It can never happen here!

Posted by: jgw

It can never happen here! - 01/30/19 09:04 PM

"It could never happen here!" is a common saying and thought. I find it kinda interesting, especially when one considers Venezuela. Venezuela was, at one time, the 4th richest country in the world! They continue to sit on the world's greatest oil deposits, etc.

Now, however, its a bit different. Over 1 million have fled, their inflation rate, last I heard, was something like 10000 percent, they have run out of food, medicine, doctors, and anything else you can think of. Its currently being run by a guy who used to drive a bus! Their oil industry is neither competent or very functional. They got real problems.

So, if the 4th richest nation on the earth can get where Venezuela has gotten, and given our current problems, I would humbly suggest that IT CAN HAPPEN HERE!

OH, and Jackass, our dear leader, is apparently considering going to war with Venezuela as well. So, he is going to save them by conquering them. One can only wonder?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: It can never happen here! - 01/30/19 09:33 PM

Venezuela is not a threat to the United States, but... the Maduro administration, like the Trump administration, is peopled by incompetents and cronies. Corruption and nepotism run rampant. The United States is not, yet, the "failed state" that Venezuela has become, but Republicans are working hard toward that goal. Perhaps the shutdown has opened some eyes. The peril is close.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: It can never happen here! - 01/30/19 09:44 PM

The only open eyes within Trumps circle are people realizing they have to steal it faster before the collapse.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/07/19 05:53 PM

"The US sanctions are illegal under international law because they were not endorsed by the UN Security Council, Mr de Zayas, an expert on international law and a former senior lawyer with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said.

“Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns.

“Twenty-first century sanctions attempt to bring not just a town, but sovereign countries to their knees,” Mr de Zayas said in his report.

The US Treasury has not responded to a request for comment on Mr de Zayas’s allegations of the effects of the sanctions programme."

Full Report

S'funny how a democratically elected socialist government incurs an economic and clandestine jihad against it by the U.S. while the newscorp's start clucking about the will of the people and corruption of the government, ignoring the illegality of our own countries actions.....
Posted by: jgw

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/07/19 07:05 PM

Just keep in mind that a minimum of 30% of the electorate supports Jackass. I am not talking about just passive support but real support, ie. money, active support, and utter belief that Jackass is the only one that can fix all our problems. They also actually believe all the lies about enemies, threats, moral judgments, bogus claims, evil Democrats, etc. If they had a chance, right now, they would be delighted to vote for Jackass to be Dear Leader for life and an end to congress.

Just saying...................
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/07/19 07:15 PM

You conflated Venezuela's democratically elected socialist government to it's economic crises without mentioning the economic jihad begun under Obama and intensified under Current Administration.
Now you are saying that Trump supporters could bring about a similar crises in the U.S.?
You do realize that capitalism is causing the crises in both countries?
Posted by: Greger

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/07/19 11:39 PM

Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/08/19 04:59 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
S'funny how a democratically elected socialist government
... isn't that the fundamental question, though, that you are begging? Guaido's claim to legitimacy rests on the illegitimacy of Maduro's election, and Venezuela's constitutional succession process.

I'm not saying I agree with all of the actions being taken, but I do take issue with your premise.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/08/19 06:24 PM

If you title a thread "It can never happen here!", I suspect it already has happened and you just don't know it yet.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/08/19 08:13 PM

Was there some shady going down in Venezuela during last election? Yeah, probably. Was there shady legal manuevers in Brazil that went down during their last election run up? Yeah, probably.

The U.S. recognizes the fascist elected in Brazil and all that implies, by his own declarations, for the environment, native peoples and political opposition....

The U.S. cries foul in Venezuela and refuses to recognize a socialist President. Freezes the countries overseas financial currencies, places an economic blockade on the country with results not much different than Iraq.

This is a resource grab and we have a bloody history of knocking off governments who don't tow the line and submit to U.S. hegemony. This looks like a redux of Reagans neoliberal foreign policy from Latin America. I'm anticipating some American state violence to commence any time now.

Weather there was some dodgyness in the elections or not, we murder socialist organized brown skin people going back to Mohammad Mosaddegh who dared propose using his countries Oil wealth for social programs to benefit his county's peoples.

We selectively get concerned about legalities when it suits us.

Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/09/19 01:22 AM

You didn't mention OUR election...
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/09/19 07:02 AM

The ironic thing is that Trump is supporting an action in Venezuela much like our Amendment 25: "The elected President must be kicked out because he is unfit to lead." Okay. Now let's remove Trump for the same reason.

I actually agree with Trump. Madura does not seem fit to lead. He has let the oil infrastructure crumble by investing none of the income back into it. That is pretty good evidence he is incompetent. But the same logic has to apply to Trump: He has damaged all sorts of trade agreements, screwed over out allies, aided our adversaries, done his best to make all sorts of government agencies ineffective, committed multiple crimes, sided with murderers (Russia and Saudi Arabia), lined his pockets, etc.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/09/19 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The ironic thing is that Trump is supporting an action in Venezuela much like our Amendment 25: "The elected President must be kicked out because he is unfit to lead." Okay. Now let's remove Trump for the same reason.

I actually agree with Trump. Madura does not seem fit to lead. He has let the oil infrastructure crumble by investing none of the income back into it. That is pretty good evidence he is incompetent. But the same logic has to apply to Trump: He has damaged all sorts of trade agreements, screwed over out allies, aided our adversaries, done his best to make all sorts of government agencies ineffective, committed multiple crimes, sided with murderers (Russia and Saudi Arabia), lined his pockets, etc.


So you agree with the Trump on wether or not to inflict state sponsored violence on a sovereign nation after we've frozen their assets and bled their economy white but you think he's incompetent to be president cuz Russia?! Kashaggi?
Is that about right?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/09/19 02:11 PM

To go against Exxon is to go against the will of god!
The spice must flow!
Just so you can't claim ignorance to not knowing what the implications and motivations are for what appears to be impending US sponsered violence for resource extraction, here's some background on Juan Guaido and his relationship to the current US administration.

Our man in Veneuzala
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/10/19 05:44 AM

The fact that Putin or his buddies had Magnitsky killed and Prince Salmon had Kashaggi killed are just icing on the disastrous cake that is Trump. Invading Venezuela would be the height of stupidity, but nonetheless, I think Madura made unwise decisions for years that got the country to it's current state. There are plenty of other leaders of socialist states that have not screwed up so badly, and the US has done little or nothing to them. We only sanctioned their oil exports 12 days ago! Their troubles started long, long before that.

I suspect that this current US action is just Trump setting another fire, so he can claim to be a great fireman when he puts it out. (Like N. Korea)
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/10/19 02:41 PM

NPR is on the radio framing the situation as economic mismanagement and a humanitarian crises. No where have the mentioned the economic seige that we've been applying as Chavez and Maduro have tried to shift their economy away from a single export economy to a self sustaining mixed economy. They've also invested their oil profits into education, healthcare, infrastructure. Most importantly their domestic food production. Growing food for themsves instead of having to import it from abroad (the US) with their petro profits .
That sounds like pretty good economic stewardship to me PIA. Would you prefer the existing neocolonialism thru debt peonage?
A very good article on the economic situation of Venezuala and the implications for the dollars status of the worlds reserve currency.
The history and implications of Venezuelas economic crises

But hey, it's socialist mismanagement and a humanitarian crises. It has nothing to do with their having the largest PROVEN oil reserves in the world and, besides, we got the Monroe doctrine on our side so let's do this thing!...

USA! USA! USA!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/10/19 03:10 PM

I apologize for bringing up any history that happenned more than 12 days ago
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/11/19 05:31 AM

It's not really socialist mismanagement. It's just plain old mismanagement. Maduro didn't invest some of those oil profits back into keeping the oil flowing. It does little good having the world's greatest oil reserves if you can't get it out of the ground and into the tanker ships. I think spending a large chunk of the oil money on education, agriculture, health care, etc. is a great idea. Spending 100% of it on those things is mismanagement. He's killed the goose that laid the golden egg, so everybody could have roast goose.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/11/19 04:31 PM

It is far more complicated than you allege, chunk, and the reliance on single-miscreant arguments, once again, undercuts otherwise valid points. The Counterfactpunch article is good example. It is largely based on coulda-shoulda-woulda premises and almost entirely devoid of factual support. It's not that it couldn't have done so, just that it didn'a.

For example, it notes that Venezuela doesn't refine is own oil (not entirely true) and blames that on greedy unnamed oily-garchs. What it doesn't note is, that while Venezuela has huge oil reserves, its oil is the lowest grade in the world, thick and sludgy, the hardest to refine. Nor does it note that the foreign oil producers were rightfully concerned about seizure of their assets (which occurred). Nor that Rosnef acquired control of many of those assets.
Quote:
Venezuela’s dwindling production has reduced the country’s influence across Latin America. Where Venezuela once provided subsidized oil to neighbors, now it needs to hoard all it produces in order to be able to pay bondholders, as well as China and Russia, which have loaned almost $69 billion in the past decade in exchange for oil.
Venezuela’s Decline From Oil Powerhouse to Poorhouse
to Madhouse
(Bloomberg BusinessWeek); How Venezuela Struck it Poor (Foreign Policy).

That last citation gives a great overview of how the current conditions developed. Blaming it all on foreign governments is like blaming the mailman for your bills. The reality is much more complex.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/11/19 09:19 PM

I never said it was uncomplicated and believed I referenced the Monroe Doctrine as a reference point to our involvement Latin America.
Miscreant? Whatever.
Here's another counterpunch article that supports your assertions of neglect and abuse of Venezuela's oil industry under Chavez and Modero: Critique of Left wing support on Venezuela

But one could say the same of your Bloomberg and ForiegnPolicy articles NWP. Can you really say that our foriegn policy is not coupled to our economic strategy? To say that our foriegn policy is not focused on oil? What about Hudson's economic analysis was incorrect? Did Chavez not seek to set up a lending scheme to challenge US dominated IMF? I recall that proposal at the time it was introduced to other Latin American countries.

It's amazing how Libs will fall in line over 'humanitarian crises' and back military intervention. Even siding with the despised agent of Russia. Somehow that same indignation doesn't get equal treatment to other areas of the world like, say, Yemen or Flint. Nor does it have much memory of past Fascist despots we've installed in countries around the world. But give em a socialist and watch the 'fiscally conservative, socially liberal' start tearing their shirts off at the inhumanity taking place over there.

I think Chavez made the mistake of going in on state capitalism myself. Let's see what overt or covert intervention brings to the place. Can't think of what could go wrong. Hope your right cuz it looks like this grift won't be bloodless. Not that it matters much
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/11/19 10:08 PM

The errors in Hudson's analysis are legion, and far beyond what will fit here (hence my citations). Yes Chavez proposed a lot of reforms and other proposals, nearly all of which failed or were grossly ill-considered, or both. As was proposed earlier, it was not so much socialist incompetence, just sheer incompetence that doomed Venezuela. The same thing is occurring in our government. Name a cabinet member that is qualified for his or her job. I can't. Like Venezuela, loyalty to the leader trumps competence, and like Chavez and Maduro, it has gotten worse over time.

There are a lot of valid criticisms to be made about our historical interventionism and dimwitted economic exports, but my complaint was that the focus on that over native failures missed the point. I think the parallels between Venezuela's failures and our own was the point of this thread.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/11/19 10:46 PM

Interesting. I found enormous omissions in the articles you submitted NWP.
But you are right that the point is drifting so I'll leave it for others to argue about similarities between a vassal state and declining superpower.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/11/19 11:21 PM

I think Lange-Chirion has it right.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/12/19 01:39 AM

I think the piece purposely omits a lot.

US role in undermining democracy in Venezuela
Posted by: Greger

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/12/19 10:07 PM

And I think that every article you read is going to look at single facets of a very sparkly jewel.

Otherwise those articles would turn into tomes of encyclopedic proportions.

There's trouble in Venezuela. Trump isn't going to help "fix" it.
Posted by: Greger

Re: It can never happen here! - 02/12/19 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
the Maduro administration, like the Trump administration, is peopled by incompetents and cronies. Corruption and nepotism run rampant. The United States is not, yet, the "failed state" that Venezuela has become, but Republicans are working hard toward that goal.


Yeah...it can happen here. A second Trump term could very well take us over the brink.