The Mueller Report

Posted by: Greger

The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 12:47 AM

Well, the long wait is over. Almost. In a perfect world he would be perp walked out of the White House with cameras flashing as he is loaded into a black SUV and whisked away at dawn. But this is a world where Donald John Trump was elected president. Things don't follow a logical sequence as we would expect them to. Maybe it's a result of climate change.

Before the report drops I'm gonna bet on "No Collusion". Because to even hope otherwise would set me up for another disappointment and, frankly, I've had enough of those.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 01:41 AM

so why would everyone who had contact with Russians lied about having contact?

why would Mr Trump actively try to obstruct the investigation of a non-crime?

nothing about this makes sense.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 04:06 AM

Nothing has really made sense since Trump was elected.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 04:55 AM

I haven't decided of I'm excited or disappointed. I'm ready for the next stage of investigations, but I think it's going to be a long hard slog, with fights over subpoenas, stonewalling, outrageous lies, so, pretty much what we've suffered through for the last two years...
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 05:10 AM

I doesn't "make sense" because we have not seen the report yet. Don't make the mistake of assuming the report is empty, just because you have not seen it. We have no idea: It could contain a list of names and details of every crime documented. Indictments so far were just Mueller's team using standard prosecutor MO for getting information. We know there are a lot more criminals and crimes, so for now I would assume that all that info is in the report.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I haven't decided of I'm excited or disappointed. I'm ready for the next stage of investigations, but I think it's going to be a long hard slog, with fights over subpoenas, stonewalling, outrageous lies, so, pretty much what we've suffered through for the last two years...

1. NW_P, what can we expect from Mueller's report?

2. "No new indictments" means exactly that. What about the already present ones that have never been unsealed, what happens to those?

3. How much of the dirty stuff do you think will could shift-over to State courts where no Federal pardon can be given?

My gut feeling is that the Mueller Report will be a roadmap for future Prosecutors as Mueller has already done the groundwork.

smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 02:46 PM

"No new indictments" says it all. A Republican investigation has found Republicans not guilty. The indictments we've seen have largely just been efforts to flip Trump associates. They flipped, the information they provided wasn't enough.

No Collusion, just like the President said.

Just a prediction, based on years of observation and cynicism regarding all things Republican.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
1. NW_P, what can we expect from Mueller's report?
Depends on how much gets released. I think it is important to go back to the letter that made the appointment, and remember two things: First, it was initially a counterintelligence investigation, and prosecutions were only an ancillary activity.

I suspect that there will be three parts to the report: a) a summary of findings regarding interference; b) indictment and declination decision summaries (which we may never see); and c) ancillary discoveries and evidence. This may be the most important part of the document, and again, may never see the light of day.

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
2. "No new indictments" means exactly that. What about the already present ones that have never been unsealed, what happens to those?
Indictments are indictments. There are many reasons they may remain sealed (e.g., Defendant is not amenable to arrest - abroad, or in the presidency). Also, remember that means no more Meuller indictments. His primary remit was to investigate interference. Many things were sent to other Justice offices and may be continued investigations and indictments. Some of the SC prosecutors are taking their cases with them to their new assignments.

Quote:
3. How much of the dirty stuff do you think will could shift-over to State courts where no Federal pardon can be given? My gut feeling is that the Mueller Report will be a roadmap for future Prosecutors as Mueller has already done the groundwork.

smile
I think a lot has already been shifted. It will be a roadmap only to the extent that it is made available.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 05:43 PM

It's a counterintelligence investigation and it always was.

The word "collusion" has never appeared in any part of the investigation at the outset.
It was never an investigation into "collusion" because collusion is not a legal definition of a crime.
Obstruction and espionage, on the other hand, are.

The word "collusion" is a right wing straw man. Always has been.
The word collusion appears nowhere in the order authorizing Mueller’s investigation.
There isn't even a crime called “collusion.”
Mueller was ordered to investigate “any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with” the Trump campaign.

The purpose of the Mueller Investigation is to identify threats to our national security, potentially including the President of the United States and his associates.

I'll wait patiently for the President to tweet: "No obstruction!"

popcorn2
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 06:02 PM

What is happening is, exactly, the way it should be. Mueller has, basically, turned it all over to congress which, according to the constitution, is the body in charge of removing a president. This is done by doing an impeachment and then turning that over to the senate to convict. Impeachment is the case for conviction and the senate is for the judgment. In Clinton's case, for instance, he was impeached but the senate could not convict so he continued to serve. The current Democratic house currently has EVERY committee investigating. I believe that Mueller sent Cohen out to point the way and, now, they will also have the Mueller investigation for what he has discovered in the last 1.5 years. The trick, I suspect, is to control the enthusiasm for impeachment until they have all the facts and enough of those that even the sitting Republicans can no longer support Jackass and get re-elected.

We will, of course and in the fullness of time, see how it all resolves itself. The hard part will be reading and watching rampant speculation, bogus claims, lunatic claims, Democratic over enthusiasm, and a lot of bad behavior on both sides. If we all thought that the runup to the Mueller Investigation of tough just wait!

My own thought is that this stuff is going to be stretched out to 2020. Just about 4 months before the election the Dems will start to impeach (timing is EVERYTHING!) By that time I would expect the Dems to have enough so that Jackass will be lucky to not go from the presidency to prison (I know, extreme) I also suspect the children of the Jackass will get theirs as well.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 06:05 PM



Thanks for your reply NW_P. smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 07:00 PM

It's kinda nice to have a lawyer/JAG to bounce questions off of....
Especially one so clever and good looking!
(at least I assume you were a JAG in the military, NWP)
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/23/19 10:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
It's kinda nice to have a lawyer/JAG to bounce questions off of....
Especially one so clever and good looking!
(at least I assume you were a JAG in the military, NWP)
I was, and I'm blushing.

Now that Mueller is no longer needed as Special Counsel, the House can hire him to initiate the Impeachment proceedings...
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 12:33 AM

I had a thought today. Mueller is really smart and dedicated. What if he has sealed indictments that he's keeping secret until Trump is out of office? The Statute of limitations for most federal crimes is 5 years. Trump's term is 4. Once he's out of office (unless reelected), he can't pardon anyone who hasn't been charged...
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 03:05 AM



Fatass Trump has been unusually quiet this so far this weekend. Like, weirdly quiet. No Tweets - nothing. He's not even going off on Jeanine Pirro being suspended for a second Saturday night in a row like he did last Saturday.

Something is up. Hmm

Just finished watching Frontline: Mueller Investigation, Parts 1&2. Both aired for the first time last night.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 03:08 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I had a thought today. Mueller is really smart and dedicated. What if he has sealed indictments that he's keeping secret until Trump is out of office? The Statute of limitations for most federal crimes is 5 years. Trump's term is 4. Once he's out of office (unless reelected), he can't pardon anyone who hasn't been charged...

If it's what you say it is...I love itTM. smile
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 04:06 AM

I think that would imply Mueller has a vendetta against Mr Trump. I do not think that is who Mueller is.

My prediction: Mr Trump was an unwitting dupe of Russia meddling. The Russians knew he could be easily manipulated (they knew he was a narcissist). No crime if one is oblivious to reality. Just a lot of questions why he would continue to make policies which benefit the Russians, the N. Koreans, the Israelis i.e. is narcissism on display? then Mr Trump is a danger to America.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 05:43 AM

There is an awful lot of pro quo, for there not to be some quid. Trump is not going out of his way to do everything he can for Putin without something to start that process. You really think he just woke up one day and said to himself, "I think I'll volunteer to be Putin's butt-boy just out of the goodness of my heart"?

Started right from the campaign when the RNC took their Russia sanction language out of their platform at the Trump teams urging. All these pro-Russia acts can't just be because he was duped.

Of course, the same thing is going on in England: Putin wants to diminish the wealth and power of the EU, so his trolls use social media to stir up anti-immigrant hatred enough to get the Brexit vote. You actually talk to pro-Brexit voters and they mainly complain about Indian and Pakistani immigrants who came it years ago under Commonwealth rules. Not Polish construction workers they hired to build an addition.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 02:47 PM

Quote:
My prediction: Mr Trump was an unwitting dupe of Russia meddling.

Bingo! Collusion requires that both parties are aware that they are colluding.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think that would imply Mueller has a vendetta against Mr Trump. I do not think that is who Mueller is.

My prediction: Mr Trump was an unwitting dupe of Russia meddling. The Russians knew he could be easily manipulated (they knew he was a narcissist). No crime if one is oblivious to reality. Just a lot of questions why he would continue to make policies which benefit the Russians, the N. Koreans, the Israelis i.e. is narcissism on display? then Mr Trump is a danger to America.

See PBS' Frontline from March 22, 2019. smile

No way was Trump an unwitting fool. Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 03:36 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Started right from the campaign when the RNC took their Russia sanction language out of their platform at the Trump teams urging...

Started in the mid-80s, actually. Trump has ALWAYS wanted a Tower in Moscow. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 03:45 PM


Keep in mind these events:

Donald Trump fired [then-FBI Director] James Comey. The very next day, laughed about the firing with two Russian diplomats in the Oval Office and later Trump said to Lester Holt on NBC that Comey was fired because of the Russian Investigation contrary to what the WH was saying at the time - it was because of the way that Comey handled the Clinton investigation.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 04:51 PM

Near as I can tell, Trump has had business dealings in Russia and with Russians for a long time. His natural instinct would be to protect those interests and to generally keep them under wraps. This is where I see the path to "no collusion".
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 06:55 PM

Remember, there were a number of sealed indictments, in at least 2 courts. Now there are claims that there are no sealed indictments but no proof that is true (more speculation). We will, of course, learn the truth in the fullness of time <G>
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 08:00 PM


No collusion, but not guilt-free for Obstruction of Justice. I'll take it. smile
Posted by: matthew

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 08:18 PM

'
The Russians wanted Trump to be elected pres., there is no question in my mind as to that! The Russian slanting of news in 2016 was clear and obvious.

Why? Nothing strange about that; with Trump in the White House a spanner was thrown into every aspect of American life for at least 4 years!

No further deviousness need be suspected.
.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: matthew
'
The Russians wanted Trump to be elected pres., there is no question in my mind as to that! The Russian slanting of news in 2016 was clear and obvious.

Why? Nothing strange about that; with Trump in the White House a spanner was thrown into every aspect of American life for at least 4 years!

No further deviousness need be suspected.
.

It says right in the email to Don Jr that the Russian government wishes to help Trump beat Hillary in the Trump Tower Meeting and is offering "dirt."

Isn't that conspiracy to manipulate an election? Hmm
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 08:35 PM

Word is out...No Collusion. Not enough evidence for an obstruction charge.

There ya go folks. The door just swung wide open for Trump's re-election.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Word is out...No Collusion. Not enough evidence for an obstruction charge.

There ya go folks. The door just swung wide open for Trump's re-election.

Welp, Trump's taxes and tariffs are tanking the economy. That will help. smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/24/19 08:55 PM

It's kind of gruesome to be hoping for a recession, but the sooner it happens the better. It took George Bush's fumbling administration a full eight years to bring down a bustling economy.
But he was busy starting wars with countries who never threatened us.

It might be a stretch to hope for Trump doing it in a single term.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/25/19 06:16 AM

I'm too tired to do the full legal review, tonight, but I have a number of thoughts having read Barr's "summary". The short answer is that Barr is whitewashing, and trying to fix the playing field before Mueller's actual report hits the street. The wording is too cute, which makes me suspicious. He "quoted" only parts of sentences, and I believe it is going to turn out to have overstated Mueller's conclusions.

For example, he said the report states: "[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities." Not that he didn't find evidence of it, just that it didn't "establish" it. I suspect he's playing with burdens of proof, here. Not beyond a reasonable doubt, maybe, but to a preponderance of evidence?

More bothersome, to me, is the AG's treatment of the obstruction findings. He declines to prosecute, but because he bootstraps from a collision that the underlying crime wasn't prosecuted. That is NOT the standard for obstruction. This conclusion is mighty suspect, in my view.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/25/19 03:15 PM

Now that I have had the chance to review this more thoroughly, it is much more disturbing. I promised a brief legal analysis earlier, and I am going to attempt one now, with two caveats: First, this is a "summary" of the Mueller report, written by a partisan (so there is more to come); second, I can only address what is in the summary, which has been made public (I'll be interested in comparing these thoughts with what eventually comes out). BLUF: Barr did what he was appointed to do, and that was to cover for the President. This is a very political, not legal, document. Let's get to the details:

1) Barr did not quote a single full sentence from the Mueller report, so, we really don't know what the edited determinations really were. This is cherry-picking at its highest level.

2) the wording of the quotes that were provided are curious, and significant. The quotes:

a) “[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.” First, notice that this is an excerpt of a quote, not the actual sentence from the report. What is missing is as important as what is there. Second, "did not establish" is legal jargon for "probably could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt." In other words, there was probably substantial evidence and the first missing part of the sentence likely laid out the evidence that supported collusion. Barr has elided this for a reason. In the fullness of time we'll discover that reason.

b) “Coordination” [is defined as an] “agreement — tacit or express — between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference.” This is the definition Mueller (apparently) used. What it says is that there was no direct evidence that coordination took place, but there were "coincidences" that suggested it. Again, what is missing here may be more important than what is included in the "summary".

c) Mueller “determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment” about whether the president obstructed justice over the course of the two-year investigation of Russian interference in the election. Instead, Mueller laid out the relevant evidence “on both sides” of the issue, but did not resolve what the special counsel saw as the “difficult issues” of fact and law concerning “whether the President’s actions and intent could be viewed as obstruction.” Mueller’s report “does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it does not exonerate him.” This is a doozy of cherry-picking and covers up more than it exposes. What Mueller apparently concluded was that “while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him”. What were the "difficult issues"? Which "actions and intent"? And, that brings us to the primary purpose of Barr writing this letter, and being appointed in the first place:

AG Barr “concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel’s investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense.” This was not Mueller's conclusion, nor really anyone else's. It is consistent with the memo he produced that got him the job as AG. As one observer pointed out: "Crucially, we don’t know whether Barr concluded that the president didn’t obstruct justice or that he couldn’t obstruct justice." The latter was the premise of his unsolicited memo. It is this conclusion that is most suspect in the summary and will still be litigated in the future. Barr is not in the mainstream on this one.

3) Was Mueller really done? I admit I have been suspicious for some time that the Mueller probe was concluding not because he was finished, but because the new AG was demanding it. The circumstances of the release, the summary, and the language bolsters that suspicion. Mueller is a famously thorough investigator and prosecutor. Some of the language of the summary also suggest that - they are acutely defensive and excessively laudatory of the thoroughness of investigation - and the fact that Mueller didn't reach a "conclusion" on the fundamental question of obstruction.

4) Is this a legal document? No, not really. The Special Counsel is required to provide a confidential memo to the AG. The AG is now "summarizing" that memo for Congress - but it is abundantly clear that this summary is excessively slanted toward a predetermined conclusion (hence the quick turn-around). This is a cover-up memo intended to "set the stage" for future disagreements, and slant coverage for now. I am even more suspicious of Barr's motives than I was before, and it was obvious to any observer that this is exactly what he was hired to do. When the Mueller Report actually sees the light of day, I will bet significant money that it looks radically different from this "summary".


[Since I went to bed last night, lawyers have jumped in all over the internet with similar analyses, e.g.,
Barr’s Startling and Unseemly Haste
(The Atlantic);William Barr Did What Donald Trump Hired Him to Do (Slate); What to Make of Bill Barr's Letter (Lawfare)]
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/25/19 03:18 PM

Yes, Trump Obstructed Justice. And William Barr Is Helping Him Cover It Up. (The New Republic)
Quote:
In a letter to House and Senate leaders on Sunday, Attorney General William Barr revealed that he would not charge President Trump with obstruction of justice over his efforts to thwart the investigation into whether his campaign conspired with Russia to swing the 2016 election. In order to do so, Barr performed a remarkable gimmick that allowed him to not only break promises he made during his confirmation process, but also gloss over the crimes that Trump is suspected of committing.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/25/19 06:54 PM

There is, obviously, more to come. The collusion thing is kinda interesting. Basically the collusion thing seems to be a Republican thing more than anybody else's as they have been the ones mentioning it, over, and over, and over again. Eventually we will get the reasons why there were no charges, we just get to wait a bit longer. What was not mentioned was the possibly traitorous behavior of our dear leader, the lies of his children (they CAN be indicted), his dealings with the Russians, including debt, how wealthy he really is and any bailouts he might have experienced since becoming president, etc. Remember too that the house has virtually every committee, with subpoena power, working on this one. Pretty soon they will all have access to most of what Mueller did and probably a more detailed map of the roads to travel.

I know, we all hoped for the Mueller report to clear everything up, charge all bad guys, etc. Not gonna happen. We are now in round two - the House, and Fed, investigations. The Republicans, incidentally, are going to whine loudly about all the expense. Hopefully somebody will point out that they spent 100 million on getting Hillary, to no avail.

Remember too, Jackass has already almost presented his new budget, part of which wants to take 378 billion out of medicare in one fell swoop. This is not going to fly and the Dems and Republicans with the slightest backbones are going to have to collude to write a budget that they can agree on enough so that gov is not shutdown for the foreseeable future.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/25/19 11:34 PM



Welp, it turns out that Bill Barr has a stunning history of covering-up the shenanigans or Republican Presidents.

Say it's not so! coffee
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/26/19 05:00 AM

We should keep in mind that EVERYONE investigating Trump so far is a Republican, including Comey and Mueller. Congress is supposed to have oversight on the Executive Branch, but we all know how that has gone for the last two years. Now it's the Democrats' turn to investigate. That might just turn out a little different.

I don't see how Barr can do anything about that. For example, Mueller is now a non-employee of the Justice Department. They can subpoena him and ask in an open investigation on C-Span about anything. So Barr's and the Congress' efforts to hide the truth will all come to naught. It's pretty stupid, like you cat pulling the rug over the pile he missed getting in the litter box. It's almost like they want to get caught.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/26/19 07:42 PM

I think you are suggesting that the congress hire Mueller to investigate for them. That's actually pretty interesting. He could then hire everybody that Jackass has gotten fired? Now THAT would get interesting!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/27/19 06:47 AM

I would think they want somebody a little more enthusiastic about pointing out all the Russia connections, like Joe McCarthy for example. We could use a good Red Scare about now. I can just see all the Republicans rushing to assure everyone that they are not communists. Ronald Reagan is spinning in his grave.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/27/19 11:42 AM

[quote= We could use a good Red Scare about now. I can just see all the Republicans rushing to assure everyone that they are not communists. [/quote]

WTF!?

Seriously. Stop carrying the rights water...

Russia is more alike to our present political state than it is to communism now. Bill Clinton's economic shock doctrine saw to that.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/27/19 09:14 PM

The russian connections has been explored, I think, to exhaustion. We know about all the people that talked to them. Mueller knows what they said and, according to the four pages, nothing interesting, etc. On the other hand the Dems would be providing a living for the fired and they could try and work over Jackass, just because.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/28/19 05:16 AM

Quote:
Russia is more alike to our present political state than it is to communism now.


Putin's dictatorship is almost exactly the way the USSR worked since WW II. Communist in name only. More like organized crime than anything else. That's the form of government Trump is emulating, but most people have no idea what "communism" means, and call anything they fear and hate "communist". So I'm saying use that ignorance. Most Americans feared and hated the USSR for decades. Trump's love affair with Putin and Kim should be seen the same way.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/28/19 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Russia is more alike to our present political state than it is to communism now.


Putin's dictatorship is almost exactly the way the USSR worked since WW II. Communist in name only. More like organized crime than anything else.


No it's not. It is radically different with corresponding different social and political problems.
I don't want to distract from the Russia hysteria indulgence except to say that your comparing very different political situation today.
Russia is being run by a radically different set of circumstances than it was during the Socialist era.
It is no longer a state run capitalist planned economy. It is now an oligarchic run capitalist economy.
Wealth accumulation/disparity is unlike anything during the soviet era. Tax avoidance is similar to the U.S. as well, with billions of dollars being laundered thru banks. Much as it does in the U.S. and Europe.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/28/19 05:11 PM

Yeah, Russia isn't communist anymore and hasn't been since Putin came to power.
Putin even has a saying:

Quote:
"Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains."


What Putin seeks is restoration of an empire that more closely resembles a mix of organized crime, nationalistic state religion (Russian Orthodox) and the old Imperial Russian Empire of the Tsars.

A left wing communist style welfare state is the last thing on his mind, especially because communism welcomes all workers of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds. There is only one culture, the Russian Orthodox culture, and it only welcomes the oligarchs. All others and all else exists to service that oligarchy and only exist as the property of the oligarchy.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/28/19 07:45 PM

Quote:
There is only one culture, the Russian Orthodox culture, and it only welcomes the oligarchs. All others and all else exists to service that oligarchy and only exist as the property of the oligarchy.


Essentially the same as here. White Christian culture and corporate greed.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/28/19 09:17 PM

Speaking of Russia don't forget the Russian sect which, apparently, Jared Kushner is involved with and Putin apparently controls.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...nd-putin-215007
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/29/19 05:28 AM

So you see no similarity between the current oligarches and the former Kommissars? I think that is a naive view of the USSR's true nature. In a supposedly communist country, they were definitely more equal than any others. With their dachas, mistresses, fancy cars, etc. Don't forget anyone who objected was sent to the gulags or just disappeared. Near the end, I think the USSR was every bit as corrupt as Putin's kleptocracy. The country talked a good game, but real life it was a different story.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/29/19 01:23 PM

Wealth inequality was not near as great in the soviet era as it is today.
Tax evasion was not nearly as great as it is today.
public goods and services has been largely replaced with neoliberal (sorry NWP) privatization after the collapse.
The list goes on and you could make some case for similarities like 'the corruption is similar today as it was in the soviet era' but not nearly at the same scale.
I don't recall billions of dollars being laundered out of the country for only a few Kommissars to invest in real estate built on low lying barrier islands in Florida during the Soviet era.
The corruption and political interests are different in scale and orientation.

It would be like saying the democratic party is the same today as it was 40 years ago. Completely different ideology today than it was back then.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/29/19 09:36 PM

I think you have no idea what Russia was like before collapse. I do as I had been there. I have also been there since. There is NO comparison - it was MUCH worse before the empire collapse.

Russian Germany is a good example but it was, pretty much, the same throughout. For instance, in eastern germany something like 90% of the population was busy ratting each other out. I have a shirttale relative who was a cop in russian Bulgaria. He has stories (he actually longs for the Russians to come back but the stories are horrifying)
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/29/19 11:49 PM

You would be right about knowing about Russia before the collapse JGW. I only knew what I've read or listened too during in the years leading up to the fall of the wall. Mind you, there was as much propaganda then as now and the picture would always be murky. No, I didn't travel to Russia. I did attend lectures from those who did as it held a certian amount of fascination about what it was like.
Worked with a lot of expat Russians. Had a shirt tail relative that traveled there after the collapse. Cashing in on the high value, low wage labor force that sprang up there overnight and has been a major supplier of hi tech components for his company.
Traveling to Russia must have been fascinating at the time. Would love to hear more about that.

I'm sorry, JGW, are you saying that it IS primarily the same as it was during the Soviet era as PIA has suggested? Do you think the type of corruption and level of graft are the same?
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/30/19 06:10 PM

Russia is now run, basically, by the Russian mafia which is controlled by Putin. Corruption, therefore, is the norm. I suspect the difference is that there are different titles. I suspect, however, their economy is more efficient. An example of that one is that in the Soviet Union they actually had one boot factory making only one size of boots. Oh, an interesting fact - the Russian army boot are actually rubber boots! (can you imagine the smells in their barracks?) I was only there for a couple of days. Spent a longer time, a few years ago when we took the trans Siberian from Beijing to Moscow. At the time there was a bit of turmoil and a LOT of elderly begging on the streets. I am not, incidentally, a regular traveler, or an expert, to Russia.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 03/30/19 06:52 PM

I have been watching the TV and the Democratic response and am a bit bewildered. The AG says he will have the report ready by the middle of April (about 2 weeks). That seems fair given they have to vet a 400+ report. The house wants everything right now - they will probably get that as the groups wanting it are, in theory, okay for secret stuff. But, those whining to see everything are not likely to succeed and are not helping. I also hope, when they get the AG to interview, that they watch their mouths and not behave as the Republicans, that's true also, for Mueller, should he come and testify.

I am simply not convinced that either of those men are enemies of the Dems.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/03/19 07:41 AM

Nobody ever took four hundred pages to say that a person was innocent.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/03/19 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I have been watching the TV and the Democratic response and am a bit bewildered. The AG says he will have the report ready by the middle of April (about 2 weeks). That seems fair given they have to vet a 400+ report. The house wants everything right now - they will probably get that as the groups wanting it are, in theory, okay for secret stuff. But, those whining to see everything are not likely to succeed and are not helping. I also hope, when they get the AG to interview, that they watch their mouths and not behave as the Republicans, that's true also, for Mueller, should he come and testify.

I am simply not convinced that either of those men are enemies of the Dems.
I am as anxious as anyone to see the report, but I agree that a couple of more weeks is not the end of the world. As for "enemies of the Dems" - well, I don't. Mueller is a straight shooter, no question, and I think his response will be measured and accurate. Barr is a political animal through and through and I have absolutely no doubt he is doing everything in his power to protect the President and the party over the interests of the country.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/04/19 12:23 AM

Quote:
Mueller is a straight shooter, no question


A great big platter of "No Collusion, just like you said sir!"

If he were a straight shooter he wouldn't be a Republican. I'm guessing he voted for Donald Trump in 2016 and will again in 2020. It's how the conservative hive mind works.

You think I'm full of crap, but let's turn this telescope around and pretend that Barack Obama had committed even a fraction of the things Trump has done. And let's pretend that Mueller was investigating Obama.....

I speculate that the outcome would have been different. So yeah maybe he's a straight shooter, but he might not aim as carefully when it's one of his own in the sights.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/04/19 05:40 AM

Plenty of Republicans don't consider Trump "one of their own".

Anonymous GOP Congressman: "He gets up in the morning, he sh*ts on Twitter, he sh*ts on us, he sh*ts on his staff, and then he hits golf balls."

Another: “If we're going to lose because of him, we might as well impeach the motherf**ker. Take him out with us and let Mike [Pence] take over.”
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/04/19 07:29 PM

This whole thing is a great mystery! For instance, Mueller has presented his report and, in theory is done. However, Mueller's grand jury continues to work on 'things'. Wonders never cease! Mueller is done, Mueller is now 'helping' the AG ready his report for prime time and Mueller's grand jury continues to be busy, busy, busy.

Now add in that there are any number of other federal investigations into Trump this and thats. Then there are the investigations of the Democratic House - basically, virtually all 20 house committees.

I remain convinced that every one of these things is going to turn over some kind of a rock for the rest of us to marvel at. What amazes me is the lunacy of the Republican public servants who, true believers or to save their jobs, continue to actively support Jackass. I don't believe for a minute that Trump can survive this onslaught yet those who support him are so craven and afraid of his bombast that they continue to aggressively support him with nary a thought on the simple fact they will, eventually, have to defend their ongoing support to their voters (and, hopefully, will fail miserably). My concern about this is that their voters are so ensorcelled and ignorant, never having been exposed to Democrats and fixated on Fox News, haven't the capacity to act in their own best interest.

I also believe that 2020 elections are the Democrat's to lose. I think my main worry is the simple fact that the Dems have proven, over time, that they can not only lose but spectacularly lose. This will continue to remain my concern until ALL actually start to fight back and willing to actually take the battle to the other side. I don't mean just the candidates but the so-called lefties of TV who seem to be more concerned with bringing on those from the right to interminably spew their poison and then, apparently, being concerned with 'fairness', never call them on the obvious lies, etc. thus spewed.

I guess I should add that whilst my pronouncements seem absolute I am also a believer in "exceptions that prove the rule".
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/05/19 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger

I speculate that the outcome would have been different. So yeah maybe he's a straight shooter, but he might not aim as carefully when it's one of his own in the sights.


Just consider that Trump has been using Mueller, the FBI and all of law enforcement as a punching bag for the last two and a half years.
I am not so sure that Mueller is so in love with Trump.
The man has sullied the very concept of law and order, and let's not forget...Trump IS an organized crime boss. Maybe not Cosa Nostra Italian style, but he's a mobbed up boss, and Mueller made his bones taking down the Capo di Tutti Capi.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/05/19 01:04 AM

Quote:
Plenty of Republicans don't consider Trump "one of their own".

Those are old quotes, PIA. He owns them all now, lock stock and pork barrel. The Republican Party is little more than a subsidiary of the Trump Organization.

87% of Republicans approve of the job Trump is doing. Mueller is a Republican and is likely in that number. He could have brought Trump down. Either he chose not to or Trump is innocent. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me that Trump is innocent.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/05/19 01:18 AM

Quote:
Trump IS an organized crime boss.

Agreed. And it just so happens that Mueller is working for him now.
Cohen flipped. Meuller didn't. He kept that investigation on the straight and narrow and delivered the results that were expected by the Boss.

Yall can defend the honor of Republicans all you want. As far as I'm concerned they have none.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/05/19 06:49 PM

I don't think exactly that happened. I think Mueller is operating in the Justice Department's "can't indict a sitting President" space. So he presented all the evidence about obstruction of justice for congress to use if they want to impeach Trump. From that perspective, that's where prosecution for those crimes belongs.

We are now hearing that some members of Mueller's team are unhappy with Barr's summary letter, since they already wrote summaries. I think thus is probably because Barr only got the job because he said that Presidents can't obstruct justice, and there is good evidence in the whole report for obstruction of justice charges. Barr has not released those summaries from the report most likely because they say that the President should be charged.

hitsfan
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/06/19 07:14 PM

Barr has said that every page received had been stamped with the warning that it may contain stuff that needs redacting which is why he hasn't released yet. He has also said that he doesn't want to release piece by piece. Apparently the summaries were actually part of the report.

I also think that the committee requesting the original will probably get it too. What I want to know is why is Mueller's grand jury still running!

Barr has also said that Mueller has been helping him with the redactions. This appears to mean that Mueller seems to be onboard Barr's actions. My own thought is that they colluded to make everybody wait just to see which side won the bonkers battle, thereby reducing some pressure and providing them with a bit of levity during this trying time.

Just a thought...............
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/06/19 10:37 PM

Near as I can tell there's a sh*t load of stuff from grand jury investigations and none of that can be released. By the time the Mueller Report hits Democratic hands it will be redacted to the point of illegibility.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/07/19 10:09 PM

That may, or may not be true. The simple fact is that they are not saying anything so we wait until its released. My hope is that they will release two things. The first for general consumption and the other handed just as the house handles any other secrets. They do that almost every day so there is really no reason why they won't get the whole ball of wax. Right now we wait, whine, cry, and accuse. My hope, if I am right, is that the Dems have the common sense to apologize if it all works out instead of huffing and puffing.

There is, for instance, the senate bill to fix immigration - with a FEW fixes it might serve as a beginning?

I have hope, if I am wrong THEN its really time to have at them all.

Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/08/19 02:21 AM

There's a lot of Grand Jury stuff, but typically that stuff is secret until the jury is dismissed. So what is the Grand Jury still doing? Are some more people going to be indicted?
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/08/19 04:20 PM

My understanding is that as long as there are no indictments then the grand jury investigation remains secret to protect innocent parties.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/08/19 10:19 PM

This just in...

Redaction of Mueller Report Halted as Barr Passes Out from Sharpie Fumes

By Andy Borowitz10:45 A.M.

The New Yorker
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/09/19 07:34 PM

Barr said, this morning, that the report will be out within a week.

I also heard that several house Dems have announced that they want the entire report so that they can release it all to the public. I guess they want to release information on other investigations, testimony from the grand jury, listing all non-guilty who testified, revealing sources and procedures, etc.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/09/19 08:26 PM

Doesn't matter what they want. They will get nothing that might incriminate Trump.

Nothing.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/10/19 10:35 PM

WhyTrump wants the Mueller report and his taxes kept secret...
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/12/19 02:20 PM

I think this is an excellent example demonstrating Mr Trump's stupidity. None of the information in that article should trouble Mr Trump. None of his supporters care if he is a mobster, stealing millions from everyone including the US. His personal life and life style don't matter. Mr Trump is a bigot which speaks to his base. This is the only thing they care about. Mr Trump is one of them ... and they love him for it.

When he realizes none of it matters and the appropriate time comes when he can spin the news to make himself look good, he will shrug it off, and his base will not care.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/12/19 02:31 PM

Quote:
Mr Trump is one of them ... and they love him for it.

ThumbsUp
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/12/19 09:21 PM

I continue to believe that there is something odd is going on. Mueller continues his grand jury and, now, we are told they will release the redacted version the first week of the congressional 2 week hiatus so they can go home and work at keeping their jobs as, obviously, going back on weekends, and a couple of other days is not enough. It should also be noted that said congressional travel would be handled by the United States Airforce and free to all members of congress, their families and important aids.

I will probably continue down this pass until the redacted release, especially if 80% of it is redacted. Another might be that redactions are explained as forced on them that redacted, said redcations being based on a newly discovered secret law, written in 1792, which forces such redactions as well as the law's secrecy. In the efforts to be more transparent the redactors also supplied the original letter, of the forefathers, which explained that they considered such secrecy to be necessary due to the obvious danger to the human psyche should the facts become known to all.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/15/19 07:11 PM

Interesting:

Barr Has Summarized a Controversial Legal Document Before

Back in 1989 William Barr issued a summary of an opinion of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, justifying the abduction of Manuel Noriega. He even went before congress and testified, but refused to give them the actual opinion. Several years later, they got around to subpoena the opinion and then the next President released it. Barr's "summary" was very misleading and left some major points out! Of course he was no longer in office because of the Bush 1 to Clinton transition, but was never charged with perjury or Contempt of Congress. So don't be surprised if Barr's "summary" is totally misleading. He's done it before.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/15/19 09:20 PM

Surprised? I think I predicted it weeks ago...
Posted by: logtroll

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/15/19 09:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Surprised? I think I predicted it weeks ago...

Not to brag, but I predicted that you would predict it, I think several days before that! I just didn't tell anyone...
Posted by: logtroll

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/16/19 12:23 AM

And that is how you do a temious one-upping.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/16/19 01:32 AM

My predictions are always predictable.

I just imagine the worst possible outcome.....
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/16/19 04:41 AM

Oh, lots of us predicted Barr was not telling the whole truth. But the story about his history pretty much nails his MO.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/18/19 03:15 PM

Robert Mueller's report is out (CNN)

Quote:
"With respect to whether the President can be found to have obstructed justice by exercising his powers under Article II of the Constitution, we concluded that Congress has the authority to prohibit a President's corrupt use of his authority in order to protect the integrity of the administration of justice."
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/18/19 03:18 PM

"Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in the election interference activities,"

The report states that the evidence obtained “about the about the President's actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred.”
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/18/19 03:20 PM

"If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President's actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/18/19 03:38 PM

He was a little bit pregnant
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/18/19 05:58 PM

Quote:
Congress has the authority to prohibit a President's corrupt use of his authority in order to protect the integrity of the administration of justice


Like I said, Mueller believes the proper place for the use of that evidence is in the Senate during an impeachment trial. He did not subpoena Trump because he already had plenty of evidence. People around him conspired with the Russians plenty, some are in the criminal process for that. Trump apparently did not, other than his stupid statements on TV, mainly because he had people to do stuff like that. The head of the crime family never pulls the trigger himself. I still see RICO prosecution coming when Trump leaves office. Too many crimes to ignore.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/18/19 06:51 PM

Well, we now know that Barr is a rotter first class. The report itself seems to contain a bunch of stuff and will point the way for the house to continue its investigations. The other investigations continues without letup.

MUCH MORE TO COME!
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/18/19 09:25 PM

Quote:
MUCH MORE TO COME!

Much more what? Headlines? Tweets? Investigations going nowhere?
You guys never give up do you?

Breathlessly awaiting that one little thing that trips Trump up and sends him to jail.

Remember...way back...I promised you a train wreck? Well, it's coming, and this is a part of it. But this isn't it. It's not gonna be this easy. We'd all like to see him frogmarched down the white house steps. But when has a nation been so lucky to get rid of a dictator that easily?

Let's just say that Hitler's train wreck was World War 2 and that's more typical of what happens in a case like this.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/19/19 12:59 AM

Bit of funny theater in the report: It seems the Trump people at the Trump Tower meeting with the Russians didn't break the law because they didn't know what they were doing was illegal!

Just wow. I guess you can rob a bank now, as long as you don't know bank robbery is illegal. Has anybody considered the other side of this coin: That those people are all too stupid to hold positions at the White House?

Same goes for Obstruction of Justice: Trump issued obstructive orders several times, but the people around him refused his illegal orders. So no Obstruction charges? How about Too Stupid to Be President charges.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/19/19 06:35 AM

A confession: I've not been faithful. I spent a good deal of time today trying to keep up with posts on another forum. The rest of the day was spent reading and trying to absorb the contents of the Mueller report. Notwithstanding having a great deal of background already, there is so much disgusting behavior cataloged in the report I had to take several baths today just to get rid of the stink.

We're in serious trouble, folks. The level of criminality of this President far outstrips even Richard Nixon, and I dont say that lightly. I lived through Watergate and Iran contra. No one can read this report and think that it is in any way "good" for the President, and yet on that other board there were hundreds of posts claiming just that. I weep, literally, for my country that there are so many whose standards are so low that "he wasn't convicted" counts as a legitimate qualification for the presidency. They care that little for their country. It's disgusting.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/19/19 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Trump
I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters



Did you need something more????
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/19/19 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Bit of funny theater in the report: It seems the Trump people at the Trump Tower meeting with the Russians didn't break the law because they didn't know what they were doing was illegal!

Just wow. I guess you can rob a bank now, as long as you don't know bank robbery is illegal. Has anybody considered the other side of this coin: That those people are all too stupid to hold positions at the White House?

Same goes for Obstruction of Justice: Trump issued obstructive orders several times, but the people around him refused his illegal orders. So no Obstruction charges? How about Too Stupid to Be President charges.


Whatever happened to "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
That's what countless judges have thundered from their lofty perch at countless perps when being arraigned and sentenced.

Apparently that thunder only exists at sea level, but not atop Mount Olympus, where the biggest criminals get to live. I guess it's not really thunder at all, just "swamp gas".
Posted by: logtroll

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/20/19 12:19 AM

Trump said the Mueller Report completely exonerates him and that it is total bullshit.

Perfect...
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/20/19 02:29 AM

I think Trump will be able to skirt past any obstruction charge. Because Republicans don't see obstruction as a crime when a Republican does it...and because he has become a de facto dictator.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/20/19 03:39 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
...The level of criminality of this President far outstrips even Richard Nixon, and I dont say that lightly. I lived through Watergate and Iran contra. No one can read this report and think that it is in any way "good" for the President, and yet on that other board there were hundreds of posts claiming just that...


The modern Right-winger is a sociopath the nth degree who only cares about winning.

I say we cut this folks loose and give them their own country. Seriously. Hmm
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/20/19 03:55 AM

Well, he actually said some parts are total bullshit. Just the parts that don't exonerate him, like Mueller's 10 part list of obstructive events. He likes the first part that says in spite of a huge number of contacts with Russians, nothing Trump is known to have done is prosecutable for conspiracy against the US.

I think that's going to be the campaign slogan for 2020: "Not indicted!"
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/20/19 06:32 AM



Lawrence O'Donnell finds video of Sarah Hucksterbee Colonel-Sanders lied to the Mueller team:



Lock her up!! Lock her up!! smile
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/20/19 01:07 PM

"I say we cut this folks loose and give them their own country. Seriously."

Agreed! I hear there is an uninhabited patch of floating plastic trash in the middle of the Pacific...
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/20/19 02:48 PM


Mueller's report showed the degree and depth of the Russian active measures, propaganda, and intelligence warfare efforts which allowed Trump’s 2016 victory over Hillary Clinton.

Trump needs to be removed from Office. He's an illegitimate President. All of his EOs and SCOTUS appointments need to be nullified.

Hmm
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/20/19 03:22 PM

Perhaps the most salient feature of the Mueller Report is the calcification of the notion the president is above the law.

There is only one rebuttal which I will demonstrate is fallacious. You will say Congress can impeach and convict a president, then he may be indicted and tried. But please notice how you are arguing my claim.

First, until a president is convicted of impeachment charges, he is still the president and still not accountable legally i.e. he is above the law. Second, should a president be convicted of impeachment proceedings, and then be indicted, he would no longer be a president and would therefore be an ordinary citizen.

I do not think the Founders had that in mind.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/21/19 03:27 AM

The Founding Fathers obviously thought that the upper House of Congress would consist of the most respectable and honorable people of their state. Men who would act for The Republic and The Constitution over party politics. Since that no longer seems to be true, the current form of government may no longer work.

Maybe an Act of God will take out the Republican Convention and save the Republic. Let us pray...
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/21/19 03:29 AM

They certainly never imagined anyone like Donald John Trump being elected by any sentient electorate. But when you think about it, Americans have never been really good at electing great leaders.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/22/19 04:24 AM

I suspect it has a lot to do with the end of teaching civics in High School a number of years ago. I remember my World Affairs class as a senior. We clipped articles out of the local newspaper and put them up on a divided bulletin board, pro-Republican on the right and pro-Democrat on the left. Boy howdy, that was revealing! After a few weeks we ran out of room on the right side.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/22/19 05:14 PM

You are right about the high school thing. I would add, a bit off the subject, that home economics should also be returned so the graduate understands, if nothing else, how to boil an egg.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/23/19 05:47 AM

Home Ec was a means to teach women how to be successful wives. Shop class was a means to teach men the skills they didn't teach in Home Ec. I think we are screwing up if we are not teaching both to both sexes. We also need to teach them how to manage a checking account. How to save money for big purchases and retirement. How to buy a house. How to drive a car, register it, finance it.

I would also teach both boys and girls how to be adults, how to please somebody else, how to be responsible with sex and reproduction, how to get along with people, and how to stay on the right side of the law. A lot of these things were things your parents would teach you, but these days those parents may not know themselves. Just watching a single daytime conflict show tells you we are doing something horribly wrong.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/23/19 01:22 PM

This has always been a paradox for me.

Parents should be the ones who teach all of the things necessary to manage ones life, but the flaw is not every parent knows how to do that.

So do we indoctrinate students in how to be productive citizens for the state or do we leave that to the vagaries of incompetent parents? Or make up your own take on this conundrum.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/23/19 03:29 PM

Quote:
I would also teach both boys and girls how to be adults, how to please somebody else, how to be responsible with sex and reproduction, how to get along with people, and how to stay on the right side of the law. A lot of these things were things your parents would teach you, but these days those parents may not know themselves. Just watching a single daytime conflict show tells you we are doing something horribly wrong.


These days...

So you imagine sometime in the past that parents and schools taught all these life skills better than today? And if we just Make America Great Again™ everything will return to normal?

I have experience from the post War2 era when the middle class in America rose to its ultimate glory...nobody taught me s***.

Maybe all that was happening during the war? Or perhaps during the depression years? The Roaring Twenties? World War 1? Maybe religion took care of all that back in the days before rock and roll.

But I don't think so. I think we're looking at a long string of chaotic history where people did the best they could to survive with what little information they were given up front.

Kids are drowning in information these days. They don't need to be taught to farm and f*ck and pray. Shop class isn't going to help kids enter the robotically controlled and computer operated world of today.

Home Economics is not going to prepare women to be better housewives. Who the f*ck even has time to be a "housewife" in this day and age?

What we think we know and what we think is best for today's youth is entirely bullshit. The world has passed us by and we haven't improved on it much as it did.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/23/19 07:28 PM

Obviously you know how to cook well enough to feed yourself very well. Some of these kids have no idea and end up just eating fast food and prepackaged snack junk. That may be the main difference between productive adults and welfare recipients. I know how to cook and I do quite often. My little sister the welfare grifter knows how to buy a bucket of KFC.

Just go to WalMart: Nobody's buying carrots or celery, but they have a huge Little Debbie's section.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/23/19 08:34 PM

So your parents taught you all the right things but failed to do the same for your sister?

When I got married at 26 I couldn't cook for sh*t. My wife was a little younger and all she ate was canned green beans and Cambell's Gumbo Soup. I had no idea how to manage a checking account, buy a house, or anything else.
We learned together how to be adults, the same way kids are doing it now and the same way they've always done it.

But they've got Youtube tutorials to show them everything they need to know. All the world's collected knowledge is right at their fingertips. I expect great things to happen once they finally take over.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/24/19 09:02 AM

Essentially, yes. That's what happened. I left home at 17 when my little sis was 7. As soon as I moved out, my mother left and took my sister with her. So she did not have the same parenting experience at all. My father was a professor of Education. He had me solving quadratic equations at age 10. I worked and got a BS at the same time. My sister was a high school dropout who has never worked a day in her life.
Posted by: Ardy

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/25/19 03:19 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Home Ec was a means to teach women how to be successful wives. Shop class was a means to teach men the skills they didn't teach in Home Ec. I think we are screwing up if we are not teaching both to both sexes. We also need to teach them how to manage a checking account. How to save money for big purchases and retirement. How to buy a house. How to drive a car, register it, finance it.

I would also teach both boys and girls how to be adults, how to please somebody else, how to be responsible with sex and reproduction, how to get along with people, and how to stay on the right side of the law. A lot of these things were things your parents would teach you, but these days those parents may not know themselves. Just watching a single daytime conflict show tells you we are doing something horribly wrong.


I have often had similar thought. We spent so much time in high school... what did we learn? It is not surprising that many kids wind up screwing up their lives... especially if they do not have parents who teach them this stuff. And the sick part is that, so often, kids do not want to listen to their parents... so it would be much better to have a “life skills” class
—-+
After a long time i just dropped by to say hi
Ardy
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/25/19 03:23 AM


Hi Ardy, welcome back. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/25/19 03:25 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
You are right about the high school thing. I would add, a bit off the subject, that home economics should also be returned so the graduate understands, if nothing else, how to boil an egg.

1. Place egg into a pan of cold water.
2. Place on heat source.
3. Turn timer to 21 minutes.
4. Turn heat source on high.
5. When timer goes off, remove egg(s) from hot water.
6. Immerse egg(s) into an ice-water bath.



The prefect hard-cooked egg with no green ring. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/25/19 03:27 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
...I think we are screwing up if we are not teaching both to both sexes...

I came of age during the Title IX Era. Boys HAD to have one quarter of HomeEc. Girls HAD to have one quarter of Shop.

smile
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/25/19 05:43 AM

I was pretty much self-taught on cooking. My parents cooked and I watched and learned. They were surprised to discover I had made myself french toast for breakfast one day when my classes started well after they both left for work. I just told them it was no big deal because I'd seen them do it. So I cooked my own breakfast from age 10 or so. I was very good at reading and they had a Betty Crocker cookbook.

But as far as school, I'm older than Title IX: So no Home Ec for me but shop classes out the wazoo.
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/25/19 03:22 PM

Since we seem to be exposing parts of our upbringing. I was taught to cook, sew, knit, crochet, darn, do laundry (machine and by hand) iron and so on by my mother. From my step-father, use of tools, and building things; nothing fancy, but yearly Christmas platforms and trains. The military taught me how to clean and love of country. School held not Home Economics classes for us boys, but I did have three years of Print Shop and Astronomy Classes and was a member of the Astronomy Club, the HS had its own Planetarium. Social Science taught me how to write a check, balance a checkbook, read financial statements and invest in and track stocks and how to be a good citizen. And after school, the NRA (decades before they went ape sh*t) taught me how to shoot, gun safety and the responsibilities of gun ownership. Oh, yea, in case you have not noticed, I did miserably in English.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/26/19 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I was pretty much self-taught on cooking. My parents cooked and I watched and learned. They were surprised to discover I had made myself french toast for breakfast one day when my classes started well after they both left for work. I just told them it was no big deal because I'd seen them do it. So I cooked my own breakfast from age 10 or so. I was very good at reading and they had a Betty Crocker cookbook.

But as far as school, I'm older than Title IX: So no Home Ec for me but shop classes out the wazoo.
I HAD to cook before school, or else I got to eat my mom's cooking. Loved her dearly, but, um... she wasn't talented in the kitchen. (Thank god for Hamburger Helper!) I learned a lot about cooking in the Boy Scouts, and other life lessons, but I really learned the details when I was in college. It turns out my dad was an excellent cook, but he wouldn't do it at home because that was "women's work." (A different generation.) I did, however, learn sewing and darning socks (who does that anymore?) from my mom, as well as balancing a checkbook. Typing was a class in school. My sons both got "modern living" classes in school that taught living basics like banking, cooking, etc.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/26/19 08:32 PM

Back on topic:

Psychiatrists Say Mueller Report Offers More Proof Of Trump’s Mental Decline

Quote:
Trying to fire Mueller despite the clear downside shows the president can’t rationally process risk, a new study states.

The claim that the Mueller Report documents several instances when Trump tried to fire Mueller with no thought to the dangerous consequences. This inability to see consequences and plan ahead is typical of people with Alzheimer's Disease. They do not attempt to diagnose, but they want an expert evaluation. The White House referred them to Gina Loudon:

Quote:
(Loudon, who calls herself “Dr. Gina,” is not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but rather a conservative radio and television personality with a doctorate in “human and organization systems” from an online college. She is, however, a vocal Trump supporter whose book the president promoted in a tweet last year.)
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/27/19 02:19 AM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I HAD to cook before school, or else I got to eat my mom's cooking. Loved her dearly, but, um... she wasn't talented in the kitchen.odern living" classes in school that taught living basics like banking, cooking, etc.

For whatever reason, my mom thought it a great idea to start baking bread instead of buying the store stuff when I was in 6th grade. It was the most gawd-awful stuff ever. I couldn't even trade my lunch because my mom's bread eventually earned a bad reputation at a school too.

One day, a lady from the Office came to our classroom and asked: "Who wants to work in the cafeteria? You'll earn a free lunch for about 15mins of work."

I worked in the school cafeteria every day for 15-20mins for a free lunch from the rest of 6th grade to 12th grade. The Cafeteria ladies always hooked us school workers up, big time. smile

Because of THAT job, is actually the reason why I got a BS Degree in Nutrition. I wanted to be a Food Service Director for a school district. The highest I ever got was Buyer and Menu Planner. The problem was, I'm an X'er and there were too many Boomers hogging-up the good jobs, like Food Service Director.

...and now you know, the rest of the story. laugh
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/27/19 04:35 AM

I worked in the school cafeteria in junior high myself. But all I ever got to do was run the industrial dishwasher. Not very inspiring.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/27/19 12:46 PM



In middle school, I was a cashier, or I ran the juice/milk cart. We rotated positions. In High School, I worked the snack shack. Back then Hostess Fruit Pies (Apple or Cherry) and Carnation Ice Cream Sandwich Bars were the big sellers. smile

We also sold juice, milk, and cookies.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/27/19 02:11 PM



I cannot disagree. This rant is 100% spot-on. Hmm


Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/27/19 11:36 PM

Quote:
This inability to see consequences and plan ahead is typical of people with Alzheimer's Disease

OK ... I can't stand this.

It seems that everyone believes Mr Trump is a rational human person and then analyze him from that perspective. Come on folks!!!! He is a narcissist. He has been a narcissist all of his life, unless anyone thinks a person with Alzheimer's can present at an early age.

Occam ... remember Occam

No assumptions have to be made ... just a thoughtful analysis of his life time actions ... the conclusion should be .... he has NPD which should not be so unbelievable as it explains his actions without resorting to assuming he is rational and then trying to conclude degrading etc.

KISS
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/28/19 01:56 AM

There is no reason he can't have both. His father had Alzheimer's Disease and if you look at Trump's old interview videos, he used to be much more articulate and had a normal vocabulary. Now he substitutes words (oranges for origins), makes up new words like "bigly" (typical of people who have forgotten a word) and has the vocabulary of an elementary school student. He also seems to have some short term memory problems, which manifest as saying one thing and then reversing himself the next day. Then claiming he never made the first statement. He does have psychological problems, but I suspect there's something going on in his brain and it seems to be getting worse. Somebody competent in such matters needs to have a look.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/28/19 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
He does have psychological problems, but I suspect there's something going on in his brain and it seems to be getting worse. Somebody competent in such matters needs to have a look.


Well, go and have that look but please, keep letting him gorge on KFC and McDonald's, as much as he wants. Maybe nature will just take its course and he'll vapor lock and just make those spastic gestures and babble like he did on the campaign trail, but because he can no longer do otherwise.


Then they'll have to 25A his dumb ass.
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/30/19 12:13 AM

I have the same suspicion about his mental state. However, memory loss is not altzeimers. It can be part of that but is not even really indicative. I, for instance, have memory problems and taht's a fact. However, I have been told, by a neurologist that specializes in such that I am not a candidate for altzeimers. My that too had serious memory loss which his wife thought was altzeimer. I sent them both up to Virginia Mason - neither had Altzeimer's.

However, serious memory problems are SERIOUS! You can forget little stuff like your name, where you are at, who you are, etc. You don't have to act out to have memory loss.

Anyway, just saying, one is not necessarily the other. On reflection I don't think you said that either but some might not understand.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/30/19 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
There is no reason he can't have both. His father had Alzheimer's Disease and if you look at Trump's old interview videos, he used to be much more articulate and had a normal vocabulary. Now he substitutes words (oranges for origins), makes up new words like "bigly" (typical of people who have forgotten a word) and has the vocabulary of an elementary school student. He also seems to have some short term memory problems, which manifest as saying one thing and then reversing himself the next day. Then claiming he never made the first statement. He does have psychological problems, but I suspect there's something going on in his brain and it seems to be getting worse. Somebody competent in such matters needs to have a look.


Trump needs to be put on a time-out until we can figure this thing out. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/30/19 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I have the same suspicion about his mental state. However, memory loss is not altzeimers. It can be part of that but is not even really indicative. I, for instance, have memory problems and taht's a fact. However, I have been told, by a neurologist that specializes in such that I am not a candidate for altzeimers. My that too had serious memory loss which his wife thought was altzeimer. I sent them both up to Virginia Mason - neither had Altzeimer's.

However, serious memory problems are SERIOUS! You can forget little stuff like your name, where you are at, who you are, etc. You don't have to act out to have memory loss.

Anyway, just saying, one is not necessarily the other. On reflection I don't think you said that either but some might not understand.


Stage 3 syphilis. Hmm , coffee
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/30/19 04:50 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Stage 3 syphilis. Hmm , coffee


Rick,
I seriously doubt you are afflicted with that but you are afflicted with being over your Rant Private Message limit and I need to get in touch with you. smile I am forced to reach out to you here.

Please contact me.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/30/19 06:08 PM

I agree he may be suffering from early stages of dementia. I don't want to make light of it but I don't think that is the major explanation for his actions and words. NPD has been the primary animus for most if not all of his words and actions. This personality disorder may be adversely influenced by dementia and in fact it may exacerbate his NPD because of associated symptoms of paranoia and delusions not associated with NPD. Already he threatens his real political enemies. but I can not imagine what he would do if he is threatened by imaginary enemies or sees imaginary threats from foreign powers.

Scary
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 04/30/19 08:39 PM

I also think that Jackass believes everything he says, even if he changes his mind, has two conflicting claims, he believes it when he says it. I think the best thing about the whole thing is to listen to true believers "explain' this whole thing. Talk about personal fantasies!

Jackass deals in, and believes, different realities - his explainers, however, deal with single lies, not the fact, for instance, that he stood on three sides of whatever in about 3 minutes.

I rarely, anymore, pay any attention to him as it rarely makes any sense.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/01/19 06:07 AM

Quote:
I can not imagine what he would do if he is threatened by imaginary enemies

It's pretty obvious he already does. His comments and actions toward Central American refugees is chock full of fears of "the other". He does use that kind of fear to manipulate his followers, but I get the feeling it is not 100% cynical: He really does fear MS-13 is going to infiltrate the US. (Despite the fact that MS-13 originated in the US!)
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/01/19 06:20 AM

I see Mueller is pissed:

Mueller Told William Barr He Mischaracterized His Findings

Quote:
Mueller complained to Barr that his four-page letter “did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance,” of the special counsel report, according to the Post.

“There is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation. This threatens to undermine a central purpose for which the Department appointed the Special Counsel: to assure full public confidence in the outcome of the investigations,” Mueller wrote in a March 27 letter, the Post said.


I think Barr implied that Mueller was on board because it was reported that Mueller was working with Barr on the redactions. No wonder Barr is pissing his pants over his House testimony. His testimony and Mueller's are likely to be quite different!
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/02/19 04:27 AM



Looks like Trump's hand-picked AG Obstructed Justice and lied to the American People just like what Fatass Trump wanted in an AG.

Who's going to hire these people once Trump is out of Office? They won't be able to get that Trump stank off of them.

Hmm
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/02/19 05:27 AM

Bill Barr demonstrated today that he should not be Attorney General and should face impeachment. His dissembling and outright lying was astounding. I am glad there is a Mueller letter to commemorate Barr's dishonesty. Some of the excuses he made for the President today would be outlandish coming from Rudy Giuliani, but this man is the Attorney General! He acted exactly as if he were Trump's defense attorney, not a federal employee. He's gotta go.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/02/19 06:48 AM

Quote:
They won't be able to get that Trump stank off of them.


Like I said, you'll be FAR better off being known as somebody Trump fired for refusing to break the law or lie for him, rather than as a Trump toadie who broke the law for him and then went to prison. If you do break the law or lie, it will be found out and that will follow you the rest of your professional life. We seem to have reached the point where lies or criminal acts will be found immediately, because of all the scrutiny. Your protection disappears in 555 days.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/02/19 04:24 PM

Jim Mattis and H.R. McMaster may have salvaged their reputations with their departures, but I'm sure they are scarred.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/02/19 07:00 PM

where are the books????
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/16/19 03:03 AM

The thought just crossed my little pointy head, I have often wondered what the German people thought about the ascent of Hitler ... surely there were more anti-Nazis than supporters. Perhaps the people just got tired.

Have we entered the same paradigm? Are people simply tired of the assault on our senses and just don't care anymore??
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/16/19 06:43 AM

I think there is a rhythm for autocrats, and a methodology. It requires a steady drumbeat and the audacity to ignore contrary opinion and fact. The Trump administration is proving the most corrupt in American history, and not by a little. The Mueller report showed this in spades, yet Trump's sycophantic followers refuse to acknowledge any wrong. It is mindbending to see it in operation.

At this point not only may impeachment be inevitable, but we are truly in a constitutional crisis. Trump is defying all constraints on his behavior, and being abetted by a corrupt party that refuses to exercise any independent behavior or judgment. In that sense it is like the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party.

We are at an existential crisis for our nation. Are there still American values and standards or is it truly party/ tribe über alles? I'm so scared it keeps me up at night. I'm actually concerned that Trump may refuse to accept his loss in 2020, and the GOP may go along. His followers have already demonstrated a propensity for violence, and a mindless acceptance of anything he does.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/16/19 02:16 PM

The 2020 will be the most seminal election in our nations history. The survival of American Democracy is at stake.

Vote ... and vote often
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/16/19 03:31 PM

Quote:
The 2020 will be the most seminal election in our nations history.


Don't they say that about every election?

Trump refusing to leave if he's defeated? They say that too. Every presidential year anyway.

I've been a democrat for a long time. I've learned to accept and embrace disappointment.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/16/19 06:04 PM

Quote:
Don't they say that about every election?

I guess for cynics as yourself using soundbites doesn't do a lot for you. Look back at say the last 10 cycles. Is there any one of them which in your opinion was so important it would change the future of democracy? I don't think so.

This election however is a referendum on American values and exceptionalism. Re-electing Mr Trump would ensconce bigotry as American. Re-electing Mr Trump would ensure the Constitution does not matter. Re-electing Mr Trump guarantees there are selected people who are above the law. Not since 1860 has there been an election of such importance.

We are at a crucial intersection, to determine the future of our Democracy. Imagine if you lived in 1933 Germany. Future German democracy was at stake and it should have been clear to all. A mesmerizing demagogue promoting bigotry and anti-Semitism, should feel familiar, especially when listening to a Trump rally. The only difference is the crowd is not marching around carrying flags and banners.

Quote:
Trump refusing to leave if he's defeated?

While it may be true some Democrats have said that about Pres Bush, there was never any real reason to think it. With Mr Trump there is every reason to not just consider it but think seriously about it. He laid the foundation for a rigged election. His Base believes elections are rigged against them. He has laid the foundation for a deep state conspiracy out to get him. He claims there was a coup attempt. And his Base believes him. He tramples all the norms (this is not just his style ... he doesn't believe in the Constitution) of governing. Mr Trump tries to govern as if he were a king.

So the question is, why would he consider leaving the WH if he lost.

I am not a Democrat, but can empathize with your disappointment,
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/17/19 05:43 AM

Anybody who worries about Trump refusing to leave if he loses. ignores the fact that somebody else wins and becomes President on Jan 20th. Trump becomes a pathetic loser who has had a major psychotic break. Meanwhile the new President is Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces, head of the Executive Branch, etc. The Secret Service will protect the President. All they'll do for Mr. Trump is put him on a helicopter ala Nixon. These are professionals with a sworn duty to the Constitution, not Trump.

Everybody in the Executive Branch works for the President, not for Mr. Trump. The only Trump loyalists are people he installed who are unemployed on January 20th.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/17/19 02:03 PM

Quote:
if he loses. ignores the fact that somebody else wins and becomes President on Jan 20th

Yes I believe I mentioned the fact we in America have a tradition of a peaceful, voluntary transition. However, you have ignored the extreme partisanship which devours America today. Consider Gen Flynn: if he is in command of military forces he may have ordered the protection of Mr Trump to remain as occupant of WH because there was a fraudulent election. How many more high ranking military leaders are there who implicitly support Mr Trump as the savior of America more than they support the Constitution? Also remember the date, 20 Jan. Between election day and inauguration day a lot can happen.

The only reason to even consider the unimaginable is because Mr Trump has exhibited a pattern of actions which assault the rule of law, especially the Constitution. He is a narcissist and as such does not consider losing a part of his delusion.

The only question which remains is would the military, law enforcement uphold their oath to the Constitution? Look around. I suspect if a poll were taken 30-40% would feel they should protect Mr Trump first. We live in a crazy world where all the previous norms no longer apply.

Quote:
The only Trump loyalists are people he installed who are unemployed on January 20th
If these are normal times ... yes. He has made a concerted effort to replace everyone with loyalists. He has packed the court with people who are sympathetic to him. Part of his disorder to getting people to love him, to praise him, to be loyal to him.

I don't trust the military. So what would you do if the military supported Mr Trump's continued residence in the WH? Call for the marines? They are the ones protecting him.

Mr Trump should not be considered in the context of what has gone before. Use the lens of dictatorial strongmen as the focal point. That should offer a proper perspective. Think Maduro. Imagine the Russians supporting Mr Trump's continued occupancy of the WH ... how does that feel?

Not saying that is what will happen. I am saying there is a higher probability than 0 it could happen.
Posted by: Greger

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/17/19 02:51 PM

From the looks of things Trump is going to win in 2020 anyway so the point is somewhat moot...

Biden will never beat him. But centrist boomers will still try to elect him.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/17/19 05:12 PM

I can't disagree with the statement, it would appear Mr Trump may win.

I'll say it again ... unless there is a charismatic candidate who frames Mr Trump for what he is, a 12 year old bully who insults people rather than discuss the issues, a bigot who would rather elevate white supremacists, a vapid intellect incapable of comprehending complex ideas, a manager who prefers chaos to order, and a person who is so impulsive he is a danger to American security, I don't hold much hope for removing him from occupancy of the WH. The candidate must remove the gloves. It is no holds barred. Hitting below the belt is allowed.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/17/19 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick


I cannot disagree. This rant is 100% spot-on. Hmm





I love all the handwringing about Barr's wiseass comment to Pelosi, "Did you bring your handcuffs?"
What's the problem? Arrest his fat ass and put him in jail.
Congress doesn't HAVE a jail, you say?
No problem, lock his fat ass in a conference room!
What, you think that pink pudgy Care Bear can pull a jailbreak or something?
Toss in some Adult Depends, taxpayers shouldn't have to have Nancy Pelosi pay someone to scrub his shorts.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/18/19 02:47 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Anybody who worries about Trump refusing to leave if he loses. ignores the fact that somebody else wins and becomes President on Jan 20th. Trump becomes a pathetic loser who has had a major psychotic break. Meanwhile the new President is Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces, head of the Executive Branch, etc. The Secret Service will protect the President. All they'll do for Mr. Trump is put him on a helicopter ala Nixon. These are professionals with a sworn duty to the Constitution, not Trump.

Everybody in the Executive Branch works for the President, not for Mr. Trump. The only Trump loyalists are people he installed who are unemployed on January 20th.
That post warms the cockles of my heart. smile
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/18/19 06:00 PM

Which is, unfortunately, why Jackass is trying to install loyalists into any office he can find. The latest coup was HIS attorney general. I don't know about the military but I betcha he is working pretty hard on that group too. I wonder what he promises. Those taking the bait will, eventually, get screwed over by Jackass too. One can only wonder what these loyalists were thinking. The Jackass history is, basically, screw everybody that comes into range. I think there is even a book on this one called, I think, "Everything Trump touches, dies". Haven't read it but the title suggested I am probably close?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/18/19 07:39 PM

Almost every appointed position ends with a new President. If we get some Senate Republicans who have a come to Jesus epiphany in the 2020 election, we could even impeach the Trump judges who were rated "Not Qualified" by the bar. Probably not the ones who were rated "Azzhole, but qualified."
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/19/19 05:21 PM

My fond hope, again, is that, with all these investigations, somebody is going to find somebody. I watched "the trump family business" on tv the other night. It documented, pretty well, that they are feathering their own nests, the whole family, with what can only be termed a criminal enterprise and this was on TV! If reporters can get this stuff then what in the hell is everybody else doing?

What we really need is well documented stuff so that the Republican elected can see the errors of their ways so they can get re-elected. If not they will be fair game.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/19/19 06:54 PM

Quote:
What we really need is well documented stuff so that the Republican elected can see the errors of their ways...

Self-reflection requires intelligence so all hope is lost in that regard right there... coffee
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/20/19 04:22 AM

People don't see stuff they don't want to see. And Republicans sure don't want to see they have been supporting an organized crime Don as their leader.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/20/19 11:44 AM

I don't want the Republicans to see the error of their ways until they are voted out of office in droves and think, "what the heck happened?"

(A close second would be enough jumping ship to remove Trump before 2020 - and then we can vote them out.)
Posted by: jgw

Re: The Mueller Report - 05/20/19 08:24 PM

I think what we are all doing is just what we were doing before the Mueller Report, ie. hoping against hope that the goods on Jackass get revealed. So far, as far as I can tell the investigations in the house haven't exactly displayed anything even vaguely damning. Then we have all the investigations being carried out by DOJ investigators. Everybody seems to have high hopes for those to but, given the current AG I would venture that those are not likely to reveal anything much before they get shutdown.

I don't know if anybody watched "The Trump Family Business" but it was the most damning report so far and, pretty much, demonstrated that the Trump empire is a criminal enterprise (its also on youtube right now). So, I still have the question. If CNN can produce a show like this then when is at least one of the dozens of ongoing investigations going to find out anything?

Perhaps we are the ones wrong?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: The Mueller Report - 06/01/19 01:57 AM

This is interesting:
Federal Prosecutors Ignore Court Order

Quote:
Several legal experts also told the Post that the Justice Department’s reaction was highly unusual and that [Judge] Sullivan is unlikely to let the refusal slide.

The government also failed to release material from another one of the judge’s requests: an unredacted version of portions of special counsel Robert Mueller’s report that related to Flynn.


I wonder if some Justice Department lawyers are going to get disbarred over this.