Libertarianism Makes You Stupid

Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 03:25 PM

 Quote:
People who venture into electronic discussion areas will invariable encounter an ideology called Libertarianism. In fact, it is said

[snip]
From proponents, you might be told

The Libertarian way is a logically consistent approach to politics based on the moral principle of self-ownership. Each individual has the right to control his or her own body, action, speech, and property. Government's only role is to help individuals defend themselves from force and fraud.

However, I regard the Libertarianism as a kind of business-worshiping cultish religion, which churns out annoying flamers who resemble nothing so much as street-preachers on the Information Sidewalk.


Link

Libertarianism FAQ

 Quote:
I'm going to beat up on libertarians by creating a straw-man version of them. But, I plan to have fun, and perhaps this little exercise will be cathartic.

Here's the straw-man: Libertarians believe that individuals should choose whether or not to participate in social good. That is, taxes are a form of theft, of the government stealing from you to support their power habits, and to give to the poor, who don't deserve it because they are fat and lazy and probably on drugs, and definitely on welfare.

This version of libertarianism isn't too far from the truth. They rant about this often enough.

Here's my problem with this:

You are part of society. You are gaining by participating in a cooperative society. Therefore, you have obligations to help keep that society as strong as possible. If you don't wish to participate in society, get the hell out. Go someplace where society supports ultimate liberty -- say, Rowanda, or Columbia, where you can do pretty much as you please, as long as you have the money. Granted, others might do unto you that which will benefit them most, but that's what liberty is about, isn't it?

[snip]
"But Tony!" you whine. "Why should I pay taxes to support someone who isn't contributing to society? Why should I help those who are unwilling to help themselves?"

Because, Mister, they don't necessarily have the freedoms you have.

Link
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 04:33 PM

In word, Libertarianism = Somalia.

Even in the best of all imaginable worlds, libertarianism equals a ridiculous fantasy with every man to his own mountaintop valhalla, surrounded by a moat and machine guns.

And that valhalla had better be off the grid too, mate.
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 06:34 PM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Quote:
People who venture into electronic discussion areas will invariable encounter an ideology called Libertarianism...

YOTF rating: 2

Seeking an excellent species, but obviously with little angling skill. Instead of a good fly-rod with a light line, a fine leader and an appropriate dry fly, the amateur fisherman has poured several gallons of stink-bait around the boat and then placed a huge lump of Gob-O-Worm on a gaff and is swirling it in the water in the belief that the target species will fling itself onto the hook...
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 06:42 PM

Ron
Without the benefit of talking to Phil, it seems to me that while this can be construed as baiting, it is out in the open, up front and establishes a clear invitation to debate Phil's position. Unlike Iss, Phil seems to be making no bones about his position. I know you will defend Iss to the core, but his rhetoric is full of traps and pitfalls. That said, in reference to another of your posts on a different thread, I am sure that Iss is quite a poet indeed.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 06:44 PM

So Ron, you admit it is all true. Thanks.

Or just don't have the stomach for a discussion?
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 08:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
YOTF rating: 2

;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 08:28 PM

What does YOTF have to do with it? Or do you have a different meaning for the term? If so, have the guts to spell it out.
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 08:53 PM

seeing as they are rugged individualists, they can choose to stand independent of any discussion, and feel no need to defend their position, since their position is one of solitary independence and they stand with no one.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 09:07 PM

Feel free to contribute your thoughts, 2wins.
Posted by: AustinRanter

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 09:37 PM

Party Membership In: Democrat Pary - Republican Pary - Libertarian Pary = Surrendering One's Ability to Engage in Free Thinking

And just for grins...throw in any other party name on the left side of the equation and the equation still works.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 09:43 PM

AustinRanter, I did not mention any party. As issodhos has correctly pointed out, libertarianism is quite a different thing from the Libertarian party.

I call into question the entire philosophical/political underpinnings of the libertarians.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 10:08 PM

Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 10:20 PM

took an existentialism class in college. mostly for grins. asked the prof one day, "if existentialists believe that life has no meaning, then why do we have a class to study it?" The answer, of course, was mumbo jumbo. In that same vein, a true "libertarian" if such a person existed would not be a libertarian; too structured.
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 11:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Feel free to contribute your thoughts, 2wins.
well, aside from my sarcastic post earlier, my thoughts are simply that i find libertarians, libertarianism, ayn randites and the like to be boring and lacking in original thought insofar as political ideas are concerned. as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much. i think schlack's cartoon says a great deal about the issue.
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 11:35 PM

 Originally Posted By: 2wins
Ron
Without the benefit of talking to Phil, it seems to me that while this can be construed as baiting, it is out in the open, up front and establishes a clear invitation to debate Phil's position...

I don't mind in the least whether or not it's bait, 2wins, nor do I imagine that the "target species" is overly concerned. All I was doing was pointing out that, after an initial fast-read, I thought it was low-quality bait and not particularly well played.

 Quote:
Unlike Iss, Phil seems to be making no bones about his position. I know you will defend Iss to the core, but his rhetoric is full of traps and pitfalls.

I disagree, 2wins, as I do not find his writing(s) to present any kind of minefield provided one reads carefully and pays attention to exactly what has been said. He is very precise in his meanings, and any problems generally arise because someone has tried to reword or redefine what he has actually said.

As to defending him, as I said on the "roots" thread, I do not feel any obligation to defend him nor do I feel that he needs defending. My concern with that thread was that I knew his position was being misrepresented or misinterpreted because of the conniption over the Buchanan article. As it turns out, I believe that - per Issodhos' reiteration late yesterday of the reason and the intention behind the buchanan article - I was 115% correct.

 Quote:
That said, in reference to another of your posts on a different thread, I am sure that Iss is quite a poet indeed.

Yes, he is. He often brings other poets and - unfortunately, all too rarely - some of his own work to our other shared forum.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 10:59 PM

Actually I think libertarians have a way of making the rest of us look stupid. We aren't. It's a little like Schrodinger's cat but it's a game played with holes and pegs, the libertarian, (usually Issodhos), presents us with a round peg and a round hole, it looks like an easy fit so we insert it as per the instructions, the peg immediately turns square! If we instead attempt to insert it into the square hole then suddenly the square hole is round. While Schrodinger's Cat is simultaneously alive and dead our pegs are simultaneously round and square when we try to fit them to the libertarian equation whose holes are equally simultaneously square and round in a perfectly opposite sequence. We non-libertarians are endlessly frustrated by the game while the libertarian (usually Issodhos;)) is endlessly entertained.
We gnash teeth, he crunches popcorn, Schrodinger's cat is dead and alive.
Libertarianism is a good theory with one small fatal flaw(in my opinion) It can't work unless everyone is identical. If everyone in the world were exactly like Isshodos it would be a perfect world. Failing that the cat is alive or dead but can never be both. That only works for libertarians, for instance, if everyone in the world was like me it would be a friggin mess.
Come to think of it everyone in the world is a lot like me and it's a friggin mess.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 11:06 PM

Are some Ranters having a bad hair day?

My understanding of Libertarianism is that "they" are fiscally conservative and socially librul.

That's a simplistic understanding of Libertarianism, but I like those core values that "they" have.


...and why is Issy being picked on? Leave him alone.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 11:33 PM

No...no no no no.
A libertarian is a person who states that "government is best that governs least".

It's a fine notion, until you want roads, education, civil infrastructure, law enforcement, mail delivery, and in this day and age of 1700 dollar a day bed rates, HEALTH CARE for people who cannot afford the 700 dollar a month family health insurance from an HMO that will invariably reject your claim the second you come down with a serious illness which will put your life in jeopardy.

You will die a libertarian death "because the market said so", or because "health care corporations are in business to make money".

In fact, the phrase "are in business to make money" is a catch all used to defend all manner of libertarian and conservative rapine alike.

Fred Reed put it so beautifully in
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Conservatives.shtml
when he said:

(5) A lack of esthetic sensitivity. Where other people see a towering redwood forest as a place of contemplation, of solemn ancient beauty and God’s handiwork, the conservative (of the type I am talking about) sees timber suitable for making weatherproof decks for yuppies (at a good profit).

The only difference between the libertarian and the conservative is that the conservative will take you to court while the libertarian will either stand there and wait for the market to speak for him or he might pipe up and tell you that you're infringing on the conservative's individualism, as well as their rights as a juristic person, of course.

And he'll do it from high atop his mountain valhalla.
Want roads? Let the free market provide them.
Want schools?
Don't tax me, find a business that will open one to train little Johnny to install widgets. Maybe they'll throw in some history and arithmetic and a sack lunch, for a nice profit of course.

Dammit, why should he have to pay taxes for your little Johnny's school when he has no kids of his own?
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/14/09 11:49 PM

 Quote:

I disagree, 2wins, as I do not find his writing(s) to present any kind of minefield provided one reads carefully and pays attention to exactly what has been said. He is very precise in his meanings, and any problems generally arise because someone has tried to reword or redefine what he has actually said.


we shall have to agree to disagree on that one, ron. i think there is a fine game of cat and mouse being played, for the most part. as for the roots thread, well i didn't have any issues with iss on that, and took it at face value. rarely do i do that with him, however. i think greger's analogy above sums it up for me. that said, perhaps i should return to my former sig line, "to each his own, molly said as she kissed the cow."
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 12:06 AM

I have not participated in the "roots" thread, so I don't understand the references. I haven't caught up with the original references here, but I have a general disdain for "libertarian" thought as it is practiced, although I understand, and even endorse, the underlying premise that the default state of being is to be left alone. Our government is generally aligned with that premise, but it is the unwillingness to allow that there are significant exceptions to the underlying premise that makes modern "libertarianism" so internally logically inconsistent... or, phrased differently, stupid.
Posted by: Allen Owen

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 12:18 AM

I dunno...I think most Austrian Economists would argue that there has not been a "Free Market" for a long time. Since 1913 at least, if not longer. They would argue that the current economic mess has been caused by the Fed and government interference on many levels. Yes, I am aware of the deregulation that went on and the repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act, and yes it was a stupid thing to do. They are also very strongly opposed to the bailouts of the financial institutions that made these risky loans and in a free market, they would not be recieving our tax money at all. They would be allowed to fail. I guess we are going to give socialism a try now. It seems to be what everyone wants...all that wonderful health care a la the USSR. Well, not socialism really. We are going to have a privately owned and operated government. I imagine health care will be even better under the new system. I consider myself a libertarian, but sometimes "Libertarians" go too far. Less government yes,but we need a little government so we can have roads, law enforcment, etc. I think what has been described thus far might be best described as "anarchy". It's of interest to me how easily people like to pigeon hole those who disagree with them and demonize what they believe. Every one does it, left, right, whatever. It gets downright hostile. Because of this, we are a doomed society. Like George Carlin, I'm just gonna munch popcorn and enjoy the show as we self destruct. \:\)
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 12:27 AM

And, I might add, Allen, I think most of the Austrian School economists are "free-market" ideologues with no concept of reality - that is, with little to contribute to a reasoned discussion. It seems obvious to virtually anyone who thinks - which clearly includes yourself - that some kind of "mixed" economy is required in a functioning society. It is the balance of the mix that is important, and as you note, purists of virtually every stripe are counterproductive.
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 12:33 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
What does YOTF have to do with it? Or do you have a different meaning for the term? If so, have the guts to spell it out.

It has nothing to do with organic chemistry. Note that the OTF are subscripted to the Y - you got this article as a consequence of most google-searches being case-blind.

My apologies for using the term w/o a background - I thought it had been used previously on RR.

Several years ago on our other shared forum, Issodhos introduced the YOTF rating as a gauge of the quality and elegance of an argument - usually the lead post in a thread - in engaging another poster - expressed as if one were rating an angler going after a particular species.

YOTF - Year of the Fish, a reference to the Chinese calendar, and the year it was introduced to us, IIRC.

rating: 0-10 - range indication increasing skill, elegance and sophistication in choice of lure, presentation and handling of the target once hooked.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 12:41 AM

 Originally Posted By: california rick
A

...and why is Issy being picked on? Leave him alone.


Posted by: Allen Owen

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 12:46 AM

The title of the thread and what was posted in the initial salvo seemed rather angry and hostile. Yes, a mix is really the best way to go. There needs to be some kind of social safety net so that those who fall on hard times have a chance of getting back on their feet, but the possibility of abuse of this net is great. We have a generation or more who have been trained to rely on this net and not find a way to earn a living.

I have no answer for what to do about HMOs. They cost way too much and often deny treatment for things that are life threatening. I don't know what to do about it, aside from marching on the HMOs with pitchforks and torches.

I see what we are going to get for a govrnment can be best described as "corporatism", government by and for corporations. I seem to recall Mussolini said that was what he was instituting in Italy. That worked out very well. ;\)

Before everyone goes crazy and decides capitalism is the problem, remember that all these nice things we have here in the US are a result of capitalism. By nice things I mean iPods, computers of various types, big screen TV's, etc. Crap no-one really needs, but they are dang nice to have. \:\)
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 12:47 AM

Ron wrote
 Quote:
a gauge of the quality and elegance of an argument - usually the lead post in a thread - in engaging another poster - expressed as if one were rating an angler going after a particular species.


I think it is that concept - that a discussion or debate involves a lure (or perhaps bait) and getting hooked (or snared, perhaps) that some might find less than straightforward; most of us would rather be the fisher than the fished - even better, to converse without checking for lures.

Not to say that's what happens regularly around here. I just find it a poor metaphor for a good conversation. But that's just me.

(Never having been in formal debate, I am perhaps unaware of how appropriate this approach might be to such an environment - hence my "pussy-footing" around.)
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 01:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
What does YOTF have to do with it? Or do you have a different meaning for the term? If so, have the guts to spell it out.

It has nothing to do with organic chemistry. Note that the OTF are subscripted to the Y - you got this article as a consequence of most google-searches being case-blind.

My apologies for using the term w/o a background - I thought it had been used previously on RR.

Several years ago on our other shared forum, Issodhos introduced the YOTF rating as a gauge of the quality and elegance of an argument - usually the lead post in a thread - in engaging another poster - expressed as if one were rating an angler going after a particular species.

YOTF - Year of the Fish, a reference to the Chinese calendar, and the year it was introduced to us, IIRC.

rating: 0-10 - range indication increasing skill, elegance and sophistication in choice of lure, presentation and handling of the target once hooked.


Thanks for rating the argument. Now that you have given your opinion about my argument, how about saying something substantive instead?

You know, on another thread a big deal was made about my calling into question the lead post and I got pretty well banged up about it.

Interesting that all either you or issodhos can post on this thread are critiques of my skills at arguing.

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 01:28 AM

 Originally Posted By: Allen Owen

Before everyone goes crazy and decides capitalism is the problem, remember that all these nice things we have here in the US are a result of capitalism. By nice things I mean iPods, computers of various types, big screen TV's, etc. Crap no-one really needs, but they are dang nice to have. \:\)


--They're dang nice to have and they'd look a lot different and cost a helluva lot more for a helluva lot longer time if it hadn't been for one very much unappreciated LIBERAL idea:

The Space Race.

Had we not taken JFK up on his challenge to put a man on the moon by the close of the decade, NASA wouldn't have inspired the government to contribute the kind of heavy lifting needed to make development of 95 percent of today's microprocessor technology possible, which in turn made all the things you listed above possible.

Nope, our progress in that vein would have more closely resembled that of the Soviet Union, who were more than happy to continue relying on vacuum tube technology for decades afterward.

The internet, which is powered by trillions of microprocessors which themselves are the equivalent of trillions of trillions of transistors, which are the equivalent of trillions of trillions of vacuum tubes, would most likely outweigh the Earth itself in the sum of its aggregate computer parts and require the total energy output of The Sun.

And there would be no room left for human or animal habitation because each personal computer would require several acres worth of space.

And it would be fine for the libertarians, because "the market will develop this stuff when there is a demand for it", and
"private industry should not have to fund development without assured profit and government has no business making the rest of us pay for development either".

Microprocessor technology would be to Big Tech what increased fuel efficiency is to The Big Three automakers!
And we'd still be arguing about why the industry is so resistant to changing with the needs of the times, only we'd be arguing BY TELETYPE!

While watching our 21 inch RCA roundscreen "X-ray Special" TV sets with a color gamut somewhere between faded green and orange, 480 X 335 resolution and a tiny 3-inch monaural speaker.

Only the round screen would be "flat", so that it would "look" modern!

No thanks...I like it when government does the heavy lifting that benefits America as a whole across the board.
The only place I don't like it is when it gets injected into 7th century societies with the notion of "implanting Western values".
That has not worked out so well.

We'd be far better off if the radical Islamic states were still functioning in the vacuum tube era, and we had just let them keep their oil while we developed solar, nuclear, wind...
and fuel efficient diesel-electric hybrid vehicles.

Let THEM be the libertarians.
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 01:33 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
So Ron, you admit it is all true. Thanks.

No, Phil, I admit to no such thing, any more than I'd admit to Issodhos being irresponsible in leading off with a Buchanan piece in his "roots" thread.

 Quote:
Or just don't have the stomach for a discussion?

I've done only a quick-read of it, however, I find that much of what is stated about the libertarian philosophy does not square with my own understanding of those principles, nor with the beliefs of the rather small number of libertarians with who I am acquainted.

I'm an [old-style | principled | paleo-] conservative, and that means I do share to a lot of their philosophy; however, I'm not sure if I understand all parts of it well enough to be defending it.

However, I perceive that the person you really want an exchange with is Issodhos, the one person here clearly identifiable as a libertarian; thus, the flame-bait title and my still-standing YOTF rating of 2.
Posted by: Allen Owen

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 01:49 AM

NASA built the space program with the help of: Private industry and Nazi engineers "liberated" from Germany. I've read some libertarians argue that the space program was a complete waste of time and money. I don't agree with that, since the USSR was a threat and there was no way the US could not get involved. It was a matter of national security at the time. Now, we are starting to see space become privatized somewhat. There is a company in California that has a contract to launch cargo rockets to the ISS and of course there is Bigelow Aerospace, the guys who wanna put a hotel in orbit. And Virgin Galactic as well. A mix is necessary and I think what is being described as libertarian is an example of some of the more extreme ideas that have come out of that philosophy. Not everyone who is libertarian falls into that mold.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 02:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: Mellowicious

I think it is that concept - that a discussion or debate involves a lure (or perhaps bait) and getting hooked (or snared, perhaps) that some might find less than straightforward; most of us would rather be the fisher than the fished - even better, to converse without checking for lures.



I, also, would much rather engage in a disinterested and co-operative search for truth, rather than attempt to catch and eat other human beings. But I will not hold my breath waiting for others to join me in my noble goals.

It may surprise some people that I have a great deal of sympathy for Libertarianism and its goals; I would wish it great success if.... Ah, yes, IF! Frankly, it makes me feel like a frustrated lover. As I get close to Libertarianism, I start finding it repellent, even a little frightening! There is an element of fanaticism about it, a blinkered vision, an inability to let complex reality interfere with the quasi-religious dogma Libertarians embrace. They seem only to see the (very real) sins of government, and to ignore sins which would arise from other centers of power, once the dragon of Big Government is slain. (I think principally of the power of Mega-Business and other centers of financial power)

As long as Libertarians are so narrow-minded and obsessive, I must part company with them. If people do not have a sense of balance in their political views, I think they are dangerous.

Although I like political theory, I am very suspicious of it. Ideally, I think politics should be an experimental science; that it should start with a variety of small scale models, that the bugs should be worked out before political procedures are scaled up to wide scale application. Above all, there should be flexibility, an awareness that there are "different strokes for different folks," there is no "one size fits all" in human affairs, and above all, circumstances change, and we should change with them.

But what do we see in history? People with inflexible theories, who are easy prey for scoundrels who flatter them; rigid and fossilized social institutions that fight tooth-and-nail to protect parasitic and narrow interests.

Nothing changes until there is a catastrophic crisis, and then everything changes, without the careful thought and preparation that should precede political change. Chaos, waste, and incredible suffering are then inevitable.

Really, how can I have any respect for most humans, when they are so incredibly stupid not to see facts that are so blindingly obvious!
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 02:50 AM

 Originally Posted By: numan
...I think politics should be an experimental science...

Is that what the US government and its constitution is, an extended experiment?
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 03:39 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
...
Thanks for rating the argument. Now that you have given your opinion about my argument, how about saying something substantive instead?

Okay. Do any of the writers actually say that libertarianism causes stupidity? I do not believe that they did; thus it would appear that your post title was purely to inflame and bait.

No, I do not have a problem with you trying to bait Issodhos. After all, I believe it was your opinion that he was trying to bait others. So, it's that goose/gander thing. Also, I doubt seriously that Issodhos is overly concerned that you appear to be trying to bait Issodhos.

 Quote:
You know, on another thread a big deal was made about my calling into question the lead post and I got pretty well banged up about it.

I believe my concern was not with the lead post per se, but rather what you and others were trying to say it said about Issodhos.

 Quote:
Interesting that all either you or issodhos can post on this thread are critiques of my skills at arguing.

I can't speak for Issodhos; however, as stated elsewhere in this thread, I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable of the breadth of libertairian philosophy to be qualified to conduct a general defense of it.

 Quote:
I take that as an open admission that you got nothing.

In this case, I'm nothing but a strawman for you to hold up as an excellent (non)example of a libertarian. Perhaps you can point out where I claimed to be one?

 Quote:
As I say, libertarianism is crap put forth without good intentions by people who have no real world experience or responsibilities.

That's a rather broad and irresponsible statement to make, isn't it...considering that you know nothing of Issodhos except what he's mentioned here. Isn't that what is called the fallacy of hasty generalization?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 03:40 AM

 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
I'm an [old-style | principled | paleo-] conservative, and that means I do share to a lot of their philosophy; however, I'm not sure if I understand all parts of it well enough to be defending it.
That's OK by me, Ron, because I have lost all faith in conservatism as a relevant political philosophy too... ;\)
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 04:30 AM

Yeah it is an over reach, and I am deleting that. Thanks.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 04:38 AM

I beliewve,Ron, that the thread is a title from the first link. While it may have been a deliberate provocation, it was the basis for the thread.

And, numan, where I think you go wrong in your perception/analysis is failing to consider that the structure of the constitution is itself designed to prevent precisely the kind of descent into anarchy that you posit.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 04:45 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

And, numan, where I think you go wrong in your perception/analysis is failing to consider that the structure of the constitution is itself designed to prevent precisely the kind of descent into anarchy that you posit.



I marvel that, at this late date, you imagine that the Constitution is preventing a descent into anarchy.

-
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 04:48 AM

 Originally Posted By: california rick

Is that what the US government and its constitution is, an extended experiment?



It is an extended failed experiment!

-
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 04:55 AM

 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
However, I perceive that the person you really want an exchange with is Issodhos, the one person here clearly identifiable as a libertarian; thus, the flame-bait title and my still-standing YOTF rating of 2.


No doubt, Ron. And I will probably agree to be Phil's "huckleberry" in this thread, but at the moment I am still intrigued with and mentally dwelling on the "rootedness" - "blood and soil" thing. One thing I find somewhat humorous is the claim by some that they are here to cooperatively seek Truth, when in reality, anyone who has been on the Internet and sought to interact on that level quickly found that what such claimants almost always really mean is that they are eager to join a choir that will re-enforce their own thoughts without meaningful critique.:-)
Yours in "il gran rifiuto",
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 05:22 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
However, I perceive that the person you really want an exchange with is Issodhos, the one person here clearly identifiable as a libertarian; thus, the flame-bait title and my still-standing YOTF rating of 2.


No doubt, Ron. And I will probably agree to be Phil's "huckleberry" in this thread, but at the moment I am still intrigued with and mentally dwelling on the "rootedness" - "blood and soil" thing. One thing I find somewhat humorous is the claim by some that they are here to cooperatively seek Truth, when in reality, anyone who has been on the Internet and sought to interact on that level quickly found that what such claimants almost always really mean is that they are eager to join a choir that will re-enforce their own thoughts without meaningful critique.:-)
Yours in "il gran rifiuto",
Issodhos


Off topic, please return to the topic of this thread

Moderator and thread starter.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 06:19 AM

 Originally Posted By: Allen Owen
NASA built the space program with the help of: Private industry and Nazi engineers "liberated" from Germany.


Yes absolutely but it took the government, at Kennedy's behest, to do the heavy lifting in order FOR "private industry" to move on it, so you're missing my point entirely.
Tell me what YOU think would have become of the moon race had the government just sat back and said "let's see the market take care of development".
Posted by: AustinRanter

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 11:10 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
AustinRanter, I did not mention any party. As issodhos has correctly pointed out, libertarianism is quite a different thing from the Libertarian party.

I call into question the entire philosophical/political underpinnings of the libertarians.


Sorry, Phil...

Guess I missed the gist. But, let me change my comment to:

Democratism - Republicanism - Libertarianism = Surrendering One's Ability to Engage in Free Thinking

And just for grins...throw in any other "political ism" on the left side of the equation and the equation still works.

I know, I know...now it appears that I've injected "anarchyism" into the topic. On this day of May 2009, our nation is so ismed out...I can't tell which is worse.
Posted by: Allen Owen

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 11:23 AM

Probably nothing would have happened. Not much profit could be gained by landing some guys on the moon and having them gather samples. Until technology can make mining minerals on the moon and elsewhere viable, most companies are going to stay right here on earth. Some aspects of libertarianism make me just shake my head, like privatized roads, privatized law enforcement(shudder). Privatized prisons(double shudder). Some things don't need to be privatized. Some things can't be privatized because there is no way to make money performing those tasks, and therefore will not get done. Prisons don't need to be privatized, even though I suspect that has already happened, since we have so many people in prison now. What I fear we are seeing develop here in the USA is an unholy alliance with big business and big government. Our freedoms and rights get in the way of their profits and must be eliminated. Nothing personal, just business.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 11:51 AM

from what i can see, libertariansim would reduce the amout of govt created problems. problems often created by attempts to make changes or fix other problems.

however a changeover to libertarianism would lead to a host of new problems in itself, and leave us with no formal mechansims to attempt to resolve common problems.

the philosophy of libertarianism is very useful to inform action, it provides a very neccessary counterbalance, but i think that a society based on it would not work.

or at least it has never been adequately explained how it might work. I would appreiate it if it could be explained by the adherents of libertarianism.


how would common problems be resolved?
how would the free market be kept free from being distorted? Surely any structures or mechanisms created in this new society would dsitort the market.
how would say the route of a road or the location of a hospital be decided upon?
How would such a society protect itself?
How would its laws (however few) be enforced? - in essence how would the violence of the state be managed.
On what basis would limited resources be distributed?
How would the weak/defenceless/destitute people be catered for?

Im would also be very interested in how people who wish to have democratic involvement in the economy, in how decisions are made etc are to be reconciled with this new society without it being forced upon them.

As there are no real world examples of a libertarian society* this would indeed be a thought experiment, and any answers arsing from these questions would be purely hypothetical, so im not looking for exact details. Im also not saying that existing systems dont have major problems with all of the above, but im not willing to take a leap of faith on somethign different without some kind of benefit!

and yes, it is me you have to convince! How else will the libertarian utopia be created without convincing people of its merits? I cant be forced into it without libertarians crapping all over their own philosophy.

Im seeking a more general understanding of how such a society/economy/polity would work. But until there are some reasonable answers to the above questions, im afraid libertarianism as a practical philosphy for the basis of a society/community remains a utopian fantasy. We have had these discussions before, but never once has it been adequately explained.

*The closest i can think of is some of the anarchist communities that arose during the Spanish Civil War.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 12:27 PM

Because I was posting on my non-desktop computer, yesterday, I didn't get a chance to get to the parts that I agreed with you on, numan. I particularly agreed with your assessment of political theory, your suspicion of it, and your assertion that
 Originally Posted By: numan
politics should be an experimental science; that it should start with a variety of small scale models, that the bugs should be worked out before political procedures are scaled up to wide scale application. Above all, there should be flexibility, an awareness that there are "different strokes for different folks," there is no "one size fits all" in human affairs, and above all, circumstances change, and we should change with them.

But what do we see in history? People with inflexible theories, who are easy prey for scoundrels who flatter them; rigid and fossilized social institutions that fight tooth-and-nail to protect parasitic and narrow interests.
I happen to disagree with your assessment of the Constitution and its role in our political success as a people, but I fundamentally agree with these assertions and that it is a mix of systems that create success. I simply believe that the framework of our Constitution has been far more successful than others, and especially the parliamentary systems you appear so fond of. They are close kin, but I think a system of regularized period elections is more effective than one where the government can be toppled on a whim of the electorate. We forget that the Constitution has had some significant adjustments over the years - direct election of Senators and the President, expansion of suffrage, extension of Bill of Rights protections - but have become afraid of making further adjustments. Yes, there are flaws, but there is no other system that has proved more robust.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 03:15 PM

 Originally Posted By: Allen Owen
Probably nothing would have happened.
Until technology can make mining minerals on the moon and elsewhere viable, most companies are going to stay right here on earth.


---And in a typically strange libertarian game of "chicken or egg" that technology wouldn't be possible UNTIL man went to the moon of course.
Hence...my post referring to house sized "personal computers" and old vacuum tube TV sets.
Technology has benefitted from the very LIBERAL idea of dreaming about landing on the moon, and from the very LIBERAL idea of having government lend a hand to do heavy lifting when it benefits the nation as a whole across the board.

Tis true that this is also an "unholy alliance between big business and big government", but like all things there is a good side as well as a bad side.

It's the human factor that determines which comes into play.
Hence my conclusion that politics is not about people, not about nations, not about race or religion, not about left or right, not about ideologies, not about belief systems, but about specific PERSONS and their specific histories.
It is specific persons who make politics either good or bad.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 04:30 PM

-

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

I simply believe that the framework of our Constitution has been far more successful than others, and especially the parliamentary systems you appear so fond of. They are close kin, but I think a system of regularized period elections is more effective than one where the government can be toppled on a whim of the electorate.



I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to have some strange notions about parliamentary systems.

I know of no parliamentary system that can "be toppled on a whim of the electorate." All parliamentary systems are indirect democracies --- just as is the system of government of the USA. Governments can only fall by a majority vote of the representatives in the legislature, or by the resignation of the government, which usually leads to a general election.

Wikipedia: PARLIAMENT

The conservative part of me strongly supports indirect democracy. Just as much as the John Birchers and the Founding Fathers of the US Constitution, I distrust the "mob" and its fickle, empty-headedness.

In this respect I agree with the instigators of the American Rebellion, though I like to point out the Founding Fathers' anti-democratic statements, in order to provide a much-needed antidote to the semi-religious veneration which so many Americans feel toward that pack of scoundrels and traitors.


P.S. I am not so sure that the direct election of Senators, nor the holding of referenda, as they presently are conducted, constitute an improvement in the American system of government.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/15/09 05:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler

Hence...my post referring to house sized "personal computers" and old vacuum tube TV sets.



Do not be too hasty in holding vacuum tubes in contempt.

I know a number of audiophiles, and I have a good friend who is a brilliant audio engineer. They use almost nothing but vacuum tubes. They still provide superior sound reproduction compared to transistors. They maintain the linearity of the original signal far better than, in general, transistors will ever be able to do.

I can barely endure listening to "the finest products of modern sound reproduction." In comparison with the high-end audiophile systems of my engineer friend, there is enormous distortion of the original signal, and the comparative flatness of the dynamics make it a torture to listen to the expensive transistorized sound systems, which the brainwashing of advertising propaganda makes people think are so wonderful --- in direct contradiction to what their ears actually hear!

The control of the minds of the masses can scarcely go further, once hypnotic suggestion can obliterate and replace direct sensory perception.

Moreover, vacuum tubes are much more resistant to "electromagnetic pulse warfare." Enemy attack could easily fry the circuits of our modern electronics --- and then where would we be? The USA does not manufacture vacuum tubes any more --- unless it is being done in some secret military program. The Russians and the Chinese have not been so foolish.

Even worse, if we wanted to manufacture vacuum tubes of the quality produced in the 1930's and '40's, we could not do so. In most cases, the specifications and plans for the high-quality electronic products of that period have disappeared, been scattered, and destroyed. We would need to re-invent vacuum tubes almost from scratch.

Progress is not always forward; it can, and frequently does, go backward. Valuable information can be, for all practical purposes, irretrievably lost.

"You don't know what you've lost till it's gone."

-
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:17 AM


Okay, Phil, let us begin by me once again stating my general political philosophy as well as my economic philosophy. As I have stated before, I am strongly influenced by libertarian thought and subscribe to political Individualism Vs political collectivism. I am supportive of natural rights and limited government. As to economics, I am supportive of free markets and favor the Austrian School of economics. In general, I identify strongly with classical liberalism, root of today’s libertarian thought. It was the liberalism borne of the Enlightenment and espoused and practiced in the early days of our country. I have no problem being referred to as a libertarian, but I do have a difference of opinion on some issues (which is to be expected), and I am not an anarcho-capitalist.

The first thing that might help those who know nothing of libertarianism is to understand that it is a political philosophy – not an economic or a social philosophy. It is based on the relationship of the individual to the state. This begins with political Individualism, which holds that the individual is the owner of his or her personhood – not the state. It is the opposite of the millennia old belief that the individual is ultimately the property of the state, king, tyrant, and etc. to do with as it wishes.

A fundamental tenet of libertarian thought is that no one, including the state, has the right to initiate aggression against another except in self-defense or the defense of an innocent. This is supported by another fundamental tenet of libertarian thought, which is that man has natural rights.

Most, if not all, of this stuff has been addressed in previous threads, but I’ll be your huckleberry – up to a point. What would you like me to try answering?:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:21 AM

 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
In word, Libertarianism = Somalia.

Even in the best of all imaginable worlds, libertarianism equals a ridiculous fantasy with every man to his own mountaintop valhalla, surrounded by a moat and machine guns.

And that valhalla had better be off the grid too, mate.


In three words, Checkerboard. You are incorrect.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:29 AM

In three words, Issodhos: that's your opinion.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:33 AM

 Originally Posted By: 2wins
as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much.


There is nothing in libertarian philosophy that would prevent a voluntary association of individuals engaging collectively in an activity. If you wish to have a gardening collective made up of individuals who freely chose to participate in it, your and their right to freedom of association would be recognized.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:48 AM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
Libertarianism is a good theory with one small fatal flaw(in my opinion) It can't work unless everyone is identical.


Because everyone is not indentical, I think libertarianism's opposition to initiating aggression, its recognition of unalienable natural rights, and its natural social tolerance for others makes it more workable.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 05:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In three words, Issodhos: that's your opinion.


In four words, NW Ponderer: That's my informed opinion.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 05:19 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
In word, Libertarianism = Somalia.

Even in the best of all imaginable worlds, libertarianism equals a ridiculous fantasy with every man to his own mountaintop valhalla, surrounded by a moat and machine guns.

And that valhalla had better be off the grid too, mate.


In three words, Checkerboard. You are incorrect.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


The difference may seem obvious to you, but less so to others. Perhaps you could review the salient points of distinction that you see .

Thx
Ardy
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 10:00 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Libertarianism is a good theory with one small fatal flaw(in my opinion) It can't work unless everyone is identical.


Because everyone is not indentical, I think libertarianism's opposition to initiating aggression, its recognition of unalienable natural rights, and its natural social tolerance for others makes it more workable.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


in theory, communism is quite workable
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 10:37 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much.


There is nothing in libertarian philosophy that would prevent a voluntary association of individuals engaging collectively in an activity. If you wish to have a gardening collective made up of individuals who freely chose to participate in it, your and their right to freedom of association would be recognized.
Yours,
Issodhos
i have read the histories of alternative communities, the true anarchists, and it seems that with each attempt, the groups involved in these experiments are undone by their desire to each have it his or her own way. in the end, they have all gone their own way. conversely, the community or collectivist experiments that seem to work more effectively are those in which common agreements are struck, a core principle is put in place that allows the communities to work in concert. within each system you work with a series of individuals, and personalities, and desires. but with a shared agreement - shall we call them laws? - a social contract, if you will, these groups coexist more effectively, imo.

all of that said, as schlack points out, communism, is also workable. the problem with any system, outside of disagreements over principles, is the human element. i, for example, do not have enough faith in humanity to see a true anarchist, cooperative society, work. neither do i see a the extreme on the other end of the spectrum work. it seems that in the middle, with a set of agreements, complicated as they become, society functions together, in a more pointed direction, with a greater purpose, the perpetuation of said society. of course there will always be those who put themselves outside the system in play, complaining that they have better answer. perhaps these individuals can never be satisfied.

outside of that, selfish individuals in any system are the downfall. an individualist society would work fine, i would concede, if you were working with a group of selfless minded folks. but that is a rare beast.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 11:10 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Libertarianism is a good theory with one small fatal flaw(in my opinion) It can't work unless everyone is identical.


Because everyone is not indentical, I think libertarianism's opposition to initiating aggression, its recognition of unalienable natural rights, and its natural social tolerance for others makes it more workable.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Again, I find no flaws with the theory and was writing a bit tongue in cheek. After all, this isn't my ball game or my thread.
My point was that if everyone shared your views then your theory of government and economics(the two are really one) would work admirably. That can't be said of all political/economic theories since most others are more top or bottom heavy and require an occasional "flip" to keep them rolling.
Over the years and through many thousands of posts, you have attempted to share your views with us, to show us on occasion that there is a different viewpoint from merely right or left. You seem a kind and gentle man, intelligent and educated, articulate and well read and yet you fail almost every time to make lightbulbs come on over our heads.
From the treatise presented at the beginning of this thread I gather that other Libertarians are having exactly the same problem. We, here, are generally an open minded group, many are very well educated in a variety of fields. I have no education whatsoever and can barely link words together to form a sentence, still I manage to absorb some of the simpler concepts presented here. I think most of us are opposed to initiating aggression, agree with you that we have inalienable natural rights, and are reasonably socially tolerant. How is it that Libertarianism can work if the concept cannot even be explained without invoking anger and misunderstanding? We seem to agree with all the basic tenets of libertarianism while at the same time we disagree with all the basic tenets of libertarianism. I call it Shrodingers Square peg.

The other possibility is that you invoke the anger and misunderstanding intentionally, I'd rather not even consider the possibility but the thought has arisen elsewhere. If such is the case and libertarians everywhere are doing the same then, my friend, Libertarianism can never be more than a crackpot scheme, with lots of fancy words and theories that only you can understand.
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 11:30 AM

iss,

how about you give us a straight forward argument as to why we would be better off existing under the principles of libertarianism. in your own words. what say you?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 12:11 PM

2wins, I already understand how if everyone agreed to be a libertarian that the system should work. The Constitution of the United States would remain firmly in place, thus anrchy would not prevail. What I fail to understand is how it could ever possibly come about. In another thread I offered up a small nation as a sort of thought experiment where Issodhos could explain from the beginning how a libertarian government could be achieved, he hasn't had time to reply to that but I do look forward to discussing it with him.. I also look forward to his reply to your query. Perhaps we make too many demands on his limited online time though....
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 03:58 PM

I'd like to step past the luring/baiting and have a 'real' conversation too about Libertarianism.

As a person who aligned myself with the Green party for many years (and still hold those ideals) and worked with Libertarians on mutual causes such as ballot access, what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)? I am asking from the standpoint of people who don't have the means to pay for private school or health insurance or can support themselves (feed and cloth) without an income.

Your big post above, Greger, is well put and speaks my mind. Thank you.
Much anger and resentment has been aimed at the Green Party too. I know I've been the butt of it plenty of times.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:02 PM

It seems to me that selfishness/self-interests is a biologically inbuilt part of human nature. Fundamentally, we all want more; we all feel that our lives would be better "if only" we could have more of something or other.

For me, libertarianism is mostly an intellectual rationale to help justify and support our continual desire for "more."

Every ongoing personal relationship requires that the individuals must constantly struggle with resolving their own individual interest when it is in conflict with the interests of the other... or the relationship.

And, to a larger degree, I feel that there is an inevitable tension in the social contract where every individual will feel that he/she should have more... and that he/she has less because of what is (inappropriately) going to other(s).

And, IMO, libertarianism provides the perfectly honed intellectual rationale to explain why I should have more as a sanctified natural right... as opposed to mere personal greed.

As far as I can tell, in any arrangement of society, there will always be people who feel they have been deprived and are entitled to "more." I think that cannot exist a society where libertarians would not make their arguments to support a reduction in "social oppression" in favor a fuller expression of "natural rights".

The argument of libertarianism seems to imply that there exists some idealized social structure that would (almost scientifically) resolve all tension and conflict by correctly attributing all rights and goods according to natural law. IMO, this would be less possible than having a human couple with no augments or disputes between them.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:45 PM

I might be a libertarian at heart, I might be a socialist. Politically I'm pretty ambiguous, whatever works is good by me. My inner socialist says this tribe, 300 million strong, like any other tribe, when traveling across the plains, the stronger help the weaker, the wealthy help the poor. If I have an inner libertarian he says no laws need be written to force this to occur.
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:51 PM

I think maybe you're right in general, Ardy
I don't strive for more "stuff" for myself assuming that is mostly what you're talking about because I'm doing fine in that regard now.
But I do wish more people who don't have daily needs met could have more because I think it makes my and my family's world safer and a more enriched place to live.
I'm not at all trying to be snarky toward libertarians but I do believe that is a major difference in my philosophy and that of Isso's. I can't be sure of course unless he responds though.

I know I painted a broad picture that will probably leave me open to whatever but I'll deal with that later if it's an issue.
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 04:53 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
...the stronger help the weaker, the wealthy help the poor. If I have an inner libertarian he says no laws need be written to force this to occur.
maybe I"m a closet libertarian then too, Greger. I wish that could be true.
History shows otherwise.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 05:14 PM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: Greger
...the stronger help the weaker, the wealthy help the poor. If I have an inner libertarian he says no laws need be written to force this to occur.
maybe I"m a closet libertarian then too, Greger. I wish that could be true.
History shows otherwise.


I think that not only history shows.... but also any study of the societies of our near animal relatives.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 05:28 PM

 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: Greger
...the stronger help the weaker, the wealthy help the poor. If I have an inner libertarian he says no laws need be written to force this to occur.
maybe I"m a closet libertarian then too, Greger. I wish that could be true.
History shows otherwise.


I think that not only history shows.... but also any study of the societies of our near animal relatives.


And that, to my notion, Ardy and Olyve, is the fatal flaw in Libertarianism. Equality must be enforced by law or this is what will happen.
 Quote:
Chickens have a rigid social structure called the “pecking order” by which every bird establishes who is dominant and who is submissive in relationship to every other bird. Dominant birds peck at submissive birds, pluck their feathers, and may chase them away or steal their food. Submissive birds will not peck back and will usually run from the dominant birds. Anytime a bird is added or subtracted from the flock, even if it is only a well-known bird that has been temporarily removed and then returned to the group, the entire flock will fight briefly to re-establish the pecking order. Flocks of greater than 15 birds can lead to excessive fighting and less productivity. Males should not be kept together as they will often fight each other and may even sexually abuse or kill the weaker birds.
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 06:29 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
2wins, I already understand how if everyone agreed to be a libertarian that the system should work. The Constitution of the United States would remain firmly in place, thus anrchy would not prevail. What I fail to understand is how it could ever possibly come about. In another thread I offered up a small nation as a sort of thought experiment where Issodhos could explain from the beginning how a libertarian government could be achieved, he hasn't had time to reply to that but I do look forward to discussing it with him.. I also look forward to his reply to your query. Perhaps we make too many demands on his limited online time though....
i think he likes the attention.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 07:57 PM

 Originally Posted By: Ardy

It seems to me that selfishness/self-interests is a biologically inbuilt part of human nature. Fundamentally, we all want more; we all feel that our lives would be better "if only" we could have more of something or other.



I disagree very strongly with that statement.

Anthropology, and history, and even a cursory examination of the psychology of many individuals in our own society, show that such is not always, or even usually, the case in human societies.

Modern Westerners, and especially brainwashed American consumers, often fall for the line that is constantly being pushed at them, that their lives will only be complete if they have more of this, that, and the other thing.

That just shows where they are from!

It is intellectual slovenliness to assume that what is true of us, or the people around us, is true of all people and all situations.

-
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 08:41 PM

 Originally Posted By: numan

Modern Westerners, and especially brainwashed American consumers, often fall for the line that is constantly being pushed at them, that their lives will only be complete if they have more of this, that, and the other thing.
I agree with that.
I also believe that with wealth comes the responsibility to give back to the society that enabled said wealth.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 09:09 PM

 Originally Posted By: numan
 Originally Posted By: Ardy

It seems to me that selfishness/self-interests is a biologically inbuilt part of human nature. Fundamentally, we all want more; we all feel that our lives would be better "if only" we could have more of something or other.



I disagree very strongly with that statement.


I was making a glib generalization based upon what I see of the behavior of our pets... and (foolishly) extended such observations to humans making the assumption that humans were similar sorts of animals. I also foolishly watched television nature programs where it always seems that animals are always trying to steal from on another. I read book by an author studying some great apes in Africa... and foolishly thought his description of the behaviour of our near animal relatives might have some relevance to our own behaviour patterns.

After reading your posting, I understand that we are not what so ever like other animals.

 Quote:
It is intellectual slovenliness to assume that what is true of us, or the people around us, is true of all people and all situations.


I also apologize for making a general statement that could be interpreted to mean that the factor I mentioned is always and only the exclusive determinant of human behavior. I had frankly not considered the possiblity that anyone might consider my comments to be so universal in application.

Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 09:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: numan

Modern Westerners, and especially brainwashed American consumers, often fall for the line that is constantly being pushed at them, that their lives will only be complete if they have more of this, that, and the other thing.
I agree with that.
I also believe that with wealth comes the responsibility to give back to the society that enabled said wealth.


Olyve...
As far as I am aware, greed is not restricted to the human animal. I also believe that greed has existed among humans for a time period that extends far into the distant past and across many cultures. And, for those reasons, I personally do not conclude that the origin of greed in humans is entirely attibutable to social brainwashing.
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 11:50 PM

I agree greed is universal and not at all new and not "entirely attributable to brain washing" but I do believe that America has taken it to a new level in recent years though.

My friend in England's husband owns a car repair shop in a resort region of northern England. He has seen one Hummer in the 6 years since I have known her.

I think we have an incredible sense of entitlement in this country that really blows my mind and I certainly do think advertisement and 24 hour news stations have contributed to that.
That whole "American Way" thing.
President Bush urged us to "stimulate the economy" by going out and shopping.
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 10:40 PM

But...
The way I took your original posting about self interest and wanting more being inherent as it applies to Libertarianism, is that we all feel if one segment is getting something we're not (welfare moms for example) that is somehow threatening what we have?
When we pay a higher tax rate than someone, the government is stealing from us to give to someone else?
Someone is drawing disability and therefore doesn't have to go to work because of mental illness, that person is siphoning off from me?

Are those reasonable examples of what you mean, Ardy?

I see these actions as leveling the playing field for those to whom the system wasn't as kind to as I.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/16/09 11:58 PM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
But...
The way I took your original posting about self interest and wanting more being inherent as it applies to Libertarianism, is that we all feel if one segment is getting something we're not (welfare moms for example) that is somehow threatening what we have?

I would say this...
I personally have never met a person who would claim they have never felt the emotion of resentment. Different people feel this emotion in different circumstances. Some people are more inclined to feel the emotion when the hear of some government welfare program for the "undeserving" poor.... others are more inclined to feel resentment when executives at AIG get bonuses.


 Quote:

When we pay a higher tax rate than someone, the government is stealing from us to give to someone else?
Someone is drawing disability and therefore doesn't have to go to work because of mental illness, that person is siphoning off from me?

Are those reasonable examples of what you mean, Ardy?

Yes, those are reasonable examples... although I think the resentment probably elaborates the fantasy so that each of those individuals has no "real problem: other than not wanting to work.
 Quote:


I see these actions as leveling the playing field for those to whom the system wasn't as kind to as I.


Although I mostly agree with your final conclusion, I may disagree with your logic to get there. I think many of the people who need help have contributed to their own situation. Or, possibly they have been raised in a social circumstance where they have learned poor habits... or not learned good habits.

I do not think that helping a person should be contingent upon a prior judgement that the "system" was not fair to this person. IMO a person who has made mistakes contributing to their own desperate situation is never the less worthy of being helped. ... even if the playing field was level for them and they just blew it.

I think that if there is a God who could look into our hearts... he/she would see that we have all sinned and fallen short. He would see that perhaps some of us were lucky that we did not kill anyone when we drove drunk... or what ever it was that we have done that we are not real proud of today.
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 01:27 AM

Ardy,
I do understand and have been around many people who feel that the "undeserving poor" are responsible for the ills of this country.
That bites my shorts big time.

That's not directed at you.
That philosophy in this country though just makes me want to cry.

Poor people who manage through great odds to figure out how to break the system cheat the government/us of hundreds of dollars...gosh maybe even thousands, are not the problem.

Those that contribute to their own problem know no other way. They were born into those conditions that keep perpetuating.
Health care/education.

How would you feel when even now they say you've got opportunities but you really don't?

Ardy there is a whole lot of unfair playing ground going on.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 01:59 AM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
Ardy,
I do understand and have been around many people who feel that the "undeserving poor" are responsible for the ills of this country.
That bites my shorts big time.
I agree
 Quote:


Ardy there is a whole lot of unfair playing ground going on.


I agree... on he other hand that factor is not the only factor that creates poverty and misery. Some of those other factors include counterproductive individual decisions.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 02:30 AM

ism
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 03:12 AM

Apparently, though I have offered to be Phil's huckleberry, he is not yet ready to, in his words, "man up" and engage me in discussion over his concerns with libertarian induced stupidity, so I will attempt to address as many posts from others that I can -- though most questions/comments are the same that have been addressed in this forum by me before.

A few general comments: libertarianism does not mean an absence of government, law, or the rule-of-law. It is not a libertine paradigm nor is it a chaotic state. I can only atttribute such views to willful ignorance or someone having watched one too many showings of "Water World".:-)

Anarchism, whether anarcho-capitalism or socialist anarchism, assumes and advocates a stateless or near-stateless society. Anarcho-capitalism is a minority off-shoot of libertarian thought. Try not to intentionally use it as a strawman, as I will not defend a position I do not hold. And lastly, please do not take it personally if my responses are somewhat blunt, as there is only so much time and the same questions can only be answered so many times before it becomes an exercise in futility.

One more thing. I have mentioned several times that the human critter is a sloppy, fuzzy critter. Those who would demand from me a advocacy for a utopia or a perfection of any sort from libertarian or any other philosophy have not read my past postings and may have some difficulties with a comprehension of the world in which we live.

Yours in laid-back, easygoing, live-and-let-live mellowtude,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 03:56 AM

 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
In word, Libertarianism = Somalia.

Even in the best of all imaginable worlds, libertarianism equals a ridiculous fantasy with every man to his own mountaintop valhalla, surrounded by a moat and machine guns.

And that valhalla had better be off the grid too, mate.


In three words, Checkerboard. You are incorrect.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


The difference may seem obvious to you, but less so to others. Perhaps you could review the salient points of distinction that you see .

Thx
Ardy


From what I am able to discern from reports concerning Somalia, it is currently a lawless region with various warlords engaging in turf wars who show no respect for an individual's rights, including the individual's right to self-ownership. There is nothing libertarian about such a state of existence.

As to the valhalla and moat crap, that may characterize survivalists, but the only thing about it that would relate to libertarian thought is that a fellow wishing to live that way would be free to do so as long as he or she did not violate the rights of others.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 04:08 AM

 Originally Posted By: 2wins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much.


There is nothing in libertarian philosophy that would prevent a voluntary association of individuals engaging collectively in an activity. If you wish to have a gardening collective made up of individuals who freely chose to participate in it, your and their right to freedom of association would be recognized.
Yours,
Issodhos
i have read the histories of alternative communities, the true anarchists, and it seems that with each attempt, the groups involved in these experiments are undone by their desire to each have it his or her own way. in the end, they have all gone their own way. conversely, the community or collectivist experiments that seem to work more effectively are those in which common agreements are struck, a core principle is put in place that allows the communities to work in concert. within each system you work with a series of individuals, and personalities, and desires. but with a shared agreement - shall we call them laws? - a social contract, if you will, these groups coexist more effectively, imo.


No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 05:03 AM

 Quote:
No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos


Wouldn't the failure of a city such as New York or Los Angeles be pretty catastrophic? I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fail", but if you mean the breaking apart of the economic, legal and social system, allowing the "freedom" of all to participate in forming a new system, then the costs of failure could be incalculable.

It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.

Now, obviously it is possible for humans to infect any system with their greed and avarice, but this balancing necessarily is imprecise and exactly the reason for the balanced design of the Constitutional framers. It is all imperfect and always will be.

My "reasonable" taking would maybe be stealing to you. I can get that, and I appreciate engaging with you in this discussion.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 05:13 AM

[quote=Schlack]
how would common problems be resolved?

You will have to be more specific as to what you mean by "common problems".

how would the free market be kept free from being distorted? Surely any structures or mechanisms created in this new society would dsitort the market.

Distortions of the market are those acts that cause a systemic misallocation of resources or an attempted abrogation of economic laws. Occasional or isolated distortions are going to happen in the imperfect world we live in. Let us not pretend that free markets would eliminate all bumps and dips in the economy, or that advocates of free markets claim it would.

how would say the route of a road or the location of a hospital be decided upon?

A hospital would negotiate with a landowner for a location it would like. We basically have roads to everywhere, today. If another road is wanted, its route could be purchased from willing sellers.

How would such a society protect itself?

Protect itself from what?

How would its laws (however few) be enforced? - in essence how would the violence of the state be managed.

There would still be a judiciary and there would still be a policing force. The two are not incompatible with libertarian political philosophy. Because the state is violence, anarchists advocate its complete elimination on the belief that its violence cannot be long restrained. Libertarians seek to put more shackles on it in the hope that its violence can be reduced from its current near totalitarian levels. One step for doing so is stripping the state of its monetary monopoly. Another is by decriminalizing most acts that do not apply to the violation of individual and property rights. Another is disbanding agencies such as the DEA, BATF, IRS, and greatly reducing what police forces can and cannot do.


On what basis would limited resources be distributed?

Be more specific.


How would the weak/defenceless/destitute people be catered for?

What do you mean by, "catered for"?

Im would also be very interested in how people who wish to have democratic involvement in the economy, in how decisions are made etc are to be reconciled with this new society without it being forced upon them.

What do you mean by "democratic involvement in the economy"? What specifically do you think would be forced on us?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 12:26 PM

Thanks, Issodhos, for attempting to answer some of the questions.
It appears that the difference between the current political philosophy infecting our governing body and the actual nuts and bolts operation of a governing body influenced by Libertarianism wouldn't really be that great. Depending on how far back in our current history a hypothetical swing towards Libertarianism occurred, the Sept 11 attack probably never would have happened because our government wouldn't have meddled so much in other governments to create the animosity responsible for the attack.
If the attack did occur, rather than starting two useless wars in a mockery of retributive justice, we would have appealed to the international community to help us bring these criminals to justice. The monolithic and ridiculous Homeland Security Boondoggle would never have been created, the wars would not have sapped the economy, airports would operate as they were intended and life would be ticking along marvelously.

Taxation, very obviously is a necessity required for government to operate and infrastructure to be built and maintained. A simple flat tax would probably replace the huge and incomprehensible tax code we have now. All those thousands of pages replaced with this: "All profits private or business shall be taxed at a rate of 10%" No exemptions no "non profits' no nothing. The same for everyone. A 1% sales tax might also be factored in, I'm not trying to guess at an ultimate solution, simply to posit a few examples.

These are visions of my own American Quasi-Utopia, I don't know if they fit within the paradigms of Libertarianism but I would like to see some sort of sensible ism adopted to achieve positive goals rather than the somewhat negative consequences of almost everything achieved by federal government in the last few decades.

Shlack, has asked how the poor, old, or sick might be cared for, once again I'm guessing but our smaller government, no longer encumbered with massive, complicated, and unnecessary
legislation, would establish a "poverty level" and subsidize those unable (not unwilling) to achieve it. Subsidizing Multi billion dollar multi national corporations would be a thing of the past. Lobbying for legislation that would give one group of individuals an advantage over another group of individuals would also be a thing of the past.

Oh Crap, is Libertarianism Making me stupid?
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 04:52 PM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
He has seen one Hummer in the 6 years since I have known her.


Perhaps he needs a girlfriend.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 04:55 PM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 05:39 PM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Quote:
No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos


Wouldn't the failure of a city such as New York or Los Angeles be pretty catastrophic? I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fail", but if you mean the breaking apart of the economic, legal and social system, allowing the "freedom" of all to participate in forming a new system, then the costs of failure could be incalculable.


In the manner in which the term is being used, neither New York nor Los Angeles are "alternative" communities, Phil. Nor am I speaking of a "breaking apart" of our current system. A libertarian-oriented nation would require gradual and incremental change of the society we currently endure. For example, using the current system to persuade enough citizens to support the decriminalization of recreational drug usage. That one action alone would be a boon to personal liberty -- reducing incarceration rates, destroyed lifes, police license to intrude, corruption, and huge reductions in penal, policing, and judiciary costs.



 Quote:
It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.

You will need to be more specific and more definitive as to what you mean here before I can hope to understand it enough to attempt and answer, Phil.
Yours,
Issodhos
Ps. A side note: I think New York and LA, among other major cities (Detroit comes to mind), are already, and have for quite some time, been "failed" communities that actually would, relatively speaking, conform to Checkerboard's Somalia comparison. Many are just slow or unable to recognize it because they view such dysfunctional constructs as being normal.
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 05:47 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
He has seen one Hummer in the 6 years since I have known her.


Perhaps he needs a girlfriend.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 06:09 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
I very much do, Issodhos.
Basic education, health care and assistance to those unable to feed themselves is essential to a healthy and safer society in my opinion and I don't mind doing my part to pay for it.

I don't support a flat tax like Greger is suggesting though. That is a regressive tax.

But yes I do support paying taxes proportionate to my income though for the social services that I mentioned. I don't believe that can be done in the private sector adequately and affordable.
I think that's already been proven.

What is the Libertarian position on those issues...education, health care and disabled people?
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 06:15 PM

-

It has occasionally passed through my mind that at least some so-called "Libertarians" are just shills for big money and power.

I have yet to come across a Libertarian who has dealt seriously with the power of mega-corporations and other sources of the tyranny of big money, which would inevitably arise in the society they are proposing.

I am sure that Issodhos has a healthy contempt for utopianism, but Libertarianism sure looks like utopianism to me; it is just too simple, neat and Bentham-esque. The real world is much more complex than the simplistic solutions which Libertarianism allow for --- not to mention the complexity of human beings, and their talent for getting around and corrupting the neat paradigms of social reformers.

-
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 06:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
I very much do, Issodhos.
Basic education, health care and assistance to those unable to feed themselves is essential to a healthy and safer society in my opinion and I don't mind doing my part to pay for it.


Then you would not hesitate to voluntarilly contribute the money currently taken from you by government taxation, to be spent on these things you support, for those who could not afford them?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 07:29 PM

It would have been highly unlikely that a libertarian-influenced foreign policy of cultural exchange and trade with people of other nations (note that I wrote "with people", not "with nations")would have resulted in attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. If it had occurred anyway, then it would have been treated as a criminal action and handled accordingly. Intelligence ties and cooperation with other nations would have been used to identify and arrest those responsible. Though libertarianism opposes the initiation of aggression, it is not pacifistic. So, if a country would not turn over those identified as being responsible for such an attack and other attacks are anticipated, covert or overt military or paramilitary methods for bringing an end to such a thread would not be rejected.

Subsidies to businesses would cease, as would subsidies to many other entities (e.g., state and local governments, favored special interest groups, alternative energy hustles, etc.)

Such police-state entities like Homeland Security and other intrusive and suppressive policing actions meant to increase control over the citizenry would cease to exist under a libertarian-influenced society because there would be no government-caused need for it and the government would be too small for other power structures to enlist it for its own benefit(e.g., corporations).
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 08:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos

Subsidies to businesses would cease, as would subsidies to many other entities (e.g., state and local governments, favored special interest groups, alternative energy hustles, etc.)



It appears that Issodhos' sole safeguard against the tyranny of mega-business and money power reaching intolerable levels is to end government subsidies to them!

As if that would work!

The history of the past two centuries is filled with examples of the rise of money power in the absence of subsidies from government.

Abuse of power generally flows from money interests having undue influence in government, not vice versa!

Issodhos' libertarian program, as it now stands, would simply expand that influence and power to horrifying levels.

-
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 08:39 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
I very much do, Issodhos.
Basic education, health care and assistance to those unable to feed themselves is essential to a healthy and safer society in my opinion and I don't mind doing my part to pay for it.


Then you would not hesitate to voluntarilly contribute the money currently taken from you by government taxation, to be spent on these things you support, for those who could not afford them?
Yours,
Issodhos
Far be it from me to be suspicious, Isso but is this a trick question?
It seems to me that you're asking the same thing again.
Yes I do voluntarily pay taxes and wish more of them would go to pay for social programs I've mentioned.

Rich people who manage to avoid paying taxes piss me off so no I'm not going to advocate that I pay and others who don't care about the same things I do, don't.
I'm paying for plenty that I don't support...like the war. Like big bail outs.

But this thread is about what you believe in, not me. What is the Libertarian approach to these issues?
Posted by: EmmaG

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 08:41 PM

Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 08:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Quote:
No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos


Wouldn't the failure of a city such as New York or Los Angeles be pretty catastrophic? I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fail", but if you mean the breaking apart of the economic, legal and social system, allowing the "freedom" of all to participate in forming a new system, then the costs of failure could be incalculable.


In the manner in which the term is being used, neither New York nor Los Angeles are "alternative" communities, Phil. Nor am I speaking of a "breaking apart" of our current system. A libertarian-oriented nation would require gradual and incremental change of the society we currently endure. For example, using the current system to persuade enough citizens to support the decriminalization of recreational drug usage. That one action alone would be a boon to personal liberty -- reducing incarceration rates, destroyed lifes, police license to intrude, corruption, and huge reductions in penal, policing, and judiciary costs.


I did not see that you had limited your comment to alternative communities, so I wasn't attempting to raise a different topic. In the same sense that Los Angeles, etc, are failed cities, I think it could be said that every part of society but for a very few very small groupings -- and we would differ as to which those were -- is a failed community.

That is the nature of the human experience, but some failures have a bigger impact than others, and some with respect to more people. For example, for a commune of 20 or even 200 people fails, the impact is far less than if police, fire, health services, garbage, highway construction and repair, etc. all were allowed to fail in the major metro areas.

As for a gradual "freeing" of such a megalopolis, aren't the devils in the details? I think you might even get the Obama administration to use that mantra to cover their wealth manipulations.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Quote:
It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.

You will need to be more specific and more definitive as to what you mean here before I can hope to understand it enough to attempt and answer, Phil.
Yours,
Issodho

Well I do not want to give specific instances of what I consider to be appropriate "takings", because that would divert this thread into a discussion of those suggestions, and I am not interested in this thread going in that direction.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Ps. A side note: I think New York and LA, among other major cities (Detroit comes to mind), are already, and have for quite some time, been "failed" communities that actually would, relatively speaking, conform to Checkerboard's Somalia comparison. Many are just slow or unable to recognize it because they view such dysfunctional constructs as being normal.


I like to think of our world as the light/energy projected from an unknowable source in an infinity of directions, within which we are the temporary scrim of existence. In that sense of the ball rolling downhill, everything is a step ahead or behind failure, again, to me that is the essence of the human experience.

Now if you want to discuss specifically about the failure or non-failure of one or more cities, I would ask that it be done on a different thread. It is also possible to discuss such failures in the more abstract context as it might apply to the relative effectiveness of libertarian principles to deal with such failures.
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 08:43 PM

What is the Libertarian solution or way to deal with poverty and the problems it presents?
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 09:00 PM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
What is the Libertarian solution or way to deal with poverty and the problems it presents?


Perhaps the England of Charles Dickens provides a good model?

As I understand it, everyone takes care of their own problems.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 10:33 PM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
I very much do, Issodhos.
Basic education, health care and assistance to those unable to feed themselves is essential to a healthy and safer society in my opinion and I don't mind doing my part to pay for it.


Then you would not hesitate to voluntarilly contribute the money currently taken from you by government taxation, to be spent on these things you support, for those who could not afford them?
Yours,
Issodhos
Far be it from me to be suspicious, Isso but is this a trick question?
It seems to me that you're asking the same thing again.
Yes I do voluntarily pay taxes and wish more of them would go to pay for social programs I've mentioned.

Rich people who manage to avoid paying taxes piss me off so no I'm not going to advocate that I pay and others who don't care about the same things I do, don't.
I'm paying for plenty that I don't support...like the war. Like big bail outs.


No, it is not a trick question, olyve, and no, you do not "voluntarilly" pay your taxes. You are not even given the opportunity to "voluntarily" pay your taxes. If you refuse to pay them you will be taken to court and ordered to pay them plus penalties and interest or go to jail.

In answering the question in the affirmative, you have indicated that you would contribute the same amount of money (or more, if enough of your tax burden were eliminated) to support assistance programs run by private charities that you consider worthy. Unless you consider yourself superior in compassion to others, there is no reason to think that others would not also provide financial and other assistance to those in need. Of course, you and others would find yourselves at liberty to freely choose what charitable programs of assistance you think worthy of your support based on what their purpose is and how efficient they are at delivering that support. In other words, a power co-opted by the state would be returned to its rightful source -- you.

As to paying for things you do not support, they are happening under the current system that you prefer to keep -- with minor tweaking by you as to who gets how much -- a collectivist-based system which continues to fail to improve the condition of those for whom you express concern. Indeed, the groups of people you reference seem to be increasing yearly.

It should also be noted that "bail outs" would not take place in a libertarian-influenced society, and elective wars would be difficult to launch because the monetary system (through the government created Federal Reserve, fiat money, and fractional banking) would no longer be an extention of the government for purposes of financing its power-accreting programs and wars. These are things that take place under the system you continue to support. It is time for change. Yes we can!!;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 10:59 PM

 Originally Posted By: numan
 Originally Posted By: issodhos

Subsidies to businesses would cease, as would subsidies to many other entities (e.g., state and local governments, favored special interest groups, alternative energy hustles, etc.)

It appears that Issodhos' sole safeguard against the tyranny of mega-business and money power reaching intolerable levels is to end government subsidies to them!


Eliminating subsudies to "mega-business" has nothing to do with engaging in self-indulgent schemes for controlling "money power", numan. It has to do with taking away a factor that distorts the market, provides unfair advantage to some businesses and industries, and puts into the hands of pols a tool for fostering corruption.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 09:54 PM

Point taken on the word "voluntarily", Isso.
I pay my taxes and don't cheat is what I meant.

Thanks for the explanation of how you would deal with social issues that I mentioned.
I'm wondering about the administration of education, health care and disability but I'm sure you want that to be in the private sector regardless so I won't go there.

The problems are too huge for charity now.
That's been tried and failed.
That is essentially what you had (Libertarianism) pre social programs of FDR.
I point to the Gilded Age and the Great Depression.

Have you ever read "The Grapes of Wrath?"

 Quote:
As to paying for things you do not support, they are happening under the current system that you prefer to keep -- with minor tweaking by you as to who gets how much -- a collectivist-based system which continues to fail to improve the condition of those for whom you express concern. Indeed, the groups of people you reference seem to be increasing yearly.
I agree it's happening now.
I do not prefer to keep the system we have now.
As an example....I prefer to stop the war and use the money to have Medicare from birth.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 10:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Unless you consider yourself superior in compassion to others, there is no reason to think that others would not also provide financial and other assistance to those in need. Of course, you and others would find yourselves at liberty to freely choose what charitable programs of assistance you think worthy of your support based on what their purpose is and how efficient they are at delivering that support. In other words, a power co-opted by the state would be returned to its rightful source -- you.


Well, probably Olyve is a few leagues ahead of most in terms of voluntary giving. In fact, you have highlighted one of the problems with libertarian "solutions", they fail to take into account reality.

The people who can most afford to give things of value to those who have too little to survive or survive with dignity do not always share their wealth, do they? And if we take away the tax incentive, we might suspect that they would not be as voluntary as you predict.

Furthermore, charities discriminate. There is not an even spread of charities for all those who might have needs, and what is to be done of those left out because no charity is available or willing to assist?

It seems to me libertarians dodge the cold hard fact that many would simply be left to die. You cannot have a midway point on this. Either there is some government program to support those who would otherwise have none in your "voluntary charity" system or they are left to flounder and die. If there is even a small such government program, eventually it will morph into the "collectivism" you so demonize.

Furthermore, what is voluntary about employment. What a crock of crap that is. Do you really contend that workers, no matter how high up the ladder they are, actually volunteer to do what they have to do and volunteer to do it for, say, minimum wage? Do you contend that people voluntarily accept $15 per hour, or $10,000 per month even, rather than get paid what high rollers get? You live in a fantasy world if you think that is voluntary.

No, life is a series of dance steps to moderate between coercion and enjoyment, good and bad, things you like and much you don't. What I have read from those who post here and elsewhere in favor of libertarian ideals reminds me of the "clarity" with which I saw life as a young person. So many obvious answers and so few experiences to temper them.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
As to paying for things you do not support, they are happening under the current system that you prefer to keep -- with minor tweaking by you as to who gets how much -- a collectivist-based system which continues to fail to improve the condition of those for whom you express concern. Indeed, the groups of people you reference seem to be increasing yearly.

It should also be noted that "bail outs" would not take place in a libertarian-influenced society, and elective wars would be difficult to launch because the monetary system (through the government created Federal Reserve, fiat money, and fractional banking) would no longer be an extention of the government for purposes of financing its power-accreting programs and wars. These are things that take place under the system you continue to support. It is time for change. Yes we can!!;-)
Yours,
Issodhos


I take it that this post collectivist world would be populated by something other than humans. Else how can this world come about and who would inhabit it? Humans do not make intelligent decisions most of the time much less peaceable ones.
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/17/09 11:25 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much.


There is nothing in libertarian philosophy that would prevent a voluntary association of individuals engaging collectively in an activity. If you wish to have a gardening collective made up of individuals who freely chose to participate in it, your and their right to freedom of association would be recognized.
Yours,
Issodhos
i have read the histories of alternative communities, the true anarchists, and it seems that with each attempt, the groups involved in these experiments are undone by their desire to each have it his or her own way. in the end, they have all gone their own way. conversely, the community or collectivist experiments that seem to work more effectively are those in which common agreements are struck, a core principle is put in place that allows the communities to work in concert. within each system you work with a series of individuals, and personalities, and desires. but with a shared agreement - shall we call them laws? - a social contract, if you will, these groups coexist more effectively, imo.


No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos
perhaps i should be more clear.
 Quote:
Individualist anarchism comprises several traditions[38] which hold that "individual conscience and the pursuit of self-interest should not be constrained by any collective body or public authority."[39] Individualist anarchism is supportive of property being held privately, unlike the social/socialist/collectivist/communitarian wing which advocates common ownership.[40] Individualist anarchism has been espoused by individuals such as Max Stirner, William Godwin,[41] Henry David Thoreau,[42] Josiah Warren and Murray Rothbard.[43][44][45]
what i refer to originates from this tradition. please show me where this is not associated with the position you are advocating.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 01:58 AM

 Originally Posted By: olyve
The problems are too huge for charity now.
That's been tried and failed.
That is essentially what you had (Libertarianism) pre social programs of FDR.
I point to the Gilded Age and the Great Depression.


What has been tried and continues to fail is the collectivist system you support, olyve. You basically acknowledge its failure by stating that the "problems are too hugh" now. If the system of social programs and other government actions were working, there would be less of a problem now. And no, libertarianism was not how the nation's political system functioned during the periods you specify.

 Quote:
I agree it's happening now.
I do not prefer to keep the system we have now.
As an example....I prefer to stop the war and use the money to have Medicare from birth.


That is the system we have now. You simply want to redirect some of the money to your preferred programs -- or to be specific, direct the money of others to programs you support.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 02:17 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
That is the nature of the human experience, but some failures have a bigger impact than others, and some with respect to more people. For example, for a commune of 20 or even 200 people fails, the impact is far less than if police, fire, health services, garbage, highway construction and repair, etc. all were allowed to fail in the major metro areas.


As I wrote earlier, the shift to a libertarian-oriented system would have to be gradual and in increments. The system you have supported has done way too much damage to suddenly switch to a libertarian system. We are, of course, assuming that the damage done can even be undone.

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.


 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Well I do not want to give specific instances of what I consider to be appropriate "takings", because that would divert this thread into a discussion of those suggestions, and I am not interested in this thread going in that direction.

Well then, you will need to explain what you are tip-toeing around in a way that I can understand, Phil.

 Quote:
Now if you want to discuss specifically about the failure or non-failure of one or more cities, I would ask that it be done on a different thread.

It was you, not me that injected failing cities into the thread, Phil.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 02:32 AM

 Originally Posted By: 2wins
[/quote]perhaps i should be more clear.
 Quote:
Individualist anarchism comprises several traditions[38] which hold that "individual conscience and the pursuit of self-interest should not be constrained by any collective body or public authority."[39] Individualist anarchism is supportive of property being held privately, unlike the social/socialist/collectivist/communitarian wing which advocates common ownership.[40] Individualist anarchism has been espoused by individuals such as Max Stirner, William Godwin,[41] Henry David Thoreau,[42] Josiah Warren and Murray Rothbard.[43][44][45]
what i refer to originates from this tradition. please show me where this is not associated with the position you are advocating.

The forms of anarchism you list are systems where all governmental functions are replaced by private entities. That would include courts, police, firefighters, roads, etc. The libertarian philosophy I am strongly influenced by sees the proper function of government as securing and protecting the rights of the individual -- and that most definitely includes his property rights. This requires courts, police, and a military. This is where libertarianism in general parts way with various form of anarchistic philosophy. That does not mean that libertarian thought does not recognize the inherent threat of government. Will I have to continue to repeat this, 2wins?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 02:37 AM

Expecting everyone to suddenly begin voluntarily giving up funds is where things must be changed gradually. That is why I suggested the flat tax and/or sales tax. I honestly don't know that the human animal has it in him to give enough voluntarily to support even the small government you imagine Issodhos. That is the flaw I keep running into, and the stumbling block that may be impossible to get over. Why insist on purity though? The system you are speaking of is a libertarian based society, not a Libertarian Utopia. Since we are all greedy beasts at heart I'm afraid at least some gentle coercion will always be required to keep the government coffers full. They wont be able to just print more money whenever they need it any more. Maybe a few generations down the road even those props could be kicked out from under the government.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 04:17 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Well, probably Olyve is a few leagues ahead of most in terms of voluntary giving. In fact, you have highlighted one of the problems with libertarian "solutions", they fail to take into account reality.

What I see is a history of failure on the part of the reactionary collectivist system that you support, Phil, generating more and more people in need of assistance for the basics regardless of how much money and how many new government programs are put into place. I see a nation that is on the verge of economic collapse as a result of your increasingly mixed and reactionary system, and I see a society that has been alienated from itself by the prattle of social engineers, pseudo-economists, modern ‘liberal’ victimization peddlers, and panderers to hate-filled identity politics. Your system has failed time and time again and the only response to its failure is to do the same thing over again. It is obvious that resolving issues is not the goal of such a system, but rather the acquisition of power and control over people and their property for the same old reason – greed for that which is not theirs to accomplish by force what they would not be able to do through persuasion. Your system is an ancient enslaving system. That is the reality, and regardless of your apparently low opinion of humans, it’s time for a change.

As to the rest of your post, put it into the form of an understandable question and I will attempt to address it to your satisfaction (though I am not sure where the “what is voluntary about employment” came from).
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 04:33 AM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
Expecting everyone to suddenly begin voluntarily giving up funds is where things must be changed gradually. That is why I suggested the flat tax and/or sales tax. I honestly don't know that the human animal has it in him to give enough voluntarily to support even the small government you imagine Issodhos.


The reduction in the monstrous size the government has grown into would take place before reductions in taxes would take place, Greger. As that happens, as programs and agencies are eliminated, and others are reduced (e.g., the military) the income tax and corporate tax will be reduced. the government itself would not be funded through voluntary contributions. Only private charities that take on the task of assisting those people in need of help would be voluntarilly funded by individual contributions. It is seriously wrong to portray Americans as not being willing to fund good programs. We do it everyday even while having extraordinary amounts of our earnings expropriated by the state in the form of taxes. The current political master/slave system, so popular for millinnia and supported so strongly by those whose greed leads them to use government force to separate others from their property, is a failure and needs to be replaced.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 04:39 AM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
Expecting everyone to suddenly begin voluntarily giving up funds is where things must be changed gradually.


IMO this raises the fundamental problem of the "Commons"

The illustration is usually proposed that there is a village where all residents can graze their sheep on a common pasture . The situation tends mostly towards over use and destruction of the common resource as every villager will feel entitled to added sheep

The reverse of the situation would apply to needs for shared sacrifice. Generally, sacrifice which depends upon voluntarism will often come up short of the need for the inverse reason that the shared commons tends toward over use.

Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 06:07 AM

There is a continuum of political "philosophies" that proceeds from anarchism to totalitarianism. Libertarianism happens to be one step right of anarchism (albeit a very short step), but that does not make it any more realistic as a governing philosophy. Indeed, that phrase is an oxymoron - it is not a "governing" philosophy. I note that while Issodhos, as apparently the only defender/explicator of libertarian philosophy participating (my sympathies, friend), has written much, and answered a number of comments, he has not provided much substance to respond to - or had no one actually noticed that? I don't mean to pick on you, Issodhos, just no one else taking your position.

There are no specifics, just generalized "philosophical" leanings, e.g.
 Quote:
police-state entities like Homeland Security and other intrusive and suppressive policing actions meant to increase control over the citizenry would cease to exist under a libertarian-influenced society because there would be no government-caused need for it
I'm sorry, security is a "government-caused need"? or
 Quote:
If the system of social programs and other government actions were working, there would be less of a problem now.
Nice platitudes, but really no substance. And the "intelligence agencies" that are going to cooperate, where do they come from? Indeed, I have found nothing of practical utility in any of the responses (and a great deal of avoidance and misdirection - like responding to questions with questions). I do understand why, and it goes back to Phil's original posts.

There have been a number of references to "libertarian-influenced" positions: because that is all it can be, an "influence." Like conservatism, it is not so much a political philosophy or organizing principle, but a reaction against. Mostly against government. Mostly against anything that provides for collective solutions, other than notional "voluntary" organizations (as opposed to any real-world organizations). Take for example, the problem of roads that was posited earlier, or hospitals. If we rely on people to "voluntarily" give up property, road systems would become unusable, and economically unsustainable. They would meander thither-and-yon as easements became available at the lowest cost, and the later in the process requests were made, the higher the value demanded for such easements would become until they became unavailable... and the road just stops there. Hospitals would be sited not based upon community utility, but based upon the profit incentives of particular land-owners. Prisons would find few takers at all. Fire stations might abound, but who would man them?

Issodhos has suggested that subsidies for local communities and States would be eliminated - which of course would lead to the disintegration of those communities who do not have natural economic bases from which to draw resources. There would be a race to the bottom in terms of granting of favorable terms to entice corporations to site in the community - something we have already experienced. Local businesses would be supplanted and eliminated by larger conglomerates, not because of greater efficiency or merit, but based upon size and influence. There would be no one to stop it.

The problem, in short, with the libertarian approach, and what makes it ultimately a failure as such, is that it never provides the countervailing interest, and indeed strips the means of local autonomy away entirely in the interest of economic/social "purity." I cannot identify a single area of public life where "libertarianism" would be a net positive. Taxation cannot be voluntary. Eliminate the IRS? Sure, who would collect taxes? Who would support the court system to protect those "inalienable" rights and property interests? Who would guard against corrupt practices? Who would provide police protection? How could the military be supported sufficiently to protect either local or national interests? There are no real solutions, because that is not the point of the philosophy. It is not about real-world solutions. It's all pie-in-the-sky naivete, and even less coherent than communism, which at least has a governing principle.

The only level of applicability of libertarianism is in the formation of clubs. Really, that is what it boils down to - the formation of clubs with similar interests. Beyond the few dozens, or generously, thousands of people who participate in such an organization, it has no teeth. The best exemplars I can think of are the Elks, the Rotary, and the VFW. While these may be laudable organizations, they hardly represent practical examples for governing say a million, 5 million or 300 million people - just picking the numbers out of the air as examples. That is why libertarianism quickly devolves into irrelevancy when applied to the real world.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 12:21 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
[quote=Schlack]
how would common problems be resolved?

You will have to be more specific as to what you mean by "common problems".

how would the free market be kept free from being distorted? Surely any structures or mechanisms created in this new society would dsitort the market.

Distortions of the market are those acts that cause a systemic misallocation of resources or an attempted abrogation of economic laws. Occasional or isolated distortions are going to happen in the imperfect world we live in. Let us not pretend that free markets would eliminate all bumps and dips in the economy, or that advocates of free markets claim it would.

how would say the route of a road or the location of a hospital be decided upon?

A hospital would negotiate with a landowner for a location it would like. We basically have roads to everywhere, today. If another road is wanted, its route could be purchased from willing sellers.

How would such a society protect itself?

Protect itself from what?

How would its laws (however few) be enforced? - in essence how would the violence of the state be managed.

There would still be a judiciary and there would still be a policing force. The two are not incompatible with libertarian political philosophy. Because the state is violence, anarchists advocate its complete elimination on the belief that its violence cannot be long restrained. Libertarians seek to put more shackles on it in the hope that its violence can be reduced from its current near totalitarian levels. One step for doing so is stripping the state of its monetary monopoly. Another is by decriminalizing most acts that do not apply to the violation of individual and property rights. Another is disbanding agencies such as the DEA, BATF, IRS, and greatly reducing what police forces can and cannot do.


On what basis would limited resources be distributed?

Be more specific.


How would the weak/defenceless/destitute people be catered for?

What do you mean by, "catered for"?

Im would also be very interested in how people who wish to have democratic involvement in the economy, in how decisions are made etc are to be reconciled with this new society without it being forced upon them.

What do you mean by "democratic involvement in the economy"? What specifically do you think would be forced on us?
Yours,
Issodhos


Thanks Issodhos, for attempting to come up with some asnwers.

I have a real word example that will cover some of your requests for clarification. and bear in mind i am no champion of current "solutions"

You will have to be more specific as to what you mean by "common problems".

On what basis would limited resources be distributed?

Be more specific.

How would the weak/defenceless/destitute people be catered for?

What do you mean by, "catered for"?.


Fish stocks in EU waters are rapidly depleting, its now a case of too many men chasing too few fish. Increased industrialisation of the process.

The depletion of fish stocks is a common problem as it threatens an important part of food supply.

There are those now who are being driven to destitution (and their families) with little hope of other local employment with the main asset (the boat and gear) now worthless. what is to become of them?

If no action is taken, in order to a) make profits or b) keep the head above water! fisherman, factory ships etc are going to keep fishing until the fish are gone.

the solution that is needed is a sustainable fish industry, that people can make a living from.

how is this c0mmon problem of limited resouces, and the consequences of inaction to be resolved through a libertarian framework.

(please note I am not codding you, I have no smart answers lying in wait to ambush you, and this is a though experiment so i wont carp on about your answers, I hope to be herring from you soon.)

 Quote:
A hospital would negotiate with a landowner for a location it would like. We basically have roads to everywhere, today. If another road is wanted, its route could be purchased from willing sellers.


aye and theres the rub, if a road is neccessary to connect pint A and point B through C, but C happens to be an unwilling seller. this could have the consequence of having (an even more) inefficient road system, cause more expense on the builders from rerouting, the planning process for the new route would delay further the building of the road. or if all sellers were unwilling no road at all.

(there are compulsory purchase orders here in Ireland - im not entirely in their favour)

 Quote:
Im would also be very interested in how people who wish to have democratic involvement in the economy, in how decisions are made etc are to be reconciled with this new society without it being forced upon them.

What do you mean by "democratic involvement in the economy"? What specifically do you think would be forced on us?


you answered this in another repsonse, with the incremental progression of libertarianism, but there will still be the unrepentant collectivists, one wonders how they will be dealt with.

 Quote:
Distortions of the market are those acts that cause a systemic misallocation of resources or an attempted abrogation of economic laws. Occasional or isolated distortions are going to happen in the imperfect world we live in. Let us not pretend that free markets would eliminate all bumps and dips in the economy, or that advocates of free markets claim it would.


this is the first time ive seen this said by you explicitly. I may have missed it, sorry if this is the case. so free market, not entirely free.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 12:46 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Your system has failed time and time again


hmmm, no successes?

public education, despite its problems, compared to what was in existence 150 years ago is not a success?

huge infratructural projects roads, dams (& the internets) are not successes?

public health systems, despite their problems, compared to what was in existence 150 years ago are not a success?

I must only assume that you are using an ideal as the yardstick rather than the past, to state that these are not successes.

it appears that collectivist solutions like the above, built on other peoples money as you say, only take the blame, and get no credit for their successes.

from what ive seen its policy itself is the problem, not poor policy or poorly executed policy.

well in fairness Ill take the problems created by policy that the problems taken by inaction.

yours collectively...
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 12:59 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
perhaps i should be more clear.
 Quote:
Individualist anarchism comprises several traditions[38] which hold that "individual conscience and the pursuit of self-interest should not be constrained by any collective body or public authority."[39] Individualist anarchism is supportive of property being held privately, unlike the social/socialist/collectivist/communitarian wing which advocates common ownership.[40] Individualist anarchism has been espoused by individuals such as Max Stirner, William Godwin,[41] Henry David Thoreau,[42] Josiah Warren and Murray Rothbard.[43][44][45]
what i refer to originates from this tradition. please show me where this is not associated with the position you are advocating.

The forms of anarchism you list are systems where all governmental functions are replaced by private entities. That would include courts, police, firefighters, roads, etc. The libertarian philosophy I am strongly influenced by sees the proper function of government as securing and protecting the rights of the individual -- and that most definitely includes his property rights. This requires courts, police, and a military. This is where libertarianism in general parts way with various form of anarchistic philosophy. That does not mean that libertarian thought does not recognize the inherent threat of government. Will I have to continue to repeat this, 2wins?
Yours,
Issodhos
[/quote]no, you won't have to repeat, iss, because this is the first time i have read a succinct, pointed summary of what you are attempting to get across. of course, there may have been other posts, but i missed those. now have a better idea of your core political belief, without all of the rhetoric you so enjoy. thank you.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 03:40 PM

Oh my, so this is "my system" now is it? And you just landed on the planet this morning? So we all know there are problems with the current system.

But the current system has brought great advances for most people until the past 15 years, when that started to reverse. But there is a vastly better safety net than existed 50 years ago, and none of that would have existed under a libertarian system.

For all the wonderful scenarios you posit, issodhos, it is clear that either you have a very cold heart or live inside illusions that can never come about. No matter how gradual the shift, it will never do more than kill and impoverish millions of people.
Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 03:47 PM

Thank you, Phil for that post (above) and for the one a couple of pages back that includes this quote...
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins

The people who can most afford to give things of value to those who have too little to survive or survive with dignity do not always share their wealth, do they? And if we take away the tax incentive, we might suspect that they would not be as voluntary as you predict.

Furthermore, charities discriminate.


Nods to NWP last post and Schlack's specifics he lists too.

As far as my mention of the problems being too huge now, several things have happened to make it that way.
Out of control medical costs and gutting and regulation come to mind.
It's not because we have government relief agencies in place now.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 03:49 PM

telling isnt it that two responses in this thread (me & mr(s?) wins) point to the fact that for the first time some clarity has been given on various points - unless of course we missed it.

Its a very welcome departure and much more conducive to debate. and kudos to Issodhos for continuing to be a lone individual voice in the collectivist wilderness!

no matter how poorly this thread started, it could have some value if it continues.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/18/09 06:11 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

The problem, in short, with the libertarian approach, and what makes it ultimately a failure as such, is that it never provides the countervailing interest....
There are no real solutions, because that is not the point of the philosophy.....

It is not about real-world solutions. It's all pie-in-the-sky naivete....



Very nicely argued, NWP.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 02:54 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Indeed, that phrase is an oxymoron - it is not a "governing" philosophy. I note that while Issodhos, as apparently the only defender/explicator of libertarian philosophy participating (my sympathies, friend), has written much, and answered a number of comments, he has not provided much substance to respond to - or had no one actually noticed that?

There are no specifics, just generalized "philosophical" leanings, e.g.


First, perhaps you need to get together with Phil and come to a decision as to whether you want specifics or general answers. Phil said he wanted no specifics, you claim I provide none. When you and Phil decide which way you want me to respond, let me know. I will then decide how I choose to answer.

That aside, your concern over libertarian thought not being a “governing” philosophy compared to the current master/slave system you currently support, NWP, could be clouding your objectivity. But, it would also be fair to say that a libertarian-oriented system, rather than being the reactionary top-down authoritarian type of governance we are currently immersed in, leaves much to the individual in the way of self-governance. This is a result of the expanded freedom and liberty an individual would enjoy as the old system is altered by libertarian principle.

As to a government-caused need for the Department of Homeland Security, actions have consequences. When we play in other people’s back yard, they sometimes decide to come over and play in our back yard. Actions do have consequences. A libertarian-based foreign policy would be focused on cultural exchange and trade in line with a policy of not initiating aggression against others. It is an adult way to interact with the world.

Also, I am using the terms, “libertarian-influenced” and “libertarian-oriented” in the hope that it will finally convey to you and others that I am not advocating a utopia. When I say the human critter is a sloppy critter, I mean it. He will not be perfection. He will not be identical in thought or capability. He has many vices. I am also using it to reinforce the idea that any move toward libertarian-influenced action must be incremental. I am not aware of any vanguard mentality within libertarian circles such as informs various collectivist theories.

As to the piffle about police, military, courts and such – I have written before and have now written several times in this single thread that we are not discussing and I am not advocating anarcho-capitalism, which advocates the complete elimination of government, so lets not go there again.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 04:37 AM

 Originally Posted By: Schlack
Fish stocks in EU waters are rapidly depleting, its now a case of too many men chasing too few fish. Increased industrialisation of the process.

The depletion of fish stocks is a common problem as it threatens an important part of food supply.

There are those now who are being driven to destitution (and their families) with little hope of other local employment with the main asset (the boat and gear) now worthless. what is to become of them?

If no action is taken, in order to a) make profits or b) keep the head above water! fisherman, factory ships etc are going to keep fishing until the fish are gone.

the solution that is needed is a sustainable fish industry, that people can make a living from.

how is this c0mmon problem of limited resouces, and the consequences of inaction to be resolved through a libertarian framework.


First, let me say that I enjoyed the pun (intended or not) “I hope to be herring from you soon.:-)
A libertarian solution would be based on property rights. The fishing area within the EU waters would be divided into specific sections and the commercial fishing rights to those sections would be auctioned at market price to fishermen. Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species. Just as a farmer seeks to leave a family farm to his son in better condition than it was when his father left it to him (yeah, I know, most farmers are guys), so too would the owner of the right to fish a specific piece of the EU waters want to leave it to his son or daughter better than when he purchased it (yes it would be inheritable private property).

 Quote:
aye and theres the rub, if a road is neccessary to connect pint A and point B through C, but C happens to be an unwilling seller. this could have the consequence of having (an even more) inefficient road system, cause more expense on the builders from rerouting, the planning process for the new route would delay further the building of the road. or if all sellers were unwilling no road at all.

I suspect we have more roads than we need, but, if someone wishes to have a road built to connect to a commercial, social, or other development site he will have to decide how much the road is worth and make his offer accordingly. If someone along the way does not want to sell her property at what he is offering, she will probably sell at a higher price. If not, or if her price is too steep his choice is to go around her or cancel the project. One less piece of the environment not paved over.:-)

If by “unrepentant collectivists”, you mean individuals who wish to live or engage in voluntary association, there is nothing to stop them from doing so. They would still be subject to the law of the land, but as long as they are not violating the rights of others, there is no problem. If you are referring to political collectivists who would wish to continue to subordinate the rights of others to the will of the state, they will just have to get over it and enjoy exercising their own liberty.

 Quote:
Distortions of the market are those acts that cause a systemic misallocation of resources or an attempted abrogation of economic laws. Occasional or isolated distortions are going to happen in the imperfect world we live in. Let us not pretend that free markets would eliminate all bumps and dips in the economy, or that advocates of free markets claim it would.


this is the first time ive seen this said by you explicitly. I may have missed it, sorry if this is the case. so free market, not entirely free.

That would be mistaking a free market for a perfect market, Schlack.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 04:45 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
No matter how gradual the shift, it will never do more than kill and impoverish millions of people.

The system you currently support has already done that, Phil -- many times over, and it continues to do so. It is time for a change.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 05:06 AM

Re: highways, issodhos, I take it you are going to repeal the 5th Amendment? Too collectivist for ya?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 05:46 AM

I am disappointed, Issodhos, but not surprised, that nothing you have responded with in your previous post is actually responsive to my post. I see assumptions, conjectures, excuses, and insults, but no substantive response. Let me be more explicit:
 Originally Posted By: Issodhos
That aside, your concern over libertarian thought not being a “governing” philosophy compared to the current master/slave system you currently support, NWP, could be clouding your objectivity.

Wow, in one sentence, a veritable treasure trove of fallacious argument (e.g., Nizkor Project - fallacies), misdirection (non-sequitur), aspersion (ad hominem), strawman... (See, 1, 13, 17, 23, 27, 41... impressive) - but I detect no substantive response. To which I respond: 1) I did not make a comparative claim (strawman/false dilemma); 2) There is nothing clouding my objectivity (ad hominem); 3) nor did I reference or subscribe to a "master/slave system" (non-sequitur/appeal to ridicule/false dilemma, etc., etc.)

I am interested in (and was discussing) effectiveness. I posited that nothing in "libertarianism" is effective - merely ephemeral. I still see nothing provided to rebut that, and I certainly appreciate the difficulty in doing so, as I reiterate - libertarianism is philosophically bereft of substance. I have no need to "get together with Phil" over my personal critique (which assertion appears to be a crude combination of ad hominem attack and guilt by association of some sort). I think I have provided plenty of specifics to which you could have responded but chose, instead to belittle, obfuscate, and elude rather than respond. Which leads to...

 Quote:
I will then decide how I choose to answer.
I never expected anything else. You can choose to answer or not, as I am free to critique whatever response is provided. I merely pointed out the lack of substance to the responses so far provided as indicative of the lack of substance to the underlying philosophy. As an approach, I opined that libertarianism is not prone to specificity, because individual problems - even relatively straightforward ones like roadways and hospitals - are too complex for the simplistic solutions that are "libertarian" in nature. My use of roadways and hospitals were merely specific exemplars demonstrating the point.

 Quote:
As to a government-caused need for the Department of Homeland Security, actions have consequences. When we play in other people’s back yard, they sometimes decide to come over and play in our back yard.
This is an amalgamation of causation fallacies. First, asserting that the DHS is "government caused," assuming without basis that there was no outside influence, asserting rather that it was only our "playing in other people's back yard" that inspired it, none of which is actually causally linked in any appreciable manner. This is followed by the leap to assert that a libertarian approach would be different because - "A libertarian-based foreign policy would be focused on cultural exchange and trade in line with a policy of not initiating aggression against others." Of course, that begs the question as to how that is unique from, for example, a liberal approach to foreign policy, or a traditionally conservative approach, or even an isolationist approach. Other than the Bush administration and other fascist-oriented (definitionally) regimes, aggression is not a hallmark of any other particular political philosophy.

 Quote:
As to the piffle about police, military, courts and such...
Piffle? I point out that the there is no effective way of engaging in these activities in a "libertarian" mode, and you deride that as piffle? AH, I understand.... because you have no substantive response, and prefer more ridicule to responsiveness?

Let me be succinct: I assert that libertarianism does not provide a practical solution to ordinary problems of human relations on either the micro (local governance) or macro (national governance) scale. I have provided specific examples of circumstances where I believe a libertarian approach can be demonstrated to be ineffective and impractical. I have yet to see identified a single example where that is not the case, ergo, libertarianism is an impracticable approach to human interaction/governance (outside of the formation of clubs). In short: It is a "nice idea" in theory, but has no practical application in the real world.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 12:06 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
A libertarian solution would be based on property rights. The fishing area within the EU waters would be divided into specific sections and the commercial fishing rights to those sections would be auctioned at market price to fishermen.


Thanks for engaging on this level, i repeat the proviso that this is a thought experiment, meant purely to explore how a libertarian orientated socienty might work. wil all the health warnings a Hypo should have.


Interesting response, so the sea should be divided up and owned. I can see in theory how this might be done but this does raise a host of new queries.


Doesnt this go against the entire notion of the freedom of the seas? which i believe is an extremely strong tradition. I cant see fishhermen either supporting or it it came to fruition, respecting it. This would be asking fishermen to pay for something that they already have for free. How is such opposition to be overcome?

who then would decide upon the divisions? doesnt this process automatically favour the stronger, richer and squeeze out the "normal joe" fisherman into the crappier fishing grounds.

Who would benifit from the monies created from this water sale?

Does the process of division and sale not create a huge opportunity for corruption and graft on an even greater scale than exists today? I mean look at the size of the seas involved - the quantities of monies this would generate would be staggering.

It would involve the state selling off the sea which is something the fishermen already "own" in common.

Who indeed would police it? and how would this policing be funded. look at the area to be policed, by no means an easy or cheap task. I dont think we could rely upon the essential goodness of people to respect property rights can we? oh sure the big winners of the water sale would be able to fund a navy force, but even that would be far too small for the scale of sea. Oh and this would have the knock on effect of creating a huge temptation on the part of Big Fish to use their private navy to expand their sea patches (arrrr matey)

 Quote:

Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species. Just as a farmer seeks to leave a family farm to his son in better condition than it was when his father left it to him (yeah, I know, most farmers are guys), so too would the owner of the right to fish a specific piece of the EU waters want to leave it to his son or daughter better than when he purchased it (yes it would be inheritable private property).


hmmmmm, the farmer analogy is interesting, shall we take a look at what beef farmers are doing in the ex-rainforest areas of south america, maximising the use of the land, overgrazing it, furthering the process of desertification begun by deforestation. They are in danger now of destroying the land that provides for them. Are they engaging in " treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season."? or with their maximised profits move on to another peice of available land.
why would fishermen act any differently unless forced?

This also brings up the policing aspect. there will be those who overfish and deplete stock in their patch. the temptation will always be there to stray intentionally or otherwise into anothers patch and destroy any good work that might have been done conservation wise.

I agree that the principle of leaving a sustainable fishing ground to be passed onto future generations would be a most excellent tradition to build, but as with now, i think the "bread today" principle would dominate.


 Quote:
I suspect we have more roads than we need, but, if someone wishes to have a road built to connect to a commercial, social, or other development site he will have to decide how much the road is worth and make his offer accordingly. If someone along the way does not want to sell her property at what he is offering, she will probably sell at a higher price. If not, or if her price is too steep his choice is to go around her or cancel the project. One less piece of the environment not paved over.:-)


so, no road built then. no matter how neccessary. okie dokie, at least thats clear.

(i do agree that we probably have too many roads - bring on the flying car!)

 Quote:
That would be mistaking a free market for a perfect market, Schlack.


again thanks for the clarity. well i think I can say i can accept a much more imperfect market than you. given the imperfections of man, probably more apprpriate!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 01:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.


--The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 02:53 PM

When I woke up this morning, I was feeling some guilt over venting my frustration in my last post and to make up for it, thought I had hit upon an example of successful libertarian enterprise to offer up - the toll road! Many early turnpikes and bridges were developed by private companies, which is a libertarian kind of concept, isn't it? Then, of course, as I started to research the topic, I discovered I was wrong. <sigh> Turns out they were all government-instituted monopolies...

Schlack's dissection of the fishing industry example turns out to be historically harmonic to the turnpike situation. The problem, I discovered, is that most such enterprises start with a governing authority granting a monopoly (large or small) by fiat. The concept of property rights, so central to libertarian thought, turns out to rest upon the creation of a "state" entity (with the coercive aspects inherent therein), which can then dictate the terms of such "ownership." In the absence of any kind of governing (coercive) authority, as exists in the open seas, each individual is free to take however many fish he wants, subject only to the existence of the fishery. This will continue until the fish stocks are depleted entirely. Schlack's discussion also brought me full-circle to the first response and Checkerboard's reference to Somalia...

If you think about it, the problem off Somalia is libertarianism in a microcosm. Here you have the "free market" at work. Pirates Entrepreneurs in Somalia have identified a means of making money and they are exploiting the local resource (Gulf of Aden) to get ransom money profits (call it a toll) from shippers transiting their locality. Shippers are willing to pay (willing buyers) to the Somali pirates entrepreneurs (willing sellers) for the privilege of using the waterway. Shippers have a choice - they can arm their ships and make it more difficult for the pirates entrepreneurs, but then the cost of ransom the toll will go up; they can ship further away and avoid the Gulf of Aden, but that will add to the expense of shipping, and, after all, only a small percentage of their shipping is subject to this free-lance toll process. This is pure libertarian market economics.

Anyone see any flaws in this example?
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 02:57 PM

 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.


--The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.


And.... the reality is that fish swim. If other fisherman do not have the same management practices, then all the fish will be gone for everyone.

This dynamic can be clearly seen in the enormous industrial fishing operations that are operated in the ocean. These ship drag giant nets that capture an kill everything. It works well for each ship.... but the practice is destroying the fishery.

Further example... lets say for purpose of discussion that there is in fact a problem that results from increasing atmospheric carbon gasses. Then there is no alternative other than to come to some arrangement where everyone addresses the problem. There is no way we can "own" the atmosphere over our own country and be indifferent to the atmosphere in the world at large.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 04:21 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
If you think about it, the problem off Somalia is libertarianism in a microcosm. Here you have the "free market" at work. Pirates Entrepreneurs in Somalia have identified a means of making money and they are exploiting the local resource (Gulf of Aden) to get ransom money profits (call it a toll) from shippers transiting their locality. Shippers are willing to pay (willing buyers) to the Somali pirates entrepreneurs (willing sellers) for the privilege of using the waterway. Shippers have a choice - they can arm their ships and make it more difficult for the pirates entrepreneurs, but then the cost of ransom the toll will go up; they can ship further away and avoid the Gulf of Aden, but that will add to the expense of shipping, and, after all, only a small percentage of their shipping is subject to this free-lance toll process. This is pure libertarian market economics.

Anyone see any flaws in this example?


Interestingly a lot of the pirates were originally fishermen who were fished out of a livlihood by large fishing companies, as somlaia was unable to defend its territorial waters and fishing grounds.

But i do see a problem using somalia as an example of ibertarianism in action. from what ive read from Isshodos, that there is agreement on the principles through which freedom of action is limited and limited though laws.

however Somalia is an anarchic laweless hell hole, pretty far from the ideal (sorry Isshodos) libertarian orientated society described.

Its the lack of laws and agreement i think are the main difference.

what the reality or consequences of libertarian orientated society would be is actually anyones guess. I share many peoples suspicions that it would be unworkable or would end up a Dickensian nightmare.

I share the suspicion that it could descend into a somalia (mad max) like situation, but then again germany was a democracy before it descended into madness.

I feel that libertarianism in itself holds enough contradictions and is based on too many assumptions to be able to argue against it comprehensively and successfully without smearing it with Somalia.

to me it smacks of rovian tactics*.


* now hows THAT for a backhanded smear?
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 08:26 PM

 Originally Posted By: Issodhos

That aside, your concern over libertarian thought not being a “governing” philosophy compared to the current master/slave system you currently support, NWP, could be clouding your objectivity.



 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

Wow, in one sentence, a veritable treasure trove of fallacious argument (e.g., Nizkor Project - fallacies), misdirection (non-sequitur), aspersion (ad hominem), strawman... (See, 1, 13, 17, 23, 27, 41... impressive) - but I detect no substantive response. To which I respond: 1) I did not make a comparative claim (strawman/false dilemma); 2) There is nothing clouding my objectivity (ad hominem); 3) nor did I reference or subscribe to a "master/slave system" (non-sequitur/appeal to ridicule/false dilemma, etc., etc.)



 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

If you think about it, the problem off Somalia is libertarianism in a microcosm. Here you have the "free market" at work. Pirates Entrepreneurs in Somalia have identified a means of making money and they are exploiting the local resource (Gulf of Aden) to get ransom money profits (call it a toll) from shippers transiting their locality. Shippers are willing to pay (willing buyers) to the Somali pirates entrepreneurs (willing sellers) for the privilege of using the waterway. Shippers have a choice - they can arm their ships and make it more difficult for the pirates entrepreneurs, but then the cost of ransom the toll will go up; they can ship further away and avoid the Gulf of Aden, but that will add to the expense of shipping, and, after all, only a small percentage of their shipping is subject to this free-lance toll process. This is pure libertarian market economics.

Anyone see any flaws in this example?





WELL DONE, NWP!

YOU ARE IN GOOD FORM!


 Originally Posted By: Schlack

Interestingly a lot of the pirates were originally fishermen who were fished out of a livlihood by large fishing companies, as somlaia was unable to defend its territorial waters and fishing grounds.

But i do see a problem using somalia as an example of ibertarianism in action. from what ive read from Isshodos, that there is agreement on the principles through which freedom of action is limited and limited though laws.

however Somalia is an anarchic laweless hell hole, pretty far from the ideal (sorry Isshodos) libertarian orientated society described.

Its the lack of laws and agreement i think are the main difference.

what the reality or consequences of libertarian orientated society would be is actually anyones guess. I share many peoples suspicions that it would be unworkable or would end up a Dickensian nightmare.

I share the suspicion that it could descend into a somalia (mad max) like situation....



It is inevitable that this Libertarian fantasy would descend into chaos.

Where in the world does Issodhos get the strange idea that people obey laws --- unless they are forced to?

And who, in the Cloud-Cuckooland of Libertarianism, is to enforce the laws? Obviously, they would be the people with the guns and the money!

Sound familiar?

Libertarianism might work if human beings were not the irrational, obsessive, short-sighted creatures that they are. They would need to be cool, clear-witted, maximizers of economic benefit for themselves, yet they would need to have enough social consciousness and identification with long-term goals to be able to keep an orderly society from breaking down.

It is superfluous to note that such paragons of humanity could make almost any political system flourish!

Indeed, the perfect humanity necessary to Libertarianism vaguely reminds me of another utopian ideal --- the "New Socialist Man" of the Communist paradise of Marx and Engels! ;\)

 Originally Posted By: Issodhos

A libertarian solution would be based on property rights.



Perhaps this is the core of the Libertarian fallacy. It is just a variation on the old shell-game of those with money and property --- BIG money and property!

In the Real World, there is a lot more to human society, and individual human life; but Libertarians are simple-minded folk, with simple-minded ideas, and their ideas about property are a hive of bees swarming in their bonnets, through whose buzzing confusion they cannot manage to see the world as it is.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 09:06 PM

Libertarianism comes in 31 different flavors, all starting with the basic idea that coercion is bad, especially if it is coercion by government. But after all, who doesn't think coercion is bad, especially if they are the one being coerced?

Beyond that single point of agreement, "Libertarians" go off in all political, social, and economic directions. Almost everything from Religion, to Communism, to Anarchy can be added over the basic "non-coercion" idea to yield yet another school of Libertarian Thought. And since all of them ignore the sordid fact that most humans need a little coercion so they don't crap where others eat, they are all unworkable.

Remember, we all start out as anarchists (as infants) and most of us get sufficiently "housebroken" so we become responsible adults. Even in the most liberal parent-child relationships, that process includes LOADS of coercion. And plenty of us never do become responsible adults, so the world also includes sociopaths, con-men, thieves, corporate CEOs, etc. who don't follow the internal rules for transparent and fair interactions that all would need in a Libertarian system.

You just can't get there from here, and even if you could it would be so unstable that it would revert back to a coercive system very quickly.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 09:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

You just can't get there from here, and even if you could it would be so unstable that it would revert back to a coercive system very quickly.



WHAT YOU SAID!

-
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 10:11 PM

I had an interesting discussion with my brother, who is a libertarian, this morning that included fishing, the "fair use" doctrine and property rights. (Where he and I have always agreed is that the primary role of government is to prevent individuals from interfering with the interests of other individuals... we just disagree over means, methods and degrees.) I see the fundamental premise of libertarianism as being an avoidance of coercive use of power - by the state, anyway. The first problem is, of course, that property rights do not exist in the absence of some state authority. The role of the "state," whatever its form, is to mediate differences between "citizens." More often than any other basis, the differences between citizens revolve around "property rights."

But what is a property right or interest? Do I have a property right in the air I breathe, the water I drink (or otherwise consume), the land upon which I place my feet, the invisible spectra of radiowaves? What prompts me to recognize such rights or interests in others? If I want it, what impells me not to take it? How can such rights be recognized, mediated, or even exist without the predicate of a "state"?

That is, I think, the foundational flaw of libertarianism. It is based upon the recognition of property interests as if they existed in absence of the state, yet such interest cannot be recognized or effectuated without reference to a state system. The "state" and "property" are inextricably linked. Failure of the premise requires failure of the conclusion.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 10:47 PM

I find it still more curious how rarely self-declared libertarians advocate moving away from societies that are highly structured and in which "the state" plays a pivotal role in most, if not all, aspects of life. Why, for example, don't they band together, buy any of the number of islands that are for sale around the world, and move there, where they can simply not establish a state? Curious.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/19/09 11:07 PM

Well put, NWP. This is the point at which issodhos have often crossed swords -- and he always mistates what I say.

Here is the thing, absent the state, it is who has the biggest gun. So far as I know, there is no God who grants deeds to property, it is a fictional system upon which we humans agreed eons ago to minimize fighting.

It isn't even an issue of whether the state grants property rights or not; the point is they guarantee and protect such rights which otherwise exist only to the extent one can defend them (which by the way, is true of all so-called rights, they are all creations of the state in the sense that without a state, the "right" is worthless)
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 01:24 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Re: highways, issodhos, I take it you are going to repeal the 5th Amendment? Too collectivist for ya?

I have long held that if an amendment to the Constitution increases individual freedom or increases the protection of individual rights, then it is a good thing. If it does the opposite, it is a bad thing. I would have no problem with amending the 5th Amendment to eliminate the last clause which implies a governmental entity has the authority to forcibly take private property for public use.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 01:30 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I am disappointed, Issodhos, but not surprised, that nothing you have responded with in your previous post is actually responsive to my post. I see assumptions, conjectures, excuses, and insults, but no substantive response.


I am sure you see what you want to see, NWP. Based on your previous post, you obviously either did not want to see, or intentionally ignored what I had written in earlier posts, and instead created a strawman with which to argue.

I think my previous response was more than your post merited, NWP.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 01:33 AM

 Originally Posted By: Schlack
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Your system has failed time and time again


hmmm, no successes?

public education, despite its problems, compared to what was in existence 150 years ago is not a success?


If you put my post into context you will see that I was referring to olyve’s questions about government-run social assistance programs, but I do consider government-run, taxpayer-funded public education to be an abysmal failure, unless it is measured by its ability to process and churn out semi-literate cogs conditioned to fill empty slots within the workforce while uncritically regurgitating the oppressed “victim” crap put into their heads by pedagogical dummies who serve as Useful Gullibles – then I guess one could say it has been an outstanding success.
Yours in bemusement,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 01:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: Schlack
Thanks for engaging on this level, i repeat the proviso that this is a thought experiment, meant purely to explore how a libertarian orientated socienty might work. wil all the health warnings a Hypo should have.


Interesting response, so the sea should be divided up and owned. I can see in theory how this might be done but this does raise a host of new queries.

No. If you refer back to what I wrote you will see that I said the commercial fishing rights for sections of the EU waters would be sold. Please remember that your request was for a libertarian solution to “a sustainable fish industry that people can make a living from”. It is the commercial fishing rights that would be owned, and then only in EU waters.

Doesnt this go against the entire notion of the freedom of the seas? which i believe is an extremely strong tradition. I cant see fishhermen either supporting or it it came to fruition, respecting it. This would be asking fishermen to pay for something that they already have for free. How is such opposition to be overcome?

If I understand the concept correctly, freedom of the seas has to do more with transit than with fishing, and has nothing to do with fishing in waters internationally recognized as the sovereign territory of geo-political entities. Freedom of transit would still be recognized in a libertarian influenced system. As to overcoming a fisherman’s objections, currently it might ultimately be by Rule .303, but in a libertarian influenced system it would be through routine trespassing laws enforced by the government policing entities (coast guard?) and courts. A note to those posters in opposition to a more freedom-based world who are still attempting to misdirect others concerning libertarian oriented systems: I made it quite clear in a previous post that taxes would only be reduced as spending is reduced through the elimination of government programs, and I have not discussed the other forms for financing government provided services.;-)

who then would decide upon the divisions? doesnt this process automatically favour the stronger, richer and squeeze out the "normal joe" fisherman into the crappier fishing grounds.

Who currently owns, or at least, who currently holds sovereignty over the EU waters? As a de facto ‘owner’, the state would probably divide the waters into equal units such as hectares. The sections would be bid on by the fishermen based on their knowledge of each section’s value based on its productivity (historical abundance of fish). Since the ‘owner’ of the waters is the state, as owner, the state could limit the initial number of units that could go to any one fisherman/company and require that the owner not sell, lease, or allow the commercial taking of fish by others in his section for a specified period of time (think if it as a contractual covenant). Of course, after that, what each owner does with his fishing rights is up to him.

Who would benifit from the monies created from this water sale?

The money could be put into a fund to defray the costs of protecting the property rights of the fishermen. It should in some way be tagged for use related to its source.

Does the process of division and sale not create a huge opportunity for corruption and graft on an even greater scale than exists today? I mean look at the size of the seas involved - the quantities of monies this would generate would be staggering.

Man is always subject to corruption and graft. Are you suggesting that the current master/slave system supported by many in this forum is in any way not completely corrupt and graft-ridden? I do not see the usefulness of this question, as I have repeated written that there is no utopia, the human critter is sloppy, often morally fuzzy, and perfection is not being sought.

It would involve the state selling off the sea which is something the fishermen already "own" in common.

Nothing is owned if it is “commonly owned” in the sense you ar using it. And we are not discussing selling off the sea, only the commercial fishing rights in EU waters that have been geographically sectioned off.

Who indeed would police it? and how would this policing be funded. look at the area to be policed, by no means an easy or cheap task. I dont think we could rely upon the essential goodness of people to respect property rights can we? oh sure the big winners of the water sale would be able to fund a navy force, but even that would be far too small for the scale of sea. Oh and this would have the knock on effect of creating a huge temptation on the part of Big Fish to use their private navy to expand their sea patches (arrrr matey)

If you mean who should protect the property rights of the fishermen, who polices farms? Communities? Business districts? It is a legitimate function of government to protect an individual’s rights. I think user fees paid by the fishermen would be a good way to fund such policing, as would user fees of dock owners, fish-packing houses, and others who benefit commercially from such services, but as I wrote in an earlier post, taxes would not be reduced until government was reduced, and a transition to a more libertarian-oriented system would be gradual and in increments, if done at all. That said, even if a few changes are made without fully embracing liberty, we would be the better for it (arrgggh!:-))

hmmmmm, the farmer analogy is interesting, shall we take a look at what beef farmers are doing in the ex-rainforest areas of south america, maximising the use of the land, overgrazing it, furthering the process of desertification begun by deforestation. They are in danger now of destroying the land that provides for them. Are they engaging in " treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season."? or with their maximised profits move on to another peice of available land.
why would fishermen act any differently unless forced?

I don’t think any kind of analogy can be drawn between beef farmers in South America operating in a currently collectivist-oriented system and EU waters fishermen operating in a libertarian-oriented system. The former strips land of its natural state so as to introduce and fatten an external product, beef, while the latter would have to maintain the natural state of his section of EU waters in order to continue to harvest a product that is already there, and would remain there only so long as he does not negatively alter its natural state.

This also brings up the policing aspect. there will be those who overfish and deplete stock in their patch. the temptation will always be there to stray intentionally or otherwise into anothers patch and destroy any good work that might have been done conservation wise.

Already addressed, above. Bear in mind, Schlack, that all the bad things you mention in your post are already taking place under the current collectivist-oriented system. I have no problem placing trust in others to respect the rights they themselves would want respected – and if they let me down, remedies are available.
Yours in musing,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 01:51 AM

 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.


--The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.


Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood who foolishly hook up their horses or fire up their tractors year after year to plow dirt depleted by them in the hope of using it up before it is passed on to their children.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 02:00 AM

 Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
You just can't get there from here, and even if you could it would be so unstable that it would revert back to a coercive system very quickly.


It is said that some of the strongest defenders of the plantation system and their masters were family house slaves.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 03:38 AM

Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 06:02 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
...
It is said that some of the strongest defenders of the plantation system and their masters were family house slaves.;-)

Early on in this thread I said that I neither felt any obligation to defend you nor did I feel that you needed defending. Having reviewed the bidding throughout this thread, I see no need to adjust that statement in any way.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 10:15 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.


--The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.


Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood who foolishly hook up their horses or fire up their tractors year after year to plow dirt depleted by them in the hope of using it up before it is passed on to their children.
Yours,
Issodhos


Really? Have you told all the farmers in the Midwest who make livings good enough to send their kids to college and take a vacation every winter? I think they'll be surprised to learn they are not successful!
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 10:17 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


Going down a different road: if the rights are individual rights, then why do we need (or want) a state to secure them? Let them hire their own security. Worked really well out on the frontier. Well, except when someone else had a competing individual right but we don't need a state to settle those issues.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 10:26 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Why not common rights as well?

That's probably my biggest bone of contention with the Libertarian theory. But we must consider that even a few small changes in that direction would eliminate some of the issues that weigh so heavily on our population. For instance, Phil, the right to marry whomever you wish, regardless of gender. In an even slightly Libertarian System this would be a no brainer. The right to possess, grow, consume, and sell marijuana and a variety of other drugs. Again a no brainer. Abortion rights? Done. True equality for all races through the law? By the very definition, Libertarians are color blind. Everyone here, except Issodhos, seems to think Libertarians would remove government, military and law enforcement. Phil, you said
 Quote:
Here is the thing, absent the state, it is who has the biggest gun.
Who said the state would be absent? Issodhos has said the the Constitution, The Judiciary, the Military, and Law Enforcement Agencies would remain intact. Only the Focus of government would change, from what is heading towards a totalitarian fascist state to one that is more directed toward protecting the rights promised us by the founding fathers and the constitution. To coin an old phrase "liberty and justice for all." All of us want to see changes made in our government.
 Originally Posted By: Issodhos
even if a few changes are made without fully embracing liberty, we would be the better for it

It's pretty confusing, and in my mind unworkable to have a completely Libertarian System, man is a stubborn beast and as has been mentioned here before he often requires coercion to do what is right. The means of coercion would still exist. Probably the common rights that you and I see as necessities would still be protected. Phil, there's no need to give over completely to the libertarians, we can keep some of our socialist tendencies intact within the system, but right now we seem to be giving over completely to the Corporations and giving up rights.....er...right and left.

Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 12:52 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger

the right to marry whomever you wish, regardless of gender. In an even slightly Libertarian System this would be a no brainier. The right to possess, grow, consume, and sell marijuana and a variety of other drugs. Again a no brainer. Abortion rights? Done. True equality for all races through the law? By the very definition, Libertarians are color blind.


In theory what you say is true.

One would presume that the district that sent Ron Paul to congress would map pretty closely to what you say about these issues... given their support for libertarian Mr. Paul.

So, my question is whether in fact this Texas district Mr. Paul is from is in fact supportive of the agenda that you identified. I would be real surprised if that were the case.

And, presuming it is not the case... then we have to wonder why this would be? Perhaps there are a lot of people that are only partly libertarian... only libertarian to the extent it serves their bias, self interest and pre-conceptions.

And, if this were the case with a significant number of "Libertarian" supporters, wouldn't it further undermine the overall feasibility of achieving a true libertarian government as anything other than a fantasy.

After all, lots of people voted for George Bush cause they believed in smaller and less intrusive government that did not spend money it did not have. We didn't get what we thought we were getting with G Bush... and I am not real sure that we would get real libertartianism even in the best case.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 01:49 PM

 Originally Posted By: Ardy

After all, lots of people voted for George Bush cause they believed in smaller and less intrusive government that did not spend money it did not have. We didn't get what we thought we were getting with G Bush... and I am not real sure that we would get real libertartianism even in the best case.



I am quite sure that you wouldn't get libertarianism as a result --- and that Issodhos would be horrified by the results.

Cloud-Cuckooland never turns into cold, hard reality ---- no matter how hard you believe in it.

-
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 02:31 PM

-

I have driven over much of the US and seen farm land and range land showing the obvious signs of degradation and over-use. People almost always try to get more out of their property than it can sustain over the long term.

The same would be true in the fantasy of selling private rights to sections of the sea for fishermen.

We live in a totalitarian nation and in a totalitarian world, and have done so for a long time already. Many people, I know, prefer not to see this obvious fact, and allow themselves to be soothed by pleasing rhetoric and the empty pageant of so-called "democracy."

If people would throw their illusions overboard, face up to the cold reality of our situation, and roll up their sleeves, we might be able to make some progress toward having "totalitarianism with a human face." Not facing up to the facts means that we will continue to live under totalitarianism with a cold, inhuman face.

If we could manage to have a totalitarianism that is not so anti-human, then we might have some reasonable hope of escaping the totalitarian prison into which we have boxed ourselves.

I give Issodhos credit for having the intelligence and the guts to face up to the fact that our present system is totalitarian, but I think him quite naive to think that libertarianism is a practical way out of our predicament.

In the matter of fishing, for example, what would be effective is to use the totalitarian power of the state to forbid all fishing in the sea for the next hundred years, and to blow any fishing boat out of the water if it attempts to contravene the prohibition.

It would take measures that strong in order to have the oceans regain their former productive equilibrium --- though so much damage has been done already, it is doubtful that it would be the same equilibrium they had before. Some things are lost forever, and cannot be regained.

What is quite certain is that the longer we wait to use totalitarian force to restore the oceans, the worse the final outcome will be.

-
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 03:36 PM

Wow Iss, I thought I was the only one who still referred to Rule .303... Nice touch, that.
Posted by: Snargle

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 03:46 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood who foolishly hook up their horses or fire up their tractors year after year to plow dirt depleted by them in the hope of using it up before it is passed on to their children.

The fabulously productive, successful, and affluent Amish farmers of Central Pennsylvania would take extreme umbrage at that statement. Their biggest challenge is not the productivity of their land, but the lack of available acreage for their multitudinous offspring. New Amish settlements are springing up all over other parts of PA, in addition to other states with available agricultural land.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 04:35 PM

 Originally Posted By: Issodhos

Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.

 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.

 Originally Posted By: Issodhos
Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood

 Originally Posted By: Loganrbt
Really? Have you told all the farmers in the Midwest who make livings good enough to send their kids to college and take a vacation every winter? I think they'll be surprised to learn they are not successful!

 Originally Posted By: Snargle

The fabulously productive, successful, and affluent Amish farmers of Central Pennsylvania would take extreme umbrage at that statement. Their biggest challenge is not the productivity of their land, but the lack of available acreage for their multitudinous offspring. New Amish settlements are springing up all over other parts of PA, in addition to other states with available agricultural land.


Guys, I think isso was making a joke when he wrote that?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 04:59 PM

 Originally Posted By: numan
In the matter of fishing, for example, what would be effective is to use the totalitarian power of the state to forbid all fishing in the sea for the next hundred years, and to blow any fishing boat out of the water if it attempts to contravene the prohibition.

It would take measures that strong in order to have the oceans regain their former productive equilibrium --- though so much damage has been done already, it is doubtful that it would be the same equilibrium they had before. Some things are lost forever, and cannot be regained.

What is quite certain is that the longer we wait to use totalitarian force to restore the oceans, the worse the final outcome will be.

Florida has had considerable luck since the mid 19th century leasing areas of ocean bottom for oyster production. The state has also had some fair success with the totalitarian approach when the net ban went into effect on the west coast. No one had to be "blown out of the water" to enforce the new regulations and commercial fishermen found other means to take various species from the gulf for profit. The Redfish and Speckled Trout numbers increased drastically within a very short span of time.
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/20/09 05:01 PM

 Originally Posted By: Snargle
...
The fabulously productive, successful, and affluent Amish farmers of Central Pennsylvania would take extreme umbrage at that statement.

I do believe that Issodhos was indulging in a bit of sarcasm in that statement. Elsewhere, he has on occasion cited the Amish and the Mennoites as examples of people living in their own communities, practicing a largely agragrarian life, generally not being pests to others, and being largely anarchical in their activities.

 Quote:
Their biggest challenge is not the productivity of their land, but the lack of available acreage for their multitudinous offspring. New Amish settlements are springing up all over other parts of PA, in addition to other states with available agricultural land.

Damn religious fanatics! Living in a dream world! Perhaps they need to be segregated from other people and monitored by the more rational among us, and possibly be given psychiatric treatment - for their own good, of course.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 01:17 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I had an interesting discussion with my brother, who is a libertarian, this morning that included fishing, the "fair use" doctrine and property rights. (Where he and I have always agreed is that the primary role of government is to prevent individuals from interfering with the interests of other individuals... we just disagree over means, methods and degrees.)


I disagree with both you and your brother, NWP. If two applicants are after the same job and one applicant arrives a half hour earlier than he and the other is supposed to arrive and, as a result, gets the job, he has interfered with the interests of the other applicant. How does the government have any role in such an action? Two people are at an auction and are bidding on the same item for separate clients. One out-bids the other, directly interfering with the business interests of the other. How does the government have any role in such an action? Two women are competing with each other to win the affections and eventual marriage of an eligible man. One of the women bests the other woman and, in so doing, interferes with the other’s interests. How does the government have any role in such an action? I’m going to have to stick to the idea that the primary role of the government is securing and protecting the rights of the individual – not delving about and intruding upon his “interests".

But, I do agree with you that a “Failure of the premise requires failure of the conclusion.” I would say that your premise fails upon the mistaken belief that the state preceded property, resulting in the mistaken conclusion that property and state are inextricably linked.:-)
Yours in exploration,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 01:19 AM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
 Originally Posted By: Issodhos

Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.

 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.

 Originally Posted By: Issodhos
Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood

 Originally Posted By: Loganrbt
Really? Have you told all the farmers in the Midwest who make livings good enough to send their kids to college and take a vacation every winter? I think they'll be surprised to learn they are not successful!

 Originally Posted By: Snargle

The fabulously productive, successful, and affluent Amish farmers of Central Pennsylvania would take extreme umbrage at that statement. Their biggest challenge is not the productivity of their land, but the lack of available acreage for their multitudinous offspring. New Amish settlements are springing up all over other parts of PA, in addition to other states with available agricultural land.


Guys, I think isso was making a joke when he wrote that?


You and Ron are spot on, Greger. It was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 01:29 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


I think the only rights that can be "common" to all are those unalienable individual rights held by each and every person. Beyond that, I think the term "common rights" has the tincture of group 'rights' which is also a fiction.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 01:38 AM

 Originally Posted By: numan
-

I have driven over much of the US and seen farm land and range land showing the obvious signs of degradation and over-use. People almost always try to get more out of their property than it can sustain over the long term.


There is no doubt that one can find examples of neglect of privately owned properties, but (and I too have driven, thumbed, and walked back and forth across America), you might want to question how much of that land, especially in the central and western states, is owned by the federal government and leased at subsidized rates to ranchers and others, none of whom have a vested interest or familial interest in protecting or maintaining it. Back to Ardy's Commons, again.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 01:51 AM

 Originally Posted By: Ardy
And.... the reality is that fish swim. If other fisherman do not have the same management practices, then all the fish will be gone for everyone.


Yes they do, Ardy. And that is one reason I mentioned migratory fish in my response to Schlack. All fish, and especially migratory fish (e.g., Blues) follow their food chains. The fisherman of a section of fishing grounds who specializes in migratory fish would have every incentive to ensure that his section has a healthy cross-section of that food chain that draws his target fish. Any fisherman who abuses the ecology of his section would soon be out of business and, hopefully, the smarter fellow will buy the abused section at its degraded value and return it to profitability. If nothing else, it is in his self-interest to do so, yet others benefit.
Yours with a sudden hankering for seared tuna in a Sicilian caper marinade,
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 05:21 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


I think the only rights that can be "common" to all are those unalienable individual rights held by each and every person. Beyond that, I think the term "common rights" has the tincture of group 'rights' which is also a fiction.
Yours,
Issodhos


Well, of course, issodhos, how could I ever forget that you alone determine such matters? Maybe you have some other support for that claim, which by the way, completely negates the Constitution.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 09:16 AM

Only unalienable rights I have seen listed are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". Is there another list somewhere that I've not seen?

Assuming that is the list, then it is unconstitutional to carry out the death penalty or to order a soldier/sailor/airman into combat where life may end prematurely; similarly unconstitutional to incarcerate even the most vicious serial killer, and unconstitutional to protect children from child molesters.

That is an amazing world! If that's what a libertarian is, I'm glad we have very few of them near the seat(s) of power!
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 10:30 AM

 Quote:

Only unalienable rights I have seen listed are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"
Those three things cover a lot of ground.
 Quote:
Assuming that is the list, then it is unconstitutional to carry out the death penalty or to order a soldier/sailor/airman into combat
Logan, your Hero, George Bush, was very fond of the death penalty. I on the other hand am not. It's use is questionable and is questioned each and every time it is used. Is the death penalty an effective deterrent to crime or a violation of the United States Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment?
As far as the military, is it too big a stretch to imagine an all volunteer military? I personally think conscription(the draft) of any sort is, indeed, unconstitutional.
 Quote:
similarly unconstitutional to incarcerate even the most vicious serial killer
I have no idea what might have given you these wild ideas. I'm a socialist and I understand Libertarianism better than that. These criminals, from petty thieves right up the list, have infringed on the rights of others and will face punishment to match the crime. You are an expert on the law Logan, perhaps you can tell me why laws are written?
Is it to protect the rights of individuals from the predation or endangerment by other individuals?
And finally this:
 Quote:
unconstitutional to protect children from child molesters.
I imagined you could think more clearly than this Logan. Let's run through it slowly. Do children have rights?
Yes. Do parents have rights? Yes. Do the laws, the Constitution, the government, from Federal down to the village council exist to protect these rights? Yes. Do you feel that child molestation is an infringement on these rights? Do you imagine that a Libertarian would disagree with you? Regardless of the views of some Texans who voted for Ron Paul, It would, indeed, be unconstitutional to write a law that says who may or may not get married. It would be unconstitutional to write a law that says one plant that grows in your garden is legal but another is not.
It would be unconstitutional to write a law that interferes with any medical decisions you might make about your own body. I have no idea why these concepts are so difficult for some to grasp.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 11:34 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


I think the only rights that can be "common" to all are those unalienable individual rights held by each and every person. Beyond that, I think the term "common rights" has the tincture of group 'rights' which is also a fiction.
Yours,
Issodhos


Well, of course, issodhos, how could I ever forget that you alone determine such matters? Maybe you have some other support for that claim, which by the way, completely negates the Constitution.


Phil I'm not sure what hat you pulled this statement out of and perhaps you could explain how his reply to you "negates the Constitution". until then let's discuss "common rights". If, by common rights, you mean rights that we all share(in common) then we also share these same rights as "individual rights" Right? Either we all have the right to bear arms or none of us do, we all "have the right to remain silent" or none do. All rights are common and all rights are individual.
When Issodhos mentions "group rights" I think he is speaking of rights granted to tall people but not short people, Black vs white, young or old, male vs female, gay vs straight.
No such rights exist or, if there are, perhaps you could point out where those are listed or alluded to in the constitution....

Earlier, when you mentioned "common rights", I thought it meant things like Social Programs. Programs like Social Security and yes, even Welfare, that assure the aged, afflicted, and unfortunate individuals, who slip through the cracks for one reason or another, a chance to live with dignity. I understand that this means the government must take from one group to give to another, the very antithesis of Libertarianism, but I also feel that, while Americans are more than willing to give to a worthy cause, there must be a bit of coercion in place to spur them into given enough.

Maybe I've gotten this all mixed up somehow, I'm not the sharpest thorn on the rose after all, If I have forgive me and please clarify the above.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 12:06 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
I disagree with both you and your brother, NWP.
Wow, Iss, that makes you pretty disagreeable... ;\)

But, to carry on that tradition, I think you missed the point entirely. Not all interference with other interests are "actionable." Again, I am afraid, you have created a strawman with all your "examples." There is a huge body of laws that address the "interference with interests" that does not address criminality - it's called "civil law." It started with the common law of torts, but also addresses contracts, and now a whole body of other issues: nuisance laws, equal protection laws, etc., etc., etc. They have been known for hundreds of years in our legal tradition as "courts of equity."

 Quote:
If two applicants are after the same job and one applicant arrives a half hour earlier than he and the other is supposed to arrive and, as a result, gets the job, he has interfered with the interests of the other applicant. How does the government have any role in such an action?
It doesn't, but... what if one applicant is black or a woman and is the one who gets there early? What if the other was late because the other blocked the entrance to the parking garage forcing the other to drive an extra 6 blocks to find a parking space? What if one of the applicants' girlfriend "accidentally" scheduled the other applicant's appointment 20 minutes later without telling the interviewer?

 Quote:
Two people are at an auction and are bidding on the same item for separate clients. One out-bids the other, directly interfering with the business interests of the other. How does the government have any role in such an action?
What if one of the clients has those funds for money-laundering? What if the bids are based upon false claims of available credit? What if the auction house doesn't have permission to sell the item?

 Quote:
Two women are competing with each other to win the affections and eventual marriage of an eligible man. One of the women bests the other woman and, in so doing, interferes with the other’s interests. How does the government have any role in such an action?
What if she "bested" her by stealing her identity? What if she trashed the other woman's car? What if she engaged in a pattern of character assassination by spreading lies about her?

 Quote:
I’m going to have to stick to the idea that the primary role of the government is securing and protecting the rights of the individual – not delving about and intruding upon his “interests".
Then you are going to miss out on most of the protections of the Constitution and our legal system, my friend - like the ability to participate in this forum.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 12:30 PM

IF the position that unalienable rights cannot be modified is the answer, then they cannot be modified for ANY reason. No matter how honorable. So the crux of the argument becomes; is there any right that is unalienable?

There certainly are some that argue there are such rights; descended from natural law, the flowery language of the Declaration of Independence (which, as a footnote, has no legal standing; it is mere puffery announcing the intent to hold a revolution), or some other source.

My post, of course, points out what a tragic world we would live in if we took this argument seriously.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 12:32 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger

As far as the military, is it too big a stretch to imagine an all volunteer military? I personally think conscription(the draft) of any sort is, indeed, unconstitutional.


Separate issue: doesn't matter whether the soldier/sailor/airman is a conscript or a volunteer. Ordering that person to die is a deprivation of the unalienable right to Life and therefore is not permitted.

I suppose if we had a volunteer army and a bunch of guys volunteered to charge into a hail of bullets, that would be okay.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 12:39 PM

 Quote:

I'm a socialist and I understand Libertarianism better than that.

not sure how one follows from the other. socialism is the most anti-libertarian socio-political system of the major isms. Won't challenge the assertion, but the cause and effect relationship suggested by the statement fails.

 Quote:
These criminals, from petty thieves right up the list, have infringed on the rights of others and will face punishment to match the crime.


Any punishment that interferes with the perp's liberty or pursuit of justice violates unalienable rights and therefore is disallowed. Those rights, you see, are, like gun ownership, inviolable. Even if someone else may be harmed by a failure to act, the unalienable right trumps the action. Or so goes the theory. Is it an absurd notion. Well, yes, of course it is. But hard to discuss a concept without getting to its root beliefs.

 Quote:
You are an expert on the law Logan, perhaps you can tell me why laws are written?

The motivation of lawmakers was not part of my law school curriculum and my legal practice did not include any time as a lobbyist nor a legislator so I will have to pass on that question.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 01:09 PM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


IMO it is worthwhile to consider why and how governments came into being. That is, how did primitive human groupings develop the institution of "government".

IMO, the examination of that question will show that government did not develop as a means to secure rights. And, if that is the case, it seems logically problematical to propose that this function is the EXCLUSIVE justification for the existence of the institution of government.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 01:28 PM

I think the title of the thread really should be "Libertarians make you stupid"

Once again I can't understand why you insist on making up strange, imaginary situations(straw men) and claiming them to be what Libertarians stand for or what the result of a free society might be. Perhaps you are so steeped in totalitarianism that you cannot think clearly about freedom.
Here, Logan, is the unfathomably difficult answer to the conundrum you have presented:
When a soldier volunteers for Military Service he volunteers to charge into that hail of bullets if such is required, which meets your personal requirement that:
 Quote:
if we had a volunteer army and a bunch of guys volunteered to charge into a hail of bullets, that would be okay.

In reality our soldiers are suppose to create that hail of bullets, not charge into it ;\)
Posted by: 2wins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 02:14 PM

 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


IMO it is worthwhile to consider why and how governments came into being. That is, how did primitive human groupings develop the institution of "government".

IMO, the examination of that question will show that government did not develop as a means to secure rights. And, if that is the case, it seems logically problematical to propose that this function is the EXCLUSIVE justification for the existence of the institution of government.
i'll bite on this. this brings to mind hunter/gatherers. my first thought here is that they would have organized, on some level, to ensure the group was fed and kept safe from the elements. thus, a division of labor was introduced, each person accepting a job that would assist in benefitting the whole.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 02:51 PM

And so we have a primitive tribe, division of labor is introduced, some hunt for meat and hides, some gather berries and eggs, cure the hides and cook the meat. They have no concept of land ownership, Noble Savages so to speak. The first piece of property is a sharpened stick. "Savage A" found and sharpened the stick, thinking himself very clever and able to kill animals easier. "Savage B" wants it and tries to take it. "Savage A" pokes him and shows him who is boss. Government is created to assure property rights.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 02:54 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


I think the only rights that can be "common" to all are those unalienable individual rights held by each and every person. Beyond that, I think the term "common rights" has the tincture of group 'rights' which is also a fiction.
Yours,
Issodhos


Well, of course, issodhos, how could I ever forget that you alone determine such matters? Maybe you have some other support for that claim, which by the way, completely negates the Constitution.


Phil I'm not sure what hat you pulled this statement out of and perhaps you could explain how his reply to you "negates the Constitution". until then let's discuss "common rights". If, by common rights, you mean rights that we all share(in common) then we also share these same rights as "individual rights" Right? Either we all have the right to bear arms or none of us do, we all "have the right to remain silent" or none do. All rights are common and all rights are individual.
When Issodhos mentions "group rights" I think he is speaking of rights granted to tall people but not short people, Black vs white, young or old, male vs female, gay vs straight.
No such rights exist or, if there are, perhaps you could point out where those are listed or alluded to in the constitution....

Earlier, when you mentioned "common rights", I thought it meant things like Social Programs. Programs like Social Security and yes, even Welfare, that assure the aged, afflicted, and unfortunate individuals, who slip through the cracks for one reason or another, a chance to live with dignity. I understand that this means the government must take from one group to give to another, the very antithesis of Libertarianism, but I also feel that, while Americans are more than willing to give to a worthy cause, there must be a bit of coercion in place to spur them into given enough.

Maybe I've gotten this all mixed up somehow, I'm not the sharpest thorn on the rose after all, If I have forgive me and please clarify the above.


Well, the "hat" I pulled this out of is the language of the Constitution itself. There are a number of provisions therein which amount to common rights -- the one I mentioned earlier being the right of we the people to condemn/take property of an individual with full compensation. The people have the right to govern commerce, etc. Every one of these is a exercise of common will over individuals.

The Constitution is, in fact, an attempt to blend individual rights with common rights and responsibilities, isn't it? So to just focus on the protection of individual rights simply ignores or negates the bulk of the Constitution.

Just because our friend issodhos likes to conflate "common" with "collectivist" doesn't mean you have to fall for that false paradigm, does it?

Now as for the history of man, from what I read the progression was from clan to chiefdom to tribe to state. At no time along that progression was the effort designed to protect individual rights but rather to provide for the common good. That is the primary goal of organizations of all kinds.

Individual rights absolutely need protection, but that has been a development long in the making and refined within the last 1,000 years or so.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 03:02 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
And so we have a primitive tribe, division of labor is introduced, some hunt for meat and hides, some gather berries and eggs, cure the hides and cook the meat. They have no concept of land ownership, Noble Savages so to speak. The first piece of property is a sharpened stick. "Savage A" found and sharpened the stick, thinking himself very clever and able to kill animals easier. "Savage B" wants it and tries to take it. "Savage A" pokes him and shows him who is boss. Government is created to assure property rights.


Absolutely wrong. First, government as you speak of it came many thousands of years after hunter-gatherers, but aside from that, why would there be any need to protect property? For most of human history there was simply no notion of "private" property but rather everything was held in common. You have it all backwards.

Try reading Guns, Germs and Steel by Diamond Jared and you will get a better idea of human development.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 03:14 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos

I think the only rights that can be "common" to all are those unalienable individual rights held by each and every person. Beyond that, I think the term "common rights" has the tincture of group 'rights' which is also a fiction.



How are "inalienable individual rights" any less of a fiction than "common rights"?

If one looks at the human condition through the lenses of history, anthropology and biology, the claim that we have any natural rights, individual or collective, appears to be preposterous.

I hold to the distinctly unappealing view that we have no rights whatever --- only duties! ;\)

More seriously, it is obvious that any rights which we may be said to possess, individual or group, are fragile constructs which arise through difficult, sustained collective effort --- and not a little historical accident!

-
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 05:49 PM

 Quote:
Absolutely wrong. First, government as you speak of it came many thousands of years after hunter-gatherers, but aside from that, why would there be any need to protect property? For most of human history there was simply no notion of "private" property but rather everything was held in common. You have it all backwards.

I can accept that correction and the one before it, thanks for clearing it up for me. No straw men there at all. My monkeyman with a stick though does represent the first primitive forms of government, the Patriarchal rule by the strongest monkeyman in the tribe. His property was counted mostly in females and the weaker males better leave em alone or they will get poked with that sharp stick. All that was really tongue in cheekish though. Did you ever see "The Gods Must Be Crazy"? the introduction of a new tool(a coke bottle) became an object of envy and trouble within a primitive tribe. As you say, there was no concept of "private property" until this unique item came among them.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 08:25 PM

-

I highly recommend Marvin Harris' Cannibals and Kings (or, indeed, any of his other books) for the real low-down on the story of the human race.

Certainly, the idea of the alpha-male monkey-man with a big stick, fighting and controlling access to females, has its place in the story of the rise of chiefs in tribal societies; but it is a much too American, competitive and aggressive, slant on human culture. The carrot was at least as big as the stick! ;\)

From Bigman to Chiefs

 Quote:

Nothing is more symptomatic of the difference between reciprocity and redistribution than the acceptance of boastfulness as an attribute of leadership. In flagrant violation of prescriptions for modesty in reciprocal exchanges, redistributive exchange involves public proclamations that the redistributor is a generous person and a great provider.

[SNIP]

The slide (or ascent?) toward social stratification gained momentum wherever extra food, produced by the inspired diligence of redistributors, could be stored while awaiting Bigman feasts, potlatches, and other occasions of redistribution. The more concentrated and abundant, and the less perishable, the crop, the greater its potential for endowing Bigmen with power over people. While others would possess some stored-up foods of their own, the redistributors' stores would be the largest. In times of scarcity, people would come to him, expecting to be fed, and, in return, he would call upon those who had special skills to make cloth, pots, canoes, or a fine house for his own use. Eventually, the redistributor no longer needed to work in the fields to gain and surpass Bigman status. Management of the harvest surpluses, a portion of which continued to be given to him for use in communal feasts and other communal projects such as trading expeditions and warfare, was sufficient to validate his status. And increasingly, people viewed this status as an office, a sacred trust, passed on from one generation to the next according to rules of hereditary succession. The Bigman had become a chief; his dominion was no longer a single small, autonomous village, but a large political community, a chiefdom.




The early chiefs were, at least, as much Tammany Hall as Mississippi River alligator-man!

-
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 11:28 PM

I was about to start another thread on the concept of "Commonwealth" - and probably still will - but it is relevant here because the concept is central to the creation of the United States itself (indeed, four states still refer to themselves as "Commonwealths.") Commonwealth (United States). Indeed, the Constitution itself is clearly based upon the concept of "Res publica," the "common weal."
 Quote:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The authority of the State thus draws its power from the will of the governed to "establish justice"; "insure domestic tranquility"; "provide for the common defense"; "promote the general welfare"; and secure the blessings of liberty "for ourselves and our posterity." The structure then follows from that principle "e pluribus unum" - from the many, one. Libertarianism is, quite directly, very "un"-constitutional, as it places the interests of individuals over that of the collective whole. Ooops... there's that "collective" word again....
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/21/09 11:34 PM

By the way, Logan, I couldn't disagree with your statement that "socialism is the most anti-libertarian socio-political system of the major isms." I know that libertarianists hate to acknowledge it, but they grow from the same root ball - but have followed different branches. The socialist construct is an outgrowth of the common weal concept, where all members of the society are voluntarily associated, by virtue of the social contract, to create a government for the benefit of all. Libertarians give lip service to the concept of such voluntary joinings all the the time - they just object to the scale that socialism represents.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 12:46 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
I disagree with both you and your brother, NWP.
Wow, Iss, that makes you pretty disagreeable... ;\)

But, to carry on that tradition, I think you missed the point entirely. Not all interference with other interests are "actionable." Again, I am afraid, you have created a strawman with all your "examples." There is a huge body of laws that address the "interference with interests" that does not address criminality - it's called "civil law." It started with the common law of torts, but also addresses contracts, and now a whole body of other issues: nuisance laws, equal protection laws, etc., etc., etc. They have been known for hundreds of years in our legal tradition as "courts of equity."


You are engaging in the fallacy of irrelevance, NWP, by trying to argue a point not presented. I did not write that civil law would not be recognized in a libertarian-oriented system. The claim you made, the one I responded to, was “Where he and I have always agreed is that the primary role of government is to prevent individuals from interfering with the interests of other individuals...” (emphasis added by me). No government that I know of has ever been established to serve that primary role. Almost all governments have been imposed on the weak by the powerful for their own purposes without a moments concern for such a primary role of judiciary beneficence.

However, in an era of enlightenment, and at the time of the American Revolution, it was recognized by some that the only valid government is one that is instituted to secure and protect man’s rights. That was the point being used to contest your claim that “…the primary role of government is to prevent individuals from interfering with the interests of other individuals…”.

And no, my examples were not strawmen. They related directly to your erroneous claim that “…the primary role of government is to prevent individuals from interfering with the interests of other individuals…”. ;-)
Yours in patience,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 12:58 AM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
And so we have a primitive tribe, division of labor is introduced, some hunt for meat and hides, some gather berries and eggs, cure the hides and cook the meat. They have no concept of land ownership, Noble Savages so to speak. The first piece of property is a sharpened stick. "Savage A" found and sharpened the stick, thinking himself very clever and able to kill animals easier. "Savage B" wants it and tries to take it. "Savage A" pokes him and shows him who is boss. Government is created to assure property rights.


Actually, that is pretty good, Greger. It beats the heck out of the fairytales about ancient folk communing in a now lost social Eden as they debate how to best form a government that will sort out their competing "interests". :-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 01:21 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins


Well, the "hat" I pulled this out of is the language of the Constitution itself. There are a number of provisions therein which amount to common rights -- the one I mentioned earlier being the right of we the people to condemn/take property of an individual with full compensation. The people have the right to govern commerce, etc. Every one of these is a exercise of common will over individuals.


I am not sure when this thread became a discussion of the Constitution, Phil, but there is nothing in the Constitution that references "common rights", nor is their any mention of group rights (which is what "common rights" would be), and nothing in the Constitution can be construed as even alluding to such "rights". While the government may be granted various "authorities and "powers", only individuals have and can exercise rights. Attempting to equate the two diminishes the very concept of the rights of man and the subordination of the state to the citizenry.

And indeed, much of the subversion and circumvention of the Constition has resulted from such false conflation.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 01:38 AM

 Originally Posted By: loganrbt
Only unalienable rights I have seen listed are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". Is there another list somewhere that I've not seen?


If you are interested in the subject, we did a couple of threads a while back on Rights. I doubt that Phil intended to have the thread drift away from the claim that "libertarianism makes you stupid" (i.e., Issodhos is stupid:-)). Here are a couple of links:
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Allow me to first repeat, with emphasis added, what I have previously written, which was, “My view is that rights are inalienable and pre-exist the state and also pre-exist any agreement made among men to recognize them.” Please note that I did not write that they pre-existed man. I also wrote that “rights are integral to the human mind” which is to say they are integral to man. They are essential to the completeness of man and reflect the nature of man, not nature in general, not ‘natural’ man, but the nature of man.

Do Individual Rights Exist?
and
Individual Rights vs Group claims
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s As Greger commented, "those three cover a lot of ground." And are you familiar with the IX Amendment?
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 01:56 AM

 Originally Posted By: loganrbt
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


Going down a different road: if the rights are individual rights, then why do we need (or want) a state to secure them? Let them hire their own security.


Anarcho-capitalists make a case for doing just that, loganrbt. But, I do not think there are any anarcho-capitalists in the forum to defend that position.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 01:59 AM

 Originally Posted By: 2wins
 Originally Posted By: Ardy

IMO it is worthwhile to consider why and how governments came into being. That is, how did primitive human groupings develop the institution of "government".

IMO, the examination of that question will show that government did not develop as a means to secure rights. And, if that is the case, it seems logically problematical to propose that this function is the EXCLUSIVE justification for the existence of the institution of government.
i'll bite on this. this brings to mind hunter/gatherers. my first thought here is that they would have organized, on some level, to ensure the group was fed and kept safe from the elements. thus, a division of labor was introduced, each person accepting a job that would assist in benefiting the whole.


As Phil also said... Guns, Germs and Steel makes an excellent reference for the dynamics underlying the development of nations.

In a nutshell... hunter gatherer societies have never developed large nations. You do not get to large nations until societies make the transition to agricultural societies. These primitive societies are operated by some sort of elite... kings, priests, chiefs, etc.

Fundamentally the king wants less internal conflict... in order to maximize the wealth and power of his domain. The king is less concerned about establishing individual rights and property ownership except as it may help his objectives of increased power.

Generally, smaller , less centralized social groups are conquered by larger social groups... and those larger social groups act sort of like black holes that suck in all the small groups around them

Large social groups (like the roman empire) have little interest in individual rights except as they may be expedient. The main an unconditional foundation of these large social groups is to maintain and enrich the ruling class/hierarchy. Anyone who gets in the way of that objective is disposed of.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 02:00 AM

 Originally Posted By: loganrbt


There certainly are some that argue there are such rights; descended from natural law, the flowery language of the Declaration of Independence (which, as a footnote, has no legal standing; it is mere puffery announcing the intent to hold a revolution), or some other source.


One is just a bit of puffery, and the other is just a g*ddam* piece of paper, wot?;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 02:46 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The structure then follows from that principle "e pluribus unum" - from the many, one. Libertarianism is, quite directly, very "un"-constitutional, as it places the interests of individuals over that of the collective whole. Ooops... there's that "collective" word again....


You do realize, do you not, NW Ponderer, that "e pluribus unum" simply means "out of many states, one nation" -- and later repositioned to mean "out of many immigrating peoples, a single people?" Why attempt to falsely color it as a call for a sociopolitical collective?

Libertarianism recognizes the natural rights of the individual, recognizes that the individual, not the state, is the owner of his person, and that valid governments are instituted among men to secure those rights. "Interests" are another matter.
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. Your premise is again false.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 03:22 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
...Your system has failed time and time again and the only response to its failure is to do the same thing over again.

Isn't that the definition of insanity? To perform the task the same way over and over again and expect different results each time the task is repeated.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 03:28 AM

 Originally Posted By: california rick
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
...Your system has failed time and time again and the only response to its failure is to do the same thing over again.

Isn't that the definition of insanity? To perform the task the same way over and over again and expect different results each time the task is repeated.


So I have been told, rick. Of course, it could simply be a reactionary need on the part of some to try to conserve the past. Hmmm..... kinda conservative, wot?:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 04:22 AM

You do realize, Issodhos, that e pluribus unum is Latin, no? It has a longer lineage than its appearance on the great seal, and has multiple meanings - one of which is that the collection of States created the Union (hence the name, "United States"). It was also a popular phrase in connection with discussion of commonwealths, as I tried to point out earlier, as it implied that the power of the State came from its people, not from on high or based upon birthright. e pluribus unum At the time this was a pretty radical concept. I suppose you haven't spent much time on the Constitution, have you - its structure and purpose? Oh, but discussion of that substantive portion of my earlier post would detract from the distraction of focusing on semantics, wouldn't it?

"Rights" are merely interests that have gained sufficient importance to be protected by legal strictures - oh, which means protected by the State. Inconvenient, that. The idea that they exist independent of any sort of structure is a logical impossibility, but an aspirational and rhetorical point that inspired the Enlightenment thinkers, and conceptually something I have always honored. It is an important touchstone concept for the balancing of interests between individuals, and between individuals and "the people." Unfortunately in the hands of libertarians, the concept "natural rights" tends to devolve into a meaningless muddle of logical impossibility, as was noted by many earlier posts. Stripped of nuance and context "rights" tend to become rather hollow and ephemeral. It is akin to trying to take the Bible as literal truth, and leads down the same rabbit hole of discongruity. (How does one define a "right," for example, without reference to an authority? It's one of those "nice to have" concepts if it isn't recognized and protected. By whom? Oops, haring off into substance again, aren't I? Bad habit, that.)

I'm getting the impression, Issdhos, that you prefer to delve into semantics and ignore the substance, though. It is a disappointing habit. I will leave you to that. (I also suspect you never read the articles from the first post, but it is just a guess on my part.)

By the way, disagreement does not make a premise "false" - it just means you don't like, or didn't understand it. What I actually said was, "Failure of the premise requires failure of the conclusion."
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 09:37 AM

NWP, In checking your link and expecting a treatise on the Latin roots and meanings of e pluribus unum I find instead a salad recipe, or actually e pluribus unus a brief discussion of a poem describing a salad recipe. This salad doesn't sound particularly appetizing but by definition comes, I think closer to the truth than either you or Issodhos have come in the literal meaning of the phrase. Perhaps I oversimplify when I leave out commonwealth and immigrants and all the other semantics that can be tied to the phrase and suggest that "out of many, one" is what e pluribus unum means, simply a synonym for United. The phrase can be used to describe many things but I think it really has only one meaning.
Just as the cheese and herbs join together to become one the States did the same, their many flavors and colours melding into a single ball with it's own particular flavour.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 11:15 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Issodhos is stupid:-)).




Is paranoia setting in?
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 11:22 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos


You do realize, do you not, NW Ponderer, that "e pluribus unum" simply means "out of many states, one nation" -- and later repositioned to mean "out of many immigrating peoples, a single people?" Why attempt to falsely color it as a call for a sociopolitical collective?


Well, actually, the meaning you attribute to the phrase was a filch of the real original meaning which was to describe a magazine publication that pulled together articles from multiple issues into a single issue; a kind of "Greatest Hits" issue.

Why attempt to falsely color it?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 12:20 PM

Greger,
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Perhaps I oversimplify when I leave out commonwealth and immigrants and all the other semantics that can be tied to the phrase and suggest that "out of many, one" is what e pluribus unum means, simply a synonym for United. The phrase can be used to describe many things but I think it really has only one meaning.
And I like thinking of the United States as cheese - as it requires disparate ingredients, some messy decay to be worthwhile, and becomes more interesting with age.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 12:24 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
And I like thinking of the United States as cheese


ermmmm.

so many possibilities i cant decide how to respond
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 12:26 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

And I like thinking of the United States as cheese - as it requires disparate ingredients, some messy decay to be worthwhile, and becomes more interesting with age.



Until it becomes covered with mold and is inedible --- as is now the case. ;\)

-
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 12:34 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos

Your system has failed time and time again and the only response to its failure is to do the same thing over again.



 Originally Posted By: california rick

Isn't that the definition of insanity? To perform the task the same way over and over again and expect different results each time the task is repeated.



Well, isn't that the case with people who over and over expect the Constitution to work and produce a decent society? ;\)

-
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 01:44 PM

 Originally Posted By: numan
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

And I like thinking of the United States as cheese - as it requires disparate ingredients, some messy decay to be worthwhile, and becomes more interesting with age.



Until it becomes covered with mold and is inedible --- as is now the case. ;\)

-


I take you've never enjoyed a fine Stilton or Roquefort?
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 01:53 PM

 Originally Posted By: loganrbt

I take you've never enjoyed a fine Stilton or Roquefort?



I knew someone was going to try pulling a line like that --- even though the phrase, "covered with mold and is inedible," cuts those cheeses out of the Venn diagram. ;\)

-
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 03:22 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I suppose you haven't spent much time on the Constitution, have you - its structure and purpose? Oh, but discussion of that substantive portion of my earlier post would detract from the distraction of focusing on semantics, wouldn't it?

Well, I must admit that I have not spent much time restructuring, re-purposing, and fancifully re-interpreting it into a moldy piece of cheese that can be shaped into any transient form that is useful at any given moment, NW Ponderer.

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
"Rights" are merely interests that have gained sufficient importance to be protected by legal strictures - oh, which means protected by the State.


That is, at best, a description of privileges granted (and easily rescinded) by the State to its subjects, NW Ponderer, not Rights. Though, I do see how handy it can be to present Rights as being subject to the arbitrary interpretation of a ruling class, I remain much more comfortable with what I wrote in another thread quite some time back:
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Allow me to first repeat, with emphasis added, what I have previously written, which was, “My view is that rights are inalienable and pre-exist the state and also pre-exist any agreement made among men to recognize them.” Please note that I did not write that they pre-existed man. I also wrote that “rights are integral to the human mind” which is to say they are integral to man. They are essential to the completeness of man and reflect the nature of man, not nature in general, not ‘natural’ man, but the nature of man.

Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 03:26 PM

In other words, rights are "notional."
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 03:33 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In other words, rights are "notional."


In other words, Rights are "inherent". How's that for a stand-off?:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 03:35 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I suppose you haven't spent much time on the Constitution, have you - its structure and purpose? Oh, but discussion of that substantive portion of my earlier post would detract from the distraction of focusing on semantics, wouldn't it?

Well, I must admit that I have not spent much time restructuring, re-purposing, and fancifully re-interpreting it into a moldy piece of cheese that can be shaped into any transient form that is useful at any given moment, NW Ponderer.

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
"Rights" are merely interests that have gained sufficient importance to be protected by legal strictures - oh, which means protected by the State.


That is, at best, a description of privileges granted (and easily rescinded) by the State to its subjects, NW Ponderer, not Rights. Though, I do see how handy it can be to present Rights as being subject to the arbitrary interpretation of a ruling class, I remain much more comfortable with what I wrote in another thread quite some time back:
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Allow me to first repeat, with emphasis added, what I have previously written, which was, “My view is that rights are inalienable and pre-exist the state and also pre-exist any agreement made among men to recognize them.” Please note that I did not write that they pre-existed man. I also wrote that “rights are integral to the human mind” which is to say they are integral to man. They are essential to the completeness of man and reflect the nature of man, not nature in general, not ‘natural’ man, but the nature of man.

Yours,
Issodhos


What you fail to seem to be able to comprehend, issodhos, is something several of us have repeatedly made available to you -- there is no basis for your claim, either in logic or science. Humans did not develop with a notion of "rights", alienable or not. That is a very recent concept which even today is not universally a part of all human being's reality.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 04:12 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In other words, rights are "notional."


In other words, Rights are "inherent". How's that for a stand-off?:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


and women of course have enjoyed the same inherent rights as equals with men right? erm when were women allowed vote? own property etc. it has been the same throughout history has it? Piffle i believe is the word, even a cursory glance through history negates the notion of natural rights....

throughout history, rights have had to be fought for and won. they are not inherent, they are not natural, they are developed, fought over, ammended changed, redefined througout history.

it is often in the course of the struggle that rights are defined, refined and codified, quite often after a revolution - political or social.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 04:17 PM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I suppose you haven't spent much time on the Constitution, have you - its structure and purpose? Oh, but discussion of that substantive portion of my earlier post would detract from the distraction of focusing on semantics, wouldn't it?

Well, I must admit that I have not spent much time restructuring, re-purposing, and fancifully re-interpreting it into a moldy piece of cheese that can be shaped into any transient form that is useful at any given moment, NW Ponderer.

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
"Rights" are merely interests that have gained sufficient importance to be protected by legal strictures - oh, which means protected by the State.


That is, at best, a description of privileges granted (and easily rescinded) by the State to its subjects, NW Ponderer, not Rights. Though, I do see how handy it can be to present Rights as being subject to the arbitrary interpretation of a ruling class, I remain much more comfortable with what I wrote in another thread quite some time back:
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Allow me to first repeat, with emphasis added, what I have previously written, which was, “My view is that rights are inalienable and pre-exist the state and also pre-exist any agreement made among men to recognize them.” Please note that I did not write that they pre-existed man. I also wrote that “rights are integral to the human mind” which is to say they are integral to man. They are essential to the completeness of man and reflect the nature of man, not nature in general, not ‘natural’ man, but the nature of man.

Yours,
Issodhos


What you fail to seem to be able to comprehend, issodhos, is something several of us have repeatedly made available to you -- there is no basis for your claim, either in logic or science. Humans did not develop with a notion of "rights", alienable or not. That is a very recent concept which even today is not universally a part of all human being's reality.


Please understand, Phil, I do appreciate that several of you deigned to descend from Mt. Olympus, even if only briefly, to bestow upon this mere mortal the perceived wisdom of your paradigm. Your proclamation is again noted.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 04:23 PM

Issodhos, I don't see the need for sarcasm, I had hoped you would see that you state things as though they are the eternal truth. When I or someone else either asks for substantiation or posits an alternative "truth", you find a way to ignore it.

But the thread was and is intended to give us an opportunity to get at these basic elements in a real discussion. All I am saying is that the science of human development does not support your assertion that the state evolved to protect individual rights. I suggest the evidence is the exact opposite and that only within the last couple of centuries has that concept emerged.

To me this is important, because of your claim that rights are "inalienable" as contrasted with my claim that rights are dependent upon a structure of enforcement.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 04:29 PM

Yesterday we were discussing "property" and how primitives held everything in "common". I submit that children are perhaps the most primitive form of humans, fuzzy brained, with only the vestiges of genetic memories passed down from the parents. They must be taught everything from how to eat, walk, and talk. I further submit that, while more often than not the first word that baby learns is "Mommy", the second more often than not is Mine Mine Mine! Does baby learn this concept of property rights so easily or is it ingrained, actually genetically passed down rather than learned. This "right" to posses something and not have it taken away is no different from any savage beast which claims the right to control "territory". Said beast, by virtue of whuppin' your ass, also claims the right to mate with the nearest female, claims the right to biggest chunk of food etc. etc.
In conclusion I submit that "rights" preceded even intelligence.

I apologize if this thread is supposed to be a one way street where everyone bashes Issodhos, I just keep seeing other ways to think about the various assertions and condemnations. Feel free to shoot me down, Isso wont be back for hours anyway....

Edit: Welcome back Issodos! I didn't imagine we would be seeing you until this evening.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 04:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: Schlack

and women of course have enjoyed the same inherent rights as equals with men right?


Females have, and always have had, the same natural rights that men have. For ages, and in some societies continuing today, females were prevented from exercising those natural rights.

If you are interested in the subject, here are a couple of links to CHB threads that previously discussed rights:
Do We Have Individual Rights?

and

Individual Rights vs Group rights
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. So, how are those EU fishermen doing now that we resolved their dilemma?:-)
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 05:05 PM

 Quote:
To me this is important, because of your claim that rights are "inalienable" as contrasted with my claim that rights are dependent upon a structure of enforcement.

Phil, why can't both of these things be true? As with womens rights it's easy to see that women have the same rights as men but without a structure of enforcement it's all to possible for these "inalienable rights" to be usurped.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 05:07 PM

Greger no one is "bashing" issodhos nor anyone else, we are, however, challenging some assertions and that is what this board does so well.

I think, with regard to your "mine mine mine" statement, that you have conflated desire with right. Of course humans are aquisitive and no doubt protective of what they have acquired. That is precisely what I and others have acknowledged as underlying the other human trait, the use of force to protect acquisitions.

But lets get history correct. Early humans had first to develop a sense of "self" before either ownership or rights could be conceived of. That took many millenia to come about. As it developed, most small hunter-gatherer clusters evolved into chiefdoms which is when the first concept of differentiation of role and place occurred.

Some time later these chiefdoms evolved into tribes, where the first forms of specialized behavior and public forms of structure came about. At none of these levels is there any notion of individual rights, as contrasted to a very primitive and developing concept of individual ownership.

The notion of rights probably did develop around property, but at all times was it clear that the right without a system of enfocing those rights made the right illusory.

The whole discussion of whether that right sprang from the state or was inalienable is a false dichotomy. The concept of rights sprang from the ego developed mind of man and those with an interest in stability and order found it expedient to use the state to enforce claims of right.

I have no quarrel with the concept of "inalienable" rights if it is also recognized that absent state enforcement and protection of those rights, they are illusory and therefore an abstraction. I see nothing advancing the practical, down to earth, real world experience of living that is enhanced by that abstraction.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 05:10 PM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins

But the thread was and is intended to give us an opportunity to get at these basic elements in a real discussion. All I am saying is that the science of human development does not support your assertion that the state evolved to protect individual rights. I suggest the evidence is the exact opposite and that only within the last couple of centuries has that concept emerged.


I seriously doubt that was the intent of starting this thread, Phil, and I think there are a number of posters now seeking to distance themselves from the discussion of how a libertarian-oriented society would work.

It is incorrect to say that I assert that the state evolved to protect individual rights. I have been clear that I support the concept that the reason for instituting government is to secure and protect individual rights. Is that a recent concept? Yes. Does that have a relevence to the existance of natural rights? No. Government does not "evolve" -- it is "instituted" by those who have the power to do so, and instituted in the form they dictate.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 05:49 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Schlack

and women of course have enjoyed the same inherent rights as equals with men right?


Females have, and always have had, the same natural rights that men have. For ages, and in some societies continuing today, females were prevented from exercising those natural rights.


is there some law of physics or biology that is the foundation of these rights?

all human behaviour has developed throughout the development of our species. thought is but one of them. the notion of "rights" has been different thoughout history. Rights are a human construct. if by Natural rights, you mean a particular construction version of rights, i can agree that yes they exist. if youre meaning is that natural rights are a distinct idea that has always existed and only recently been discovered.. well ... piffle ... unless of course you can provide a fossil record.

(could you please clarify lest this all be a semantic misunderstanding)

funnily enough I should, given a little time (and a little less booze) be able to present a fossil record of the development of rights, uneven and with many evolutionary off shoots (libertarianism being one). we will be able to view rights developing over time.

how, if they developed over time, could we arrive at natural rights? we could arrive at refined rights, developed rights, legacy rights no problemo, i just have a hard time accepting that all the greatest minds of history did not stumble accross the same natural rights as your particular band of libertarianism. or that they didnt all branch off from the stem of natural rights.

I cannot agree that people went about purposefully denying peoplye their natural rights, that were only defined relatively recently, rather than applying their societal norms - for example Nobility, slaves and women. Their rights were inherently different and many at the time would have claimed that order as "natural",

"Natural" seems to be a weasel word designed, i think to try to own debate, who could be against something natural. - a bit like pro-life!

 Quote:

P.s. So, how are those EU fishermen doing now that we resolved their dilemma?:-)


im contemplating my response, I want to be careful that that strand of this thread doesnt end up being a pantomime: "oh no he didnt, OH YES HE DID". rest assured I will come back to you, hopefully with something exploratory or constructive.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 06:05 PM

Just food for thought.
 Quote:
The question of which (if any) rights are natural and which are merely legal is an important one in philosophy and politics. Critics of the concept of natural rights argue that the only rights that exist are legal rights, while proponents of the concept of natural rights say that documents such as the United States Declaration of Independence and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights demonstrate the usefulness of recognizing natural rights. The focus of natural rights in the United States Declaration of Independence is expressed in the legal philosophy known as Declarationism.

The theory of natural law is closely related to the theory of natural rights. During the Age of Enlightenment, natural law theory challenged the divine right of kings, and became an alternative justification for the establishment of a social contract, positive law, and government — and thus legal rights — in the form of classical republicanism. Conversely, the concept of natural rights is used by some anarchists to challenge the legitimacy of all such political establishments[citation needed].

The idea of human rights is also closely related to that of natural rights; some recognize no difference between the two and regard both as labels for the same thing, while others choose to keep the terms separate to eliminate association with some features traditionally associated with natural rights.[2] Natural rights, in particular, are considered beyond the authority of any government or international body to dismiss. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is an important legal instrument enshrining one conception of natural rights into international soft law.

The idea that animals have natural rights is one that has gained the interest of philosophers and legal scholars in the 20th century[3], and as such, even on a natural rights conception of human rights, the two terms may not be synonymous.While the existence of legal rights has always been uncontroversial, the idea that certain rights are natural or inalienable also has a long history dating back at least to the Stoics of Late Antiquity, and descending through the Protestant Reformation and the Age of Enlightenment to today.

Ancient history

The Stoics held that no one was a slave by their nature; slavery was an external condition juxtaposed to the internal freedom of the soul (sui juris). Seneca the Younger wrote:
“ It is a mistake to imagine that slavery pervades a man's whole being; the better part of him is exempt from it: the body indeed is subjected and in the power of a master, but the mind is independent, and indeed is so free and wild, that it cannot be restrained even by this prison of the body, wherein it is confined.[4] ”

Likewise, the notion of inalienable rights was found in early Islamic law and jurisprudence, which denied a ruler "the right to take away from his subjects certain rights which inhere in his or her person as a human being." Islamic rulers could not take away certain rights from their subjects on the basis that "they become rights by reason of the fact that they are given to a subject by a law and from a source which no ruler can question or alter."[5] These ideas may have later influenced John Locke's concept of inalienable rights through his attendance of lectures given by Edward Pococke, a professor of Arabic studies.[6]

Source
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 06:10 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos

Please understand, Phil, I do appreciate that several of you deigned to descend from Mt. Olympus, even if only briefly, to bestow upon this mere mortal the perceived wisdom of your paradigm. Your proclamation is again noted.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


Your posts display all the arrogance and logic of Ann Coulter, NancyVideo, and Rush Limbaugh.

Of course, I know that the seemingly irksome statement quoted above was tongue in cheek!
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 06:44 PM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Greger, no one is "bashing" issodhos nor anyone else, we are, however, challenging some assertions and that is what this board does so well.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 08:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Allow me to first repeat, with emphasis added, what I have previously written, which was, “My view is that rights are inalienable and pre-exist the state and also pre-exist any agreement made among men to recognize them.” Please note that I did not write that they pre-existed man. I also wrote that “rights are integral to the human mind” which is to say they are integral to man. They are essential to the completeness of man and reflect the nature of man, not nature in general, not ‘natural’ man, but the nature of man.
Yours,
Issodhos


Is there any reason why we would regard the above statment as anything other than a statement of your own personal opinion?
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 08:55 PM

The nature of man is the same as the nature of a leopard; we are simply more highly sophisticated in our ability to abstract it beyond all relationship to the natural world in which we live. Sadly, we will destroy most of life on this planet in the process of exercising our invented rights, increased over time to feed the egos that make us the tragic creatures we are.

Oh. And yes, that is simply my opinion.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 09:04 PM

That, my friend, is more than just an opinion. It's a wise observation and a clear prediction of the future.
Man has the ability to change it.
But he wont.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 11:07 PM

 Originally Posted By: loganrbt
The nature of man is the same as the nature of a leopard; we are simply more highly sophisticated in our ability to abstract it beyond all relationship to the natural world in which we live.


Rubbish. The natures are quite different. Though I prefer lions as an example.:-)
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Using the words or the Declaration of Independence that recognizes and references pre-existing natural Rights, can we say, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all lions are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Lions, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,--" and have it hold meaning?. When we read that all lions are created equal, this means that all lions are born with the same Rights as all other lions -- neither more nor less.

I would postulate that for individual lions to have Rights, lions as a whole must know that each lion has the Right to life. Lions as a whole must recognize that if they infringe upon the Right to life of another non-aggressor lion (by killing it for example), they could be held accountable by other lions for having done so. Is there any evidence that lions hold each other accountable for killing other non-aggressor lions? Not that I know of. Do lions aggress against and kill other non-aggressor lions? According to researchers, male lions will kill the cubs of other male lions, so yes, they do. In doing so are they held accountable by other lions? No, because it is the nature of a male lion to kill the cubs of other male lions. I would suggest that because a lion cannot recognize the Rights of other lions, neither it nor any other lion can have Rights as expressed and recognized by a human for other humans.

Do Animals have Rights?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 11:24 PM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
But lets get history correct. Early humans had first to develop a sense of "self" before either ownership or rights could be conceived of. That took many millenia to come about. As it developed, most small hunter-gatherer clusters evolved into chiefdoms which is when the first concept of differentiation of role and place occurred.

I am amazed at how you or anyone else knows when "the first concept of differentiation of role and place occured", Phil. How far back must one go to establish such a thing? Ida ? Lucy ?

[quote=Phil Hoskins]The concept of rights sprang from the ego developed mind of man and those with an interest in stability and order found it expedient to use the state to enforce claims of right.


In other words, it “sprang” from the nature of man who eventually recognized that securing those rights was a valid reason for instituting governments among men.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 11:26 PM

 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Allow me to first repeat, with emphasis added, what I have previously written, which was, “My view is that rights are inalienable and pre-exist the state and also pre-exist any agreement made among men to recognize them.” Please note that I did not write that they pre-existed man. I also wrote that “rights are integral to the human mind” which is to say they are integral to man. They are essential to the completeness of man and reflect the nature of man, not nature in general, not ‘natural’ man, but the nature of man.
Yours,
Issodhos


Is there any reason why we would regard the above statment as anything other than a statement of your own personal opinion?

Is there any place in the quote where I attribute it to another?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 11:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Ardy

Is there any reason why we would regard the above statment as anything other than a statement of your own personal opinion?

Is there any place in the quote where I attribute it to another?
Yours,
Issodhos


So, I just want to be clear that what you are saying is your opinion about the subject... and when you say
 Originally Posted By: issodhos

In other words, Rights are "inherent".
Yours,
Issodhos


YOu are not stating a fact, you are stating an opinion
it is your own personal definition that human rights are inherent.

And that reality appears to make your opnin on this subject notional in the followinng meaning of the word...
"Speculative, theoretical, not the result of research."
link

Ardy



Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/22/09 11:56 PM

There was no springing from the nature of anything issodhos, rather the notion (yes it is "notional") grew over eons of time from the heads of mankind. Your is a circular argument and dependent upon belief not facts. As such I acknowledge it, but find it fools gold -- there is no "there" there.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 12:15 AM

Rubbish is it? You just love those self-descriptive terms, don't you?

Even a casual review of the many shattered elements of "nature" that make "man" unique from other forms of animal life documents how ephemeral is our self-ascribed sense of superiority over other animals that populate the earth (language, tools, opposable thumbs, societal behavior, etc).

The only element of our nature that truly makes us unique is our willingness to despoil our own nest, an absurd form of behavior that virtually every other animal avoids. You may wish to pretend that you are in some way different from the large predator cats, but the only real difference is your ability to believe yourself superior.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 02:29 AM

 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Ardy

Is there any reason why we would regard the above statment as anything other than a statement of your own personal opinion?

Is there any place in the quote where I attribute it to another?
Yours,
Issodhos


So, I just want to be clear that what you are saying is your opinion about the subject... and when you say
 Originally Posted By: issodhos

In other words, Rights are "inherent".
Yours,
Issodhos


YOu are not stating a fact, you are stating an opinion
it is your own personal definition that human rights are inherent.

And that reality appears to make your opnin on this subject notional in the followinng meaning of the word...
"Speculative, theoretical, not the result of research."


Based on the study of the nature of man, Ardy. I thought we did this dance in a previous thread.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 02:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
As such I acknowledge it, but find it fools gold -- there is no "there" there.


And your argument is that you or someone else knows when man had a eureka moment in both political concept and the concept of property -- how many hundreds of thousands of years ago? Not buying it, Phil.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. Given the cheese posts, the critter prattle, and the apparent desire of posters to get away from the "practical" impact of applying libertarian-oriented thought, I suspect this thread is devolving back down to the same level originally established by the opening post. I remain, for the time being, your huckleberry. If anyone has anymore scenarios they wish to present for a possible libertarian solution, I am remain at your disposal.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 02:49 AM

 Originally Posted By: loganrbt
Rubbish is it? You just love those self-descriptive terms, don't you?

Even a casual review of the many shattered elements of "nature" that make "man" unique from other forms of animal life documents how ephemeral is our self-ascribed sense of superiority over other animals that populate the earth (language, tools, opposable thumbs, societal behavior, etc).


I encourage you to re-read my post, loganrbt. I made no claim to man being superior. I did make the claim that his nature was different from the nature of a leopard -- and by extension, other animals. I could, but I did not.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 02:52 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
As such I acknowledge it, but find it fools gold -- there is no "there" there.


And your argument is that you or someone else knows when man had a eureka moment in both political concept and the concept of property -- how many hundreds of thousands of years ago? Not buying it, Phil.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. Given the cheese posts, the critter prattle, and the apparent desire of posters to get away from the "practical" impact of applying libertarian-oriented thought, I suspect this thread is devolving back down to the same level originally established by the opening post. I remain, for the time being, your huckleberry. If anyone has anymore scenarios they wish to present for a possible libertarian solution, I am remain at your disposal.
Yours,
Issodhos


You can try to demean others, but you have come up with nothing but the most inane, self referencing and assumptive reasons to support you positions.

What I wanted to accomplish on this thread was to demonstrate the completely vacuous nature of libertarian thinking, and you have done the job beyond my wildest hopes.

Thank you.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 03:22 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
As such I acknowledge it, but find it fools gold -- there is no "there" there.


And your argument is that you or someone else knows when man had a eureka moment in both political concept and the concept of property -- how many hundreds of thousands of years ago? Not buying it, Phil.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. Given the cheese posts, the critter prattle, and the apparent desire of posters to get away from the "practical" impact of applying libertarian-oriented thought, I suspect this thread is devolving back down to the same level originally established by the opening post. I remain, for the time being, your huckleberry. If anyone has anymore scenarios they wish to present for a possible libertarian solution, I am remain at your disposal.
Yours,
Issodhos


You can try to demean others, but you have come up with nothing but the most inane, self referencing and assumptive reasons to support you positions.

What I wanted to accomplish on this thread was to demonstrate the completely vacuous nature of libertarian thinking, and you have done the job beyond my wildest hopes.
Thank you.


Actually, what I have seen is a stampede by you and others away from the very topic you claimed you wanted to address, hoping to find firmer ground from which to toss spit-balls about cheese, cave men, leopards, knowledge of prehistoric man's mental awareness, and anything that would deminish rights to mere privilege controlled, granted, defined, and manipulated by an elite few. Nice try.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 03:47 AM

You are funny, issodhos, good luck with that.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 04:02 AM

By the way, kudos to Schlack, olyve, and Gregor for their fair approach to the subject.:-)
Yours in appreciation,
Issodhos
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 04:29 AM

It so happens that I am a firm believer in fundamental human rights, but to assert that they have any meaningful existence independent of their recognition by societal authority is just plain silly. The Declaration of Independence does not assert such a condition, nor does the Constitution. As noted in the Declaration
 Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
(Emphasis added.) It is the declaration of such rights that gives them meaning, and they remain meaningful only so long as they are protected by the instruments of social authority. So much for social theory.

Now, I took this entire thread to be intended to address the inability of libertarianism to provide meaningful solutions to real-world problems. Libertarianism is, and always has been, a theoretical proposition. Nothing produced here, or really anywhere else, has ever demonstrated otherwise. Issodhos apparently doesn't like cheese, so let me give another reference that may, perhaps, be more germane to illustrating the relevance of libertarianism to practical political discourse: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 05:14 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It so happens that I am a firm believer in fundamental human rights,

Human rights? No one has been discussing human rights, NWP, yet, as you so often do, you insert and argue a point not made. If nothing else, you are a good source for examples of ignoratio elenchi.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 05:35 AM

I'm sorry, Iss. All this time I assumed you were human...
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 11:41 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins


What I wanted to accomplish on this thread was to demonstrate the completely vacuous nature of libertarian thinking, and you have done the job beyond my wildest hopes.

Thank you.


Not to mention, proving your other thesis about the vacuous nature of the Internet!
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 11:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: loganrbt
Rubbish is it? You just love those self-descriptive terms, don't you?

Even a casual review of the many shattered elements of "nature" that make "man" unique from other forms of animal life documents how ephemeral is our self-ascribed sense of superiority over other animals that populate the earth (language, tools, opposable thumbs, societal behavior, etc).


I encourage you to re-read my post, loganrbt. I made no claim to man being superior. I did make the claim that his nature was different from the nature of a leopard -- and by extension, other animals. I could, but I did not.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos


Nor did anyone suggest you had, Iss. But I suppose if your posts represent your manner of thinking, then one could believe you truly don't understand the difference between a general observation and a direct implication. In the self-centered universe from which your posts appear to emanate, I suppose everything seems to be about you.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 02:12 PM

Once again it comes down to throwing insults. Issodhos can certainly be insufferable can't he? No one has come close to convincing me that Libertarianism can't work though, at least as well as Communism, Fascism, Socialism, Monarchism, Naziism, Totalitarianism, Botulism, Budhism or Bokononism.

I am fully convinced that Anarchism cannot work, that man will eventually succumb to extinction due to a loss of suitable habitat, that he is really an animal. That rights are only in our heads and that governments are created by the strongest to control the weakest. Americanism has worked for a couple hundred years but it appears to be collapsing as all the gold is running uphill, Issodhos offers a possible, unusual(probably unworkable) solution but an inability to communicate, or acccept his vision long enough to think it through without getting angry or frustrated makes it nearly impossible to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of Government under Libertarian Leadership.

Not some imaginary government. Our government. Our Constitution. Our three branches. Our Military our Laws and our Population. Not Liberal, not Conservative, but something altogether different.

I believe it would help, Issodhos, if just once in a while, whether you are or not, you would admit to being less than infallible, or give up a point for the sake of the game.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 03:38 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I'm sorry, Iss. All this time I assumed you were human...


Well, there you go then, NW Ponderer. There are somethings you just should not assume -- especially when on the Internut.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 03:41 PM

Issodhos is correct that we have been here before, as he referenced some of our previous efforts. We run down the same circular path and end up following the same circular patterns - chicken-and-egg style. As Greger points out, many of our frustrations stem from the same sources. Phil has noted in several threads that it is difficult to carry on discussions in the presence of certain communication styles (indeed, that is often the purpose), and that real substance is often difficult to find on the internet. Can progress be made? I have my doubts. I enjoy a good debate, but resent a lousy one.

I have my views, and over time they have become ingrained, not because I believe I am superior, but because over time, having thought them through thoroughly and allowed them to be challenged, they have stood up and remained logically and empirically consistent. I have rejected approaches that don't meet this criteria. I like a challenge, especially an intellectual one, and I love the give and take of a passionate debate. We live in interesting and difficult times, and there are real-world challenges that need solutions. Sometimes outside-the-box thinking will bring them, so I am always willing to entertain those types of solutions. Issodhos mentioned a commercial fishing rights solution, which, ironically, is a solution already implemented in the Northwest, and not a particularly libertarian one (since someone has to create/impose/police the zones, set catch limits, and perform the empirical data collection to determine efficacy). I don't much care where these solutions come from, so long as they are pragmatic and take into account human behavior. That is one of the reasons that I have been impressed by the Obama administration so far - they look for solutions in various places, try to determine what is possible, and try to implement them in ways that are concordant with human behavior. It really is a different approach to governance, and it will be fun to watch it develop.

So, I am not going to get drawn further into a meaningless debate over angels and pins - whether one describes something as an "interest," a "human right," a "civil right," an "inherent right," an "in(un)alienable right," a "fundamental interest," "basic liberty" or "privilege" is really unimportant in this context (except as a distraction from the substance) - what is important is whether such interests can be identified, evaluated, and determined to be important enough to protect with societal authority. I believe some are, and others must give way to the interest of the common good (the collective interest). The balance between them changes constantly as circumstances change. Life is a balancing act, and human society, made up of living creatures, is inherently about striking balances. It is that balance that is important.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 03:46 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
I believe it would help, Issodhos, if just once in a while, whether you are or not, you would admit to being less than infallible, or give up a point for the sake of the game.

I say, bit of a stretch, that, wot. A jolly good thing for the game, then? Hmmm... but, do you think anyone would be fooled by such an obviously outlandish ploy?;-)
Yours in clarity,
Issodhos
BHWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!:-)
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 04:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

what is important is whether such interests can be identified, evaluated, and determined to be important enough to protect with societal authority. I believe some are, and others must give way to the interest of the common good (the collective interest). The balance between them changes constantly as circumstances change. Life is a balancing act, and human society, made up of living creatures, is inherently about striking balances. It is that balance that is important.



BRAVO, NWP!

Some may say that what you wrote is obvious; but sometimes we cannot be reminded of the obvious too much!

-
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 04:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger

Seneca the Younger wrote:
“ It is a mistake to imagine that slavery pervades a man's whole being; the better part of him is exempt from it: the body indeed is subjected and in the power of a master, but the mind is independent, and indeed is so free and wild, that it cannot be restrained even by this prison of the body, wherein it is confined.”



Well, we have certainly made great progress since Seneca's day!

The techniques of the mass info-tainment media, government propaganda, religion, "public relations," advertising, subliminal manipulation, etc. etc. now make it possible to bend the minds of modern "consumer-units" [George H. W. Bush's phrase] to whatever shape is desired, as easily as a Roman slave-master bent the bodies of his slaves to his will.

Oh, and by the way, how is libertarianism going to deal with this aspect of the modern world? ;\)

Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 04:37 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
No one has come close to convincing me that Libertarianism can't work though, at least as well as Communism,

That is not a high bar for success. But, for purpose of discussion, I will agree that libertarianism will work approximately as well as communism.
 Quote:

Issodhos offers a possible, unusual(probably unworkable) solution but an inability to communicate, or accept his vision long enough to think it through without getting angry or frustrated makes it nearly impossible to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of Government under Libertarian Leadership.

Not Liberal, not Conservative, but something altogether different.


Gregor...
IMO you have stumbled upon what is IMO the crux of the discussion. IMO Libertarianism does not provide a solid basis for governance because it is fundamentally oppositional in nature. While it "appears" to be for something, IMO it is fundamentally defined by it's opposition to the various infringements of rights. As such, libertarianism can critique the flaws of any existing system... and lament that a perfect government would be one which eliminates those flaws.

People have tried to create various sorts of Utopian communities. These have had varying degrees of success and failure. But I am not aware that there has even been an attempt to create a Utopian libertarian community. I think this is no accident.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 05:20 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
Once again it comes down to throwing insults.

Flip the coin often enough and you find it has two sides. Though your premise is flawed.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 05:42 PM

Communism? Not a high bar? How much chit you got in your house that says "made in china"? Who does your government borrow money from when they can't run the printing presses fast enough? That would be Communist China. I know, I know it's not really a communist utopia, but it seems to work ok. It's still a Communist Influenced Society, and so, without further ado, you admit a Libertarian Influenced Society might work at least as well as China.

That's really just an aside though, Ardy, my real question is this:
What makes you think I stumbled? I've been over that bridge before and tried to spook the troll out. It's not Libertarianism that's confrontational it's the Libertarians themselves.

The United States itself is a Libertarian Utopia. The Land of Liberty! Freedom and Justice for all! The Statue of Liberty, The Liberty Bell, the Liberty Half Dollar, we are a society based on Liberty Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, The Bill of Rights. the right to bear arms the right to remain silent. Send us your poor, your tired. your huddled masses yearning to be free!

Liberty: 1: the quality or state of being free: a: the power to do as one pleases b: freedom from physical restraint c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e: the power of choice

Libertarianism is a term used by a broad spectrum[1] of political philosophies which seek to maximize individual liberty[2], which they see as requiring minimization of state power over individuals' personal and economic decisions

The word libertarian is an antonym of authoritarian.

Oh nevermind, I'm probably barking up the wrong tree.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 05:53 PM

Phil,
They Shoot Horsed, Don't They? Is it time for this thread to die? Just wondering. It is looking like a very old Michael Sarrazin flick.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 06:07 PM

 Originally Posted By: loganrbt

Phil,
They Shoot Horsed, Don't They? Is it time for this thread to die? Just wondering.



It's a dead horse that people just love to beat! ;\)

-
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 07:06 PM

 Quote:
Is it time for this thread to die?

You may feel free to stop reading and posting on this thread at any time and considering it dead. Personally, I've had a lot of fun here, I've enjoyed the various views from all sides and I've tried to point out a few weaknesses in a few proclamations. I've made some points and conceded some points. All in all I believe it's been a good thread and a lively discussion.

Yours in Liberty;)
Greger
Posted by: Ardy

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 07:26 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
Communism? Not a high bar? How much chit you got in your house that says "made in china"? Who does your government borrow money from when they can't run the printing presses fast enough? That would be Communist China.


Oh please
China is not much for communism any more... I think Cuba is the only country I can think of that come remotely close to being communist. And even there, I think a person has to draw a distinction between theoretical political ideology and the practical political reality. And THAT is the clear distinction I would draw between libertarian theory and any conceivable libertarian government. I think a libertarian government would be libertarian in the same way as communists... governments that hold only to the pretense of communist principals while practical governing reality drove them all closer to fascism.
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 07:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
 Quote:
Is it time for this thread to die?

You may feel free to stop reading and posting on this thread at any time and considering it dead. Personally, I've had a lot of fun here, I've enjoyed the various views from all sides and I've tried to point out a few weaknesses in a few proclamations. I've made some points and conceded some points. All in all I believe it's been a good thread and a lively discussion.

Yours in Liberty;)
Greger


So kind of you to grant me that freedom. Enjoying your new look signature block. Where DO you get your inspiration these days?
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 11:03 PM

[quote=Greger]
 Quote:
Is it time for this thread to die?


Probably best to leave it open until the choir gets over its fluster-fit. Only seems polite.:-)

In the meantime....


Two cavemen are in discussion:

Grog: That is a nice bow you made, Splog.
Splog: Thank you, Grog. I am satisfied with my efforts.

(Yes, cavemen were exceedingly polite. No, I do not know why.)

Grog: I think I will have it.
Splog: I think not, Grog.

Grog: Why not?

(Splog’s eyes glaze over and he sits, motionless)[/size]

Grog: What are you doing, Splog?

Splog: I am trying to conceptualize why I think you cannot have it. I suspect that I am attempting to have a notional moment relative to the bow.

Grog: What the heck is that?

Splog: I think it is one of those evolution things we have heard about, but, I suspect I will have to wait for government
before a concept explaining why I won’t let you have the bow
can be reified in this world.

(yes, cavemen also tended to use big words)

Grog: Government? What’s government? Come to think of it, what’s “reified”?

Splog: Government is the God whose arrival we must await before we are able to .. uh .. to .. well, I can’t say until government reifies it for me, can I?

Grog: You mean it’s that ol’, “which came first, the government or the concept?” puzzle?
Splog: Sorta.

Grog: Deep.

Grog: About that bow.
Splog: I’ll bust your head.

Yours in humor,:-)
Issodhos
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 11:49 PM

 Quote:
Oh please
China is not much for communism any more...

I know, the analogy was weak. They sorta claim to be communist though. Much like the United States still claims to have the Liberty it was founded on. What about that analogy? That the US was actually an attempt at a Libertarian Utopia? Granted there was no such thing as Libertarians yet but I still think it holds water. It's like Grog and Splog, what came first Liberty or Libertarians?
 Quote:
I think a libertarian government would be as libertarian in the same way as communists governments held only to the pretense of communist principals.,,, while practical governing reality drove them all closer to fascism.


And that's where we find ourselves today.
Spot on Ardy!
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 09:36 PM

But Greger, you have stated something that is not true. The United States was never based upon libertarian philosophy, for as has been pointed out several times here the founders specifically avoided such a proposition.

This nation was formed out of necessity, as are all others. In doing so, those who shaped it adopted an enlightened pragmatism, one with a lot of "we" and "common" and other "collectivist" terms.

The fact that the Bill of Rights cam after points to a concern they may have gone too far in the minds of some, but not that we were founded as an "individualist" state.
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 11:17 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Issodhos is correct that we have been here before, as he referenced some of our previous efforts. We run down the same circular path and end up following the same circular patterns - chicken-and-egg style...

Not necessarily a [bad | unexpected] place to be, assuming the skill of the opponents. Like a couple of really good fencers going at it, and at the end of each foray it will almost seem as if they have gone repeatedly through the Grand Salute and nothing more - even though the careful observer is aware of the speed and skill applied by both sides.

 Quote:
I have my views, and over time they have become ingrained, not because I believe I am superior, but because over time, having thought them through thoroughly and allowed them to be challenged, they have stood up and remained logically and empirically consistent. I have rejected approaches that don't meet this criteria....

Have you considered the novel notion that Issodhos has done exactly the same for his position?

Why have I again gotten the impression that all too many here are basing their arguments on the thoroughly unwarranted assumption that Issodhos is - to borrow from another thread another poster's description of what he himself was not - some stereotypical kind of banjo-playing, Deliverance-level right-wing cretin wearing camo pants, a "cold, dead hand" tee-shirt, a Skoal cap, clutching a firearm that is merely a phallic symbol, sporting blue-blocker sunglasses and a Mike Ditka mustache?

 Quote:
I like a challenge, especially an intellectual one, and I love the give and take of a passionate debate....

And I think that this thread has demonstrated, as have similar ones in the past, both the intellect and the passion of the participants.

 Quote:
So, I am not going to get drawn further into a meaningless debate over angels and pins - whether one describes something as an "interest," a "human right," a "civil right....

You might consider also that your redoubtable libertarian opponent is equally unhappy with having his position distorted and misrepresented, or even a brand new one invented for him that he is expected to defend.
Posted by: itstarted

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/23/09 11:39 PM

itstarted (nervously enters the room)

ummm... I got lost on the first page when liberty and government got mixed in together. My brother-in-law would put the question this way... "Do you walk to work, or carry your lunch?"

Interesting discussion all the way through the 13 pages. Seems to me that the very word "government" puts the lie to all of the definitions I could find. Even the most abstract and "liberal" law, by definition impinges on some "liberty".

What can anyone be "for"... that doesn't become an "against" to someone else.

After reading a few hours worth of essays on the Libertarianism website, I come away with a feeling that "sweetness" is the best description of the general position of the membership.

It seems like the advocates want freedom from government , only until something goes wrong... and then government should step in.

Is this weird of what? Don't make any rules untiil someone gets hurt?

I'm hiding under age, and early onset to account for my vapidity.

... just stopped by to tell you I enjoyed the discourse.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 01:14 AM

Thanks Phil, for grounding me ;\) being a Collectivist and practically a Socialist these days I think I like your vision better than the one I created. I like this America, one where we have collective rights and individual rights, An America that takes care of it's own and for the most part lets me run free to do as I choose. The United States was based on Liberty and Freedom. it's taken a turn towards fascism but I believe it can turn away. Probably not in my lifetime but someday it will come to it's senses. Libertarian Philosophy is based on Liberty and Freedom. Sometimes I think it's ahead of it's time, man has simply not evolved far enough yet to handle that sort of individual responsibility, maybe some have, but not enough. Maybe some day but not yet.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 02:02 AM

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
This nation was formed out of necessity, as are all others. In doing so, those who shaped it adopted an enlightened pragmatism, one with a lot of "we" and "common" and other "collectivist" terms.

The fact that the Bill of Rights cam after points to a concern they may have gone too far in the minds of some, but not that we were founded as an "individualist" state.


Codswaddle. Your use of ambiguity aside, America was founded on political individualism. It is quite distinct from your and others continued attempts to substitute for it the strawman of mere individualism.

There is also a vast difference between your use of "collectivist" to insinuate a "group" effort or agreement, and political collectism which is reflective of movements such as fascism, communism, and socialism.

 Quote:
In political philosophy, the individualist theory of government holds that the state should protect the liberty of individuals to act as they wish as long they do not infringe on the liberties of others. This contrasts with collectivist political theories, where, rather than leaving individuals to pursue their own ends, the state ensures that the individual serves the whole society. The term has also been used to describe "individual initiative" and "freedom of the individual." This theory is described well by "laissez faire," which means in French "let [the people] do" [for themselves what they know how to do]. This term is commonly associated with a free market system in economics, where individuals and businesses own and control the majority of factors of production. Government interferences are kept to a minimum.

Individualists are chiefly concerned with protecting individual autonomy against obligations imposed by social institutions (such as the state). Many individualists believe in protecting the liberties of the minority from the wishes of the majority. Thus, individualists oppose democratic systems without constitutional protections existing that do not allow individual liberty to be diminished by the interests of the majority. These concerns encompass both civil and economic liberties. For example, they oppose any concentration of commercial and industrial enterprise in the hands of the state, and the municipality. The principles upon which this opposition is based are mainly twofold: that popularly-elected representatives are not likely to have the qualifications, or the sense of responsibility, required for dealing with the multitudinous enterprises, and the large sums of public money involved in civic administration; and that the "health of the state" depends upon the exertions of individuals for their personal benefit (who, "like cells", are the containers of the life of the body).

SOURCE:
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 02:09 AM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
I like this America, one where we have collective rights and individual rights ...


What is a "collective right" and how is it exercised?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 03:28 AM

A collective right is what happens when Smokin' Joe, Ali, and George Forman all catch the same chin at the same time.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 04:35 AM

Other than the term "Codswaddle" (a derivative of the term Codswallop), I'm not sure I followed any of the rest of your argument, Issodhos:
 Quote:
Your use of ambiguity aside, America was founded on political individualism. It is quite distinct from your and others continued attempts to substitute for it the strawman of mere individualism.

There is also a vast difference between your use of "collectivist" to insinuate a "group" effort or agreement, and political collectism which is reflective of movements such as fascism, communism, and socialism.
I take it that you disagree with Phil, and some unnamed others (I suspect I am among them), but I don't know what it is you are responding to. "America was founded on political individualism"? As opposed to "mere individualism"? Where is the strawman, exactly? And are we really arguing about the usage of "collectivism"? Seriously? What is the government but a collective, by definition? Are all of those phrases like "we the people" and "the right of the people" irrelevant to the discussion? Dang... Oops, I did it again.

Sorry, I didn't mean to inject any logic or context back into the thread.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 05:28 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sorry, I didn't mean to inject any logic or context back into the thread.


Not to fear, NW Ponderer. You didn't.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 11:16 AM

 Quote:

What is a "collective right" and how is it exercised?


A "collective right" really is nothing more than a group of individuals claiming the same individual rights. It differs from mob rule somewhat since said rights are unalienable but The State has an awkward tendency to try to alienate people from those unalienable rights.

Here in The United States we exercised our collective rights first by Declaring our Independence from British Monarchic rule, then by ratifying a Constitution that restrained The State from usurping our rights.

The NRA and it's battle to preserve the Second Amendment is a bad example but at least one that Libertarians can side with.
The right to bear arms has existed since Grog and Splog used Sharpened sticks to kill prey and protect their stuff. The right to local control has existed since Madame Splog said "Excuse me, Grog, but you can't bring your sharpened stick into my tent. Please leave it outside."

The NRA is an association. An association is a "collective".
The right to bear arms is an individual right. When it is claimed and protected by a collective it becomes a "collective right", Right?

Later edit: an association is a legal collective not a political collective.

Posted by: olyve

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 12:22 PM

 Originally Posted By: itstarted
"Do you walk to work, or carry your lunch?"
LOL, yeah! I grew up with that saying...

 Originally Posted By: itstarted
itstarted (nervously enters the room)

ummm... I got lost on the first page when liberty and government got mixed in together. My brother-in-law would put the question this way... "Do you walk to work, or carry your lunch?"

Interesting discussion all the way through the 13 pages. Seems to me that the very word "government" puts the lie to all of the definitions I could find. Even the most abstract and "liberal" law, by definition impinges on some "liberty".

What can anyone be "for"... that doesn't become an "against" to someone else.

After reading a few hours worth of essays on the Libertarianism website, I come away with a feeling that "sweetness" is the best description of the general position of the membership.

It seems like the advocates want freedom from government , only until something goes wrong... and then government should step in.

Is this weird of what? Don't make any rules untiil someone gets hurt?


I'm hiding under age, and early onset to account for my vapidity.

... just stopped by to tell you I enjoyed the discourse.

Oh me too.
I've enjoyed it too.
You speak my mind, It. Thanks.
Weird indeed.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 01:26 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
 Quote:

What is a "collective right" and how is it exercised?


A "collective right" really is nothing more than a group of individuals claiming the same individual rights.


When a group of people act in concert to protect an individual right, they are exercising their individual right of association and their individual right to assemble. In so doing, they are engaging in a voluntary collective effort while each exercises her individual right to associate or assemble.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 01:33 PM

 Originally Posted By: itstarted
itstarted (nervously enters the room)
After reading a few hours worth of essays on the Libertarianism website, ...


the Libertarian website? Are you referring to the website of a political party?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: itstarted

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 02:28 PM

 Quote:
the Libertarian website? Are you referring to the website of a political party?
Yours,
Issodhos


Note "the Libertarianism website" small" "t"
http://www.libertarianism.com/
;\)
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 04:07 PM

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sorry, I didn't mean to inject any logic or context back into the thread.


Not to fear, NW Ponderer. You didn't.;-)
Nor, my friend, did you provide any. ;\)
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 04:30 PM

 Quote:
When a group of people act in concert to protect an individual right, they are exercising their individual right of association and their individual right to assemble. In so doing, they are engaging in a voluntary collective effort while each exercises her individual right to associate or assemble.


That's easy for you to say.........;)
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 04:40 PM

[quote=Greger]
 Quote:


Later edit: an association is a legal collective not a political collective.



depends on the association; not all are legal constructs. Nor are legal and political the only options for an association. for example, I might associate with illegal aliens in order to sample the cuisines of their native countries. neither legal nor political.

a kind of libertarian approach to dining out.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 06:42 PM

That's where we often run in to trouble. Concerning rights
they might be legal rights, or human rights or civil rights, inherent rights, divine rights, inalienable rights, individual or collective rights, property rights or animal rights or even turns to starboard. Which brings to mind another right:
Red Right Return.
One of the most important of the Nautical Rights.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 10:04 PM

-

Sometimes, when I am downtown walking late at night (Yes, I live in a town of 300,000 people where it is safe to walk alone late at night), I will stop at a red light and just stand there. There is no traffic, there are no cops; but I will stand there obeying the traffic regulations. I am not timid; I just like the fact that the traffic system works! It is a moment of aesthetic satisfaction; I savor the immense intricacy of the social co-operation involved!

Maybe I just have a hive-mind? ;\)

Anyway, other times I just walk across the street against the red light, without a second thought --- so I guess I am not completely a zombie!
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 09:40 PM

It is interesting, my friend, that when we accede to the wishes of the majority, granting some of our native autonomy to the interests of others, that we are deemed "zombies." If they had emotions, I suspect that the real zombies would resent that.
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 10:44 PM

 Originally Posted By: Greger
That's where we often run in to trouble. Concerning rights
they might be legal rights, or human rights or civil rights, inherent rights, divine rights, inalienable rights, individual or collective rights, property rights or animal rights or even turns to starboard. Which brings to mind another right:
Red Right Return.
One of the most important of the Nautical Rights.


If you are really interested in the subject, Greger, perhaps you would prefer approaching the subject at its more basic level. Rights such as speech or religion, for example, are referred to as negative rights. They do not require that another be forced to provide them to you. Another form of rights that has been suggested, is positive rights. These would require others be mandated and, if necessary, forced to provide them for you. The Declaration of Human Rights is a mixture of the two. I consider positive rights to be, at best, nothing more than government granted privileges, and at worst violations of the rights of those who would be forced to provide such privileges.

Anyway, if you wish to look into the issue, that is where I would suggest you start.
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: issodhos

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 10:51 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It is interesting, my friend, that when we accede to the wishes of the majority, granting some of our native autonomy to the interests of others, that we are deemed "zombies."


Other than numan's post what else are you basing this "zombie" claim on, NW Ponderer?
Yours,
Issodhos
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/24/09 11:36 PM

Good god, man, can't you leave it alone? The joke was about zombies. I didn't need any reference other than numan's. THTHPPLTHT!
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 03:37 AM

When pursuing a discussion of a philosophy, political or not, it is often a good idea to start with a frame of reference. Does this website, Libertarianism.com, adequately/accurately represent the libertarian viewpoint? Or, are we simply done with the discussion? Or...?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 11:24 AM

 Quote:
Anyway, if you wish to look into the issue, that is where I would suggest you start.

Thank You, Issodhos, I'm really only just beginning to understand your philosophy but am willing to give it as much merit as any other worldview. We can't all agree with all philosophies or philosophers but that's no reason not to respect those different from our own.

Many here don't seem to see,
when arguing Philosophy,
each states beliefs not facts.
They want to win,
somehow to change,
the way the other acts.

Yours in rhyme and reason;)
Greger
Posted by: Schlack

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 11:53 AM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
THTHPPLTHT!


I know youre upset NWP, but theres no need for that kind of language (i belive its Klingon)
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 01:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: Schlack
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
THTHPPLTHT!


I know youre upset NWP, but theres no need for that kind of language (i belive its Klingon)


Schlack, you Philistine! How could you be so lacking in sophistication as to think it was Klingon?

The semi-epithetical utterance by NWP was clearly in Billthecatian, an obscure and now extinct language once spoken only within the confines of Bloom County.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 08:56 PM

Ron, I am truly impressed by your divination of the source. Sometimes the breadth of knowledge found on this board is astounding. And here I thought it was truly obscure. Aack!
Posted by: loganrbt

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 10:04 PM

Ah, Bloom County. And FarSide. I miss them.
Posted by: itstarted

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 11:23 PM

 Quote:
THTHPPLTHT!

... perhaps a comment by Joe Btfsplk?

my memories go back a little further...
Posted by: Ron G.

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 11:50 PM

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
...
And here I thought it was truly obscure. Aack!

Heh!...That's why they pay me the medium bucks. Bfthspffft!
\:\)
Posted by: Greger

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 09:27 PM

Li'l Abner. I remember him well, his luck was much like my own.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/25/09 09:51 PM

Now I am feeling old.... Memories.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/27/09 11:53 PM

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Ah, thank you, Greger for that wonderful image of Joe Btfsplk!

I remember baby lightning bolts coming out of the cloud, though!

Bitter life experience has introduced me to numerous Joe Btfsplks, trailing misfortune and chaos for themselves and others! I have learned to identify these jinxes, and avoid them like the plague --- anthrax!

Do you recognize this other phonetically challenged individual?

Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/28/09 12:24 AM

Has everyone had their say on this thread? if so, I will close it.

Phil Hoskins, moderator.
Posted by: numan

Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid - 05/28/09 12:25 AM

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Why have I never seen an image of George W. Bush as Joe Btfsplk?

What a missed opportunity! ;\)

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