College debt

Posted by: Mellowicious

College debt - 08/15/19 06:14 PM

My own feelings are all over the place on this one.

Many students are borrowing so much in student loans that they are saddled with a debt that they'll always be paying, but never pay off. And frankly, they whine about it - perhaps reasonably, perhaps not?

Is this happening because
  • Colleges and universities charge too much
  • Students are making bad decisions about where to go and how much to borrow
  • Students, parents, and employers over-value degrees and institutions?

Students (more accurately, graduates) are screaming for debt relief - should they get it?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Mellowicious
My own feelings are all over the place on this one.

Many students are borrowing so much in student loans that they are saddled with a debt that they'll always be paying, but never pay off. And frankly, they whine about it - perhaps reasonably, perhaps not?

Is this happening because
  • Colleges and universities charge too much
  • Students are making bad decisions about where to go and how much to borrow
  • Students, parents, and employers over-value degrees and institutions?

Students (more accurately, graduates) are screaming for debt relief - should they get it?


Well, right off the bat, I wonder how it was even possible that they were able to redefine student debt as some unique kind of debt that can't be discharged by bankruptcy.
I don't think there is any other kind of debt in that category.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 06:46 PM

Actually, you can include student debt in bankruptcy (don't know if that's the right way to
phrase it) - at least according to Google. But that would only apply to some.

I'm not sure I see bankruptcy a a solution rather than a bitter end.

Posted by: jgw

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 07:03 PM

I believe bankruptcy, as 'fixed' by the Republicans, disallows 2 kinds of debt subject to bankruptcy - 1)owed to banks and 2)owed to government.

Some folks just get wrecked. The current disaster point, I think, is healthcare. The secret may be to never borrow from a bank to pay off your debt!
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 07:30 PM

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/student-loans-bankruptcy/

Just making a point; not sure it's an important one.

Some people do just get wrecked, and healthcare is a good example of that. But we're talking about college loans, which are voluntary, unlike a sudden health crisis.

Please pardon me while I re-learn the tags.
Posted by: BC

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 08:02 PM

To a degree, I think it is akin to pharmaceuticals, the health industry & others.
We take our drugs, do our lab work, have our physicals -IF WE ARE ABLE - to stay healthy & move our lives on to better things. There is little or no excuse to the price we as a country pay for it. It is simple, blatant greed.

Colleges & the college financing industry - loan businesses as a whole, really - are profit centers. No such thing as non-profit, and no reasons for the associated skyrocketing costs. Colleges are, or should be, there primarily to help people better themselves to then better the community around them, the larger nation community around that, and the world community in the end. There’s that idealism.

They also do very legitimate & beneficial research, many in their own specialized subjects. Its cost is “provided” with grants, higher tuition, donors, corporate sponsorship & the like. Does it help educate the students borrowing to pay their tuition? To a degree, as they are allowed to help & learn through the process. Does it help the government providing some grants? In that it might help the nation - likely specific segments or industries - yes. Does it help corporations? Definitely.

All legitimate, but as with a lot of other entities & processes, a whole lot, or few actually, get wealthy in the process and that does not trickle down to the student population...or tuition would actually be getting cheaper or stay stable. My thoughts...

When I worked at a public university I observed a few things. If the state was pressured to pressure its colleges to limit tuition rises (or lose some funding) the schools complied and moved its cost increases to other facets - housing, books, fees for everything.

To the question ‘are we overvaluing degrees & institutions’, i think yes & no. Schools do make students - who have a plan/goal - pay for and take courses they probably to not need to satisfy that plan. Speaking on my own behalf, while I enjoyed most of it, my four year degree meant far less from a professional context than the community college degree in IT I pursued several years later. I think the first degree, meandering through possible degree/life possibilities rounded me out better, it (through a lot of my own fault) gave me few career paths - International & Public PoliSci/Econ/Business combo.
Posted by: BC

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 08:04 PM

Oh...and should they get relief? Mostly, yes. And the opportunity for a targeted education funded by those who are profiting from the universities.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 08:11 PM

"Ability to benefit".
Unlike many I don't think "free college" is a cure.
If it is free to all then one might question if it's worth anything to most.
But there are MILLIONS of bright kids who have everything, the gifts, the grades, the ability and the ambition, and all they lack is the money.

A means test and testing for ability to benefit can give us a clear picture of who needs free tuition the most. Standards don't have to be 100% rigid but 90% is probably perfect. If it is clear that they can make it in college as they made it in high school, give them the tuition if they can't afford it.

We're not "giving away free stuff", we're investing in our own future.
We have to, or the future is guaranteed to be dystopian.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
"Ability to benefit".
Unlike many I don't think "free college" is a cure.

Unlike free high school?

Quote:
If it is free to all then one might question if it's worth anything to most.

Like air? And housing? wink

Ability to benefit would be harder to assign/define than financial need is now!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 09:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Mellowicious
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
"Ability to benefit".
Unlike many I don't think "free college" is a cure.

Unlike free high school?

Quote:
If it is free to all then one might question if it's worth anything to most.

Like air? And housing? wink

Ability to benefit would be harder to assign/define than financial need is now!





Hmmm, I never thought of that, but I sure did take my share of Ability to Benefit tests once upon a time.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 09:44 PM

Don't know where "and housing"came from. I have to admit I've never (knowingly) taken an "ability to benefit" test.
Posted by: Greger

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 10:03 PM

If there is one single thing that America needs going into the future it is a well educated workforce. If there is one thing that Corporate America needs going into the future it is a well educated workforce.

Education lights a fire in the soul of the student. There is no limit to what he or she can accomplish. Debt extinguishes that fire. Put an end to it. Let them spread their wings and soar.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/15/19 11:18 PM

Okay, let e take a shot at this.

As of the effective date, payment on student loans is set at a percentage of income, paid monthly, reviewed annually. Percentage rate is based on the portion of debt incurred at for-profit/private institutions (higher) and public (lower rate) institutions. Payment is made until the loan is paid or the borrower dies. If you ended up with that killer law firm, you pay a percent of your killer salary. If you end up sweeping floors in your favorite art gallery, you'll probably pay less.

Private and for-profit higher ed. institutions set their own tuition rates. Public institutions do not charge for tuition, books, low-end but adequate computers, special-Ned's assistance.and tools for trade education (automotive tools, design tools, culinary knives, etc) although restrictions may be in place for those items which tend to "walk off")

Students are on the hook for food and housing. Colleges will form an alliance with local area landlords to locate reasonable housing for reasonable student.

I'm sure I've missed something important.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: College debt - 08/16/19 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
"Ability to benefit".
Unlike many I don't think "free college" is a cure.
If it is free to all then one might question if it's worth anything to most.
But there are MILLIONS of bright kids who have everything, the gifts, the grades, the ability and the ambition, and all they lack is the money.

A means test and testing for ability to benefit can give us a clear picture of who needs free tuition the most. Standards don't have to be 100% rigid but 90% is probably perfect. If it is clear that they can make it in college as they made it in high school, give them the tuition if they can't afford it.

We're not "giving away free stuff", we're investing in our own future.
We have to, or the future is guaranteed to be dystopian.
I love this formulation. I think there is a benefit to the student and to society that they "have skin in the game" in the form of some costs in the future. Most of the loans I obtained were National Direct Student Loans, or National Guaranteed Student Loans - I don't think those even exist anymore. The benefit, then, was that the loan came directly from the government, which gave the government the opportunity to mitigate expenses under special circumstances. It is that aspect of the process that is most missed now. I am a big believer in "means testing" benefits - as now occurs with Social Security being taxable income. That process, and applying it to student loans, allows conservation of resources instead of giving them to everyone - even those who don't "need" them - and providing greater benefits to those most in need.

Put it this way: If the government has $x million to loan/grant, it should be distributed to do the most good: those in the top 10% get nothing, as they can afford college on their own. Those in the bottom probably get 100% of their tuition covered. Those in the middle get a portion based upon need. That would help ameliorate the wealth disparity in our society.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: College debt - 08/16/19 12:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Mellowicious
...payment on student loans is set at a percentage of income, paid monthly, reviewed annually.

That's one payment option. Or you could pay a normal payment. In my case, the interest is four times principal now as my loan is 9% and it's been that way since the mid-90s because I have chosen to pay based upon the income option for the entire length of the loan.

Even though my loan (25 years, 5 mos) has always been a Federal loan formerly owned by Sally Mae, Navient got ahold of it about 10 years ago, and a recent perusal of the promissory note shows that somehow Deutche Bank now owns the loan but managed by Navient.

Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: College debt - 08/16/19 12:34 PM


My game-plan out of my situation is that after I close escrow on a home in the near future, is to trigger the "25 year rule" and have the loan forgiven.

I will then have to pay tax on the amount forgiven - which is fine by me. I rudimentarily figure the tax liability will be closely equal to the original principal amount - which I haven no problem paying. It's 25 years of 9% interest is what I have a problem with.

Plus, I figure the IRS interest on the loan when I make monthly payments will be less than 9% and I'll be good to go. smile

I just won't be able to deduct the interest on my income tax any longer. Hmm
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/16/19 01:09 PM

Rick, I'm glad it's working well for you. Then again, you do show more common sense and ability to plan than many of those I've read about

That's said in an admiring tone, by the way.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: College debt - 08/16/19 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Mellowicious
Rick, I'm glad it's working well for you.

It hasn't been too bad. As you can see, I've never made a dent in the principal in 25 years. I do get to deduct 100% of the payments on taxes, though. Hmm


Originally Posted By: Mellowicious
That's said in an admiring tone, by the way.

I know. smile

It's good to see you return to RR. Bow
Posted by: itstarted

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 01:42 AM

College debt is the stuff of headlines. Depending on the school, many four year educations are subsidized by school benefactors, making educational choice a matter for some deeper investigation. For those who may be interested, I would refer you to my school details in the website Niche.

Current quoted costs per year are in the vicinity of 65K.... If you go to this link, scroll down to the subsidized costs, provided by a substantial Alumni Fund. Average yearly subsidy $41K

Niche - Bowdoin College.

This has been the case since I was in Bowdoin. Somewhat more as I received 100% tuition/room/board for 4 years. Coming from a relatively poor family, it was a godsend.

All of the Ivy League Schools, have substantial subsidies available. For those who are accepted, in many cases, scholarships, are not based on need, but perceived potential.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 02:44 AM

Originally Posted By: itstarted
College debt is the stuff of headlines. Depending on the school, many four year educations are subsidized by school benefactors, making educational choice a matter for some deeper investigation. For those who may be interested, I would refer you to my school details in the website Niche.

Current quoted costs per year are in the vicinity of 65K.... If you go to this link, scroll down to the subsidized costs, provided by a substantial Alumni Fund. Average yearly subsidy $41K

Niche - Bowdoin College.

This has been the case since I was in Bowdoin. Somewhat more as I received 100% tuition/room/board for 4 years. Coming from a relatively poor family, it was a godsend.

All of the Ivy League Schools, have substantial subsidies available. For those who are accepted, in many cases, scholarships, are not based on need, but perceived potential.


Amazing, and a good many kids would give anything to get out of their old stomping grounds for a chance at a transformed life.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 05:46 AM

The last number I saw for median annual income was $49,000. Costs at your very fine school, after financial aid, are about $25,000. (There are links to student loan programs on the same page.)

Which brings me back to the beginning: does a student with heart (but not wallet) set on
Bowdoin
A) forget about it and go to a more affordable school
B) Borrow the money and hope the Bowdoin name will pay loffogf
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 12:22 PM




When I left college, my loan amount was $29K. I've made income-based payments for 25 years and 5 months. Today the loan amount is $111K.

The amount has increased $275% in that time due to interest of 9% which Congress has never changed in the 25 years and 5 months that I have had the loan.

This is why I will have no problem invoking the 25 year rule.

Hmm

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 02:22 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick

When I left college, my loan amount was $29K. I've made income-based payments for 25 years and 5 months. Today the loan amount is $111K.

The amount has increased $275% that time due to interest of 9% which Congress has never changed in the 25 years and 5 months that I have had the loan.

This is why I will have no problem invoking the 25 year rule.

Hmm



Reminds me of the scene in Rounders when Matt Damon tells Ed Norton that "the juice is still running" on a debt that Ed owes to the local loan shark.
Posted by: Greger

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 04:14 PM

So. From what I see here it isn't the actual student debt that's the problem. It's the interest. A lifetime of payments for a degree that qualifies you to be a lunchroom lady seems maybe a little harsh?

And then for a government loan agency to sell that debt to a private party who in turn sold it to a foriegn bank seems more than a little dicey to me. Similar to the way sub-prime mortgages were chopped up and sold? Probably a simpler answer than that but student loans, which should be viewed as an investment in the future are being used as a source of revenue. This is where our future generals will learn the history of warfare and the political struggles that make it necessary. This is where our future lawyers will learn the basis of our rule of law. Our future architects to build, our future everything is wrapped up in educating EVERYONE. It's far more important than our ability to wage war. In this day and age the very idea of war is preposterous.
But education is a necessity.

I actually consider myself more or less a capitalist. And if you took that Merriam-Webster definition of socialism as Gospel then I most certainly am a capitalist. But this. This right here. Is a f*cking travesty. This is betrayal. Of American youth, of American families, of America's future. It's a lifetime tax on education. Not a tax FOR education but a tax ON it. And like most taxes it weighs most heavily on the working class. Government should be throwing money into education, not trying to glean a Scrooge-like profit from it.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
...A lifetime of payments for a degree that qualifies you to be a lunchroom lady seems maybe a little harsh?

Menu planning and nutrient analysis. smile

Lunch ladies execute the plan. Bow
Posted by: itstarted

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 08:24 PM

This is going to sound snotty... but it's not meant to be.
For the student AND the parent... the college decision should be the number 1 priority, and accordingly, the preparation may well be the most important part of the next four years... monetarily as well as for future well being.

Unfortunately the selection process does not always reach to that level. Too often it is influenced by preconceived notions ... "We can only afford community college", "The guidance counselor suggested 'XYZ' or, "Your cousin Joey went there".

I'd like to cite as example that I know of (My Daughter in Law's work with her three children to work with and select the optimal school, and cost.) For each of the two sons and one daughter, she spent many.. many hours... researching, writing, visiting and seeking out the best combination of aid and future potential. This involved much work on the part of the kids, too.. as now, many schools not only look at grades, SAT scores or records of achievement outside of school... but also require the writing of essays.

In each case, submission of admission requests to as many as seven or eight colleges. I thought "crazy" at the time, but here's what happened. (I should add that all three kids are somewhat above average, so that helped.)

#1. Four year renewable scholarship for the first four years, and now in the second year of post graduate for which he also received a large subsidy.

#2. Received a Stamps scholarship
Stamps for four years... 100% Tuition, room and board, books, and $10,000 for an international trip during the last years of school. (he now has offers for postgraduate scholarships for his doctorate.

#3. Full tuition scholarship @ U of F in Tampa, and now a paid Associate in the Advanced Psychology Program pursuing PG degree.

Along the way dozens of rejections or failure to receive scholarship offers. Never talked about it this way, but I would guess many hundreds of hours in research and prep.

At this point, in today's dollars, I would guess between $700K and $1M... and maybe more.

More discipline than I could muster, but a wonderful payoff, allowing my Son and DIL to retire @ 60, with no debt.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 08:49 PM

Doesn't sound snotty in the least.
If a kid has the grades and the ambition, it is wonderful that some universities and colleges see fit to take a chance on them.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 09:19 PM

I don't think anyone here is questioning the (non-monetary) value of education. The question is, how much debt is reasonable? How and when should it be forgiven?

Should a student take on massive debt in order to attend an Ivy League school? Or should that student realize the family income is only $70K and instead take a good look at a state school?

As a tax payer, with no additional information, I'm less inclined to forgive a debt incurred for buying the luxury education rather than the more practical choice. (Not that I have any say in it.)

Also - public service options to work off that debt?
Posted by: BC

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Mellowicious
I don't think anyone here is questioning the (non-monetary) value of education. The question is, how much debt is reasonable? How and when should it be forgiven?

Should a student take on massive debt in order to attend an Ivy League school? Or should that student realize the family income is only $70K and instead take a good look at a state school?

As a tax payer, with no additional information, I'm less inclined to forgive a debt incurred for buying the luxury education rather than the more practical choice. (Not that I have any say in it.)

Also - public service options to work off that debt?

Likewise inclined. And a PS option, a real one, works for me too.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 11:19 PM

I think we need to go back to the idea that Ivy League schools are for rich kids. Most of this debt is because Middle Class kids are attending Ivies and other expensive private schools. You don't really get a much better education at those schools. Advocates claim that students who attend them have connections into the upper class and the upper class job market, but the sad fact is that there is not that much mixing between the 1% and the Middle Class kids going into whopping debt to attend. For example, poor kids can't afford fraternity or sorority dues.

State Colleges and Universities offer the full range of degrees, normally at a very competitive price. Here in California, you can even attend a community college for your general ed (and an AA degree if you want) and then those with a high GPA can transfer with full credit into the state system to get a BS or BA. This cuts the state tuition expense almost in half. (If you can't get a 3.5 GPA at the community college level, you have no business going to a state college or university.)
Posted by: itstarted

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Mellowicious

Should a student take on massive debt in order to attend an Ivy League school? Or should that student realize the family income is only $70K and instead take a good look at a state school?


With due respect, unless one looks at the possibilities for help, looking at a lower cost school should come after checking out what might be better choices... with substantial scholarships... not always based on need, but inclusive.

I would strongly recommend using Niche, to check out the alternate scholarships/loans and to look to independent scholarship grantors, available by searching, and replying. ie... Stamp Foundation.
There are many dozens of scholarship programs, offered by organizations and businesses...many of which go begging for lack of effort to learn what might be available.

While most scholarships do require a reasonably good record, there are many businesses that will support students interested in their discipline and "Smart" scholarships may be offered for those interested in the military. Smart Scholarships.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/17/19 11:54 PM

It started, no offense, but researching financial aid is pretty much a given. This is not a new problem. My mother had scholarship for full tuition at what I think was a public college. That was great, but her family still didn't have money for books and/or room and board, so she didn't go there.

The point being, wise students will check the programs and quality of schools, then the financial costs and aid, and then decide what they need or can manage as debt. Private schools as a whole are more expensive than public; they may be worth it or may not. Less wise students may not be so careful.

I love the liberal arts, but taking on $60,000 of debt to study art history at an elite college may not be wise.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/18/19 12:25 AM

I'm trying to find some related article bug my wifi is terrible. Here's one:

Good reasons to borrow

I may be underestimating students who take out large loans. I'll keep looking.

Why students take on loans they can't pay

Man, there are loan companies out there THROWING money at students.
Posted by: Greger

Re: College debt - 08/18/19 03:41 PM

No debt is good debt. Some debt is necessary. I believe strongly in universal healthcare. I don't think it should pay for elective cosmetic surgery. Prestigious universities are a fine thing. But they are for the rich and the gifted.

I had a dentist who had a Harvard degree hanging on the wall.

He was one of the rich ones. That paper don't mean diddlysquat if you can't back it up in the workplace.

Pot and coffee, my thoughts are kind of jagged, but the little socialist on my left shoulder is saying something about that Ivy League degree being a firm division between the bougies and the proles.

But yeah, uh..college debt should be pretty much interest free. We should declare a debt jubilee to any and all student loans who have paid the principle+1% or some such. There. Problem solved, now let's get it done.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: College debt - 08/18/19 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
...college debt should be pretty much interest free. We should declare a debt jubilee to any and all student loans who have paid the principle+1% or some such. There. Problem solved, now let's get it done.

Great idea Greger, I'm sure the Republicans and #MoscowMitch will get right on that. coffee
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/18/19 04:19 PM

Here's an interesting article telling students what mistakes to avoid with student loans.
Advice to students

My local NPR is playing an episode of "Planet Money" talking about this issue. Should be available on podcast or on their website. If I can find it I'll come back and add a link.

The current episode is not online yet but they have several items on paying for college, Paying for college
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: College debt - 08/19/19 12:17 AM

Quote:
taking on $60,000 of debt to study art history at an elite college may not be wise.


I think there is a place for Liberal Arts, but mostly that's not a good investment for working families who have to be self-sufficient upon graduation. It's perfectly fine if you have a trust fund paying for everything. Everybody needs some sort of career. Even people with old family money. Most young people have been told all their lives they can be anything they put their mind to. Taking on hundreds of thousands in debt to attend an expensive college seems reasonable to them. I think they need an economics class in high school as a reality check, before they make that momentous a decision. Innumeracy runs rampant in the American population.
Posted by: Greger

Re: College debt - 08/19/19 12:37 AM

Quote:
taking on $60,000 of debt to study art history at an elite college may not be wise.

if you plan to teach art history at an elite college it's the best way to get where you're going...
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/19/19 12:53 AM

Or maybe not. You do realize, I'm sure, how seldom those positions come open?
Posted by: itstarted

Re: College debt - 08/19/19 03:46 PM

Just because I see all of this with my kids... I'd like to note one thing. In almost all of the posts here, the discussion centers on what the potential college student should look for when deciding on the right school, and the best financial decision. While I understand this, and in fact did investigation work myself, today, the debt levels call for much more work.

If you were in position to invest $500K in the stock market, would you let your kid make the decision? Point being, that the parent has a vested interest in what will happen to their children after college. ie. debt level as well as the kind of work they will choose.

I'd refer you back here, to what daughter in law Annie did. How much time she spent, and the results of that effort. It was a matter of working together with a 16 or 17 year old to dig in to a myriad of choices, fraught with confusion, and not always at the top of what lending institutions offer.

So... while we're looking at students, the fact that Annie and Steve were able to safely retire @ age 60, is, I believe, because of how she handled the financing of the childrens' education cost. in addition, in four more years, they will have added four "doctors" to the economy.

How it happened.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/19/19 05:48 PM

Absolutely, It. Unfortunately there are a lot of parents out there who are dumber than a first calf heifer, don’t know how to do any of the research because their children are first-generation college kids, have never lived without debt themselves, or have informally emancipated their kid (“if you need the money, then borrow it, but you’re the one who has to pay it back.”)

Or the college choice has been wisely made bug the only way to complete the financing is to borrow.
Posted by: jgw

Re: College debt - 08/21/19 07:09 PM

I consider college debt problem to be two tiered.
The first problem tier is where students borrowed money to get educated by a for profit outfit that offers, not doesn't actually educate.
The second, is the borrowing itself. We are talking about kids who, obviously, are a clue and don't understand debt or responsibility.

The first is currently supported by the Trump administration. There used to be congressional report listing the bad actors but that has gone up in smoke. These people are well and truly screwed as they signed the contract. The second has to do with borrowing the money. My kids are growed up I don't have to deal with this one but I have grandkids who have borrowed but not much and its was easily dealt with. When they graduated from college they had already completed their first 2 years at the local college (free, whilst attending high school. This is offered in our schools). However, there are also kids that goto college, are not rich, and major in English or History, borrow 100,000.00 to get through and are saddled with a debt they will have to live with for the rest of their lives due, basically, to our current laws dealing with this stuff.

I had a heart specialist who was married to another heart specialist from Canada. She had debt, he didn't because he did public service, in Canada, to take care of the cost. Anyway, this couple decided to go after her debt and saved 100,000.00 as the first payment. She had been in practice for a couple of years. That 100,000.00 didn't even deal with the interest! A couple of years afterwards they both moved to Canada, are both practicing, and she now ignores the debt.

College debt, overall, is a scourge on an entire generation. I have mixed feelings about the second group but not the first who should be able to get their money back. Obama thought so as well but not the Trump administration. The second is a bit different. I wonder, for instance, just how much these kids were schooled about the debt, etc. before they signed or they just figured it was free money and they were going to get rich quick and pay it all back. I think this boils down to a genuine lack of oversight by anybody either lender or parents. I wonder, when these kids left high school did anybody talk to them and explain it to them? Up here the high school no longer bothers with home ec (how to boil and egg), civics, etc. I suspect the subject of borrowing money never even came up.

I incidentally, would support a system that supported higher education in subjects deemed important for society. Grades must be maintained and payback would be by some kind of government service (to be decided) after graduation. I am told that this actually exists for some stuff but I have been told its a kindofa mystery.

Anyway...............
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: College debt - 08/21/19 07:49 PM

The real nightmare and usury is the student has to take out a new loan every semester, they are told they do not have to pay anything back until they graduate. May not be informed the interest will accumulate and compound until they start paying the loan back. So the student upon graduation is saddled with 8 or more separate loans each with a separate interest rate.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: College debt - 08/21/19 08:53 PM

JGW used the phrase “subjects deemed important to society,” that’s a thought that’s been troubling me throughout this thread, including in my own posts. Our society is so monetized - I would hate to see education funded only for the lucrative subjects.

Because we need foresters, and orchestra conductors, Faulkner experts, political science teachers, archeologists, and high school biology teachers.

Shout out to Bernie; the only way I can see out of it is for government schools - from grade to highest degree- to be tuition-free.

In short - deemed important by whom?
Posted by: jgw

Re: College debt - 08/23/19 05:18 PM

I actually agree - we need them all. But borrowing 100,000.00 to be a historian doesn't seem to be a real good idea. I am not really sure what happened. I went to college on the GI Bill and it covered most of my expenses. I also worked and had summer jobs to fill it all in. I don't think that is possible anymore.

Anyway, what happened needs to be fixed not unlike a whole bunch of other stuff - infrastructure, healthcare, (list is long). I have no idea how to get that done.
Posted by: Greger

Re: College debt - 08/23/19 07:20 PM

See...the deal is that a student who wants to become a historian...

SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BORROW $100,000!!!!!!!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: College debt - 08/23/19 08:28 PM

I agree with Julia: Government schools - from Kindergarten to highest degree need to be tuition-free. And they need support for poor students like free text books on line, and free dorms with a meal plan. A student with no assets should be able to become a productive member of society, at whatever level of education they can reach. That is the American Dream, more than anything else. That doesn't mean they need to have 20 year PhD programs for the feeble-minded.

Ivies should be for rich kids. State schools should be merit-based. Eventually, a state school diploma could actually be more impressive than an Ivy, because the student had to actually work hard for it. I think Trump has done more to damage the prestige of Wharton than anything else!
Posted by: itstarted

Re: College debt - 08/23/19 09:53 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Eventually, a state school diploma could actually be more impressive than an Ivy, because the student had to actually work hard for it.

rolleyes

Ouch!
Posted by: jgw

Re: College debt - 08/27/19 06:56 PM

There is an ongoing fact - when money is tight gov tends to start cutting expenses with social stuff. That have blamed, for instance, in 1948 there was a movie called "the Snakepit". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snake_Pit The results were, initially, a reformation of our mental health system. Within 10 years that reformation began with a closing of insane asylums in favor of community mental health. The problem is that few communities took it on and even fewer funded them. Schools too feel the pinch in tight times. Much of this has to do with 'privatization' where everybody gets to pay and them that can't ......... We, basically, take care of roads better than social stuff. Now, however, we now also have 18 year long wars for 3/4 billion a month to pay for and an army upon which we spend more than the next 5 richest countries in the world. Have mental problems? - work it out. Have serious mental problems? - time to goto prison. Have failing schools? Get rich or pray a lot. Want to be a doctor? Cuba for your education. Want to be a pharmacist? Russia has a nice program you can afford. Can't afford to get a phd? China can do it cheaper. There are solutions - they are just not here.

In other worlds it seems that we have moved our attention to stuff that has little to do with the taxpayers and much to do with the very rich and the will of a self serving elected class that has, obviously, forgotten them that brought them to the party. The truly peculiar thing is that them that brought them to the party seems to be happy with this situation - right up to the point when they start blowing up each other in an effort to "change" stuff. I suspect that history has probably documented this a few times before? The current solutions seem to be to talk everything to death and do absolutely nothing about it because, again obviously, its just too much trouble.......