. It can help with some of them but when we stop demanding a government solution our lives will be better. My irrationality has nothing to do with my political views. I've been crazy for a long time!
LOL
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 09:32 PM

Quote:
because we no longer look to ourselves or our friends and family for help with our problems but expect an immediate free solution to our problems from our federal government.

Whatever makes you think that friends and families aren't working their asses off trying to help each other out? What makes you think folks aren't doing their very best to make it on their own. I reckon you never been down in the trenches where sh*t is real and the mud stinks. Where medicine or food is a decision to be made. Whre children go to school tired and hungry because there is no food at home, if there is a home at all.

Nobody is asking for a free lunch. I think I've mentioned that I live comfortably on $7.20 an hour. With no savings to back it up. For the last ten years I supported two of us on that. I would gladly take less if it meant that someone who has less than me had food and shelter. You don't seem to share that attitude and that's fine. But we can never be friends.

But you and I both know who's getting all the free lunches they can eat, along with breakfast and dinner and snacks. This economy is a luxury cruise provided for the rich by the government. Corporate profits have never been higher, there will be more billionaires tomorrow than today and more needless deaths among those of us at the bottom.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 09:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack


In my opinion the reason for the hyper-partisanship and irrationality in politics today is that everything is, or has become, political. Everything has become political because we no longer look to ourselves or our friends and family for help with our problems but expect an immediate free solution to our problems from our federal government. While in some situations the problems we have are beyond what our friends and family can do then government help is the only thing that will work. When that is the best way deal to deal with such situations rather than looking to our federal government it would be better to look to our state governments. It is irrational to think that all of our problems can be solved by the people in Washington, D.C. That irrationality creates the hyper-partisan belief that the problems can only be solved if the "right" people are in charge.


This is a manufactured hypothesis with little to no basis in reality.
Case in point: MY WIFE, who spent SIX YEARS exploring private sector medical resources for her health issues, not even realizing that Uncle Sam could or would help her.

The private sector did absolutely nothing for her, and she got worse and worse until she finally lost the ability to walk altogether, as they continued to "hint" that she "might have this or that" orphan disease with little to no treatment options.

She was using a rusted out wheelchair from her dead father when I came into her life because private sector docs would not give her any kind of firm diagnosis.

State governments do nothing for our disabled veterans, thank you very much. It was only the VA that quickly gave her an official diagnosis and treatment.

Your view on political issues comes from your safe space inside your head, which apparently has NO ROOM for anyone else who lives a different life from yours.
Sorry to inform you, but this is not Walnut Grove, MN in the 19th century and we aren't cast members of Little House on the Prairie.

This is the year 2019, Anno Domini...not B.C.
And Ayn Rand died while living off Social Security.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
because we no longer look to ourselves or our friends and family for help with our problems but expect an immediate free solution to our problems from our federal government.

Whatever makes you think that friends and families aren't working their asses off trying to help each other out? What makes you think folks aren't doing their very best to make it on their own. I reckon you never been down in the trenches where sh*t is real and the mud stinks. Where medicine or food is a decision to be made. Whre children go to school tired and hungry because there is no food at home, if there is a home at all.

Nobody is asking for a free lunch. I think I've mentioned that I live comfortably on $7.20 an hour. With no savings to back it up. For the last ten years I supported two of us on that. I would gladly take less if it meant that someone who has less than me had food and shelter. You don't seem to share that attitude and that's fine. But we can never be friends.

But you and I both know who's getting all the free lunches they can eat, along with breakfast and dinner and snacks. This economy is a luxury cruise provided for the rich by the government. Corporate profits have never been higher, there will be more billionaires tomorrow than today and more needless deaths among those of us at the bottom.
Yeah, I'm 66, nearly 67 years old, and unemployed so I don't know a damn thing about suffering or needing help! The pension I had was spent during the last 10 years while I was underemployed, working for temp agencies, and struggling to buy food. For a couple of years I had a dead job and managed to save some money. That money, a little over $4,000, was what I've lived on this year while looking for work. Most of my Social Security check went to pay to my association fees and Medicare. (Because I dislike being in debt I paid off my mortgage as quickly as possible.) You reckon wrong but then you are probably under the mistaken belief that all Republicans are rich. That way you can blame everything on "us" rich Republicans and the huge corporations we own. Poor Greger the victim of greedy corporations! BTW, when I was working I donated $20 a month to a charity that provides emergency assistance to people who need help. I don't talk about helping people I do it!
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 10:25 PM

I'm sorry about your situation Senator as it appears close to my own. Except that I'm also a cripple. I'm also 66 almost 67 too. My apologies for assuming you had done better than me.
No, being a republican won't make you rich. But being rich WILL make you a republican though. I know a lot of republicans and sadly all of them are poor because I don't actually know any rich folks anymore. Used to be a rich neighbor but he bought a couple houses on the lake so it was easier to take his new boat out, and so his wife and her sister could live next door to each other.

Oh...and I'm not a victim of anything but republican policies in general.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 10:42 PM

Quote:
I am partisan because I believe that government is not the solution to all of our problems. It can help with some of them but when we stop demanding a government solution our lives will be better. My irrationality has nothing to do with my political views. I've been crazy for a long time!

The last two lines tell the story.

It is precisely the reason it is so difficult trying to discuss anything with conservatives i.e. for the most part they are irrational. Facts are not facts or there exists alternative facts (in another universe) and simple logic is not allowed. Your partisanship is not predicated on your belief the federal government should not provide solutions.

For your benefit ...

Quote:
Partisan ... an adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause, especially a person who shows a biased, emotional allegiance


If government does not provide services or solutions for it's citizenry, then what good is government??? Also for your benefit, the only time the federal government steps in to try and provide solutions to problems is when either citizens, and local governments have not found solutions.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/06/19 10:56 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
I am partisan because I believe that government is not the solution to all of our problems. It can help with some of them but when we stop demanding a government solution our lives will be better. My irrationality has nothing to do with my political views. I've been crazy for a long time!

The last two lines tell the story.

It is precisely the reason it is so difficult trying to discuss anything with conservatives i.e. for the most part they are irrational. Facts are not facts or there exists alternative facts (in another universe) and simple logic is not allowed. Your partisanship is not predicated on your belief the federal government should not provide solutions.

For your benefit ...

Quote:
Partisan ... an adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause, especially a person who shows a biased, emotional allegiance


If government does not provide services or solutions for it's citizenry, then what good is government??? Also for your benefit, the only time the federal government steps in to try and provide solutions to problems is when either citizens, and local governments have not found solutions.
The last two lines do not tell the story. I said that to make fun of myself. Our federal government was created to provide a limited number of services to us. It used to be that our federal government was where people turned to for help as the very last resort. Now it is the first place people go to for help.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 01:29 AM

Oh...Senator Hatrack...I want to thank you for spending the day here with me, it has truly been a pleasure bantering with you. I'm still recovering and as yet unable to walk much so I'm stuck here in this chair and your company has been fun and welcome.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 01:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Oh...Senator Hatrack...I want to thank you for spending the day here with me, it has truly been a pleasure bantering with you. I'm still recovering and as yet unable to walk much so I'm stuck here in this chair and your company has been fun and welcome.
That's because you are as crazy as I am. Or is it that I'm as crazy as you are?
confused
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 02:07 AM

Quote:
Our federal government was created to provide a limited number of services to us. It used to be that our federal government was where people turned to for help as the very last resort. Now it is the first place people go to for help.


I disagree, people don't want to go begging for help at all. I certainly didn't. Folks want to make it on their own, kids want to move out of their parents place. The elderly and disabled want as much independence as they can get. But the government has put us in this position by catering to the whims of our corporate overlords and have put a vast swath of the population in peril for it.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Greger
Oh...Senator Hatrack...I want to thank you for spending the day here with me, it has truly been a pleasure bantering with you. I'm still recovering and as yet unable to walk much so I'm stuck here in this chair and your company has been fun and welcome.
That's because you are as crazy as I am. Or is it that I'm as crazy as you are?
confused


LOL yes we are a bit alike in that regard. I do this because it's fun and and it's fun doing it with you because we are such complete opposites politically. In real life I expect we could be good friends.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 02:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack


In my opinion the reason for the hyper-partisanship and irrationality in politics today is that everything is, or has become, political. Everything has become political because we no longer look to ourselves or our friends and family for help with our problems but expect an immediate free solution to our problems from our federal government. While in some situations the problems we have are beyond what our friends and family can do then government help is the only thing that will work. When that is the best way deal to deal with such situations rather than looking to our federal government it would be better to look to our state governments. It is irrational to think that all of our problems can be solved by the people in Washington, D.C. That irrationality creates the hyper-partisan belief that the problems can only be solved if the "right" people are in charge.


This is a manufactured hypothesis with little to no basis in reality.
Case in point: MY WIFE, who spent SIX YEARS exploring private sector medical resources for her health issues, not even realizing that Uncle Sam could or would help her.

The private sector did absolutely nothing for her, and she got worse and worse until she finally lost the ability to walk altogether, as they continued to "hint" that she "might have this or that" orphan disease with little to no treatment options.

She was using a rusted out wheelchair from her dead father when I came into her life because private sector docs would not give her any kind of firm diagnosis.

State governments do nothing for our disabled veterans, thank you very much. It was only the VA that quickly gave her an official diagnosis and treatment.

Your view on political issues comes from your safe space inside your head, which apparently has NO ROOM for anyone else who lives a different life from yours.
Sorry to inform you, but this is not Walnut Grove, MN in the 19th century and we aren't cast members of Little House on the Prairie.

This is the year 2019, Anno Domini...not B.C.
And Ayn Rand died while living off Social Security.

When I wrote that I was thinking of your situation Jeffery. Yours is a situation that requires help from our government. I believe that are a number of reasons doctors in the private sector were unable to help your wife. The doctors in the private sector are very cautious in making a diagnoses because if they are wrong they can be hit with big malpractice lawsuit. Another factor might be that it took time for the doctors to determine what her illness actually is.

I am glad that this is not Walnut Grove, MN and we are not living in the 19th century. If it was due to the medical problems I've had, a broken neck, I'd be dead.

The reason I use CE (Common Era) not AD (Anno Domini) is because I am an atheist. Anno Domini is Latin for the year of our Lord (Jesus). And I am not a fan of Ayn Rand. I found her writing style tedious reading.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 02:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Greger
Oh...Senator Hatrack...I want to thank you for spending the day here with me, it has truly been a pleasure bantering with you. I'm still recovering and as yet unable to walk much so I'm stuck here in this chair and your company has been fun and welcome.
That's because you are as crazy as I am. Or is it that I'm as crazy as you are?
confused


LOL yes we are a bit alike in that regard. I do this because it's fun and and it's fun doing it with you because we are such complete opposites politically. In real life I expect we could be good friends.


I AM NOT THAT CRAZY!
rolleyes
AM I?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 02:37 AM

LOLZ Yeah you are. So am I.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 03:55 AM

I really can't understand the conservative fixation on state government services versus federal government. What's the difference? Seems to me there isn't any, but maybe that's because I live in a state that has about 20% of the US population in it. I don't really have any sort of loyalty to residents of my state that exceeds my loyalty to all Americans. I don't feel like we Californians are entitled to more services or benefits than people of any other state or territory. Maybe that's why I find the neglect of Puerto Rico so horrendous.

Does anybody have any ideas on this topic? Is it just our national sports fixation, making residents of other states "a different team"?
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 05:03 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I really can't understand the conservative fixation on state government services versus federal government. What's the difference? Seems to me there isn't any, but maybe that's because I live in a state that has about 20% of the US population in it. I don't really have any sort of loyalty to residents of my state that exceeds my loyalty to all Americans. I don't feel like we Californians are entitled to more services or benefits than people of any other state or territory. Maybe that's why I find the neglect of Puerto Rico so horrendous.

Does anybody have any ideas on this topic? Is it just our national sports fixation, making residents of other states "a different team"?
That might be because you don't know much about Federalism. Here are some links to help you understand it. The Short Explanation
The Long Explanation
The two sentence explanation. The government that governs best is the one closest to home. A state government is closer to you than the national government is.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I really can't understand the conservative fixation on state government services versus federal government. What's the difference?

There's no difference, especially given that the state funding comes from the federal government via block grants. Hmm

This is just more intellectual dishonesty from the right. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The government that governs best is the one closest to home. A state government is closer to you than the national government is.

We tried strong state governance in 1776 and it didn't work. Ergo in 1789 we went to a stronger centralized federal government.

Quote:
“insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.”
- Albert Einstein


smile
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The government that governs best is the one closest to home. A state government is closer to you than the national government is.

We tried strong state governance in 1776 and it didn't work. Ergo in 1789 we went to a stronger centralized federal government.

Quote:
“insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.”
- Albert Einstein


smile

That stronger central government was created when delegates from the states wrote our Constitution. Prior to that the states saw themselves as separate countries but realized they needed a more perfect union than was provided for by the Articles of Confederation.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 07:31 PM

Quote:
Prior to that the states saw themselves as separate countries but realized they needed a more perfect union than was provided for by the Articles of Confederation.

E Pluribus Unum so to speak.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
...the states saw themselves as separate countries but realized they needed a more perfect union than was provided for by the Articles of Confederation.

I've never heard or read that the states considered as "separate countries" before. I know they tried to negotiate trade deals independently of each other but they still considered themselves one of thirteen.

The fact remains, America tried it your way once, and it didn't work out - ergo the Albert Einstein quote. smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 08:50 PM

Quote:
it didn't work out

States still have great deal of autonomy and do most of the actual governing of the population. City and county governments do an enormous amount of work in that regard too.

When it comes right down to it most of us never see the Federal Government in action. And that's as it should be, they fund the things that need funding, regulate the things that need regulating, and bomb the things that need bombing. Also they provide endless entertainment and good dependable jobs for many thousands of Americans.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
...the states saw themselves as separate countries but realized they needed a more perfect union than was provided for by the Articles of Confederation.

I've never heard or read that the states considered as "separate countries" before. I know they tried to negotiate trade deals independently of each other but they still considered themselves one of thirteen.

The fact remains, America tried it your way once, and it didn't work out - ergo the Albert Einstein quote. smile
Try learning about American history before you talk about it. Prior to the writing of our Constitution, and even after that, the states had a great deal of autonomy. The change from states being autonomous to our having a stronger central government than our Constitution allowed began during the Wilson administration. It was during FDR's third term that the strong central government we now have happened. So from 1787 to 1941, for 154 years, federalism worked.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/07/19 11:23 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It is my hope in this thread to avoid confrontation, name- calling, derisive dismissal, etc., and focus on the subject of the thread, which is: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality.

Your hopes were in vain...
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 01:15 AM

Hey, me and Hatrack have become fast friends amidst our bickering!

Sometimes I want to call him a dumb feck and wring his neck for his obstinance but he came by his weird ideas honest and there is some small truth about what he has to say. You might note that he also thinks I'm a dumb feck and he'd like to wring my neck as well.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Hey, me and Hatrack have become fast friends amidst our bickering!

Sometimes I want to call him a dumb feck and wring his neck for his obstinance but he came by his weird ideas honest and there is some small truth about what he has to say. You might note that he also thinks I'm a dumb feck and he'd like to wring my neck as well.

If I were to wring your neck it would make a big mess. I'll just call you dumb feck.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 03:28 AM

Quote:
from 1787 to 1941, for 154 years, federalism worked


Until it didn't anymore. Events of the last 80 years can't be ignored. The world is fundamentally different. Going back to the pre-1941 system does not make any sense. Why should anybody want to, other than as a dishonest obfuscation when losing an argument?
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 04:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
[ Prior to the writing of our Constitution, and even after that, the states had a great deal of autonomy. The change from states being autonomous to our having a stronger central government than our Constitution allowed began during the Wilson administration. It was during FDR's third term that the strong central government we now have happened. So from 1787 to 1941, for 154 years, federalism worked.

Whatever we have today is the kind of government that I like: if there are no federal rules, then states can do what they want. smile

I like that when some states do something and other states don't, the federal government steps in and gets all of the ducks in a row and everybody starts doing the same thing.

We're the united States of America, not the disjointed States of America.

smile
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 04:27 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
from 1787 to 1941, for 154 years, federalism worked


Until it didn't anymore. Events of the last 80 years can't be ignored. The world is fundamentally different. Going back to the pre-1941 system does not make any sense. Why should anybody want to, other than as a dishonest obfuscation when losing an argument?
The world might be different but human nature is not. The changes in the last 80 years are based on the mistaken idea that human nature has changed. The "dishonest obfuscation" is the myth that the changes made in the last 80 years are an improvement on what worked for 154 years. When the changes disregard that which does not change, human nature, the changes should be discarded.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 04:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The changes in the last 80 years are based on the mistaken idea that human nature has changed. gard that which does not change, human nature, the changes should be discarded.

Human nature has changed. We no longer have slaves. We no longer have segregation. We no longer have a patriarchal heteronormative work force.

We are diversified. Diversity is our strength. smile
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 05:17 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
[ Prior to the writing of our Constitution, and even after that, the states had a great deal of autonomy. The change from states being autonomous to our having a stronger central government than our Constitution allowed began during the Wilson administration. It was during FDR's third term that the strong central government we now have happened. So from 1787 to 1941, for 154 years, federalism worked.

Whatever we have today is the kind of government that I like: if there are no federal rules, then states can do what they want. smile

I like that when some states do something and other states don't, the federal government steps in and gets all of the ducks in a row and everybody starts doing the same thing.

We're the united States of America, not the disjointed States of America.

smile

Originally Posted By: Thomas Jefferson
"I do verily believe that if the principle were to prevail of a common law being in force in the United States (which principle possesses the general government at once of all the powers of the state governments, and reduces us to a single consolidated government), it would become the most corrupt government on the earth." (From Thomas Jefferson to Gideon Granger, 13 August 1800)
"Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread. (Federal v. Consolidated Government)
Federalism is when states make laws that are different from those of other states. Federalism is when a state can have their own speed limit laws. Federalism is freedom. Freedom is not when everybody does the same thing because our government in Washington, D.C. tells them they must do so.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 06:18 AM

You mean like the 1964 Civil Rights Act?
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 11:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Federalism is when a state can have their own speed limit laws. Federalism is freedom.

Now I get it! Freedom is state mandated speed limits! :applaud:
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 03:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
...the states saw themselves as separate countries but realized they needed a more perfect union than was provided for by the Articles of Confederation.

I've never heard or read that the states considered as "separate countries" before. I know they tried to negotiate trade deals independently of each other but they still considered themselves one of thirteen.

The fact remains, America tried it your way once, and it didn't work out - ergo the Albert Einstein quote. smile
Try learning about American history before you talk about it. Prior to the writing of our Constitution, and even after that, the states had a great deal of autonomy. The change from states being autonomous to our having a stronger central government than our Constitution allowed began during the Wilson administration. It was during FDR's third term that the strong central government we now have happened. So from 1787 to 1941, for 154 years, federalism worked.
Would that you followed your own advice my friend. Your "view" of history is belied by a little thing called "the Civil War", an event you probably read a little about in school. It was a conflict between those that thought the United States had a strong central government and those that thought States should remain independent. You remember who won that dispute, right? There were a few amendments to the Constitution that resulted that significantly changed that balance of authority, and it happened way before Wilson.

Beyond the historical, there is merit to some of what you say: we are a federal system, and State governments are (theoretically) closer to their citizens. As Greger pointed out, most of our services come from local sources.

But it beggars reality to pretend that local issues don't have national implications. Schools are a prime example. If only local taxes paid for local education, poor communities would be condemned to having perpetually poor schools. (Waitaminute...) So, States step in, frequently, to bolster local coffers and improve education. But then, poor States don't have the resources to bolster much (see Mississippi), so their schools remain inferior. Those poor school systems are a burden on the entire United States, but ideology prevents solutions to the problem being effective.

You are a living, breathing example of a national solution to a local problem: Social Security and Medicare are national solutions for endemic local problems of poverty and poor local health care. Indeed, it is hard to find any local problem that doesn't have national implications.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/08/19 07:04 PM

I think that is a re-statement of something I said .... when people and local government can not find a solution the federal government tries (when of course they are allowed by ... you know ... that piece of paper Mr Trump burned)
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Would that you followed your own advice my friend. Your "view" of history is belied by a little thing called "the Civil War", an event you probably read a little about in school. It was a conflict between those that thought the United States had a strong central government and those that thought States should remain independent. You remember who won that dispute, right? There were a few amendments to the Constitution that resulted that significantly changed that balance of authority, and it happened way before Wilson.

Your "knowledge" of the Civil War is inaccurate. One side fought to preserve the Union and the other side to preserve slavery. It was not fought over a the belief in a strong central government versus the states to be independent. That is a view put forth by Woodrow Wilson, the Godfather of Liberalism, a proponent of a strong central government. Wilson had some conflicting views. He was a southerner by birth, Virginia, a racist whose favorite movie was The Birth of a Nation because the KKK were the heroes of the movie, yet he admired Lincoln because Wilson thought our 16th President believed in a strong central government. Wilson misinterpreted Lincoln's efforts in the Civil War to preserve the Union as a belief in a strong central government. While the XIII, XIV, and XV Amendments are thought to strengthen our central government, because they were "railroaded" through the amendment procedure by the revenge minded Radical Republicans, they actually reinforce our Declaration of Independence's influence on our Constitution. Wilson's Progressive/Liberal movement (mis)used our Constitution to increase the size of our federal government. That movement is based on Wilson's agreement with the side of the of the Civil War to preserve slavery. Both of them, and the Progressives/Liberals of today, reject the most progressive idea in human history, the idea that has become the essence of of our DoI, "that all men are created equal..." Slavery and the strong central government Wilson wanted cannot exist unless that idea is rejected. Wilson's desire for a strong central government was implemented by FDR and LBJ. FDR was a protege of Wilson's and LBJ was a protege of FDR.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think that is a re-statement of something I said .... when people and local government can not find a solution the federal government tries (when of course they are allowed by ... you know ... that piece of paper Mr Trump burned)

If you are talking about our Constitution what FDR did to it was far worse than anything Trump has been accused of.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 02:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think that is a re-statement of something I said .... when people and local government can not find a solution the federal government tries (when of course they are allowed by ... you know ... that piece of paper Mr Trump burned)

If you are talking about our Constitution what FDR did to it was far worse than anything Trump has been accused of.
just when I think there is a chance of rational, non-partisan discussion... As Ronald Reagan put it, "there you go again..."
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 03:08 AM

Quote:
the Progressives/Liberals of today, reject the most progressive idea in human history, the idea that has become the essence of of our DoI, "that all men are created equal..."

If you believe that, then you completely misunderstand the ideals for which liberals stand.

Liberals do not file suits against Republican laws which limit, disenfranchise, and otherwise dehumanize people because they want a strong central government. They do it because they believe ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND DESERVE THE SAME EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW. Some of these cases are before the SC now.

Aside: I think your views on Lincoln's political philosophy has been tainted by those who believe the Party of Lincoln is the same as Trump's Party.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 03:12 AM

Quote:
what FDR did to it was far worse

OK help me out. Think of me as ignorant and tell me how Pres Roosevelt trampled on the Constitution so I can compare the two for their legal misbehavior.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 03:34 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think that is a re-statement of something I said .... when people and local government can not find a solution the federal government tries (when of course they are allowed by ... you know ... that piece of paper Mr Trump burned)

If you are talking about our Constitution what FDR did to it was far worse than anything Trump has been accused of.
just when I think there is a chance of rational, non-partisan discussion... As Ronald Reagan put it, "there you go again..."

You couldn't have a rational non-partisan discussion if your life depended on it! Has Pres. Trump put over 70,000 American citizens in concentration (internment) camps because of their nationality? No, he has not! Pres. Roosevelt did! FDR put over 70,000 American citizens of Japanese descent in concentration camps. When FDR did that he completely ignored the IV, V, and VI Amendments to our Constitution. If you were to think you would not make such obnoxious, arrogant, and idiotic comments as you just did. The incarceration of over 70,000 American citizens was the most egregious violation of our Constitution that FDR committed. There are many more that he did that Trump has not even come close to. So stick your partisan comments where the sun doesn't shine. Oh, I forgot a rational non-partisan comment is one that either supports what NW Ponderer says or one he agrees with.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 12:36 PM

That rant seemed a bit irrational, didn’t it?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 12:38 PM

<sigh>
My friend, I make a small request: Go back through the thread and find the first instances of derision. They are in your posts. That is what I was hoping to avoid. You dismiss counter views as if they are based on ignorance, rather than disagreement, and immediately go for conflict. I was pointing to an historical record that conflicts with your hypothesis. I even agreed with some of your points. Did you respond to that? No. Immediately you went into hyperpartisan mode and attacked. I'm not the problem here.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 01:28 PM

Wait...what?!

You can't tell the difference between 1941 and now?
Neither concentration camps were/are good but rilly? Snatching kids from moms and Dads on the border for political points with fat necked golfing bigots and kick backs from human caging companies is milder and less offensive compared to the freakout going on during WW?

I can never tell if your selling yourself, others or both.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
<sigh>
My friend, I make a small request: Go back through the thread and find the first instances of derision. They are in your posts. That is what I was hoping to avoid. You dismiss counter views as if they are based on ignorance, rather than disagreement, and immediately go for conflict. I was pointing to an historical record that conflicts with your hypothesis. I even agreed with some of your points. Did you respond to that? No. Immediately you went into hyperpartisan mode and attacked. I'm not the problem here.
Is that why Greger and I have become real friends? Yes, my making fun of myself is an instance of derision. Speaking of derision you should look in the mirror, NW.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Would that you followed your own advice my friend. Your "view" of history is belied by a little thing called "the Civil War", an event you probably read a little about in school. It was a conflict between those that thought the United States had a strong central government and those that thought States should remain independent. You remember who won that dispute, right? There were a few amendments to the Constitution that resulted that significantly changed that balance of authority, and it happened way before Wilson.
Your comment derisively implies that I know very little about the Civil War. You dismissed my view based on what you believe is my ignorance. Which is a form of ignorance in and of itself. It is because you do not know what my educational background is. In most of your comments you deride those who disagree with you in your arrogant belief that you know more than they do. With every sentence in that comment you deride my knowledge of American history. You didn't disagree with me you questioned my knowledge. As with your repeated claim that I did not read The Mueller Report you cannot accept the fact that those who disagree with you are right and you are wrong. You are the problem here.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 05:32 PM

PUT the shovel down! You just keep digging, and the hole is too deep to climb out of already. I was RESPONDING to YOUR partisan and derisive attack on Rick. I know you avoid mirrors like the plague, but get real. You just keep proving the point of my thread, so I am grateful for that, but you can stop anytime you want. I have no control over emotional outbursts that aren't mine.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 05:51 PM

Why do you ignore the facts??

Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944)

Originally Posted By: June 26, 2018 Time
Both liberal and conservative justices have criticized the Korematsu decision in the past, but it was never formally overturned.


until

Originally Posted By: June 26, 2018 Time
Writing for the majority, Chief Justice John Roberts argued that the case was not relevant to the travel ban, but went ahead and wrote that it is now overturned.


Quote:
[Mr] Trump has not [committed unConstitutional acts][


Do you want a list of ALL the laws which have been deemed unConstitutional by the SC? It is a long list. Pres Obama is not on that list, but Pres' Lincoln, Bush and Reagan are.

So your criteria is only unConstitutional acts are in consideration. So Mr Trump can break all manner of law and you are ok with that. Mr Trump can operate a criminal conspiracy in public view from the WH and you are OK with that? And to think you are the guy crying the loudest about corruption, but what you really meant is you are crying about the other guys corruption.

Nothing like partisan hypocrisy

{best Hannity voice} <--> Geeeeeez
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/09/19 06:17 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
PUT the shovel down! You just keep digging, and the hole is too deep to climb out of already. I was RESPONDING to YOUR partisan and derisive attack on Rick. I know you avoid mirrors like the plague, but get real. You just keep proving the point of my thread, so I am grateful for that, but you can stop anytime you want. I have no control over emotional outbursts that aren't mine.
Rick can defend himself. He does not need you to defend him. My telling Rick to learn about American history is not derisive and partisan when he said he didn't know a fact I had mentioned. That you take one of my comments out of context and ignore the rest of them shows who is the partisan one here and it ain't me!
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/10/19 04:10 AM

I'm rubber, you're glue!
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/17/19 06:22 PM

Let's not get into a flame war, boys...

Everyone...

If we weren't all partisans we'd have no reason to be here. When the Senator wasn't here the leftermost among us argued with the futherest to the right. Monsieur Hatrack merely moved things to the right a bit.

He's wrong 99% of the time but I haven't given up on turning him back into the leftist that that I know lives in his heart. None of us is ignorant of history or the law and we all are deft googlers and fact check ourselves as we hyperbolize and propagandize.

I'm not going to recommend against petty attacks because what fun would that be anyway? But let's keep the petty attacks focused on the topic of the thread rather than just devolving into unrelated personal arguments. Thread drift is okay too but try to occasionally bring it back to topic.

Let's all try to keep things cordial and friendly.

Greger, Moderator.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/17/19 06:49 PM

Why don't you bugger off, Mom?!?

devil
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/18/19 11:31 PM

Exactly the sort of response I expected...

**shakes head and wanders back to mod room**
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/18/19 11:32 PM

We have wine back there, lots of wine. Because we need it, it's like herding cats..
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hyper-partisanship and irrationality - 10/19/19 12:47 AM

I herd that!!