Hitler vs Trump

Posted by: jgw

Hitler vs Trump - 08/06/19 05:37 PM

Hitler took power with about 33% of the vote.
Trump currently owns about 33% of the vote.
Trump has said; "I am not leaving office".
Trump's first wife said that he keeps 2 books by the bed;
"Mein Kampf"
a book of Mussolini speeches.
Trump has also been grooming his private Gestapo called "Ice"

Google "hitler support timeline to power"

Just saying ................
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/06/19 06:07 PM

So how'd all that work out for Hitler? I think they found his teeth.
You wanna Google stuff? Google "Mussolini hanging". This is the ultimate fate of fascists.

Neither of them is remembered for making their countries great again.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/06/19 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
So how'd all that work out for Hitler? I think they found his teeth.
You wanna Google stuff? Google "Mussolini hanging". This is the ultimate fate of fascists.

Neither of them is remembered for making their countries great again.


The cost to ensure that it didn't work out for them was in excess of forty million souls.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/06/19 10:16 PM

Hopefully we can slash prices and vote this guy out in 2020. End of problem. Minimum lives lost.

If he's re-elected it could go into the billions of souls lost.

I'm okay with it either way. I'm a big picture kinda guy. One surefire way to cut off a bunch of carbon emissions would be to kill half the population. Half the rest would probably die off attempting to survive in a world where the weather has gone mad. Eventually the dust would settle and an entirely new civilization arise. They will worship the Earth as a living goddess and vilify the Daemon Trump who is held back only by the will of the people and the gates of the underworld. So yeah, I'm thinking ahead a bit.

Hitler vs Trump? Hitler was a lot smarter and actually had a grand plan. If he'd avoided the racism thing he might have succeeded. Trump is just a grifter filling his pockets before he gets kicked out.

I have serious doubts about the veracity of that book story too. It's way over his head. We're all pretty sure he's dyslexic by now and doesn't read anything.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/07/19 04:46 AM

Hitler was an idiot: He killed some of his best minds when he decided the Jews were the perfect scapegoat. He invaded Western Europe and then he attacked Russia too. Bonehead move caused by believing your own propaganda. The Germans were so superior they couldn't lose! HA!

He should have just gobbled up a few small surrounding countries like the Soviets did later, and nobody much would have cared. And not by blitzkrieg, but by politics and economics. He could have ended up with the EU, with Germany at the head. If he just did it slow and careful, Germany would be running the world by now.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/07/19 04:12 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
If he just did it slow and careful, Germany would be running the world by now.


For a little while they sort of were, until that nasty bit of Brexit wiped that out. The Russkies are tickled pink by all the Brexit Balkanization going on.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/07/19 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
If he just did it slow and careful, Germany would be running the world by now.


For a little while they sort of were, until that nasty bit of Brexit wiped that out. The Russkies are tickled pink by all the Brexit Balkanization going on.


But modern Germany got where they are through social democracy, not fascism. The UK is being torn apart by white supremacy and nationalism just like us and at the heart of the Brexit movement is immigration
Brexit's gonna f*ck the UK up bad. Scotland's gonna secede, Northern Ireland aint happy about it, UK wants all the rights and privileges without the EU membership. Ten years down the road they'll come crawling back to Germany and begging for re-admission.

Hitler screwed up when he went the racist route.

Trump screwed up that morning when he attacked The Squad and made the 2020 elections about racism.

Everyone is just waiting for November 2020 to hand him a gun and send him into the bunker.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/07/19 09:21 PM

Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/07/19 09:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!


Trump himself is on record as expressing a desire to be Prez-4-Life, but even if he's joking, a fairly impressive number of his most hardcore supporters aren't.
Hence the nonstop demonizing of Democrats and liberals in general as "unamerican", "America-hating" and "enemies of the state" all add up to a soft form of codespeak which can, given enough momentum, become a somewhat less soft form of stochastic terrorism.

How far one wishes to ratchet up the agitprop is anybody's guess but as we all bear witness to, it's been ratcheted up pretty far by others in the past, and Trump is nothing if not a fan of hyperbole.

I find hair-splitting about whether or not he's "according to Hoyle" Hitler to be a waste of time, simply because we should not stand around waiting to see if he's going to check off the remaining boxes.

We have to vote him out, and maybe next time, Republicans will come up with someone better.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/07/19 11:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!


Agreed. Trump isn't half the man Hitler was and probably won't be remembered as fondly.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/08/19 12:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!

It's clear that Trump would like to be, though. Let's do him a favor and remove the opportunity...
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/08/19 01:06 AM

When we use words, I like for us all to be using the same definitions for them.

to·tal·i·tar·i·an

1.
relating to a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.
"a totalitarian regime"
synonyms: authoritarian, autocratic, autarchic, dictatorial, tyrannical, oppressive, repressive, one-party, monocratic, absolute, absolutist, undemocratic, antidemocratic, illiberal, despotic, fascist, fascistic, Nazi, neo-Nazi, Stalinist; dystopian
"a totalitarian state"

From all I can gather about his leadership style Donald Trump is definitely an authoritarian. Not much doubt about whether he's an autocrat either. Autarchic?*sighs and Googles* Yeah that too. Really not an uncommon trait among corporate moguls....jeeeex he's all of those things! Except the Nazi stuff. Trump comes from a completely different place. I don't know if he's even a racist.
Donald Trump is classist. He has no issue with people of color who he perceives to be in the same class as him. Crown Prince Mohammad bin Bloodyhands is a Muslim who is welcome here any time...

So yeah....If the above definition is the one were going to use then Donald John Trump is a totalitarian.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/08/19 07:42 PM

Totalitarian
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=totalitarian
Posted by: logtroll

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/08/19 11:36 PM

Il Douche d'Orange.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/09/19 03:28 AM

def totalitarian::"relating to a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state" and let me quote King Louis XIV, "L'etat c'est moi" (I am the state)

When people make the comparison they are implying Mr Trump would like to have a centralized state with complete dictatorial control over that state ... and remember he requires complete subservience to the state ... for he is the state.

If the comparison eludes one .... look with objectivity
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/09/19 03:34 AM

Trump and his followers share that childish fantasy. ( "L'etat c'est moi" ) It reflects a complete misunderstanding of how America's political system works. We've had Checks and Balances right from the start. An assault on it is an assault on America.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/10/19 08:52 PM

Quote:
"Communism killed more people than the Nazis did!"


Why does this oft-repeated piece of apologetics keep getting repeated on an endless loop all day long by the Right?
Is it a veiled means of inoculating against criticism of Nazism.
What is the expected response, something along the lines of
"Hey, I might be a Nazi but we're better than the commies!" ??
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 04:36 AM

And don't forget: "Hitler was a Socialist because his Party was named National Socialist."

Yeah, just like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy.

Actually the Nazis rounded up and sent to the Death Camps any leftist they could find very early in the Third Reich.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 12:51 PM

Quote:
"Communism killed more people than the Nazis did!"

Nope. Hitler killed about 11m. Communism killed slightly more than 1m.

Source

smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 03:53 PM

Ya'll aint countin' Stalin's regime then...5-7 million. Mostly starved as he tried to implement communism in the early 30s.

When you get right down to the nuts and bolts of it, Donald Trump isn't a "totalitarian". He isn't really anything. An overbearing assh*le more than anything else. A bull in a china shop. He didn't become a leader by leading and has no clue how to go about it. He didn't get rich by earning money and has no idea how the economy works. He's a small minded vindictive prick and a bully.

Though Hitler's regime may be unequaled in it's sheer brutality,
Trump's regime is certainly unequaled in it's sheer incompetence.
But he'll be gone in 2020 and dead within a few years, he'll leave no legacy except that of a bankrupted nation.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Quote:
"Communism killed more people than the Nazis did!"

Nope. Hitler killed about 11m. Communism killed slightly more than 1m.

Source

smile

Chairman Mao is responsible for the death of anywhere from 20 to 45 million people. If ignorance is bliss, pdx rick you must be living a blissful life.
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/02/05/who-killed-more-hitler-stalin-or-mao/
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Quote:
"Communism killed more people than the Nazis did!"

Nope. Hitler killed about 11m. Communism killed slightly more than 1m.

Source

smile

Chairman Mao is responsible for the death of anywhere from 20 to 45 million people. If ignorance is bliss, pdx rick you must be living a blissful life.
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/02/05/who-killed-more-hitler-stalin-or-mao/


I can't think of anything more blissfully perverse than running around saying

"Being a Nazi might be bad but at least it's not as bad as being a Commie!"
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 08:44 PM

I think a lot of Mao's deaths were actually unintentional. For example, he saw some birds eating crops and started a campaign to kill all the birds. People slaughtered them en masse and the insect pest problem exploded. Millions died from the famine.

Unintentionally killing people because of unforeseen consequences is a bit different from loading them in box cars and sending them to death camps.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 09:04 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Unintentionally killing people because of unforeseen consequences is a bit different from loading them in box cars and sending them to death camps.

Nuance is not the forte of an American Conservative. coffee
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Quote:
"Communism killed more people than the Nazis did!"

Nope. Hitler killed about 11m. Communism killed slightly more than 1m.

Source

smile

Chairman Mao is responsible for the death of anywhere from 20 to 45 million people. If ignorance is bliss, pdx rick you must be living a blissful life.
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/02/05/who-killed-more-hitler-stalin-or-mao/


I can't think of anything more blissfully perverse than running around saying

"Being a Nazi might be bad but at least it's not as bad as being a Commie!"


The fact remains that Communist regimes have killed more people than the Nazis did. Therefore, being a Communist is worse than being a Nazi. If people will not admit that the Communists were worse than the Nazis than Communism will still be an acceptable ideology. Both are evil. To ignore the fact that the Communists killed more people than the Nazis did is to lessen their crimes against humanity. The only way to stop any totalitarian regime is to realize that they are all evil!
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 10:14 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think a lot of Mao's deaths were actually unintentional. For example, he saw some birds eating crops and started a campaign to kill all the birds. People slaughtered them en masse and the insect pest problem exploded. Millions died from the famine.

Unintentionally killing people because of unforeseen consequences is a bit different from loading them in box cars and sending them to death camps.

Whether the murders committed by Communists under Chairman Mao were intentional or not does not matter to those who died. They died because of what an evil totalitarian regime did. But then fools who dither about nuance apparently think that because the murders were unintentional that the murderers are not responsible for them. Dead is dead, whether or not the deaths were intentional.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 10:16 PM

Quote:
The only way to stop any totalitarian regime is to realize that they are all evil!


Works like a champ until it's your own party and your own dictator running the regime...then you just get on board like a good little soldier and everyone else is evil.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 10:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The only way to stop any totalitarian regime is to realize that they are all evil!


Works like a champ until it's your own party and your own dictator running the regime...then you just get on board like a good little soldier and everyone else is evil.

What a great job of taking my part of my comment out of context in an attempt to change what I said! The idea that our current administration is a totalitarian regime is ludicrous.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 10:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Whether the murders committed by Communists under Chairman Mao were intentional or not does not matter to those who died.

Shouldn't the accuracy of how the people died count for something? Hmm
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

The fact remains that Communist regimes have killed more people than the Nazis did. Therefore, being a Communist is worse than being a Nazi. If people will not admit that the Communists were worse than the Nazis than Communism will still be an acceptable ideology. Both are evil. To ignore the fact that the Communists killed more people than the Nazis did is to lessen their crimes against humanity. The only way to stop any totalitarian regime is to realize that they are all evil!


No, because there isn't chance in Hell of America turning Communist.
In the 1930's capitalism had largely FAILED a majority of working Americans and membership in both socialist and communist groups zoomed upward, and yet somehow we managed to still cling to the hope that capitalism and democracy would save the day, and we elected a capitalist Democrat to help try to do just that.

We didn't elect a socialist or a communist, we elected a Democratic capitalist.

Therefore, your comment about how "Communism will still be an acceptable ideology" is absolute hysteria.




IT NEVER WAS, because if it was, we'd have hoisted the Hammer and Sickle a long time ago and kids my age who were then in school would have learned how to sing The Internationale.

The United States will never turn communist or socialist.
The big chance of that ever happening came and went eighty or ninety years ago.

Your thinking borders on the edge of Joseph McCarthy, or so it seems.
You're emptying crypto-commies out of the wastebasket, checking under the bed and seeing red flames in the toilet.


Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 11:24 PM

Quote:
No, because there isn't chance in Hell of America turning Communist.
In the 1930's capitalism had largely FAILED a majority of working Americans and membership in both socialist and communist groups zoomed upward, and yet somehow we managed to still cling to the hope that capitalism and democracy would save the day, and we elected a capitalist Democrat to help try to do just that.

We didn't elect a socialist or a communist, we elected a Democratic capitalist.

Therefore, your comment about how "Communism will still be an acceptable ideology" is absolute hysteria.

FDR was a capitalist? No, he was not! If you were to read the books I suggested you would learn that he wasn't. A capitalist President doesn't issue a decree making it illegal for people to own something. FDR issued a decree that banned the private ownership of gold. Since gold was the primary form of money at the time confiscating people's money is not what a capitalist would do!

Quote:
IT NEVER WAS, because if it was, we'd have hoisted the Hammer and Sickle a long time ago and kids my age who were then in school would have learned how to sing The Internationale.

The United States will never turn communist or socialist.
The big chance of that ever happening came and went eighty or ninety years ago.

Your thinking borders on the edge of Joseph McCarthy, or so it seems.
You're emptying crypto-commies out of the wastebasket, checking under the bed and seeing red flames in the toilet.

Apparently you have not heard of the Red Scare of the Wilson administration. The Wilson administration put hundreds of people in jail. Sen. McCarthy started his political career as Wilsonian Progressive.
http://www.ushistory.org/us/47a.asp

If Communism/Socialism isn't an acceptable idea why is there a 17 page thread here on the CHBRR on Democratic Socialism? Why is every Democrat seeking their party's Presidential nomination promising to make a lot of things free? Why is an avowed Socialist, Bernie Sanders, a credible candidate for the Presidency?
Because Communism/Socialism is an accepted ideology!
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 11:41 PM

Gold was only confiscated from people who refused to obey the law that they had to SELL their gold to the government. Almost everybody did, and they were compensated. The cases of confiscation were much like criminal cases now that use asset forfeiture for stock market manipulation or drug dealing.

FDR was far from a socialist. In fact, almost every economist says he saved capitalism. The simple fact is that the most stable and responsive form of government is a mix of capitalism, government regulations, and socialist programs. Pure capitalism and pure socialism are usually horrible for most of the people living under them.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 11:45 PM

Quote:
Communism/Socialism is an accepted ideology!

Indeed it is but is simply not what social democrats envision.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/11/19 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Pure capitalism and pure socialism are usually horrible for most of the people living under them.


Purity destroys many things.
Purity is fundamentalism, purity leads to purity oaths and an ever narrowing circle of sycophancy. Purity in art and music leads to stagnation. Purity in genetics leads to profound birth defects and severe mental retardation.
Nature seldom tolerates purity for a reason.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Gold was only confiscated from people who refused to obey the law that they had to SELL their gold to the government. Almost everybody did, and they were compensated. The cases of confiscation were much like criminal cases now that use asset forfeiture for stock market manipulation or drug dealing.

Presidential Proclamation 2039 says you are wrong. http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/_resources/images/eo/eo0040.pdf
https://www.fff.org/2017/07/06/fdr-destroyed-truth-gold/

Quote:
FDR was far from a socialist. In fact, almost every economist says he saved capitalism. The simple fact is that the most stable and responsive form of government is a mix of capitalism, government regulations, and socialist programs. Pure capitalism and pure socialism are usually horrible for most of the people living under them.

FDR wasn't a Socialist? Thom Hartmann and Bernie Sanders, both of whom are Socialists, disagree with you. Only the economists who are fans of FDR believe he saved capitalism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEWUuWndao8
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 12:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Communism/Socialism is an accepted ideology!

Indeed it is but is simply not what social democrats envision.

And while I completely and strongly disagree with socialism I will defend with my life someone's right to be a socialist!
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 12:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
...Thom Hartmann and Bernie Sanders, both of whom are Socialists...

Democratic Socialists... smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 12:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Communism/Socialism is an accepted ideology!

Indeed it is but is simply not what social democrats envision.

And while I completely and strongly disagree with socialism I will defend with my life someone's right to be a socialist!

Best not call 911 when you need help then, and you can stop using the interstate highway system any time you want. smile

I'm sure you stopped relying on Social Security too. coffee
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Communism/Socialism is an accepted ideology!

Indeed it is but is simply not what social democrats envision.

And while I completely and strongly disagree with socialism I will defend with my life someone's right to be a socialist!

Best not call 911 when you need help then, and you can stop using the interstate highway system any time you want. smile

I'm sure you stopped relying on Social Security too. coffee

Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 12:50 AM

And do you, Hatrack, understand what a social democracy is?
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 12:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.

Pot, meet kettle. smile
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 01:00 AM

Right out of Wikipedia:

Quote:
Consensus historians of the 1950s, such as Richard Hofstadter, according to Lary May:

[B]elieved that the prosperity and apparent class harmony of the post-World War II era reflected a return to the true Americanism rooted in liberal capitalism and the pursuit of individual opportunity that had made fundamental conflicts over resources a thing of the past. They argued that the New Deal was a conservative movement that built a welfare state, guided by experts, that saved rather than transformed liberal capitalism.
Liberal historians argue that Roosevelt restored hope and self-respect to tens of millions of desperate people, built labor unions, upgraded the national infrastructure and saved capitalism in his first term when he could have destroyed it and easily nationalized the banks and the railroads. Historians generally agree that apart from building up labor unions, the New Deal did not substantially alter the distribution of power within American capitalism. "The New Deal brought about limited change in the nation's power structure". The New Deal preserved democracy in the United States in a historic period of uncertainty and crises when in many other countries democracy failed.


Leftists actually complained that FDR did not nationalize and seize the means of production when he had the chance.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 03:38 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.

Pot, meet kettle. smile

At one time I was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party. When I was I read and still do read Socialist literature. When was the last time you read any of Lenin's writings? How about Engels? Do you know who Charles Fournier is? Do you know what Marx's list of 10 things that will help turn a country socialist? Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 01:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.

Pot, meet kettle. smile

At one time I was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party. When I was I read and still do read Socialist literature. When was the last time you read any of Lenin's writings? How about Engels? Do you know who Charles Fournier is? Do you know what Marx's list of 10 things that will help turn a country socialist? Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you?


And why would I own a copy of The Communist Manifesto?
I don't own a Che Guevara tee shirt either.
Are you red-baiting me again? You do that a lot.

Will Rogers is famous for having said, "I am not a member of any organized political party, I am a Democrat."

My oldest brother was briefly a member of the SWP (1969-1971) and as I remember it, the total membership of the party in the United States never went beyond a few thousand people. When he went to Linda Jenness' first fundraiser for her SWP POTUS candidacy, the entire multitude of supporters fit into a residential back yard in Greenbelt, Maryland. I know because he dragged me along to the BBQ.
It was her only fundraiser on the entire East Coast.

That means that it's not much different than being a member of a local ham radio club in your area.
Current membership in the Democratic Socialists of America stands at 56,000 people.
Hell, for that matter, membership in the CPUSA was maybe a few hundred thousand at its peak.
My point is, being a member of a tiny party for a little while forty or fifty years ago does not make one an expert on left leaning politics.

And that tiny Socialist Workers Party, or the DSA for that matter, does not exert an omnipotent or universal influence on leftist thought.
Did you know that the DSA dissed Bernie Sanders back in 2015 when he announced his candidacy?
Basically, the reaction amounted to something along the lines of:

Quote:
"Yawn, what a sellout."


Quote:
"Not a real socialist."


Sorry Senator Hatrack but I hate to disappoint you when I reveal that I don't peruse a weekly copy of "The Militant" while drinking my morning coffee.

Although after three or four days of being stridently red-baited by you, I succumbed to temptation this morning and lo and behold, the lead story in The Militant this morning is about a bunch of Kentucky coal miners who were denied their pay by a bankrupt coal company, and they are now blocking the only rail artery in or out of their town.

Seems their union, the United Mine Workers of America, withered away thanks to anti-union pressure and now these workers have no recourse, despite retired UMWA brothers showing up from other parts of the country to offer support.

Quote:
“We had to step up. We were robbed. They didn’t use a gun, but they robbed us anyway,” Chris Lewis, one of the original six miners, told the Militant at the encampment Aug. 7. “We have to give a voice to coal miners. We aren’t asking for nothing we haven’t worked for,” he said.


Quote:
Several retired UMWA members visited the protest July 30. “We’re UMWA members,” Stanley Sturgill, 74, and a 41-year member of the union, told the Mountain Eagle. “Those guys aren’t. There’s no UMWA in Kentucky anymore, but we’re all brothers.”


Hmmm, maybe a little bit of "socialist" union power might have helped these hard working men.
President Trump promised he would help them but I guess that was just another line in his reality TV show script.

And as a Director of Photography and film editor, I have to tell you about an old industry saying:

There is NO REALITY in reality TV.

And there is absolutely no link with reality in your perception of me or anybody on the left that I have ever associated with.

Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
[quote=Senator Hatrack]Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.

Pot, meet kettle. smile

At one time I was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party. When I was I read and still do read Socialist literature. When was the last time you read any of Lenin's writings? How about Engels? Do you know who Charles Fournier is? Do you know what Marx's list of 10 things that will help turn a country socialist? Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you?


Quote:
And why would I own a copy of The Communist Manifesto?
I don't own a Che Guevara tee shirt either.
Are you red-baiting me again? You do that a lot.

Why should own a copy of The Communist Manifesto? Because you might learn something from it. You didn't know that the progressive income tax was a Marxist idea until I told it was. If you had a copy of the Communist Manifesto you would have known that. I don't a Che Guevara T-shirt either. The only "red baiting" that is being done is in your perception of my comments. So whenever I mention anything related to Communism in my comments to you; past, present, and future, I am not red baiting you!
Quote:
Will Rogers is famous for having said, "I am not a member of any organized political party, I am a Democrat."

Will Rogers was a very funny man who did a great job of making fun of politicians on both sides of the aisle.
Quote:
My oldest brother was briefly a member of the SWP (1969-1971) and as I remember it, the total membership of the party in the United States never went beyond a few thousand people. When he went to Linda Jenness' first fundraiser for her SWP POTUS candidacy, the entire multitude of supporters fit into a residential back yard in Greenbelt, Maryland. I know because he dragged me along to the BBQ.
It was her only fundraiser on the entire East Coast.

That means that it's not much different than being a member of a local ham radio club in your area.
Current membership in the Democratic Socialists of America stands at 56,000 people.
Hell, for that matter, membership in the CPUSA was maybe a few hundred thousand at its peak.
My point is, being a member of a tiny party for a little while forty or fifty years ago does not make one an expert on left leaning politics.

When I was a member of the SWP there were about 1,500 members here in MN. So your memory of the size of the party is wrong. A friend of mine is a ham radio operator and he told me there are about 300 in the Twin Cities. They are a larger organization than you guessed it to be. While the DSA may have only 56,000 members nationwide they do have a member who is in the House of Representatives, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. That will help increase the DSA's membership.

Quote:
And that tiny Socialist Workers Party, or the DSA for that matter, does not exert an omnipotent or universal influence on leftist thought.

No, but with Rep. Ocasio-Cortez in Congress the influence of the DSA will grow.
Quote:
Did you know that the DSA dissed Bernie Sanders back in 2015 when he announced his candidacy?
Basically, the reaction amounted to something along the lines of:

Quote:
"Yawn, what a sellout."


Quote:
"Not a real socialist."


Quote:
Sorry Senator Hatrack but I hate to disappoint you when I reveal that I don't peruse a weekly copy of "The Militant" while drinking my morning coffee.

Although after three or four days of being stridently red-baited by you, I succumbed to temptation this morning and lo and behold, the lead story in The Militant this morning is about a bunch of Kentucky coal miners who were denied their pay by a bankrupt coal company, and they are now blocking the only rail artery in or out of their town.

Seems their union, the United Mine Workers of America, withered away thanks to anti-union pressure and now these workers have no recourse, despite retired UMWA brothers showing up from other parts of the country to offer support.

“We had to step up. We were robbed. They didn’t use a gun, but they robbed us anyway,” Chris Lewis, one of the original six miners, told the Militant at the encampment Aug. 7. “We have to give a voice to coal miners. We aren’t asking for nothing we haven’t worked for,” he said.


Quote:
Several retired UMWA members visited the protest July 30. “We’re UMWA members,” Stanley Sturgill, 74, and a 41-year member of the union, told the Mountain Eagle. “Those guys aren’t. There’s no UMWA in Kentucky anymore, but we’re all brothers.”


Hmmm, maybe a little bit of "socialist" union power might have helped these hard working men.
President Trump promised he would help them but I guess that was just another line in his reality TV show script.

And as a Director of Photography and film editor, I have to tell you about an old industry saying:

There is NO REALITY in reality TV.

And there is absolutely no link with reality in your perception of me or anybody on the left that I have ever associated with.

It has been over 40 years since I read The Militant. I had forgotten the name of SWP newspaper and how often it was published. That you knew it was a weekly and where to get a copy of it is an indication of your leftist leanings. As a conservative I don't know where to find a copy of The Militant. And NO that last comment is not red baiting!

As the men who are or were in the United Mine Workers of America maybe their union might be little stronger if the platform of the DNC didn't have plank in it calling for the abolition of coal mining. I do believe that the Democrat's 2016 Presidential candidate said that if elected she would shut down all of the coal mines in the country. Not that any President has the power or authority to do that.
This comment does not contain any red baiting!
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 08:34 PM

It's a pleasure to have you back, Senator Hatrack.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 09:37 PM

Quote:
I do believe that the Democrat's 2016 Presidential candidate said that if elected she would shut down all of the coal mines in the country.


I don't think she said, as President, she would shut down the coal mines. Here are her comments in context:

Quote:
Look, we have serious economic problems in many parts of our country. And Roland is absolutely right. Instead of dividing people the way Donald Trump does, let's reunite around policies that will bring jobs and opportunities to all these underserved poor communities.

So for example, I'm the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right?

And we're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.

Now we've got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don't want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.


She was talking about economic forces (like frakking) putting coal miners out of business. Which is in agreement with your statement about her lack of power to do anything directly. It was happening then and it's happened even more now. Her opponents seized on that comment to claim she would shut down coal mines. More of the usual Republican anti-Clinton smear. It never ends.

What she was really talking about was retraining those folks at something else, instead of just forgetting them and leaving them to shuffle around mostly not working as coal jobs dwindle. Renewable energy is a field that is growing as rapidly as coal is going away. Trump has done the miners a huge disservice by leading them to believe he would somehow "make coal great again" and bring back the jobs. So they don't get that retraining, and they don't get jobs.

Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 10:43 PM

Thanks, Greger.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/12/19 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

Why should own a copy of The Communist Manifesto? Because you might learn something from it. You didn't know that the progressive income tax was a Marxist idea until I told it was. If you had a copy of the Communist Manifesto you would have known that. I don't a Che Guevara T-shirt either. The only "red baiting" that is being done is in your perception of my comments. So whenever I mention anything related to Communism in my comments to you; past, present, and future, I am not red baiting you!


In the United States, the first progressive income tax was established by the Revenue Act of 1862. The act was signed into law by President Abraham Lincoln, and replaced the Revenue Act of 1861, which had imposed a flat income tax of 3% on incomes above $800.
I didn't say that I'd never SEEN a copy of the Communist Manifesto,
I said that I don't own a copy of it.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

When I was a member of the SWP there were about 1,500 members here in MN. So your memory of the size of the party is wrong. A friend of mine is a ham radio operator and he told me there are about 300 in the Twin Cities.


Three hundred what? Three hundred hams or three hundred ham clubs?

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

They are a larger organization than you guessed it to be. While the DSA may have only 56,000 members nationwide they do have a member who is in the House of Representatives, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. That will help increase the DSA's membership.


All the AOC's in the world still won't shift our economic system to socialism. Here's what might:
FAILURE of CAPITALISM to serve those who use, create and spend capital.


Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

It has been over 40 years since I read The Militant. I had forgotten the name of SWP newspaper and how often it was published. That you knew it was a weekly and where to get a copy of it is an indication of your leftist leanings. As a conservative I don't know where to find a copy of The Militant. And NO that last comment is not red baiting!


That I knew it was a weekly and where to get it is a function of Wikipedia. ROTFMOL tinfoilhat

Seriously, you don't realize that The Militant is online and you don't realize that typing "Socialist Workers Party" into Wiki gets you a capsule description of the party and their organ?

Did you know that you can look stuff up on this thing?



Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

As the men who are or were in the United Mine Workers of America maybe their union might be little stronger if the platform of the DNC didn't have plank in it calling for the abolition of coal mining. I do believe that the Democrat's 2016 Presidential candidate said that if elected she would shut down all of the coal mines in the country. Not that any President has the power or authority to do that.


Power and authority? They're not genies.
The union was destroyed partly by anti-union pressure and mostly by the fact that demand for coal is and has been on a downward spiral since the 1960's.
There are fewer coal miners in this country than Arby's employees.
Believe it or not the vast majority of them are now in Wyoming, not Kentucky.
(See: IRON RANGE)

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

This comment does not contain any red baiting!


No...stating that my ability to track down a copy of "The Militant" is an indicator of my commie-ness contains red-baiting.

But you know what? You go ahead and keep on red-baiting me.
Others here think I'm an illiberal enabler of Conserv-A-Dems, which is essentially like saying I'm Joe Lieberman.

In the end it all boils down to my sig line, from an old Leon Russell song "Magic Mirror".
Maybe it all balances out in the end.

"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 03:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

[quote=Senator Hatrack]
This comment does not contain any red baiting!

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

That was just one friend giving a friend a hard time. I apologize for it.


Absolutely no apologies necessary, just stop telling me how I think.
Ask me.
Instead of reciting boring crap from Marx and Lenin, ASK ME what I think about the issues.

We have FIRE regulations for a reason, yes?
Fire can be a useful tool, because it can warm your home, forge your steel and iron, cook your food, etc.
It can also burn down entire towns if left unchecked.

Capitalism is a lot like FIRE. Left unregulated and unchecked, it can become predatory and very damaging, and it can unearth some pretty awful unintended consequences.

And yet when properly harnessed, capitalism can lift entire generations out of poverty, stimulate innovation and launch entirely new industries.

Capitalism has demonstrated the capability to serve as a useful and rewarding tool to serve the middle class if it operates under the right kind of regulation.

OMG I just realized I hit EDIT on YOUR POST instead of MINE.

Major screwup on MY part, it was a huge mistake.
I will attempt to recover your original post.

Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 03:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
At one time I was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party. When I was I read and still do read Socialist literature. When was the last time you read any of Lenin's writings?

Never. smile


Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
How about Engels?

Who dat? Hmm


Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Do you know who Charles Fournier is?

Nope. laugh

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Do you know what Marx's list of 10 things that will help turn a country socialist?

You think everyone is as fascinated with socialism as you are. Hmm


Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you?

Socialism is in the Communist Manifesto? That's some real bullshte artistry, right there. Congratulations. smile
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:41 AM

What I don't think Senator Hatrack understands is, I don't spend a lot of time delving through the works of any of those guys because I don't view any of them as relevant.

Sure, I'll sprinkle a dash of quasi-socialist tweaks on my capitalism the way someone sprinkles hot sauce on scrambled eggs.
It doesn't alter the fact that I prefer capitalism.

The capitalism I happen to prefer isn't pure, but it's pretty close.

Hatrack's view of people on the left is polluted by his brief dalliance with hardcore socialist party members who DID spend lots of time poring through Marx, Lenin, Engels...

People like that are pedantic, tedious and tiresome.
I mentioned Will Rogers.
His equivalent today might be Bill Maher.

I get more guidance from Bill Maher than I will ever get from Marx and Lenin, even when he annoys the crap out of me.
I listen to Elon Musk, not Charles Fournier.

Senator Hatrack is still convinced that anyone who isn't a conservative is plotting a takeover.

Green New Deal, eh?
Senator, do you even understand how a bill becomes law?
The GND was a PROPOSAL, it was never a bill and it can't be a bill, because it isn't written as a bill.

It was also probably hurriedly and sloppily typed on some laptop at AOC's kitchen table because as a rookie she did not have the funds, resources or access to the many powerful think tanks who crank out gavel ready legislation that is given to lobbyists to put in the hands of lawmakers, who seldom if ever read the actual text.

The GND was meant to start a conversation, not send paranoid people running around screaming with their hair on fire, but then...that's what paranoid people do.

Maybe someday someone or a group of people will pick up on one or two items in the GND and float a trial balloon in the form of a bill and like all bills, it will be made into sausage, which means it will be debated, redacted, edited, modified, compromised and reconciled with the Senate.

And then it has to get past the White House Oval Office.
If you see a foaming Red Tide of Socialism, maybe try adjusting your glasses.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
What I don't think Senator Hatrack understands is, I don't spend a lot of time delving through the works of any of those guys because I don't view any of them as relevant.

Sure, I'll sprinkle a dash of quasi-socialist tweaks on my capitalism the way someone sprinkles hot sauce on scrambled eggs.
It doesn't alter the fact that I prefer capitalism.

The capitalism I happen to prefer isn't pure, but it's pretty close.

Hatrack's view of people on the left is polluted by his brief dalliance with hardcore socialist party members who DID spend lots of time poring through Marx, Lenin, Engels...

People like that are pedantic, tedious and tiresome.
I mentioned Will Rogers.
His equivalent today might be Bill Maher.

I get more guidance from Bill Maher than I will ever get from Marx and Lenin, even when he annoys the crap out of me.
I listen to Elon Musk, not Charles Fournier.

Senator Hatrack is still convinced that anyone who isn't a conservative is plotting a takeover.

Green New Deal, eh?
Senator, do you even understand how a bill becomes law?
The GND was a PROPOSAL, it was never a bill and it can't be a bill, because it isn't written as a bill.

It was also probably hurriedly and sloppily typed on some laptop at AOC's kitchen table because as a rookie she did not have the funds, resources or access to the many powerful think tanks who crank out gavel ready legislation that is given to lobbyists to put in the hands of lawmakers, who seldom if ever read the actual text.

The GND was meant to start a conversation, not send paranoid people running around screaming with their hair on fire, but then...that's what paranoid people do.

Maybe someday someone or a group of people will pick up on one or two items in the GND and float a trial balloon in the form of a bill and like all bills, it will be made into sausage, which means it will be debated, redacted, edited, modified, compromised and reconciled with the Senate.

And then it has to get past the White House Oval Office.
If you see a foaming Red Tide of Socialism, maybe try adjusting your glasses.

Bow
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Senator Hatrack is still convinced that anyone who isn't a conservative is plotting a takeover.


Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds
Pychology Today
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:49 AM

Absolutely no apologies necessary, just stop telling me how I think.
Ask me.
Instead of reciting boring crap from Marx and Lenin, ASK ME what I think about the issues.

We have FIRE regulations for a reason, yes?
Fire can be a useful tool, because it can warm your home, forge your steel and iron, cook your food, etc.
It can also burn down entire towns if left unchecked.

Capitalism is a lot like FIRE. Left unregulated and unchecked, it can become predatory and very damaging, and it can unearth some pretty awful unintended consequences.

And yet when properly harnessed, capitalism can lift entire generations out of poverty, stimulate innovation and launch entirely new industries.

Capitalism has demonstrated the capability to serve as a useful and rewarding tool to serve the middle class if it operates under the right kind of regulation.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:53 AM

My turn to apologize...
Senator, I hit the EDIT button on YOUR post by MISTAKE.
Please forgive me. I will try my best to recover what you wrote.

This is maybe the second or third time in two years that I've committed a blunder like this and I am truly sorry.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 01:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you?

Socialism is in the Communist Manifesto? That's some real bullshte artistry, right there. Congratulations. smile [/quote]
No, it is not "some real bullshte artistry." In The Communist Manifesto Marx lists 10 ways to turn a capitalist country into a socialist country. Then after being a socialist country it would become a communist country. Had you read The Communist Manifesto you might have learned that. You don't need to own a copy of it to read it. You can get one at your local library.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 01:59 PM

The reason I mentioned the Green New Deal and nationalized health care is to point one very important fact about leftists. They are very patient. Nationalized health care was first proposed in 1904. It became a reality in 2010. It took leftists 106 years but they finally got nationalized health care. They believe that eventually communism will prevail. As with the implementation of nationalized health care if it takes 100 years to achieve their goal they don't care. They know it isn't going to happen this year but are convinced that eventually they will succeed.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 02:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!
I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Trump not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague (and he's a famous germaphobe. He says so). He fires any dissenters. What other aspects of totalitarian rule are missing?
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Absolutely no apologies necessary, just stop telling me how I think.
Ask me.
Instead of reciting boring crap from Marx and Lenin, ASK ME what I think about the issues.

We have FIRE regulations for a reason, yes?
Fire can be a useful tool, because it can warm your home, forge your steel and iron, cook your food, etc.
It can also burn down entire towns if left unchecked.

Capitalism is a lot like FIRE. Left unregulated and unchecked, it can become predatory and very damaging, and it can unearth some pretty awful unintended consequences.

And yet when properly harnessed, capitalism can lift entire generations out of poverty, stimulate innovation and launch entirely new industries.

Capitalism has demonstrated the capability to serve as a useful and rewarding tool to serve the middle class if it operates under the right kind of regulation.

If capitalism is over regulated it's effectiveness is diminished, if not destroyed. It is important to know about the ideas of Marx and Engels. Leftists are very patient in working to achieve their goals. That is why they will slip in the ideas of Marx and Engels, but rewritten to sound innocuous, to slowly achieve their goal of a communist world.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 02:18 PM

I think, my friend, that you are missing an extremely and definitional point. It isn't whether a regime is communist or fascist - the point is that both are totalitarian. So, you are actually reenforcing the point that totalitarianism is bad. I completely agree. Whatever label you want to put on it: communist, fascist, republican... smile
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 02:32 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!
I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Trump not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague (and he's a famous germaphobe. He says so). He fires any dissenters. What other aspects of totalitarian rule are missing?

With one small change what you wrote describes our Previous President.
"I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Obama not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague..."
"I have a pen and a phone." Pres. Obama
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-i-will-use-my-pen-and-phone-to-take-on-congress/
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you? ....
You don't need to own a copy of it to read it. You can get one at your local library.
I have both read and have a copy of the Communist Manifesto (Political Science is kinda my jam.) It was, and is, a boring read. There are many things that Marx got right, but his description of how a country becomes "communist" was not one of them. I have often said that Marx himself was a lousy Marxist. Philosophically, Das Kapital was an explanation of how economies work and how workers get exploited. Rather than watch that process unfold, he sought to make the changes himself. Didn't work.

In the real world, totalitarianism is totalitarianism, whatever label you want to put on it. And every developed country in the world - especially the capitalist ones - have elements of "socialism" in their operation. It is what makes them humane. In my view, running around shouting "Socialism" all the time is just agitprop from the Ministry of Silly Walks. Even "Democratic Socialists" aren't "Socialists" in the classic definition of the term. (Indeed, I find their self-definition silly.)

So, being serious, what we are really talking about is an Eco-Social Market Economy. Once we get past putting silly labels on things we can get down to actually doing good things for the country. To some, however, that is counterproductive. They want to avoid doing good things at all costs. Even embarrassing themselves by putting labels on everything.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 02:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!
I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Trump not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague (and he's a famous germaphobe. He says so). He fires any dissenters. What other aspects of totalitarian rule are missing?

With one small change what you wrote describes our Previous President.
"I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Obama not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague..."
"I have a pen and a phone." Pres. Obama
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-i-will-use-my-pen-and-phone-to-take-on-congress/
Now you are being just being silly and obtuse. I won't play that game. Sorry.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 03:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The reason I mentioned the Green New Deal and nationalized health care is to point one very important fact about leftists. They are very patient. Nationalized health care was first proposed in 1904. It became a reality in 2010. It took leftists 106 years but they finally got nationalized health care. They believe that eventually communism will prevail. As with the implementation of nationalized health care if it takes 100 years to achieve their goal they don't care. They know it isn't going to happen this year but are convinced that eventually they will succeed.
If you think the ACA is "nationalized healthcare" you are either incredibly uninformed or self-delusional. We do have "Nationalized Healthcare" in this country - it is run by the Veteran's administration and the Department of Defense. None of Medicare, Medicaid or the ACA (or any of the other government-sponsored insurance programs) are "nationalized healthcare". I kinda wish we did have it. (Okay, technically, I do. But that is a different issue.)

If you wanna get all "definitional" in here, "Socialism" is "government control of the means of production." No one has seized the hospital system in the United States. Socialism is not a social welfare program, or a progressive tax system. Period. Full Stop. (No really, just stop!) That is what social democracy (not democratic socialism) is all about - ensuring that the government is providing for the "general welfare" - you know that bit in the US Constitution?! Maybe you have read and potentially own a copy? People get confused, and outraged, because it has the same root, "social", but it is definitively, categorically, and in all other ways, not the same thing.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The reason I mentioned the Green New Deal and nationalized health care is to point one very important fact about leftists. They are very patient. Nationalized health care was first proposed in 1904. It became a reality in 2010. It took leftists 106 years but they finally got nationalized health care. They believe that eventually communism will prevail. As with the implementation of nationalized health care if it takes 100 years to achieve their goal they don't care. They know it isn't going to happen this year but are convinced that eventually they will succeed.
If you think the ACA is "nationalized healthcare" you are either incredibly uninformed or self-delusional. We do have "Nationalized Healthcare" in this country - it is run by the Veteran's administration and the Department of Defense. None of Medicare, Medicaid or the ACA (or any of the other government-sponsored insurance programs) are "nationalized healthcare". I kinda wish we did have it. (Okay, technically, I do. But that is a different issue.)

If you wanna get all "definitional" in here, "Socialism" is "government control of the means of production." No one has seized the hospital system in the United States. Socialism is not a social welfare program, or a progressive tax system. Period. Full Stop. (No really, just stop!) That is what social democracy (not democratic socialism) is all about - ensuring that the government is providing for the "general welfare" - you know that bit in the US Constitution?! Maybe you have read and potentially own a copy? People get confused, and outraged, because it has the same root, "social", but it is definitively, categorically, and in all other ways, not the same thing.

This is what the author of the general Welfare clause meant by it.
"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America." James Madison
The general Welfare clause DOES NOT give our government carte blanche to do whatever it wants to do!
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 03:36 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!
I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Trump not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague (and he's a famous germaphobe. He says so). He fires any dissenters. What other aspects of totalitarian rule are missing?


With one small change what you wrote describes our Previous President.
"I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Obama not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague..."
"I have a pen and a phone." Pres. Obama
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-i-will-use-my-pen-and-phone-to-take-on-congress/
Now you are being just being silly and obtuse. I won't play that game. Sorry.

No I am not being silly and obtuse! Nor am I playing a game.Pres. Obama went around Congress whenever he felt like it.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

No I am not being silly and obtuse! Nor am I playing a game.Pres. Obama went around Congress whenever he felt like it.


More like he did it whenever Mitch McConnell blocked House legislation from Democrats (which was almost all the time) and yes, Trump is doing much the same thing, which is why all of Trump's executive orders will be rolled back in much the same way in 2021.

Get your Kleenex out, because Mitch is going down in 2020 just like his boss.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:41 PM

Quote:
Pres. Obama went around Congress whenever he felt like it.

What president hasn't? A president wields an enormous amount of power and when he see's something that needs to be done he often has the authority to make it happen. Donald Trump has claimed new powers and established an entire new set of rules for what it means to be president. Republicans now support massive deficits and soaring national debt. Both of these things will make life easier for Elizabeth Warren when she takes over in January of 2021.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[quote=Senator Hatrack]
No I am not being silly and obtuse! Nor am I playing a game.Pres. Obama went around Congress whenever he felt like it.


Quote:
More like he did it whenever Mitch McConnell blocked House legislation from Democrats (which was almost all the time) and yes, Trump is doing much the same thing, which is why all of Trump's executive orders will be rolled back in much the same way in 2021.

Get your Kleenex out, because Mitch is going down in 2020 just like his boss.

I believe you are wrong about of those two elections. Sen. McConnell won't lose because incumbents in Congress have a 95% reelection rate. Especially when the member of Congress has the seniority and power that McConnell does. Pres. Trump will be reelected because of what all of the Democrats seeking to be their party's Presidential nominee are competing amongst themselves to see who is promising the most "free stuff" from our government.
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 04:58 PM

Quote:
Sen. McConnell won't lose

Correct. But he will become the Minority Leader. grin
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 05:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Sen. McConnell won't lose

Correct. But he will become the Minority Leader. grin


Ummmm...don't be so sure.

He recently was unable to speak at a county fair event, and it wasn't just protesters either. I believe I posted a video link to it just the other day. In fact, he's BEEN getting boos from his own constituents since 2016.

Mitch is going down, maybe it will be a bloody fight but I don't think the odds are in his favor.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[quote=Greger]
Quote:
Sen. McConnell won't lose

Correct. But he will become the Minority Leader. grin


Quote:
Ummmm...don't be so sure.

He recently was unable to speak at a county fair event, and it wasn't just protesters either. I believe I posted a video link to it just the other day. In fact, he's BEEN getting boos from his own constituents since 2016.

Mitch is going down, maybe it will be a bloody fight but I don't think the odds are in his favor.

Sen. Feinstein barely got endorsed by the Democrats last year yet she still got reelected. Unfortunately the of incumbency is too strong. I would like to any and all members of Congress who have been in office more than 20 years be forced to retire.
Posted by: jgw

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 06:08 PM

Amazing!
I started this one noting some similarities between Trump and Hitler when Hitler took over. That was basically ignored in favor of who was better. As far as I can tell nothing has changed. Trump remains the favorite to win by many, and continues to note he has no plans to leave.

I guess I should also mention that Mussolini, in Italy, is remembered fondly by his nation as a great leader until he hooked up with Hitler and his estate remains in family hands and the family is also considered positively. These are not, incidentally, the only strange times. Germany lost, basically, because he would not listen to his generals and turned on Stalin (his ally) too soon. The American revolution was, arguably, won by France not the Americans. France also lost more troops than the Americans too.

Just thought I would throw that in...........
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 06:54 PM

If Kentucky goes Blue in 2020 then there is some small chance that McConnell might lose. Kentucky went 63% Trump 33% Clinton in 2016 so I don't really see it happening.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 09:59 PM

Quote:
I would like to any and all members of Congress who have been in office more than 20 years be forced to retire.

Why does length of service have anything to do with anything?

From day one these folks should have been impeached ... Rep's Gohmert, Steve King, Gaetz, Johnson, and more. They are delusional and say stupid stuff. They should have stayed at home and tended their yards.

(The only reason there are no Democrats on the list is I can't think of any who are delusional and have said stupid stuff).
Posted by: Greger

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/13/19 11:55 PM

Quote:
(The only reason there are no Democrats on the list is I can't think of any who are delusional and have said stupid stuff).


Joe Biden is a good start.
Posted by: Mellowicious

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 02:34 AM

I love Joe; I think he's a true servant of the public, but I never trusted him to watch his words, and as a result I never wanted him to be president.

But I'm fairly sure even Joe wouldn't be any worse...
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 02:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Mellowicious
I love Joe; I think he's a true servant of the public, but I never trusted him to watch his words, and as a result I never wanted him to be president.

But I'm fairly sure even Joe wouldn't be any worse...


For me, Joe is a survivable event and all the more need for House and Senate Dems to be both in majority and further left than Joe is.
Keep up the pressure.

I'll vote for him under protest but I am supporting Warren at least for now.
Posted by: rporter314

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 08:06 PM

I don't think VP Biden is delusional. However, he does have a penchant to trip over his own tongue.

Can anyone think of a delusional Democrat? 911 conspiracist? I dunno know. Seems like right wing folks are prone to delusions and paranoia. Someone point out the error in my statement.
Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Amazing!
I started this one noting some similarities between Trump and Hitler when Hitler took over. That was basically ignored in favor of who was better. As far as I can tell nothing has changed. Trump remains the favorite to win by many, and continues to note he has no plans to leave.

I guess I should also mention that Mussolini, in Italy, is remembered fondly by his nation as a great leader until he hooked up with Hitler and his estate remains in family hands and the family is also considered positively. These are not, incidentally, the only strange times. Germany lost, basically, because he would not listen to his generals and turned on Stalin (his ally) too soon. The American revolution was, arguably, won by France not the Americans. France also lost more troops than the Americans too.

Just thought I would throw that in...........

The idea that whoever is our current President will not leave when their term in office is over is a conspiracy theory. Wacko Republicans said that about Pres. Obama and wacko Democrats are saying that about Pres. Trump.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 10:36 PM

Originally Posted By: rporter314
I don't think VP Biden is delusional. However, he does have a penchant to trip over his own tongue.

Can anyone think of a delusional Democrat? 911 conspiracist? I dunno know. Seems like right wing folks are prone to delusions and paranoia. Someone point out the error in my statement.


I don't dislike Joe Biden. I don't even dislike Hillz.
I imagine Joe is probably a nice guy. Whether or not Hillary is nice doesn't matter to me because she's an excellent policy wonk.
But she has always been a terrible candidate.

But I don't dislike them, I just think that we need to move the needle a little further left than either of them are willing to consider.
Mind you, not to the extreme edge, just enough to put us about where we were back before Ronald Reagan began dissecting the New Deal would be fine.

To people like Joe, maybe the New Deal is considered too extreme.
It might not be extreme enough. Maybe we could do well with passing FDR's Second Bill of Rights...you know, Part II which never got off the ground?

So it's not that I hate Joe, it's that I don't think we should go back to the 1980's and 1990's and Joe represents that in spades.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 10:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: jgw
Amazing!
I started this one noting some similarities between Trump and Hitler when Hitler took over. That was basically ignored in favor of who was better. As far as I can tell nothing has changed. Trump remains the favorite to win by many, and continues to note he has no plans to leave.

I guess I should also mention that Mussolini, in Italy, is remembered fondly by his nation as a great leader until he hooked up with Hitler and his estate remains in family hands and the family is also considered positively. These are not, incidentally, the only strange times. Germany lost, basically, because he would not listen to his generals and turned on Stalin (his ally) too soon. The American revolution was, arguably, won by France not the Americans. France also lost more troops than the Americans too.

Just thought I would throw that in...........

The idea that whoever is our current President will not leave when their term in office is over is a conspiracy theory. Wacko Republicans said that about Pres. Obama and wacko Democrats are saying that about Pres. Trump.


One wacko Republican keeps repeating the idea that he should be President for Life.
Yes I know, you guys insist he's joking.
I know that you think he's just making a joke.

I'd like to think so but the God's honest truth is, Donald Trump NEVER actually is joking. He doesn't joke unless it's at someone's expense.

As they say, "The cruelty is the point."

Posted by: Senator Hatrack

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 11:37 PM

All of the Trump supporters I know from across the country, thanks to the internet, know that Trump will walk away from the Oval Office, as soon as his term in office is over. While you might believe it Donald J. Trump can and does tell jokes.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 11:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

If capitalism is over regulated it's effectiveness is diminished, if not destroyed. It is important to know about the ideas of Marx and Engels. Leftists are very patient in working to achieve their goals. That is why they will slip in the ideas of Marx and Engels, but rewritten to sound innocuous, to slowly achieve their goal of a communist world.


Did I ever say anything about "over-regulating" capitalism?
Do you think payday loan centers are the lifeblood of a healthy capitalist economy? Should they be regulated at all or should they be given complete carte blanche?

Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said, and by the way, you are red-baiting me again. You're red baiting me by insisting that I am "patiently slipping in the ideas of Marx and Engels, but rewritten to sound innocuous, to slowly achieve their goal of a communist world."

Because, of course: LEFTIST!!!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: Hitler vs Trump - 08/14/19 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
All of the Trump supporters I know from across the country, thanks to the internet, know that Trump will walk away from the Oval Office, as soon as his term in office is over. While you might believe it Donald J. Trump can and does tell jokes.


All of the Trump supporters I know from across the country, thanks to the internet, insist that if he loses, it will be because the election was rigged.
Or was I imagining all the times he said that very thing?