Justice is coming

Posted by: NW Ponderer

Justice is coming - 08/21/18 08:46 PM

Manafort convicted on 8 charges. Michael Cohen pleads guilty to multiple counts of fraud and tax evasion.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/21/18 08:51 PM

Cohen pleads to 8 counts, TWO INVOLVE TRUMP. Michael Cohen surrenders to the FBI - CNN.

Paul Manafort found guilty on eight counts - CNN.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/21/18 10:16 PM

Trump is officially an unindicted Coconspirator: Cohen allocution. For the non-legally educated, the allocution is the testimony under oath of a person pleading guilty proving their guilt to the charge. And, it includes back up documentation.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/21/18 10:16 PM

When it rains, it pours! What is this, my birthday or something?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/21/18 11:06 PM

My wife just said, "well, that's two less Republican votes..."
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/21/18 11:41 PM

I hope Cohen gets to go to a nice federal prison. You know, with big screen TVs, internet access, free Astrolube, etc. His crimes didn't directly kill anybody, unlike Manafort who is partly responsible for lots of dead people in The Ukraine.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 01:09 AM

Quote:
I hope Cohen gets to go to a nice federal prison.

For a man once described as "looking like a cigarette smells" it's odd that I'm kind of sympathetic to his case as well.

Maybe it was that statement about his family and doing the right thing. Maybe it's that he made it clear early on he was gonna sing like a canary....and he knows stuff about Trump. All those crappy jobs he did for Trump and all those times he got sent out for coffee might come back to bite Trump in the ass.

Manafort is gonna get pardoned. But he also has a couple more trials coming up and a lot more charges. I'm thinking Manafort is practice for when Mueller actually charges Trump. He'll find out which charges stick and which ones don't.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 01:43 AM

Lots of Manafort's crimes have similar state crimes. Evading federal taxes makes it unlikely you filled in your state taxes correctly, but these are different crimes. State prosecution is in the works if he is pardoned. And since accepting a pardon means admitting you are guilty, the state case is a slam-dunk.
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 02:10 AM

The only down side, Mike Pence and Paul Ryan are waiting in the wings cry eek
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 04:51 AM

Depends on how fast the wheels of justice turn. If they both get booted after January, the Speaker will probably be a Democrat. If I was a Congressional Republican leader, I would convince Pence to resign now and get somebody who won't be impeached in the VP office, like Romney. Then at least they keep the Presidency until 2020.

That's what they did with Spiro Agnew and Nixon.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 05:49 AM

U.S. v. Michael Cohen
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 04:48 PM

Thanks NWP.

The original must have been miss-handled during copy, It is unreadable (double vision like and blurry)both the webpage and the PDF.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 06:25 PM

Unfortunately, and further based on initial Republican responses, we have just seen Mr Trump shoot and wound someone in Times Square, and all any Republican would say is, he didn't kill the person.

Folks, do not delude yourself into thinking impeachment charges are being filed in the House as I type.

The prevailing argument has been Republicans will stand by their man until he costs Republicans the House. I now reject that argument as based on fallacious premises. More important than simply losing House seats is confronting Trump's base, which is if no one has noticed, the Republican base. The base operates out of ignorance and in the dark holes of bigotry. Think about this .... if Republicans bolt now, they will face the anger and certain blowback of the base.

Republicans have denied who their base is for too many years and now it has been exposed for what it really is.

I believe it is highly doubtful Republican "leadership" will do anything to protect SP Mueller. I predict Mr Trump will "fire" SP Mueller rather than face the increasing reality of getting the facts and truth in the light of day. And when he does, I predict Republicans will do nothing.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 07:02 PM

The Republicans are a complete waste of time and cannot be expected to act in any way other in their own interest. Hopefully the Dems will take over but I have serious questions about that one too. Right now they seem to already claiming victory. I kinda remember the last time they did that.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 08/22/18 10:12 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
The Republicans are a complete waste of time and cannot be expected to act in any way other in their own interest. Hopefully the Dems will take over but I have serious questions about that one too. Right now they seem to already claiming victory. I kinda remember the last time they did that.


Ayup... Hmm

Maybe this time will be different?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/23/18 12:28 AM

The Trump syndicate is claiming that Cohen confessed to something that wasn't a crime, then Trump admitted to committing a crime on Fox News. Note: if the Trump organization repaid Cohen, that is a separate crime. Trump doesn't make that distinction, when he says "I paid it". He didn't, the Trump organization did.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Justice is coming - 08/23/18 02:10 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
He didn't, the Trump organization did.

The IRS might want to check to see if it was written off as a business expense.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/23/18 06:47 AM

Trump's royal "we". He makes no distinction between what he pays, what the Trump organization pays, and what his campaign pays. He would be a terrible CEO of a public company. Not only would he be fired quickly, he would also be in big trouble with the FTC and SEC. (Much like Duncan Hunter's accounting ideas!)

As president, he keeps on blundering into stuff because he has no idea what the rules are and no interest in finding out. Strong-man dictator is easier. Being a functional US President is way, way beyond his level of incompetence.

Given an interview I watched today, he seems to think it's okay that whoever paid the hush money as long as the campaign didn't. He has no clue and can't seem to understand that the crime is GIVING an illegal contribution to the campaign, not taking it from the campaign. As a matter of fact, the campaign paying hush money would probably be legal, but it would have to report it rather defeating the purpose.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/23/18 12:48 PM

Manafort jury hung by one juror. And that's reported by Fox Noose. 11 "guilty"s and one holdout. That's got to make Trump feel good.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/23/18 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

Given an interview I watched today, he seems to think it's okay that whoever paid the hush money as long as the campaign didn't. He has no clue and can't seem to understand that the crime is GIVING an illegal contribution to the campaign, not taking it from the campaign. As a matter of fact, the campaign paying hush money would probably be legal, but it would have to report it rather defeating the purpose.
I suppose they could report it as "morale services" or "illegal expenses".
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 08/23/18 07:27 PM

Apparently, because the Jackass claimed to have paid the money himself, and did not take it from the Campaign he committed not 1 crime but two. This is based on the money being spent to save the campaign so, it was a campaign crime and also a crime of bribery. I heard several law dogs explaining that.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/23/18 07:46 PM

Apparently, Trump is getting screwed (again), and has, again, been betrayed by his Pecker:
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/24/18 05:49 AM

Slate has a pretty good article that explains some state has a double jeopardy law that prevents the state from trying somebody for a crime for which he has been found innocent or guilty. But it says nothing about somebody who had a mistrial! So that one juror actually increased Manafort's chances of being charged in that state. And most of the possible state's allow the use of previous convictions in their trials to show a pattern of criminal behavior. Since accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt, those state trials become slam-dunks.

A Lone Holdout Juror Actually Made It Mo...ump Pardons Him

Three states that can charge Manafort are California, New York, and Illinois: Very Blue states indeed!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/24/18 05:51 AM

Trump is now claiming that turning state's evidence should be illegal! This is not the statement of a normal law-abiding person. This is the statement of a crime boss.

My wife points out that the people in Congress who protect him are all members of that crime family.
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: Justice is coming - 08/24/18 01:42 PM

Yea, the Rethuglican Family an amorphous organization spread through this country like a malignant cancer.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/24/18 02:26 PM

NY Times: Manhattan DA looking at criminal charges against Trump Organization - CNN. For too long, Trump used his company and his foundation interchangeably as his personal piggy bank. Because of that, they are now subject to scrutiny. That is even WORSE for the President, as his lack of clothes will be available for all to see. Moreover, Pecker, Cohen, Trump and Manafort are all residents of New York, and Republicans don't have much influence there. As long as the prosecution is not "for the same conduct", New York has no restriction on prosecution.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/24/18 04:19 PM

Trump Org CFO Allen Weisselberg given immunity by prosecutors to testify - NBC. The end is nigh.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 08/24/18 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer


An MSNBC pundit said that DOJ thinks there's "a lot of good juice that can be squeezed out of that lemon"...which made me wonder...

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 08/24/18 07:54 PM

If POTUS & Pecker Paid a Pack of Pissed Off Porn Stars -
How Many Pissed Off Porn Stars Did POTUS & Pecker Pay?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 08/25/18 12:02 AM


Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/25/18 01:14 AM

Bow
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Justice is coming - 08/25/18 01:52 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Apparently, because the Jackass claimed to have paid the money himself, and did not take it from the Campaign he committed not 1 crime but two. This is based on the money being spent to save the campaign so, it was a campaign crime and also a crime of bribery. I heard several law dogs explaining that.
Here is a step-by-step primer on how to make the worst series of decisions possible - it relates to covering up hush money payments to porn stars:


Step 1: Deny that it happened.

Step 2: Sue the porn star for revealing it, based on a nondisclosure agreement that you weren't a part of. Be sure to use the NDA that you aren't in as evidence of innocence.

Step 3: Say that you didn't know anything about it and your lawyer did it as a favor (both the NDA and the payment), because you were such good friends.

Step 4: When that doesn't fly, say that even if you had done it, but you didn't, there wouldn't be anything wrong with it.

Step 5: Hire Rudy Giuliani to be your spokesman.

Step 6: When your lawyer flips on you because you pretended that you barely knew him and he's incompetent, say he has no credibility because he's obviously a big fat liar.

Step 7: Continue to let Rudy Giuliani be your spokesman.

Step 8: Continue to deny knowing anything about it, but declare that you paid for it, not your campaign, even though having your campaign pay for it would have been strictly legal though not ethical, while paying for it personally and not reporting it is not legal.

Step 9: Continue to claim that you paid for it personally even after your Trump Organization CFO flips on you and confirms that not only did the business pay for it (exceeding donation limits), and you didn't report it (violating contribution disclosure laws), and you claimed it as a business expense (tax fraud), and you personally directed it (a crapload of lying), and it was for the purpose of influencing an election (must be a law about that).

Step 10: Continue to let Rudy Giuliani represent you.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 08/25/18 04:32 PM

As far as I can tell Cohen has decided he is going down and Jackass gets to keep him company.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 08/25/18 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
As far as I can tell Cohen has decided he is going down and Jackass gets to keep him company.


But, oddly, thus far Mueller has shown no interest in making a deal with Cohen. He already has Cohen's files and anything else Cohen has is not documented.
I'm still hoping for further developments closer to the election.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/26/18 01:29 AM

If Cohen gets years of probation and a suspended sentence, that is his reward for cooperation.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/26/18 02:06 PM

Here's my take on Cohen: This is just step one. Cohen knows stuff about Trump, but he's not as valuable an asset as Weiselberg. Pecker has stuff on Trump (and lots of others), but he has First Amendment complications. Cohen is, at best, second string. But, his sentencing isn't until December - after the election. Manafort's second trial hasn't happened yet, either. There is plenty of time to deal if necessary. He just might not be necessary.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/26/18 02:14 PM

I'm waiting for a decision from a federal judge that Trump has to return all the Ill-gotten gains he has reaped from monetizing the presidency. He's all about one thing - making money off of others. Take that away. That's what will really hurt.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 08/26/18 07:15 PM

I listened to the guy who wrote a new book called:
House of Trump, House of Putin: The Untold Story of Donald Trump and the Russian Mafia

It sounded like he, pretty much, reports the goods on Trump.

here is a review:
https://www.vnews.com/Signs-of-Trump-Putin-collaboration-starting-years-before-the-campaign-19625757
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 08/27/18 04:34 PM

The problem I see with books such as the one you cited is, they could very easily be considered partisan hit pieces without much more than insinuations and allegations. Consider Schweizer's hit piece on the Clinton's. The only "evidence" he had was a "pattern of criminal activity".

So the question, is "House of ..." just another hit piece or does it have real evidence????
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/27/18 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314

So the question, is "House of ..." just another hit piece or does it have real evidence????
The answer, I think, will come from Robert Mueller.
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: Justice is coming - 08/27/18 08:30 PM

Let us pray that, that will be very soon!
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 08/27/18 11:21 PM

I don't know how the system works.

I predict Mr Trump will end the Russia Investigation. Despite all the peremptory threats from Republican Senators I also predict neither Sen McConnell nor Rep Ryan will do anything to either stop the action or react to it.

Now this is what I think will happen. All the research and evidence will be archived or destroyed. I don't know if SP Mueller could write a report from the position of a discharged SP. I don't know what value it would have. It may still not matter since it is not likely Democrats would win a majority in the Senate.

Mr Trump (as president) has become a person above the law because of his singular position as president.

The 2020 general election is in jeopardy. If Mr Trump loses the 2020, no Trump supporter will believe the results are valid. This would be a crippling blow to the foundations of government. Remember there are a lot of extremist nuts in Congress.

just some rambling thoughts
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/28/18 12:26 AM

Going so outside the law and normal order has consequences: At some point in there, random disconnected people start burning down Senator's and Rep's home offices, threatening them or their families, or actually taking pot shots at Congressmen. Being a Republican Congressman who won't act against Trump becomes dangerous. Their jobs are not just in jeopardy, their lives are at risk. The Secret Service becomes over-burdened trying to provide security for every Congressman and his family, his home office, his residence, and so on.

I think under those conditions, enough would decide Pence is a perfectly good option.

Please note that I would never do any of these things. I'm just saying that there are millions of people out there who would support it, and thousands who are crazy enough to do it. We've already seen it at that Republican softball game.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/28/18 01:20 AM

Here is how I see things proceeding after the mid term selections. I think the House will go to the Democrats, barring a substantial event. There is a small chance the Senate will shift as well. In the short term, Republicans will rush through as much as they can during the lame-duck period.

Come January, additional indictments are likely (maybe even by November). Democrats will initiate investigations into a variety of issues being suppressed by Republicans. As more information comes out, Trump's approval will take a hit, even among diehards. Trump will no longer control the agenda.

Impeachment will not occur before the year is out (investigations take time). That could be stepped up considerably if Mueller issues a report. His indictments already provide a clear roadmap. His report will be even more detailed. If Trump issues pardons, impeachment will come even faster.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/28/18 03:41 AM

Quote:
If Trump issues pardons, impeachment will come even faster.

Blue-state AGs are just chomping at the bit to thwart Trump pardons with state charges, just to show that they are mostly ineffective. I don't suppose anybody has bothered to tell Trump? I bet they are all waiting until the day a pardon is announced to file, just to demoralize the opposition.

And remember what a pain in the ass Daryl Issa was? We would have his House committee that does nothing but investigate government, but run by a Democrat with power to investigate, subpoena, charge uncooperative folks with Contempt of Congress, and publish endless malfeasance reports. It would be Bengazi all over again, but with actual crimes and criminals!

I think Trump is toast without both Houses of Congress to cover for him.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 08/28/18 04:32 AM

Yes I have seen movies in which the protagonist had lost all integrity but at some point had an epiphany and for just one moment did the right thing ... but alas ... it was only in make believe.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 08/28/18 04:53 PM

"Don, I am your father."
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 08/28/18 06:35 PM

I guess I should add some stuff about the book: house of trump : house of putin.

The author have over 1000 source notes and researches the trump affiliation of Trump with Putin back over the last 30 years.

The author is also on twitter:
https://twitter.com/craigunger?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 08/28/18 09:33 PM

here is the problem with thousands of citations, intel reports, crime reports, etc ... if they are just stand alone items without connection, all he has is a pattern of criminality (this is the same as Schweizer's book). The nutty talk show hosts use the same technique to "prove" Sec Clinton is not just the spawn of Satan but Satan. They start with a fact. Yes a real live unimpeachable fact ... not an alternative fact. The they mention the conclusion they want to reach. And if by magic they will present a case full of "facts" (actually assumptions) which prove the claim.

Now don't get me wrong. There is little doubt Mr Trump had been consorting with Russians for some time. The problem is, was it more than just consorting? Did he break the law or just step all over the envelope?

For me, I have to see the books

*****

The current case is curious. I do not know if anyone can "prove" conspiracy (which I believe is the correct charge) but certainly there was a level of interaction which could easily be construed as collusion. But does it rise to the level of a crime?

However, I think there may be fairly clear evidence of obstruction of an investigation. So why would Mr Trump try to obstruct an investigation? Was he simply trying to protect Gen Flynn? but why? Mr Trump doesn't give a sheis about anyone but himself. just curious.

What about all the false statements he made? Of course he could be lying to the press ... it is not against the law, but sure is misleading. Or was he trying to protect his sons from possible criminal liability? Did he sense they may have broken the law and he was trying to protect them?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/28/18 11:02 PM

A couple of corrections: Conspiracy does not require collusion. You don't even have to know the other person or people! You just have to be working toward the same illegal goal. I think this is decided law right up to the Supreme Court.

Lying to the press is not illegal under most circumstances. But when there is an active investigation, lying to the press about something that could affect the investigation IS Obstruction of Justice. Just like lying to another person is usually not illegal, but do it to influence a potential witness and it is Witness Tampering (which Manafort found out the hard way.)

There is a very good reason why lawyers first of all tell their clients to stop talking. Anything you say will probably hurt your case and almost certainly not help.

Number One Rule: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 08/29/18 12:32 AM

This is classic: Duncan Hunter previously blamed his wife for $250,000 worth of campaign conversion of funds. Now he's claiming that it's all political, and says the media should leave his wife and family out of it! Can't have it both ways, Duncan...

Misspending campaign money on personal stuff is a minor offense that normally just requires paying back the money and paying a fine. But what gets people in real trouble is if they tried to conceal it. Which Hunter and his wife did by labeling certain personal expenses as legitimate campaign expenses, even though there was no justification for that. Fancy dinners, family trips to Disney, etc.

It's not the crime that gets you. It's the cover-up.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 08/29/18 04:28 AM

Quote:
When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging

I think that is good advice but I know what these folks are thinking. They believe they can dig their way to China and thus avoid at the minimum embarrassing questions and at the worst, they are well hidden from prosecution.

In Mr Trump's case, he believes he is above the law and thus he can talk all he wants.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 09/04/18 04:53 PM

Anderson Cooper: Trump’s tweet is an admission.
Toobin: Trump Tweet May Be Impeachabe Offense
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 09/05/18 01:08 AM

Again, not the original crime, but the cover-up: These two Congressmen committed financial crimes. Trump suggesting they should not be indicted because of their Party is so much worse, it is yet another impeachable offense. This is why we really should elect lawyers for public office, since they usually have some idea about what is criminal and what is not. Trump is clueless.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 09/06/18 08:27 PM

Trump is in for it. I think that's becoming a fact. There have been several books, etc. recounting how much of a disaster he is. Now we have somebody, claiming to be from the White House staff (and I believe it as its from the NYT who wouldn't claim the writer was "high up in the administration" unless it was true) writing a piece for the NYT that, basically claims, that Trump is simply neither fit (mentally or psychologically), nor competent and is also woefully ignorant, and dangerous to the nation. All this does is simply back up all the rest of the same kinds of claims.

I have thought, for a very long time, that the Republicans would wake up and do something rather than sitting on their hands whilst they get their wet dreams realized. Instead, so far, they decided to kiss the Jackass nether region, hope for the best, and take care of #1.

However, that all being said, we are going to have an election in 2 months. If the Dems actually are able to pull of a real win that will also mean that Jackass is not the miracle worker and his belief of victory is a myth, as well as his base being a danger. When that happens those same craven politicians are going to race to see who is first in denouncing Jackass and he will be done.

They are also saying that article 25, of the constitution, is a way to remove Jackass. Now they are also saying that the Vice President, and congress, can also do that. They will need a 2/3 of congress vote to pull it off but the Dems will flood aboard and the remaining Republicans won't be too far behind once they discover that the bully can't hurt them (they will keep their jobs).

Basically, they (the talking heads of tv) are starting to a join in with a belief that we are kinda entering into a kindofa end of days for Jackass (they, of course, qualify it all with if, maybe, possibly, perhaps, etc) We will know if its really time when they start with 'is' and 'will'.

The the Jackass will be gone and all we will have to deal with is, quite possibly the greatest moralist of the political realm - Vice President Mike Pence. I seriously believe he will turn on Jackass in a New York minute and claim its the Lord's will.

Anyway................
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 09/06/18 10:26 PM

**LOL** Ultimately they will all disavow Trump, swear they were never in thrall to him and cast him beneath the bus...

In lieu of Trump I would gladly take the moralist. He's at least bound to Biblical Law. It's not much comfort, but Trump is bound to nothing but his own vainglorious greed.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves in our imaginings of some cataclismically wonderful bombshell that blows Republicanism back to the stone age. You think Justice is coming? Justice Kavanaugh is coming. And Trump will have two hand picked sycophants on the court.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 09/07/18 02:04 AM

Does anybody else see Rudy being charged with Obstruction Of Justice when they all turn on Trump? He's done and said an awful lot of un-lawyerly things since going to work for Trump. Don't some of these things cross the line into indictment or at least disbarment?

Sessions had the good sense to recuse himself, once he figured out he had crossed the line. He still violated some laws, but so much less than so many other Trump people, he might just escape prosecution.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 09/14/18 04:15 PM

Another shoe drops... Paul Manafort enters cooperation agreement with Justice Department - CNN.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 09/14/18 04:30 PM

Why would Manafort flip if he knows Mr Trump will give him a pardon? Does it mean Manafort has nothing on Mr Trump? Manafort may have a lot on family?? Certainly Russians and apparently the Israelis.

My tea leaves don't align themselves until they see evidence and are able to derive reasonable conclusions.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 09/14/18 06:56 PM

On Manafort: I think there are three factors at play. First, he's facing the rest of his life in jail. Second, he's under threat by Russians, and they are not shy about eliminating loose ends. Third, he may be weighing the merits of witness protection against a possible pardon from an unreliable "friend". His lawyers were probably urging cooperation with a guarantee of less jail time rather than betting on Trump. Plus, if pardoned, the 5th Amendment doesn't apply, and he can be forced to testify without immunity.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 09/14/18 07:55 PM

Quote:
My tea leaves don't align themselves until they see evidence and are able to derive reasonable conclusions.

I have the same problem with my cracked crystal ball.

In a normal world when the bad guy's personal attorney flipped it was end game. Allegations came out, charges were filed, careers were ended.

Nothing really seemed to come of it.

Now his campaign manager has flipped.
In a normal world this would be end game. Tomorrows headlines would reveal heinous crimes, denials would be made, people would be arrested and the nation would erupt in right wing anger.

Ya know? What more does Mueller need to file his report?

I'm waitin' for the fireworks but each time the fuse is lit it just turns into a dud.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 09/14/18 08:55 PM

And forced to testify against some pretty nasty Russians, too! Not to mention that many of his charges have state analogs that could be pursued if he escaped federal punishment. Accepting a pardon requires you to admit guilt. That makes state trials very easy for prosecutors.

I think when it comes down to it, a Presidential pardon is not worth much unless you have state governors who don't want to charge you.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 09/14/18 08:59 PM

Quote:
each time the fuse is lit it just turns into a dud


I know it's hard to wait, but Mueller is the real fuse guy. All these others are just punks lighting off firecrackers and bottle rockets before the real fireworks start.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 01:18 AM

so lets examine this

1. life in prison
... A Trump pardon would solve that (disregarding extenuating circumstances). If he flips he gets some prison time without pardon (assuming he provides incriminating evidence of Mr Trump's criminality on something ... so no pardon) but if he actually knows nothing which incriminates Mr Trump, the pardon is back in (maybe).

2. Russian extreme prejudice
... This is more of an assumption than actual death threats. Beside, if he doesn't flip, there is no problem. Suppose he flips and provides evidence against Ukrainians and Russians, has there been a known death threat from any of these folks, or is it just an assumption since it is well known how these gangsters operate?

3. Witsec
... so does he need protection from Mr Trump? He wouldn't hurt anyone physically. Could he order someone hurt? Maybe. From Russians? see above.

4. a 5th of moonshine
... I foresee a pardon of infinite dimensions or forced to respond to what question? I don't remember.

Just some spitballing.

If Manafort actually knew anything, why would Mr Trump give him up?

Speculation: I think SP Mueller convinced Manafort even if Mr Trump gave him a walk, state entities would not and he would therefore still spend a lifetime in prison, however if he ... Now I don't think foreign powers come into play. The accounting books are being investigated, so why would SP Mueller need Manafort to confirm what is already known?

just rambling
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 02:36 AM

Quote:
why would SP Mueller need Manafort to confirm what is already known?


That's just how it works in court. The prosecutor may already know something but the evidence for it is too complicated for the average juror. It's good to present the evidence AND have a witness or a confession. That simplifies things.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 03:33 AM

could be but as an example of what I am thinking ... SP Mueller did not need Manafort to "help" Mueller's case ... all SP Mueller needed was the evidence which presented the case itself.

Of course it could be since Mr Trump does not use any documentary applications except twitter (I am excluding telecoms as I don't know how long phone server logs kept), it could be necessary for eye witness accounts. But then Manafort is a proven liar (would he lie to save his skin?) and of course we have the narcissist who compulsively lies ...

I am not so sure everything is as it appears and as clear cut as many believe it is.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 02:41 PM


Manafort had to deliver some blockbuster, truthful information to get the deal he got, else Mueller would have walked out of that room.

Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
why would SP Mueller need Manafort to confirm what is already known?


That's just how it works in court. The prosecutor may already know something but the evidence for it is too complicated for the average juror. It's good to present the evidence AND have a witness or a confession. That simplifies things.

Apparently, it works like this:

* Prosecutors would tell Manafort to list every crime he has committed, and then identify every crime committed by others

* Prosecutors ask about any crime that Manafort knows about.

* Prosecutors begin corroborating everything Manafort said with external information.

* When completely satisfied of all of Manafort's information, the Prosecutors can offer him a cooperation agreement.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 05:09 PM

Rick, you have that exactly right. One wrinkle, though, is that the defendant has to ask first. (I know that's not how it looks on TV. Prosecutors can "mention" cooperating, but Defendants have to make the first offer. Cops, however, can promise all they want, since they can't agree to anything.) Once the issue is on the table, negotiations ensue. You can discern that Kabuki in the Manafort stories. Once the offer has been made, though, your sequence is exactly right.

The key for Manafort is identifying activities and explaining how evidence fits together - even if he never testifies. Gates was not "necessary" for Manafort's trial, but he could provide the view from the inside, so they used him.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 05:46 PM

Latest report is Manafort's agreement was only about non campaign issues. The caveat is of course he probably has to answer ALL questions on ALL issues including the campaign.

Goes to my previous comment all is not as it appears.

I suspect SP Mueller has a list of all the bullet points worth investigating. Manafort can only provide details of the ephemeral threads which may connect these items i.e. details of Russian meeting, which may corroborate previous testimony from Trump's and Kushner, or refutation of Russian denials. I don't think he can provide any "new" avenues of investigation.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 06:54 PM



Manafort's plea deal:


*Paul Manafort has to give the government whatever documents they ask for, and also do whatever Robert Mueller says, because Robert Mueller is Manafort's new Boss.

*Paul Manafort has testify wherever the Government tells him to, about whomever they tell him to. That includes the grand jury - with NO COUNSEL PRESENT

*Paul Manafort BETTER NOT LIE.

* Paul Manafort better understand that he's not getting sentenced until the government says he's done cooperating.

* Paul Manafort gave-up his right to plead the 5th Amendment

=================

The best part? All of the assets that Muller seized owned-by Paul Manafort are worth more than what the Mueller investigation has cost so far. Essentially, this investigation has now cost the taxpayer $0, with money left-over. smile

#Winning
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 09/15/18 07:06 PM



Plus, the charges were read to the judge so it's now public record in case Fatboy stifles the end report. Mueller plays 3D chess really well. smile
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 09/16/18 06:40 PM

I think we should all remember some important things:

These are all the BEST people!
Don Jr. was caught trying to establish a back channel to Russia
then there is: https://www.fox47news.com/newsy/renewed-lawsuit-accuses-donald-trump-of-raping-an-underage-girl

Along with the BEST people it just gets better, and better, and better (well, depending on where you stand)
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 09/16/18 08:37 PM

"The Best People" are the ones who bow and scrape before his royal orangeness. Donors, lackeys, and sycophants. Bootlicking hangers on and fans from years gone by.
His cronies, his pals, his whores, and his pimps.

NOT the people best qualified for the jobs he gives them.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 09/17/18 04:39 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I think we should all remember some important things:

These are all the BEST people!
Don Jr. was caught trying to establish a back channel to Russia
then there is: https://www.fox47news.com/newsy/renewed-lawsuit-accuses-donald-trump-of-raping-an-underage-girl

Along with the BEST people it just gets better, and better, and better (well, depending on where you stand)

Obviously Trump's "best" is not what normal people would call best. Hmm

Plus the first clue is the guy has filed six times for business bankruptcy. The guy is a total loser, yet his base think he's grand. rolleyes

Having an IQ above room temperature is not a requirement for voting for POTUS, clearly. smile
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 09/17/18 09:37 PM

Perhaps they are voting for one of their own. We have been told that he speaks at a fourth grade level which puts him, approximately, at mentally 10 years old.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 11/28/18 05:22 PM

Consider this: what if Mueller, who has decades of experience working on low-lifes, was well aware that Manafort was feeding info to Trump (i.e., was a triple-agent), Trump has decades of experience working with other low-lifes, and was feeding false impressions to Manafort while Trump was preparing his responses... Mueller May Have Just Found a Clever Way of Using Manafort to Bypass Matthew Whitaker. Mueller may have just sprung his "perjury trap."
Posted by: Ken Condon

Re: Justice is coming - 11/28/18 06:13 PM

It’s too bad that Mueller's hands are tied regarding Trumps finances. It's my understanding that his directive is only to determine if Trump et al worked with the Russians during his presidential campaign. And nothing regarding his finances. Is this true? I am unclear on that.

What most Trump detractors really want to know is how deeply he is in bed with Russian and Saudi financiers. Amongst others. Is there any way that complete answers to those questions will ever see the light of day?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 11/28/18 06:26 PM

Here's my take: Mueller can investigate issues that "arise from" his investigation of Russian interference. One of those issues is "why" members of the Trump campaign and others might have coordinated with Russians or others to compromise the election. Thus Paul Manafort's and Rick Gates' financial entanglements and crimes were within his ambit. If the same or similar issues arise with regard to Trump, the Trump organization, or Trump family members, it would appear to be within his authority, as endorsed by several federal courts.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 11/28/18 06:56 PM

There is a book; House of Trump House of Putin. It lays it all out and everything in the book sourced and listed in a HUGE appendix. I may have this one backwards but Kellyanne is the granddaughter of a chief of the American mafia. The attorney (Cohen) is the grandson of the head of the American Russian mafia. That is just for starters. The jackass administration is, basically a criminal enterprise. There are now, I think, 3 law suits just over taking money from furreners. His various appointments, with few exceptions, are taking with both hands whatever isn't nailed down until it becomes so public that they have to be let go. ALL this kind of stuff is against the law! I would be absolutely amazed if Mueller hasn't been following up on all this stuff.

We have also been told that states attorney generals have been gifted, by Mueller and there are a number of them just waiting to have at it. He has also distributed more stuff to a number of federal prosecutors. I think this sort of stuff is just stuff that was not specific to Mueller's probe and I also tend to believe that there is a pile of this stuff just waiting for the right time to forge ahead. I suspect that time is when Mueller is done and there has been suggestions that time is getting close at hand. My supposition is that, when that happens, we will see not only Mueller getting indictments but both state AND federal folks doing the same.

I REALLY hope I am right!! (my history in the realm of prognostication is not all that great <sigh>)
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 11/28/18 07:49 PM

Quote:
perjury trap

While one may entertain the speculation SP Mueller is so devious he would waylay unsuspecting interviewees, I suspect the reality is SP Mueller simply allowed Corsi, Manafort, et al a blank canvas to paint their story. If they lied, it was by their own hand, unprompted by SP Mueller.

Now one may suppose the "trap" was to allow these slugs a choice in telling the narrative their way.

Corsi has lied so much, he has forgotten which lie he is telling.

Lock him up
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 11/28/18 09:45 PM


Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
It’s too bad that Mueller's hands are tied regarding Trumps finances. It's my understanding that his directive is only to determine if Trump et al worked with the Russians during his presidential campaign. And nothing regarding his finances. Is this true? I am unclear on that.

What most Trump detractors really want to know is how deeply he is in bed with Russian and Saudi financiers. Amongst others. Is there any way that complete answers to those questions will ever see the light of day?


Mueller may be constrained, but the US House of Reps is not. They can investigate whatever they want. There appear to be some shenanigans going on in regards to Saudi Arabia's crown prince ordering the assassination of a journalist and it seems to have some financial underpinnings connected to Trump and weapon sales...

But no, Ken, none of it will ever see the light of day.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 01:51 AM

Mueller is playing chess five moves ahead while Trump is playing checkers, and badly at that too. Brilliant to let Trump answer his questions in writing and claim credit for them, knowing that Manafort's been telling the Trump team all the lies he told Mueller so they can "get their stories straight" AKA coordinated perjury.

Then, and only then Mueller parades out the evidence he has that proves Manafort lied. Now Trump has lied too, if he used Manafort's false claims! And not just lied, but lied to a Special Prosecutor during an official investigation. Unless Trump threw Manafort under the bus and denied his lies, he's screwed. And I'll eat my hat if Trump did that. I think he's a big fan of people "getting their stories straight".
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 03:00 AM

Quote:
Looking at Manafort and Trump on one side and Mueller on the other, one is reminded of the old adage of one side "playing chess" and the other "playing checkers." Although with today's developments, maybe it's more like chess and Candy Land.
Dan Rather.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 04:17 AM

I know if I get my hopes up over this they'll just be dashed again when nothing comes of it.

I've felt from the very start that eventually this Trump thing would fly off the tracks. I didn't have much faith in Mueller finding a clear cut case of collusion, but a clear cut case of lying under oath might work just as well. I don't care if he ever gets indicted for anything, I just want to see him weakened enough that he'll lose in 2020.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 07:05 AM

Who knows? Maybe an air-tight case of perjury is enough to kick some Republican senators' butts so they will convict. Don't forget, they still have a perfectly good Pence sitting in the wings ready to take over and keep the Presidency in Republican hands. They might even do better in 2020 if they do go with Pence now. Stick with Trump and they lose the Presidency and the Senate.

Keeping Trump in office until then is really a Democrat wish now. He's done more for the Democratic Party than Clinton and Sanders combined.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 06:00 PM

First, the headline:Michael Cohen pleads guilty, says he lied about Trump's knowledge of Moscow project (CNN)

Then the significance:
Quote:
The Cohen revelations are potentially significant because they appear to show that Trump was engaged in business dealings with Russia in the midst of a campaign in which Moscow interfered to help elect him.

It could also intersect with other information that Mueller knows to create political and legal jeopardy for the President.


Also of significant note is that Cohen explicitly named Trump, the Trump organization, and Trump "family members" as participants in the scheme to deceive. I think the timing on this is not as has been asserted by others - because Trump is going to the G20 and planned to meet with Putin - but because the Manafort hearing (and Cohen's sentencing) is coming up, and he has gotten answers from Trump, so his case is mature enough to allow the shoes to start dropping. In addition, the charge was about lying to Congress, which is an unsubtle hint to Congress that they need to reopen the hearings.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 06:42 PM

Quote:
[Congress] need[s] to reopen the hearings

and what?

I read and feel your indignation, however, I see no political or legal remedy for either real or perceived "crimes".

It doesn't appear to be illegal for anyone running for office to be engaged in business activities. It is not a crime to lie to the press or ones supporters about those activities. In fact his supporters have told many reporters many times they do not care if he lies. Apparently his elected supporters in Congress agree.

So I have to ask, how would your indignation be assuaged in a highly polarized political world?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 06:43 PM

One thought:
Has anyone else pondered the probability that Putin has a lot of goods on quite a few members of Congress?
I believe it is inevitable that we will learn that Putin tapped into the communications of a large number of Congress critters, which just might explain their reluctance (errr - - outright refusal?) to move these investigations forward into a more focused criminal phase.

Certain Trump defenders have been parading terms around like "coordinated perjury" or "perjury traps" when they should be pondering things like lying to a Special Prosecutor.

I guess we'll see what crops up.

Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 08:02 PM

Perjury is perjury, whether you lie to Congress, or in court, or to federal investigators. This is another one of Mueller's brilliant moves: He waits until Trump claims in writing and under penalty of perjury that he had no business dealings with Russians after he became President, and then has Cohen admit in court that he did. No doubt there is documentary evidence to back that up. That is Mueller's style: Use the documents to convince somebody to flip. Then you have both documents and people involved with the crime to take to court.

And I think it's a sure thing that Trump made provable false statements in his question reply. He'd have to admit everything to make his answers true, even if he avoided some topics. We can assume Mueller knew the answer to every question in great detail before he asked them. Any good prosecutor does.

As to who will prosecute Trump? New York state AG, that's who. Most of his federal crimes are also state crimes. Do you honestly think the state of New York is willing to forego collecting Trump's ill-gotten gains? The day he leaves office, New York state tax forensic accountants will be all over his finances. His only hope is to drop dead or flee the country before then.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 08:24 PM

Quote:
Trump claims in writing and under penalty of perjury that he had no business dealings with Russians after he became President, and then has Cohen admit in court that he did

I don;t think that is what was claimed. June 2016 is during campaign. Mr trump lied about his business to reporters and his supporters. So what. His supporters don't care (and I suspect they love the fact he lies) and reporters file charges for lying.

Other people may be liable for their testimony before Congress but I am sure the Trump family all have pardons good to go.

Quote:
The day he leaves office

I don;t give a flying frak about what happens to him AFTER he leaves office. I am not trying to get revenge. I want to protect America from what he is doing to it.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 11/29/18 09:01 PM

The best protection for America until he leaves is the Democratic House. That's what we can do, and we did in spades. The next two years is going to be non-stop Hell for Trump. Countless lawsuits and congressional investigations, subpoenas, etc. Even the judges he thinks are "his" are going to disappoint him as to his illegal Executive Orders. Not a single law passed unless they can make it worth while to Democrats. I would not be surprised if he strokes out before it is over.

But I do want prosecutions when it is over. We need those to show everyone that we are a nation of laws, and that anybody who thinks they are above the law is not.

Sorry about the date confusion.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 11/30/18 12:49 AM

Quote:
“The guilty plea is 175 pages long. In my career, I have never seen one like this. It was so carefully crafted by Bob Mueller and signed by Paul Manafort, that at the time he pleaded guilty to the charges he was indicted for — which was basically bank fraud, money laundering, and some form of commercial bribery of foreign officials in federal court. He also pleaded guilty to uncharged state crimes in New Jersey, in Virginia and in California.”


I almost wish Trump WOULD try to pardon Manafort, or someone, anyone.

Fox News legal analyst stunned at how Mueller made it impossible for Trump to save Manafort

Oh boo hoo hoo, so many lives have been ruined!!

violin :tinyviolin:
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 11/30/18 01:42 AM

Quote:
His only hope is to drop dead or flee the country before then.

Or to fire Mueller. McConnell has blocked legislation to prevent it.
It would be a firestorm but he might survive it because the Senate won't turn on him.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 11/30/18 01:53 AM

Quote:
I don;t give a flying frak about what happens to him AFTER he leaves office. I am not trying to get revenge. I want to protect America from what he is doing to it.

ThumbsUp
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 11/30/18 02:31 AM

Quote:
Or to fire Mueller

Oh no, I'm assuming somebody fires Mueller or slightly smarter, accepts his report and then sits on it. But the House subcommittees can subpoena Mueller and everything he has is public. Firing Mueller serves little purpose now. The House takes over the investigation seamlessly. State AGs file charges that can't be pardoned by the President. Manafort starts his (long) prison sentence in state prisons even if Trump pardons him, for state crimes he has already plead guilty to.

Even if the Senate refuses to act, it just makes it worse for them in 2020. Democrats would take the Senate AND the Presidency.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 11/30/18 04:45 AM

Although this appears unrelated, it may prove not to be: Federal agents mysteriously raided a former Trump attorney’s office: what we know (Vox). Also, Deutsche Bank headquarters raided over money laundering (BBC). OR, as Bloomberg put it, Deutsche Bank’s Troubles Are Donald Trump’s Troubles.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 11/30/18 07:46 PM

With Michael Cohen spending 70 hours with the prosecutor staff I just wonder. Cohen was selling access to the president for 100,000+ each. I have no idea how many accesses he sold but, I suspect, a goodly amount. Given the Jackass proclivity to run criminal enterprises I would not be surprised to learn that he took a little 'taste' for every access sold. (this is, we have been told over the years, how mob bosses get rich) Think on it - the president of the United States taking money for access to himself!

Anyway, just a thought............
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 11/30/18 08:27 PM

I like the Representative Duke Cunningham approach: He actually had a price list up on his office wall! His definition of an honest politician was one who stays bought once you've paid the bribe.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/01/18 03:24 AM

Nice article on Slate:

How Devin Nunes Helped Robert Mueller

Quote:
The irony of this new situation is that, as Susan Hennessey has observed, outgoing House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes, Rep. Mike Conaway (who purportedly led the Russia inquiry after Nunes’ quasi-recusal), lead interrogator Trey Gowdy, and the other GOP members of the committee may, wholly unintentionally, prove to have been devastatingly effective questioners in the service of future false-statement prosecutions.

Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee really encouraged Trump associates to lie, implying that there would be no consequences. They have even refused to send their hearing transcripts to Mueller, to impede him. But in January, Democrats will do that, first thing. Then Mueller will have scads of perjury charges he can use to flip witnesses.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/01/18 03:30 AM

We also need to keep in mind that pardoning someone to keep him from testifying against you, is particularly ineffective. People who have been pardoned can't use the Fifth Amendment and can be compelled to testify against you under threat of indefinite jailing and fines. And Contempt of Court or Congress is not a pardonable offense.

Manafort is going to be a great example when he gets sentenced for the state crimes he already pleaded guilty to in his plea agreement. Since he continued to lie, the judges do not have to honor the agreement, so he can get the maximum sentences in several state prisons. Just think what that's going to do for anybody Mueller charges: They are going to foul their britches and then beg for a deal.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/01/18 04:58 PM

I've spent much of the morning reading Michael Cohen's sentencing submission, and contemplating the wheels of the bus going round and round over the bodies of various Trumps... (How Michael Cohen’s Plea Deal Implicates Donald Trump Jr. (HuffPo); Cohen was in ‘close and regular contact’...ent to Congress(The Hill)). Reading between the lines, however, Cohen was doing much of this "on behalf of" Trump, but not always "at the direction of" Trump. There is still wiggle room, as there usually is for most mob bosses.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/01/18 05:20 PM

Get ready for Mueller’s end game (Salon); ROBERT MUELLER'S ENDGAME MAY BE IN SIGHT (Wired). I believe the water is building behind the dam, and Fridays are always good days for indictments. There are, presently, 14 sealed indictments in D.C. District Court that were filed in August. We can anticipate 3 of them (Stone, Corsi, Trump Jr.), but who are the other 11? I'll bet Robert Mueller knows...
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/01/18 09:03 PM

I tend to think Mueller may want to hold back for the House Intelligence Committee hearing transcripts he'll get in January. There are a LOT of Trump associates who could be flipped with potential perjury charges, in those transcripts. Also no sense in precipitating a showdown with Trump before the new House is seated.

>who are the other 11?

Maybe some lawyers who have crossed the line into criminal acts?

From quoted Wired article:
Quote:
The only question that remains: Who else in the Trump orbit should expect coal in their stocking, courtesy of Robert Mueller?


I think maybe we should speculate now on who WON'T be getting some coal? I think Melania is in the clear. She'll do alright. After she gets deported she'll go on to marry some Greek shipping magnate, Jackie O style. Baron will be okay, but will be raised by his sister Tiffany. I do think Jeff Sessions is on the hook for some stuff that made him recuse himself.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 12/02/18 08:12 PM

Watched SNL last night, they had a skit about all of this stuff (forcasting that Jackass goes down). My thought is what happens if Mueller finds NOTHING. I suspect we would have an entire nation operating under a pall of clinical depression.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/03/18 05:15 AM

Quote:
what happens if Mueller finds NOTHING


Are you rewriting history> Mueller already has indictments and convictions.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/03/18 03:41 PM

Mueller has already found a lot of something, but... There is a real question of whether there will be enough specific information to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Trump himself directed it. Trump is a well-practiced mobster. He knows to be indirect with underlings to create "plausible deniability", as implausible as his denials are. Was he in it up to his eyeballs? No doubt, but can it be proved directly? Time, and Mueller, will tell.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/03/18 04:43 PM

Quote:
Mueller already has indictments and convictions

I suspect there may be an implicit meaning of "what if there is not evidence of criminal collusion (conspiracy) or obstruction (of justice and investigation or Congress)?"

It is similar if not the same as asking, did L H Oswald shoot Pres Kennedy etal?

I think there are a couple of approaches to situations like we have. The one I like in this circumstance (only because there are only a finite number of possibilities) is to start with the premise, the Trump campaign criminally colluded with Russians to win an election.

It is relatively easy to process the premise. Start with all the campaign staff. Start with all the easily known Russian interactions. Follow the evidence. Either the accumulated evidence will meet the minimum requirements for criminal prosecution (or impeachment charges) of criminal conspiracy or it will not. In this case, the evidence should be overwhelmingly compelling or it should be dropped. There is no benefit to presenting a weak case to anyone, the public, grand jury, or Congress.

If there is not enough evidence to convince an armadillo Mr Trump or people in his campaign criminally colluded with Russians to win an election, then, clinch your jaw and accept it, and move on. There are more political battles to fight which are far more important than personal vendettas against some of the slugs who have been elected by an ignorant electorate.

Find long lasting solutions to our problems. The Founders gave us a frame work. We need to fill in the blanks.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Justice is coming - 12/03/18 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
Mueller already has indictments and convictions

I suspect there may be an implicit meaning of "what if there is not evidence of criminal collusion (conspiracy) or obstruction (of justice and investigation or Congress)?"

It is similar if not the same as asking, did L H Oswald shoot Pres Kennedy etal?

I think there are a couple of approaches to situations like we have. The one I like in this circumstance (only because there are only a finite number of possibilities) is to start with the premise, the Trump campaign criminally colluded with Russians to win an election.

It is relatively easy to process the premise. Start with all the campaign staff. Start with all the easily known Russian interactions. Follow the evidence. Either the accumulated evidence will meet the minimum requirements for criminal prosecution (or impeachment charges) of criminal conspiracy or it will not. In this case, the evidence should be overwhelmingly compelling or it should be dropped. There is no benefit to presenting a weak case to anyone, the public, grand jury, or Congress.

If there is not enough evidence to convince an armadillo Mr Trump or people in his campaign criminally colluded with Russians to win an election, then, clinch your jaw and accept it, and move on. There are more political battles to fight which are far more important than personal vendettas against some of the slugs who have been elected by an ignorant electorate.

Find long lasting solutions to our problems. The Founders gave us a frame work. We need to fill in the blanks.


Couldn't agree more!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/03/18 05:29 PM

Does THIS amount to witness tampering?

Quote:
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

“I will never testify against Trump.” This statement was recently made by Roger Stone, essentially stating that he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories about “President Trump.” Nice to know that some people still have “guts!”

7:48 AM - 3 Dec 2018

TWITTER

Maybe one of the reasons the Mueller investigation is taking so long is because Donald Trump continues to commit new crimes, every single day, it seems.

Tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/03/18 07:44 PM

Yes, yes it does. I think trump figures if he does it in the open, it's not tampering. He doubled down this morning with more corrupt intent: Trump demands stiff prison sentence for his ex-lawyer Michael Cohen (CNBC).
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/03/18 08:00 PM

all signs of narcissistic delusions

Folks ... if you do not think/believe/suspect Mr Trump "knows" he is above the law ... take another shot or puff of whatever good stuff clears your mind and reconsider
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/03/18 08:30 PM

You've hit the nail on the head, Jeff.
Quote:
(b) Whoever knowingly ... corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to—
(1) influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding;
(2) cause or induce any person to—
(A) withhold testimony, or withhold a record, document, or other object, from an official proceeding...
It doesn't matter if you sit in the White House, it is still a crime. The corruption is all that Mueller needs to establish with evidence, and I think he is well on his way to doing that.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/04/18 12:37 AM

We are getting overwhelmed by all the evidence, because Trump keeps on committing crimes and usually right in public view. Mueller does not need "murder on 5th Avenue in broad daylight". His list of actual criminal offenses is going to contain hundreds of criminal acts.

There is no "smoking gun". There's a whole armory filled with smoking guns.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/04/18 05:16 PM

A good prosecutor knows, in cases where the perpetrator continues to offend, you have to just go to court with what you have and leave the later crimes to later prosecution. I learned that when I was a prosecutor 3 decades ago. It hasn't changed since, and Mueller is a really good prosecutor.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/04/18 10:02 PM

OPINION by Tom Toles - WaPo

A fish rots from the head... and that leaves the rest of us ‘fin’-ished.


Quote:
If the edifice of a democracy is a slow, hard-won accumulation of laws and norms, let us bow our heads in sorrow to the daily eradication of norms.

Which norms? Honesty. Transparency. Humility. Dignity. Restraint. Cooperation. And did I mention honesty?


Will we actually recover from the Era of Trump, or will we witness the slow slide into banana republic status, as we are treated to an endless parade of corrupt demagogues, entitled celebrities, strongmen and vacant placeholders who pretend to govern while acting as further rubber stamps for an entrenched elite who will function as vultures stripping the carcass?


Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/05/18 06:21 AM

Quote:
“His early cooperation was particularly valuable,” Mueller writes, “because he was one of the few people with long-term and firsthand insight regarding events and issues under investigation by the SCO” (special counsel’s office).

Mueller adds that Flynn’s decision to cooperate “likely affected the decisions of related firsthand witnesses to be forthcoming with the SCO and cooperate”— and redacts the sentence that follows.
4 takeaways from Flynn sentencing memo (Vox)
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/05/18 09:37 AM

I think the degree of Flynn's cooperation has to be pretty scary for Trump et al. He has really spilled the beans on everybody, and they really need to take any deal they can get. Because Mueller knows everything! Flynn probably deserves no jail time because he really took the deal. Unlike Manafort.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/08/18 08:27 AM

It really appears from the Manafort and Cohen filings that the Trumps' geese are cooked. Moreover, Mueller is REALLY emphasizing that cooperation means FULL AND HONEST cooperation. Cohen will get 4+ years, and Manafort 10 or more. It will be hard NOT to hold impeachment hearings when conspiracy to commit election fraud had been explicitly alleged against the President. Moreover, Donald Junior and the Trump organization are directly accused of Russian collusion.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 12/08/18 06:25 PM

I wonder how the folks relying on presidential pardon are going to act if the Supremes uphold the law that kinda allows double jeopardy?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme...dy-rule-n944891

That being said there is another little point. It seems that if somebody actually gets a presidential pardon then they are, by law (apparently), forced to answer any question by a prosecutor.

Kindofa damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of deal. In this case especially for Jackass?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/08/18 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It really appears from the Manafort and Cohen filings that the Trumps' geese are cooked. Moreover, Mueller is REALLY emphasizing that cooperation means FULL AND HONEST cooperation. Cohen will get 4+ years, and Manafort 10 or more. It will be hard NOT to hold impeachment hearings when conspiracy to commit election fraud had been explicitly alleged against the President. Moreover, Donald Junior and the Trump organization are directly accused of Russian collusion.


Ahem...excuse me...
The new word for collusion is "synergy".
LOL
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/08/18 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I wonder how the folks relying on presidential pardon are going to act if the Supremes uphold the law that kinda allows double jeopardy?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme...dy-rule-n944891

That being said there is another little point. It seems that if somebody actually gets a presidential pardon then they are, by law (apparently), forced to answer any question by a prosecutor.

Kindofa damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of deal. In this case especially for Jackass?


Ahem...excuse me...
The new word for "Jackass" is now "Individual 1".
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/08/18 06:39 PM

Quote:
It will be hard NOT to hold impeachment hearings when conspiracy to commit election fraud had been explicitly alleged against the President.

hmmm ... over sex!!!???

everyone does it ... they correct the filings ... they pay a fine .... and you expect Republicans to get excited???

Quote:
Donald Junior and the Trump organization are directly accused of Russian [criminal?] collusion.

Unless SP Mueller has concrete evidence I think it will be hard to convince Trump supporters, allies, and Republicans in general (I suspect Democrats already believe Mr Trump IS Satan, so there is nothing to prove) these folks are involved in a conspiracy. I think when one tries to argue they were rubbing elbows with Russians, people expect babies.

While all the speculation sounds promising, I am still going to have to wait for THE report.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/08/18 07:45 PM

The filings said explicitly that the SCO had corroborating evidence about this stuff. Mueller has not said what that evidence is, but you can bet he has it. Stuff like incriminating emails, documents, and tax returns. And best of all, Trump's written responses to Mueller's questions that Trump claimed he wrote personally.

Paying off bimbos to influence the election hardly matters at all, in my book. What really matters is Cohen lying to Congress about the Trump Tower project timeline, and then making a public statement that it ended in January 2016. That was a signal to multiple witnesses as to what they should say to investigators. Then all of these other witnesses confirmed to Congress and the FBI (Southern District of NY and the SCO) that the project ended in January. Maybe including Trump's written answers! Then Cohen later admits it went on until June and he briefed Trump and family what was happening. Yesterday we found out the Trump Tower project could have netted the Trump Organization 100's of millions of dollars.

So federal prosecutors have stated in court (essentially under oath) that the President has co-conspired in multiple felonies. This is far worse than Watergate, and the main difference is that we have a Senate Majority that is willing to act as accessories after the fact.

This really is all about a Russian plot to steal a billion dollars from a US financier and to murder his faithful tax lawyer Sergei Magnitsky. America responded to that murder by passing the Magnitsky Act, sanctioning several Russians involved. This directly affects Putin because his position depends on protecting his oligarch buddies who have large real estate investments in America. Remember in 2014 when Eric Trump bragged about getting a lot of money from Russia? Well, Putin elected Trump because he had financial hooks into Trump, and Trump could soften or end the Magnitsky Act.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/08/18 10:35 PM

No one is surprised by Trump having extra marital affairs - he's been paying women for sex his entire life, and all his later marriages were the result of them. What IS important is that Trump knew that exposure of the newest ones (during his current marriage) would likely have affected the election, just like John Edwards. That is the criminal act and why it is so destructive. But, Republicans don't care about destruction - they do it all the time. Criminality is a constant in Republican politics.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 12:01 AM

Quote:
the SCO had corroborating evidence

The corroboration was regarding Cohen and Manafort.

Only the Cohen evidence implicated Mr Trump in campaign finance violations. So ... pay the fine and we get "No collusion".

As far as the Moscow Tower ... everyone lied, so what is the crime? No one cares about the lie, however, what is of interest is the nexus of Russian meddling and Trump's campaign. The reason this is of interest is there could be a possibility of conspiracy. Unfortunately the only evidence presented involved Cohen and his lies, and the possibility Mr Trump had knowledge of the negotiations.

So we can speculate that all that elbow rubbing produced babies or we can wait to see if there really is some evidence of a conspiracy. All it really means is investigators are in the House.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
But, Republicans don't care about destruction - they do it all the time. Criminality is a constant in Republican politics.


But the real crime is that they seem to have managed to normalize it to the point where they're convinced that they can get away with it.
I guarantee you that any Democrat who attempts the same will be met by a screaming chorus of Republicans demanding prosecution to the fullest extent of the law, and beyond.

The real crime is, Trump Republicans believe that not only is Trump above the law, but that the only real law is that which issues from his mouth as he speaks it.

The real crime is, Trump Republicans do not see America as a nation of laws, but only as a nation of men, men like Trump who utter the law as he sees fit.

We are now just another banana republic, with better shopping malls, bigger trucks and bigger highways.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 01:53 AM

Quote:
Only the Cohen evidence implicated Mr Trump in campaign finance violations. So ... pay the fine and we get "No collusion".


It doesn't work that way. Trump et al wish it did, but it doesn't. Accidental campaign finance law breaking is usually penalized by paying back the money, paying the fine and moving on. If you set out to do it knowing it is illegal and then go to great lengths to cover it up afterwards, that shows corrupt intent. That is a felony and people go to prison for it. The fact that Trump had his lawyer do it is is strong evidence that he had corrupt intent because any lawyer would have known it was illegal.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 01:59 AM

Quote:
The real crime is, Trump Republicans believe that not only is Trump above the law, but that the only real law is that which issues from his mouth as he speaks it.

The real crime is, Trump Republicans do not see America as a nation of laws, but only as a nation of men, men like Trump who utter the law as he sees fit.


Absolutely true, but it's real hard to convict anybody of those crimes.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 02:11 AM

Quote:
As far as the Moscow Tower ... everyone lied, so what is the crime? No one cares about the lie


Perjury for corrupt intent.

Bill Clinton's REAL crime is that he got a BJ under the desk in the Oval Office instead of off in some private love nest like Newt was doing at the time. Or like Kennedy did. Or like Ike did, etc. All the way back to Thomas Jefferson and probably beyond.

But he got impeached for Perjury: You have to convict people for actual simple straightforward crimes, not big nebulous possible conspiracies. I'm not saying there wasn't a big conspiracy to elect Trump with Russia help so he could kill sanctions. I bet Mueller can prove it too, with real hard documentary evidence. But he's already released enough to impeach.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 05:06 AM

I think depending on your viewpoint, this could be considered in two ways.

1. It was clear and obvious the payoff and coverup was meant to deceive Mr Trump's wife and was thus a personal affair and hence not criminal.

2. The parties involved realized the two stories would negatively impact a campaign which they did not think they could win. hmmm ... if they didn't think they could win why would they care what the impact would be?

Regardless the parties involved may have argued the case from two directions. Was it a campaign contribution or was it personal? It could only be considered a campaign contribution if the payoff was meant to deceive the public in the hope of winning the election. Since they did not believe they would win, they would have argued it was not a campaign contribution. In fact I believe every legal expert I heard stated it would be a campaign contribution if they expected the printed stories to negatively impact a winnable election. Since they did not think they could win, they would argue it was not a campaign contribution.

I think it is clear from the filing, the SCO believes it was an undeclared campaign contribution which was covered up at the direction of individual #1. However, consider this argument. Mr Trump thought he would not win. So it would stand to reason he wouldn't care if the stories came to light. In fact, if the stories were printed he may have expanded his voter support (consider the Axios video which did not negatively impact his base) and won the election. Instead he opted to hide the stories. Why? to prevent emotional trauma to his wife.

OK OK ... now suppose SP Mueller reports Mr Trump has allegedly committed some crimes. Now we come to the crux ... does DoJ file criminal charges against a sitting president? or do we have to wait until he leaves office? Impeachment? Until there are at least 20 Republicans who will vote to convict, that would be pointless.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 05:17 AM

Quote:
Perjury for corrupt intent

I don;t know about that. Cohen is charged with lying about business deals. I think you have assumed there is a crime looking for a coverup. Business deals with Russians is not a crime. Secret business deals with Russians is not a crime. Lying to the public about secret business deals with Russians is not a crime.

What is a crime is if there was a conspiracy between the campaign and the Russians. If the Trump Tower Moscow deal included provisions for the Russians helping Mr Trump win an election, then we have all of the above. But the filing does not say that. It says Cohen was approached with nefarious provisions but the deal was dropped. Cohen lied to the FBI about it ergo his charges.

Unless more is known, Cohen just got caught lying.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 06:13 AM

No: The perjury was Cohen telling congress that the deal was finished in January 2016 when it kept going until June. We shall see if Trump's written answers said the deal was finished by January or June. I'd bet a thousand bucks it said January, because Cohen told everybody that "January was the story we all should tell".

Every Trump associate who testified before Congress and said "January" has committed perjury. And not just accidental perjury, but perjury with corrupt intent because they all lied together on purpose.

Indeed, business deals with Russia are not a crime unless you do something illegal like bribe an official or do business with somebody sanctioned. Lying to the public is not a crime. Lying to a Congressional investigation IS a crime, just the same as if you lied in court under oath. Lying to the FBI in the context of an investigation is too. Does not matter at all if what you were lying about was not a crime.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 05:11 PM

I think we are in agreement on the Moscow Tower situation.

Everyone who lied in the appropriate context committed a crime. The question is whether Mr Trump lied.

We are in agreement Mr Trump allegedly committed a campaign finance violation.

We still do not know if there is enough evidence to indict anyone for criminal collusion.

While there is apparently enough evidence to indict a number of people surrounding Mr Trump for a number of criminal offenses, at this time we have to ask, is the mere possibility of lying and committing campaign finance violations enough to impeach?

Still seems to me we have to wait for the other shoe to hit the pavement to find out how or if Mr Trump was involved for possible criminal proceedings or impeachment.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 12/09/18 08:24 PM

I watched Peggy Nunan the other night. She said all this stuff is interesting but what interests her even more is that the Jackass path is strewn with rocks and everytime one gets turned over it exposes yet another swamp full of bad things, people, actions, etc. Until the Mueller thing is done, or the Dems turn up something exculpatory in the house after they take over, this is just all speculation and little else, not unlike 'news' on TV.

I think the simple fact that Jackass has managed to surround himself with criminals, liars, racists, and the greedy, I think, is simply not said enough and should be pointed out loudly and constantly. Those in opposition don't seem to be real good getting the message out and, I fear, is a fact.

There is another truth worth mentioning. Jackass and cohorts are expert at one thing over all else - the use of distraction and misdirection. Most of the speculation, in this topic, is just parroting the distractions and misdirection of Jackass and friends.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/10/18 09:27 AM

Yes, he's a scumbag. Funny thing though: You can't indict anybody for general scumbaggery. (Congress can impeach and convict for just that though.) You want punishment for crimes, you have to pick something that is a real crime. Like Perjury, Obstruction of Justice, Conspiracy to Defraud the US, Campaign Contribution Violations, Treason, etc.

He could have been charged with Voyeurism at the 1997 Miss Teen pageant but the statute of limitations is up for that. With the recent interest in the Epstein case, there is a slight possibility he could be charged with rape of a child. I know some state have ended their statute of limitations on such sex crimes.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/10/18 02:34 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think depending on your viewpoint, this could be considered in two ways.

1. It was clear and obvious the payoff and coverup was meant to deceive Mr Trump's wife and was thus a personal affair and hence not criminal.

2. The parties involved realized the two stories would negatively impact a campaign which they did not think they could win. hmmm ... if they didn't think they could win why would they care what the impact would be?
Trump has apparently tripped to this reality: President Trump defends payments to women as 'private transaction' (USA Today). The problem is twofold: 1) it's a lie ('natch), and 2) timing. If it was personal, it could have been taken care of in the decade it occurred. They were made only after the election possibility was real.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/10/18 03:18 PM

I should also note that Trump made this tweet immediately after the point was made by a FOX news contributor on "Fox and Friends", his favorite TV show.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/10/18 04:27 PM

LOL

I have to snicker at this because I think it is obvious from all his tweets and pressers. He does not possess the intellectual wherewithal to compete in a game of wits. All that hitting back crapola ... grade school ... he couldn't compete 1on1 at any level above 6th grade.

Yes ... he relies on others for more "intelligent" retorts
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/10/18 04:31 PM

the argument presented ... picture a haystack and Mr Trump standing 10' away struggling with coat askew flailing arms reaching for that single straw sticking out from the stack

when you look at all the possibilities, the one, which is not just reasonable but most likely, will stick out
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/10/18 06:16 PM

It doesn't take much corroboration when the perp admits the elements of the crime on Twitter.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/10/18 07:45 PM

like i said ... his brain does not weigh too much
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 12/10/18 08:43 PM

I think I saw something about Cohen, and unreported income (income tax thing) from selling access to Jackass. At the time I remember that he was getting something like 100,000.00+ for access to Jackass. Since this seemed to be a known fact, and that it was apparently mentioned on one of the redacted papers on Cohen it seems he may have sold a LOT of access. Now, given who he worked for does anybody think that Jackass didn't get his 'taste' of this. If they find that he did THEN we are talking about serious stuff! Given the Jackass proclivities towards mob management it would make perfect sense if Jackass didn't take a 'taste' of all moneys coming in from "other sources".

Just saying..................
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/11/18 05:40 AM

This is hilarious:
Democrats Shouldn’t Spend A Lot Of Time Investigating Trump

Quote:
We’ve investigated this for a long period of time. Both sides have come up with nothing in the process
House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy

Nothing except indictments or guilty pleas from 33 people and three companies so far. Watergate only indicted 40 people. I think this looks like the corruption world record.

Quote:
Other top Republicans have also urged Democrats not to focus on investigating the president and his associates. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), for example, said last month that moving to aggressively pursue oversight of Trump and his administration would amount to “presidential harassment.”


violin
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/11/18 06:31 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), for example, said last month that moving to aggressively pursue oversight of Trump and his administration would amount to “presidential harassment.”

violin


What are the odds that McConnell himself gets vacuumed up in the Mueller machinery somehow?

Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/11/18 08:00 PM

Before I begin, let me concede that deception and hypocrisy is endemic to politics. But, the LEVEL of hypocrisy and outright mendacity within the Republican party is at a level not seen since Joseph McCarthy. It so far outpaces Democratic sophistry that it is practically incomparable. It behooves those who are the most deceptive (e.g., McConnell, Trump) to say "everyone does it" or for the filthy pot to complain that the smudged kettle is dirty too, but let's be real. It is Trump's primary modus operandi to project his failings on any opponent, to diminish and prevaricate at such a prodigious level that it boggles most opponents. Robert Mueller is not most opponents. His report, even if it finds no direct evidence of Trump collusion, will be thorough, well-documented, and devastating. It cannot fail to be.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/11/18 08:51 PM

Quote:
It cannot fail to be.

Considering that Trump has announced most of his crimes on TV or Twitter, all it takes is some authority to make it official by writing them down and submitting them to a court.

Trump's legal defense is like saying "No homo" before spending the afternoon in a bathhouse.

Fake News = news I don't like
Witch Hunt = news I really don't like
No Collusion = Collusion
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/12/18 10:24 PM

There's a pecker joke here somewhere ...

Federal prosecutors give National Enquirer publisher immunity (CNBC)
Quote:
Federal prosecutors have given immunity to the company that publishes The National Enquirer in connection with the $150,000 hush-money payment the supermarket tabloid gave Karen McDougal, the Playboy model who claims she had an affair with President Donald Trump.

That payment to McDougal was made shortly before the 2016 presidential election and was done "to influence" that election, which sent Trump to the White House, according to the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York.

Details are important, here. There's a link in the article to the agreement, including agreed facts. Cohen was NOT the only member of the campaign to participate in these meetings.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/13/18 03:57 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
There's a pecker joke here somewhere ...

Federal prosecutors give National Enquirer publisher immunity (CNBC)[quote]Federal prosecutors have given immunity to the company that publishes The National Enquirer in connection with the $150,000 hush-money payment the supermarket tabloid gave Karen McDougal, the Playboy model who claims she had an affair with President Donald Trump.




Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/13/18 06:35 AM

The important thing about the National Enquirer deal is that they must have given Mueller something important to get such a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. Like totally sold Trump down the river. I'm sure it isn't just because Mueller is a big Enquirer fan.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/14/18 01:37 AM

I'm not sure I can keep up with the headlines! Butina flips! Trump was in the room with Cohen and Pecker! New investigation of Trump inauguration committee! And, tomorrow is Friday...
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/14/18 01:59 AM

BTW, I've been wondering about how aggressive the SDNY US Attorney has been in pursuing Trump, etc. So, I looked him up: Geoffrey Berman. A) he worked on Iran Contra, B) he's been an Assistant US Attorney, and C) he was appointed by the District Court after Jeff Sessions appointed him as interim US Attorney, because Trump has made no appointment. His loyalty is to the law.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 12/14/18 06:16 PM

I remain convinced that the Jackass Administration is a criminal enterprise. Everything we have learned, so far, would tend to support that belief. If it is correct then the 'boss' is taking a 'little taste' of everything his underlings have been able to beg, borrow, or steal. I believe that because that is how criminal enterprises are run.

I also believe that, eventually, we will learn that Jackass put a little bit into his pockets. A little bit of his coronation expenses, a little bit of his election expenses, you know, a little bit from everything. The Saudis, for instance, are booking all sorts of rooms in his hotels. They don't use the rooms, just pay for them. This goes on and on and, I also think, just about everybody knows about it. My fond hope is that the prosecutor knows a LOT more than anybody else and part of that is the ability to prove the criminal enterprise. Once that gets done we will then also get to watch the Republican lovers of their dear leader explain it all to us.

Just waiting for Justice to come!
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/14/18 06:20 PM

Although I don't do it often, it is occasionally illuminating to see how TrumpTV is spinning the day's news: Former FEC commissioners: Trump-Cohen 'hush' payments not necessarily a violation (Fox). (I'm not sure that it is even rational to discuss Fox as a "news" organization anymore. It is an organ of the Trump administration, pure and simple. The fact that they are integrated so deeply and coordinated so thoroughly demonstrates this every day.) The fact that they had to turn to a Bush recess appointed FEC member, Hans Von Spakovsky - who couldn't get a confirmation because of his obvious bias - and the FEC member and chairman, Bradley Smith, widely considered the worst FEC appointment ever made - proves so much.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/14/18 08:42 PM

I had a fantasy thought, earlier. What if the secret subpoena fight (Reporters shooed away as mystery Mueller subpoena fight rages on - politico) IS about Trump, and he loses. Then, Trump, like Nixon, resigns so that he can get a pardon from Pence. Pence, though, is so feckless, and mired in Trump muck that his presidency collapses...
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/14/18 09:17 PM

shrooooms
Posted by: Ken Condon

Re: Justice is coming - 12/15/18 01:08 AM

Quote:
shrooooms


Is that the sound of history passing by licitly split?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/15/18 07:31 AM

Trump is looking for a new Chief of Staff and everybody is running out the door! Apparently, they all think that's a good way to wind up in prison. Nobody wants to be the Main Steward on the Trumptanic.

It will be interesting to see if Sessions gets charged with anything. I know he met with the Russian Ambassador (and probably discussed ending sanctions) and then lied about it to Congress. He recused himself very early on, and he probably had a real good reason for doing that. Has Mueller had Sessions in "for a talk" now that he's a private citizen and not Mueller's boss? Has Sessions flipped to make that "Get Out Of Jail" card valid? John Mitchel was Nixon's AG and he did 2 years in the Big House.
Posted by: Bored Member

Re: Justice is coming - 12/15/18 05:15 PM

If you compare this to the atrocities committed in Viet Nam and Cambodia in the 60s & 70s or the invasion of Iraq and the murders of 100s of thousands of civilians in the 2000s and nobody in a position of power has been charged with war crimes, this too will be a minor blip on the radar if history and Trump will die of old age in the comfort of his penthouse.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/15/18 07:02 PM

the difference is between government policies and personal corruption. Both will have their place in historical ignominy.

I believe the Grand Experiment is a Work in Progress and my hope is we learn the right lessons from our mistakes.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/15/18 08:46 PM

It appears Trump wants Mick Mulvaney as Chief of Staff, yes?
Oops...by installing a Senate confirmed official as CoS, it seems Trump might now be the first POTUS to have a Chief of Staff that can be forced to testify before Congress.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/16/18 04:32 PM

Mick Mulvaney is SUCH an appropriate pick for the Trump White House Chief of Staff. He's a pure a*hole, gets along with nobody, says atrocious things into microphones because he has no soul. Just like his boss. Where he is different, though, is that he is a fanatic.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 12/17/18 10:24 PM

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yv54dj/george-bush-and-tony-blair-are-war-criminals-obv
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/19/18 11:10 PM

POLL: Majority say sitting presidents should be subject to indictment

Quote:
"Seventy-one percent of respondents, including 49 percent of Republicans, said sitting presidents should be subject to indictment, while 21 percent said they shouldn't. Thirty-eight percent of GOP respondents opposed allowing criminal charges to be brought against a president who's in office."
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 12/20/18 05:08 AM

Quote:
Thirty-eight percent of GOP respondents opposed allowing criminal charges to be brought against a president who's in office."


Unless it was a Democrat....
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/20/18 04:49 PM

Why was this poll taken?

The Founders did not envision any one person or group to be above the law or beyond the reach of the law. Any poll which asks if any one is, intimates the Founders thought some singular person would be impervious to legal imperatives.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/21/18 06:53 AM

Mueller team reaching difficult decision: Can Donald Trump be tried as an adult?
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/21/18 03:08 PM

you know ... you know ...

I recently had an argument with my brother (a former persecutor[sic]) regarding competency of Mr Trump to stand trial. I argued since he was a narcissist, he is irrational and would therefore be unable to assist his defense counsel in his defense. I had convinced myself the law would recognize irrationality as a defect which would not just diminish aide but rebut aide.

After doing some research on this, it is clear Mr Trump passes all the legal tests on competency (despite my belief the law is wrong on this issue). As to an age requirement, it would again be clear the law recognizes only chronological age as the requisite (despite the fact his mental age is in dispute).

Yeah ... should charges be filed, he is good to go for trial ... smile (that's my imprimatur)
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/21/18 08:15 PM

Of course he WILL perjure himself in the first five minutes of testimony. So there is that. I think if he ever gets to court of sits down with Mueller, he's already lost. Just those written answers he sent Mueller probably contained provably false statements, since he thought everybody was going with Cohen's previous version of events.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/22/18 06:04 PM

My question is: Will Donald Trump, Jr. be indicted before the end of the year? Napolitano: Trump Jr. thinks he will be indicted by Mueller (the Hill). It's really no surprise, as Donald Jr. knows he lied to Congress, and that is something Cohen pled guilty to.

Do you think that is why Whitaker refused to recuse?

Since everyone knows Donald Jr. perjured himself, could that be leverage to get Donald Senior to agree to a sit-down interview?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: Justice is coming - 12/22/18 06:44 PM

I don't post in this thread since I don't have much of an opinion, one way or the other. It is instructive, I suppose, to pay attention and watch the legal trade work it's profession. One guy I've paid attention to is Dollar Bill's labor secratary Rob Reich.
I like his almost deep throat style conversations with his Republican buddy with insider contacts and opinions.
Here's the latest of that series. Thought you might enjoy.

But remember....

It's Christmas!
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/22/18 11:02 PM

I think you are thinking Mr Trump is a rational actor. He is a narcissist. It is about him first and foremost. The pieces are in place. He is waiting for confirmation of an AG. The plan is, and has been all along, for the dissolution of the SCO, when the investigation gets too close. (This assumes there are secrets he does not want publicized, whether they are personal or criminal.)

The backup plan for "others" has been the presidential pardon. He will use it loosely, freely, and often.

So his options are two, does he have enough money to keep him out of jail, after he become an ex, and does Russia have a nice palatial dacha waiting for him, regardless?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/23/18 03:11 AM

Pardoning people who can testify against you is a supremely stupid idea: They lose the ability to invoke the Fifth Amendment and can be compelled to testify or go to jail. It works when you want to troll your enemies by pardoning wacko Sheriffs. Doesn't work so good when you are the capo!

Also the idea that the Mueller investigation goes away when you fire Mueller is totally nuts: First thing the House would do is to subpoena Mueller and get him to tell them EVERYTHING. Members of the Intelligence Committee are security cleared to investigate anything they want, so Trump can't slap Top Secret on it and hide it from them. Doing that just makes it all public ASAP. If you leave Mueller alone, he might write a final report the AG can sit on for a while. Of course, if that happens the Intelligence committee proceeds anyway.

I think Trump's options are narrowed to Martial Law or flight into exile if he wants to escape justice.
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: Justice is coming - 12/23/18 04:59 PM

You forget one thing, the President makes the security policy. As such can revoke, de-certify, change, grant, certify, basically do anything he wants when it comes to security clearances and access to classified material. For example, with a stroke of his crayon he can remove all clearances from every member of the Intel committee...

Now would it be a smart move? The current occupant of the White House has never been known for his smarts...
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/23/18 06:52 PM

My point was that he could look at everything, if he knew to ask for it. But it just isn't in his character to do that. He would have to read a lot of very long boring documents and follow a complex document trail, and few of the important ones even mention his name!

Theoretically, he could launch a nuclear attack on Iran too, but at some point the people around him are going to stop him. When he does something insane, everyone (but maybe Bolton) will agree it's Amendment 25 time and lock him in a rubber room.


Still, there are things he CAN'T do, and he found out another one today: He can't fire the Fed chief. He can't control the House or Senate, unless they let him. He can't make Mexico pay for the wall. He can't fire a Supreme Court Justice, or even tell them what to do.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/23/18 09:08 PM

I have never thought that Donald Trump is a rational actor. He is erratic, unintelligent, uninterested, and corrupt, but those are just his good attributes. Rational is not amongst his strengths. He is, however, a classic narcissist, so he is predictable and manipulable. Just ask Putin, or Erdogan, or Netanyahu, or Xi. Autocrats know how to push his buttons.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/23/18 11:45 PM

OK so I have a question.

Suppose Individual 1 knows Individual 2 has committed what he believes to be a crime (labelled A), but is not a party to the suspected criminal act.

Is it a crime for Individual 1 to not report a suspected crime? Individual 1 does not have to take the 5th because he has not committed a crime. So Individual 1 may get a pardon for an unrelated crime, not involving Individual 2. Even though he may testify to his crime, why would he be compelled to testify regarding Crime A, involving Individual 2? and even if he was involved in a two party crime involving individual 2 for which he did not receive a pardon, how could he be compelled to testify? If there were evidence implicating both Individual 1 and 2, their testimony would not be necessary.

Basically if there were hard evidence to substantiate a crime, testimony from the perpetrators would be unnecessary. If SP Mueller only had an allegation of impropriety, then everyone allegedly involved could simply claim ignorance. Thus if everyone got a pardon and there was no hard evidence to prove a crime had been committed, it wouldn't matter if the 5th was no longer in effect. All the alleged perpetrators would simply deny knowledge of the crime.

I think this all comes back to one of my original questions 2 years ago. If the best the SCO has is the perception of impropriety, the questions regarding pardons and the 5th are moot.

All of this of course pertains to the Russia question. I suspect if SP Mueller finds evidence of criminal activities involving Trump Org, Congress will give him a pass and tolerate the insanity for another 2 years.

just spitballing
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 12/24/18 12:35 AM

Not really the way prosecutors work. They get documentary hard evidence, but when they go to court they want to present people who were there when the crime took place. A lot of eye witness testimony is worthless (he LOOKS like the guy who robbed the bank), but when the witness is an associate of the defendant they offer the jury a compelling case.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 12/24/18 06:29 AM

Putting on my lawyer hat for a moment...

1) Generally it is not a crime to NOT report the crime of another, although there are exceptions (as with an ongoing criminal conspiracy, which may or may not be pertinent here), in which case suppressing the information (or lying to authorities about it) may constitute being an accessory;

2) If someone has been pardoned, they cannot "take the fifth" with regard to their activities for which they have been pardoned, since they cannot "incriminate themselves" with regard to that testimony. If, however, they lie (perjure) under oath, they can be charged with that crime, and they can be placed in contempt of court (or Congress) if they refuse (like Susan McDougal). This is somewhat different than immunity, which can be broader in application. Often someone who has been pardoned will be granted immunity for other uncharged misconduct so that they can be compelled to testify.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/30/18 09:09 PM

Quote:
Boyarkin says it fell to him to collect the debt from Manafort. “I came down on him hard,” he says. But the American proved elusive. In a petition filed in the Cayman Islands in 2014, lawyers for Deripaska, a metals tycoon with close ties to the Kremlin, complain that Manafort and his then-partner had “simply disappeared” with around $19 million of the Russian’s money.

When he reappeared in the headlines around April 2016, Manafort was serving as an unpaid adviser to the Trump campaign. He wanted his long-time patron in Moscow to know all about it.


Russian Ex-Spy Pressured Manafort Over Debts to an Oligarch

All we have to do is compare patterns and models. Maria Butina with the NRA, Manafort with Deripaska, Trump with Putin.
These patterns are all very similar, with similar and predictable results.

The guy in charge of Trump's campaign was already "super double fudge sundae with cherries on top f***ked".
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 12/31/18 12:37 AM

In other news, it looks like someone might just be getting indicted tomorrow!

Roger Stone turns on Jerome Corsi: He worked with Mueller to 'sandbag me'

Quote:
"So Jerry Corsi was working with Mueller to sandbag me on a fabricated perjury charge."


Roger Stone on Instagram
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 12/31/18 12:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
In other news, it looks like someone might just be getting indicted tomorrow!

Roger Stone turns on Jerome Corsi: He worked with Mueller to 'sandbag me'

Quote:
"So Jerry Corsi was working with Mueller to sandbag me on a fabricated perjury charge."


Roger Stone on Instagram

Good. I hope Roger's Nixon "tramp stamp" get lots of use in prison. coffee
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 12/31/18 10:06 PM

He has a get out of jail free card. He will pass GO and collect $200.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/01/19 03:25 AM

Quote:
I hope Roger's Nixon "tramp stamp" get lots of use in prison.


I normally don't advocate prison rape, but...
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/02/19 12:30 PM



Are you Ranters familiar with a mysterious grand jury subpoena case has been working itself through the D.C. courts since August?

Some have speculated that the secret subpoena battle might be President Donald Trump himself. Speculation heightened two weeks ago when the D.C. Circuit cleared an entire floor of reporters assembled for the oral argument, in order to protect the identity of the litigants.

Four days later, the D.C. Circuit judges burst the speculative bubble with a decision that halfway revealed the identity of the party litigating against the government: not Trump, but an unnamed corporation (“the Corporation”) owned by an unnamed foreign state (“Country A”). The evident fact that Trump was not directly involved in the litigation seemingly drained further proceedings of direct suspense.

(But wait! There's more! smile )

Then on the Sunday before Christmas, Chief Justice John Roberts personally intervened in this matter. shocked The chief justice blocked the District Court’s order requiring the foreign corporation to comply with the grand jury subpoena, until the government’s lawyers could respond to the Corporation’s briefings.

Robert's decision revealed that a regulator from Country A had filed a submission claiming that compliance with the subpoena would cause the Corporation to violate Country A’s law. So whoever Country A is, this matter captured its officials’ attention and prompted them to send filings to a faraway country to block the subpoena. Why does Country A care? And, what is it trying to hide?

The state-owned Corporation filed an appeal with the Supreme Court, which receives roughly 7,000 petitions a year but acts in fewer than 200 of them. There was unanimity below - all four judges (the District Court judge and the three Circuit Court judges) had agreed that the Corporation and Country A’s legal claims of sovereign immunity and of contrary foreign law were without merit.

Roberts evidently harbors some doubt about the lower court's decision. Something in the Corporation’s papers caught his attention. So rather than consigning this appeal to the discard pile with thousands of others, he has blocked the lower courts’ decisions until he can receive the government’s briefs defending those decisions. Those papers were to be filed no later than New Year’s Eve.

Speculation A: It is the Russian oil company Rosneft Oil where Trump was given a percentage of ownership for his assist in addressing the sanctions Obama placed on the Russians, per the Steele Dossier. Hmm

Speculation B: I don't have one. SEE: Speculation A smile
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/02/19 04:16 PM

I do not understand how any US court can order a foreign company to comply with US laws.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 01/02/19 08:51 PM

Gov can, however, stop them from operating in the United States. This means that whatever company it is I betcha it does a lot of business here. Better yet, gov can say; "We want to know what you are doing in this country and we want to see your books, if not - bye!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/03/19 02:36 AM

I'm betting on Deutsche Bank. Most of Trump's money lately has come through them.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/03/19 03:19 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I'm betting on Deutsche Bank. Most of Trump's money lately has come through them.

It's a corporation owned by country. Germany doesn't own Deutche Bank.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/03/19 07:29 PM

OK I am not able to find a "known" name of a state owned bank which has been in the news. There is one possibility "Vnesheconombank". It's Russian and apparently deals in real estate development.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 01/03/19 08:48 PM

if you google "deutsche bank money laundering scandal" you will find stuff like:
https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-banks-5-biggest-scandals/a-46510219

I remember when they were caught laundering money for the drug cartels. They freely admitted that they had been doing it for years. Since they were very rich nobody ever did any time, just paid gigantic fines. If have mentioned this one before. The simple fact is that white collar crime is not punished, except by fine, so nobody goes to jail if they have the bucks. This, I think, is somewhat different from the "justice for all" business.

What really get interesting is that we throw lowly drug dealers in prison forever, we throw pregnant women in jail for a pittance, and people stealing food get to do time too. On the other hand, if you got the bucks you can do stuff with no problem. Create false documents to 'prove' you can foreclose on somebody's house? No problem, bit of a fine and little else and screw them that got screwed over (Bank of America has been doing this dance for years). There are lots of examples of this kind of stuff be we are arguing, with a psycho president, over a wall all experts agree is a complete and utter waste of money. Then general consensus is that he should get this money because it really isn't much (only 5 billion dollars). I live in a town of about 19,000 One billion dollars would, I think, buy the entire town, locks stock and inhabitants. It would also build a great hospital and pave a lot of road. None of that, however, is getting even talked about. The talk is just distraction. We have become a nation of distracted, entertained, lazy, and very angry idiots! The entertainment part is particularly interesting as it tends to consist, basically, with watching tv talking heads speculate about whatever. Real news seems to be a kindofa filler and little else.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 02:11 AM

deutsche bank is not state owned as far as I can tell.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 03:17 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
OK I am not able to find a "known" name of a state owned bank which has been in the news. There is one possibility "Vnesheconombank". It's Russian and apparently deals in real estate development.

I never wrote it was a bank. I wrote state-owned corporation. I'm sticking with Rosneft Oil per the Steele Dossier. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 03:18 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
deutsche bank is not state owned as far as I can tell.

It's not.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
...If have mentioned this one before. The simple fact is that white collar crime is not punished, except by fine, so nobody goes to jail if they have the bucks. This, I think, is somewhat different from the "justice for all" business.

What really get interesting is that we throw lowly drug dealers in prison forever, we throw pregnant women in jail for a pittance, and people stealing food get to do time too. On the other hand, if you got the bucks you can do stuff with no problem. Create false documents to 'prove' you can foreclose on somebody's house? No problem, bit of a fine and little else and screw them that got screwed over (Bank of America has been doing this dance for years).

I've never thought about jail-time in that way before. But, you're mostly right. Bernie Madoff went to prison. Hmm
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 05:35 AM

Are there 20 Republican Senators of principle? I don't think so, yet. It makes a difference when considering overriding vetoes or a President who engages in criminal activities from the White House.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 03:20 PM

OK I found this speculation on possibility.

Trump Russia Dossier Decoded: Yes, There Really Was A Massive Oil Deal
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 03:26 PM

Have to agree and it has been that way for a time now.

I think I have said this preciously, the "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors" has to be so egregious it moves a huge public outcry. So the question is, what would move his base to respond? It is not enough never-Trumpers and the patent opposition make an outcry. Some significant portion of his base has to be moved.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 07:16 PM

You are right about Madoff. However, they also stripped him of whatever he had and he was an individual. Banks, however, are not individuals nor are they stripping said banks of everything and sending the bad guys to jail. Instead the individuals all skate and the bank gets to pay the fine. Basically, the bad guys not only get to skate but their business pays the fines so they just stay rich and quite competent to figure out the next raping of clients.

I was going to say that Madoff wrecked his clients but the banks don't do that. Then I remembered the foreclosures on homes the banks didn't actually own by creating false documents (Bank of America, caught 2 times doing this one). I also remembered when Wells Fargo blithely started charging clients for accounts they didn't know they had been gifted with by Wells Fargo (and charged for). Anyway, the simple fact is that the banks are not all that kindly towards their clients either!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/04/19 10:07 PM

Quote:
banks are not all that kindly towards their clients either!


No, but on the most part, they deliver fantastic services to their clients for almost no money. I can transfer thousands of dollars between banks, credit union, and investment accounts for NOTHING AT ALL: Zero dollars. They insure my accounts (again for zero dollars), keep them safe, and don't even charge account fees because I keep a few thousand in the account.

Now contrast that with California weed businesses that are not allowed to use banks. They have great piles of cash sitting around that can be stolen. They have to take piles of cash to pay their taxes. I don't even know how they pay their state and federal taxes. Take cash to buy money orders at Postal Annex? Use Starbucks gift cards?
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314

Great find, rporter314!!! smile

Oh my, look at all of these dead Ruskies, some from the Steele Dossier and a Michael Cohen family relative. coffee
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 11:39 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
...what would move his base to respond...

No wall. Seriously. Hmm
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 05:14 PM

Yes no wall does move his base but not in the way I intimated.

What would move his base to support impeachment proceedings? After listening to some Trump supporters yesterday, I would say they would follow him all the way to hell.

I predict, based on personal experiences and reading a lot of Trump supporter reporting, they will not abandon him, which implies, despite the facts which should defy anyone's imagination, very few Republicans would vote for conviction, and for several reasons.

Rep Tlaib, your interest in impeachment is a fruitless excercize in congressional oversight.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
You are right about Madoff. However, they also stripped him of whatever he had and he was an individual.

Madoff was destroyed because he dared to rip off the one percent. You don't ever rip off the one percent. Look at Cuba.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314

What would move his base to support impeachment proceedings? After listening to some Trump supporters yesterday, I would say they would follow him all the way to hell.


Crackheads (and I am a former one) will follow crack rocks all the way to Hell. Trumpism is a DRUG.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 07:11 PM

Interesting discussion of the pattern of criminality and RICO prosecution, with regards to Trump:

Ruminations on RICO and Asset Forfeiture

Most interesting is that elements in the pattern can include settled civil cases and No Contest pleas that resulted in fines for the last 10 years! So many Trump Organization acts qualify it for RICO prosecution. Such prosecution only requires two such acts, but the Trump organization has committed thousands of frauds in the last 10 years. The Trump University findings alone contain over 5000 acts of fraud. Trump's phony charitable Foundation is a whole additional element: Every single solicited donation that was misused is another fraud.

So when a Democratic President has a real unfettered Justice Department, Trump is toast. And probably penniless.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Interesting discussion of the pattern of criminality and RICO prosecution, with regards to Trump:

Ruminations on RICO and Asset Forfeiture

Most interesting is that elements in the pattern can include settled civil cases and No Contest pleas that resulted in fines for the last 10 years! So many Trump Organization acts qualify it for RICO prosecution. Such prosecution only requires two such acts, but the Trump organization has committed thousands of frauds in the last 10 years. The Trump University findings alone contain over 5000 acts of fraud. Trump's phony charitable Foundation is a whole additional element: Every single solicited donation that was misused is another fraud.

So when a Democratic President has a real unfettered Justice Department, Trump is toast. And probably penniless.


Does anyone remember when I posted wistfully that asset forfeiture was something only visited upon "little people" and that if law enforcement is going to play that game they'd better be prepared to take down some large kingpins at the same time?

Oh God, I sure hope they do a little bit of forfeiting on Individual 1.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

So when a Democratic President has a real unfettered Justice Department, Trump is toast. And probably penniless.


It won't take a Democratic President, it only takes law enforcement with the will to pull the trigger. If there is "reasonable suspicion" that the individual or group has been engaged in enriching themselves through fraudulent and criminal activity, said assets may be preemptivlely seized "pending further criminal investigation".

Mueller could order Mar-A-Lago seized right now if he wanted to.
It is no different than a cop looking at a fat wad of cash in a motorist's wallet and confiscating the "guilty dirty money".
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 10:00 PM

If the asset forfeiture rules were applied evenly to everybody, Trump would have been living in a cardboard box behind a supermarket years ago. Or still in prison.

I find it shocking that police have confiscated cash, cars, and houses from people who have not been convicted of any crime. Often just "Being Hispanic with a lot of cash in his pocket".
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 01/05/19 11:21 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
If the asset forfeiture rules were applied evenly to everybody, Trump would have been living in a cardboard box behind a supermarket years ago. Or still in prison.

I find it shocking that police have confiscated cash, cars, and houses from people who have not been convicted of any crime. Often just "Being Hispanic with a lot of cash in his pocket".


But there seems to be a growing suggestion that, just this once, they might be applied to Trump. Not ready to take it to the bank yet but I'll just say that I decided not to toss out my S&H Green Stamp book.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/06/19 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
What would move his base to support impeachment proceedings? After listening to some Trump supporters yesterday, I would say they would follow him all the way to hell.

Trump's base has a seething resentment of the United States government for foisting Affirmative Action on them, for foisting gay marriage on them, for insuring that poor minorities have enough food to eat - and making Trump's supporters pay for it, for putting other religions on par, or above, their own beloved Christianity. Hmm

...but they'll never be honest enough to admit it. If you read their comments on public forums - it's all there if you put it all tougher. shocked

Trump's base also recongizes that Russia - at least the Northern western part, is all white - a fact that doesn't escape them. Hmm
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 01/06/19 03:50 AM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
What would move his base to support impeachment proceedings?


All I know is, it is now "even money" according to popular oddsmakers.

DONALD TRUMP IS EVEN MONEY TO BE IMPEACHED (PSST, DONALD - THAT’S BAD NEWS)

Quote:
"Donald Trump’s odds to be impeached by the House of Representatives are EVEN – the highest they’ve ever been. The latest betting odds released by BetOnline have Trump’s odds of being impeached by the House at +100."



WILL DONALD TRUMP BE IMPEACHED BY THE HOUSE?
Odds
Yes +100
No -140

WILL DONALD TRUMP LAST HIS FULL FIRST TERM?
Odds
Yes -300
No +200

WILL DONALD TRUMP LEAVE OFFICE VIA IMPEACHMENT?
Odds
Yes +600
No -1500

WILL DONALD TRUMP RESIGN THE PRESIDENCY IN HIS FIRST TERM?
Odds
Yes +350
No -600
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/06/19 04:54 PM

OK, I believe you have missed the point. You have pointed out the obvious stats on the House filing charges. No problem, I suspect the odds given are probably close to right.

Here is the problem. Senate Republicans are not supporting a conviction. The putative reason is the BASE support and will continue to support Mr Trump and if any of them turn on Mr Trump the BASE will primary them with a more extreme (if you can grasp that) candidate who has pledged fealty to Mr Trump. So as long as the BASE (maybe we can start calling them Trump's al Qaeda) supports Mr Trump, Senate Republicans will not vote to convict.

Thus, if the BASE were to reduce their support for Mr Trump, it would allow some Senate Republicans the opportunity to vote for conviction and not be primaried. So what would change the BASES support?

Rick pointed out some of the many reasons the BASE continues support for Mr Trump i.e. basically they hate everything about the OTHER. None of that will change. (See comment on shooting in Times Square). Mr Trump will continue to cater to his BASE. There are too many reasons these folks will not reduce the level of their support for Mr Trump, which means Senate Republicans will not abandon Mr Trump.

Despite the probability the House will file charges, it will become a meaningless political gesture, unless Trump's BASE abandons him, and the probability of that happening are ... nil ... zero ... nada ...etc

I suspect the only redress to lift the yoke of the pall which has covered America, is to electorally remove Mr Trump from office.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/06/19 05:53 PM




Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 01/08/19 09:07 PM

Russian Lawyer At Trump Tower Meeting Charged In Connection To Money Laundering Case (npr). Coincidence?
Posted by: Ken Condon

Re: Justice is coming - 01/08/19 09:32 PM

Want me wunna them hats rick.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/09/19 04:59 AM


Trump Tower is the symbol of money-laundering. Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/09/19 04:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Want me wunna them hats rick.

smile
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/14/19 08:15 AM

Interesting little article about how the system failed:

Trump Was Never Vetted

Quote:
A recent Patrick Radden Keefe profile of Mark Burnett reveals how the reality television producer turned Trump into a commanding business tycoon. “We walked through the offices and saw chipped furniture,” one Apprentice producer recalls in the piece. “We saw a crumbling empire at every turn. Our job was to make it seem otherwise.”

The Apprentice depicted Trump not as a bankrupt crook but as a wealthy genius, for whose favor a cast of supplicants would compete. The show revolved around competing business ideas that Trump would oversee. The problem was that Trump — just as he does in the White House — made irrational and bizarre choices. He “was frequently unprepared for these sessions, with little grasp of who had performed well. Sometimes a candidate distinguished herself during the contest only to get fired, on a whim, by Trump.” Keefe reports that in such instances, the producers would edit the footage to make Trump’s foolish decisions appear wise. Tens of millions of Americans voted for a television character they took to be some reasonable approximation of a real person.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/14/19 07:12 PM

Pretty good article about the very bad effects of ignoring past administration's crimes:

Prosecute Trump to the Full Extent of the Law

Quote:
There is a reason that “Equal Justice Under Law” is carved into the physical architecture of the Supreme Court above its primary west entrance. Far, far too often, America has not been a society where we are all actually subject to law equally. And yet the notion that politicians and billionaires are supposed to be the same under the law as the poor and the oppressed is a powerful principle. This aspiration is necessary for the development of a sense of community and has served as a powerful impetus for America becoming generally less unfair over time.


Nixon's pardons, Reagan's pardons, and Bush (Senior and Junior) pardons all lead directly to Trump: Somebody who actually campaigned on being a criminal, because crime has no consequences for the rich and powerful. If we want to break that deadly cycle we have to stop ignoring crimes.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 01/14/19 10:55 PM

I watched a discussion about whether them in TV should actually run Trump speeches live. There seems to be a growing consensus that they should not and, at the very least, all lies edited out of said speeches. I have no idea if such should come to pass but, for me, ITS ABOUT TIME!
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: Justice is coming - 01/15/19 12:41 AM

That is Censorship.

The news just needs to do what they are doing now; airing the story, showing us the facts and pointing out the contradictions.

Or just not air any story which in and of itself is censorship.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/15/19 05:06 AM

I think it's fine to air Trump's speeches uncensored, but they should reserve the bottom quarter of the screen for a huge "LIE" legend they flash when he tells a whopper. After all, it is news that he said those things just like it's news that they were lies. The problem with analyzing the speech later for truthfulness is that his fans just shut off the set after he stops speaking. By not presenting the two streams concurrently they are failing to serve the public.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 01/15/19 11:40 AM

If indictments start flowing from the Mueller probe, a big if, I'm going to make a surprise prediction: Devin Nunes may be indicted as a conspirator. Consider his bizarre behavior at the start of the process, and his involvement in fund-raising for the inaugural committee. One of the potential charges is illegal foreign contributions, which he was in position to know about. What if he was trying to cover up his own participation?
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 01/15/19 08:27 PM

TV networks charge for advertising, pure and simple. When jackass gives a speech its advertising, pure and simple. That being the case I don't think that can actually be called censorship. This would be especially true with lies as they sure as hell can't be construed as something that is of any real importance.

I do not, for instance, listen to anything Jackass says because it has nothing to do with anything but himself. Same holds true with Kellyanne and the the other spokesperson. Waste of time. I treat ads the same way. If any of them say anything that actually has content of interest its always addressed by the talking heads so why bother?

The problem with doing live truth checking is that errors might occur due to time constraints which is, I suspect, why we don't have something like that right now.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/16/19 01:17 AM

I think you are right about Nunes: He probably gets indicted as a participant in the conspiracy. Just because his parts in it failed spectacularly, doesn't make them any less criminal.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/18/19 08:16 AM

CNN is reporting Trump ordered Cohen to lie to Congress:

Trump Told Michael Cohen To Lie

Apparently Cohen told this all to the Mueller team, and Mueller has emails and documents that back up his story. That's called Suborning Perjury (essentially conspiracy to commit perjury), and it's coequal to Perjury. That's not perjury about a blow job. It's perjury about Trump's relationship with Russia. It's probably about the involvement with the Moscow tower throughout the campaign, and Trump may very well have told the same lie to Mueller in his written answers, since that lie was the "story" Cohen was coordinating with everybody before he confessed to Mueller.

I think the final Mueller Report is going to contain more than one documented case for impeachment.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/18/19 12:52 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Speculation A: It is the Russian oil company Rosneft Oil where Trump was given a percentage of ownership for his assist in addressing the sanctions Obama placed on the Russians, per the Steele Dossier. Hmm

Speculation B: I don't have one. SEE: Speculation A smile

I have a Speculation B now. smile

Speculation B: Fatboy wanted a Trump Tower so badly, he was planning one, signed a letter of intent, then his big, fat, mouth and asinine over-inflated ego caused the neurotic son-of-a-bitch and hot-mess, to run for President, that the Trump Tower - Moscow was put on hold. When rumors of Fatboy's financial cozy relationships with Russia appeared in the press, Fatboy lied about said relationships, as he always does. Putin probably slightly jabbing at Fatso said: "I tell about your intent to build a Tower in Moscow - and Fatboy seeing he put himself in a corner became a little frightened. Then Putin saw that Fatboy was under his spell and told Fatboy to get rid of Obama's 2014 sanctions, and Fatboy did at the Republican National Convention.

It is through a series of minor lies, that have now snowballed into one gigantic FUBAR that there is no turning back for Fatboy.

America must now Impeach the walking, talking, rectum commonly known as an ässhole. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/18/19 12:56 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think it's fine to air Trump's speeches uncensored, but they should reserve the bottom quarter of the screen for a huge "LIE" legend they flash when he tells a whopper. After all, it is news that he said those things just like it's news that they were lies. The problem with analyzing the speech later for truthfulness is that his fans just shut off the set after he stops speaking. By not presenting the two streams concurrently they are failing to serve the public.

Better yet, they should have a digital meter counting the lies like a slot machine at the bottom of the screen. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/18/19 12:56 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
If indictments start flowing from the Mueller probe, a big if, I'm going to make a surprise prediction: Devin Nunes may be indicted as a conspirator. Consider his bizarre behavior at the start of the process, and his involvement in fund-raising for the inaugural committee. One of the potential charges is illegal foreign contributions, which he was in position to know about. What if he was trying to cover up his own participation?

Bow
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/18/19 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
CNN is reporting Trump ordered Cohen to lie to Congress:

Trump Told Michael Cohen To Lie

Yup big story when I woke-up this morning. Missed all of the news last night - no TV at all.

(Somebody did his taxes last night and has filed electronically already. gobsmacked , coffee)
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 01/18/19 04:44 PM

From the Washington Post story citing BuzzFeed:
Quote:
Barr, who was previously attorney general under President George H.W. Bush, left little doubt about his views in an unsolicited memo addressed to the Justice Department last year. Made public by the Wall Street Journal in December, the 20-page document criticized Mueller for apparently focusing on actions that Barr claimed did not constitute obstruction, such as firing government employees.

But Barr was clear about what he called criminal obstruction in the “classic sense” — “sabotaging a proceeding’s truth-finding function." In his June 2018 memo, the attorney and member of the Republican Party laid out acts amounting to obstruction: “Thus, for example, if a President knowingly destroys or alters evidence, suborns perjury, or induces a witness to change testimony, or commits any act deliberately impairing the integrity or availability of evidence, then he, like anyone else, commits the crime of obstruction.”
It is ironic that William Barr would make that statement, since that is exactly what he counseled George Bush to do when he was last Attorney general. Barr is completely unsuited to be Attorney General because he, himself, suborned obstruction by advising Bush to pardon the Iran-contra conspirators on his way out of office. That meets Barr's own definition of obstruction! Bush could/should have been prosecuted for that abuse of power, since he had already been implicated in the conspiracy. Although I genuinely liked and respected the elder Bush, that final act was deeply offensive - and illegal. If Bush had been prosecuted, it would put a whole different face on the current peril we are in. Barr is directly responsible for Trump.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/18/19 05:04 PM

I have to concur on the Iran-Contra pardon's. Perhaps one of the most disgusting and distasteful acts in America government. It would not matter to me if it was their guy or my guy, the act was unconscionable. I reject any argument which characterizes it as government saving. The American people need to know there is integrity in government and we do follow the rule of law, for all men equally.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 01/18/19 10:11 PM

Quote:
American people need to know there is integrity in government and we do follow the rule of law, for all men equally.


You'd be hard put to convince most Americans that there is integrity in government and that we follow the rule of law...
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/19/19 05:46 AM



BuzzFeed is taking heat because of Mueller's office's response to BuzzFeed's story. NOTE: It took Mueller's office 20 hrs to respond:

Quote:
President Donald Trump directed his longtime attorney Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about negotiations to build a Trump Tower in Moscow, according to two federal law enforcement officials involved in an investigation of the matter.

Trump also supported a plan, set up by Cohen, to visit Russia during the presidential campaign, in order to personally meet President Vladimir Putin and jump-start the tower negotiations. “Make it happen,” the sources said Trump told Cohen.

Mueller's office has not stated specifically what is wrong in their carefully worded denial of BuzzFeed's article.

BuzzFeed also broke the Steele Dossier story - two years ago. Let's see how well the Steele Dossier has held up now two years after the fact:

Quote:
The dossier holds up well over time, and none of it, to our knowledge, has been disproven.

- LawFareBlog.com 12/14/18


I'm going to stay on Team BuzzFeed. smile
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/19/19 08:42 PM

Buzzfeed probably has some details wrong, but is mostly correct. Notice that Mueller's spokesman did not say the whole thing is wrong. Just like the most sensational (and unimportant) parts of the dossier have not been proved: Their is still independently documented evidence in it that shows a pattern of criminality. If the subject was anybody but the President, he would have been prosecuted under RICO long ago.

And even if Trump did not tell Cohen to lie, Cohen surely made up a false narrative and told it to everyone. Trump most likely used that false narrative in his written answers to Mueller. Then Cohen came clean to the Grand Jury, to get his sentence deal. And we are left with Trump committing perjury in writing, shown by Cohen's testimony and multiple emails and documents in Mueller's possession. I'm sure that Trump is very much a practitioner of "let's get our stories straight before we go to court" from his past court appearances.

Cohen is a rat because he changed his story after getting everyone to use his false narrative.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 01/20/19 08:08 PM

And the story might have been completely fabricated. Trump derangement syndrome is alive and well in the media.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 01/20/19 08:41 PM

The problem, I think, has to do with frustration over the Mueller investigation. Its been a long time and nothing seems to be happening. I think a lot of pressure would be released if they could hand down another bunch of charges. Everytime we hear that Jackass has pissed off yet another ally, insulted another group, kiss the ring of Putin, etc. folks tend to get a bit upset and just want it to stop. Now we are in a shutdown with no end in site.

The obvious solution is for the congress, the WHOLE congress, forgets the politics and starts to pass veto proof legislation and, for the at happen, the Republicans need to step up. If that doesn't happen then this thing can go on forever. Perhaps the senate should be advised that this is the way, in theory, that the founders designed the system. Right now, however, we are told that McConnell is at fault. He is just the face. The simple fact is that the Republican simply cannot bring themselves to do the right thing. This, in spite of the continuous reports that the senate Republicans would be delighted to do as I suggest except for McConnell. That is, I think, simple balony. They can do this thing if they grown a pair and stiffen their backbones.

As I understand it anybody in the senate can actually bring legislation to the floor if they have the votes. In spite of all the balony the fact remains - the members simply do not have the stomach for it. Sorry, as far as I can tell these craven simply don't have the stomach to act like members of the congress instead of the members of the afraid of the Dear Leader club.

None of this is going to end well. ALL members of the senate are very close to ALL being painted with the obstructionist paintbrush. Perhaps they might act when people start dying because of a lack of food inspections, very tired air controllers or pilots, etc. Even then, I suspect, they will continue with the games until folks REALLY get a bit upset. Right now it seems that the populace know what is going on and have come to the conclusion its just the way it is <sigh>
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 01/20/19 10:25 PM

I don't know how many news orgs would double down on a story which is patently false. Their creds would be completely wiped out and of course may go bankrupt.

Buzzfeed did that just today. They stood by their story.

Curious minds want to know the truth .... the facts ...
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 01/20/19 11:44 PM

This is a pretty strange deal. Mueller never said it wasn't true just that some of the facts were wrong. Have no idea what any of it means but, as usual and over time, we will figure it out. In this case, unless Mueller changes his mind, it will be after he has done all he can, I guess.

I also wonder if them that gave the story to Buzzfeed will ever be revealed.........
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 01/21/19 01:10 AM

The way I heard it, a spokesman for the Mueller investigation stated simply that the report was not accurate. Simply that.

Not that it was partially accurate, not that they got it a little bit mixed up, not that it as anything but wrong.

Buzzfeed can stand behind it all they want, that doesn't make it any more or less accurate. Just that they printed what was reported to them in good faith.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/21/19 08:10 PM

In an interview, Ivanka tried to spin it a bit but essentially verified everything in the BuzzFeed article. Just like the Steele dossier, over the long run I think we will see that it's true on all the major points but a few of the details are incorrect. For example, Mueller has documentation that shows Trump and Cohen agreed to a lie together, rather than Trump telling Cohen to lie.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 01/25/19 02:21 PM

Mueller indicts Roger Stone, says he was...' stolen emails (CNN). And so it begins.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 01/25/19 03:47 PM

Roger Stone is to the Trump and Nixon administrations what Zacarias Moussawi was to the 9/11 hijackers.
He is the only member of Nixon's Dirty Tricks Team who never got caught or prosecuted. While other members have either died, or served time and went on to live quiet lives or host little radio shows or write books, Stone has leveraged his balls on ever bigger gambles against democracy, upping the ante like a card counter in Vegas.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 01/25/19 05:35 PM

Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Justice is coming - 01/27/19 01:13 PM


Rumorhazzit that Steve Bannon is "Individual 1" in the Roger Stone indictment.

I don't remember Steve Bannon being in Europe in July/August 2016, but Jerome Corsi was.

My bet is that "Individual 1" in the Stone indictment is Jerome Corsi. smile


The Radio Show host listed but not named is Randy Credico. I wish it were Sean Hannity, I'd love to see that guy take a fall. Hmm
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 01/29/19 04:34 AM

It should be remembered that the last time Roger Stone had the opportunity to protect Donald Trump in a deposition he folded like a cheap tent and implicated Trump. I'm trying to re-find a citation to the deposition. I don't expect him to hold up to pressure any better than Cohen.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/29/19 08:53 AM

I just saw an interesting report on MSNBC about the public wanting House democrats to get and expose Trump's income tax returns. Seems that at one of his two tax fraud trials, he claimed $600,000 in deductions for a business but could not supply the IRS with a single receipt or any documentation. On top of that, his tax accountant told the court that his signature on the return was a forgery! Trump got a chewing-out and had to pay it back plus a fine, but no jail time. I wonder if he also had to pay off the judge to get that sentence.

His casinos also had a money-laundering charge that went to court and was upheld. Again, no jail time because we don't send billionaires to jail.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 01/29/19 05:50 PM

A friend suggested that the ultimate outcome of the Mueller report might be the equivalent of Americans being patted on the head and told, "Don't worry about it, nothing to see here, just forget it. We will not be releasing it to the public at all".

If the report says that nothing was serious enough to warrant impeachment, it's a tough pill to swallow but eventually we would have to, and move on.

If however, "we never get to see it and nothing is done - - to supposedly keep the country from imploding",
I guarantee you it's a sure-fire bet that the country WILL implode, and EXPLODE. If there is anything guaranteed to set off a bloody revolution, it's the notion that justice is not done to proven criminals in power at the very top.
It will be a sign to Americans that the law is meaningless and absolutely worthless.

I dare Barr to try and paper over the report. Watch what happens if he does. It won't be "leftist violence", no sir...it will be people from all sides who expect to see justice carried out and respect given to the law. Any attempt to even try to pull a stunt like that would be tantamount to the law itself aiding and abetting, and then covering up.

I seriously doubt that Americans will tolerate such an openly blatant and brazen disregard for core American values.

Again, I am NOT SAYING that the reaction would be dire if the report exonerates Trump and his crew, it would be upsetting but not fatal to the country. I am suggesting that if the report is deemed to be so bad that it is covered up and stashed away and nothing is ever done, it would set off a fatal reaction from many sides, from Americans from all walks of life.

Your thoughts??
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 01/29/19 06:45 PM

Quote:
I seriously doubt that Americans will tolerate such an openly blatant and brazen disregard for core American values.


And I point to Donald Trump and say yes. Yes they will tolerate just about anything and applaud it if it's their party doing it.

I personally think yall have been hoping for way too much in this investigation and are likely to be disappointed when it finally comes out.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 01/29/19 08:30 PM

I fully expect to be disappointed.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 01/29/19 09:35 PM

apparently there are rules about the tax stuff. They will get, exactly, what they ordered but they will get none of the rest of it which means they are going to be missing the meaty stuff. Hope I am wrong.

Jackass, I think, is famous for running criminal enterprises, not paying the hired help, shorting on his taxes, treating females poorly, hiring illegals, lusting after his own daughter and raising two little boy jackasses. Apparently he is, yet again, going broke too! It kinda makes sense that the American electorate would elect him to be president in their wisdom and experience.

On the good side, of course, is that Mueller has the accountant of Jackass visiting with him.

Just saying..............
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 01/30/19 10:44 AM

He's got the CFO of the Trump Organization telling all to save his own ass. That guy knows where ALL the skeletons are buried, going back many years. If they try to paper over the report, it means doom for Republicans in 2020. Like zero Republicans win elections. Then what do a Democratic President and Congress do? What ever the public demands! RICO prosecution?
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 01/30/19 05:26 PM

Quote:
I fully expect to be disappointed.


There now. That's the right attitude. This is politics and it rarely plays out in a way to make anybody very happy.

Justice IS coming.

In 2020.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/07/19 08:13 PM

Acting Attorney General Matt Whitaker Threatens to Stiff-Arm Congress (Daily Beast).
Quote:
Unless House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler promises—in writing —not to subpoena him today or tomorrow during his testimony, Whitaker will not testify, according to a letter the Justice Department sent to Nadler Thursday afternoon.


Who. The. F#%$. Does. He. Think. He. Is.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 02/07/19 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

Who. The. F#%$. Does. He. Think. He. Is.


Far as I can see, he thinks he runs a company that offers time travel, and another company that makes toilets for men with large appendages.

Time travel and masculine toilets

World Patent Marketing - how to threaten whistleblowers

Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/07/19 09:34 PM

I saw his first press conference. It was nearly a disaster. He looked like a perp.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 02/08/19 03:15 AM

Speaking of justice coming, I see that Bezos has published all of the correspondence from the National Enquirer in their attempt to blackmail him. They wanted the Washing Post to stop publishing damaging stories about them and in exchange they would not publish dick pics stolen off his girl friend's phone.

Now it takes a special kind of stupid to try to blackmail one of the richest men on Earth. And all they have is dick pics! Like everybody on the planet has never seen a dick or even owned one. I foresee another Gawker: But instead of a washed up wrestler, their opponent has all the money in the world. They even got their lawyers involved, so they lose their livelihood as well as spending time in prison. Pecker is going to lose it all. He will end up penniless and NE will no longer exist. Or maybe Bezos will keep it alive and use it to attack Trump on every supermarket checkout line! That would be funny.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 02/08/19 04:19 PM

Just listened to his hearing and he is definitely an obstructionist. I don;t think he will answer any question which remotely touches on Mr Trump which is not in public record, and even then he stalls on his answer.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 02/08/19 07:31 PM

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 02/08/19 11:08 PM

I really really really hate the fact that I appear to be rooting on the side of a guy worth a hundred and forty billion dollars, who "just happens to own a newspaper" but is much more well known for running the world's largest mail order sweatshop.
Since he doesn't really NEED anything from the likes of a guy like me, I'll just say that I hate the David Peckers of the world a lot more, and the Cohens, and the Stones, and the Manaforts, and the Flynns, and the Pruitts, and of course, the Trumps.

Does anyone believe that it really is possible to resurrect a folded up National Enquirer and transform it into a tabloid pulpit to project Trump hatred to every 7-11 in the Western world?

It would be fun to watch!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 02/09/19 12:00 AM

HAHAHAHA they're claiming that publication of personal dick pics from a cellphone owned by Bezos is "fair use". ROTFMOL


Quote:
As a primary matter, please be advised that our newsgathering and reporting on matters involving your client, including any use of your client’s “private photographs,” has been, and will continue to be, consistent with applicable laws. As you know, “the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies . . . for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting . . . is not an infringement of copyright.” 17 USC Sec. 107. With millions of Americans having a vested interest in the success of Amazon, of which your client remains founder, chairman, CEO, and president, an exploration of Mr. Bezos’ judgment as reflected by his texts and photos is indeed newsworthy and in the public interest.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 02/09/19 07:09 AM

People go to jail for publishing revenge porn. What is this but revenge porn? I think AMI is guilty of some pretty significant felonies, and their lawyers are in on it up to their necks. Using a lawyer to commit a crime does NOT make it non-criminal. It just includes the lawyer in the conspiracy.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 02/11/19 02:27 AM

Seems that some legal minds are attempting to argue that Bartnicki v. Vopper applies to David Pecker.

Except that I run up against Bollea v. Gawker and I don't understand how Bartnicki overturns Gawker and in the process makes REVENGE PORN legal again, more legal than it ever has been.

But I am not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV.

Bartnicki versus Gawker, any takers? ThumbsUp
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/11/19 04:59 PM

A couple of caveats: I'm not an expert on First Amendment issues; and I hadn't heard of Bartnicki until now - but I am an attorney, and I have identified a couple of chinks in the proverbial Bartnicki armor. And, I love to take on new legal questions.

First, those asserting the precedence of Bartnicki are not wrong, but a) it is narrower in scope than asserted; b) it may not be applicable to the National Inquirer questions; and c) Bollea may inapposite. For fun, let me get all pedantic up here:

1) participation. Bartnicki involved a chain of acquisition for the tape in question, which attenuated the culpability of the publisher/broadcaster, who had no direct knowledge of how the tape came into being. The Inquirer has a reputation for encouraging the acquisition of questionable material, and may, in some instances, have participated in the illegality. That is likely to have been the case here, given the content and target (it forms a pattern). That is a distinction with great significance.

Second, Bartnicki can be interpreted pretty narrowly, despite its broad implications. It was what is called an "as applied" decision, which alone limits its application to how the material is used. What that generally means is that each instance is reviewed independently, rather than in a broad-brush manner - the same rule applies, but the facts change the outcome significantly. The law wasn't changed, the interpretation of the law is different.

Third, the public interest exception. There is a longstanding "public interest" exemption that applies in First Amendment (and certain other) cases. The more significant the "public interest" the more leeway courts give to First Amendment arguments. The Pentagon Papers are a good example of a strong public interest leak. Whistleblower statutes are the embodiment of the concept. As we know from recent cases, however, punishing the leakers is a growing trend. Government Leaks to the Press Are Crucia...hem So Harshly? (TIME). The Inquirer would have a hard time arguing much public interest in publishing this material to begin with, especially once the story has been told. Does being a billionaire mean a lack of privacy? But, that leads to the last distinction:

How the material was used. In Bartnicki the illegally obtained tape was simply published. The Inquirer (it is alleged) was actually using it for a non-publication purpose (blackmail). That, in itself, is unprotected (as is all revenge porn).

Finally, the Hulk Hogan case was a State court case, and it doesn't appear Bartnicki was addressed there, as it was resolved before appeals were completed. Arguments about whether Bartnicki is applicable could go either way.

As a final point, I think it is an open question whether the explicit material itself would be within the Bartnicki exemption. Perhaps the fact of an affair is of public interest (which I would generally argue against), and perhaps the creation of material (exposure pics, tapes, etc.) has some "news" value, depending on the nature of the victim, but the exposure of that material itself to public view adds very little value to the public, but perhaps makes it a better tool for blackmail.

Overall, I think the Inquirer has exposed themselves to a lot of pain (maybe it likes that), and perhaps Gawker-level punishment. I think the bigger issue, though, is ancillary criminal exposure (e.g., prosecution and/or loss of immunity). Oh! My popcorn is ready!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 02/13/19 09:27 AM

The fact that Jeff Bezos has a penis has zero news value. If he didn't have one, that would be newsworthy. Seeing the image of said penis probably has no news value either, unless there is something unusual about it. Images of penises are widely available in every size, color, and shape.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 02/13/19 02:39 PM

Does embarrassment have a monetary value? Could the perceived value be used to extort someone to do something? Did not Mr Trump pay off at least two women, who had affairs with him, in order to not make the affairs public which would presumably embarrass him or his family?

Clearly having a pic of a dic does have value when placed in proper context.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/13/19 06:22 PM

Trump’s tweet that Senate investigators found “NO EVIDENCE OF COLLUSION,” explained (Vox). "Trump wants you to believe Richard Burr is the final word on Russia. He isn’t."

So, even though the panel found 100 contacts, at least two people charged for lying to the committee, the collusion contract between the Trump campaign and the Putin administration wasn't signed so it doesn't prove collusion.

Folks, that's not how it works.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 02/13/19 07:31 PM

I really don't understand. Pecker wrote a letter to somebody and told them that if they didn't do what he wanted he would punish them. All the stuff I have read, so far, seems to think this is OK and nothing can be done. On the other hand I always thought that blackmail was illegal, ie. you can't demand somebody do something or you will punish them (in this case reveal information about them).

Just find the arguments odd............

I am not an attorney but, over the years I have hired them, and also always had a couple on retainer for this and that.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/14/19 04:16 AM

Two things:

Thing 1: Paul Manafort: Trump ex-aide lied to prosecutors, judge rules (BBC). Manafort is fu-u-%$k-ed.

Thing 2: 18 U.S. Code §&#8239;875. Interstate communications
Quote:
(d) Whoever, with intent to extort from any person, firm, association, or corporation, any money or other thing of value, transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to injure the property or reputation of the addressee or of another or the reputation of a deceased person or any threat to accuse the addressee or any other person of a crime, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
"the term “extortion” means an offense that has as its elements the extraction of anything of value from another person by threatening or placing that person in fear of injury to any person or kidnapping of any person". The important elements are the "threat" and "thing of value". Not pursuing a lawsuit or other action is, by definition, "of value" to AMI. The standard, as we just saw in the Manafort case, for a violating of an agreement not to prosecute is lower than criminal conviction. AMI screwed the pooch.
Posted by: Ken Condon

Re: Justice is coming - 02/14/19 10:52 PM

Here’s a link in The Atlantic by Andrew McCabe from his upcoming book about his thoughts on Trump. It’s really quite disturbing but not surprising:

Quote:
People do not appreciate how far we have fallen from normal standards of presidential accountability. Today we have a president who is willing not only to comment prejudicially on criminal prosecutions but to comment on ones that potentially affect him. He does both of these things almost daily. He is not just sounding a dog whistle. He is lobbying for a result. The president has stepped over bright ethical and moral lines wherever he has encountered them. Every day brings a new low, with the president exposing himself as a deliberate liar who will say whatever he pleases to get whatever he wants. If he were “on the box” at Quantico, he would break the machine.


Link
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 02/15/19 04:23 AM

I wonder who is going to get indicted tomorrow?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/20/19 09:16 PM

Justice may be stymied after all: Justice Department preparing for Mueller report as early as next week (CNN). Bill Barr gets confirmed, and immediately the rugs get lifted and the brooms come out. The shovels are next. Here's my prediction:

Barr has, essentially "terminated" the Mueller probe, denying the pursuit of "obstruction" on the basis of his previous memo (Presidents can't obstruct, they're all powerful). The "report" Barr presents to Congress will detail only what has already been charged, and ignore additional information as "uncharged conduct" that DOJ doesn't "comment" on. Congress will demand the original report which Barr will resist. Whitaker has been kept on at Justice so they can gag him and claim privilege. The stall will be maintained until Trump is out of office, and the records will mysteriously vanish when the Democratic administration takes over. On his way out, Trump will pardon all his "loyal" cronies and family members.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 02/20/19 11:18 PM

And so...like I predicted long ago in this very thread...
Justice is not coming.

The Mueller report needs to contain only two words. No Collusion.

Everyone charged will be pardoned and that will be the end of it.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 02/20/19 11:52 PM

How does AG Barr stop an ongoing investigation into obstruction?

It could be most if not all of the investigative portion of the mandate has been exhausted, and would therefore mean there is no need for a large contingent of investigators. To think otherwise would suggest one has made the fundamental assumption the investigation is not close to being closed.

Certainly AG Barr and his cadre of associated Trump loyalists are in place to obstruct. And almost as certain blanket pardons have already been written.

I don;t see the germs ...
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 02/21/19 12:34 AM

(i) The investigation was for collusion, not obstruction

(ii) A sitting president cannot obstruct justice

(iii) A sitting president cannot be indicted

And so you have it: No collusion, no obstruction, no indictments.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 02/21/19 05:28 AM

Maybe no indictment until he leaves office, but then there is the matter of state crimes. Trump will be tried and found guilty of state tax fraud and money laundering at the least. Even if he is pardoned by himself or some other President, that does not absolve him of state crimes. For that matter, accepting a pardon means you plead guilty to the crime, so the state version of those crimes will be slam-dunk cases.

If we don't prosecute treason, then what are we telling the next guy who thinks about committing treason?

I also think you are ignoring the power of the House committees to subpoena Mueller and learn everything he knows.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 02/21/19 06:09 AM

Grasping at straws are we? But but but....

In January of 2021, Donald Trump is going to board Marine One and fly to the nearest airport where he will be met by his own private jet to be whisked far far away to some secret tropical resort beyond the reach of extradition. Melania and the brat will return to New York.

And they lived happily (and separately) ever after.

There's justice for ya...More realistically though, Trump will join a very select group of men who will always be called Mr. President. They have been to the top of the mountain and they are untouchable.
Absolved of all crimes by their service to their country.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 02/21/19 03:48 PM


Originally Posted By: Greger
(i) The investigation was for collusion, not obstruction


Originally Posted By: Business Insider
Rosenstein also gave Mueller the power to investigate "any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a)" — including perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses.


Originally Posted By: Greger
(ii) A sitting president cannot obstruct justice


Originally Posted By: Neal Katyal
The idea that a president can’t obstruct justice died with King George III, with a brief attempt at revival by Richard Nixon.


Originally Posted By: Greger
(iii) A sitting president cannot be indicted


Originally Posted By: Philip Bobbitt
Professor Tribe argues, very roughly, first that it is imperative that the Constitution be construed to permit indictment


Your cynicism is duly noted as it should be in consideration of current status of significant players in this drama. However, it also has to be noted first, SCO has purview outside the strict limitation of investigating collusion. Second, despite the fact a president has wide ranging powers, he could conceivably break the law by ordering acts which are illegal in other contexts. Third, to argue a sitting president cannot be indicted is tantamount to saying a sitting president is above the law.

My prediction ... SCO will report there was collusion (conspiracy) between Russian agents and the Trump campaign. There will be people named.

SCO will report Mr Trump maintained a pattern of obstructing justice of the underlying crime of collusion (conspiracy) with elements of the Russian government.

SCO will not report an indictment of Mr Trump in deference to current DoJ protocols.

Now the reality check ... Republicans will whitewash the report. DoJ will not prosecute based on report. There will be no impeachment proceedings in Senate. Blanket pardons will be issued. No political repercussions for Mr Trump and his gang of corrupt conspirators.

If this doesn't provide damaging fodder for a presidential campaign, then political operatives are not doing their job. I can not imagine not arguing a president of the United States was arguably acting on the behalf of the Russian government while sitting in the WH. Even Trump supporters can see how that would be deleterious to the security of the United States.

But I dunno. I also believe a huge chunk of Americans are, and I won't mince words, stupid.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 02/21/19 06:04 PM

Quote:
to argue a sitting president cannot be indicted is tantamount to saying a sitting president is above the law.

Then let's just go ahead and say it...A sitting president is above the law. He can be impeached by the House and tried by the Senate. But otherwise he's immune to due process as we generally know it.

Apparently so is his family whose lack of ethics and willingness to profit from their positions is as deplorable as the 30% of Americans who believe they can do no wrong.

We have gone past oligarchy and entered into an era of kleptocracy.

The law of the jungle is the only law that means anything and only the rich will survive.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/24/19 05:32 PM

Here's a pretty good summary of what Mueller has disclosed so far, from a well-known "ultra liberal news outlet": Court records reveal a Mueller report in plain view (Washington Times). If the Washington Times is willing to publish such information, it bodes ill for Trump.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/25/19 05:19 PM

It seems extremely likely that Donald Jr. lied to the committees about the Trump tower meeting. The question, then, is: were the lies "material"?
Quote:
The false statement must be material to the proceedings. A false statement is material if it has "a natural tendency to influence, or is capable of influencing, the decision of the decision-making body to which it was addressed." Kungys v. United States, 485 U.S. 759, 770 (1988)(denaturalization proceeding). The testimony need not have actually influenced, misled or impeded the proceeding.
DoJ guidelines
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/26/19 06:49 PM

Trump Jr. claims his father’s associates aren’t being indicted for ‘actual crimes’ (ThinkProgress). At least, he'd like that to be true...
Quote:
“They’re not investigating actual crimes anymore… There are no actual crimes,” the president’s son said. “There’s only things that people did in past lives, in 2006 before we even thought we’d ever get into this crazy world. And that’s what it is. ”
What is actually crazy about his statements is, he may actually think that way. I think, really, he thinks in terms of the tax fraud statute of limitations. If you haven't got caught, it's not criminal, you see. But.... according to Trump, his tax returns are still under audit, which tolls the statute of limitations. Ooops.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 02/26/19 07:38 PM

I have always wondered why reporters have not asked him and others in the Trump orbit what crimes are real crimes. If lying to the FBI or Congress is not a crime, then why did they lie??? Seems like they don't think much of the criminal code, so I have concluded they believe they have not committed any crimes.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 02/26/19 09:15 PM

I am beginning to wonder. For the last few days folks associated with the FBI have been telling us that the FBI is an organization that investigates. If they find criminal action, and they can prove it, then they charge the violator with the crime. We are now being told, basically, that if there is a crime we will know about it as the charging is public (kinda).

Tomorrow Cohen will publicly talk to congress and, we are told, he is coming with the evidence as well as his mouth. Evidence? I thought Mueller had all of that stuff. On the other hand, how about Mueller is using Cohen to kinda point out some facts we may not be aware of but Mueller thinks we should so he is using Cohen, and the evidence to get that done?

I wonder if there are others that will be coming forward, with the evidence.

I know - pure speculation. On the other hand not quite as crazy as some of the other speculation?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/26/19 10:13 PM

Mueller scores big win as court rejects challenge to his appointment (Politico). "In a unanimous ruling, a three-judge panel of the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals turned aside arguments that Mueller wields so much power as a special prosecutor that he should have been nominated by the president and confirmed by the Senate."

What may be more important, at least to Roger Stone, is that the court further determined that Andrew Miller is in contempt of court for not appearing before the grand jury. In Re Grand Jury Investigetion
Quote:
Because the Special Counsel is an inferior officer, and the
Deputy Attorney General became the head of the Department
by virtue of becoming the Acting Attorney General as a result
of a vacancy created by the disability of the Attorney General
through recusal on the matter, we hold that Miller’s challenge
to the appointment of the Special Counsel fails. Accordingly,
we affirm the order finding Miller in civil contempt.


(Interestingly, there is an implication in the ruling that Whitaker may not have been properly appointed acting AG.)
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 02/27/19 02:45 AM

Mueller obtaining some piece of evidence does not necessarily mean the supplier of that evidence no longer has it. They copy hard drives and documents, not confiscate them. It's not like any of the evidence is a gun or some other physical object.

In this instance, Cohen would need a copy of his books so his accountant can figure out how to handle all the illegal transaction in a way the satisfies the IRS.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 02/27/19 06:13 AM

Former Attorney General Eric Holder on Twitter:

"A sitting President can be indicted."

Quote:
"Constitution does not anticipate allowing a president who used fraud to obtain the office to remain in power. Executive branch paralysis during the criminal process is not a compelling argument- consider 25th Amendment. A sitting president can be indicted."


MSNBC's Rachel Maddow says that we all need to call in sick tomorrow morning, stay in our jammys, make popcorn and watch the Michael Cohen sh!t show.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/27/19 08:01 AM

Not crazy at all.

I laughed when I read this, from Sarah Sanders: "It’s laughable that anyone would take a convicted liar like Cohen at his word, and pathetic to see him given yet another opportunity to spread his lies.” Is the difference that you haven't been convicted... yet? It certainly isn't that you've not engaged in actively lying...
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/27/19 08:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Former Attorney General Eric Holder on Twitter:

"A sitting President can be indicted."

Quote:
"Constitution does not anticipate allowing a president who used fraud to obtain the office to remain in power. Executive branch paralysis during the criminal process is not a compelling argument- consider 25th Amendment. A sitting president can be indicted."
I love that the former Attorney General of the United States tweeted out what I posted 12 hours earlier.
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: Justice is coming - 02/27/19 03:34 PM

A message from Michael Dean Cohen Esq. to Donald Trump

hitsfan
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 02/27/19 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Not crazy at all.

I laughed when I read this, from Sarah Sanders: "It’s laughable that anyone would take a convicted liar like Cohen at his word, and pathetic to see him given yet another opportunity to spread his lies.” Is the difference that you haven't been convicted... yet? It certainly isn't that you've not engaged in actively lying...



In other words, Sarah Sanders prefers liars who haven't been convicted yet.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/28/19 06:01 AM

I watched much of Michael Cohen's testimony today, when I could. Much of what I did see was unilluminating, although not unimportant. The best questioner - by far - I saw was Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I'll try to link it. She was sharp, succinct and focused, and, most important, elicited important information. She put most of the lawyers on the panel to shame, and not by a little. link. it's short. You should watch it.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Justice is coming - 02/28/19 01:02 PM

I came away with the same thoughts. She is no flash-in-the-pan accident - we might have a new super leader to guide the transition.

The opposition is disintegrating, I am predicting that by the time a vote comes around to override Trump's veto of the Fake Wall Emergency that the votes will be there. The RFS Trump has hit the iceberg.

Did you get a load of Gosar's inept and embarrassing tirade against The Fixer? And his "Liar, Liar, pants on Fire" sign? That's AOC's opposition...

Meanwhile, King Kon is 0 for 2 with the dark-comic NoKo super villain.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 02/28/19 02:57 PM

I saw AOC and agree. 5 minutes ... succinct ... no irrelevant harangue

The impression I got about Republican attorneys was in their previous experience as attorneys, they must have been limited to jaywalking cases.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 02/28/19 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
I saw AOC and agree. 5 minutes ... succinct ... no irrelevant harangue

The impression I got about Republican attorneys was in their previous experience as attorneys, they must have been limited to jaywalking cases.


Exactly the impression I got!
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 02/28/19 04:39 PM

Now, this is the way it's done, folks! Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu indicted on bribe and fraud charges (NBC).
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 02/28/19 11:12 PM

I watched Michael Cohen's testimony (well, a lot of it). Anyway, Mr. Cohen was selling access to Jackass. I think I remember one report that he got 200,000.00 from a Saudi amongst others. I did not, however, hear anybody ask the question, ie. "Did you give any part of the money you received for access, to Mr. Trump". If he did, and it could be proved, Jackass is GONE!

I have probably mentioned this before but those in charge of criminal enterprises ALWAYS get a little "taste". I don't think Jackass is any different.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-co...prosecutors-say
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 03/01/19 01:34 AM

So, it just might be possible that someone is going to ask him this question. If it's in closed session, it might mean that proof of this already exists and is so damning as to be downright frightening to a great many in the Senate.
It is entirely possible that a great many in the Senate have been playing Cohen's game right alongside him.
I don't have the least bit of trouble imagining Mitch McConnell selling access to Trump.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 03/01/19 06:10 PM

Limbaugh loved to rail about Clinton's selling access but apparently hypocrisy rules, as it is ok for Republicans or more pointedly, Trump supporters, to do the same.

Who would have thunk it???
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 03/01/19 10:03 PM

Quote:
I have probably mentioned this before but those in charge of criminal enterprises ALWAYS get a little "taste". I don't think Jackass is any different.

A suitcase full of cash changes hands in the Bahamas. A cigarette boat delivers it to a yacht docked in Palm Beach....it funnels into Trump Org. All contracts are verbal. Non disclosure agreements may extend to the health of your loved ones.

Al Capone was small time compared to the Trump Syndicate.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Justice is coming - 03/02/19 09:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I have probably mentioned this before but those in charge of criminal enterprises ALWAYS get a little "taste". I don't think Jackass is any different.

A suitcase full of cash changes hands in the Bahamas. A cigarette boat delivers it to a yacht docked in Palm Beach....it funnels into Trump Org. All contracts are verbal. Non disclosure agreements may extend to the health of your loved ones.

Al Capone was small time compared to the Trump Syndicate.


I'd bet anything that's exactly how it happens.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 03/02/19 11:26 PM

I was trying to say that if Cohen was kicking back then he just might have documentation. If he did kickback then that would be a conspiracy to take bribes (or somesuch). In any case taking money, even second-hand for access is not, I suspect, lawful?

Oh, can't resist. It also seems that there are a couple of courts, now, that have sealed indictments from Mueller. That, I suspect, will provide a lot of entertainment!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 03/06/19 09:11 PM

Here's a nice summary of what the House Democrats are looking at, with their extensive document requests:

What The Democrats’ Trump Investigators Are Looking For

The list is long, but I notice it does not cover Trump's money laundering deals with individual sales to Russian nationals.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 03/06/19 09:54 PM

The more I think about it the more I am becoming convinced that Cohen is actually aiming the house at what they need to be looking at. I suspect that Mueller has him out there 'helping' them to go in the right directions. All this talk about. This would be one way to work around all the talk about reports, who sees them, if anybody, etc.

When he is asked a question, for instance, he just doesn't answer it but gives sources and suggestions. I have no idea what he is saying in the closed meeting but I assume more of the same.

Jackass might be able to shutdown investigations by the DOJ, FBI, etc. but he cannot shut down the House and the house IS motivated!

Then there are all the sealed indictments being held by at least two courts.

I suspect things are going to get real interesting real quick?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 03/07/19 07:01 AM

No question about it. And just wait until they call on Trump's CFO! hitsfan
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 03/07/19 09:31 PM

Nice little article on Slate about the slam-dunk case against Trump et al for money laundering:

How to Nail Trump for Money Laundering

Surprise! It's not for real estate and Russians. It's about the way he and the Trump organization reimbursed Cohen for bimbo payments, who has even supplied images of the checks he received to prosecutors.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 03/08/19 01:40 PM

LOL, I was getting ready to post that link. Nice catch, my friend.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 03/11/19 03:15 PM

Oops! It Exists: DOJ Finds Letter Ordering Scrutiny of Uranium One, Hillary Clinton (Daily Beast). The letter itself is unremarkable, but its existence raises two questions: who lied about its existence? And Why?
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 03/11/19 11:06 PM

Quote:
Republicans have long alleged that then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton declined to oppose the deal because of contributions to the Clinton Foundation.


I am not so much concerned about perjury, as that would have come to light eventually, as I am about this nonsensical statement of idiot-ological article of faith.

First she was not directly involved and evidence at the time suggested she was unaware of the negotiations (if I recollect correctly ... yes I know, she did not have to publicly be seen involved and could have secretly in her best conspiratorial way made it known to each agency to sign off because her Foundation made off with large donations).

Second and more importantly, if they believe that contention, then they have to believe that every agency involved in signing off also was either involved in the same conspiracy or the whole energy segment of the Obama administration was involved in similar conspiracies with the Russians.

I am sorry but I have to call out Rep Jordan. He suffers from a major case of paranoia and needs help immediately.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 03/12/19 07:16 PM

I keep wondering if Cohen kicked back any money he collected for selling access to Jackass. Now we are told that a woman who used to run a string of massage parlors is now selling access to Jackass as well (for big bucks). Since folks, especially the foreign kind will pay big bucks for access one can only wonder if she is kicking back to Jackass as well. Oh, the woman used to own the massage parlor that the nfl team member was caught having sex in that same parlor. Apparently they are saying that "the parlor is the same as when she had it down to the girls and the fake plants.

One can only wonder?
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Justice is coming - 03/12/19 08:11 PM

I think it's a good bet that if someone is getting paid to provide access to the Boss, then the Boss is getting a pretty good cut of the take...
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 03/13/19 03:04 AM

Somewhere in the Bahamas an envelope changes hands. It goes into a bag with other envelopes. A cigarette boat takes it to a yacht anchored in Palm Beach...
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 03/13/19 07:40 PM

The fact that Cohen and the massage parlor queen are getting paid for access.
https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2017/9/6/16262598/how-to-fix-pay-to-play
https://www.pressherald.com/2018/05/09/t...o-pay-millions/
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/25/632218411...o-playboy-model
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-cohen-trump-swamp-20180510-story.html
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/201...him-cindy-yang/
https://whyy.org/segments/did-a-massage-parlor-owner-sell-access-to-trump/
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/201...ups-cindy-yang/
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 03/20/19 05:50 AM

Interesting thought: Anyone who has a potential suit against Trump should go for it. As long as they can force Trump to testify under oath, they will win a large settlement before the trial. The amount could be astronomical, because Trump's lawyers know testimony under oath would result in perjury charges. So they will settle for any amount necessary to avoid that.

He can't testify, because he can't help but perjure himself. He really can't tell fact from fiction, as evidenced by his thousands of lies. He hardly bothers to make public statements or tweets unless it is to lie! That should be the reason for an Amendment 25 action, if the people around him had any integrity. But of course there was a reason he hand-picked such ethically-challenged slugs for cabinet and VP posts.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Justice is coming - 03/20/19 03:16 PM

There were 18 1/2 minutes of tape missing from Nixon's recordings that brought down his presidency. There are 18 1/2 pages of redactions in the Cohen Search warrants ...
Coincidence? I think not!
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 03/20/19 07:18 PM

The numerologist among us
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Justice is coming - 03/20/19 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
There were 18 1/2 minutes of tape missing from Nixon's recordings that brought down his presidency. There are 18 1/2 pages of redactions in the Cohen Search warrants ...
Coincidence? I think not!

Next I suppose you will be claiming that the pages were notes taken at a meeting... which would make them actual minutes!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 03/20/19 10:11 PM

dooooo-weeee!
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 03/21/19 05:07 AM

18.5 + 18.5 = 37

Angel number 37

It's a message to someone, or many someone's that their path is righteous and the Universe is aligned with them.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 04/16/19 04:49 AM

Trump's sister, the federal judge, just resigned to halt the investigation into her participation in the giant tax fraud scheme to transfer father Fred's money to his kids. I think all the ins and outs, shell corporations, etc. of that scheme are well known. They avoided millions of dollars worth of inheritance tax. There is no statute of limitations on intentional tax fraud.

The apples don't fall far from the tree. I think the only innocent Trump is Barron.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Justice is coming - 04/16/19 06:51 AM

Here it comes:

House Committees Subpoena Deutsche Bank Records On Trump Loans

This will probably give them a better picture of Trump's finances than his income tax filings. Also, here's a chance to see if what Cohen told them about money laundering, tax fraud, and bank fraud are true. I know Deutsche Bank has been in the news for paying some huge money laundering fines.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 04/16/19 05:52 PM

As far as I can tell we have been told that there are 20 different doj investigations going on throughout the entire country which have been spun off the Mueller report. There are some that have even said there are more than 20. My own take is that Mueller figured out what has been happening and made sure that eventually all would be known. This is in addition to the 20 the house is doing. I continue to believe Jackass will go down and the tip off will be when one or more of the children get indicted.

The New York state folks have already offered up the Tax Returns, which they have as part of the New York State tax data. On top of that there are the folks who prepared the Trump taxes who now have a decision. Do they want to be sued by the Congress of the United States or the Trump attorneys.

Things are, I suspect, moving right along and we will have it all - it just takes time, not unlike most of that which gov does. My only real concern is if the congress gets it all and then a not particularly bright member makes it all public, wrecks ongoing investigations, exposes methods and names, and exposes agents in the field, amongst other stuff.

We will, of course, know all in the fullness of time............
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 04/17/19 01:26 AM

Quote:
My own take is that Mueller figured out what has been happening and made sure that eventually all would be known.
Yes! A cryptic message from beyond...
Secretly coded between the lines so that redaction would be useless...

Bull puckey. The Mueller investigation produced nothing. Mueller could have chosen to indict but did not. All the rest is just farts in a whirlwind. The stink will be gone before you know it and the whole thing forgotten in the run up to the 2020 election.

Fascism is coming if Trump is re-elected. Global warming is coming. A massive recession is coming. Summer is coming along with more hurricanes and wildfires and floods...

But Justice? No. Justice is not coming. Not now nor in the fullness of time.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Justice is coming - 04/17/19 02:15 PM

Is it justice you want or revenge?
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 04/17/19 06:40 PM

Here is Mueller's mandate:
(©ffice of tqe g}cput- J\tiortte}:J ®eneral .l!lu.sl1ington, /.<!!. 20530ORDER NO. 3915-2017APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND RELATED MATTERS By virtue of the authority vested in me as Acting Attorney General, including 28 U.S.C. §§ 509, 510, and 515, in order to discharge my responsibility to provide supervision and management of the Department of Justice, and to ensure a full and thorough investigation of the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election, I hereby order as follows: (a) Robert S. Mueller III is appointed t() serve as Specia] Counsel for the United States Department of Justice. (b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confined by then-FBI Director James 8. Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including: (i) any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and (ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and (iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).

This, I think, means that Mueller was given a mandate to investigate Russian efforts to interfere in the election and if any Trump campaign folks had links, or coordination, to such interference.

Any crimes discovered, along the way would also be noted.

THAT'S IT!

My suspicion is that most of the report will be centered on Russians and Trump campaign folks, Mueller may have also investigated any obstruction.

What Mueller seems to have done is to find a LOT of crime that was not directly linked to Russia, etc. It would also seem that most of the crime stuff was handed off to other offices of the DOJ. We have also been told that there are at least 20 separate investigations going on from California to New York! In addition to that I believe Cohen seems to have been sent, by Mueller, to congress to point the way. We are also told that the House has 20 committees working on a variety of investigations into Trump, et.al.

There is an ongoing conviction that the Mueller report will be this or that and nobody is going to be happy with it. This may or may not be true. The simple fact that there are, apparently over 40 investigations, by government, into everything Trump, Russian, Campaign, etc.

Therefore, whilst all hopes for the Mueller report to have all the answers is just plain crazy! If that was the case then gov is doing 40 investigations for absolutely no reason! I do not believe that. I believe that Trump is a gangster and will, eventually be found out. When that happens the Republicans are going to be in a VERY tight spot (to the point, I suspect, that they will actually be willing to work with the Dems). I think Fox news, for instance, understands this and are actually, inviting Dems to appear and preach to other than the choir, for instance.

So, I am hopeful that justice IS coming but slowly. We must all remember that Gov is not exactly noted for moving quickly on just about anything. This being the case patience will be its own reward. Why anybody would think that Gov is going to move swiftly to punish evil, reward good, and solve the current mess, is going to be seriously disappointed. Unless gov is actually taken over, lock, stock and barrel by the bad, I suspect we will survive and things will, in the end work out.

Remember - there is a LOT of people investigating this stuff. As far as I am concerned we are just going to have to wait until all the facts are in and we aren't there yet. We will probably know more but no anywhere near what all these investigations are doing or what they are learning. We will, eventually................

Hopefully!

One last. Trump has yet to make a single 'deal'. He is claiming the overhaul of NAFTA but that was an Obama deal he claimed. The greatest deal maker of the entire world and not a SINGLE deal!!!
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 04/17/19 07:59 PM

Quote:
Is it justice you want or revenge?


I want this Trump thing over with. I don't bear him any ill will. I don't even want to see him prosecuted for random financial shenanigans like laundering money for Russian oligarchs. I just want him out of office.

If Donald Trump were guilty of crimes worthy of impeachment Mueller would have found them. He did not.

I didn't have high hopes for this investigation from the start.

Perhaps justice has arrived but we just don't agree with it...
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 04/17/19 08:25 PM

Quote:
justice IS coming but slowly


I'ma sit right here with you and watch.

I look forward to the day when you can say "Look! You were wrong! Justice is served!" But I aint holdin' my breath.

2020 is our next best chance.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Justice is coming - 04/17/19 09:06 PM

2020 scares the hell out of me. Trump is, if nothing else, cagey. The real hope for beating him is to have the economy go bad. Historically this is how Dems win against the Republicans (for over 100 years!). If nothing else the trillion dollars a year added to the national debt is going to seriously impact the economy. Its also interesting that this is what their "tax cut" is, basically, adding to the national debt so the very rich can be richer. Their gamble that it would all be paid for, by the economy, was just baloney, pure and simple. By 2020 our national debt could actually be greater than our GDP. When that happens nobody is really quite sure what will happen but everybody is convinced its not gonna be good. For instance, when that happens the interest on our debt alone will suck up any money available for ANYTHING!

I find it all very strange. Obamacare, for instance, was starting to reduce the costs of healthcare - the Republicans made sure that wasn't going to happen. Obama did increase the debt bigtime - he had to save the American Banking system after it went hogwild under bush (who increased the deficit over 100% beating Obama's 76% increase due, basically, to the Iraq war which was started with yet another Republican lie). Trump, however, is increasing the debt by about a trillion dollars a year simply because he wanted to make the rich, richer. They say the debt is already slowing the economy and we have another year towards disaster before 2020. You will hear the Republicans start talking about getting rid of the 'entitlements', ie. medicare, medicaid, social security, etc (all services but military, basically). They will tell us that is the only way to bail out their mess (they will, of course, blame it all on Obama) is by getting rid of medicare, medicaid, social security, public schools, etc. So, if the Dems take over they will be inheriting yet another Republican economic mess. This time, however, they should say, everytime they are interviewed, that the mess is a Republican mess and they will fix it as they have fixed all the others brought on by Republicans who don't give a damn about anything but getting richer on the backs of others. The Republicans have been doing this for years, the only difference will be the Democrats will be speaking the truth whilst most of the Republican claims are lies.

Obama, for instance, never tooted his own horn and rarely ever mentioned who caused the worst economic disaster since the great depression. This apparent need to not speak ill of the opposition should just stop! Lay the blame where it belongs and never stop!

So, when the Dems start to run, they should point to the debt, what it means, who did it, who didn't give a damn, and why they can never be trusted again - over, and over, and over again. If they win big enough perhaps they can actually pass meaningful legislation. The trick, of course, is to actually sit down and work it out between and betwixt each other without constant carping and yelling at each other. Find common ground and get it done!

Just saying.............
Posted by: Greger

Re: Justice is coming - 04/17/19 11:51 PM

Quote:
2020 scares the hell out of me.


I'm still optimistic about 2020 despite the Mueller Marshmallow.