The ACA is Constitutional!!!

Posted by: Chuck Howard

The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 02:14 PM

I've been following the decision on SCOTUSBlog!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 02:35 PM

Get ready for the stirring up of the hicks from the right. Ma?
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 02:35 PM

A link to the Huffington Post with video.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/28/supreme-court-health-care-decision_n_1585131.html
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 03:45 PM

DNC: It's constitutional bitches!

ROTFMOL

Congratulations to the Obama Administration. ThumbsUp
Posted by: Ardy

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 03:54 PM

And a real shocker....

it was a 54/4 decision of course, but Kennedy was not the swing vote.... it was ROBERTS
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:00 PM

Now we want Universal Health care.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Ardy
And a real shocker....

it was a 54/4 decision of course, but Kennedy was not the swing vote.... it was ROBERTS

Where did the other 49 SCOTUS judges come from... Hmm
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:02 PM

i don;t think we have seen the last of it

the assault on this law from the right will continue or they will have lost all credibility with their base ... for sure bachman will continue with some nonsensical statements about the Bible, God and America and all the commies who have destroyed America
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
i don;t think we have seen the last of it

The Rethuglicans will whine and bitch and moan all summer long - but ultimately, this law has its bases in Romneycare. The Rethuglicans can't run nor hide from that fact.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:15 PM

Justice Ginsberg has cited Mass. Law and gives a sort of "thanks" to Romney.

Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax
Justice Ginsberg has cited Mass. Law and gives a sort of "thanks" to Romney.

Good for Justice Ginsburg - a good poke in the eye to the Rethuglicans.
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ardy
And a real shocker....

it was a 54/4 decision of course, but Kennedy was not the swing vote.... it was ROBERTS

Where did the other 49 SCOTUS judges come from... Hmm
The 49 are the political handlers that seem to be a hangover from December, 2000. Remember that month? When the Republic died due to a decision that can never be cited as precedent? violin
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:35 PM

Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax
Justice Ginsberg has cited Mass. Law and gives a sort of "thanks" to Romney.

Good for Justice Ginsburg - a good poke in the eye to the Rethuglicans.
Massachusetts? Are they still part of the Onion? I thought they peeled off with RomneyCare? (small snark...)

Oh boy! Let the political mud fly, and it's gonna fly like it's never flied a'fore this. We needed this to put some interest back into an election where too many are saying, "Why vote -- it only encourages them." violin
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:38 PM

'
Bravo !!

Perhaps, in a few decades, the USA will advance to the point that it will have the sensible health insurance which has already existed for several decades in the more civilized nations.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:41 PM

Lillibet
Quote:
Remember that month? When the Republic died due to a decision that can never be cited as precedent?

But Bush V. Gore has been cited as precedent, as noted in this 2008 article.
Bush v. Gore Set to Outlast Its Beneficiary
Which should be taken as a warning to arrogant Supreme Court Justices and those seeking political coup.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
The 49 are the political handlers that seem to be a hangover from December, 2000. Remember that month? When the Republic died due to a decision that can never be cited as precedent? violin

How can I forget?!? The decision alone is why I got involved into politics.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 04:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax
Justice Ginsberg has cited Mass. Law and gives a sort of "thanks" to Romney.

Good for Justice Ginsburg - a good poke in the eye to the Rethuglicans.
Massachusetts? Are they still part of the Onion? I thought they peeled off with RomneyCare? (small snark...)

Oh boy! Let the political mud fly, and it's gonna fly like it's never flied a'fore this. We needed this to put some interest back into an election where too many are saying, "Why vote -- it only encourages them." violin

When the RWNJs start whining - all the left has to say is: Thank you Mitt Romney. Bow
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 05:04 PM

Candidate Romney's response to the ACA
Quote:
Romney: Supreme Court ruling on health law wrong

***
Republican Mitt Romney is promising that he will repeal the federal health care law the Supreme Court just upheld.
Posted by: keysersoze

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 05:16 PM

Government can mandate but can they manage?

Massachusetts law has done rather well. I'm surprised Romney didn't promote it more rather than bowing to the party needs.

Massachusetts is, however, running a deficit that has increased greater than expected. Some businesses and individuals have discovered holes and have taken advantage.

I have an excellent program. My care and access is exceptional. Will others me raised to my standards or will I be lowered to theirs? Time will tell.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: keysersoze
Massachusetts law has done rather well. I'm surprised Romney didn't promote it more rather than bowing to the party needs.

Romney could not promote it, because he wanted to get nominated. He was attacked repeatedly during by his own Party. For the same reasons, he can't use it now, because so many on the right consider it Socialism. That is called being between a Rock and a Hardplace.
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 06:16 PM

'

Well, if he became President, I am sure he would do What Is Expedient.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax
Romney could not promote it, because he wanted to get nominated. He was attacked repeatedly during by his own Party. For the same reasons, he can't use it now, because so many on the right consider it Socialism. That is called being between a Rock and a Hardplace.

Yet, Rethuglicans are standing by their man and will vote for the very guy who unleashed 'Obamacare' onto them.

You can't make this stuff up. It's too grand. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 06:21 PM

...and Canter and Boehner are presenting their "plan" for heath care on July 11th.

Um...isn't it a little too late for that?
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax
Lillibet
Quote:
Remember that month? When the Republic died due to a decision that can never be cited as precedent?

But Bush V. Gore has been cited as precedent, as noted in this 2008 article.
Bush v. Gore Set to Outlast Its Beneficiary
Which should be taken as a warning to arrogant Supreme Court Justices and those seeking political coup.


The opinion held this language:

Quote:
“Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances,” the majority famously said, “for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities.”

That sentence, translated from high legal jargon into English, was often taken to mean this: The decision was a ticket for one ride only. It was not a precedent. It was a ruling, yes, but it was not law.
from the article cited above.

That language means that the case is sui generis, the legal version of a "one off." It was NOT intended to be cited, which was good, because the case itself was a huge overreach for the Supremes, because they took to themselves powers given only to Congress regarding elections.

For that reason, the Court knew, and inserted the language.

That it has been cited does not mean that it was intended to be cited. That's all I'm saying, and as precedent, it basically stands for what courts ought never do again. Ever. violin
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 07:17 PM

Posted by: Irked

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 07:30 PM

All any Real American can say is "Aaaaaaaaaaaa! The World is ending!"
Posted by: Ma_Republican

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Get ready for the stirring up of the hicks from the right. Ma?


VIOLENT REVOLUTION

What just was blessed by the SCOTUS was the creation of an all powerful federal government. The only solution is overthrow and replacement.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: california rick
You can't make this stuff up. It's too grand. smile

You could not write nor sell a novel with this kind of stuff in it. But ficiton is not supposed to be reality . They will support him, because if he is elected Republicans will have power, and power is everything.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
VIOLENT REVOLUTION

What just was blessed by the SCOTUS was the creation of an all powerful federal government. The only solution is overthrow and replacement.

Damn judicial activists. coffee Now Ma_R, go be a good patriot and pay your health care tax bill. smile
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 07:59 PM

Quote:
Canter and Boehner are presenting their "plan"

the plan in jan 2011 was for states to deal with it i.e. there was no plan

it is hard for me to believe they actually have a plan now ... it is probably just an extension of their previous plans of allowing the free market to continue to do what they have been doing for 60 years ... they will put some lipstick on the donkey and present as a quarter horse

i await in anticipation
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 08:14 PM

Quote:
the creation of an all powerful federal government

that would be the perception of a right wing radical extremist of the anarchical brand ... the rest of the world sees this for what it obviously is ... providing for the general welfare of it's citizenry which is the role of government as outlined in the contractual agreement between individuals in the creation of government

sorry you fail to understand the basics of the social contract
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 08:42 PM

'
Originally Posted By: rporter314

sorry you fail to understand the basics of the social contract

Perhaps it is because the Social Contract is a fantasy.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: numan
'
Originally Posted By: rporter314

sorry you fail to understand the basics of the social contract

Perhaps it is because the Social Contract is a fantasy.


Much like Horatio Alger, Laws of supply and demand and the efficiencies of the free market?

So I'm off to the post office today because the health insurance company that has gotten thousands of dollars from me says that they received only one check from me and not my spouse. I tell them to check again because both checks are in the same envelope along with remittance stubs for each policy being paid for. They said they'd have to go upstairs and open the lock box with an authorized administrator, blah blah blather blah. Long story short they can't find it and it needs to hit their desk by tomorrow or my wife's policy is cancelled. Mind you, We've shoveled thousands of hard earned Amero's at these people.
Got into my car this morning to go to the post office (after cancelling wife's lost check) grumbling about these rat bastard corporations dropping the ball and me having to overnight them my bi-monthly payment, I turn on the radio and hear the breaking news of ACA. Life can be ironic. What a morning.
Now we get to watch the republicans try and destroy it one cut at a time.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 10:09 PM

The Founders believed the individual possessed a certain God given quality which elevated mere humans to special status. That speciality enabled the writers to include the individual in a contractual agreement quid pro quo for creation of government. Without that agreement there would be no legitimate government but mere usurpation by the powerful.

Perhaps you refer to the philosophical arguments of the Founders as sheer fantasy but my rebuttal is based on the actual contract regardless of ephemeral nature of those arguments. Thus we have we the people entering into a contract forming government for which that government will provide the following itinerary of services. That is reality based.
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 10:33 PM

I just got a call from my health insurance company. The one that doubled my premium 2 years ago, then doubled it again a year ago. It also went up another 15% three months ago. Because of my birthday. Think of a number, erase it from your mind and you know which it is. Anyway, no one seems to be discussing the HUGE, nay GINORMOUS benefit for health insurance companies with all those people that didn't HAVE TO BUY health insurance that now have to shell out hundreds every month. Plus, no one has addressed the fact that heath insurance doesn't guarantee health care. I have insurance, but can't use it much because I can't afford the bus fare some months after I pay the premium and the deductible.

Without Single Payer, this act was a dream for the insurance companies that wrote it for the benefit of the Congress, err, I mean, the insurance industry. They got rid of single payer. Why? Not enough money in it for them.

So, once again, the Supremes side on industry/TBTF, and others of that ilk.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/28/12 11:53 PM

I am going to make a bold prediction - like the bold prediction I made to my father-in-law on Tuesday that the Supremes would affirm the ACA in a 5-4 decision with Roberts writing the majority opinion.... wink CALLED IT! Anyhoo... I think that with the SCOTUS blessing, opposition to the ACA will drop below 50% before the Summer is over. This will certainly be true if the President is successful in touting the benefits of the ACA which are all very popular. Six charts to explain health-care polling

As in, "which provision do you want repealed?" Extended dependent coverage? Elimination of pre-existing conditions? Closing the Medicare "doughnut hole"? Eliminating Age/Gender discrimination? But, it really all depends on how the economy is doing at the end of August.
Posted by: AustinRanter

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 12:20 AM

The question for me is: What government auspice is going to be effective in implementing and enforcing the 2100 page plus law, which most Congressional members admit that they haven't read...and that they only assume that their sources, staff, etc have appropriately deciphered the content of the law in its entirety enough to educate them as to what is all means?

Oh wait...silly me...that's how its always worked with most all bills enacted into law.

Never mind.
Posted by: olyve

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 02:01 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I am going to make a bold prediction - like the bold prediction I made to my father-in-law on Tuesday that the Supremes would affirm the ACA in a 5-4 decision with Roberts writing the majority opinion.... wink CALLED IT! Anyhoo... I think that with the SCOTUS blessing, opposition to the ACA will drop below 50% before the Summer is over. This will certainly be true if the President is successful in touting the benefits of the ACA which are all very popular. Six charts to explain health-care polling

As in, "which provision do you want repealed?" Extended dependent coverage? Elimination of pre-existing conditions? Closing the Medicare "doughnut hole"? Eliminating Age/Gender discrimination? But, it really all depends on how the economy is doing at the end of August.
Thank you, NWP!
And when 2014 rolls around and more people are actually "feeling" it.

My husband and I have saved around $4000 since ACA went into effect so far. We are underinsured but were able to find better coverage. Lower deductible. Preventive care.

Lillibet. I feel your pain! We are self employed. Our premium was going up every single year as much some years as 30%!!!
But the coverage was so bad we couldn't use it. Basically only catastrophic.
By far health care expense is our biggest expense and we're in excellent shape especially for our age.

No this isn't single payer and I hope one day that is what we will get but this is a giant step in the right direction. So so many people will be helped.
Look at NWP's link.

We did not see this coming. At ALL!
This is a good day for America.
Finally.

I really do believe this was about John Robert's legacy. I truly do.
In the end he cared about how it would look a hundred years from now.
Stupid as hell otherwise.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 02:10 AM

Link to the affordable care act.

Be the first in your neighborhood, except for the lawyers, staff members, and Congressmen, and SEnators to vote for the Affordable Care Act
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 03:05 AM

I realize that the USA until today was pretty much a third world country where poor people were dying in the streets because of the lack of health care, food, housing, free Internet access ...

Hurray for Karl Marx.

Seriously, where are all these so-called poor people? I don't see them.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 03:23 AM

I guarantee I can show you many Golem. Come to Los Angeles.

Not just the poor and homeless, but the suddenly out of work and ill that are on their way to homeless.

If you do not think they exist I guarantee you are very wrong.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 03:33 AM

Phil, I respect you and I respect your opinion, but I've become both cynical and skeptical of most things. However, I do have great sympathy for the homeless. I don't think this problem should exist.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 03:48 AM

Another view: Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War
Posted by: Chuck Howard

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 03:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Golem


Seriously, where are all these so-called poor people? I don't see them.


So all that exists for you is what you can see??? Now, that's sad.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 04:01 AM

Quote:
Seriously, where are all these so-called poor people? I don't see them.

Yo Hey!
Yer lookin' at one right here, pardner. Dirt poor and just came damn close to dying in the street for lack of affordable healthcare. I have no intention of spilling my guts about it to you here but by the grace of the goddess and a little help from the US Government I still have a roof over my head and have dodged another health crisis. And I'm one of the lucky ones.
People die every day of things that could have been prevented.
Children go hungry every day, old people choose between food and medicine.
There are more poor people in this country than you can even imagine.
We all apologize for being such a burden to you.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 04:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Chuck Howard
Originally Posted By: Golem


Seriously, where are all these so-called poor people? I don't see them.


So all that exists for you is what you can see??? Now, that's sad.

Golem lives in Orange County, CA. Clearly he rarely leaves his south Orange County high-end, Pacific Ocean viewing, neighborhood.

Perhaps a trip to north Orange County (Santa Ana, Garden Grove, Westminster) might enlighten our new Ranter's perspective.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 04:16 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
... CALLED IT!...

Nailed it. smile

How did you know? Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 04:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Golem
Hurray for Karl Marx.

...as if we aren't already on our way to socialism via unemployment insurance, social security, and medicare.

***piffle***

ACA doesn't exist in a vacuum. coffee Maybe your objection is that you're gonna have to pay more taxes so that someone "poor" can have health insurance.

Too bad. Now go be a good patriot and pay your health insurance tax bill.
Posted by: Schlack

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 06:21 AM

Quote:
socialism


Posted by: Ardy

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 07:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins

If you do not think they exist I guarantee you are very wrong.


We have long term unemployed, people losing their houses, and still we all live off the fat of the land.... the only poor are welfare queens and lazy slackers who have chosen poverty as a life style... it is remarkable the country in which we live....
Posted by: Ardy

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 07:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Get ready for the stirring up of the hicks from the right. Ma?


VIOLENT REVOLUTION


Sounds like the only viable alternative.... I hope that we can count on you to kick things off as soon as possible. Perhaps you could post your contact info so like like minded revolutionaries can follow your lead and save the country.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 07:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Golem

Hurray for Karl Marx.

Seriously,


Seriously GOlem?
You seem like a sensible guy
so maybe you can explain to me?

As far as I am aware, every other moderately sucessful and industrialized country has some sort of national health pln... except for the USA....

And, according to you, it appears that all of these countries are adamant adherents of the reviled Karl Marx... and have suffered the consequent enslavement of their people and collapse of their economies....

Does that pretty much cover your world view?

I am not trying to put words in your mouth...
but it does seem to me that the above conclusions are the logical implications of identifying this supreme court ruling as an endorsement of Karl Marx? Every other country with existing national health systems must certainly be painted with the same Marxist epithet?
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Golem
. . .

Seriously, where are all these so-called poor people? I don't see them.
I am one of the poor. I have been unable to get clients to pay me for my work, but because I am on the cases I am, I have to go on representing these thieves, who believe $500 per month covers 4 full days (10 hours per) of lawyer time. Clients say they can't pay because money is tight for them also. When I win, I'll get a bit extra, and a payment for all the payments not made to date. But, will I last that long? I don't know.

Add to that, I have so much pain from a shoulder that wasn't set when I managed to fall and get 7 discrete fractures, and the non-setting was because I had bone cancer so I'd only get about 12 weeks of benefit from the operation, but this means I am in constant pain at the same level as when I fractured the bones.

After about 10 days of working a month, I am so knackered from pain, working more is not possible.

I depend on family, food handouts, and other charity, and invariably come up $800 short per month. Yet, I have to pay my health insurance or my pain meds go from $700 to $1700 per month, with that cost going down to $400 per month from Sept to end of year.

So, the poor might not be obviously visible, but check the shoes. People without money wear the same ones year in and year out. They needed replacing three years ago. Or, check the coat, where sleeves are raggedy at the cuff.

You can find them. You can also see the people moving slowly because of pain, not age. You can find the poor based on when you don't see them. They don't go out for dinner or coffee with friends. They don't see many people at all, because they cannot afford even bus fare to any location for fun.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
... CALLED IT!...

Nailed it. smile

How did you know? Hmm
Well, truth be told, I pay attention to how the Justices rule in various cases, as much as I am able. My biggest concern was the CJ's willingness to go along with Citizen's United. I was less concerned with Roberts, actually, than Kennedy, as he does not like the Commerce Clause, at all. But, my prediction was precisely because of Roberts' concern about his legacy. Much like Rehnquist, he wants to be a consensus-builder, but has a hostile work environment (Scalia, Alito, Thomas)... so, on a momentous decision like this, I thought he would want to control the ruling, and vote in favor because otherwise his legacy would be of pure partisanship, but he would want to create as narrow a ground as possible for the decision, so had to write for himself. Rehnquist did that frequently, which is why there were frequently multiple patchwork decisions like this one during his tenure. It isn't rocket science, but it does require paying attention.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 02:11 PM

As I have written on other threads, Gore v Bush, is the decision which led me to politics. I am not familiar with any of Rehnquest's decisions at all.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 02:42 PM

I am not poor, but I've been so close to the edge, I can feel it from here. Unlike 42% people who file for bankruptcy (10 Leading Causes of Bankruptcy), health insurance is what has saved me from losing all of my assets. Over the last 3 years, my wife has had to have multiple surgeries to save her life, which were billed at close to $1 million. If I had to have tapped into retirement savings even for the last one, I would be broke and facing a bleak retirement if I could get there - but fortunately, we had insurance. Neither of us would be insurable at our age and health conditions - and we are in our 50s, and live a fairly healthy lifestyle in all other respects - if the insurance companies were allowed to exclude for pre-existing conditions. Fortunately, both of us have had government jobs that had non-exclusion health plans (for me it was Tricare). I think EVERYONE should have the same options I have, and that is what the ACA does.

Those that decry the ACA as "socialism" are either ignorant of how it works, incredibly stupid, purely partisan, or just plain dishonest. In many cases, all of the above. I am for practical, pragmatic solutions to our problems, and this was one of those. It is completely idiotic that a nation with our wealth and technical know-how has a third world health distribution network that leaves 15% of the population uninsured. The per-capita cost of healthcare in the United States is double (and in some cases triple) what it is in every other industrialized nation on Earth. The American System - TRMS. (See minute 3) That is inexcusable.

So, the President, taking a cue from Massachusetts, implemented a Republican, market-based solution to the problem. Massachusetts health care reform In MA 98% of the people are insured, and the vast majority like the system in place there. Clearly, it worked. So, it made sense to broaden its application.
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 02:58 PM

Originally Posted By: california rick
As I have written on other threads, Gore v Bush, is the decision which led me to politics. I am not familiar with any of Rehnquest's decisions at all.
If you look up Rehnquist decisions regarding search and seizure, workplace safety, human rights, Title 7, discrimination, and factor into that his odd choice of ornament for his robes, you'll know it all. Check a brief bio. Remember the gold braid was taken from a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta, sewn on by Mrs. Rehnquist, because he thought the Chief Justice should wear insignia of same, and you have more of it. Then read carefully his opinion in Bush v Gore, and a few of his other per curium decisions, and you'll know him, body and soul.

As for Roberts being the swing, I thought it was likely because the real money is the insurance industry in this decision. Therefore, as night follows day, Roberts followed the money. (Where have we heard that before???)
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
We all apologize for being such a burden to you.

Greger, you and the rest are not a burden to me.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 04:10 PM

Originally Posted By: california rick

Golem lives in Orange County, CA. Clearly he rarely leaves his south Orange County high-end, Pacific Ocean viewing, neighborhood.

Perhaps a trip to north Orange County (Santa Ana, Garden Grove, Westminster) might enlighten our new Ranter's perspective.


I've never lived in the south County. I lived in Garden Grove - which is next to Westminster - for 25 years. I worked in Santa Ana for over 5 years. I've live in the city of Orange - which is near Santa Ana - for 25 years. My neighborhood is middle class and multi-ethnic.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 04:31 PM

I did go overboard and engage in hyperbole last night. That's always a risk when I hang out with John Barlecorn.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
a nation with our wealth and technical know-how has a third world health distribution network that leaves 15% of the population uninsured.

Third world? Seriously? It looks like I'm not alone in the hyperbole department. I've seen third world countries on TV and in person. There's nothing third world about the USA - yet.

BTW, I've been poor too.
Posted by: keysersoze

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 05:04 PM

This plan will actually impact Massachusetts program in a positive way in that the penalties for not having insurance will substantially decrease. On the negative side one of what appears to be a multitude of new taxes will be seen and one is in our medical instrumentation business.

I have no problem subsidizing "the poor" but I do have a problem with subsidizing an alternate life style. Even in a robust economy I have had personal experience with folks who have played the system for generations. A few are relatives. Frustrating since it smears all in need.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 05:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Golem
I've never lived in the south County. I lived in Garden Grove - which is next to Westminster - for 25 years. I worked in Santa Ana for over 5 years. I've live in the city of Orange - which is near Santa Ana - for 25 years. My neighborhood is middle class and multi-ethnic.

If what you write above is true - how could you never have seen a poor person? Are you legally blind?
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 05:26 PM

'
Originally Posted By: keysersoze

I have no problem subsidizing "the poor" but I do have a problem with subsidizing an alternate life style.

Oh, dear! Still in the grip of Calvinism and the Protestant Ethic, eh?

I have no problem with either. Subsidizing those who do not want to work clears the over-crowded labour market and gives some room to those who have a talent for working and can do a good job of it.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 05:51 PM

Originally Posted By: keysersoze
I have no problem subsidizing "the poor" but I do have a problem with subsidizing an alternate life style. Even in a robust economy I have had personal experience with folks who have played the system for generations. A few are relatives. Frustrating since it smears all in need.


Originally Posted By: california rick

If what you write above is true - how could you never have seen a poor person? Are you legally blind?

My initial remarks on this thread are related more to the so-called poor in general than to health care. However, I do not look forward to waiting three hours to see the doctor because some deadbeats some of those less fortunate are too lazy to go to the store and buy band-aids and have brought their kids in for skinned knees.

I have indeed seen people who have less than me - but no third world types. The issue of the homeless is another problem.

Most of the poor people I've encountered are like those that keysersoze described. I've had bad experiences with them when I tried to help them and they did nothing to help themselves.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 07:32 PM

Oh, dear lord, John Roberts. What have you done? What have you done?
Colbert broken up about man crush for Chief Justice Roberts
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 08:06 PM

Golem~While you might only have come in contact with poor people whom are not very nice, I suggest that you work at a food bank or soup kitchen. I have, and to see the wretched plight of some very nice people breaks my heart. Try not to look upon them with a jaundiced eye, and reserve judgement, unless you have walked in their shoes.
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: numan
'
Originally Posted By: keysersoze

I have no problem subsidizing "the poor" but I do have a problem with subsidizing an alternate life style.

Oh, dear! Still in the grip of Calvinism and the Protestant Ethic, eh?

I have no problem with either. Subsidizing those who do not want to work clears the over-crowded labour market and gives some room to those who have a talent for working and can do a good job of it.


I think that that is a very good outlook.
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: rporter314
i don;t think we have seen the last of it

The Rethuglicans will whine and bitch and moan all summer long - but ultimately, this law has its bases in Romneycare. The Rethuglicans can't run nor hide from that fact.


And I think that it's hilarious that the first thing Romney says he'll do if he's elected President, will be to repeal this law! But I doubt that will happen.
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 08:28 PM

'
I am sure you are right, Scoutgal --- though no doubt there would be to-ing and fro-ing in Congress, and considerable Noh theater!!

[Sorry! I couldn't resist the pun!] · · wink
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 11:52 PM

Quote:
opposition to the ACA will drop below 50% before the Summer is over

interesting but i don't think so

listening to right wing talk radio this morning had me believing this may be the one issue which solidifies the extremists

whereas the economy has not been star studded it has been better than was left by the previous administration. When the candidates trade punches there is no way Romney can say it is a disaster, he can only say it could have been better. Well in Texas if frogs had wings and you know the rest. And as the economy should probably be the main issue, it is not the best issue. You can't fire up the base on it could be better, but you can if you say ACA is so intrusive that now government has the ability to manage a persons life ... now with that you can fire up the ignorant. Death panels on the way and the SC is in the pocket of the liberals ... the end is near.

o and the way right wing media presents ACA is to mischaracterize it so even a reasonable person would be hesitant to think this could be a good thing. The primary focus of elrushbo today was ACA is an overreach of federal government instead of portraying it for what it was intended to be, a dual purpose machine to both reduce the deficit and cover more people with insurance covered health care i.e. curb the rising costs.

anyway i'll be watching to see how right wing media handles this issue ... i see nothing good happening
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/29/12 11:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: rporter314
i don;t think we have seen the last of it

The Rethuglicans will whine and bitch and moan all summer long - but ultimately, this law has its bases in Romneycare. The Rethuglicans can't run nor hide from that fact.


And I think that it's hilarious that the first thing Romney says he'll do if he's elected President, will be to repeal this law! But I doubt that will happen.

Jon Stewart pulled quotes of what Romney says he would do when elected -- and it is exactly what this law provides except the mandate. So how would he pay for it?
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
Golem~While you might only have come in contact with poor people whom are not very nice, I suggest that you work at a food bank or soup kitchen. I have, and to see the wretched plight of some very nice people breaks my heart. Try not to look upon them with a jaundiced eye, and reserve judgement, unless you have walked in their shoes.

Scoutgal, if I ever ran across such people as you describe, I would not look upon them with a jaundiced eye.

I have nothing but sympathy for those who are poor because of something out of their control.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 12:18 AM

Originally Posted By: california rick
Maybe your objection is that you're gonna have to pay more taxes so that someone "poor" can have health insurance.

Too bad. Now go be a good patriot and pay your health insurance tax bill.

I've never understood those who say, "Gee. I hope the government raises out taxes." For those who are so anxious to pay more taxes, I believe it's possible for them to overpay their taxes. Problem solved.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 12:23 AM

Remember that this was deemed a tax. That means it can be repealed.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 12:37 AM

Yes, and Candidate Romney has promised that he will repeal it his first day in office.
All he has to do is beat Obama, maintain a majority in the house, and take enough seats in the senate for a majority vote.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: california rick
Rethuglicans

Most Republicans are anything but thugs and the Democrats certainly have their own share of thugs.

I've found most Republicans and most Democrats that I've met to be good people - the difference being that Republicans live in the real world.

But I must say that I like what P. J. O'Rourke said:

I have only one firm belief about the American political system, and that is this: God is a Republican and Santa Claus is a Democrat.

God is an elderly or, at any rate, middle aged male, a stern fellow, patriarchal rather than paternal and a great believer in rules and regulations. He holds men accountable for their actions. He has little apparent concern for the material well being of the disadvantaged. He is politically connected, socially powerful and holds the mortgage on literally everything in the world. God is difficult. God is unsentimental. It is very hard to get into God's heavenly country club.

Santa Claus is another matter. He's cute. He's nonthreatening. He's always cheerful. And he loves animals. He may know who's been naughty and who's been nice, but he never does anything about it. He gives everyone everything they want without the thought of quid pro quo. He works hard for charities, and he's famously generous to the poor. Santa Claus is preferable to God in every way but one: There is no such thing as Santa Claus.


I also like the Republican version of Two Cows:

You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So?
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Golem
Originally Posted By: california rick
Maybe your objection is that you're gonna have to pay more taxes so that someone "poor" can have health insurance.

Too bad. Now go be a good patriot and pay your health insurance tax bill.

I've never understood those who say, "Gee. I hope the government raises out taxes." For those who are so anxious to pay more taxes, I believe it's possible for them to overpay their taxes. Problem solved.
I don't know of anyone who wants to pay more taxes just to be paying more. But many of us want a certain level of convenience and security in life that we are will to pay for it. For better or worse, the system of government our founders created made it so that the majority had certain powers over the minority.

You and I will probably agree more than disagree about where that line should be drawn on any given issue. But it is a reality that taxes cannot be voluntary.

Let us not pretend that a disagreement in where that line should be drawn is anything more than a difference of opinion.
Posted by: Golem

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 03:41 AM

Phil, paying taxes cannot be voluntary. But over-payment of taxes certainly is. grin
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 03:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Golem
Phil, paying taxes cannot be voluntary. But over-payment of taxes certainly is. grin

My point exactly.

You and I just disagree on what we want government to do.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
As for Roberts being the swing, I thought it was likely because the real money is the insurance industry in this decision. Therefore, as night follows day, Roberts followed the money. (Where have we heard that before???)

You know, I've been thinking the very same. Justice Roberts would be consistent in his love-affair with corporate dollars.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
And I think that it's hilarious that the first thing Romney says he'll do if he's elected President, will be to repeal this law! But I doubt that will happen.

Fear not. The words president and Romney will never be uttered in the same sentence. smile

Mr. Romney is having a good fantacy about ALL of things he's going to do when he becomes "president" on his "first day":
  • Repeal ACA
  • Introduce The American Competitiveness Act
  • Introduce The Open Markets Act
  • Introduce An Order to Boost Domestic Energy Production
Guess Mr. Romney's inaugural ball will be pretty boring with no booze or dancing. Guy needs something to do... coffee
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 01:24 PM

Quote:
God is a Republican and Santa Claus is a Democrat.

Yet Romney has said he will keep all the good parts of ACA but eliminate the tax to pay for it. ACA was modeled after Romney own plan in Massachusetts.
Tax cuts for the very wealthy, subsides for industries which don't need them, does god reserve his gifts only for the wealthy?
I'm fine with however many cows you have. But keep your bullshit on your side of the fence.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 01:29 PM

Funny that Mr. Romney can't run on his signature piece of legislation while Governor because of his insistence of using an Etch-A-Sketch® position - to erase and start all over - a position he's chosen to take as a presidential candidate.
Posted by: Ma_Republican

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 02:33 PM

Quote:
“I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”


Let us hope that the 5 enemies of America who have created the probability of an American dictatorship be subjected to the harshest penalties allowed under the law. If they had any honor at all, they would save the country the money and time and perform those penalties upon themselves.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 02:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Get ready for the stirring up of the hicks from the right. Ma?


VIOLENT REVOLUTION

What just was blessed by the SCOTUS was the creation of an all powerful federal government. The only solution is overthrow and replacement.


I always tell folks who scream for violent revolution that they automatically make themselves into targets.

Tim, do you intend to blow up buildings or attack liberals, or both?
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Quote:
“I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”


Let us hope that the 5 enemies of America who have created the probability of an American dictatorship be subjected to the harshest penalties allowed under the law. If they had any honor at all, they would save the country the money and time and perform those penalties upon themselves.


The only ones that seem to be enemies of the US Constitution are those that cry for violent overthrow of the legal process, because they are like toddlers throwing a tantrum on steroids since they didn't get their way. The SCOTUS has done the job that they were appointed to do. Judge whether or not something is Constitutionally legal. So those who disagree need to put on their Big Girl and Big Boy panties and live within the law. If you want to change this, get it done through Congress-not through violence.
Posted by: Sandune

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 03:06 PM

There will be no revolution Jeff, because we both know that none if us has the time nor patience to plan successfully for our retirerment including health insurance. Only the big corporations can give us health insurance and they are closing up one at a time.

Many of us chose to pay off our homes, and then borrow on them during emergencies. It worked for me.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 03:50 PM

There was much that you said that I agree with, Golem, except for that part about Republicans living in the real world. Apparently, you haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years or so. Romney is a prime example of a Republican leader who has never lived in the real world, so doesn't understand it. And the GOP has pursued unreal policies since Reagan was President. I'd like a recitation of "real world" solutions that Republicans have pursued since Obama was elected - seriously. THAT could be an interesting - if short - discussion.

I used to believe that our elected leaders were generally and genuinely interested in the welfare of the nation, but then, I used to believe in Santa Claus, too.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 03:59 PM

Jeeze Ma,
Wouldn't the ACA allow you to start your own business now without having to worry about the astronomical cost of a health plan for you and yours. One would think that this might be an option for many more Americans including yourself.
My guess is instead there will be a bashing of the teeth and foaming of the mouth (as witnessed on yesterday's conservative propaganda radio) and they only option left is to get a majority in senate and congress before the mouth breathers start to realize the benefits, if any, coming from ACA.
Federal over reach, jack booted thugs on the horizon, the darker skinned hordes swamping the benefit boat is my guess for how the plutocrat or machine will play it from here till November.
Gotta kill it before anyone has had a taste.
Posted by: Ken Condon

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 05:35 PM

ROTFMOL
Some of this must be BS…but maybe not:
Quote:
People Who Say They're Moving To Canada Because Of ObamaCare

Link
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 05:49 PM

Shouldn't they be fleeing to the opposite border for their free market health industry?
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 06:05 PM

So much for Republicans and "reality" AHAHAHAHA

Look out, Numan, here they come!
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Ken Condon

Quote:
People Who Say They're Moving To Canada Because Of ObamaCare
Link

Quote:

I'm moving to Canada, the United States is entirely too socialist.

· · · ROTFMOL
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 06:44 PM

'
Originally Posted By: Greger

Look out, Numan, here they come!

I'm not worried. The only Americans who would actually move to Canada are the sensible ones -- and there are so few of them ....
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 06:53 PM

'
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Quote:
“I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”

Huh? Is he coming after me? I am an enemy of the American Constitution. · ·

I am not worried. First, I will lead him astray in the trackless Canadian wilderness ; then, when he is lost and starving and weak · · ·
· · ·

No, just joking, honest !
That's actually George W. Bush! · · wink
Posted by: Ardy

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 06:59 PM

To the extent the american health care system was a "system"... the underlying structures of the "system are rapidly fading.

The idea was that employers would provide health care. That idea was from a time when people could more or less count upon working someplace for the rest of their life... retire and get a pension with medical coverage.

There is no real argument that the above sort of arrangement is becoming less common... really an unrealistic expectation for any young person today.

Once we assume realistic future conditions, it is not at all clear how the current employer based system will remain viable.

Even with these factors just taking hold, it is clear that the rate of medically uninsured is trending higher... with no obvious reason why that trend would reverse.

As the labor market becomes more international... USA companies with domestic employees who receive employer health care are non-competitive with international workers who do not get this benefit. USA companies that do not provide health care are more competitive than companies that do provide heal insurance.

As far as I can see there are no positive trends in the direction the current system is moving.

The "Big IDEA" that republican propose as a solution is increased competition. Aside from the fact that this idea does not even address the above problems... it is also hard to see how increased competition will lower costs. Have we not had competition in the medical system for the last 50 years? And really, who goes price shopping when it comes time to do a medical procedure? Who calls around to arrange the lowest cost heart transplant? Which Doctor advertises himself as the lowest cost provider in the community? When you are sick, are you really out there price shopping... for yourself, or your loved ones?

This notion that competition will lower prices seems just loony to me. It seems to me that the republicans have given less thought to this idea than they gave to post-invasion planning for Iraq.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 07:14 PM

Then there is the issue of increased choice for insurance coverage.

It seems obvious that less choice would be a bad thing. That was not my experience when trying to help my mother select a drug coverage plan. There seemed like an infinite number of choices... difficult for a younger person to evaluate... totally impossible for an elderly medical insurance shopper.

I also tried to help my wife select coverage from the options offered by her employer. Once again the choices were min boggling and near impossible to evaluate which combination of different imponderable variables and cost would be the best for her in the context of unknown health issues that she might encounter.

I have to wonder if there is a great demand in the population for yet more insurance options? I now have a good HMO.... and am frankly delighted to have fewer options.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 07:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
ROTFMOL
Some of this must be BS…but maybe not:
Quote:
People Who Say They're Moving To Canada Because Of ObamaCare

Link

Republicans have never let pesky facts get in their way... dunce
Posted by: Chuck Howard

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 07:36 PM

And don't forget that Republicans live "in the real world."
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Chuck Howard
And don't forget that Republicans live "in the real world."

Where are the TEA Party members? Where's their angst? Never mind. They've been bought and paid-for by lobbyist - they are now part of the systemic problem in DC. Didn't take long to turn them, now did it?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 08:16 PM

Oh, there will be plenty of "TEA Party" angst, because it is not fact or reality based. I wish it were possible to have a reasonable discussion with any of them about what the ACA is really about, but the frothing at the mouth really turns me off and tends to block their ears. I actually wrote a script about what the "talking heads" would say... and I saw on Daily Show last night that they have already used it - Daily Show, June 28 (minute 7) - before the end of the day, FOX and its friends in Congress were already bleating "tax increase!" And it didn't take long for Romney to say he would repeal it, and replace it.... with.. what... is... already.. in it.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 08:29 PM

What do Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom have in common? They all have better healthcare delivery systems and pay 1/3 to 1/2 as much for that service as the United States - How the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally, 2010 Update
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 08:30 PM

Quote:
The "Big IDEA" that republican propose as a solution is increased competition ... republicans have given less thought to this idea

yeah i have been thinking the same way for some time

i like your take on true competitiveness of health care market itself but my take has been that the republicans are only concerned with insurance costs as if they influence and curb health care cost drivers ... i think they have it backwards for obvious reasons

they actually don;t have to "think" about it ... it is a simple ideological response i.e. free market good, everything else bad

if you or anyone else should get a handle on their position i would appreciate a heads up
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 09:16 PM

Quote:
free market good, everything else bad
The majority of Fox News Zombies, which are the majority of Republican voters, probably have little to no concept of what a "free market" is to begin with.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 09:42 PM

I've noticed, too, Greger, the lack of basic economics understanding of TEA Partisans (and other libertarian outlets). A "free market" can only remain free so long as it is regulated. What is often misstated (usually on purpose), is that regulation kills markets, although that has never been true, historically. The deliberate distortion is inserted by conflation of market procedures and market content. Try this experiment sometime: ask a TEA Partisan if he uses checks or electronic transfers to pay his/her bills. Of course they do. Now consider what would happen if there was no process to regulate how those transactions were performed. That is precisely what they are arguing for, and they don't understand it. The market for what they pay for with checks is not affected by regulation of the transactions, but the procedure is what makes the transaction possible.
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 09:46 PM

Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Lillibet
As for Roberts being the swing, I thought it was likely because the real money is the insurance industry in this decision. Therefore, as night follows day, Roberts followed the money. (Where have we heard that before???)

You know, I've been thinking the very same. Justice Roberts would be consistent in his love-affair with corporate dollars.
If you think the insurance industry is going to walk away from all these dollars they're now getting for insuring everyone, you've likely got another think coming.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 11:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Lillibet
As for Roberts being the swing, I thought it was likely because the real money is the insurance industry in this decision. Therefore, as night follows day, Roberts followed the money. (Where have we heard that before???)

You know, I've been thinking the very same. Justice Roberts would be consistent in his love-affair with corporate dollars.
If you think the insurance industry is going to walk away from all these dollars they're now getting for insuring everyone, you've likely got another think coming.

Why else would Karen Ignani be for the mandate?
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 06/30/12 11:35 PM

Whatever Robert's reason, I'm just glad he chose to rule in favor of the ACA. Liberals don't win very many political victories and those few we do win are hard fought and usually imperfect.
Posted by: itstarted

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 01:13 AM

For all of the discussion here, on TV, and the printed media...
A simple question:

Does anyone know the Who, What, Why, How and When of the Program?

Who pays? Who doesn't pay?
When does it begin?
Who pays and when?
...Federal Government
...State Government
...Employer
...Employee
...Indigent
Insurers... In State? Out of state?
Immigrants?
Pay for young people? or Free?
Tax for not signing up?
Mandatory Hospital Admissions? Who pays.
How Much will plans cost? More, Less?
Self employed costs?
Unemployed?
Seniors w/o medicare
What is Phase in period?
Prisoners?
Veterans?
Rehab Programs
What tests?
Physician record compliance?
Accreditation
Indian and special laws.
Chiropractors/Acupuncture/Homeopathy/Yoga/Religious beliefs?
Home Health Care
Eligibility for low/no income payments
Prescription Drug rules
Wellness test limits?

This list can go on forever.
I don't believe that anyone really knows what they are talking about.

Rather strange to see so much ado about constitutionality when the lawmakers themselves don't have a very good idea about what the program plans to do.

Wonderful to have millions of experts to discuss a subject thay don't understand in the first place.

Am I the only one who doesn't know the answers to the questions?
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 01:26 AM

Itstarted, this is a link to the ACA. Everything you want to know is there.

Link to the affordable care act.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 01:31 AM

Here is a link to a program that shows its schedule.
ACA Schedule
Posted by: olyve

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 01:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Lillibet
As for Roberts being the swing, I thought it was likely because the real money is the insurance industry in this decision. Therefore, as night follows day, Roberts followed the money. (Where have we heard that before???)

You know, I've been thinking the very same. Justice Roberts would be consistent in his love-affair with corporate dollars.
If you think the insurance industry is going to walk away from all these dollars they're now getting for insuring everyone, you've likely got another think coming.

Insurances companies now have standards they HAVE TO follow like they haven't had in a while now. No more pre existing conditions (meaning they have to pay). Coverage of preventive care tests (they have to fully pay for).
No more whole departments dedicated to figuring out way to refuse to pay claims.
THEY HAVE TO PAY for the health costs that you have been paying premiums on for so long.
Yes they'll cover more people but now it's got to be affordable (struggling people will get tax credits) and they will have to pay oh so much more in health care costs then they have been doing.
They have standards now that they have to follow.

I'm in my 60s. Suddenly I can go get a mammogram, blood tests, a pap smear.
For no cost to me (beyond my premium). My insurance company will pay for it.
Oh. And if I get cancer, they can't cancel me.
Same with a heart attack.

Maybe it's a wet dream for them. I dunno.
But I damn well know it is for me.
I've paid a lot of money over time and gotten almost nothing to show for it.

Yes single payer is still what I think would be better but this was a giant step for a country that has become really reluctant to take care of it's own.

I think I believe Justice Roberts knew that and didn't want to be judged 100 years from now for being stupid and partisan.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Get ready for the stirring up of the hicks from the right. Ma?


VIOLENT REVOLUTION

What just was blessed by the SCOTUS was the creation of an all powerful federal government. The only solution is overthrow and replacement.

Ma, only Republicans are threatening the violent overthrow of the government. That is the very definition of tyrany.
Former Michigan Republican Party spokes...held (updated)
Teaparty Leader threatens insurrection against Obamacare
Elections have consequences. The appropriate reaction to those consequences is the ballot box not the violent overthrow of a government.
Posted by: Phil Hoskins

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 05:08 AM

MaR, you have got to be kidding. YOU? Violent revolution? ROTFMOL

Pardon me, but I really can't see you in violent anything and certainly not what it takes for a violent revolution. Thankfully.

And all this over a tax? Oh man, you are hilarious.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 12:43 PM

And not just ANY tax, but a tax that he doesn't have to pay since he already has health insurance! ROTFMOL
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 12:59 PM

Quote:
no cost to me

i think this is one of the sticking points for conservatives

they leave out the rest of your sentence ... it is free in the sense you have already paid for it, so at time of service there is no charge

or in another way as you have pointed out ... previously you had to pay for it as it was not covered ... so now you dont have to "pay" for it as uncovered and so can be viewed from one perspective as "free"

and i guess i will throw in tax credits for those who can't afford premiums
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 01:51 PM

i have been confused with conservative media over the largest tax increase ever, largest tax increase on middle class citizens etc. Is it hyperbolic as is their nature to be or is there any factual basis for their claim?

Obamacare is . . . the largest tax increase in the history of the world

i don;t see any middle class being taxed and of course it is not largest tax increase
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 04:04 PM

You don't see it rp, because you are stubbornly wedded to facts. You need to view the world through red-colored lenses to appreciate the conservative viewpoint. You see, red filters out that pesky reality stuff, and leaves only the secret messages. The largest tax increase belongs to Ronald Reagan, but we can't mention that to a Republican. Reagan, you see, would then clearly be a confiscatory socialist, and that directly contradicts his posthumous sainthood status. Marvelous things those red-colored glasses.
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 04:52 PM

Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 05:37 PM

'
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins

MaR, you have got to be kidding. YOU? Violent revolution? ROTFMOL

I think living in Massachusetts is really starting to get to MaR. · · smile

Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Pardon me, but I really can't see you in violent anything and certainly not what it takes for a violent revolution. Thankfully.

And all this over a tax? Oh man, you are hilarious.

Perhaps he wants to take all the health insurance cards and dump them in Boston Harbour.

But I agree with you, Phil. Violent revolution? All over some piddling little tax? No one who was sane would ever do that!! · ·
Posted by: itstarted

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 05:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax
Itstarted, this is a link to the ACA. Everything you want to know is there.

Link to the affordable care act.

Yeah... the link was there already, and I of course saw that.
Did you read it?
Can you answer the questions?
Can anyone?

What's the meaning of life? ROTFMOL Wiki...

Did you read it all?

Better still... How many here can answer the questions?...
Simple questions, like... what will I pay? When? How? What will it cover?

Absolutely amazing to me that the entire country can be so up in arms, about a program they don't understand... and couldn't explain if they had to.

Tell me, anyone... don't you feel a little foolish writing about a subject that is so opaque to the average citizen?

Did anyone here take the time to find out that high salaried persons who retire early, can expect annual health care help of up to $90,000/yr to cover the period between their early retirement date, and the time when they will be eligible for medicare?
Quote:
The Affordable Care Act creates a new program called the Early Retiree Reinsurance Program to help address this challenge that employers and older employees are facing. The Early Retiree Reinsurance Program provides $5 billion in financial assistance to employers and unions to help them maintain coverage for early retirees age 55 and older who are not yet eligible for Medicare.

Businesses, other employers, and unions that are accepted into the program will receive reimbursement for medical claims for early retirees and their spouses, surviving spouses, and dependents. Savings can be used to reduce employer health care costs, provide premium relief to workers and families, or both. Applicants who are approved into the program receive reinsurance for the claims of high-cost retirees and their families (80 percent of the costs from $15,000 to $90,000). The program ends on January 1, 2014 when State health insurance Exchanges are up and running.

From Illinois Plan... subsidized by ACA.

And that was just a tiny part of one state's offshoot to the 2500 page bill.
Posted by: Ma_Republican

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 05:43 PM

[post deleted as an attack on another poster}
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
No, all of this over the blessing of 5 enemies of America that allows Congress to impose any requirement on the people of the United States, without the need to justify it. If the government wants Americans to underwrite GM, again, they can impose a tax on America at their will. If they want America to support an indipendant army to invade, say, Mexico, they can impose a tax. If they want America to support anything at all, they can impose a tax to support it.

Ma, the fact that you don't like what they decided doesn't make them enemies of America. The court determined that the law was Constitutional. Get over it. Such a law was Justified because there are more than thirty million Americans who cannot get health care, which harms our ability to compete against all those nations that have universal health care. Health Insurance companies, in order to save money, took coverage from children and sick customers so their multi-millionaire investors and CEO's could buy a better yacht, which causes grave harm to millions of citizens leading to bankruptcies and untimely death. The justification was the need of citizens. Actually, the constitution says that the government can impose a tax at their will according to Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution. SCOTUS did not make that up. You can thank Madison and others. Don't like it, win elections.
Calling for people to take up arms against their legal government for the use of its lawful powers and commit murder and violence is called sedition. And if it involves making war upon the legal government of the United States, it is covered under Section 3 of the Constitution. Those who do those things are not patriots, they're just common household thugs with delusions of grandeur.
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 06:16 PM

MA~You have stated many times that self-interest is your main goal. If the government offers you free money, then you will take it, even if you think it's wrong. So when the benefits of AHCA come to fruition, I think we'll be seeing you to be one of the first in line to collect, whether it's through your employer, or standing in a government queue. You should have been a politician. LOL

BTW-I am getting a real kick reading all of your posts here-the hyperbolic rhetoric is hilarious! Especially about the part of whenever anyone disagrees with your POV, they are "enemies of America"! I suppose that the framers of the Constitution are now enemies, since they allowed free speech and provided the basis for the SCOTUS decision. ROTFMOL
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 06:33 PM

Quote:
the World Trade Towers can be rebuilt, so can the US Cole, but this does damage to America as an entity. It is unforgivable.
Can those 3000 lives lost in the 9/11 attacks be gotten back? The lives lost on the US Cole? Can the lives of all the soldiers and civilians lost in that ridiculous war your Party started in Iraq be somehow rebuilt?
Increasing taxes to insure those who cannot afford it will save lives. Not just the lives of the "layabouts" but the lives of working single parents, college students who can remain a few more years on their parents policies. It helps small businesses insure their employees.
All this phony righteousness about damaging the US as an entity is nonsense. But I've come to expect no less from the Lost Party. Every time you don't get your way it's the end of America as we know it. Maybe you should quit being such crybabies.
If Romney wins he will repeal this.
If Romney wins I'll be dissapointed but neither surprised nor angry.
If Obama wins the coming election the anger from the Right is going to be monumental.
You folks should really grow up a little bit.
Posted by: Chuck Howard

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/01/12 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
There are certain people who are too stupid to see the potential damange this ruling creates, then there are people who do not care because this allows then to legally steal money from people who actually, you know, WORK for a living...


This ruling means that those who have freeloaded off the system by obtaining free medical care will now have to pay their fair share. It's called personal responsibility. Apparently, that's a value that Republicans only give lip service to.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 08:48 AM

I get a real kick out of reading and hearing the hype from those who are defending the free-loader's right to game the system: People who could afford to buy health insurance, but instead shift the cost to everybody else when they get sick or injured are the moral equivalent of welfare frauds. These are the only people who will be paying the opt-out tax.

I recall that not long ago Republicans constantly accused Democrats of supporting moochers, but now that we have entered the Bizarro World the supposed "Champions of Individual Responsibility" have assumed the role themselves! What's next: A Republican bill to supply every unemployed unwed mother of 10 a Cadillac? Hmm
Posted by: Ma_Republican

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 01:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
[post deleted as an attack on another poster}


I insulted nobody. I did not do anything that should have resulted in deleting this post. Please repost, sometime the truth hurts.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 02:06 PM

I think that the right-wing doesn't want the reality of the health care crisis to be understood, or the details of the ACA, because it would eliminate a plethora of talking points. Make no mistake, this is an existential issue for the GOP. On numerous points they are fighting rear-guard actions to shore up their relevance, and solidify their positions. 2010 was largely a fluke, elections-wise, so they are making a series of tactical choices: attacking unions, purging voter rolls, gerrymandering districts, etc., all in an effort to hold off the inevitable decline of their political positions, and the demographic realities that are pushing them from the mainstage. The ACA, and in particular the Roberts ruling, leveled the field. Chief Justice Roberts is well aware that the conservative wing of the Court is out of control, but he is no centrist. He is looking to his legacy. There were poison pills galore in his opinion, however, so his finely-honed Republican instincts are still intact.
Posted by: Spag-hetti

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 02:17 PM

Quote:
...and Canter and Boehner are presenting their "plan" for heath care on July 11th.

Um...isn't it a little too late for that?



Help me here if I'm wrong. Canter and Boehner and all the other Republican congressmen were present and conscious when ACA was written, rewritten, and passed. Congress created the law that was passed up to President Obama to sign.

I mean, this isn't like Obama's decision to stop deporting children of aliens, etc. That one was all him.

The ACA was a product of Congress and agreed to by the President.

Where were Canter's and Boehner's great ideas for health care back then?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 02:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
I insulted nobody.
Sorry, Ma R, but this one had me laughing out loud. It is a rare post indeed that doesn't insult somebody, and of late, perhaps a majority of the audience. Some attacks are more direct, but some are so broad-brush just about everyone is insulted. I'd say I'm sorry I missed it, but that would probably not be true. smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 03:13 PM

As the ACA was crafted there were many concessions made, to Republicans, to insurance companies, and to pharmaceutical companies. Lobbyists as well as government had a hand in crafting the Bill. This explains why it is flawed.
Even those of us who support the ACA believe it is a work in progress.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 03:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
As the ACA was crafted there were many concessions made, to Republicans, to insurance companies, and to pharmaceutical companies. Lobbyists as well as government had a hand in crafting the Bill. This explains why it is flawed.
Even those of us who support the ACA believe it is a work in progress.

Bow
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 03:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Chuck Howard
This ruling means that those who have freeloaded off the system by obtaining free medical care will now have to pay their fair share. It's called personal responsibility. Apparently, that's a value that Republicans only give lip service to.

Among others: reign in government spending - yet spend like drunken sailors passing out tax relief for rich people.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 03:59 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I get a real kick out of reading and hearing the hype from those who are defending the free-loader's right to game the system: People who could afford to buy health insurance, but instead shift the cost to everybody else when they get sick or injured are the moral equivalent of welfare frauds. These are the only people who will be paying the opt-out tax.

I recall that not long ago Republicans constantly accused Democrats of supporting moochers, but now that we have entered the Bizarro World the supposed "Champions of Individual Responsibility" have assumed the role themselves! What's next: A Republican bill to supply every unemployed unwed mother of 10 a Cadillac? Hmm

Great post P-I-A! Bow
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 06:24 PM

ACA may be constitutional but it it's not reality. It's a long ways to 2014 and like It's points out, it's still a mystery to most. My guess is that it will shake and rattle out of the gate and every perceived flaw will be amped up. Any imperfection pounced on. Absent a good understanding of this legislation my guess is a lot of FUD from the right. It has always been their chosen tool.
Look no further than global warming.
Democrats gotta learn to start selling. Gotta start compelling.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 08:00 PM

Quote:
it is a work in progress

no reasonable person would consider it otherwise

now republicans/conservatives say it was washington which crafted the law i.e. democrats/liberals/socialists/communists.

any and all expansive bills would necessarily be flawed from the very nature of our legislative process, especially in the current atmosphere of the deep chasm separating political ideologies
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 08:03 PM

Over 50 provisions of the ACA have already gone into effect.
Lots more are coming. It's not necessary for dumbasses like me to read the bill and understand it. Others have done that for me and explained it.
Interactive Timeline Explains It All
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 08:05 PM

Quote:
Canter and Boehner and all the other Republican congressmen were present and conscious

i don't know about conscious but certainly they participated

their complaint the best i can figure is that the bill had more democratic input than being the conservative it should have been ... in other words the democrats should have surrendered and became conservatives and wrote the bill on one page just as the koch bros dictated ... i guess if the democrats were conservatives they would be republicans ... simply brilliant ... the best and the brightest?
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 08:08 PM

Quote:
It's not necessary ... to read the bill and understand it

you are correct ... if you listen to elrushbo, hannity, beck etc interpretations, you would know what the law really entails and you too would be clamoring for repeal

o you mean what is really in the law ... i am sorry disregard talk radio ... carry on
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 11:06 PM

He who doesn't advertise dies. If the GOP zeitgeist for the last 35 years has been that our government is incompetent to do anything except where it concerns killing other nationalities then I think it's safe to assume that any challenge to that notion will have to be met with swift and hard retaliation. Let's put aside rationalism and pragmatism. Those two animals have been taken out behind the political barn and shot quite awhile ago.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/02/12 11:30 PM

Democrats have stiffened their vestigal spines ever so slightly in dealing with the Alpha Republican attack dogs. Common sense may yet win out. If not then demographics will eventually win out because conservatives whether Neo or Paleo will never change their spots or stripes or whatever it is that stubborn fools wont change even to save their ratty hides.
Posted by: olyve

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 01:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Over 50 provisions of the ACA have already gone into effect.
Lots more are coming. It's not necessary for dumbasses like me to read the bill and understand it. Others have done that for me and explained it.
Interactive Timeline Explains It All

Thank you ever so much, Greger. I wish some (most of Americans) would read some of the links just posted here in this thread.
It is beyond belief the lack of understanding.
What's not to understand? It's all over the internet. It's here. It's everywhere.

Health Reform Quiz- Kaiser
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 01:05 AM

Originally Posted By: olyve
What's not to understand? It's all over the internet. It's here. It's everywhere.

There are some who don't want to know - it will blow their talking point memo meme if they do.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 01:50 AM

Wow - I got all 10 questions right. I guess I am an expert.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 04:23 AM

Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 12:54 PM

anyone who can spell ACA as "ACA" and not as "Obamacare" is an expert
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 12:59 PM

i also better than 99.6% of population
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 01:43 PM

another of those provisions of the ACA comes due to day, and it is a bobm. Medical Loss Ration
Quote:
The Bomb Buried In Obamacare Explodes Today-Hallelujah!
That would be the provision of the law, called the medical loss ratio, that requires health insurance companies to spend 80% of the consumers’ premium dollars they collect—85% for large group insurers—on actual medical care rather than overhead, marketing expenses and profit. Failure on the part of insurers to meet this requirement will result in the insurers having to send their customers a rebate check representing the amount in which they underspend on actual medical care.

This is the true ‘bomb’ contained in Obamacare and the one item that will have more impact on the future of how medical care is paid for in this country than anything we’ve seen in quite some time. Indeed, it is this aspect of the law that represents the true ‘death panel’ found in Obamacare—but not one that is going to lead to the death of American consumers. Rather, the medical loss ratio will, ultimately, lead to the death of large parts of the private, for-profit health insurance industry.

Imagine, limiting the profit a priate corpoartion can make ripping consumers off for the benefit of CEO's and investors.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 02:30 PM

I imagine when thousands millions of people get refund checks in the mail.... between now and August 1st, because their insurance carrier overcharged them for health insurance under the new standard. That is part of the reason that I think the law will be perceived as more popular. I think an ad campaign featuring people who got checks in the mail is in order. Millions will receive refund checks from health insurance companies.

Quote:
Almost a third of people who bought their own insurance last year will get refunds averaging $127 under a provision of the new health care law, according to a new analysis of state data from the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit research group.
Insurance Refund: The Check Might Be in the Mail
Posted by: Chuck Howard

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 03:14 PM

This sounds like "wealth redistribution" to me. Nothing but rank socialism. And it interferes with our freedom to pay health insurance carriers what they have charged. And, and, and,...but what about our freedom???
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 03:15 PM

Another of those hidden bombs.

Health Care corporations can no longer cheat women to enrich themselves.
Here is a story form 2009 that talks about how much women are cheated by health care corporations.
Women pay up to 50% more for health insurance premiums
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 04:00 PM

as up to and including what chuck said

as mcconnell said insuring millions has nothing to do with health care coverage

the right will spin this as buying off, duping the unwashed masses of ignorant moderates and liberals while seeing it for what it is and then denying it

no one can win with these characters
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
no one can win with these characters
But everyone can win without them!
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: rporter314
no one can win with these characters
But everyone can win without them!


LOL
Posted by: numan

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 06:59 PM

'
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: rporter314
no one can win with these characters

But everyone can win without them!

Good rejoinder, NWP!! · · ThumbsUp
Posted by: jgw

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/03/12 10:52 PM

If Obama gets re-elected then, hopefully, he can get back a public health insurance option. Without that the insurance companies will continue to rule no matter what.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 06:29 AM

So I guess I shouldn't have pasted that Obamacare Lives! sticker on the back of my car. But then again, I live in Texas, it's so damn entertaining.
I should probably install a PA system!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 10:42 AM

Here they come!
Posted by: Chuck Howard

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 11:46 AM

Your link doesn't work.
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax
another of those provisions of the ACA comes due to day, and it is a bobm. Medical Loss Ration
Quote:
The Bomb Buried In Obamacare Explodes Today-Hallelujah!
That would be the provision of the law, called the medical loss ratio, that requires health insurance companies to spend 80% of the consumers’ premium dollars they collect—85% for large group insurers—on actual medical care rather than overhead, marketing expenses and profit. Failure on the part of insurers to meet this requirement will result in the insurers having to send their customers a rebate check representing the amount in which they underspend on actual medical care.

This is the true ‘bomb’ contained in Obamacare and the one item that will have more impact on the future of how medical care is paid for in this country than anything we’ve seen in quite some time. Indeed, it is this aspect of the law that represents the true ‘death panel’ found in Obamacare—but not one that is going to lead to the death of American consumers. Rather, the medical loss ratio will, ultimately, lead to the death of large parts of the private, for-profit health insurance industry.

Imagine, limiting the profit a priate corpoartion can make ripping consumers off for the benefit of CEO's and investors.
Ah, not quite so fast there. . . Insurance companies have already raised premiums to ensure that what before gave them 40 percent profit is now subsidized by increasing premiums to keep the dollars the same while lowering the percent of their profit to the allowed amount. Since the ACA was passed, my premiums went up 50%. Was there a connection to that limiting provision?

Of course there was. Insurance companies wrote the bill, and they'll not see a penny of lowered profit in real numbers when 2014 rolls around.

It's like law schools doubling the class sizes to admit the same number of men, while allowing women equal access to the courtroom as advocates.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 05:58 PM

I read Mr. Hennessey's Strategy to Undo ObamaCare, and I was struck by three things. First, his honest acknowledgement that
Quote:
"The pre-ObamaCare status quo is unsustainable and unacceptable."
... "Those Republicans who say they favor legislated guaranteed-issue and community-rating requirements but oppose the mandate will be forced to acknowledge that all three must go."
..."If the new CBO estimate concludes that repeal would increase the deficit, then those favoring repeal will just have to make more spending cuts."

Second, how deceptive and unrealistic his proposed "process" is... hiding the ball from the public until enough damage has been done, and then using that lever to force unpopular changes to Medicare and Medicaid (essentially dismantling them as well).
Quote:
"Once the individual mandate is repealed, these popular insurance changes cannot stand by themselves. Without the mandate, people have every incentive to save on premiums and not buy insurance until they fall ill."
"Top it all off with expanded contribution limits for health savings accounts, aggressive national medical liability reform, and structural Medicare and Medicaid reforms[.]

And finally, the most important acknowledgement of all:
Quote:
Step one is electing Mitt Romney as president, along with Republican House and Senate majorities. Without a Republican sweep, the law will remain in place.

What Mr. Hennessey has done is explain why it is so important that this not happen.
Posted by: olyve

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 06:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
Ah, not quite so fast there. . . Insurance companies have already raised premiums to ensure that what before gave them 40 percent profit is now subsidized by increasing premiums to keep the dollars the same while lowering the percent of their profit to the allowed amount. Since the ACA was passed, my premiums went up 50%. Was there a connection to that limiting provision?

Of course there was. Insurance companies wrote the bill, and they'll not see a penny of lowered profit in real numbers when 2014 rolls around.

According to the link that NWP posted (yesterday I think it was) and I had also read in the AARP newsletter, you should be getting some money back then.

Insurance Refund: The Check Might be in the Mail
Quote:
Under the federal law, insurance companies must spend at least 80 percent of the money they get from premiums on medical costs or quality improvements; the rest can go toward administrative costs and profits. However, if insurers set their premiums too high, then consumers are due either rebates in the form of checks or discounts off future premiums.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 06:50 PM

I agree with your reaction to mr. Hennessey's strategy NWP. I have always marvelled at the GOP's ability to make lemonade and sell it to the public.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 07:38 PM

They are not even making lemonade - what they are doing is marketing toxic sludge as lemonade, and fighting any labeling requirements as socialism.
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 07:39 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I agree with your reaction to mr. Hennessey's strategy NWP. I have always marvelled at the GOP's ability to make lemonade and sell it to the public.


Yeah, hiding the fact that they use pee(urine) for their base.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
They are not even making lemonade - what they are doing is marketing toxic sludge as lemonade, and fighting any labeling requirements as socialism.



You sir, have been on a roll lately!! The way you frame the truth doth provide me great mirth. Bow
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 08:05 PM

Why thank you, Rick. I wish I had your library of smilies... where do you get yhese from?
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Why thank you, Rick. I wish I had your library of smilies... where do you get yhese from?

Years of collecting, like finding fine truffles deep within the red ground clays of France.
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 08:57 PM

Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 09:09 PM

your cartoon points out comments i have wondered about for some time

if scott as ceo was ignorant of the fraud then why elect an incompetent or if he was complicit in fraud why elect a criminal?

the incompetency is also telling in the F&F case ... if scott is allowed to not know what his minions were doing why does holder have to know what agents in the field are doing?

anyway i wish the best for all the old folks in florida
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 10:48 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
your cartoon points out comments i have wondered about for some time

if scott as ceo was ignorant of the fraud then why elect an incompetent or if he was complicit in fraud why elect a criminal?

the incompetency is also telling in the F&F case ... if scott is allowed to not know what his minions were doing why does holder have to know what agents in the field are doing?


Exactly!

Quote:
anyway i wish the best for all the old folks in florida


Me too.
Posted by: Ozymanithrax

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/04/12 11:36 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
your cartoon points out comments i have wondered about for some time

if scott as ceo was ignorant of the fraud then why elect an incompetent or if he was complicit in fraud why elect a criminal?

the incompetency is also telling in the F&F case ... if scott is allowed to not know what his minions were doing why does holder have to know what agents in the field are doing?

anyway i wish the best for all the old folks in florida

Because they don't care. He made mony. He is a bussinessman. They drank the Kool Aid idea that people who run a bussiness are qualified to run a goverment.
Posted by: itstarted

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/05/12 04:02 AM

Did YOU know?
Posted by: Scoutgal

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/05/12 03:46 PM

Originally Posted By: itstarted


ThumbsUp
Posted by: Ted Remington

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/06/12 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
They are not even making lemonade - what they are doing is marketing toxic sludge as lemonade, and fighting any labeling requirements as socialism.


What I would like to know is why anyone would give Mr. Hennessy more than two minutes of reading time, since his major credential seems to be:

"Mr. Hennessey is a fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution. He served as director of the National Economic Council for President George W. Bush."

The same President Bush who brought you the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression. And the director of the National Economic Council that advised Bush is supposed to be a guru to whom we should all listen while bowing down respectfully? That's lemonade flavored Kool-Aid time.
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/07/12 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: olyve
Originally Posted By: Lillibet
Ah, not quite so fast there. . . Insurance companies have already raised premiums to ensure that what before gave them 40 percent profit is now subsidized by increasing premiums to keep the dollars the same while lowering the percent of their profit to the allowed amount. Since the ACA was passed, my premiums went up 50%. Was there a connection to that limiting provision?

Of course there was. Insurance companies wrote the bill, and they'll not see a penny of lowered profit in real numbers when 2014 rolls around.

According to the link that NWP posted (yesterday I think it was) and I had also read in the AARP newsletter, you should be getting some money back then.

Insurance Refund: The Check Might be in the Mail
Quote:
Under the federal law, insurance companies must spend at least 80 percent of the money they get from premiums on medical costs or quality improvements; the rest can go toward administrative costs and profits. However, if insurers set their premiums too high, then consumers are due either rebates in the form of checks or discounts off future premiums.
If, and that's a big if, I get a check, I hope it for more than the $3833 my insurance went up this last year. Or, more than the $2021 it went up two years ago. Or, that it's more than the $1835.87 it went up three years ago.

I fear I'll get a check for $127 and an attaboy.
Posted by: Ted Remington

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/07/12 11:20 PM

Good God! What kind of insurance do you have? Are there no alternatives available to you?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/08/12 12:01 PM

Lillibet,
You make the best point. The medical industry has far outpaced the rest of the industrial sectors with rising costs. My wife and I pay for our own high deductible policies and watch the rates rise like geese heading north every spring. I'm still not sold on how the ACA is going to put the affordability back in the health care industry. How does the ACA thwart the efforts of all the participants ( insurance policy peddlars, hospital shareholders, big pharma, etc. ) from living on the water?
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/08/12 12:42 PM

i think there is a big misunderstanding of ACA regarding health care costs

ACA can not make the costs stop rising ... it can not reduce the current costs

Ultimately ACA is meant to bend the cost curve, so instead of $3000/yr increase one would get a $1500/yr increase as an example

It does this several ways among which a board of medical practitioners can help find the most efficacious procedures which cost less, increase amount of money actually spent on health care versus administrative costs, using a "mandate" to increase pool of healthy people, by using competitive exchanges for insurance, etc

I think this is only mildly useful as any simple analysis would reveal that none of this directly addresses heath care cost drivers ... here is an analogy:
suppose oil companies produced gasoline which emitted X amount of noxious fumes when burned ... we apply a scrubbing system which reduces the fumes emitted ... the oil companies produce a gasoline which now emits X+Y fumes ... our scrubber is still only reducing the amount from X ... and etc

The point you see is without attacking the cost drivers all we do is forestall the inevitable.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/08/12 01:49 PM

So was calling it the "Affordable Care Act" being ironic?
If it only slows down the pace to which we hit the wall of unaffordability for the health industry then perhaps it would have been better to have never passed it at all.
If fewer and fewer people are able to finances the industries the faster it will hit the wall and fewer people will swallow the hash of socialism, etc..
I guess I would rather be killed quickly rather than the slow financial asphyxiation by those two snakes.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/08/12 02:23 PM

I think despite weaknesses in the ACA it will make health care more affordable and reduce the number of uninsured Americans as Medicaid and Medicare are expanded and as employers are given tax breaks(and mandates) for insuring employees. Some have seen recent increases in premiums and some will receive rebates.
Some of you self employed folks are pretty much gonna get the dirty end of the stick on this deal. I was self employed for over 25 years. It comes with a certain amount of freedom that you cannot get as an employee.
As often as not I found that freedom to be like a ball and chain.
No paid holidays, no sick days, no vacations, no retirement.
No benefits at all and certainly...

No Insurance.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/08/12 03:19 PM

the alternative was to pass a bill in which nothing was done and calling it Health Care for the Rich and Famous or the rest of Americans are fracked

I think we as Americans have been assaulted in recent years with a mind numbing array of social issues all of which have not been adequately resolved. Perhaps social issues never will be, but an attempt to at least have the conversation is necessary for Americans to move on. As long as Americans maintain the ever deepening schism separating our political thinking we will not be able to settle these issues.

My analogy: our country has a flesh eating bacteria gnawing away at our heart and soul. The conservative response is to allow the free markets resolve the problem. The liberal response, while not as drastic as some may think, is to tentatively amputate.

Don't give up hope. I think we have finally started this discussion in earnest.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/08/12 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
i think there is a big misunderstanding of ACA regarding health care costs

ACA can not make the costs stop rising ... it can not reduce the current costs

Ultimately ACA is meant to bend the cost curve,...

The point you see is without attacking the cost drivers all we do is forestall the inevitable.

I have to disagree, rp. While it primarily bends the cost curve, it also will ultimately reduce costs for most (while increasing for some, it is true). I am going to start a wonky post about this, but this is the gist of how costs will be reduced, in 3 1/2 parts: 1st, it increases the pool by bringing an additional 30 million people into the pool (the half is that it also pays some of those people to jump into the pool); 2nd, it will (eventually) move many of those people from seeking expensive emergency room care to more preventative care, which is far cheaper; and third, it maximizes the amount of overhead that insurance carriers add to the costs of people in the pool. Many people (not a majority, but millions) will get refunds shortly (by August) for that last reason. These three mechanisms, by the way, work in tandem.
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/10/12 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
If, and that's a big if, I get a check, I hope it for more than the $3833 my insurance went up this last year. Or, more than the $2021 it went up two years ago. Or, that it's more than the $1835.87 it went up three years ago.

I fear I'll get a check for $127 and an attaboy.

Originally Posted By: Ted Remington
Good God! What kind of insurance do you have? Are there no alternatives available to you?
I have private insurance as the sole employee of my little one person firm. As such, when I turned one of those high numbers on the birthday lottery wheel, they dropped the ball into the 'raise it as high as you can' slot. I also have been misdiagnosed with cancer I didn't have, meaning the bones that should have been set weren't, which now means I have a 'preexisting condition' and can only get insurance for people with more money than Romney can afford.

As a result, that policy that was mega-affordable is now akin to buying the Hope Diamond on a monthly basis. Insurance is more than rent, food, and phone combined. Well, I don't buy food anymore, depending on the kindness of strangers and the local food pantry. Insurance pays for no prescriptions, but did arrange a price for pain medication that is only $487 per month,, until I get past the out of pocket per year hurdle, which is high. Very high indeed.

What happened was a combination of birthdays and anticipation of the ACA. In advance, insurance companies have been sticking it to the self employed. Have no fear, the insurance industry will come up with reasons to keep those rates, and will easily justify the numbers to maintain the low (gag) 20 percent profit margin.

So, I am stuck until the shoulder is surgically repaired, and that's getting to be almost an emergency because the pain is getting to the point that I can't stand it any more. I am so tired of pain, medicines, more pain, more medicine, and not having enough money coming in to take the time needed to recover from surgery I need but can't afford, especially if there is any part of it not covered by the insurance I can't afford. I don't even have enough money after rent and insurance to afford x-rays and a doctor visit.

So, now we have the ACA, which is anything but a truth in labeling law. It will be affordable for those that are in corporations that make enough to afford what the self employed increasingly cannot.
Posted by: Irked

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/10/12 07:47 PM

Supposedly, the ACA will institute a communistic exchange in your state that will allow individuals to purchase insurance at a group rate instead of as an individual. Ostensibly, this is to help people get affordable insurance but its real purpose is to take choices from individuals and profit from hard-working and maligned companies.
Posted by: Ted Remington

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/10/12 07:53 PM

That's abut the ugliest scenario I've heard in the health insurance field in years, Lillibet. My heart goes out to you.

The US had it in its grasp to make all of this go away with little of the trouble trial and trauma that has gripped our country for the past two or three years. All we had to do was open up the FEHB plan to all comers. If I read what you said correctly, your premiums have increased more than $7,500 per year in the last three years. I have no idea what it was before the increases, but if it was $2,500 then you would be spending around $10K on insurance!

If you had been allowed to enroll in the FEHBP your total premium would have been in the neighborhood of $6,000 per year for single person coverage in the HMO known as Illinois Humana CoverageFirst, which is just one of the Illinois HMO plans available under the FEHBP. To me HMOs are the gold standard, and there are quite a few available in Illinois, which means there is competition among them.

FEHBP has no restrictions on pre-existing conditions, so that would not have been a worry.

The premium I cited above was the equivalent of a self-employed premium, that is, the gross prior to any employer copay. The thing about employer copays, as everyone should know, is that they come out of the pocket of the employee in the form of lower wages, so the only way to make comparisons is to look at the gross premium cost.

The reality is that this approach would have cost the government exactly zero dollars. They would simply have been the conduit through which you reached the pool of insurance companies.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/10/12 08:26 PM

Hopefully, after the election, IF the Dems get elected they will revisit and adjust the existing law which, according to a host of folks was pretty badly written. Now, if they can also get a break even public option to compete with the for profit insurance companies.....

Gov, incidentally, has proven, with Medicare, that they can deliver healthcare for a LOT less than the insurance companies (it would be a LOT better if they could also get the fraud and abuse under control).
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/11/12 03:33 PM

The problem is that I do have a preexisting condition. That is, because the shoulder wasn't set, and no setting it is getting close to impossible, and because I take a lot of pain medication which costs the earth, I cannot qualify for new insurance until the shoulder is set.

And yes, I am paying something close to $10,000 per year. Actually, In fact, I am paying closer to $14,000 per year. Add $500 per month for medicine, and you have an idea of what I spend on medical issues alone. That monthly expenditure is based on what the pharmacy charges me for medicine that is covered, but only to the extent allowed by the company. So, the problem is that until the whole bill kicks in, I don't really qualify for any relief from the high rates that I am currently paying.

Too bad I did $105,000 of legal work last year and only was paid $3500. That's what we call in the biz complex litigation against firms with the ability to staff a case with 10 attorneys and I am just a solo keeping with the opposition, and the client claims he can't afford more. Like an idiot, I do patents and trademarks and our rules are different. We can't withdraw for non-payment after a certain point in the case without the judge approving it, and the judge said no.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/12/12 03:19 AM

and the f'n judge gets a 6 figure salary no matter how incompetent.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/12/12 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
and the f'n judge gets a 6 figure salary no matter how incompetent.

offtopic

Same could be said of Geitner and Bernanke. wink
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/12/12 12:59 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I am going to make a bold prediction -...I think that with the SCOTUS blessing, opposition to the ACA will drop below 50% before the Summer is over.

Well... Kaiser Health Tracking Poll: Early Reaction to Supreme Court Decision on the ACA
Quote:
This poll fielded following the Supreme Court’s decision upholding the heart of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) finds a majority of Americans (56 percent) now say they would like to see the law’s detractors stop their efforts to block its implementation and move on to other national problems.

Democrats overwhelmingly say opponents should move on to other issues (82 percent), as do half (51 percent) of independents and a quarter (26 percent) of Republicans. But, seven in ten Republicans (69 percent) say they want to see efforts to stop the law continue, a view shared by 41 percent of independents and 14 percent of Democrats.
I have found other polls with similar findings.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/12/12 03:24 PM

I think the polling opposition to ACA has been more to the mischaracterization that conservatives purvey than to the actually bill/law ... when polling questions refer to components of bill/law people were in favor

so while we, i think knew all along that the dems were i favor, now see current polling confirming the obvious, we can now see independents have climbed aboard, but for your prediction to have some meat i think another 30% of republican/conservatives against ACA will have to change their mind

just saying ... for the 50% prediction to be on mark
Posted by: Lillibet

Re: The ACA is Constitutional!!! - 07/14/12 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
and the f'n judge gets a 6 figure salary no matter how incompetent.
We try not to think about that particular "i" word in my field. If lawyers concentrated on it, the level of depression and despair would be way higher than it is admitted to be.

At the same time, I make the judge's work easy. He earns his six figures if he reads my brief and all the cases. When I write a brief, I generally weight the document with so many cases that are on my side, the judges tend to go my way, likely because their clerks just want to stop reading the 45-60 cited cases in a 25 page document.

As a result, I have been told by judges that I make their work easy. They have to go along with my position because there is simply not enough out there to allow a different opinion. I also tell clients that when they are seeking a result that the law simply will not allow, they have to take the case and go home. I don't go out and manufacture law to meet facts that are contrary to statute or case law.

For such work, I have received something around $2.28 per hour in the last year. Actually, it's less. But, like the "i" word, I just can't go there and keep my head from falling off in despair.

Now, if I could only get one of those bonus checks from an insurance exec. I could be living on easy street. My shoulder somehow dislocated or the fractures slipped around after a bus ride that proved there are not less than eight, wheel bending, axle breaking potholes on the road near my home that are mandatory to hit. There are another 15 or so that are optional. I guess it's more important to bail out banksters and fraudsters than to repair roads. We know that the legal system is failing because judge bribing has fallen off a lot. In Chicago, we also know this isn't an election year because the roads are so much worse for wear.