US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years

Posted by: pdx rick

US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/26/19 04:36 AM

Quote:
The Trump administration reported a river of red ink Friday.

The federal deficit for the 2019 budget year surged 26% from 2018 to $984.4 billion — its highest point in seven years. The gap is widely expected to top $1 trillion in the current budget year and likely remain there for the next decade.

The year-over-year widening in the deficit reflected such factors as revenue lost from the 2017 Trump tax cut and a budget deal that added billions in spending for military and domestic programs.

- ABC News.com

Weird that conservatives no longer care about the deficit. Or, perhaps they only care when there is a Black American President. coffee

That case seems more likely. Hmm
Posted by: rporter314

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/26/19 07:02 PM

That would be Mr Trump acting for the benefit of the whole nation ... ahh I mean the top of the top of the 1%
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/27/19 07:34 PM

No President, from George Washington to Donald Trump, is responsible for our government's deficit spending. Congress and only Congress is responsible for how much our government spends. Sadly the Republicans in Congress have talked about cutting spending but all they did was talk about it. The problem of our government's deficit spending and it's $20,000,000,000,000 debt is caused by the people we elect to Congress. When we elect people to Congress because they promise to spend money, that we don't have, we are responsible for the deficit spending and the debt. The deficit will be reduced when we start electing people to Congress who promise to eliminate government programs. This is not to suggest that all government programs should be eliminated but that there are some that could be. If the elimination of some programs proves to be a mistake those programs can be restored. Here is a list of government programs.
A-Z Index of U.S. Government Department and Agencies
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/27/19 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
No President, from George Washington to Donald Trump, is responsible for our government's deficit spending. Congress and only Congress is responsible for how much our government spends.

Except when the president signs-off the spending bill as Trump did. coffee
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/27/19 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
No President, from George Washington to Donald Trump, is responsible for our government's deficit spending. Congress and only Congress is responsible for how much our government spends. Sadly the Republicans in Congress have talked about cutting spending but all they did was talk about it. The problem of our government's deficit spending and it's $20,000,000,000,000 debt is caused by the people we elect to Congress. When we elect people to Congress because they promise to spend money, that we don't have, we are responsible for the deficit spending and the debt. The deficit will be reduced when we start electing people to Congress who promise to eliminate government programs. This is not to suggest that all government programs should be eliminated but that there are some that could be. If the elimination of some programs proves to be a mistake those programs can be restored. Here is a list of government programs.
A-Z Index of U.S. Government Department and Agencies

How do tax cuts and other revenue-side manipulations figure in - or is cutting spending the only thing that can be done?
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/27/19 08:22 PM

I have been talking about this one for months. It will, by the end of the year, pass 1 TRILLION dollars! So, The Republican party, including Jackass Trump are flat out responsible. Least, but not less, is their incredible tax break which gave away more than a trillion to the richest. This also means that the payments on our debt will soon surpass what we spend on our bloated military.

What may be even more interesting is that, if the Democrats actually win in 2020, they will be facing a situation wherein there is simply no more money. This, of course, means that all the promises are going to either be cut back or simply not done. I have been wondering, for months, why the Dems haven't mentioned this little problem that they will be facing should they win. So, instead of going after the Republicans they seem to have choosen to beat the crap out of one another (with some exceptions).

So, things Democrats kinda ignore, like; Republican debt and The fact that the Democratic house has passed over 300 pieces of legislation whilst the Republican Senate has yet to pass 50.

All in all, as far as I can tell, the Dems seem to be working as hard as they can to not win 2020 and about as hard as Jackass Trump has been 'helping' Russia. One can only wonder if this is some kind of very strange, and destructive, competition.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/27/19 08:45 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
No President, from George Washington to Donald Trump, is responsible for our government's deficit spending. Congress and only Congress is responsible for how much our government spends. Sadly the Republicans in Congress have talked about cutting spending but all they did was talk about it. The problem of our government's deficit spending and it's $20,000,000,000,000 debt is caused by the people we elect to Congress. When we elect people to Congress because they promise to spend money, that we don't have, we are responsible for the deficit spending and the debt. The deficit will be reduced when we start electing people to Congress who promise to eliminate government programs. This is not to suggest that all government programs should be eliminated but that there are some that could be. If the elimination of some programs proves to be a mistake those programs can be restored. Here is a list of government programs.
A-Z Index of U.S. Government Department and Agencies

How do tax cuts and other revenue-side manipulations figure in - or is cutting spending the only thing that can be done?
Cutting spending is the first and most important step to get rid of the deficit. But what does our government do when it reaches the debt ceilings they have imposed? They raise the roof. The problem with tax cuts is the idea that by reducing our government's revenue that will force it cut spending. That has not worked. Whether they are intended to or not a tax cut will benefit the rich. That is because when taxes are cut those who pay the majority of the taxes our government collects, the rich, benefit from them. Pew Research
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/27/19 09:13 PM

Well now, lets see. Jackass Trump proposed the tax cutting budget (actually bragged on it). The congress did pass it but Jackass proposed it. I submit that the whole damned bunch of republicans are responsible (president AND president) for the budget, and the deficit (soon to be added to the debt). Should add that the Republicans, the whole bunch, are responsible for the deficit and what will eventually be a 22 TRILLION dollar debt. This particular tax cut was not only a tax cut but a really generous giveaway to the upper 1%.

Oh well, just another Republican economic disaster that they will leave for the Democrats to clean up. Given that the Democrats have never been able to take over from the Republicans, UNLESS there is some kind of economic disaster, this may actually be a good sign for the Democrats.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/27/19 11:24 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
...just another Republican economic disaster that they will leave for the Democrats to clean up.

Isn't that always the case? Dems are always fixing Republican messes. Hmm

Every economic downturn in the US for the past 120 years has happened on a Republcian's watch. smile
Posted by: perotista

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 12:07 AM

I'll say this, neither party is one bit interested in addressing the national debt. Trump's nearly one trillion deficit, Obama nearly 10 trillion added to the national debt, G.W. Bush's 5 trillion, Bill Clinton's almost 6 trillion and on back to Reagan.

We tend to blame presidents, but before they spend a dime first the house must write and authorize the budget and spending. The senate must agree. The national debt is a product of the two parties holding hands to see how much each can add to it.

Democrats blame Reagan, but they controlled the house and the purse strings. They also controlled the house during G.H.W Bush's presidency. The Republicans controlled the house through Bill Clinton's last six years, the Democrats during G.W. Bush's last two years in which 3 of the 6 trillion was added during G.W. Bush's terms. The GOP controlled the house for Obama's final six years and Trump's first two.

Far as I'm concerned, the House is as much to blame for the ever rising national debt as any president. The senate also as all three must agree to spend, the House, the senate and the president.

Just blaming presidents is much too easy and ignores those who have to write all these spending bills and pass them for the president to sign and spend.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 02:43 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: jgw
...just another Republican economic disaster that they will leave for the Democrats to clean up.

Isn't that always the case? Dems are always fixing Republican messes. Hmm

Every economic downturn in the US for the past 120 years has happened on a Republcian's watch. smile
Here is list of economic downturns in American history. History of Recessions
Here is a list of which party controlled Congress from 1855-2017 Party control of Congress from 1855-2017
In the last 120 years there have been 13 recessions. During that time the Democrats have had control of the House of Representative 10 times and the Senate 8 times with control of both houses 8 times. That means that the majority of times there has been an recession it was on the the Democrats, not the Republicans, watch. So, no it is not the case that Democrats are always cleaning up a Republican mess. Not when a majority of the recessions happened when the Democrats controlled Congress.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 02:52 AM

Quote:
The problem with tax cuts is the idea that by reducing our government's revenue that will force it cut spending.
Not the concept Republicans and Mr Trump promoted. They maintained that by cutting taxes there would be an increase in revenue which would thereby pay for the increase in spending. I whole idea of trickle down is there will be increased economic growth which will offset momentary shortfalls in revenue. No where in the current administration is anyone talking about cutting the budget. What they want to do is cut some programs and transfer the monies to programs they where they want to spend money.


I hope you didn't buy into this nonsense .... o sorry too late ... I see the hook caught in your lip
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 02:53 AM

Sure, the House has to originate all spending bills, the Senate has to sign, and then the President has to agree. or else Congress has to overcome a veto. But the President sets the broad agenda, and presents that to the public.

Or at least that's the way it's supposed to work. The Supreme Court just backed the President's right to take money Congress allocated for one thing and do something else with it. So all bets are off. If you strip the House Power of the Purse, then all they can do about the President diverting money is to impeach him.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 03:02 AM

Senator ... your comment is ludicrous.

No one really knows why economies expand or contract. If they did I would be making millions off that knowledge. To say any particular party in majority directs the economy to expand or contract is nonsensical. If they had such magical powers they would always expand the economy. I mean really ... this is commonsense.

The previous comments were about Republican tax abuses while in power, which has only minor impact on GDP. This is the scenario ... Republicans pass a tax cut ... revenues fall ... budget deficits result .... Democrats have to raise taxes to pay for budget. Now that you know what the context really is, do some research report back with the results. I seem to recollect in the minor context of just budget deficits, it is about evenly distributed between Democrats and Republicans.

But hey ... if you are all about destroying America ... vote for voodoo economics
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 03:27 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
The problem with tax cuts is the idea that by reducing our government's revenue that will force it cut spending.
Not the concept Republicans and Mr Trump promoted. They maintained that by cutting taxes there would be an increase in revenue which would thereby pay for the increase in spending. I whole idea of trickle down is there will be increased economic growth which will offset momentary shortfalls in revenue. No where in the current administration is anyone talking about cutting the budget. What they want to do is cut some programs and transfer the monies to programs they where they want to spend money.


I hope you didn't buy into this nonsense .... o sorry too late ... I see the hook caught in your lip
In the sentence that rporter314 quoted I made a mistake. My mistake was I didn't say that the reduction in revenue from tax cuts is temporary. History has shown that when taxes are cut in the long run they do increase our government's revenue and that there is economic growth when people get to keep more of the money they've earned. The problem is and always will be that our government spends nearly $2 for every $1 it collects in taxes, regardless of who controls Congress or who our President is.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: jgw
...just another Republican economic disaster that they will leave for the Democrats to clean up.

Isn't that always the case? Dems are always fixing Republican messes. Hmm

Every economic downturn in the US for the past 120 years has happened on a Republcian's watch. smile
Here is list of economic downturns in American history. History of Recessions
Here is a list of which party controlled Congress from 1855-2017 Party control of Congress from 1855-2017

Sorry bud, but the President signs spending bills. I get that you can't handle the truth. Hmm
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 04:10 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: jgw
...just another Republican economic disaster that they will leave for the Democrats to clean up.

Isn't that always the case? Dems are always fixing Republican messes. Hmm

Every economic downturn in the US for the past 120 years has happened on a Republcian's watch. smile
Here is list of economic downturns in American history. History of Recessions
Here is a list of which party controlled Congress from 1855-2017 Party control of Congress from 1855-2017

Sorry bud, but the President signs spending bills. I get that you can't handle the truth. Hmm
The truth that you can't handle is that whoever is our President, a Democrat or a Republican, the influence they have on the budget bill that Congress writes is extremely limited. More often than not when the budget bill, if Congress does pass one, lands on our President's desk he has the choice of signing it or to veto it. If a President vetoes the budget bill then our government shuts down. Most Presidents don't want our government to shut down so whether or not they like the budget bill they sign it. To blame any President for a recesssion because he signed a budget bill is naive.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 03:49 PM

Quote:
The problem is and always will be that our government spends nearly $2 for every $1 it collects in taxes, regardless of who controls Congress or who our President is.
First that is not true. If that were the case we would have a $4.5T deficit this year, instead we have about $1T deficit. There is an obvious statement which I will not type.

Regardless of who controls Congress etc. How is it you can recognize that and yet want to assign blame to political parties when they occupy either the WH or Congress for the economy etc? Sounds more like some conservative talking point than it does reality.


Regarding your ideological belief in voodoo economics here is the Tax Policy Center analysis. I would have included CBO analysis but it was spread out. I could have included right wing analysis but they typically only addressed the first part of the TPC analysis by simply saying revenues increased. Of course this is only for Trump's Tax Cut and did not included long term analysis which everyone now predicts will be worse than originally predicted.
Originally Posted By: taxpolicycenter
While some TCJA supporters are touting that nominal revenues were higher in fiscal year (FY) 2018 than in FY2017, that comparison does not address the question of TCJA’s effects. Nominal revenues rise because of inflation and economic growth. Adjusted for inflation, total revenues fell from FY2017 to FY2018. Adjusted for the size of the economy, they fell even more.


There are a lot of problems with your statements.

BTW before you go ballistic on some partisan crapola, it is true and valid tax cuts do increase some things, however it does not do what people who believe in tax cuts believe it will do. Tax cuts have historically always come in far short of predictions and never achieve the results predicted. Even Enterprise Institute is predicting loong term increases in debt and deficits while assuming 4% GDP for the long term. That does not sound good considering current predictions for for an economic contraction in the near future. Think of the deficits then. Think 2008.
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/28/19 06:45 PM

Interesting............. People are always talking about how much Obama added to the debt and he added A LOT! https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-under-obama-3306293 On the other hand we were losing jobs bigtime. In 2008 we lost 2.6 million job alone. That went on for a while. Obama had to bail out the banks as well as get the economy going again. Trump inherited a climbing economy, which had been basically climbing out of a hole for 8 years. There are some that claim that we are living off, right now, the economy that Obama started when he took office. Anyway, Trump, and the Republican party, are going to win the race to be the greatest spendthrift of all time. I am not saying that the Dems haven't also contributed.

The simple fact, however, is that we gotta get it all under control and we are certainly not even vaguely there now. If we don't we will, eventually, have a debt to large that our interest payments alone will be greater that we can possibly sustain. When that happens we will default. If we do default the American dollar will be worthless and we will be in serious trouble.

My problem is that the Dems are promising everything. Bernie, for instance, wants to spend something like 30 trillion dollars (that we do not have) and that's just for just his healthcare thing. Warren isn't too far back from Bernie. Basically, if the Dems do win, they are not going to be able to do much more than try to control the debt. It will be interesting times.

If the Republicans win I can't even imagine the mess we will be in and how bad it can get under the most spendthrift group of politicians in the history of the nation. So much for the myth of Republican fiscal conservatism, that one is just gone.

It would, in other words, be very nice if both parties stopped the baloney and started to address our financial woes. The Republicans, I suspect, don't dare. The Dems, however, can and certainly should.
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 10/29/19 02:45 AM

Quote:
Basically, if the Dems do win, they are not going to be able to do much more than try to control the debt.


Eliminate the Trump Tax Cuts and you'll go a long way towards controlling the debt.
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 11/03/19 07:49 PM

That would only take care of 1 trillion dollars of debt. The Republicans are working, very hard, to make sure they add a trillion for every year they hold office.

Its really time that the Dems start to talk about their long history of fixing Republican debt as well as their own fiscal responsibility.

Right now the Republicans paint the Dems as irresponsible tax and spend Democrats and that's another one that has stuck because the Dems just can't take the time out of important stuff to point out the simple facts of party fiscal responsibility for one and a complete lack of responsibility in regards to the other.

Just saying.................
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 11/04/19 12:42 AM



Democrats need good messaging and to all be on the same page - but doing so would be like corralling cats. The reason why rightwingers are so good at it is because they like being in lockstep and being told what to do and what to say.

Hmm
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 11/05/19 08:22 PM

I just find it odd. The Dems, in their infinite wisdom, seem to be more interested in purging their own in the interest of purity, go after each other for whatever, etc. The problem is that this kind of behavior is not smart and can lose them 2020. They seem to forget who the enemy actually is. I would love to see one of the candidates, besides Biden, to after Trump and the Republicans instead of each other, with some regularity. I suspect they do more of that when actually speaking but, on tv, not so much.

The problem with all of this is that nobody really knows where the Democrats stand on all sorts of things. What they do know is that they are socialists, love to fight with one another, make promises they cannot possibly keep (Warren does this one in Spades, ie free higher education, free baby sitting (lots of 'free' stuff), paid leave when baby comes - both parents, 30 trillion dollar healthcare, etc ), and make absolutely sure that nobody has a clue as to where they really stand.

Actually Warren is, I think, an expert on things economic. One would think that the simple fact she will inherit a Republican national debt of over 23 TRILLION dollars one would think that she might, occasionally, point out the REPUBLICAN National Debt, and what it means (which is not good). For instance, when Dems talk about the debt they should say; "Republican National Debt". When they talk about healthcare they should say "For-Profit Healthcare", etc. The Republicans would not make these kinds of mistakes. The Republicans are wide open to this kind of thing but the Dems, again in their infinite wisdom, just cannot seem to bring themselves to behave in such a bad way.

However, all that being said, between Bernie and Warren they have pretty much turned off the entire middle ground and a lot of that group tends towards Democrats, as long as they are not socialists or giving away the store (which both do). I am not convinced that they can actually beat Trump unless the economy tanks (there are a number of polls that agree). I would feel a lot better about those two if they actually took time out from promising everything to going after Trump and the Republicans.

Then there is Biden. I have listened to him speak. I am not convinced he knows what day it is. There are reports they have him pretty much in a bubble and it shows. Bernie is too old and so is Biden.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/18/20 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Quote:
The Trump administration reported a river of red ink Friday.

The federal deficit for the 2019 budget year surged 26% from 2018 to $984.4 billion — its highest point in seven years. The gap is widely expected to top $1 trillion in the current budget year and likely remain there for the next decade.

The year-over-year widening in the deficit reflected such factors as revenue lost from the 2017 Trump tax cut and a budget deal that added billions in spending for military and domestic programs.


I always find it interesting when revenues go up and they claim that revenues have been lost.

Quote:
Quote:

Weird that conservatives no longer care about the deficit. Or, perhaps they only care when there is a Black American President. coffee

That case seems more likely. Hmm


No, the more likely case is that - like the left - the right has generally descended from ideology into tribalism. The color of a president matters much less than his party.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/18/20 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...The color of a president matters much less than his party.

TBagger depictions of Obama in African witch doctor garb tells us what's really the truth. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/18/20 03:39 PM



Total cost of the 2017 Republican tax cuts for corporations and billionaires: $1.9 trillion

America has socialism for the rich, harsh capitalism for everyone else. Hmm
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/18/20 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I always find it interesting when revenues go up and they claim that revenues have been lost.

Are you saying that the tax reduction was not lost revenue?
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 03:48 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...The color of a president matters much less than his party.

TBagger depictions of Obama in African witch doctor garb tells us what's really the truth. smile


There is probably somewhere a conservative who finds nut-picking a convincing argument, but, I assure you, that conservative is not me.

Republicans were fired-up behind cutting the government when Carter was President and ran the Reagan Revolution to do so.... and then Reagan got in, and increased government spending instead, and Republicans loved him. Republicans were fired up behind cutting the government when Clinton was President, and had the Contract with America and everything... and then, W Bush became President, and increased spending, and Republicans generally liked him. Republicans were fired up behind cutting the government when Obama was President, and had the Tea Party and then... well, then Trump became President, and dramatically increased spending, and some Republicans loved him, some loathed him, and many started off loathing him and came to like him because he was Their Guy.

It's not the Race, it's the Tribe. Republicans have significant overlap with Conservatives and are willing to get on board with cutting government..... but not at the expense of political capital or betrayal of the Tribe.

It's additionally worth noting, since we are here, that the "Everything Is Racism" tendency on the left makes - no doubt - for a comforting attack (after all, it definitely means that those icky Others are the Baddies, making us the Good Guys. Darn Icky Others), but it also destroys the value of the charge. Donald Trump was immune to charges of racism and fascism (both true to different degrees) within the GOP primary mostly because the Left had cried wolf on that for decades, and so the accusation was instead interpreted as "They Are Afraid Of Him". Conservatives, by and large, have pulled off a similar trick with "Socialism".

So,.... if you like Trump, keep doing what got you Trump. If you don't like Trump, maybe think about changing things up a bit wink





Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I always find it interesting when revenues go up and they claim that revenues have been lost.

Are you saying that the tax reduction was not lost revenue?


(shrug) the Pro-Growth impacts of a predictable regulatory regime and reduced tax burdens are real. Revenues have gone up.

Unfortunately, spending has gone up significantly faster. We don't have a Revenue problem in this country; we have a Spending problem.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Are you saying that the tax reduction was not lost revenue?

(shrug) the Pro-Growth impacts of a predictable regulatory regime and reduced tax burdens are real. Revenues have gone up.

The simple fact that revenues would have been higher without the tax cuts is real.

Do you think that it would have had an impact on the deficit if the tax cuts had not been enacted?

Do you believe that growth resulting from more debt is a good thing? Is it even really growth?
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 06:15 PM

The Republican party is no longer the Party of the Conservatives (but not all!) The Impeachment 'Trial' may actually point this one out if the Dems can get the goods (wishful thinking - something I am REALLY good at!).
The truth is that revenues are up. Revenues have been bolstered, by a LOT, by tariffs, attacks on Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare. Its interesting. We are now experiencing the longest economic growth in history. Some of it may well be supported by changes in regulations, anyway, its a fact.

Its also a fact that most other economies are not doing all that well and seem to be getting worse and worse. There are also signs that we may also experiencing a bubble. The simple fact is that what goes up also goes down. That is a truism that is absolutely correct. We now have, we are told, the lowest unemployment figures in the history of the nation. That may be right or wrong but the figures are GOOD!

All that being said there is another truism here and that is that "voters vote their wallets". That too is right on, they do! Now for another fact. The Democrats have NEVER beaten the Republicans when there is a really good economy and we have one right now. I know, I understand about living wages, 3 jobs, etc. The problem, from a Democratic standpoint is that they still vote their wallets AND the simple fact that they can actually get 3 jobs! Wallets are all the same, thin or thick - that too is a simple fact.

Several months ago I wrote something about the Dems using the term "Socialist" and got ripped for it. Now its coming home to roost and The Dems own it and its going to seriously cost them. I don't think there is any doubt about that. There have been a lot of talk about "Democratic" Socialism and how its different and the big result of all that is - ZIP! Socialism has been a cause for a very long time. I am not sure but I suspect that its failed everytime its been actually tried. Hitler, for instance, was a "National Socialist Workers Party" (didn't work well). Words have power.

Oh, the latest figures also note that those who are college educated support Dems and them that are not support Trump. This is not unusual for a populist who can play with truth/lies well and is a historic fact. Its just the way it is. When you got a problem with a populist you have to face it right on. The Dems, to may way of thinking, haven't really done that and they will pay that price too. They can still win if they can get out the vote, especially the vote of the independents, and they are so busy talking to each other that they seem to be forgetting that little truth.

I should also mention that I tried getting rich on Predictit (gambling on politics) and lost my shirt so all of my blather ...........
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 09:09 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Are you saying that the tax reduction was not lost revenue?

(shrug) the Pro-Growth impacts of a predictable regulatory regime and reduced tax burdens are real. Revenues have gone up.

The simple fact that revenues would have been higher without the tax cuts is real.


Respectfully, that is not a fact. That is an assessment which depends upon assumptions, some of which may - or may not - be valid. An example of a fact would be the fact that Revenues went up, even as the Deficit did.
This demonstrates that the Deficit is far and away primarily driven by spending, and, I would point out, that increase in spending relative to GDP (and, thus – see below – our revenues) is driven primarily by the Entitlements:

[img]https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/16fivethirtyeight-gov7-blog4801.jpg?w=575[/img]

So, again, to my original point – we don’t have a revenue problem in this country. We have a spending problem.


Originally Posted By: logtroll
Do you think that it would have had an impact on the deficit if the tax cuts had not been enacted?

This gets complicated quickly.

1. I think that the primary driver of Revenues is not tax rates, but, rather, growth. If you chart revenues relative to tax rates, you see that rates can change wildly without producing a comparable change in revenues. If you chart it compared with growth, however, you see more consistency. Hauser's Law is a pithy depiction of this:

[img:left]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-_VUStpyvgg8%2FXD3gBqYj8DI%2FAAAAAAAAR2Y%2Fmbp5vvD61l0Xr1-3UxRKnPeH_q86SsBtwCLcBGAs%2Fs1600%2Fhausers-law-in-action-1946-2018.png&f=1&nofb=1[/img]


Now, if you pay close attention to that chart, you will note that the average for the second half is slightly higher than the average for the first:

[img:left]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fflamingdumbass.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F12%2Fincome-tax-revenue1.png&f=1&nofb=1[/img]



That is because, when we reduced top marginal rates from maximum punishment (you could say, when we shifted from the right side of the Laffer Curve to the left side), we incentivized production relative to tax-avoidance strategies. We not only collected more revenue due to higher growth, we actually collected more revenue as a portion of GDP, meaning that more of that growth was being captured by federal revenues than in previous decades.


TL/DR: Incentives Work. Higher Tax Rates MUCH Less So.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 09:14 PM

Alright, anyone know how to make the images work? I'm screwing this all up :p
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 09:22 PM

anywho...

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Do you think that it would have had an impact on the deficit if the tax cuts had not been enacted?

…ctd:
2. This suggests that the impact of – most - changes to marginal tax rates on revenues is primarily a result not of direct taxing behavior, but, rather, an indirect result stemming from those changes’ impact on Growth. This means that the structure of changes in tax rates matters very much, since what you are trying to incentivize is production. A temporary tax rebate that lowers effective tax rates for a single year doesn’t change incentives, and doesn’t change long term behavior. George W. tried this to little-or-no effect in 2001 and again in 2008. Long-term rate changes, in contrast, do change incentive structures, and therefore can change long-term behaviors.

Different levels and kinds of taxes also demonstrate different levels of elasticity (responsiveness to changes). Changes in payroll taxes, for example, produce relatively less changes to the incentive to work (because they impact especially those who have little choice), whereas changes in capital gains or top marginal income rates produce relatively greater changes to incentives (because those activities are more easily shifted in response).

What this means for scoring tax rate changes is that tax policy can’t be scored in a vacuum if it is to be scored accurately (and this is the part that sucks because it makes actually scoring the dang thing an absolute nightmare of complicated and even complex interactions). Tax Rates have to share their impact with Regulatory Policy and exogenous factors.

An extreme example which shows the rule: The Kardashian Administration of 2036 decided to cut all taxes to a 20% flat rate of monies earned over 200% FPL (hooray!), got Congress to re-take regulatory law issuance (hooray!) and started automatically sunsetting aging regulatory structures unless Congress was willing to re-issue them under its own authority (hooray!). Growth is gonna do great!.

Unfortunately, Clone-Putin who had replaced Previous Putin 1.0 in Russia turned out to have some unrecognized brain damage, and he nuked the eastern seaboard. Net Impact of Government Actions on Revenues: +5, Net Impact of Exogenous Factors: -5,000,000.

A more relevant recent example of Exogenous impacts could include the development of the American Shale-Oil industry (major boon) in response to rising gas prices back in 2009-2010 (major not-so-boon). Tax Policy didn’t drive growth in that sector of the economy and any resulting revenues except to the degree that it either discouraged it or failed to discourage it.

Reductions to long-range tax rates such as the ones that the Trump Administration put into law, therefore, are:

A) not going to be the primary driver of changes to revenues unless they are the primary driver of changes in growth rates, which can happen.
B) Positive, but can be mitigated by other federal policies (such as, for example, a poorly-thought-out trade war), while also being:
C) Boosted by other federal policies (such as, for example, a predictable regulatory regime, (which, if I may respectfully point out, plays a major role in growth that the left does not like to discuss, because doing so would force them to deal with the point that their preferred policy roles for the government can have unintended negative consequences)), and also while being:
D) Impacted by exogenous factors (such as, for example, international growth slowing, driving capital to the United States markets).


TL/DR: This crap is really complex, which is why even the math and policy geniuses at the CBO are so often off.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Do you believe that growth resulting from more debt is a good thing? Is it even really growth?

I think our national debt is the single greatest national security and national governance risk that we face today. It is the largest, most obvious, slow-moving crises in history, and we as a nation seem determined to do nothing about it until it is too late, and all of our choices are horrific. See: Sig.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/19/20 09:37 PM

Sorry to spam the thread - but it was a good question, and I wanted to try to give it a good answer.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
This crap is really complex, which is why even the math and policy geniuses at the CBO are so often off.

Occam's razor.

I think you are trying way too hard to make a bunch of complicated theories work to support a desired condition - low taxes and less regulation.

Here is one fact that is very annoying - why all the economic stimulus manipulations during a time of a booming economy? Tax cuts (strongly favoring them folks with money) and low interest rates being the most obvious? Why aren't they working to reduce the deficit? Isn't it natural to pay off debts when you are flush with cash?

It is a fact that the artificial stimuli did not add anything to the booming economy, but not taking revenue DID NOT do anything to boost revenues. I think jgw may have pegged that one - tariffs. Tariffs have brought in approximately as much revenue as the tax cuts threw away, but they have only harmed businesses (mine is one of them - thousands of dollars thrown away, for no benefit).

Then there is this little piece of evidence about high taxes and the economy - note the general correlation between high rates and prosperous times (and low national debt).



We have morphed into a debt-based economy - that is the problem. And you can't just blame spending. Some spending is a good investment with a long term positive ROI... some spending is really pointless and destructive. I don't see our spenders taking that into account, mostly because the spending is controlled by them that has most of the money, and they are shortsighted and greedy.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 12:53 AM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
This crap is really complex, which is why even the math and policy geniuses at the CBO are so often off.

Occam's razor.

I think you are trying way too hard to make a bunch of complicated theories work to support a desired condition - low taxes and less regulation.


Hm. Well, full-disclosure, my own preferred tax scheme (which I've worked on somewhat elsewhere) involves raising payroll taxes on high income earners (as part of reforming Social Security), but transforming income taxes into a rate of 25% of all income earned over 200% of the Federal Poverty Line for the Household (or individual) filing. In that manner, the effective rate would be perfectly progressive, as each additional dollar earned over that 200% of FPL would slightly increase the effective tax rate of the person paying. I paired this with a Negative Income Tax of 50% of all monies not earned below 200% of FPL, which I argued, should replace the current, damaging, transfer payments structure in this country.

However, to simply say "Pshaw! This stuff isn't complicated!" is.... well, it appeals to populists because populists like Clearly Defined Bad Guys and Promises Of Easy Answers.... but it's not a good policy answer, because - yeah - this stuff is complicated, and the problem is complex. A lot more goes into determining tax revenue than tax rates, and tax rates in our current environment don't even appear to be the main driver.

Quote:
Here is one fact that is very annoying - why all the economic stimulus manipulations during a time of a booming economy?


Because politicians only care about getting reelected, and the electorate is stupid enough to care only about the short term.

Quote:
Tax cuts (strongly favoring them folks with money) and low interest rates being the most obvious? Why aren't they working to reduce the deficit?


Because that would require that politicians make responsible decisions even if it costs them political support, and we out here in the voting public are swift to punish any politician foolish enough to do a thing like that.

Quote:
Isn't it natural to pay off debts when you are flush with cash?


It is the wise decision. I'm not sure it's the natural one.

Quote:
It is a fact that the artificial stimuli did not add anything to the booming economy, but not taking revenue DID NOT do anything to boost revenues. I think jgw may have pegged that one - tariffs. Tariffs have brought in approximately as much revenue as the tax cuts threw away, but they have only harmed businesses (mine is one of them - thousands of dollars thrown away, for no benefit).


As the wag once said: Trade wars are wars politicians wage against their own people.

Quote:
Then there is this little piece of evidence about high taxes and the economy - note the general correlation between high rates and prosperous times (and low national debt).



We are currently in the most prosperous time in the history of the Human Species... so....

Quote:
We have morphed into a debt-based economy - that is the problem.


I wholeheartedly agree with this, and, in fact, spend my free time teaching adults how to get out of consumer/college debt, and students how to never get into it in the first place.

Quote:
And you can't just blame spending.


As I said above, it's far and away the primary driver of the deficit. That doesn't make it the only factor at play, I agree - simply far and away the biggest, and the one that most needs solving.


Quote:
Some spending is a good investment with a long term positive ROI...


Wise infrastructure investments and an effective judicial system for enforcing law and contracts are the most common expressions of this.

Quote:
some spending is really pointless and destructive. I don't see our spenders taking that into account, mostly because the spending is controlled by them that has most of the money, and they are shortsighted and greedy.


...Eh, our public spending is controlled by our politicians, who can be influenced by others - including wealthy interests - but whose primary purpose is reelection. If every billionaire in this country told the Democratic Party they needed to get on board with privatizing Social Security, they would still be ignored, because the Democratic Party isn't about to commit deliberate political suicide.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 02:34 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...The color of a president matters much less than his party.

TBagger depictions of Obama in African witch doctor garb tells us what's really the truth. smile

There is probably somewhere a conservative who finds nut-picking a convincing argument, but, I assure you, that conservative is not me.

Republicans were fired-up behind cutting the government when Carter was President and ran the Reagan Revolution to do so.... and then Reagan got in, and increased government spending instead, and Republicans loved him. Republicans were fired up behind cutting the government when Clinton was President, and had the Contract with America and everything... and then, W Bush became President, and increased spending, and Republicans generally liked him. Republicans were fired up behind cutting the government when Obama was President, and had the Tea Party and then...

As everyone knows, traditional Republicans and TBaggers aka modern Conservatives, are two different political animals. My comment was specific to TBaggers - the modern Conservative.

To conflate the two is being intellectually dishonest.

For the TBaggers, Obama's skin color was the quintessential objection to his presidency, along with Obama being an alleged Kenyan Marxist. And now with an old white racist Boomer in the WH again, TBaggers are comfortable with higher deficits and the direction this country is heading in.

Hmm
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 02:35 AM

What does prosperous mean to you?
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 03:31 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...The color of a president matters much less than his party.

TBagger depictions of Obama in African witch doctor garb tells us what's really the truth. smile

There is probably somewhere a conservative who finds nut-picking a convincing argument, but, I assure you, that conservative is not me.

Republicans were fired-up behind cutting the government when Carter was President and ran the Reagan Revolution to do so.... and then Reagan got in, and increased government spending instead, and Republicans loved him. Republicans were fired up behind cutting the government when Clinton was President, and had the Contract with America and everything... and then, W Bush became President, and increased spending, and Republicans generally liked him. Republicans were fired up behind cutting the government when Obama was President, and had the Tea Party and then...

As everyone knows, traditional Republicans and TBaggers aka modern Conservatives, are two different political animals. My comment was specific to TBaggers - the modern Conservative.

To conflate the two is being intellectually dishonest.

For the TBaggers, Obama's skin color was the quintessential objection to his presidency, along with Obama being an alleged Kenyan Marxist. And now with an old white racist Boomer in the WH again, TBaggers are comfortable with higher deficits and the direction this country is heading in.

Hmm


:shrug: you are projecting opposition to your motivations to those who oppose your means in order to smear them.

1. It's about as effective and meaningful as the people chanting Jews Will Not Replace Us, convinced that the Democrat party is part of a giant movement to get rid of white people.

2. It immunizes actual racists to the charge of racism by making the accusation first into a joke and then into a badge of honor - not because it is believed, but because it is understood to be the leftist version of "this person is an effective conservative and so we must call him a racist".

The tendency from the left to loudly proclaim that any opposition to their political platform was racism is not a small part of how you got Trump. When an actual racist came along, the charge only helped him, because of how it had been abused.*


So, if you like Trump, well, keep doing what got you Trump. If you don't like Trump, maybe reconsider your preference for looking down on the Other. smile It is, after all, a form of bigotry, and it harms your ability to come to rational conclusions flowing from intellectual empathy. People are capable of disagreeing - even strongly! - from good intentions wink.




*Worth noting - Republicans have done pretty much the same thing with "Socialism".
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
What does prosperous mean to you?


I'll admit to having defined it here in economic terms. If you were to ask me what a Prosperous Life looked like, I would probably also talk about family, community, a feeling of earned achievement, and the belief that one has made a difference in the lives of others.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
[quote=logtroll][quote=CPWILL]This crap is
We are currently in the most prosperous time in the history of the Human Species... so....


For some.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
What does prosperous mean to you?

I'll admit to having defined it here in economic terms. If you were to ask me what a Prosperous Life looked like, I would probably also talk about family, community, a feeling of earned achievement, and the belief that one has made a difference in the lives of others.

I would add that prosperity assessment needs to include externalized costs (think climate change), security (healthcare and economic), sustainability (stewardship of resources), etc. And the very idea that economic prosperity can include maxxing out multiple credit cards and other sorts of indulgent debt to live prosperously is highly suspect.

I think an objective and thoughtful assessment of historically comparative "prosperity" would be difficult, but would show that we certainly have the most profligate society ever, but not the most prosperous.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
What does prosperous mean to you?

I'll admit to having defined it here in economic terms. If you were to ask me what a Prosperous Life looked like, I would probably also talk about family, community, a feeling of earned achievement, and the belief that one has made a difference in the lives of others.

I would add that prosperity assessment needs to include externalized costs (think climate change), security (healthcare and economic), sustainability (stewardship of resources), etc. And the very idea that economic prosperity can include maxxing out multiple credit cards and other sorts of indulgent debt to live prosperously is highly suspect.

I think an objective and thoughtful assessment of historically comparative "prosperity" would be difficult, but would show that we certainly have the most profligate society ever, but not the most prosperous.


Hm. I don't know if I would accept security as that strong a measure - slaves have security in that tomorrow they will probably be equally wealthy as they are today, that doesn't increase their prosperity.

Externalized costs I agree can be brought in, but only to the extent that they are impacting the individual now. In China, for example, I could see the environmental damage in cities as an actual detriment to human prosperity, as it lowers life spans. Scare threats about how In A Decade The Planet Will OMG Literally Die And Explode don't reduce actual prosperity, they just increase anxiety among those who really buy into them.

As for debt - again, I agree it's a huge problem. That doesn't mean that our standard of living isn't higher than any other point in human history. We are more prosperous now than at any other time in our species :shrug:

What era would you say the human species was better off in?
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 04:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
[quote=logtroll][quote=CPWILL]This crap is
We are currently in the most prosperous time in the history of the Human Species... so....


For some.


Literally billions of them.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
What era would you say the human species was better off in?

None.

Humans individually often have more good than bad in us, but as a species we have always been mindlessly destructive - now more than ever.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
What era would you say the human species was better off in?

None.

Humans individually often have more good than bad in us, but as a species we have always been mindlessly destructive - now more than ever.


If I may offer some fascinating reading....



...The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined is a 2011 book by Steven Pinker, in which the author argues that violence in the world has declined both in the long run and in the short run and suggests explanations as to why this has occurred. The book uses data simply documenting declining violence across time and geography. This paints a picture of massive declines in violence of all forms, from war, to improved treatment of children. He highlights the role of nation-state monopolies on force, of commerce (making "other people become more valuable alive than dead"), of increased literacy and communication (promoting empathy), as well as a rise in a rational problem-solving orientation as possible causes of this decline in violence. He notes that, paradoxically, our impression of violence has not tracked this decline, perhaps because of increased communication, and that further decline is not inevitable...
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 05:30 PM

Interesting... I wasn't even thinking about violence.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Interesting... I wasn't even thinking about violence.


I suppose "Mindlessly Destructive" is what caused me to think of it.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll

Humans individually often have more good than bad in us, but as a species we have always been mindlessly destructive - now more than ever.


Humans are good at being destructive mostly because we're a cooperative species, which to our wiring is "good".

Nobody built the bomb. WE built the bomb.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 07:40 PM

Economic growth... what are the limits - when does it become cancerous?
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 09:12 PM

It ends when the payment of the debt becomes so huge that the only thing that can be done is to either declare bankruptcy or kill EVERYBODY. At the risk of repeat - we are very close to actually spending more on paying down the debt than on our military or medicare.

Amongst other things this also means that virtually ALL campaign promises are lies and cannot be done. If the Dems do win they will, yet again, be tasked with trying to bail the nation out of yet another Republican financial disaster whilst not blaming them at all and actually allowing them (the Republicans) to claim that they are the party of fiscal responsibility. The horror is that everybody, including the Dems seem to actually believe that one.

If the Dems actually do try to fix it that will mean that they will be forced to raise taxes and that means the Dems will, yet again, get painted as the tax and spend party and they will do absolutely nothing in response to that canard.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/20/20 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
It ends when the payment of the debt becomes so huge that the only thing that can be done is to either declare bankruptcy or kill EVERYBODY.

When the cancer eats the host.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/21/20 01:08 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
[... if you like Trump, well, keep doing what got you Trump. If you don't like Trump, maybe reconsider your preference for looking down on the Other. smile It is, after all, a form of bigotry, and it harms your ability to come to rational conclusions flowing from intellectual empathy. People are capable of disagreeing - even strongly! - from good intentions wink.

Fear of America becoming more brown gave us Trump. I have no problem with the browning of America. smile

Old white Rightwingers see elected Congress women like AOC as changing demographics of this country and are scared to lose their white identity. I do not. I'm comfortable being a white American who embraces the browning of America. smile

Trump’s strategy was basically thinly veiled white nationalism topped off with pie-in-the-sky New Deal economics and homoerotic visions of robust, manly men carrying lunch-buckets to jobs at entirely imaginary shipyards and ironworks.

Trump’s luck at winning the electoral lottery was decided by fewer than 77,000 votes spread across three states, and involved such a wildly improbable set of circumstances which is will not be repeated.

In the three years Trump has been president, Trump only appealed to his base, and has not expanded his base. Given the average age of his supporters, many tens of thousands have died off due to old age or have died due to the high incidence of suicide in rural America since Trump was elected.

Trump is a one-term president. If the Republican Party can't do their job in the next few weeks and remove Trump, the American people will in November 2020.

smile
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/21/20 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
[... if you like Trump, well, keep doing what got you Trump. If you don't like Trump, maybe reconsider your preference for looking down on the Other. smile It is, after all, a form of bigotry, and it harms your ability to come to rational conclusions flowing from intellectual empathy. People are capable of disagreeing - even strongly! - from good intentions wink.

Fear of America becoming more brown gave us Trump. I have no problem with the browning of America. smile


No, that is the fairy tale that people on the left tell themselves so that they can feel morally superior. It has the effect of causing people on the right to utterly dismiss them when they talk about race, and it has the effect of immunizing actual racists such as the current White House occupant to the charge.

Trump didn't get elected Because Yay Racism (though I'm curious as to why you think so many of his voters, being so afraid of brown people, voted for Obama), he got elected because to enough people in the right places, he was less-awful than Hillary. There are a couple of key drivers of that, and one of them is definitely that the charge of racism was laughingly dismissed where it wasn't considered a badge of honor because they saw that the left liked to claim that anything the left didn't like was racist (for example: See, Above), and so the charge of "racism" was instead interpreted to mean "Democrats are afraid of him because he's a conservative".

You are conflating opposition to your means with the antithesis of your ends.

Quote:
Trump is a one-term president. If the Republican Party can't do their job in the next few weeks and remove Trump, the American people will in November 2020.


Maybe they will. Personally, I think his behavior warrants impeachment, but don't think he'll be removed. As for 2020, well, the key question there (as in 2016) will be who the Democrats nominate to oppose him.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/21/20 11:14 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
[... if you like Trump, well, keep doing what got you Trump. If you don't like Trump, maybe reconsider your preference for looking down on the Other. smile It is, after all, a form of bigotry, and it harms your ability to come to rational conclusions flowing from intellectual empathy. People are capable of disagreeing - even strongly! - from good intentions wink.

Fear of America becoming more brown gave us Trump. I have no problem with the browning of America. smile


No, that is the fairy tale that people on the left tell themselves so that they can feel morally superior. It has the effect of causing people on the right to utterly dismiss them when they talk about race, and it has the effect of immunizing actual racists such as the current White House occupant to the charge.


America's original sin was steeped in Conservatism. Conservatives are all about racism and bigotry.

Racism and bigotry are not a Democrat or Republican ideology, but racism and bigotry are both 100% Conservative ideologies.

Conservative Democrats called fought a war to keep slavery legal, Liberal Republicans fought a war to keep black Americans free and independent humans.

Conservative Democrats also wrote Jim Crow laws and started the KKK

In 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was signed, Conservative Dixiecrat Democrats switched to the Republican party to spite Lyndon Johnson. Richard Nixon also recruited the Conservative Democrats under his "Southern Strategy" effort.

Conservatism in the United States is the only common thread to pre-1964 racist and bigoted Conservative Democrats and post-1964 racist and bigoted Republicans.

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
People tend to stick with what they know - and the African American demographic is socially and tempermentally probably one of the more conservative blocs within the Democrat party.

Conservatism and its bigotry are why Prop 8 passed in California in 2008 passed in 2008. The very same Afrian American Democratic base that came-out in overwhelming support of voting for America's first black president, also used their vote to deny California same-sex marriage.

Pete Buttigieg polling with African Americans further illustrate this point that conservative bigotry is alive and well in America in 2020.

Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/21/20 08:16 PM

Taxes - the elephant in the room and always a problem. There are, however, some simple fixes. (I went on to spout what was, I suspect, pure baloney) Then I started a the rant below - Anyway ...........

Some claim that our tax code is over 70,000 pages long! Regardless of how long it is its pretty well agreed that is is so complex that NOBODY understands it all. Its like a religion with a holy book, instead we have a tax code with a holy code. In both instances its mysterious, not understood, and has a priest class of accountants that serve and service the mighty national government. Its also completely insane (another one nobody really argues about). There is not a single person, in the entire nation that doesn't hate the system yet our elected, the ones we hire to run the country, is too busy infighting to take time out to do their damned jobs.

We are getting ready for the 2020 elections, politicians are making their pleas. When was the last time you heard even one of them, on either side, say something like; "I want to create a new system of taxes"? Hmmmmmmm? We are talking about the most hated thing in the entire country yet nobody gives a damn. We have problems, we all know it. The two biggest are endless war and taxes (to my own mind). The war thing is sometimes mentioned and the tax thing is never even mentioned! I started this with a silly stack of blarney. I got rid of them - waste of time.

Once the system gets fixed pass a new law that would ban any changes unless 3/4 of each house voted for it.

I probably should have added infrastructure to the problems. Here is a link for the heck of it.

If you google "infrastructure report card" you will also find a lot of others for states, etc. Seems that the asce hasn't put one out since 2017.
https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/
https://www.asce.org/

Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/21/20 08:51 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw


Some claim that our tax code is over 70,000 pages long! Regardless of how long it is its pretty well agreed that is is so complex that NOBODY understands it all. Its like a religion with a holy book, instead we have a tax code with a holy code. In both instances its mysterious, not understood, and has a priest class of accountants that serve and service the mighty national government. Its also completely insane (another one nobody really argues about). There is not a single person, in the entire nation that doesn't hate the system yet our elected, the ones we hire to run the country, is too busy infighting to take time out to do their damned jobs.



Thing is, it works.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/21/20 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL

No, that is the fairy tale that people on the left tell themselves so that they can feel morally superior.


CP, from what I've seen of you both here and at the other board, you don't have a racist bone in your body.

But that is not even remotely close to saying that the right has no racism problems.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/21/20 09:02 PM

Quote:
No, that is the fairy tale that people on the left tell themselves so that they can feel morally superior.
IMMIGRATION

It was the inspiration for many on the right. Remember ... I am going to build a beautiful wall so tall and so great it will keep out all those uncleans who are rapists etc etc. It is a metaphor, a dog whistle, code for large scale public bigotry. I know I know ... people on the right just don't get it. They "know" they are not bigots, why hell they all have black friends.

I live in a suburban/rural community and am awash with Trump supporters. 100% bigots. It is not a matter of moral superiority or any superiority ... it is just a fact.

Quote:
Trump didn't get elected Because Yay Racism ... he was less-awful than Hillary
First, how can you say Sec Clinton was more awful than the puzzygrabbing, huckster, bigot, and unethical businessman? Sec Clinton was once again cleared of wrongdoing by the DoJ. Mr Trump has been and continues to be under a cloud of criminal investigations, and his voters don't care. That is the primary difference. He is their voice and they don't care if he is corrupt. And he is certainly far more corrupt than Sec Clinton has ever been characterized.

Second and more importantly, Mr Trump's Base, THE BASE, of the Republican party is probably about 75% heavily influenced by their bigotry. They Democrats for several reason, and one of the primary ones is Democrats help blacks. The reason elected Republicans fear Mr Trump is because he is the voice of THE BASE, and that voice is the sound of bigotry. If you are disloyal to Mr Trump you will get the wrath of THE BASE. I am surrounded by his base.

Quote:
There are a couple of key drivers of that, and one of them is definitely that the charge of racism was laughingly dismissed where it wasn't considered a badge of honor because they saw that the left liked to claim that anything the left didn't like was racist
This is a favorite meme of the right. But if you analyze the facts Democrats do not call people who are not racists racists. The problem is the right does not understand what it means to be racist. In their mind, and I will be exaggerating for effect, they believe a person is racist who thinks they should own black people. Thus precluding everything which defines bigotry as bigotry. Hence they are not bigot and Democrats only use the term as verbal assault when not true.

We have a local talk show host who uses the Chicago crime report as a basis for characterizing blacks as predisposed for violence and then claim that is not racist, but tough love. Really!!!! You may see it the same way, but I guarantee you, that is as racist as it sounds. White people are better than blacks because they are not shooting each other ... make sense?
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 01:45 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
America's original sin was steeped in Conservatism. Conservatives are all about racism and bigotry.


See, when you lead off with something as powerfully ignorant as that, it makes it really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

I'm gonna go way out on a limb and suggest you have little to zero study in the intellectual history of conservatism.

If you do the Great Courses, however, there's a neat little remedy to that I can recommend.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 01:58 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
No, that is the fairy tale that people on the left tell themselves so that they can feel morally superior.
IMMIGRATION

It was the inspiration for many on the right. Remember ... I am going to build a beautiful wall so tall and so great it will keep out all those uncleans who are rapists etc etc. It is a metaphor, a dog whistle, code for large scale public bigotry.


I always find it interesting when leftists insist that right wingers are sounding dog whistles, but that the only people who can hear them are leftists.

Wishing to have an actual enforcement of our immigration policy - rule of law - is not "racism".

Quote:
I live in a suburban/rural community and am awash with Trump supporters. 100% bigots.


Since you choose to define "bigot" as "Trump supporter", it's not surprising you arrived at that conclusion. All that does, however, is teach others not to take you seriously when you accuse someone of bigotry.

Quote:
Quote:
Trump didn't get elected Because Yay Racism ... he was less-awful than Hillary
First, how can you say Sec Clinton was more awful than the puzzygrabbing, huckster, bigot, and unethical businessman?


I have a list of reasons why I think she was terrible, many of them policy related, many of them particular to her, her husband, and the unethical cabal they surrounded themselves with. Personally I considered both of them disasters beyond the pale, and voted for the former CIA guy out in Utah.

Quote:
Sec Clinton was once again cleared of wrongdoing by the DoJ. Mr Trump has been and continues to be under a cloud of criminal investigations, and his voters don't care. That is the primary difference. He is their voice and they don't care if he is corrupt.


Indeed. Just as many of Bill Clinton's supporters didn't care about his abuses, nor Hillary's about hers. Tribalism is a helluva drug.

Quote:
Second and more importantly, Mr Trump's Base, THE BASE, of the Republican party is probably about 75% heavily influenced by their bigotry.


Impressive. Every claim in that statement is false.

1. Trump's won the 2016 GOP primary with a distinct plurality. The majority of the GOP base voted against him.

2. The base that came out and voted for him was often marginally-at-best connected to the party, and were often democrats.

3. A trend which showed up again when he won the General by pulling in traditional democrat voters in key areas.

Quote:
Quote:
There are a couple of key drivers of that, and one of them is definitely that the charge of racism was laughingly dismissed where it wasn't considered a badge of honor because they saw that the left liked to claim that anything the left didn't like was racist
This is a favorite meme of the right. But if you analyze the facts Democrats do not call people who are not racists racists.


Yeah, I'm just gonna let this hang right here. :p
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
America's original sin was steeped in Conservatism. Conservatives are all about racism and bigotry.


See, when you lead off with something as powerfully ignorant as that, it makes it really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

Ok Boomer...

My history of Conservatism begins with Reagan. What I have seen of Conservatism, what they say, how they act, how they treat others especially the poor, minorities, women, LGBT since I have been cognizant of the world around me, has informed my view of what a Conservative is. Sounds like that reality upsets you.

Hmm

For the recored, my parents voted Republican. Both of my parents were racist, misogynistic, patriarchal, homophobic and xenophobic. I moved out two months BEFORE my 18th birthday - I couldn't wait to escape those people.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 03:45 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and suggest you have little to zero study in the intellectual history of conservatism.

If you do the Great Courses, however, there's a neat little remedy to that I can recommend.

I don't need some archaic dusty old book to tell me what a Conservative is, I can form my own opinion based upon observation. smile
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 02:10 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and suggest you have little to zero study in the intellectual history of conservatism.

If you do the Great Courses, however, there's a neat little remedy to that I can recommend.

I don't need some archaic dusty old book to tell me what a Conservative is, I can form my own opinion based upon observation. smile


Another way of saying that is that the term "conservative" that we grew up with is totally alien to today's GOP.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and suggest you have little to zero study in the intellectual history of conservatism.

If you do the Great Courses, however, there's a neat little remedy to that I can recommend.

I don't need some archaic dusty old book to tell me what a Conservative is, I can form my own opinion based upon observation. smile


Another way of saying that is that the term "conservative" that we grew up with is totally alien to today's GOP.


I look and look and look today but I see little to nothing in today's Republican Party that reminds me of a Barry Goldwater, a Nelson Rockefeller, Bob Dole, or even a John McCain.
Justin Amash was maybe the last vestige of it, and he's out now.
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 06:12 PM

But there are still Republicans who imagine themselves to be a part of this dead ideology. Old fashioned conservatism has long since given way to the new better model. More guns, more god, and less people of color.

Republicanism is not conservatism. Today's Democrats are more conservative than your average Trump voter. Although they use the term loudly and proudly. In a word, they have become radicalized.

If the Republican Party hopes to become conservative again it needs to purge the white supremecists, the nationalists, the Nazis, The KKK, Evangelical Christians, and corrupt elected officials who have turned it into the circus of bigotry that it is today. Republicans have catered to the desires of that crowd until they have simply become that crowd.

But at least we have them all corralled in one place for now.
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 06:23 PM

Actually, it doesn't. When you have companies like Standard Oil and Amazon paying no taxes at all whilst everybody working is having taxes ripped right out of their paychecks kinda shows that. Its kinda like saying that tariffs are not taxes.

I guess what I am really saying is that they do bring income but they are simply not fair. I think that fairness, by government, makes people more favorable to government which is a good thing. Our system of taxes may bring in the bucks but it certainly doesn't have favor with the common citizen that pays them.

I am not for bankrupting the rich. I am, however, in favor of taxing the very rich more than the plain rich and am for taxing those a bit more than those not rich. We have done that for a very long time. Right up until we had the Trump tax cut which increased our national debt by 1+ trillion a year.

That bill, I fear, will be the sin that eventually brought down the United States of America.
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 06:32 PM

Quote:
Ok Boomer...

My history of Conservatism begins with Reagan.


Lucky you! Mine began with Nixon. We share The Bushes.

My history of Liberalism began with Kennedy and saw LBJ and Carter along the way. I was more or less okay with Bubba, it was about then that Republicans totally went off the deep end and became the corrupt body that they are today.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
But there are still Republicans who imagine themselves to be a part of this dead ideology. Old fashioned conservatism has long since given way to the new better model. More guns, more god, and less people of color.

Republicanism is not conservatism. Today's Democrats are more conservative than your average Trump voter. Although they use the term loudly and proudly. In a word, they have become radicalized.

If the Republican Party hopes to become conservative again it needs to purge the white supremecists, the nationalists, the Nazis, The KKK, Evangelical Christians, and corrupt elected officials who have turned it into the circus of bigotry that it is today. Republicans have catered to the desires of that crowd until they have simply become that crowd.

But at least we have them all corralled in one place for now.



If the dems could get rid of Wallace, the GOP can get rid of the freak right wing.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 11:36 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
America's original sin was steeped in Conservatism. Conservatives are all about racism and bigotry.


See, when you lead off with something as powerfully ignorant as that, it makes it really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

Ok Boomer...


smile I'm in my mid 30s. A millennial, technically, according to some measures.

Quote:
My history of Conservatism begins with Reagan.


Then you are way way late to the party. wink Burke, man, start with Burke smile.

Quote:
What I have seen of Conservatism, what they say, how they act, how they treat others especially the poor, minorities, women, LGBT since I have been cognizant of the world around me, has informed my view of what a Conservative is. [b]Sounds like that reality upsets you.[b]


Nope. I've met plenty of people who were ignorant of and hostile to those who weren't like them. It's a common part of the human condition - and increasingly the norm in political debate. :-/

Quote:
For the recored, my parents voted Republican. Both of my parents were racist, misogynistic, patriarchal, homophobic and xenophobic. I moved out two months BEFORE my 18th birthday - I couldn't wait to escape those people.


For the record, this is not a terribly good counter to the suggestion that perhaps you are projecting your personal feelings onto an entire group of people who are your Other.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 11:37 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and suggest you have little to zero study in the intellectual history of conservatism.

If you do the Great Courses, however, there's a neat little remedy to that I can recommend.

I don't need some archaic dusty old book to tell me what a Conservative is, I can form my own opinion based upon observation. smile


The Great Courses are Audio, and they're fantastic. You get the best college lecturers, lecturing on their subjects of expertise (in this case, an intellectual history of conservatism).


Given the human tendency towards confirmation bias and fundamental attribution error, you may find some actual education beneficial wink
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/22/20 11:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and suggest you have little to zero study in the intellectual history of conservatism.

If you do the Great Courses, however, there's a neat little remedy to that I can recommend.

I don't need some archaic dusty old book to tell me what a Conservative is, I can form my own opinion based upon observation. smile


Another way of saying that is that the term "conservative" that we grew up with is totally alien to today's GOP.


Totally? Nah. But it is definitely not as good a fit as it was previously. The GOP has decided that certain portions of Fusionist Conservatism - which sort of defined political conservatism in the U.S. since Buckley founded National Review - are not going to be expressed in this administration. It remains to be seen if (for example) rejection of the free market and a forward leaning defense posture are things the GOP will keep once it's ridded itself of the baleful influence of its current head.
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/23/20 12:10 AM

Quote:
perhaps you are projecting your personal feelings onto an entire group of people who are your Other.

Black people often foolishly project their racism onto white people too. Perhaps gays feel this way about Republians.
Republicans don't hate you, RIck, they hate your sin and are trying to save you from eternal damnation.

I'm pretty sure the right dosages of certain drugs and sufficient torture should do the trick.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/23/20 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
For the record, this is not a terribly good counter to the suggestion that perhaps you are projecting your personal feelings onto an entire group of people who are your Other.

If it walks like a duck, and quack like a duck, it's a duck.

It's not Liberals who were protesting the take-down of Civil War monuments in Charlottesville, it was Conservatives.

Conniving dishonest sociopaths piss on peoples legs, and tell them that it's raining. The only light in your Conservative world, is gaslight. Own who you are. smile
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/23/20 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL


smile I'm in my mid 30s. A millennial, technically, according to some measures.


In 1985, presumably the year of your birth, Republicans and conservatives in general, were considered the CAUTIOUS wing of our electoral body. The Democrats were considered the dreamers and bold explorers.

Now, admit that there is nothing wrong with either position, and maybe even a lot of good in both as well.
Admit that and you can get a fairly decent picture of the notion that it's okay to disagree with and still respect your opposition.
You might want to go into outer space and explore new ways to harness technology for the greater good of mankind.
Your opposition wants to know how it gets paid for, and wants to hem in waste and fraud. Your opposition wants definable goals and provable hypotheses, and they want clearly defined fiscal restraints and a deadline.

Your opposition is the Republican Party, and you can't dispute their call for caution and frugality. They're just keeping you honest.

Today, we are no longer bold dreamers, we are not Americans. We are not even considered to be human beings.

"Democrats are not Americans"

Suffice it to say that, for as long as you have been a politically aware adult, (assuming age fifteen as maybe the start date) all you know of liberals is that they are the Devil, they are not really true Americans, and they might not even be human beings.

Yeah, maybe you may want to reach back a few years before you were born to get some more perspective.
I know, I know: "Okay Boomer!"
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 02:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...In 1985, presumably the year of your birth...

wink

Who's ever met a Conservative who is in their 30's? coffee
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...In 1985, presumably the year of your birth...

wink

Who's ever met a Conservative who is in their 30's? coffee


I have three nephews who are conservatives in their thirties.
Oh, and their wives, too.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 04:12 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...In 1985, presumably the year of your birth...

wink

Who's ever met a Conservative who is in their 30's? coffee

Now you have - lucky you! laugh
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 04:14 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
For the record, this is not a terribly good counter to the suggestion that perhaps you are projecting your personal feelings onto an entire group of people who are your Other.

If it walks like a duck, and quack like a duck, it's a duck.

It's not Liberals who were protesting the take-down of Civil War monuments in Charlottesville, it was Conservatives.

Conniving dishonest sociopaths piss on peoples legs, and tell them that it's raining. The only light in your Conservative world, is gaslight. Own who you are. smile


smile Ask Jeff who I am. He's the one who invited me here. In the meantime, you may benefit from getting to know more people who aren't like you. wink Widen's the perspective wonderfully.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL


smile I'm in my mid 30s. A millennial, technically, according to some measures.


In 1985, presumably the year of your birth, Republicans and conservatives in general, were considered the CAUTIOUS wing of our electoral body. The Democrats were considered the dreamers and bold explorers.

Now, admit that there is nothing wrong with either position, and maybe even a lot of good in both as well.
Admit that and you can get a fairly decent picture of the notion that it's okay to disagree with and still respect your opposition.
You might want to go into outer space and explore new ways to harness technology for the greater good of mankind.
Your opposition wants to know how it gets paid for, and wants to hem in waste and fraud. Your opposition wants definable goals and provable hypotheses, and they want clearly defined fiscal restraints and a deadline.

Your opposition is the Republican Party, and you can't dispute their call for caution and frugality. They're just keeping you honest.


Hm. In 1985 we were in the middle of the Reagan Revolution. I think you are taking the natural Conservative instinct to conduct change wisely and assuming that it is only the drag on the Progressive sail. This would be a categorical error. Conservatism is it's own ideological set of positions, not simply a more cautious version of your own.

Quote:
Today, we are no longer bold dreamers, we are not Americans. We are not even considered to be human beings.

"Democrats are not Americans"


May I say that I enjoy the irony of you posting this in the very thread where another poster has been so insistent on the inherent evil and wickedness of conservatives? smile

Sadly, this is part of modern political life, not particular to one party or the other. More than 40% of Americans think the other side isn't just Wrong, but EVIL. Americans who demonstrate intellectual insularity (who live in bubbles) are the most likely to be proponents of wicked caricatures of the Other, to the point that 20% think the other side "lacks the qualities to be fully human."

It is extremely worrisome. Usually, tribal violence is preceded by a dehumanization campaign. In this case, we are providing that campaign ourselves, and paying our own tribal media to do it to us, for us. The more that we hate and loathe and look down on Americans who don't think the same things we do, the easier it is to justify abuse ("and, really, you know, our side isn't nearly as abusive as those awful Other Siders, anyway") which, in turn, becomes part of their narrative justifying worse abuse (And really, I mean, you have to, you know, after all - those Other Siders only understand one thing), and round and round and round we go.

Elites start to pick up on the fact that they can not only get away with it, but be lauded for it and rewarded by ever more loyal ever more strident political support bases and....

and... well, the short story is, this is pretty much how the Roman Republic self destructed.

Not a happy trend frown

Quote:
Suffice it to say that, for as long as you have been a politically aware adult, (assuming age fifteen as maybe the start date) all you know of liberals is that they are the Devil, they are not really true Americans, and they might not even be human beings.


Actually since I've been politically aware, (and yup, about High School), I've been surrounded by good liberals, bad liberals, good conservatives, bad conservatives. My father is a left leaning fellow, and is probably the best and wisest man I know. An extremely influential pair of teachers who invested in me in High School and who have shaped much of my adult life were conservatives, and were the kind of men who willingly spent hours upon hours helping kids. A college professor who I greatly respected and who wrote me a note once that is framed on my bookshelf was not only a leftist, but an actual political appointee from the Clinton Administration. I've been out serving others with liberals and conservatives alike. I have both liberals and conservatives in my church, though probably more of the latter.

I've also seen members of both sects go ugly. I've seen both fall to bigoted and stupid caricatures of the Other. I've seen both choose to isolate themselves in self-reinforcement bubbles that only push their tribal groupthink to extremes, resulting in opinions like the survey cited above. For every fellow insisting that conservatives are a bunch of stupid racists there is a right-winger out there yelling about the libtards and how much they hate America. Neither is impressive.


Quote:
I know, I know: "Okay Boomer!"


laugh Naturally.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 04:53 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...you may benefit from getting to know more people who aren't like you. wink Widen's the perspective wonderfully.

I hung with Conservatives for the first 18 years of my life. I'm good. smile
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 05:01 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...you may benefit from getting to know more people who aren't like you. wink Widen's the perspective wonderfully.

I hung with Conservatives for the first 18 years of my life. I'm good. smile


Respectfully, looking at the close-minded nature of your judgements regarding the people you Other, I can't concur with that judgement. frown You don't sound "good" at all, but, rather, angry, derisive, bitter, and bigoted.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 05:41 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Respectfully, looking at the close-minded nature of your judgements regarding the people you Other, I can't concur with that judgement. frown You don't sound "good" at all, but, rather, angry, derisive, bitter, and bigoted.

Naw mang, I recognize that Conservative are bad people who are afraid of their own shadows. It's not their fault, they were born that way. Hmm

Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds
Psychology Today

(No wonder Conservatives hate science. coffee )

smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 05:42 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
You don't sound "good" at all, but, rather, angry, derisive, bitter, and bigoted.

Project much? crazy

How's that "Jews will not replace us" working out for you Conservatives? smile
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 01:10 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
You don't sound "good" at all, but, rather, angry, derisive, bitter, and bigoted.

Project much?


Not in this instance, but, then, in this instance, I'm not the one insisting that everyone who thinks differently than me is evil because I don't like my parents.

Quote:
How's that "Jews will not replace us" working out for you Conservatives? smile


Oh, that's adorable. You think anti-semitism is unique to the Right at all? smile
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 01:15 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Respectfully, looking at the close-minded nature of your judgements regarding the people you Other, I can't concur with that judgement. frown You don't sound "good" at all, but, rather, angry, derisive, bitter, and bigoted.

Naw mang, I recognize that Conservative are bad people who are afraid of their own shadows. It's not their fault, they were born that way. Hmm

Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds
Psychology Today

(No wonder Conservatives hate science. coffee )

smile


:lol: reminds me of the old claims that opposition to socialism was a psychological malady, and the "authoritarian mindset" people. Or, for that matter, the Liberalism is a Mental Disorder people. laugh


If you want junk claims that you are wonderful and the Other is icky, well, stick with that. There's a lot of people willing to sell it to you, and lots of people (on both sides) foolish and egocentric enough to want to buy it.

If you want to actually understand people better, I might recommend the work of (liberal atheist) Jonathan Haidt. You might be surprised wink
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
... lots of people (on both sides) foolish and egocentric enough to want to buy it.

Is there really only two sides?
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 02:19 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
... lots of people (on both sides) foolish and egocentric enough to want to buy it.

Is there really only two sides?


You're lucky you get two.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Oh, that's adorable. You think anti-semitism is unique to the Right at all? smile


CP is right about this. The left isn't immune.
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 07:03 PM

Its kinda interesting. Seems that politics MUST be bi-polar - you gotta be left/liberal or right/conservative and there is absolutely no in between. Not only that but one side must NEVER even talk to the other side because its just, I guess, too dangerous.

Sorry about that. Its just that is NOT the way this nation was founded or meant to be. Anybody who thinks that way should lighten up. I know people that Vote Trump and I don't even want to kill them or anything! I think they are probably wrong and it makes no sense but that's just they way they are politically, don' mean that's all they got. Don't know many, but some. One was my son who has, now, changed his mind. Even then I just don't talk politics with him and everything is dandy. All 'conservatives' are not racist, or wife beaters, or all the rest. All Liberals don't want to bankrupt the nation to give said nation away or bankrupt it. These are, I think, simple facts.

All these left/right arguments are kinda silly unless somebody is changing a mind due to them. After a while it must be exhausting. I have a wife in that state right now and its sad (she is a serious lefty, used to work for the Dems, thinks Trump is a monster (close), and majored in political science (that title has always bothered me)

Just saying............
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 11:22 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Its kinda interesting. Seems that politics MUST be bi-polar - you gotta be left/liberal or right/conservative and there is absolutely no in between.


Nope, that's what all those think tank billions paid for, the well heeled and well financed and penetrating narrative that insists that everything is binary.
We are CONDITIONED to think that way because a handful of very powerful people WANT US to think that way, or else.
When they plunk down their billions they expect to get results and if they don't, they start breaking sh!t until they do get them.

Originally Posted By: jgw

Not only that but one side must NEVER even talk to the other side because its just, I guess, too dangerous.


Again, certain people spent BILLIONS of dollars to ensure that people would think that way now. It took a while, but it's hard-baked into the national consciousness now.

Originally Posted By: jgw

Sorry about that. Its just that is NOT the way this nation was founded or meant to be. Anybody who thinks that way should lighten up. I know people that Vote Trump and I don't even want to kill them or anything! I think they are probably wrong and it makes no sense but that's just they way they are politically, don' mean that's all they got. Don't know many, but some. One was my son who has, now, changed his mind. Even then I just don't talk politics with him and everything is dandy. All 'conservatives' are not racist, or wife beaters, or all the rest. All Liberals don't want to bankrupt the nation to give said nation away or bankrupt it. These are, I think, simple facts.

All these left/right arguments are kinda silly unless somebody is changing a mind due to them. After a while it must be exhausting. I have a wife in that state right now and its sad (she is a serious lefty, used to work for the Dems, thinks Trump is a monster (close), and majored in political science (that title has always bothered me)

Just saying............


And when the civil war starts in earnest and the bullets are flying willy nilly, a lot of people will suddenly figure out exactly who it is that really has the "mental disorder".
Hint: (It's not the libs)
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/24/20 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
:lol: reminds me of the old claims that opposition to socialism was a psychological malady, and the "authoritarian mindset" people. Or, for that matter, the Liberalism is a Mental Disorder people. :D)

At least my study was peer-reviewed by scientists. smile

Any idiot with a publisher can write a book. What's the matter, couldn't find a peer-reviewed scientific study to support your lie? Too bad, so sad. coffee

What else are you going to gaslight me with? Hmm Are you going to tell me that NAZIs were socialist as well? That's one of my favorite Conservative lies. laugh

Oh I know! You'll tell me that the Founder Fathers were Conservative. That's my favorite Conservative lie. ROTFMOL
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 04:15 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
:lol: reminds me of the old claims that opposition to socialism was a psychological malady, and the "authoritarian mindset" people. Or, for that matter, the Liberalism is a Mental Disorder people. :D)

At least my study was peer-reviewed by scientists. smile

Any idiot with a publisher can write a book. What's the matter, couldn't find a peer-reviewed scientific study to support your lie? Too bad, so sad. coffee

What else are you going to gaslight me with? Hmm Are you going to tell me that NAZIs were socialist as well? That's one of my favorite Conservative lies. laugh


Actually I linked him to you, though you're welcome to look up Haidt elsewhere. He's even got a Ted Talk.;) I couldn't help but notice you carefully edited him out of the quote box when replying. Odd, that smile

Quote:
Oh I know! You'll tell me that the Founder Fathers were Conservative. That's my favorite Conservative lie. ROTFMOL


:shrug: Not sure why you want to try to pivot from your bigotry onto that topic in particular, but, ff you'd like to have a conversation on it, I can most certainly make the case for most of them (and generally for the movement they led), as did Edmund Burke. Or, if you like, we can discuss national socialism. But, if your behavior thus far is indicative of the intellectual honesty you intend to bring to bear to those discussions, then talking with you probably isn't worth it, as you are unlikely to be able to process information that challenges your preconceived notions.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Actually I linked him to you, though you're welcome to look up Haidt elsewhere. He's even got a Ted Talk.;) I couldn't help but notice you carefully edited him out of the quote box when replying. Odd, that smile.

Only a Conservative would accept opinion in lieu of a scienctic peer-reviewed article. coffee
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 02:22 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
:shrug: Not sure why you want to try to pivot from your bigotry onto that topic in particular...

What does science have to say about your opinion above?

Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice
Hodson, G. & Busseri, M.A. (2012). Bright minds and dark attitudes: Lower cognitive ability predicts greater prejudice through right-wing ideology and low intergroup contact. Psychological Science, 23, 187-195.

You can read the layman's version here.

Science vs your opinion. coffee I'll go with science, thanks. smile


As far as your original question goes - I was simply giving you a list of known Conservative lying talking points that you might to want to bring out. Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...I can most certainly make the case for most of them (and generally for the movement they led)...

I'm not interested in your any of your opinions, just the facts, ma'am. smile I get that Conservatism is not a choice and that you're born that way, but do better and not be so smug. Try harder to overcome that which inflicts you. laugh
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...I can most certainly make the case for most of them (and generally for the movement they led)...

I'm not interested in your any of your opinions, just the facts, ma'am. smile I get that Conservatism is not a choice and that you're born that way, but do better and not be so smug. Try harder to overcome that which inflicts you. laugh


smile Between the two of us, I'm not worried about coming off as smug, or at having failed so badly in the ability to rationally assess the strengths and weaknesses of my own ideological side as well as that of others.

Though it only tangentially relates, I hope one day you are able to get over your anger at your parents. frown Learning to love broken people* is hard, but it can be a worthy thing to do.




*Synonym for "any people"
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Actually I linked him to you, though you're welcome to look up Haidt elsewhere. He's even got a Ted Talk.;) I couldn't help but notice you carefully edited him out of the quote box when replying. Odd, that smile.

Only a Conservative would accept opinion in lieu of a scienctic peer-reviewed article. coffee


So, you didn't bother to look it up (and, I'm betting, you also didn't read the supporting case study). Cool smile

You might find more interesting suggestions of overlap than you thought you would. But, then, you'd have to go back and research to find those, so...
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
:shrug: Not sure why you want to try to pivot from your bigotry onto that topic in particular...

What does science have to say about your opinion above?


:shrug: bigotry is bigotry. You've demonstrated clear bigotry towards the Other that would totally freak you out if someone were to repeat the logic back to you but with the noun changed. Entertainingly, you would probably use such an argument as providing supporting evidence for your own :p
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 05:21 PM

Yeah, Rick, you queers are a bunch of bigots. I can't understand why you hate the political party that has done so much for you and other sodomites. You and Jefferey will both burn in Hell.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 06:01 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...I can most certainly make the case for most of them (and generally for the movement they led)...

I'm not interested in your any of your opinions, just the facts, ma'am. smile I get that Conservatism is not a choice and that you're born that way, but do better and not be so smug. Try harder to overcome that which inflicts you. laugh


smile Between the two of us, I'm not worried about coming off as smug, or at having failed so badly in the ability to rationally assess the strengths and weaknesses of my own ideological side as well as that of others.

Though it only tangentially relates, I hope one day you are able to get over your anger at your parents. frown Learning to love broken people* is hard, but it can be a worthy thing to do.
*Synonym for "any people"

My parents were symptoms of Conservative thought process which I didn't clearly embrace. What rational person would? Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Yeah, Rick, you queers are a bunch of bigots. I can't understand why you hate the political party that has done so much for you and other sodomites. You and Jefferey will both burn in Hell.

It's just like a bigoted Conservative to call marginalized groups like gays and black Americans bigots.

Smug people who do that who are also always from the wrong side of history have some nerve.

smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
:shrug: Not sure why you want to try to pivot from your bigotry onto that topic in particular...

What does science have to say about your opinion above?


:shrug: bigotry is bigotry. You've demonstrated clear bigotry towards the Other that would totally freak you out if someone were to repeat the logic back to you but with the noun changed. Entertainingly, you would probably use such an argument as providing supporting evidence for your own :p

Supportive evidence like scientific peer-reviewed studies vs Conservative opinions. I know which side you choose. smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 06:28 PM

Quote:
It's just like a bigoted Conservative to call marginalized groups like gays and black Americans bigots.


"I'm rubber you're glue..." Funny aint it. Projection.
Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 08:10 PM

I suspect that the civil war begins when Trump is no longer president <sigh>

Oh, I have often wondered what would have happened if Trump decided to remain a Democrat and run under that banner.

My suspicion is that I suspect dark things.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/25/20 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I suspect that the civil war begins when Trump is no longer president <sigh>

Oh, I have often wondered what would have happened if Trump decided to remain a Democrat and run under that banner.

My suspicion is that I suspect dark things.


We HAD such a moment already.
Lyndon LaRouche!

And the lightweight version: Larry Flynt, who ran as a Republican only to piss off the Republicans.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to imagine Trump trying to run as a Dem, I'm saying that it would scare the crap out of so many of them that he'd be dead in the water before the first primaries.
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 12:52 AM

While it's not impossible for a populist scoundrel to gain the Democratic nomination, I don't think it would be someone like Donald Trump. Democrats are not so much enamored with the idea of someone who knows nothing about politics being better qualified for the job than someone who does.

As far as civil war goes, I think it unlikely. Republican law enforcement officers shoot Republican scofflaws practically every day. For every black person shot there are three whites killed. Mostly republicans as they are more likely to be petty criminals.

I'm basing that on the number of lawmakers and party operatives in each party who are charged with and convicted of crimes.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 01:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
While it's not impossible for a populist scoundrel to gain the Democratic nomination, I don't think it would be someone like Donald Trump. Democrats are not so much enamored with the idea of someone who knows nothing about politics being better qualified for the job than someone who does.

As far as civil war goes, I think it unlikely. Republican law enforcement officers shoot Republican scofflaws practically every day. For every black person shot there are three whites killed. Mostly republicans as they are more likely to be petty criminals.

I'm basing that on the number of lawmakers and party operatives in each party who are charged with and convicted of crimes.


Oh they wouldn't have to be "just like" Trump...but they might still be every bit as crooked.
Posted by: perotista

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 01:43 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I suspect that the civil war begins when Trump is no longer president <sigh>

Oh, I have often wondered what would have happened if Trump decided to remain a Democrat and run under that banner.

My suspicion is that I suspect dark things.


Interesting thought since Trump spent 28 years of his adult life being a Democrat over two different time periods. He became a Republican for the third time in 2012 and I was really surprised the Republicans would nominate someone who wasn't a Republican for that long.

I personally don't think Trump would have gotten far as a Democrat. His run in the primaries would have been short. Trump had the right ideology until 2012 to fit right in with the democrats. I just don't think the Democrats would acquiesce as a candidate someone as obnoxious, uncouth and belligerent as Trump. Trump's in your face bullying personality would have quickly eliminated him.

At least I think so unless the democrats were as angry at their own elected official as the Republicans were at theirs in 2016. I just can't see Trump getting very far as a Democrat.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 02:23 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL


Oh, that's adorable. You think anti-semitism is unique to the Right at all? smile


Searching for left wing antisemite groups and forums...

Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 02:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

Searching for left wing antisemite groups and forums...


Bow

There's a reason why American Jews associate themselves with America's progressive left. smile

This may explain why some think that progressives are anti-Semitic. coffee
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 04:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL


Oh, that's adorable. You think anti-semitism is unique to the Right at all? smile


Searching for left wing antisemite groups and forums...




So, are you being serious here, or is this really part of your bubble?
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 02:01 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
So, are you being serious here, or is this really part of your bubble?

Do you know some anti-semitic liberals?
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 03:35 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
So, are you being serious here, or is this really part of your bubble?

Do you know some anti-semitic liberals?


Personally I've only met a couple, but, then, I've only met a couple of anti-semitic right-wingers as well. As a trend, I'm aware of it being as ensconced on the left as it is on the right. The Oldest Hatred didn't get that way by being inflexible.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 03:39 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...I've only met a couple of anti-semitic right-wingers as well. As a trend, I'm aware of it being as ensconced on the left as it is on the right...

That line seems to the current Conservatives talking point. Whenever it's clear the Conservatives are behaving in a negative manner, paint progressives as doing the very same. Meghan McCain on The View does this nearly every show.

It's not very effective and people see though the bullshyte. smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 07:03 PM

I don't understand anti-semitism. Like a fecking babe in the woods on this. They're white. Mostly European. There aren't many of them. I wasn't taught to hate anybody.

Anti-semitism seems to revolve around some notion that the problems of the world are caused by Jews.

Is there anti-semitism on the left? There's a lot of anti-Israeli sentiment but that's largely over the apartheid nature of the government there and the apparent genocide underway. Doesn't have much to do with Jews as such.

The left, as a movement, is one of equality. Sex, skin color, nationality and religion simply aren't a part of it. Equality means equality.

The Democratic Party is not "the left" nor does it represent the values of "the left". Might be a lot of racists and anti-semites and whatnot in the Democratic party. But they aren't leftists.

In theory I can certainly understand a "leftist regime" embracing an anti-Jew attitude if, for one reason or another, the populace and governing body imagines Jews to be an enemy, a threat or simply the "other".

The whole concept seems weird because, near as I can tell, up until Israel was plopped down into the Palestinian's back yard, they haven't historically done a lot of conquering or making enemies of themselves or generally even causing trouble. Their biggest sin seems to be that they aren't Christians...or Muslims. Or whatever the primary religion might be where a few Jews have chosen to live.

I could certainly be considered anti-Christian though. Religious law belongs in church and among the congregation, Christians seek to supplant secular law with Biblical law which simply doesn't jibe with my leftist inclinations.

Posted by: jgw

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 08:51 PM

Lyndon LaRouche! Now there is a blast from the past. I think he is dead now. I always was tempted about his thoughts on Atlantis and his ability to convince college kids to con old ladies out of the bucks.

Thank you............
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/26/20 11:16 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Lyndon LaRouche! Now there is a blast from the past. I think he is dead now. I always was tempted about his thoughts on Atlantis and his ability to convince college kids to con old ladies out of the bucks.

Thank you............

The old creep and basturd died only a year ago...February 12, 2019. smile
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/28/20 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...I've only met a couple of anti-semitic right-wingers as well. As a trend, I'm aware of it being as ensconced on the left as it is on the right...

That line seems to the current Conservatives talking point.


:shrug: Sure. It is also a Left-wing talking point that Trump is a liar. People often find that factual claims make good ones.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/28/20 12:54 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...I've only met a couple of anti-semitic right-wingers as well. As a trend, I'm aware of it being as ensconced on the left as it is on the right...

That line seems to the current Conservatives talking point.

:shrug: Sure. It is also a Left-wing talking point that Trump is a liar. People often find that factual claims make good ones.

Especially when there is ample evidence to support those claims.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/30/20 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Respectfully, that is not a fact. That is an assessment which depends upon assumptions, some of which may - or may not - be valid. An example of a fact would be the fact that Revenues went up, even as the Deficit did.

Respectfully, that is not a fact. Revenues did not increase. They decreased, in spite of the new revenues from tariffs.

Quote:
A common misleading claim this fall has been that tax revenues have increased, even with the large tax cuts enacted last year. While it is technically true that fiscal year (FY) 2018 nominal revenue is higher than FY 2017 nominal revenue, revenue has fallen by more meaningful metrics. It has fallen in nominal dollars when comparing tax year to tax year and has fallen in real dollars and as a share of GDP under any scenario. Focusing specifically on revenues raised under the new tax code, revenue has declined by between 3.5 and 8 percent.

CRFB
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/30/20 01:08 PM

PS - this thread is about the deficit, not anti-semitism. nono

smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/30/20 06:54 PM

Quote:
revenue has declined by between 3.5 and 8 percent.

That simply cannot be true because tax revenue rises every year.

Blame for any increase in the deficit lies entirely with Democrats, they now control the House of Representatives and, constitutionally, the purse strings of government spending. President Trump has promised to eliminate the national debt completely by the end of his next term.

Anyone failing to vote for his positive fiscal agenda will be entirely responsible for his failure to achieve these goals. Spending cuts will begin in earnest next year when he is sworn into office for his second term. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and the Veterans Administration are bloated government programs that need to be cut down to size or eliminated completely. School lunch programs will be eliminated completely as students can brown bag it. K-12 public education will implement tuition fees and the Department of Education will provide loans to parents who can't afford them.
All CHIP and SNAP programs will be eliminated as well and it is hoped that another $12Billion dollar aircraft carrier can be built with the proceeds from this cut. (any funding overuns will be deposited directly with Trump Org. Future corporate tax cuts will increase revenue further! It is hoped that before his third term begins corporate taxes can be eliminated completely and President Trump will be declared President for life to avoid exorbitant spending on future elections. His heirs will be appointed leading positions as the dysfunctional US Congress is replaced with Trump family members and friends, saving Americans the need to vote and the wasted productivity involved therein.

The exploitation of workers will continue until moral improves!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/30/20 09:07 PM

The US economy SLOWED in 2019.

It was "hit by trade wars".
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/30/20 10:28 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Respectfully, that is not a fact. That is an assessment which depends upon assumptions, some of which may - or may not - be valid. An example of a fact would be the fact that Revenues went up, even as the Deficit did.

Respectfully, that is not a fact. Revenues did not increase. They decreased, in spite of the new revenues from tariffs.

Quote:
A common misleading claim this fall has been that tax revenues have increased, even with the large tax cuts enacted last year. While it is technically true that fiscal year (FY) 2018 nominal revenue is higher than FY 2017 nominal revenue, revenue has fallen by more meaningful metrics. It has fallen in nominal dollars when comparing tax year to tax year and has fallen in real dollars and as a share of GDP under any scenario. Focusing specifically on revenues raised under the new tax code, revenue has declined by between 3.5 and 8 percent.

CRFB


Respectfully, it is a fact, which is why even your own source makes the argument "okay, technically, nominally, yes, revenue increased, BUT.....".

Certainly they weren't cut deeply, as is being suggested by those who claim that nominal marginal rate reductions are responsible for large increases in our annual deficit (when the actual driver of that is our increased spending).

Federal Tax Revenue By Year:

FY 2019 $3.44 trillion (estimated)
FY 2018 $3.33 trillion
FY 2017 $3.32 trillion
FY 2016 $3.27 trillion
FY 2015 $3.25 trillion
FY 2014 $3.02 trillion

The Treasury records revenue increasing, the Office of Management and Budget records revenue increasing....

and that is a fact (shrug), though your source wishes to claim that - though technically true - that fact can be interpreted through different lenses to bring out mitigating factors.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years - 01/30/20 10:33 PM

Guess you didn't read the link, the one that accounts for things people like to ignore when it doesn't fit their world view.