How Many?

Posted by: NW Ponderer

How Many? - 02/21/18 11:09 AM

I grew up in a small town in Kansas - Leawood, population (now) 31,000, although it was much smaller then. From there I moved to Black Jack, Missouri. Population (then), 3,500. Imagine if one day every resident of either of those towns was killed. (Pick any reason you like.) What do you think our country would do about that?

On December 7, 1941, (a date that will love in infamy) 2,403 Americans were killed. We went to war. On September 11, 2001, 2,977 people were killed. We went to war. On February 15, 1898, 266 died. We went to war. August 2, 1964, nobody died, but a Navy Destroyer was attacked and we went to war.

In 2017, 600 people were killed in mass shootings of 13,000 homicides by firearm (and 21,000 suicides). Nothing was done. So far in 2018, 90 mass murderers, no action. Since 2012 (Sandy Hook massacre), more than 1,875 deaths in 1,624 mass shootings. (Citation .) Nothing has been done. In every incident a semi-automatic firearm was used. An average of more than 11,000 Americans die each year from firearm homicides, twice the current population of Black Jack, Missouri. More than 33,000 firearm deaths, more than the population of Leawood, Kansas. More than half of the population of the United States lives in towns smaller than 25,000 souls. Every year the population of one of those towns is wiped off the map by semi-automatic firearms.

What's wrong with this picture?
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: How Many? - 02/21/18 04:10 PM

Everything else aside, the only difference between paragraph 2 and 3; paragraph two was done to us, paragraph three we are doing it to ourselves. Now it should be easy to identify and stop the more insane of the two.

Do not misinterpret my post; I am pro 2nd amendment and I want, have always wanted, strong gun control and restrictions. I do not own any weapons. Like a few here, I understand the purpose of and the reason for weapons. I have used them for their intended purpose and reason. Military grade or based weapons and ammo do not belong in the hands of civilians.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 02/21/18 10:40 PM

The Mental Health System Can’t Stop Mass Shooters The Mental Health System Can’t Stop Mass Shooters - OP ed, NYT.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: How Many? - 02/22/18 01:53 AM

paywall: Only for NYTimes subscribers. Maybe you could excerpt a few fair-use quotes?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 02/22/18 12:40 PM

The mental health system doesn’t identify most of these people because they don’t come in to get care. And even if they do, laws designed to preserve the civil liberties of people with mental illness place limits on what treatments can be imposed against a person’s will.
.... The reason the mental health system fails to prevent mass shootings is that mental illness is rarely the cause of such violence. Even if all potential mass shooters did get psychiatric care, there is no reliable cure for angry young men who harbor violent fantasies. And the laws intended to stop the mentally ill from buying guns are too narrow and easily sidestepped; people like Nikolas Cruz and my patient are unlikely to qualify.

Instead of hoping that imposing mental health treatment on everyone who shows “red flags” will put an end to mass shootings, we should focus on ways to put some distance between these young men and their guns.
Sorry, I forgot to note that. I will, later.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 02/22/18 02:05 PM

Florida lawmakers refuse to debate assault rifles, but say porn is dangerous - CNN. What they failed to realize is that assault weapons are porn. There's a whole category of "gun porn". It's all over the internet. And I'm not talking about naked girls shooting guns (although there's plenty of that, too), but people who fetishise weaponry. Like militia groups.

I spent 30 years of my life training with, and preparing to use, and using assault weapons. There is no legitimate civilian use for them. But people "get off" on handling them and fantasize about them. I do too!

There are those who argue that there is no definition of assault weapons (they lie) "An assault rifle is a selective-fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine"; that they are "cosmetic" differences between ARs and hunting rifles (also a lie) and that they are impossible to regulate (more lies). They even promote fictions like "AR" doesn't mean "assault rifle" (Which, while technically true, belies the "common understanding" in modern usage). But they don't really fool anyone, even themselves.

I understand the allure, and the fantasies. But let's be intellectually honest - you know it when you see it. Assault rifles are sexy. They're metal and plastic Viagra. And they're deadly dangerous, like snuff porn. And when people play out those fantasies, other people die.

Take away the picatinny rail, the pistol grip handle, the box magazine and see how many get sold. It's hard to play out your fantasy with a generic rifle. And those Florida legislators know it. That's why they voted before the kids got there.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: How Many? - 02/23/18 01:21 AM

U suspect the reason we have so many of these is shooter video games. The real problem isn't the pistol grip, etc. It's people fantasizing about them. Imagining themselves as a heroic (but tragic) figure, taking down hundreds of enemies on a suicide mission. They know they are going to die, in all likelihood. Maybe we need to show on national TV and the internet life in prison that school shooters serve, including all the times they are raped, stuck with shivs, etc. and guards just laugh. So these punks know what they are really signing up for.

If you want to go out in a blaze of glory, attack a police station with your AR-15 instead. Call ahead so they can have enough people there.
Posted by: Greger

Re: How Many? - 02/23/18 02:33 AM

They've got video games all over the world. They've got mental illness all over the world. There are young angry men everywhere.
But they don't have these mass shootings.

Whatever could the difference be? Couldn't possibly easy access to military style firearms could it...
Posted by: Greger

Re: How Many? - 02/23/18 02:35 AM

It's people fantasizing about them. Imagining themselves as a heroic (but tragic) figure, taking down hundreds of enemies on a suicide mission.

I think all that fantasizing is what NWP meant by "gun porn".
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: How Many? - 02/23/18 09:20 AM

all that fantasizing

And I think that's what young school shooters do: Fantasize.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: How Many? - 02/23/18 01:15 PM

maybe i am weird or maybe i haven't thought about this enough

i don't see guns as some fantasy. i feel it is a part of something primordial (at least with me) and is included with other activities like throwing rocks, firing nail guns, shooting bb guns, pellet guns, etc and not necessarily at anything in particular ... maybe something humans as animals do ... an extension of one's self? an extension of some added value as more powerful ... do some people have a need for more power?

as an aside do conservative have this fantasy and liberals do not?

if i had a fantasy about any of those i would be fondling one of them ... sorry does nothing for me
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 02/23/18 03:51 PM

It wasn't intentional, but I had the opportunity to see parts of Dana Loesch's and Wayne LaPierre's CPAC speeches yesterday. OMG these people really are off the rails. If you can (stomach it), is try to find them. This is beyond fanaticism, folks. It's derangement. I'm not exaggerating invoking Hitler here. Talk about "danger to themselves or others". Hoo boy!
Posted by: rporter314

Re: How Many? - 02/24/18 01:19 AM

i saw the cnn loesch interview ... lapierre has been a nut case for a while

i am still waiting for lapierre to tell the families of victims the 2nd amendment right of criminals, violent people, irresponsible people, mentally unstable people to own guns is more important than the right to life of their children. i think conservatives like to use the phrase "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" as 3 essential rights of citizens from the DOI and yet the DOI does not mention guns. If life is so important to the Founders, why is the sale of so many guns, which does impact my life, not controlled?

notice Mr Trump sat oblivious to the Australian PM's statement regarding their control of auto and semi auto weapons which essentially ended most of the gun related deaths.

i predict (and it doesn't take a genius for this) nothing will be done
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 02/26/18 07:08 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
i predict (and it doesn't take a genius for this) nothing will be done
SADLY, I concur. This argument is not about causality. It is not about policy. It is not about rationality. It is about fear. Not even rational fear.

The Gun Lobby wants people to fear something that has never happened, and is unlikely to happen. It is not something even being asked for. They have one job, and that is to sell guns. If people are not afraid, they don't buy guns. Statistically, fewer people in America are less afraid, and thus gun sales are to fewer and fewer really afraid Americans.

Rational people are afraid, too. They are afraid of real things that are happening to real people, and they want to do something about it. The proposals are modest: Bump Stocks - should be illegal, but not interpreted that way. Las Vegas demonstrated that in spades. Background checks are not reliable - Sandy Hook and Parkland demonstrated that. Armed officers are not sufficient - every incident has demonstrated that.

What is effective is strict gun regulation. Everyone knows that. Especially the gun lobby. That strikes the fear of god into their puny little hearts.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 03/02/18 12:51 PM

The number of Americans buying guns has fallen dramatically over the last few decades, despite sales spiking over the last decade (when that black fellow was in office). It appears, however, that we've reached a saturation point. Gun manufacturers are in trouble.

Remington has filed for bankruptcy. Smith and Wesson sales are off 40%, and stock prices have tanked (down 50% in a month). Smith & Wesson Gun Sales Are in Free Fall. It's true across the board: Gun stocks slammed as companies and funds distance themselves from industry.

After Dick’s, Only One Major Retailer Is Still Selling Semi-Automatic Assault Rifles.

In 2006, Walmart stopped selling guns at roughly one-third of its stores, citing “diminished customer relevancy.”
Walmart actually stopped selling assault weapons in 2015

The NRA's gravy train is reaching is terminal. Even the gun lobby's main lobbying group, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, is losing steam. Maybe we're turning a corner?
Posted by: Greger

Re: How Many? - 03/02/18 05:25 PM

Maybe we're turning a corner?

Maybe even when government fails to legislate change it can come about naturally.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: How Many? - 03/02/18 08:05 PM

Not sure these stats are good indicators or predictors.

For instance ... NICS checks are up, which suggests either more new guns are sold or more old guns are traded/sold between people. So S&W sales are down, but if you notice gun sales always go down when a Republican is elected (the NRA has sold the paranoid the delusion Pres Obama is still going to get their guns) or H&K or Glock are selling more guns.

If fear is a driving force for the paranoia of conservative gun owners, then I would expect them to continue buying even if they have 20 guns (one for each finger and toe). Consider that 50% of guns owned are owned by just 3% of people. Will that 3% continue to support the gun industry? These folks live in extreme fear the evil empire is after them, so my conclusion is yes.

However we may have reached an inflection point suggested by your stats i.e. the market may be driving the direction of the discussion.

I am a lot hesitant about declaring a victory when only one battle has been fought. I need to see substantive legislation and some good stats for a couple of years before I can check the rear view mirror and say 2018 was the year in which gun sanity came calling on Americans.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 03/02/18 11:19 PM

I agree that it's too early to celebrate, but it is interesting that the market is reflecting public shifts in attitude. The number of gun owners has been declining since the 70s, but not gun sales. The proportion of the population owning guns is about the same as supporters of Trump. I think the market has actually reached the saturation point. Now they're just moving around.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 04/22/18 07:22 PM

"Four people were killed and four others injured when a man naked from the waist down and wielding an assault-style rifle... " But, it's not the gun...
Posted by: jgw

Re: How Many? - 04/22/18 08:14 PM

nratv might amuse (if you haven't watched it before)
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 11/22/18 01:58 PM

'Mama, I'm shot': Girl who wrote essay about gun violence is killed by stray bullet in Milwaukee (CNN) Happy f*kn Thanksgiving. Im just sick of it.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: How Many? - 11/22/18 03:28 PM

I see it as the other side of the same coin NWP. Ambivalence to state sponsored violence abroad shares ambivalence with domestic violence at home.
A society that can put hundreds of thousands of people in the ground abroad can't be expected to have compassion and humanity at home.
But yeah...... A constant unfolding horror.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 01/02/19 11:16 PM

5-year-old accidentally shoots himself in the face in Wendy’s parking lot (WGN)
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: How Many? - 01/02/19 11:24 PM

I guarantee, GUARANTEE, THAT that if the parents are colored, they'll be charged, but if they're White... "Tragic accident".
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: How Many? - 01/03/19 02:15 AM

"Armed when Black" is pretty much a death sentence, even when you have your concealed carry permit. (But "Armed when White" is not so safe, either when you interact with the police.) If I was Black, I would have my license and registration in my hand before the cop even gets out of his car. If I had a concealed carry permit, my weapon would be on the ground 10 feet from my window before he got there.