Organic Socialism

Posted by: logtroll

Organic Socialism - 11/19/19 01:59 PM

Following the recent Gregerian Rants regarding the real meaning of socialism, which make a lot of sense to me...
I came across this article an hour ago. This organic concept of a social system has been in my mind for many years, but I haven't had the wherewithal to describe it coherently. I debated about posting it under NWP's new topic, however it's far more general and metaphorical than the subject of land ownership, so I thought combining them would be too muddlesome.

Quote:
Lately, Iíve been mulling over what I think is a better metaphor for the cooperative movement, or rather, a better metaphor for what I hope to see the cooperative movement become: not an ecosystem, but an organism. Not a collection of disparate entities occupying the same space, each working for its own survival, but rather a single entity with many parts and pieces that play different roles in the functioning and health of the larger whole; a whole which in turn supports each of its constituent parts.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/19/19 07:11 PM

Interesting thought. The problem is that "socialism" refers to not a collective but a nation. its nice to think that people can form a group and act in the interesting of that group. However, we are talking, basically, about over 300 million people which is a bit more, I suspect, than one thinks of a "group", organism, or even cooperative movement. I am not even convinced that its possible to get over 300 million people to actually agree on ANYTHING! I do know, that is simply not possible in the United States.

I read an article on the coming 2020 census. This is going to be a genuine mess of huge proportion. The administration has reduced the money available to the census because Trump thinks it costs too much. Given that this is a man who is bravely adding a trillion dollars a year to the debt one can only wonder. Here is a link: https://www.prb.org/why-are-they-asking-...nsus-questions/

The fact is that the simple fact of trying to figure out who makes up the nation is going to be a genuine problem kinda, I think, should make us all wonder what we are really capable of doing as a society to which we ALL belong!

In other words - social undertakings, which are paid for by society is really a decision made in the name of that society and not the society itself. Police, for instance, are actually a social undertaking for, and by, society itself (in theory but not really). Still, there are, as far as I know, nobody but miscreants who want an end to police departments.

Anyway, just saying.........................
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/19/19 11:27 PM

We are rapidly approaching a time when there are a lot more people than there are good paying jobs. When there are more and more people not earning enough to feed and house themselves. Part of it is automation, part of it is overpopulation, and part of it is corporate greed feeding on the poor like hogs at a trough.

Most of it is corporate greed feeding on the poor like hogs at a trough.

So what are we gonna do about it?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/20/19 02:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger


Most of it is corporate greed feeding on the poor like hogs at a trough.


You're describing socialism, except in this case it is inverted socialism, which of course means it is actually a form of fascism.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/20/19 01:45 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Interesting thought. The problem is that "socialism" refers to not a collective but a nation. its nice to think that people can form a group and act in the interesting of that group. However, we are talking, basically, about over 300 million people which is a bit more, I suspect, than one thinks of a "group", organism, or even cooperative movement. I am not even convinced that its possible to get over 300 million people to actually agree on ANYTHING! I do know, that is simply not possible in the United States.

It's just a metaphor, not a plan. I believe there is something wrong with human mental functions (all of us) and we generally don't recognize it (except in others). Think of all the "normalizing" that is going on these days with ethics and civility being tossed in the ditch. How does that happen so easily? How can Libs and Cons have such opposite takes on reality?

We have a problem and we don't understand it. I was stimulated by the article to think about a model for how humanity should interact, which gives some insight into the problem areas. Because it's metaphorical it can penetrate our consciousnesses in ways that straight logic can't. "Organic Socialism" isn't a solution, it's a different way to think about things and to sort out what is better and what is worse about human behavior.

Another way of seeing it is that through the metaphor of social interaction being an organism we can diagnose the illnesses, which might lead to cures.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2019/....jpg?width=1280
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/20/19 07:27 PM

Quote:
inverted socialism


Is just capitalism. The means of production and distribution are wholly owned and controlled by a few powerful interests while society(the focus of socialism) is left to fend for itself.

So no, inverted socialism isn't a thing.

Managed capitalism is a thing which strongly resembles democratic socialism but avoids the hated word. Democrats have attempted to manage capitalism but have met with terrific resistance from the cporporatists.



Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/20/19 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
inverted socialism


Is just capitalism. The means of production and distribution are wholly owned and controlled by a few powerful interests while society(the focus of socialism) is left to fend for itself.

So no, inverted socialism isn't a thing.


Until it is, we're talking about degrees.
Means of production and distribution being wholly owned and controlled by a few powerful interests while society(the focus of socialism) is left to fend for itself is jolly well okay when society is not deprived of the tools it needs to do just that.

And that is where weapons grade greed TURNS capitalism INTO inverted socialism. Those "few powerful interests" see the beauty of the socialist model and flip it their exclusive benefit at the exclusive expense OF society, to the point where the struggle to fend for themselves becomes a near impossibility for the average working family, the very group socialism is designed to help.

Originally Posted By: Greger

Managed capitalism is a thing which strongly resembles democratic socialism but avoids the hated word. Democrats have attempted to manage capitalism but have met with terrific resistance from the cporporatists.



Of course, the resistance is due to the fact that the corporatists love all the "bailouts" and "tax cuts", which are the very core of inverted socialism.

Again, a matter of degree. It only BECOMES 'inverted socialism' if the dial gets turned too far, otherwise it IS just as you say, ordinary capitalism.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/21/19 12:54 AM

I just read an interesting science fiction novel. Both the Chinese and US economies are falling apart and everybody is converting their savings and investments into a cryptocurrency. As a result all the banks get nationalized. Then an AI gives every person on Earth a million dollars worth of the cryptocurrency. I think this would be the same as getting rid of all money: When everybody has something, it's not "worth" anything.

If everybody received $1000 a month from the government, would everything just get more expensive? Would poor people end up in the same economic position?

Maybe a path to a more equitable society is instead to give every US citizen a birthright non-transferable "share" of the total stock in the stock markets. They would get a dividend check every month, so we would all be capitalists. This would be much like Alaska residents getting an oil income check every year, which has pretty wide political support. If corporations get richer, the dividend checks go up.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/24/19 08:21 PM

As much as regular folks deride national politics as a wholly corrupt enterprise and as fond as the teeming masses seem to be of laying a pox on both houses, make no mistake, this is a make or break moment for democracy in our history.
And a 2020 election with another Republican trifecta under the aegis of Donald Trump will be its death knell.

I remember a 2009 Newsweek cover hinting at an op-ed by Jon Meacham, "We Are All Socialists Now".


Originally Posted By: Jon Meacham
All of this is unfolding in an economy that can no longer be understood, even in passing, as the Great Society vs. the Gipper.

This isn't a tribal rivalry anymore. At this point it's not even two armed opponents loading their clips and preparing for a duel to the death, because one shooter is using hostages as human shields as they aim at each other.

If the hostages die, will Newsweek publish a cover like this instead?

Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/24/19 09:04 PM

We can always hope...
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 12:06 AM

Iíve found the Democratic Party establishment to be more authoritarian than the republicans.
The outside candidate was democratically chosen by their party.
The Democratic Party rigged itís primary.
Now the Ďliberalí class is trying to reverse the democratically elected President allying with the intelligence community rather than doing politics.
Another example of its own hypocrisy.
You go on in apocalyptic tone, Jeff, but the inverted totalitarian state were in has been a bipartisan effort.
Forgive me when I canít take your dire pitch seriously. I find the liberal class more responsible as the betrayal of their traditional base is theirs and theirs alone.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 01:05 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Iíve found the Democratic Party establishment to be more authoritarian than the republicans.
The outside candidate was democratically chosen by their party.
The Democratic Party rigged itís primary.
Now the Ďliberalí class is trying to reverse the democratically elected President allying with the intelligence community rather than doing politics.
Another example of its own hypocrisy.
You go on in apocalyptic tone, Jeff, but the inverted totalitarian state were in has been a bipartisan effort.
Forgive me when I canít take your dire pitch seriously. I find the liberal class more responsible as the betrayal of their traditional base is theirs and theirs alone.


Vote for Trump then.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 01:11 AM

Ok boomer...
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 01:17 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Ok boomer...


OK Trumper. wink
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 02:01 AM

Well Jeff, Iíve never been tempted to vote for a fascist no matter what logo theyíre sporting. Can you say the same?
Didnít you state not to long ago your being fascist curious with McCain?

Curious that...
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 02:28 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Well Jeff, Iíve never been tempted to vote for a fascist no matter what logo theyíre sporting. Can you say the same?
Didnít you state not to long ago your being fascist curious with McCain?

Curious that...





I know what you're referring to but your spin is what's fascinating.
Maybe clarify a little more.
Or...call a repairman. Your spin cycle should never be this long.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 02:55 AM

You accuse me of supporting Trump, no?

Deeply offensive to my politics.

I find your suggestion ironic coming from someone who considered McCain.
Frankly, Iíve never considered you to have politics. More of a brand conscious choice.

A politics without politics really.

What was spin?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 03:14 AM

You're a Xer aren't you Chunks? The overall mindset here is definitely Boomer Hive Mind. We are who we are. I am ashamed of what has happened to my generation and you should be ashamed that yours is even worse. The sooner Millenials take over the better. They're a lot more amenable to social democracy aka "socialism".
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 03:19 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
You accuse me of supporting Trump, no?

Deeply offensive to my politics.

I find your suggestion ironic coming from someone who considered McCain.
Frankly, Iíve never considered you to have politics. More of a brand conscious choice.

A politics without politics really.

What was spin?


I suggested you consider voting Trump since absolutely nothing in the Democratic Party satisfies you, and you're convinced we're worse.
I've even suggested that your wholesale condemnation of anything liberal or Democrat might as well equal a vote for Trump.

Does that make you a Trump supporter? Normally I would say "NO" but at this point, who knows? You hate everyone but Bernie to the marrow of your bones.
I love Bernie, I did support him all through the campaign season last time around.
To you, I am a traitor because I reluctantly but sincerely pulled the H lever.

Dude, Bernie Bros HAVE voted for Trump.
It's a documented fact.
So, if you want to howl like a wounded dog because I finally went
"Hmm --- then vote for Trump"

I can't stop you.

But to clear up your homespun and rather adorable suggestion that I love fascism, to refresh memories:

At the very very OUTSET of the 2008 campaign season I had no earthly idea who Obama was, and upon learning his middle name and seeing a glimpse of him, I assumed that there was no way he could even win the primary so I threw up my hands and figured IF WE ARE GOING TO BE STUCK WITH a Republican president, at least let's try for someone who is at least slightly sane.

To paraphrase Marcellus Wallace, that's pretty f***in far from loving fascists or fascism, and as was the case, the moment my wife saw and heard Palin bloviating, I deferred to her good judgment and took a closer look at "the Hussein guy".
Ummmm...wow.

And that, in your mind, equals love of fascism. ROTFMOL
Hey dude, I'll see your spin and raise you a purity pony ride for a quarter.

Vote for Trump, don't vote for Trump, vote for Bozo the Clown, don't vote at all, no matter what you do, if you refuse to vote for a Dem because they are 0.0000000001% offensive to your politics, it's a vote for Trump, and you're okay with another four years of the guy.

If I bother to do an advanced search, I might just be able to pull up a quote from you about how we needed this Trump term to teach us all a lesson, but I can't be bothered to find a direct quote when it's pretty clear by now that it's your way or the highway and everyone not on your highway is a traitor.

That's on you, dude.
Enjoy that pony ride.

PS: IF Bernie DOES win the nomination, I WILL vote for him.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 03:39 AM

Yeah, GenX is what the marketeers would file me under.
I try to be careful falling into the generational war but I was reminded of Bidenís response to an immigrant community recently where he told em to Ďvote for Trumpí when they were dissatisfied with his answers to their concerns.
Boomers are just as likely to be poor and downwardly mobile as the rest of the population from what I understand. They seem to be Bidenís base for now.
I havenít been impressed with any politicians from my generation either. They seem to have fallen in step with the center which appears to be crumbling. Canít happen soon enough.
The challenger to the bankrupt speaker of house would be the exception should he prevail in the primary. I can think of no others to feel good about from my age demographic.
Booker? Gillibrand? Yikes!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 03:54 AM

Iíve seen you spread propaganda Jeff but not much politics.

Your Bernie bro fairy tales have grown old but some campaigns are devised around repetition and youíve been all to happy to oblige with that sort of false narrative. You really need to ask yourself why.

I can honestly say I never BSíed myself into voting fascist. Please donít lecture me on loyalty to the Democratic Party.

If you want to lay blame on Trumps election try focusing your barrel of ink on that thoroughly corrupt, undemocratic, illiberal 2016 democratic candidates campaign that sought to elevate him in the first place.

But that would require an honest critique. Something libs have little tolerance for.
Fantasy is what they trade in nowadays.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 04:18 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Iíve seen you spread propaganda Jeff but not much politics.

Your Bernie bro fairy tales have grown old but some campaigns are devised around repetition and youíve been all to happy to oblige with that sort of false narrative. You really need to ask yourself why.

I can honestly say I never BSíed myself into voting fascist. Please donít lecture me on loyalty to the Democratic Party.

If you want to lay blame on Trumps election try focusing your barrel of ink on that thoroughly corrupt, undemocratic, illiberal 2016 democratic candidates campaign that sought to elevate him in the first place.

But that would require an honest critique. Something libs have little tolerance for.
Fantasy is what they trade in nowadays.



Yeah well as you know I'll "lecture you" (see? Another chunk drama moment - can we stick to the politics instead of making this about me, it's always "about me" with you) about any thing I damn well please if you're going to make this "about me" and "my love of fascism". LOL

So it's a lecture now? Wait a minute, aren't YOU lecturing me about fascism? ROTFMOL

Can we get back to talking about why the Democratic Party is the kiss of death but suffering under another four years of Trump "ain't all that bad because at least we didn't have to adjust 0.00034% of our principles to accept a candidate who isn't perfect" ??

Or whatever it is about the Democratic Party that makes them worse than four more years of Trump?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


If you want to lay blame on Trumps election try focusing your barrel of ink on that thoroughly corrupt, undemocratic, illiberal 2016 democratic candidates campaign that sought to elevate him in the first place.



I've never said that the Democratic Party was a paragon of virtue, have I?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 04:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
You're a Xer aren't you Chunks? The overall mindset here is definitely Boomer Hive Mind. We are who we are. I am ashamed of what has happened to my generation and you should be ashamed that yours is even worse. The sooner Millenials take over the better. They're a lot more amenable to social democracy aka "socialism".


Social democracy, democratic socialism...hey, if it happens you won't see me crying about it at all. I can adjust to either of those a lot easier than I can adjust to what we appear to be sinking into at the moment, that's for sure.
I just have my doubts about it happening, but if it looks like it is in the cards, I'll go for it.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 04:44 AM

I responded to your:

ĎAs much as regular folks deride national politics as a wholly corrupt enterprise and as fond as the teeming masses seem to be of laying a pox on both houses, make no mistake, this is a make or break moment for democracy in our history.
And a 2020 election with another Republican trifecta under the aegis of Donald Trump will be its death knell.í

I disagreed with it. More of that apocalyptic civilization hanging in the balance rhetoric that so much of the Democratic Party is trying to run on. You seem to be repeating it.


Trumps election was s gift. I donít run from that statement. This fight between the corporate wing and progressives had to happen. Trump was the catalyst, IMO.


I donít think inverted socialism is a thing either.
Inverted totalitarianism? Yes, I would argue itís where weíve been.
Inverted socialism? It seems a contradiction of meanings.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 04:48 AM

Inverted totalitarianism
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 04:51 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I responded to your:

ĎAs much as regular folks deride national politics as a wholly corrupt enterprise and as fond as the teeming masses seem to be of laying a pox on both houses, make no mistake, this is a make or break moment for democracy in our history.
And a 2020 election with another Republican trifecta under the aegis of Donald Trump will be its death knell.í

I disagreed with it. More of that apocalyptic civilization hanging in the balance rhetoric that so much of the Democratic Party is trying to run on. You seem to be repeating it.


Trumps election was s gift. I donít run from that statement. This fight between the corporate wing and progressives had to happen. Trump was the catalyst, IMO.


I donít think inverted socialism is a thing either.
Inverted totalitarianism? Yes, I would argue itís where weíve been.
Inverted socialism? It seems a contradiction of meanings.





Then you shouldn't worry about what happens if we witness a 2020 Trump Trifecta all over again. Payback mode, isn't that what he said it would be?

And you'll get another four years of "teaching us boomers a lesson", but in all actuality I think it might be another seventy years because I do not believe democracy can survive.
You do, guess we'll have to wait.

By the way, do you have a plan B in case it does die?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 05:00 AM

Iím amused that you think itís a democracy we live under.


Payback? Refresh my memory. Not sure what your referring to.

ĎTeaching us boomers a lessoní? Iíve lost the plot here.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 05:34 AM

Anywho, liked the article but wondered why there was no attempt to relate the metaphor to whatís being done successfully in other parts of the world. It might have helped to stretch the imagination a bit more by grafting on real examples than the window co-op cited.
Still, I enjoyed the piece.
Thanks for bringing it up Logs.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 06:04 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Iím amused that you think itís a democracy we live under.


Payback? Refresh my memory. Not sure what your referring to.

ĎTeaching us boomers a lessoní? Iíve lost the plot here.


If you actually don't remember the comments about Trump in payback mode, and you're actually the least bit curious, I suspect you'll do what most people do. You have a computer, so stop wasting my time with your errands, please.

And as for the quality of our democracy, everyone already understands that it is deteriorating rapidly. Hello, we are about to impeach a president at least partly because of that.

Wait till you get a load of what payback mode is going to look like in 2021, then you'll be able to better understand the general sense of what I said about our democracy.
If you don't...you don't, es no mi problemo senor.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 07:26 AM

Hallo, werenít you at various times defending the corruption in the 2016 primary?
You expect to be taken seriously about Ďthreats to democracyí now?
Gimme a break. You canít have it both ways. Giving your preferred party a free pass over their corrupt shite while calling foul over the other party and trying to impeach on the lamest of excuses.
Donít get me wrong, as a distraction from any meaningful political debate itís been wonderfully effective. Lids have been lapping it up as intended. The odds that he will be impeached are very low. If that moronic Russiagate waste of time is any indication, his popularity should go up as a result of this circus. It may even be a gift to the President to mobilize his base to turn out and vote.
If there is a payback from a re-elected President I wonder what Libs will be blaming then?
Definitely not themselves, if history is any guide.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 07:50 AM

A good example of organic self organizing and democratizing the means of production and Capitol has been happening in Greece.
The Viome factory was taken over by workers when the owners went bust and German austerity was imposed on the nation.

Viome

Itís future is not certain but it got a lot of support from other trade/labor unions that bought its products in support and solidarity during the initial takeover. Seemed pretty organic to me.

Itís back story
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Hallo, werenít you at various times defending the corruption in the 2016 primary?


The trick with hyperbole is "less is more".
That also applies to wild exaggerations.
Outright distortions? Not so sure there's a soupÁon for that.

popcorn2
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 08:34 PM

O.K.
Maybe my recollection is wrong. Coulda swore you, as well as others on this board that supported Clinton, were giving a lot of excuses over the outright corruption and collusion of the DNC and the Clinton camp in the 2016 primary.

I don't believe there were many calling it out. A lot of 'yeah but' and 'I'll grant you that but'. A bunch of 'Sanders wasn't a democrat anyway'.

You can see how those same people howling about how Trump cheated and threatens democracy is less than honest and phony to it's core?

I apologize if your hate was pure then as it must be now. Wouldn't want to mischaracterize your position.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 08:44 PM

"As it was, I was on a crap-ton of Bernie Facebook groups during that period and it's awfully difficult to interpret it as Trump reaching out to Bernie Bros for me, because I was seeing Bernie Bros talking about Trump before the Democratic Convention.
Scads of them had already made up their minds that the nomination was corrupt and tilted against Bernie and that they were in a mood to put Trump in just to teach America a lesson.

Never mind that, by refusing to be a Democrat, Bernie was up against Rule Numero Uno in the DNC:

1. Choose a Democrat as candidate, no choosing OUTSIDE the party.

Rule Numero Dos:

2. Protect the chosen DNC candidate at all costs.

I've expounded on this innumerable times, you cannot be outside the party and expect that party to help you in a POTUS race. It just doesn't work that way, it never has and it likely never will.

But anyway, a month or even two months before the convention, a lot of hardcore Bernie or Bust Bros were announcing their intention to vote Trump if Bernie lost the primary, again...just to teach us all a lesson."

Oh wait,...

That was you Jeff. Excusing the criminal collusion of the DNC and Clinton camp.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 08:45 PM

"Because in the end, whether you and I agree what they did was immoral or even sometimes illegal, they did what a party is required to do, select a candidate and then protect them."

memories.....
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 08:46 PM

Talk to me more about how Trump is undermining democracy Jeff...
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 10:09 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Talk to me more about how Trump is undermining democracy Jeff...


Gaslighting, not a good look on you.
Try a different tactic.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
"Because in the end, whether you and I agree what they did was immoral or even sometimes illegal, they did what a party is required to do, select a candidate and then protect them."

memories.....


And that is the case.
We may not like it, we should change it, but that is how our system works. You like to categorize that as defense, but then again you like to miscategorize, distort and twist a lot of things.
It pisses you off when someone explains reality to you, it conflicts with your vision of how it should be, to the point where, even if another agrees that it should be the way you stated, PFFFFTTT, TOO LATE!, you've already tagged them as a traitor anyway, hence you interpret:

Originally Posted By: Jeffery Haas
"Because in the end, whether you and I agree what they did was immoral or even sometimes illegal, they did what a party is required to do, select a candidate and then protect them."


As equivalent to:

Originally Posted By: Jeffery Haas
"Chunk, we should all bow down to the way the DNC does things."


You know what it reminds me of?
It reminds me of the way Antifa treats liberals and Democrats.
We're not far enough to the Left for them, thus we are TRAITOROUS SCUM.


In the future, if you pull up one of my quotes, maybe you could do us all a solid and copy the URL to the post in question, so that we can all visit the entire thread to glean the context the statement was made in.
In this case however, lack of that just points to your laziness.
You didn't bother because you're not even serious about this whole thing. You're just having a bad day and you want to take it out on me.
I say that because I know you're not stupid, thus you KNOW how to LINK to a post via URL.

You just didn't bother because for you, this is entertainment.
Glad I could entertain you.
Now can we all get back to talking about Organic Socialism or did you want to start your own "Jeff is an [censored] who loves fascism" thread?

You haven't proved that I love fascism, you haven't proved that I defended DNC corruption either.
failpail

All you've proven is that you have an obsession, a rather unhealthy one, which tends to divert attention away from the debate subjects.
If I am living rent-free in your head, seek help for that.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 10:23 PM

"Because in the end, whether you and I agree what they did was immoral or even sometimes illegal, they did what a party is required to do, select a candidate and then protect them."

I thought voters decided who should win primaries.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 10:24 PM

Be happy to discuss organic socialism Jeff.
I only push back on your democracy is threatened posting as it offends anyone who has a historical memory of your posts or politics in general.



Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Be happy to discuss organic socialism Jeff.
I only push back on your democracy is threatened posting as it offends anyone who has a historical memory of your posts or politics in general.


There wasn't any pushback. Undetectable levels of pushback...detected.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 11:05 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Iíve found the Democratic Party establishment to be more authoritarian than the republicans.
The outside candidate was democratically chosen by their party.
The Democratic Party rigged itís primary.
Now the Ďliberalí class is trying to reverse the democratically elected President allying with the intelligence community rather than doing politics.
Another example of its own hypocrisy.
You go on in apocalyptic tone, Jeff, but the inverted totalitarian state were in has been a bipartisan effort.
Forgive me when I canít take your dire pitch seriously. I find the liberal class more responsible as the betrayal of their traditional base is theirs and theirs alone.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 11:07 PM

Never said you loved fascists Jeff. I believe I said you were fascist curious with McCain.

How bout them co-opís?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/25/19 11:24 PM

Found it again..

Mind you, I don't see any point either Jeff, you asked s'all.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 01:24 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Never said you loved fascists Jeff. I believe I said you were fascist curious with McCain.

How bout them co-opís?
|

I can set my watch by you at this point, because if I don't condemn everyone but your favorite Pelosi challenger, or Jill Stein's VP pick, and I don't cheer for your Greek factory, you go all Scientology Fair Game on me.
Congratulations, I said earlier that I didn't think you were a purity pony but apparently I was wrong.
But go ahead and shriek that I am a fascist if you like.

Now let's get back to talking about organic socialism, shall we?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 01:40 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Found it again..

Mind you, I don't see any point either Jeff, you asked s'all.


You seem to have forgotten about THIS

and THIS.

Are those also examples of me defending DNC corruption, too? ROTFMOL

Give up, Chunkstyle.

Go find a new hobby. You really suck at outing Jeff's love of the DNC and Jeff's budding fasc-curious fetish.
You're beginning to act and sound exactly like an angry Antifa, plus you're not contributing anything of value to the thread.
Screeching falsehoods about someone isn't a thing of value unless you're doing The Real Housewives show.

Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 02:11 AM

Did I misrepresent your positions Jeff?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 03:13 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Did I misrepresent your positions Jeff?



It is what you do...or TRY to do.
You are not capable of representing or misrepresenting my views.
Misrepresenting when you know better is called LYING.
You spelled LYING wrong. wink

Lemme ask you a question.

Do you have any positive feelings about the 2018 Blue Wave?
How about the recent turnovers this year, the so called "2019 mini-Blue Wave"?

Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 04:05 AM

I told you what I disagreed in your statement and why.
Go eff yourself with your accusations of me lying. Youíve been doing quite a lot of Ďdiviningí of my motivations and intentions. Lemme help you with that:

Your voting arguments and threats to democracy are full of s***, ok? Is that direct and clear enough for you?
Thatís not saying your full of s***, just your argument. I told you why.

Your last post, however, has convinced me that you are full of s***.

2018 was a mixed bag. Some bright spots, some bad ones and the usual structural obstacles thrown up to thwart progressives by the Democratic Party. Iíve posted plenty about it during the time. You want a link for that?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I told you what I disagreed in your statement and why.
Go eff yourself with your accusations of me lying.


Don't forget twisting and distorting.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 05:15 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I told you what I disagreed in your statement and why.


A Bernie win is a win for the Democrats even if he refuses to officially be a Democrat.
How does it make you feel to realize that Bernie might wind up helping Democrats?

You can support Bernie and be happy that Democrats took back the House. You can support Bernie and be happy that Trump is being impeached. You can support Bernie and be happy that Elizabeth Warren is one of the top tier candidates.

You CAN, but I get the sneaking feeling that YOU, chunkstyle, are almost apoplectic about all of the above. There is no question in my mind at this point, that the thought of ANYTHING Bernie does helping the Democrats would be anathema for you, thus I am convinced that, in reality, you desperately want and need for Bernie to LOSE more than the DNC establishment ever did.

And if Bernie ever does become POTUS, I'd bet fifty bucks you guys will stab him in the back at the first opportunity because in reality, far as you folks are concerned, he's expendable.
And so is everyone else outside your circle, it would seem.

Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 12:44 PM

Thats some babbling brook of BS you got going Jeff.

Like I say, your full of s***.

Sanders is my man. That has nothing to do with your being full of s***.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 12:56 PM

Sorry. Thatís a bit harsh.
Let me stick to my usual reaction to people who are full of s***.

Yeah Jeff, your right.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 06:43 PM

This is probably a mistake. I think that Chunk and Jeff are both lefties of some sort. Apparently they are also both anti Trump. In addition to that they are also determined to fight, tooth and nail, or something (can't really figure it out). All that being said, if true, kinda reinforces my thought that the left is determined to get Trump elected next year as the important thing, as far as I can tell, is to rip each other to shreds so that somebody can be "right".

For some very strange many that vote Democratic are also determined to be "right", no matter what. Political Purity is, apparently, VERY important. Just don't understand it - sorry.............

Interesting times................
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/26/19 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
This is probably a mistake. I think that Chunk and Jeff are both lefties of some sort. Apparently they are also both anti Trump. In addition to that they are also determined to fight, tooth and nail, or something (can't really figure it out). All that being said, if true, kinda reinforces my thought that the left is determined to get Trump elected next year as the important thing, as far as I can tell, is to rip each other to shreds so that somebody can be "right".

For some very strange many that vote Democratic are also determined to be "right", no matter what. Political Purity is, apparently, VERY important. Just don't understand it - sorry.............

Interesting times................


What I am beginning to realize is, I had no idea that the Bernie camp was so divided. I thought a Bernie Bro was just someone who liked Bernie!
I thought Karen and I were Bernie Bros. We donated, got tee shirts, marched around downtown, talked to people, participated and donated some more, I even got to shoot footage of him immediately before he announced and people had barely even heard he had committed yet.

So, I thought a Bernie fan is a Bernie fan, period.
Apparently not, and apparently as far as these other Bernie fans, the Bernie Bros, are concerned, I don't make the cut because I was willing to just vote D in case Bernie didn't make it.

And apparently that is unforgivable as far as the Bernie Bros are concerned, and I am actually a fascist...or "fasc-curious".
Of course, I have seen and heard that kind of stuff before.



Nobody can accuse me of purity, sorry.
Apparently my mortal sin is the fact that I acted out of pragmatism, which is the opposite of purity.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/27/19 07:50 AM

I disagreed with a point Jeff made in one of his posts.
Weíre on 4 pages of hyperbole and aggrievement .
Itís now come down to support of Sanders bonafides for some reason.

My initial bone of contention is that I very much see the Democratic Party being illiberal that is just as threatening to democracy, in many ways, as republicans. I donít buy the bipolar choice argument. We could have argued that.

My guess is Jeff has personal beef with me.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/27/19 11:18 PM

What is your solution for a "Democratic Party being illiberal that is just as threatening to democracy, in many ways, as republicans?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let's take a generic Democrat, a generic Republican and some generic independents.
What should the generic Republican do?
What should the generic Democrat do?
What should the generic Independent do?

Feel free to add more generic members of other groups as you see fit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because I do not disagree with the notion that the Democratic Party is acting with a certain degree of unacceptable hostility to the democratic process. In fact, I'd even say that the Democratic Party has been distorting the democratic process for decades, along with their counterparts.

So, now that I've ignored your "nth attempt" at making this personal yet one more time, I'd love it if you'd offer your own solution to the above.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 09:06 AM

If you think the Democratic Party is illiberal then the least you can do is not promote ideas to vote for them as theyíre not as bad as the other side.

Iím not sure why it gets returned to a Ďwhatís your solution then?í when someone points out the contradictions in a position.

Iíve already offered you my opinion on what can be done on an individual level. This is not the first time this question has been asked of me by you. Why is this necessary to be answered again?

Itís not for me to say what a fascist should do or an independent.

As far as promoting the idea that we should vote for Democrats because theyíre better than republicans, my argument is Ďnot by muchí and all to often, thru greed and ambition, theyíre even worse. How?

It is usually the centrists corporate Democrats who thwart any progressive efforts long before republicans have a go at it.
Examples would be de-carbonizong the party of fossil fuel money, resisting raising the minimum wage, strengthening unions rights to organize and collectively bargain, a green new deal, MFA, etc

Where do they find their fetishized bipartisanship with the right over the left?

Military spending, authorization to go to war, opposing progressives thru the party election campaign structure. Deregulation, Empire. State violence, militarization of police, capitalism as an organizing principle for society, racism, etc etc

Returning them to power with no solutions to peopleís material interests will be a recipe for disaster, imo. ĎBlue no matter whoí against the specter of the awfulness of Republicans would do exactly that and seems to be what your arguing, . It will only set the table for a worse republican down the road. Someone more capable of getting more awful things done than this incompetent one. Allowing rich, liberal Democrats to campaign off of and run against as they have done for decades now.

The views Iíve expressed are from my own attempts to understand the current state of politics and have nothing to do with you personally but everything to do with what youíve expressed and advocated in your post I took issue with.

Posted by: logtroll

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 02:05 PM

A fine example of organic socialism - more than 100 people working seamlessly and selflessly together in performing a thing of beauty...

Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 05:52 PM


Who would chunckstye vote for Prezzie in 2020? Hmm
Posted by: jgw

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 06:08 PM

I am having problems with this whole thing. Apparently the argument is about voting or not voting and, again apparently, this one is actually (when all is said and done) a plan to not vote in the coming election so we can have Trump back for another 4 years thereby showing everybody that the Democrats are utterly wrong and, at least, as bad as what Trump brings to the table.

What we have, I guess, a really good example of how we get another 4 years of Trump. Sorry, I, for one, will vote against Trump and with the Democrats even though, again apparently, the Dems are evil incarnate.

Who would have guessed?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I am having problems with this whole thing. Apparently the argument is about voting or not voting and, again apparently, this one is actually (when all is said and done) a plan to not vote in the coming election so we can have Trump back for another 4 years thereby showing everybody that the Democrats are utterly wrong and, at least, as bad as what Trump brings to the table.

What we have, I guess, a really good example of how we get another 4 years of Trump. Sorry, I, for one, will vote against Trump and with the Democrats even though, again apparently, the Dems are evil incarnate.

Who would have guessed?


You fascist lover!!!
I guess we're both fascist lovers, right?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Who would chunckstye vote for Prezzie in 2020? Hmm


I asked him for suggestions and got

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Iím not sure why it gets returned to a Ďwhatís your solution then?í when someone points out the contradictions in a position.


So apparently it's okay to condemn everybody who doesn't march in lockstep with his opinions but we're not supposed to ask for any ideas either. We're suppposed to just hang our heads in shame, and let the MF-er burn to the ground.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 06:43 PM

The rest of my post stated I have answered this perennial Ďwhatís your solution thení question.
Here goes, one more time, loudly, for the cheap seats:

VOTE FOR YOUR CLASS INTERESTS

Would you care to explain why itís even relevant?



You seem upset about the fascist curious label.
How about McCain curious?

Happy thanksgiving yíall.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Who would chunckstye vote for Prezzie in 2020? Hmm


I posted earlier, Sanders is my guy.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Who would chunckstye vote for Prezzie in 2020? Hmm


I posted earlier, Sanders is my guy.



And he will be my guy if he gets a chance.
I hope he does. I hope he can sell his ideas well enough that folks will get it and run with it.

I don't agree with everything he wants but I agree with enough of it that I sure as hell would vote for him in November.
I've donated to him this year just as I did last time in 2016.
I had the same issues and doubts about him back then too but it doesn't mean I didn't donate.

You just don't seem to understand how others view and think about these people. Clearly I support the man but I go about it in a different way.
That different way doesn't make me fasc-curious, or an enabler of elite corruption in the DNC, or anything else.

Maybe someday you will understand that, or not.
Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The rest of my post stated I have answered this perennial Ďwhatís your solution thení question.
Here goes, one more time, loudly, for the cheap seats:

VOTE FOR YOUR CLASS INTERESTS

Would you care to explain why itís even relevant?



You seem upset about the fascist curious label.
How about McCain curious?

Happy thanksgiving yíall.


How about I didn't know who Obama was yet and my "curious" interlude lasted all of maybe a day or two.
Once Palin appeared, I realized it was nutz and went and took another look at that odd Hussein guy, who seemed to be pretty good.
Here's the kicker - Karen and I both voted for him - TWICE.
Neither of us voted for McCain, except in your mind because "fasc-curious!1!!!11!!!1!" tinfoilhat

Your obsession with that (and your prior hissy fit) on the other hand, has not only lasted longer, it will now live forever on thuh innernets.

Nice try at dodging and deflecting, but clearly you are the one who is upset because you're the one who couldn't wait to condemn me.

It's what you do! You condemn people.

Vote for class interests? How about do more than just vote?
We're trying to impeach the guy who wants to destroy the entire class altogether.


You appear to want to "impeach and remove" the entire system.
Okayfinewhatever but do you have something on deck to replace it?
Or are we all condemned to live in a vacuum?
Guarantee that ain't gonna happen because power always fills a vacuum. You'd be amazed at how quickly that happens, and if you DO NOT have something on deck, your enemy sure as sh!t will.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Would you care to explain why itís even relevant?

Because you think everyone else's ideal candidate sucks. I simply wanted to understand who YOU think is the ideal candidate to run this country.

smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Who would chunckstye vote for Prezzie in 2020? Hmm


I posted earlier, Sanders is my guy.

I was a Bernie Bro in 2016. smile

This time I'll take ANYBODY over Trump. Getting rid fo Trump is that important to me. Hmm
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 09:12 PM

Iím hoping to avoid another Trump. Weíll have to disagree on how to do that.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/28/19 09:14 PM

Bernie bro (t.m. Clinton 2016) was not a thing.
Repeating the smear has made it one now but only to a limited audience.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 12:02 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Bernie bro (t.m. Clinton 2016) was not a thing.
Repeating the smear has made it one now but only to a limited audience.


It sure as Hell was.
Every single Bernie Sanders page or group on social media sites like FB were swamped by multiple attacks both from Russian trolls and Bros who vowed to see to it we'd get Trump if they didn't get Bernie.

That's why wifey and I were shocked to realize that we were just two ordinary people who picked Bernie, but apparently we were NOT "Bros".
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 01:07 AM

Not wanting to give anyone homework but do you have any credible evidence that supports a Trump victory by sanders supporters.
AKA Bernie Bros?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 04:11 AM

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me...Farmers in the flyover states elected Trump. Redneck assh*les elected Trump. The vagueries of the electoral college elected Trump. Obama haters elected Trump. Disgruntled democrats didn't elect Trump.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 11:01 AM

If you look at the numbers, an awful lot of White women voted for Trump. I was actually shocked by the high percentage because Trump was such an obvious misogynist pig. Women don't trust other women. I think it may be a competition thing. This is why I worry about Warren, even though she may be the best qualified.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 04:43 PM

The same voters that voted for Obama twice in the upper midwest also voted for Trump.

Understanding that would go a long ways to understanding how to win in 2020 but that would require doing politics.


I personally think the entire 2016 Primary holds the key to winning in 2020, butthat's just me and I admit to being in the minority on discussing that subject honestly and rationally.

Those subjects will be informing my voting preference.

What I see going on is a whole lot of distraction and not much else. A healthy dose of redbaiting and smearing has been going on also.

A sorry rational to vote with.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 04:51 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Would you care to explain why itís even relevant?

Because you think everyone else's ideal candidate sucks. I simply wanted to understand who YOU think is the ideal candidate to run this country.

smile



I gave a critique. It's an old professional habit and training that has become a liability sometimes.

If I said someone sucked,Rick, was I at least giving an explanation why?

I think that's fair but sometimes people confuse a critique with a personal attack. Gets me in trouble when I forget that.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 06:00 PM

Quote:
The same voters that voted for Obama twice in the upper midwest also voted for Trump.

That's probably a bigger issue than the Sanders voters. There are a lot of people out there who are not partisans, pay no attention to politics or the news, and they vote in presidential elections only.

Donald Trump spoke to them. He voiced their innermost resentments. And some, who had fallen for the earlier "Hope and Change" con, also fell for Trump's Bullsh*t. No it wasn't the handful of left leaning primary voters who preferred Sanders over Clinton who might then have voted for Trump.

Face it... It was a perfect storm of f*ck-ups that got us where we are.

A fluke.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 08:05 PM

West Virginia should also be looked at closely. Sanders message won him a landslide there.
Trump won it in a landslide there.

Thereís a drum beating for blue no matter who. Itís not a question of brand loyalty but of issues that speak to voters.

Blue no matter who is not sustainable in the long run. Time is not on our side under the current state of affairs and the electoral college is up for grabs still.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/29/19 08:30 PM

West Virginia only has 5 electoral votes and it's not turning blue anytime soon.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/30/19 12:14 PM

It gives clues to rural votes that most democrats seem clueless with now.

My shock at finding the Trillbillyís getting profiled on the Lamestream:
Sanders bridging the rural divide

They hail out of Kentucky. McConnell country. Not to mention southern Ohio.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/30/19 09:37 PM

Quote:
They hail out of Kentucky. McConnell country. Not to mention southern Ohio.


It bears mentioning that there are a f*ck ton of progressives and democrats in general even in the reddest areas and vice versa the right wingnuts in the cities. Just not enough to win elections.

I'm wondering if Bernie might be about to surge. His Facebook Thanksgiving greeting had 45K likes when I saw it.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 11/30/19 09:49 PM

Voting isn't marriage, it's public transport.
You're not "waiting for the one" who is absolutely perfect.
You're catching the bus.
And if there isn't one going exactly to your destination,
you don't stay at home and sulk, or get on a bus going the opposite
direction, you take the one going closest to where you want to be.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/01/19 04:10 PM

Obama May have been the last metaphor and altruistic rhetoric strategy campaign.
People donít seem to be voting for metaphors, a Ďwere just better than them over there, or the usual hectoring.
The Midwest proved it in 2016.

Democrats, as s party, refuse to address the majority of peopleís concerns:
Senate Democrats Join GOP to Back 'Autom...g Bold Policies

Nor are they willing to address the very question of survival and how, they, as a party, would lay out a vision to deal with it:
Democrats refuse to take climate change seriously

So, no, itís not a question of voting blue no matter who, buses getting you close to where you want to go, or perfection not playing mice with the good. Itís more a matter of illiberal ineffectual and dominant power structures maintaining their positions of power at the expense of winning elections rather than piss off their donor class.

As Robert Reich put it:
A centrist cannot win in 2020.

Or as the Heads sang:

Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/01/19 05:22 PM

Quote:
A centrist cannot win in 2020.

Because even if a centrist wins...it's a net loss. Ineffectual centrist governance got us where we are. It's not gonna get us out of this.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/01/19 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
A centrist cannot win in 2020.

Because even if a centrist wins...it's a net loss. Ineffectual centrist governance got us where we are. It's not gonna get us out of this.


Naw. First we move from "totally [censored]" to "normal".

Then we can push for something worth having.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/01/19 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
A centrist cannot win in 2020.

Because even if a centrist wins...it's a net loss. Ineffectual centrist governance got us where we are. It's not gonna get us out of this.


BOOM!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/01/19 06:27 PM

Nothing excites the electorate like gradual incrementalism.

Democrats 2020!
Cuz no one likes their issues being addressed in the near term.

On the other hand, look how much ground the fascists have ceded with their radical regressive goals....

A losing political strategy to be sure.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/01/19 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Voting isn't marriage, it's public transport.
You're not "waiting for the one" who is absolutely perfect.
You're catching the bus.
And if there isn't one going exactly to your destination,
you don't stay at home and sulk, or get on a bus going the opposite
direction, you take the one going closest to where you want to be.
I completely support your approach, Jeff. And Chunk is apparently right, too, when he says
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Nothing excites the electorate like gradual incrementalism.
At least according to the polls. 270 to Win.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/01/19 09:04 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Nothing excites the electorate like gradual incrementalism.

Democrats 2020!
Cuz no one likes their issues being addressed in the near term.

On the other hand, look how much ground the fascists have ceded with their radical regressive goals....

A losing political strategy to be sure.


So four blue dogs did blue dog things, F**** the Dems!
Yeah, forget it. Let's just have four more years of Trump because Dems are evil, gotcha.

Of course, I am prepared for another 30,939,438,759,874,598,745,987 page temper tantrum. Bring it on.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/02/19 01:37 AM

Whatís the point arguing Jeff?
Itís obvious your right.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/02/19 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Whatís the point arguing Jeff?
Itís obvious your right.
Finally, a concession I can endorse. wink
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/02/19 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Talk to me more about how Trump is undermining democracy Jeff...


Gaslighting, not a good look on you.
Try a different tactic.
Hey, it works for Trump.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/02/19 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Talk to me more about how Trump is undermining democracy Jeff...


Gaslighting, not a good look on you.
Try a different tactic.
Hey, it works for Trump.


You know what? If someone is just honest and comes right out and SAYS that they are actually a Trump voter, SO WHAT?
Okay, you're a Trump voter.

Chickens lay white eggs and brown eggs, yes?
Kids are born with black, brown, blonde, or red hair, yes?

What I don't get (actually we all DO get) is the idea of being a chicken that lays white eggs, and then takes a brown Sharpie and pretends they are brown eggs, when in reality they're white.

So chunkstyle, if you're really in favor of Trump, just be honest about it. smile

It's okay if you don't agree that Trump is undermining democracy.
Explain to us all how he's fortifying it and preserving it.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/02/19 06:42 PM

<sigh>This thread has drifted so far from the topic I am not certain I know what it is anymore.

So, let me take a stab at opining on the topic: In my view, "organic socialism" is man's natural state. We are a gregarious (social) species. Cooperative. Co-ops are...cooperatives. So, it is a natural state for us to work together toward a goal. Successful companies usually use that as a tool to get productivity. Some enlightened managers see that as a laudable goal for a company to work for the benefit of its employees. I see all of these as 'organic socialism'.

Governments, in the classic liberal construction, are instituted among the population to benefit the population as a whole. Similarly, corporations are, in theory, a method of coordinating "capital" with "workers" to benefit both. That neither are following that paradigm may not be a fault with the conception so much as it is a fault in those at the controls.

Not ALL humans act with altruistic intentions. As a society, we Americans have drifted from those laudable paradigms into selfish ones - idolizing the "individual"; the "self-starter" - without examining the reality behind those successes. No self-starter succeeded alone. They all rely on infrastructure and systems created by others, and the support of others who joined their effort. I think it is important to recognize this to reclaim the mantle of social-ism.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/02/19 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas


Chickens lay white eggs and brown eggs, yes?
Kids are born with black, brown, blonde, or red hair, yes?

What I don't get (actually we all DO get) is the idea of being a chicken that lays white eggs, and then takes a brown Sharpie and pretends they are brown eggs, when in reality they're white.



I never thought Iíd say this, I think Iím missing your car analogies.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/02/19 11:51 PM

Quote:
This thread has drifted so far from the topic I am not certain I know what it is anymore.

While it is generally assumed that white chickens lay white eggs and brown chickens lay brown eggs, the truth is that you must look at their ear lobes to be sure. Yes, chickens have earlobes and yes the color of the earlobe determines the color of the egg. So what about sharpies?
All eggs are white when they are formed inside the chicken. Look at the inside of your brown egg. Yep, it's white. Scratch at the outside a bit and you will see that it has been coloured. Perhaps with a sharpie, I don't know how they do it. You'd have to crawl up a chicken's ass and watch.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/03/19 12:14 AM

Some breeds legs give em away too.
Currently have some cream leg bars that lay blue eggs but have neither blue legs or ear lobes.

Like most things, thereís exceptions.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/03/19 12:57 AM

My Easter Eggers lay bright white eggs, not blue, and I've a couple of little white hens that lay olive tinted eggs. Cuckoo Marans lay chocolate eggs with speckles and the Black Stars lay extra large brown.

Yes, people are inclined to work together, organically choosing social democracy where everyone decides what needs to be done and who should do it. But just like chickens, they're happier if there's a rooster bossing everybody around.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/08/19 05:08 PM

Here is an enlightening article on why Warren might be fading...

Jacobin

It also addresses somewhat the 'purity vs electability' issue.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/08/19 08:07 PM

OK, Zoomers.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/08/19 08:19 PM

ďYou canít change society unless you win elections.Ē

Important thing to remember.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/08/19 09:51 PM

Aint it though.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/09/19 01:42 AM

Rubbish.

Sanders has raised more cash with more people, has more volunteers, shattered records and here comes a piece from politico wondering why thereís disagreements with Warren.

Misdirection.

What are the disagreements? Dunno. Never gets brought up, for some reason.

Just hand wringing about losing election from the constituents that repeatedly field technocrats and/or insiders that go on to llose elections.

Why should anyone think Warren could win?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/09/19 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

Why should anyone think Warren could win?


That was a good faith question, by the way.
Has anyone sufficiently made the case on why she would win?
The mainstream was Warren curious but that seems to have faded for the moment. Buttgiieggg stock is rising with that crowd.

I see Warren having a 'glass jaw;, as someone has pointed out recently, and would get pummelled by Trump and his minions in the general.

'Bernie stole cable television' and got himself elected mayor of Burlington. I can get behind that alone.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/09/19 05:18 PM

My case was simply that she had a chance to win. There was, for a moment, a brief possibility that a progressive candidate could win.

She still has a chance, albeit slim, as does Sanders, but unfortunately former President Obama stepped in and blasted any chance that either progressive candidate had at securing the nomination. What small respect I still had for the former president was blasted away with his announcement that voters should steer clear of progressives.

It's not completely over by any means and just as I predicted, Bernie is seeing a surge in the polls. Warren might even come back because polls are not elections. Between the two I don't really have a preference.

The glass jaw metaphor is certainly a possibility. Early on I wrote her off as un-electable, Trump has her number. Polls indicated that voters might rise above this but her Medicare For All stance seemed to be more than the polling public was willing to accept.

But still, my prediction of a Warren nomination stands for now. I'm not one to bend and sway with the polls. I've picked my horse and made my bet.



Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/09/19 08:06 PM

The poor reception among voters of her Medicare For All plan and subsequent backing off does not bode well for progressives in general. I thought it might be too ambitious, and I guess I was right. Too bad Americans are such shlubs, but it is what it is. Unless Bernie, Elizabeth, or some unknown progressive can reach out and move a lot more of the voters, the candidate is going to end up being Biden. Too bad.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/09/19 09:59 PM

Quote:
I thought it might be too ambitious, and I guess I was right.


We'll see. I expected polls to shuffle around between the top four a little bit, indeed hoped Biden might drop below both Sanders and Warren. I don't think anybody actually wants Biden but everybody is willing to vote for him...except me.

Voters might decide to give it to Bernie! He could beat the feck out of Trump.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/09/19 10:43 PM

Warren did that Medicare For All* that is all to common with liberal democrats.
Like Kamala's college edjucation proposal, it got watered down with fine print and arbitrary timelines that made neither economic nor political sense. Those pesky * that seem to hover around anything democrats propose these daye.
That following her Ted Kazinsky style 'Medicare For All' manifesto that was released dipped in righteous indignation at our current health care industry only to be qualified later with a *.

Not good. Many people are familiar with this and start to wonder how committed you are to your proposals. Not a good move or look for a candidate in this race.

Obama's shine left the left long ago. I think he has been getting a much needed rethink. His real estate development scheming in Chicago, right after leaving office, was the nail in the coffin with him and progressive leftists.

Unions realized he was no friend for much longer.

He should be a cautionary tale for progressive voters going forward.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Organic Socialism - 12/11/19 01:36 AM

Just got home from a meeting with an organization that is pushing for the establishment of a State Bank. North Dakota has had one for over 100 years, but no other state does.

What a state bank does is take all of the receipts from state sources and use them like an outside bank would do in financing bonds and such (donít ask for more detail, this ainít my field of expertise). The main benefit is to have the rent of the money accrue to the state - which I understand is significant. There is also an improvement in flexibility and ďagilityĒ in use of the dough.