The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing

WHOA!!!


First I've seen that Trump was using extortion to get what he wanted from the Ukraine.

No duh.

...but topic is deserving of its own thread.

In an Op-Ed piece for the Washington Post, Ukrainian journalist and political activist writes of how Guiliani has dragged newly elected Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky into the 2020 US presidential election:

Guiliani's disinformation and the manipulation of facts

[Rick, my friend, it would be helpful if you identified the publication of the cite. WaPo has a subscription model, and I've used up my freebies already following links. (Not your fault, just reality.) So I can't access the cite. That's why I try to post the source when I provide links.]

Unlike many, I never respected Giuliani. He's always been a real sleazeball and inarticulate oaf. He just had the misfortune of being Mayor of New York when 9/11 happened and everyone was forgiving at that time. It was such a shock to the nation, we elevated anyone who was in charge, even if they were incompetent.

But this Ukraine thing is going to (should) be the undoing of the administration when it comes out. The purpose of the delay tactic is to "normalize" it - or at least get us used to it so it doesn't shock us so bad. It worked for pussygate, Trump tower, the Mueller report and the numerous other outrages of this administration, so it is following that playbook. It appears pretty clear, though, that what Trump was offering was a bribe of US money for political support. I think he figured it worked for Putin, so that must be how the game is played. That is his go-to operational method. Carrot and stick. I'll sanction you if you don't cooperate with my political program, or reward you if you do. He doesn't understand/care if that is just stupid or outright dishonest. It is how a bully with resources operates.

Apparently he threatened to withhold Congressionally authorized support, which puts it in the category of extortion, as well as usurpation of the House's power of the purse.

Of course, the usurpation issue is Congress's best cause for impeachment. The fact that he is stealing the money in an extortion racket makes it more compelling than stealing money for The MAGA Wall through a fake national emergency declaration is.

Rudy Giuliani accused me of exposing Paul Manafort’s Ukraine deals to help U.S. Democrats. That’s a lie.
Washington Post

There is no excuse for Nancy Pelosi not to publicly announce Impeachment hearings into this Ukraine matter.

As Conservatives say: "You got him this time."

Yes we do.

No we don't. Until that transcript is in the hands of the appropriate committees we have nothing but a newspaper article to base any charges on.

Even then it may not be the sure thing everybody is hoping it will be.

Remember Mueller?

The internet is calling this the "Ukrainian One" scandal to rub in the face of Right-wingers debunked "Urnaium One" scandal.

What happened there is Bill Barr got ahead of the release and debunked the Report before it was even released.

This is the pattern for this corrupt Administration - to get ahead of the bad news and spin the facts into a different direction.

Disinformation and the manipulation of facts is just what Rightwingers do.

Not only was the $250m in Taxpayer money being extorted, but Donald J Trump wanted the Ukraine President to say that the blood money for Paul Manafort was part of a Deep State campaign led by Hillary Clinton.

So it was two things.

From May 2019, hiding in plain sight in Guiliani's own words:

Sounds like the words of an innocent stable genius to me.

Nancy Pelosi warns that the Trump Administration "Will Be Entering a Grave New Chapter of Lawlessness" if they don't comply with the new Ukraine investigation. So what? Nancy isn't going to do anything about it anyway.

"My crimes cannot be investigated until I am out of office."

Trump admits he's committing crimes, he's just saying he's in the clear as long as he's in power! Trump is actually TEACHING the FOUNDING FATHERS where they went wrong!

Rick why is it so difficult for you guys to accept the possibility that Aunt Nancy doesn't want to give Trump any wiggle room? Maybe she wants impeachment to be GUARANTEED removal from office by the Senate.

Pretty sure this one is a slam-dunk. Plus there is an established pattern now.

Nancy Pelosi had better be prepared to shove her stiletto heel up Donald Trump's orange ass, this time.

Not in the Senate it ain't. Not yet.



Oh believe me, whether it's a stiletto heel or karma dry-drilling him with a cactus, it's coming.

I think Auntie Nancy just wants maximum bang for the buck, that's all.
Her own daughter says:



And Nancy thinks it's a compliment, which I suppose it just might be.
I don't think she is fond of big splashy theatrics, I think she wants to come as a thief in the night. Then you get the big splashy theatrics.
See, she probably doesn't like to telegraph her moves in advance.
That's just dumb.
So right now I think for Nancy, impeachment is still off the table...until suddenly when it is on the table.

Donald Trump admitted at a UN presser today to withholding military aid to the Ukraine in exchange for "dirt" on Joe Biden.

Trump only thing cares about is that people hear is ‘Joe Biden and his son are corrupt.’ It doesn’t have to be true. Trump doesn’t have to prove it. He doesn’t have to provide evidence. All he cares about is sowing those seeds of distrust and doubt in the American electorate months before an election.

My response is this:

There’s a lot of talk about the fact that Trump molested a teen girl. I know nothing about it. I hear that he molested a teen girl. I’m sure that somebody will be looking at that.

Two can play THAT game.

As long as Republicans hold the Senate, President Donald (...) Trump will never be convicted let alone tried or the charges even heard.


So Speaker Pelosi will:

Keep investigation(s) on going and public
Plan Articles of Impeachment for June
Pass them in early July
Pass them to the Senate in late July
Everybody goes home in August
The constituents express their opinion(s)
The senate will refuse to hear the articles in September, let alone a trial
Everybody goes home to run for office in October
We vote in November...

My current thoughts on this whole thing.

Trump and his sycophants ever changing story tells us decent and moral Americans that we really do "have him now."

That would be delicious!

So how did a political fail-son, known to buy crack shirtless, get his arse on a Ukranian energy company board of directors?

Is it like Joe Manchin's daughter's company bilking every community's in America's school's, fire department's and ambulance corps for the cost of mandated Epipens but more comical?

Trump I get but the other part of the story?..... You have to admit, it has more comic possibilities than the usual Liberal centrist rip-off's.

People do rehabilitate themselves and turn their lives around.

The Washington Post reported and the Wall Street Journal has confirmed that Donald Trump himself ordered the freeze of congressionally allocated funds for Ukraine just one week before that phone call where he requested eight separate times that Ukrainian Prime Minister Volodymyr Zelenskiy open a sham investigation of Joe Biden and his son. Which means Trump had personally started putting the squeeze on Ukraine before he made the big ask on July 25th.

Trump's trusty henchman Mick Mulvaney set the wheels in motion. On July 18, the Office of Management and Budget, headed by Mulvaney, told the Pentagon and the State Department that the funds allocated by Congress for Ukraine were being frozen because the president had "concerns." Except, as the The Washington Post reports, the White House made darn sure not to tell them what those "concerns" were - which is how you know they were trying to cover their tracks.



Donald Trump held up the $500 million allocation for Ukrainian weapons systems, maritime defense, and coordination with NATO, and then took steps to hide what he was doing by getting his underlings to lie about it. That's pretty strong circumstantial evidence that he intended to use the money as leverage to get the Ukrainian government to gin up a bogus case against Joe Biden.

Look, if the public is this far ahead of this Ukrainian thing in keeping-up with the details, Trump will not be able to wiggle out of this one.

Soooooo....

A crack smoking fail-son of a neoliberal Veep finds love and redemption that ultimately leads to his career getting turbo charged with an almost preternatural talent for eurasion energy management.

O.K., sure...

If I didn't know any better I'd swear someone thinks this is all about protecting Hunter Biden or Joe Biden.

Wouldn't it just be a damned shame if this ruined Biden's chance at the Democratic nomination.......

**chuckles maniacally**

Two shitbirds with one stone?

**cautiously raises hand**

I think I know...Biden used his political clout to set the boy up! Probably using the same defensive aid money that Trump was bargaining with.

Fine by me.
Vote for President Elizabeth Warren

Sandcastle meet P!ss storm.

Sanders. I don’t identify with the PMC. They’ve run the Democratic Party in the dirt.

Only if it's President Pence v Lizzy Warren.

Huh? Sorry Rick but I don't think we get to choose who the R candidate is going to be. Auntie Lizzy will have to run against whoever they put up. It might be Trump, and she will beat him like a drum if it is.

I'd even bet Bernie could beat him under the right circumstances.
We still have over a year to go, so my own personal choices may change again and again, given the expected and perennial candidate shakeouts that are going to happen.

Thing is, I am ever mindful of the fact that we're also voting for House and Senate. If we take the Senate and keep the House, and Trump wins, politics is going to look markedly different on January 21, 2021, especially if Mr. Trump wins reelection.

• Trump asks for a "favor."
  
• Trump asks a foreign government to investigate a political opponent based upon a rumor that Trump heard.
  
• Trump reminds that foreign government that the US has done more for the foreign government than Germany has.

...all the while Trump knows he's polling -14 points less then Biden on the day of this conversation and was "exonerated" the day before by Robert Mueller's testimony before Congress.

Also, Trump initially said that this was a discussion about trying to root out corruption in Ukraine, trying to ensure that the money was going to the right places, et cetera. There’s nothing about that in this transcript.

The "transcript". Otherwise known as a smoking gun. In this case, one that is set to "cook off". The only parallel to a bbq cook-off being the smell of seared meat.

It's no transcript, more of notes of a phone call. The Whistle Blower report needs to be released in its entirety. Trump is releasing it redacted.

Also, Bill Barr needs to recuse himself of all things Ukraine since he's mentioned in the phone call.

Of course he is. You expected a transcript of a recorded phone call?

This is Donald Trump. You'll get what he sends over and nothing else.

Try not to get too excited over this, Rick, it's just another chance to own the libs.

And own us they will. Trump's chance at re-election just took a big jump and my prediction of a Democratic bloodbath in 2020 has ended.

WH transcript...erm, notes

Could someone in the media do a detailed timeline investigation of all Biden's and Ukraine?

The best I can make of it, the Venn intersection of Biden to corruption in Ukraine is null.

Question is...how did the younger Biden acquire his position on the board of...of...something or other in Ukraine?

Did Papa Joe pull some strings? If he did is that corruption?.

Donald J Trump gave a nutso, completely unhinged UN presser today with the Ukrainian President right by his side. (What a happy coincidence THAT turned out to be! )

Trump hopes that Zelenskiy can "get together [with Putin] and solve your problem." ( Remember, the little "problem" is that Russia invaded and is now occupying the Crimea) and calling losing the Crimea to Russia "one of those things."

Trump spun a lot of conspirators theories: Hunter Biden walked away with 'millions" from Ukrainian board member job. Hillary's emails on a server in Ukraine. BAMZ!!! only gave "sheets and pillows" to the Ukraine.

Donald Trump ended the presser by stating with certainty and gladness that fortunately Nancy Pelosi is not speaker of the House anymore.

...just your average crazy as a bed bug Trump news presser.

ABC News is reporting: Ukrainians understood Biden probe was condition for Trump-Zelenskiy phone call

MSNBC finally did it: They broke into Trump's press conference to say: "Sorry, but the President is lying..."

About time!

MSNBC Cuts Into Trump’s Press Conference

Yup, America is getting tired of Trump's shyte.

The Whistle Blower complaint has been released.

What always annoys me about liberals is they are sooooo boring with their political entertainment. All their programmed entertainment is just so much 'HOW DARE YOU SIR!!!"

And yet here's a neoliberal Democrat U.S. Senator's crack smoking, dead brother's wife banging, fail son sitting on a Ukraine energy giant's board of directors after having left being an attorney and CEO(!) of 'World Food Program, USA'.

Don't get me wrong, I've been enjoying all the riffing and memes on Uday and Qusay Trump and their shenanigans but c'mon! This should be comic gold.

Nawp, here come the party power structures to smother what should be weeks worth of comedy infonewstainment. Like that lame study hall monitor from high school that won't allow anyone to talk. I mean, how do you reconcile this:

'Hunter Biden began dating his brother’s widow while recovering from a week spent buying crack from a homeless encampment in Los Angeles, according to a new report.'


with this:

'WASHINGTON - Hunter Biden, the younger son of Vice President Joe Biden, is joining the board of a gas company operating in Ukraine, the company announced Tuesday, as the West seeks to help Ukraine wean itself off its dependence on Russian energy.'

Gawd, liberal TV sucks...

I am innocent!!!! Spkr Pelosi made the call. Fake news!!! The transcript is fake news.

I am the greatest!!!!!


Just ask me ... no I'll tell you how great I am


Narcissists .... simply amazing and Republicans will defend him all because of the bigotry of the base.

By not treating "PageSix.com" as actual journalism? Dunno... trick question?

Human folly ceased to amaze me a long time ago...

But MSNBC is?

The links out from Page Six were working when I tried em....

Why are holding adult parents responsible for their adult children's behavior? How fair is that?

I know. I know Rick. I've never been happy about the media attention with Uday and Qusay Trump.

I'm, I'm......I'm full of shame....

How could I be transgressing.....

Wait, what's the problem here?......

Oh yeah, corruption in both parties having absurd levels of comedy and tragedy?

I never bought crack from homeless encampments.
Truth be told, much of what was slung as "crack" often turned out to be largely baking soda, or baby laxative. Sometimes it was even soap chips or gypsum drywall chunks.
Nope, I had a bunch of regular and reliable dealers who could be summoned to my place with a phone call.
And by the way, most of them looked like college kids, because none of them partook of the crack they slung. They were business, strictly business.

And I've been clean for twenty-five years now.
But I earned the trust of the production community anyway and got hired to work on several feature films only a few years after I sobered up, thus proving, at least to myself, that even a recovering crackhead can put their life back together and straighten up and fly right.

I made some serious mistakes.
But I held myself accountable and worked my butt off to restore my life and seek forgiveness to those I had wronged.

It's too bad that some of the more judgmental people in the world cannot believe such a thing is possible but I sure am grateful that I was allowed to go back to the creative arts that I enjoyed a decade before as a career.

Liberalism itself sucks, apparently.
Particularly when an attempt is made to help wean Ukraine off Russian oil and gas.
Specifically, Burisma's main wheelhouse happens to be hydraulic fracturing for gas and oil. As bad as fracking might be if done sloppily, it appears to be far better than being dependent upon Vlad Putin.

Much of EU happens to share that feeling.
I suppose they suck, too.

The world is dying from capitalism
One completely corrupt, reality star cum President of the United States of America tries to blackmail a former actor, comedian President of a former Soviet Country, that we assured Russia we would not allow NATO to expand into (traditional invasion route into Russia Y'all), about a potential political rival's crack smoking son's appointment to a board room of a corporation involved in helping with killing the world and you want to moralize Jeff?

It's comedy wrapped in genocidal tragedy plating out in front of our times and the usual, set yer watch to it, liberal response is yet another blame, shame 'how dare you sir!'...

yeah, liberalism does suck.

The Biden’s, Trump, Kiev and Impeachment

Short but good, IMO.

Jared Kushner sitting next to the President of Ukraine in June 2019. Trump's call was on July 25, 2019. I'm sure Jared never mentioned Joe or Hunter Biden at all to Ukrainian President Zelensky.

NPR also did a run down as well.

Timeline from what I have put together:

• Ukraine had a revolution in February 2014 pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych ousted flees country.
  
• Owner of Bursma Holdings flees country, but retains ownership
  
• Pro-Western president, Petro Poroshenko, takes over.
  
• Obama Admin and EU prepared to work with new Ukraine government, but concerned about corruption.
• Obama makes Vice President Biden the point man
• Spring of 2014, Joe Biden begans his trips to Ukraine
  
• Hunter Biden joins Burisma Board April 18, 2014
  
• October 2014, Hunter gets fired from the Navy
  
• May 2016, Joe Biden makes demand that corrupt Proscecutor gets fired before $1bn aid from US is issued.

I'm spit-balling here of course, but to me, the timeline suggests the Hunter Biden got the job simply to be a mole and keep an eye on things. Having Hunter Biden as a Board Member gave the US government eyes and ears into the operation of Burisma Holdings.*



* of course, I could be completely wrong.

...from chunkstyle's Counter Punch Link:


The May 1, 2019 NYT article which the above Counter Punch quote is supposedly based upon, does not say what this quote says, or even allude or insinuate what the quote claims, at all. Or...at least I can't find it.

Weird!

Devin Nunes, one of the top corrupt toady morons in government today, warned McGuire that the Democrats would take his words about the "credible whistleblower complaint" and spin them to make it appear that McGuire meant what he said.

Such is the state of Republican leadership honesty and mental competence.

“Former Vice President Joe Biden, now a 2020 Democratic presidential contender, has locked into a specific story about the controversy in Ukraine.

He insists that, in spring 2016, he strong-armed Ukraine to fire its chief prosecutor solely because Biden believed that official was corrupt and inept, not because the Ukrainian was investigating a natural gas company, Burisma Holdings, that hired Biden's son, Hunter, into a lucrative job.

There's just one problem.

Hundreds of pages of never-released memos and documents - many from inside the American team helping Burisma to stave off its legal troubles - conflict with Biden's narrative.”


The HILL Op/Ed

So here’s the thing. This isn’t gunna end anytime soon or well and there’ll be plenty more stuff to dribble out. When you stop being critical of one corporate political party you do tend to leave the field to the other. It’s catch up after that.

Our history in the Ukraine and the former Soviet bloc countries goes further back than Koch news network Rick. You could make a case that the Empire has had a direct hand in much of the situation unfolding there today. Unlike our own current situation having been wrought by Putin?

But I still like how Hunter got thrown out of the navy for candying up his nose but now becomes our man in Havana script. After all, people. With drug dependencies make the most loyal and incorruptible in the diplomatic core. If that was the case does he still have child immunity from satire?

I wish I had parents that could bail me out of drug crash with a seat at the board of a resource extraction company. Expense account, six figure salary and all. Nothing to see here folks just average failing upwards in a political protection scenario.

We return you to Qusay and Udays trophy kill Safari photo’s [img:left]https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trumps-son-game-hunting-photos/[/img]

I really should learn how to insert images...

Get a Photobucket.com account. When you upload images, there will be about five ways to link your photo.

For Reader Rant, you want to pick the last one. Simply copy that link and post it straight into your post.

In April 2014, Hunter Biden went from Navy Reservist making Navy pay, to making $15K a month as a Board Member plus Navy pay. Six months later, Hunter had a coke problem.

Hunter was making too much money after getting the Board job.

Thanks Rick, I’ll try that

After?!

It doesn't say it because maybe, just maybe, Counterpunch's author doesn't have anything to back up the "overly conscientious prosecutor" nonsense.
Who exactly is saying that the holdover prosecutor (wait, wasn't he an AG like Barr?) was a saint? His name is Viktor Shokin, and he was their "Prosecutor General", which I suppose is an equivalent to an Attorney General, yes?

Shokin was appointed Prosecutor General of Ukraine on 10 February 2015, replacing Vitaly Yarema.
He was a controversial appointee due to his perceived role in blocking prosecutions against those accused of shooting demonstrators in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution.
As Prosecutor General, he was accused of blocking major cases against allies and influential figures and hindering the fight against against corruption in Ukraine.

The entire EU was ecstatic over his firing. Why was the entire EU happy with the sacking of an AG in Ukraine? If he was such a golden boy, as Counterpunch implies, the EU should have had his back, yes?
The EU is every bit as dependent upon Russian oil and gas as Ukraine is, and several countries in the EU as well as the rest of Eastern Europe have experienced Russian oil and gas price shocks between 2005 and 2014.
Burisma's main specialty is FRACKING, which although potentially bad for the environment, was finally judged to still be better than being beholden to Russia.

So suddenly Burisma is being investigated by Shokin?
Is it even remotely possible that Shokin might have been another one of Vlad Putin's zombie assets like our own president?

Sorry but I am not automatically enamored of Counterpunch's view on this issue. Smells vaguely like a hint of BS.

But I could be wrong

Didn’t neoliberal joe support a draconian drug bill sometime ago?
Wonder how those kids are doing?

But okay...now you think I am defending Joe Biden.
It's irresistible to you, isn't it?
Just as Senator Hatrack can't resist red-baiting me, you can't seem to resist labeling me as some Republican-Lite neoliberal Biden supporter, which of course, is not the case.

You were so eager to get that in there that you didn't even care that it was a minor thread hijack (which is actually amusing ) but since you did bring up something deserving of its own thread, I'd like to cordially invite you to CREATE that thread so that we CAN discuss Uncle Joe the Drug Warrior's exploits.

If you don't create it, I will.
Just lemme know, wouldja?

You're welcome.

Thanks for the topic division... while Biden was technically fair game for the topic, it was confusing in that it was intended to be about Trump's shenanigans.

Biden's woes are plenty for their own thread!

Two things strike me, neither of which I have adequately researched.

1. Based on preliminaries I suspect Hunter is a frakup, who needs help with life choices.
2. I still do not see a link between VP Biden's actions and Ukrainian corruption.

Comment on #1: I think there needs to be a more detailed investigation of why Hunter was chosen to be the US representative on the board of a known corrupt Ukrainian company. Did he get the proverbial helping hand of knowing the right folks, a la nepotism, which may or may not be corrupt? or was he simply the most available person at the time?

Crazy Giuliani continues to spout allegations for which I can not find evidence.

I dunno

Frankly, I didn’t know what you were getting at, Jeff, cept you were addicted to the good times and maybe sympathized with the Biden kid. I do too but not with his neoliberal white people problems. I never said you were a fan of Candidate Biden.

Yes Logs, let’s narrow the discussion and ignore any other aspects but those that impact your preferred target.

NOT!!!

Don’t get me wrong, that’s as much a motherload of incompetent comedy and trajectory but, what, is it to sensitive to talk about what that monkeyf#ck of an administration was even after? That would be a lot more boring and slightly dishonest wouldn’t It?

I still can’t brlieve they emailed Pelosi their talking points memo. This is such high grade incompetence, greed and corruption on parade from both corporate parties you can’t expect us to limit ourselves to just a few floats in it.

Purity tests are so...

The NPR link that I cited has a link answering that question.

I didn't realize that you were employing a "butwhaddabout..." argument. Are you?

I'm all for looking at Biden, but whatever his fukkups were re: Ukraine are a separate issue from Trump's current shitstorm. Toggling back and forth on separate things in one thread isn't very useful.

Pretty sure they're tied together and the whole reason for Trump's "current shitstorm."




Golly, no need to have everything in one place. Let's jump around to separate threads everybody.

Why don't you go ahead and tie them together for us.

• Ukraine had a revolution in February 2014 pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych ousted flees country.
  
• Owner of Bursma Holdings flees country, but retains ownership
  
• Pro-Western president, Petro Poroshenko, takes over.
  
• Obama Admin and EU prepared to work with new Ukraine government, but concerned about corruption.
• Obama makes Vice President Biden the point man
• Spring of 2014, Joe Biden begans his trips to Ukraine
  
• Hunter Biden joins Burisma Board April 18, 2014
  
• October 2014, Hunter gets fired from the Navy
  
• May 2016, Joe Biden makes demand that corrupt Proscecutor gets fired before $1bn aid from US is issued.

Donald Trump thinks there's somehow criminality in this scenario, he pressures the Ukrainian President to investigate Hunter and Joe Biden even though this scenario has already been investigated by the Ukrainian government and they found no malfeasance.

Because Trump used the power of the US Preidency / Leader of the Free World to assert pressure on a foreign government to get "dirt" on a political opponent due to this scenario, the Speaker of the House initiated a formal impeachment hearing. It turns out this conversation was then placed onto a server so no preying eyes could see the transcript. Oops.

You...are...welcome. Now relax, go have a drink.

What rick said.

It’s tbe very heart of the deal Trump was trying to make with Ukraine.
Pound salt with that ‘whataboutism’ deflection. It was moronic when it first showed up in the pouty media meltdown after the 2016 election.

Goodness, aren’t we all so desperate with a crack addict Vice President’s son having a legitimate reason to be board certified for Ukraine gas fracking economic activity.

I’m sorry, I just find that ironically hilarious while Trump’s activity is more straight forward.

Until his attorney starts going on tv or his assistants start emailing.

Sorry if anyone’s political sensitivities got offended.

Welp, since BAMZ!!! made Joe the point person for Ukraine and Ukraine corruption, ol' Joe putting his son Hunter into a position to be the eyes and ears of the US government - it makes sense to me.

...plus Hunter got a great pay raise. Who doesn't like a little extra in their paycheck each week?

I guess you never paid any attention to my comments that I'm not a fan of the Biden's. The posts I have seen on this thread have acknowledged that Trump is trying to use them in his whatabout arguments, which is the extent of the connection. But even though it is often stated that the Bidens are clean, I too wonder about the things you keep bringing up.

It's just that whether or not Hunter got s*** he didn't deserve, or if PapaJoe hepped the little drug addicted tyke out, or if Ol' Joe (he sure smells good!) has his own pot of corruption stew to tend - none of that has anything more to do with Trump's Trubbles. Hence, my opinion that the Biden intrigues should have their own topic.

You can’t separate the two. To my mind, it’s all part of the same narrative. Endemic corruption and hypocrisy. There is no convenient punctuation to this, though some would rather have it that way.

I’m not wedded to consumer brand loyalty politics. Don’t have a dog in the fight either. A pox on both houses. Those who have been pining for a legal solution to Trump may want to put up arbitrary guard rails and speed limits but I haven’t any need for em.

Well Rick if, Bamz did it then it must be all right. One can’t go against the word of Bamz. For he is the Kwisatz Haderach!!!

Surely, you jest.

The whole basis for the formal impeachment inquiry is because of the Bidens - at least Trump's neurotic fixation with them.

Exactly.

ps. I've never seen Dune. I had to google the reference to BAMZ!!!

Whaaaaaaa......!!!!

Well it’s pretty wild David Lynch film. Very Joseph Campbell story. Butter up the popcorn and put an end to missing out on references at the next party
Now I really am digressing.

Anyhow,
Why do I have the end credits score from VEEP rummaging around my mind as I read the stories unfold on this life imitating satire reality were calling US politics?

Don't do that.

I learned long ago not to argue with my betters. Now, where's that gin and tonic?

Trump's "butwhattabout" Biden isn't experiencing much traction... I wonder why?

This ones for you Logs:

“That’s the biggest crime in this story that isn’t being told. The illegal overthrow of a sovereign government.

As booty from the coup, the sitting vice president’s son, Hunter Biden, soon got a seat on the board of Ukraine’s biggest gas producer, Burisma Holdings. This can only be seen as a transparently neocolonial maneuver to take over a country and install one’s own people. But Biden’s son wasn’t the only one”

Full article


I guess no one party has a monopoly on grifting.

Sounds dirty. Worthy of its own thread. What’s it got to do with Trump?

It’s the basic dirt he appears to have been after in trying to bribe the Ukraine leader.

Why do you think it needs a separate thread?

No reason.

The transcript of the call reads like a classic mob shakedown:

• We do a lot for Ukraine
• There’s not much reciprocity
• I have a favor to ask
• Investigate my opponent
• My people will be in touch
• Nice country you got there. It would be a shame if Russia took the rest of it.

Mean girls

Well, past is prologue as the great bard once said but I guess we can't have it in one thread as Logs insists on for no particular reason.

I simply realized you won and I had no reason to continue.

Not in it to win it. I thought it was funny as a rubber crutch and couldn’t believe it hadn’t been talked about.
What’s there to win?

I wonder if Trump paid his three dirt-digging lawyers using campaign funds?

You can bet on it!

Right now?
What's the win right now?

Right now, and for the foreseeable future for the next two years at least, we win ESCAPE FROM THE CURRENT INFECTION.

Sorry that is not enough for everyone just yet.
Self preservation instincts are kicking in.
In case you didn't know it, there's an absolute raving madman running the country.

I had the sense in the possible quid pro quo between Mr Trump and the NRA, they would send money to campaign which Mr Trump would use for his impeachment defense fund.

So the question, can a sitting occupant of the WH buy an acquittal in an impeachment trial?

I think Chunks was referring to my comment up-thread a ways. What I meant is that I would stop trying to argue that the Biden Thing deserved its own topic. Then I cleverly started a new topic for it using an article about the Bidens that Chunks had posted under this topic.

Problem solved...

Looks like Mike Pompeo was actually on the July 25th Ukrainian call as one of the 12 people present for it.

rather dickishly and without any reasoning though. You seem intent on putting a firewall around the circumstances leading up to the events now playing out.
why though is beyond me

Who were you responding to?
Is there a quote?

Logtroll

Perhaps you are not seeing it correctly? That's all I can think of.

No, I think I'm seeing it correctly.

Perhaps this is a good example of the problem. You seem to not want to let me represent my own meaning and intent. I have learned that there is no point in arguing with someone who will not let me speak for myself, and listen to what I have to say with respect and consideration.

BTW, you are hijacking my topic again.

Perhaps
Perhaps you want to narrow the conversation
Seeing correctly...
Yeeesh!

Trump Pressed Australian Leader to Help Barr Investigate Mueller Inquiry’s Origins

Does this need it's own thread Logs, or does it belong here?

I'm still navigating your own dewey decimal system...

It's up to you. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or think. I'm not interested in a dead end argument with you just for sport.

Ukraine, Italy, and now Australia - all countries Trump asked "a favor" from.

Nancy wants to keep the impeachment articles narrow, but Trump has committed so much corruption, it's going to be hard to keep the inquiry narrow.

I find it interesting that there’s as many arguments for impeachment as against in the leftist media with good arguments being made by both sides of the argument.
Nader’s all in on impeaching the President, not just for Ukraine, but all his constitutional transgressions.
Others think it will backfire and lead to an election victory and four more years of the current administration.

One that was pretty spot on for me was:

‘It blows my mind that congressional Democrats will draw a red line on Ukraine while virtually ignoring decades of presidential misconduct. Where was Congress when Obama, then Trump, sponsored Saudi Arabia’s war crimes in Yemen? Both presidents provided military assistance to a cause that could not have proceeded without it. And both failed to secure the constitutionally mandated approval from Congress.“

Impeach all Presidents

I can always tell what Trump is up to, because he starts accusing opponents of that crime. He's calling people traitors, but all they are guilty of is lese majeste, which is not a crime in our country. Meanwhile, he is promoting civil war if he would be impeached. That would mean he is going to war against the legitimate successor President.... Which is the very definition of treason.

Let's hope so: Do they still hang people for treason?

According to this Washington Post timeline, it now seems that Trump's involvement to get back at Joe Biden is a two-for: (a) knock-off the Dem leading Trump in the polls (b) payback for getting Paul Manafort exposed for off-the-book payments.

I did not realize that Paul Manafort was exposed as a result of the US via VP Biden's insistence that the Ukraine investigate corruption in 2014-15.

Knowing how extremely vindictive Trump is, this is all starting to make sense now.

The The New York Times also helped push the US into war with Iraq in 2003. For a supposed "left-wing" paper, they sure do align themselves with rightwing propaganda. ,

The NYT left?!

Never been a war, coup, fascist right wing gorilla insurgency they haven’t supported for as long as I’ve been alive.

Isn't that precisely what Mr Trump wanted? an end to corruption in Ukraine.

Looks good to me.

The major problem with all of this is that Trump believes right-wing conspiracy theories which have been debunked.



For a supposed "stable genius," it appears that Mr. Trump is not very bright individual.

That's due in part to the fact that Donald Trump is computer illiterate, so he apparently thinks that data is somehow "carved into" the server, like it's a piece of granite or something.
The concept of magnetically encoded ones and zeroes on a storage device which can be cloned remotely does not occur to him because he has no understanding of the subject, and when experts try to explain it, he doesn't want to listen to them.

He thinks that a server is like some magical secret amulet, like a holy runestone imbued with "powers", and that to have easy access, one must physically take possession of it, much like taking possession of a magic amulet.

All your base are belong to us!

For those on the right ... nothing has been debunked. The facts are fake ... the logic is too logical ... and the conclusions do not comport with their delusions.

So WaPo is saying that Pence's Top Security guy was on the July 25th phone call (...along with Mike Pompeo) and Pence had to have received a summary of that call for his meeting with the President of Ukraine on September 1, 2019 in Warsaw.

On September 1, 2019, the monies Congress allocated for the Javelin anti-tank missile system was still on hold - because Trump had not authorized the release.

But Pence is calming he was unaware of the quid pro quo of the July 25th phone call - even though he had summary of the call from his top security advisor.

If there is anything Mike Pence does well, is to play dumb.



Earlier this afternoon 10/03/19, the NY Times reported that a letter was drafted outlining what Ukraine had to do in order to receive the $450M that Congress allocated for the Javelins.


It's unclear if the Ukraine ever received that letter as the Ukraine never released a public statement indicating they would follow conditions set-forth in the letter.

He isn't playing.

As I understand it there is no "The" in Ukraine. The USA or The UK or The United Arab Emirates is cool but Ukraine is just Ukraine.

That seems wholly discriminatory.

I had the same understanding. (Wikipedia).

The reality is it is just an affectation/grammatical error. This article explains: Ukraine or "The" Ukraine?

I use both.

When Ukraine was a part of Russia/USSR I think it appropriate to say The Ukraine because it was an area/province in Russia/USSR. Since it has become independent ... well I believe the name of the sovereign state is simply ... Ukraine. Thus I spent a lot of time in my youth saying The Ukraine ... kinda like The Congo ... and on it goes

Yeah, I always thought it was like "the Caucuses" or "the Urals", but now I know better (sorta). It's more like Canada.

I think their defense has devolved into the apple you see is not an apple. It is an orange.

The Base has taken a bite of the apple and they think it IS an orange.

• Trump says there was no quid pro quo
• His hapless fans spend two days spamming the internet with "NO QUID PRO QUO"
• Text evidence between State Officials released showing ironclad proof of the quid pro quo

So much Trump corruption, so little time.

Trump rats-out Rick Perry in the Ukrainian scandal.

Drain the #TrumpSwamp.

I thought it was odd that Rick Perry was resigning in a few weeks. Now we know why.

Perry insists he was just there to talk about energy. That natural gas blackmail thingie Russia was attempting until we began sending LNG to Europe. I wonder if Trump is drowning and grabbing any convenient swimmer to try to save himself.

Today, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, two foreign-born associates of President Donald Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, have been charged with campaign finance violations. Igor Fruman and Lev Parnas worked with Giuliani, the attorney has said previously, as part of his dealings in Ukraine that involved efforts to encourage the nation to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden.

The House impeachment investigating committees asked Parnas and Furman to produce documents and to testify about the Ukraine scandal. Yesterday 10/09/19 their lawyer wrote an astounding letter denying Congress had the authority to make such demands and that it was simply trying to "harass, intimidate and embarrass" his clients. He wrote the letter in comic sans font, which seems to suggest he is laughing at the idea he and his clients have to answer to Congress.

This morning 10/10/19, the two were arrested for these charges.

I just dropped this over in another thread. I got a good belly laugh out of it!

Is anyone starting to think there are far too many leads to follow to find time to write a charge sheet for impeachment before Nov 2020???

Apparently the woman who was our Ambassador to Ukraine (Marie Louise Yovanovitch) said that Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman and Giuliani wanted her gone as they thought she was interfering with the corruption of Ukraine which they were depending on to do whatever it is that they were doing.

In other words, if Giuliani was doing the bidding of Our Dear Leader Trump, then Trump was actually upset that the Ukrainians were actually making headway on their corruption which was discommoding his efforts to do whatever he wanted doing. This would mean that Jackass the corruption killer is really not a corruption killer at all!

You just gotta wonder. This entire deal just keeps getting worse, and more confusing, anytime something new raises its head. Its really pretty amazing. One can only wonder what's coming next, what disaster is on its way as well is what disaster just happened. In my own mind, how in the HELL are any of those Republican senators going to explain it all to their constituents or even each other. My main concern is whether the Democrats are going to have the gumption to even ask them.

Just wondering.............

They won't have to, most of their Republican constituents won't ask. As to the Democratic constituents, some will ask. However, remember peer pressure is very powerful. As Dumbledore once said, "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends." From Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

This is why Nancy wants a narrow focus of the Articles of Impeachment. The July 25th phone call and its web of GOP deceit is enough to get us there.

There is a large cadre of personnel who are implicated in the call. We have ambassadors, NSC folks, attorneys, Sec Pompeo, AG Barr, Ukrainians and these are the ones who are known. Imagine if Giuliani and his henchmen can shed light on the call. Secret server.

Suppose the investigators find there are more calls? One call may earn the occupant a censure from the Senate but think if there is a pattern of abuse. It could not be overlooked, even by Republicans.

All valid points. Trump has already admitted to extortion and bribery on the July 25th call. That's all the Dems really need to Impeach Trump.

The investigations can still continue.

Not quite.

Mr Trump admitted to a "perfect" call, which any objective person should see as an example of what a smoking gun criminal collusion act is. Mr Trump may be the only person who did not understand what his call was. The NSC folks, recognized it and went into immediate coverup mode, WH attorneys recognized it and ordered the coverup, Amb Sondland knew Mr Trump was already engaged in a quid pro quo and had to confer with Mr Trump to verify Mr Trump did not think it was, all the US Ukrainian diplomats recognized Giuliani's efforts as criminal activities, should I go on .... it would appear everyone but Mr Trump recognized it for what it was ... a "perfect" example of abuse of power.

And this is precisely why Mr Mueller wanted to interview Mr Trump and all of Trump's attorneys did not want him to be deposed ... OMG ... he would have given up the gig before anyone could light a cigarette.

Does anyone recollect the courtroom scene from "A Few Good Men"? Here is my paraphrase

Rep Shiff: Did you order US aid to be held up until Ukraine begin an investigation into the Biden's?!

Mr Trump: YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I DID!

Mr Trump: [Rep Shiff dismisses the committee] What is this? Mr Chairman, what's going on? I did my job, I'd do it again! [stands up defiantly] I'm gonna get on a plane and go on back to Mar a Lago

Mr Trump: What the hell is this?

AG Barr: Mr Trump, you have the right to remain silent. Any statement you make...

Mr Trump: [while AG Barr continues reading his rights] I'm being charged with a crime? Is that what this is? I'm being charged with a crime? This is funny. That's what this is. This is... [turns to Rep Shiff and lunges at him while Sgt at Arms hold him back] I'm gonna rip the eyes out of your head and piss into your dead skull! You [censored] with the wrong Trump!

And that would be the real narcissist Donald J Trump in action

That's because Mr. Trump, a self-labeled "stable genius," is not a very bright individual in reality - at all.

Duh

It is unknown what the facts are but if Giuliani was breaking the law at Mr Trump's order ... well you guys know the rest of that

There is a pattern of criminal behavior ... this is precisely what the Founders thought when they used the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors". We have them in spades.

Conservatives: What crimes?

(If you have to ask... , )

I believe it!

I see that a number of State Department employees and former employees have been told not to testify by Pompeo and then gone ahead and testified before congress as requested. At least a few people realize how the law works and don't want to go to jail! I suppose that ordinary staff is not going to stick their necks out for illegal orders, while Trump's appointees (being incompetent) agree to follow the captain down with the sinking ship. Of course, they believe the captain can keep the ship afloat in spite of the gaping holes in the hull, by sheer will power!

I wonder if Pompeo will be criminally liable for ordering people to do illegal thing at some time in the future. This could all make one hell of a RICO prosecution.

I think I already promoted the idea in a post responding to the Senator, Mr Trump was a crime boss involved in a conspiracy which included, Sec Pompeo, AG Barr, Chief Advisor Mulvaney, Amb Sondland, and those are just the governmental conspirators. The foot soldiers in this conspiracy include Att Giuliani, Parnas, Fruman as well as links to already indicted Ukrainian Firtash. I would like to stretch the extend of this conspiracy by including members of Fox News who have promoted the efforts of the criminal activities of this gang and have aided in the coverup.

I think a mini-series is in order.

A good TV show demonstrating how corrupt all his BS has been, may be the only thing that can convince his hard-core followers that he is unworthy of their love. Then again you might have to frame it all in the context of WWE wrestling to reach some of them.

Pelosi: Why did you pull troops out of Syria?
Trump: Campaign promise to bring the troops home.
Pelosi: Saudi Arabia is home? You're sending troops there.
Trump: They're paying for it.
Pelosi: You're sending troops in harms way because Saudi Arabia is paying for it? All roads lead to Putin.

***Trump melts down***

Geeze, that interview didn't stick to the lib script...

You expected something different maybe? You imagine we'll be surprised at this revelation?

By rights, this affair should destroy any chance Biden has of getting the nomination. It will be slow moving but inexorable. Warren will continue to slowly rise. Despite Bernie's energetic performance in the debates his chances of getting the nod are toast.

If Warren wants to genuinely kick Donald's ass in the general election she'll choose Bernie as a running mate. That will make Warren look more mainstream to centrists yet will pull in the lefties! That's not a prediction though, that's just a pipe-dream.

**reaches for pipe**

Were we talking about the Sanders candidacy? I'm confused.

Dems dismiss Allegations Perhaps you recall posting that? Then I asked if the dismissal was a surprise to you. It certainly wasn't to anyone else. After that I ruminated a bit about the effects on the overall election. I hope that clears up any confusion.

Yes indeedy,

Ruminate away.

I'm not sure this Ukraine nefariousness will confine itself to Biden's campaign. It may have the opposite effect of energizing Trump's base as Russiagate did.
The fact that it's so easy to call B.S. on this one makes me wonder what the consequences will be for liberal's chances of regaining the senate and White house.
Trump should be able to negate the allegations as Democrats hands are dirty in the Ukraine as well.
If elections are about turning out your base I wonder who's base will be more energized over this?

"The Ukraine story might sink his campaign, but it also may help… Impeachment does commit Democrats to a strident defense of Biden and his son, even if, or perhaps especially if, there’s a real problem that needs regular PR response."

Taibbi on the possible effects of Ukrainegate

Interesting take on how this may go down.

Since Biden has nothing to offer voters beyond making america great again by doing nothing at all I hope voters will be shying away from him.

Rallying around an empty old suit that smells of mothballs and urine is a lovely thought but as far as I'm concerned a Biden administration will be worse than a Trump second term. He's too old to serve two terms, his VP choice is bound to be some lackluster nobody. Maybe Booker? Republicans will make him a one term president and we'll be back to square one.

“Rallying around an empty old suit that smells of mothballs and urine” - Har!

Still, Taibbi made a few good observations of the debate and party in general. Given a choice between an agenda of broad popular proposals and a masquerade of ‘electability’ arguments and ‘mutual values’ platforms, I could see a Biden nomination come out of this.
Dunno, but the Ukraine corruption may prove to be an exposure liability that forces the Party to protect Biden for mutual self preservation as Taibbi suggests it could.
Next couple of weeks should be telling of wether the party abandons him or stays unified in the ‘nothingburger’ position they’ve currently taken.

I know Biden stands a fair chance of getting the nod but I simply cannot abide even the thought of it, so I live in this fantasy where Warren will beat him. There's a good chance it happens exactly as I plan, the path is wide open. Democratic voters have this one chance to get this thing right. They may not get another for a long time. They may not get another chance at all.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Biden got the nod and then picked Warren as VP? Presidents have usually picked some nebbish as the VP, just as assassination insurance I think. How about picking some Democrat from the opposite wing of the Party just to get all the Democratic voters to come out? What a concept!

That would take care of the age concerns as well: If Biden became less capable, his VP could handle more of the job. If he got really bad, he could resign and she would take over. Might be the only way we get a female President, since women seem so reluctant to vote for women.

Interesting concept and even I might vote for him if....no, no I wouldn't Biden is absolutely unacceptable under any circumstances.
I will not contribute to the fiasco Biden would create.

He's far more likely to pick Mayor Pete. In fact...let me make it an official prediction.

Biden will pick Mayor Pete if he gets the nod. Because youth and gayness.


He couldn't abide a genuine progressive as a running mate.

I felt the same way about Hillz and didn't vote in 2016. What did ol' Uncle Joe do to you?

Bill Taylor confirmed Trump's Ukranian quid pro quo this morning to Congress.

I can already hear the excuses now:

Question is...what did ol' Uncle Joe ever do? What has he promised to do as president. What do we expect the outcome of his Presidency to be?

Do you ever recall ever thinking "I'm glad ol' Uncle Joe is the VP in case anything ever happens to Obama!"

Did you ever once think "I hope he runs for president after Obama is gone!"

Are you currently hoping he'll get the nod?

Me either. He's got nothing but experience. He's never shown me any leadership skills. He checks all the boxes for long term congressmen who should have retired years ago. I could go on...and on and on.

But what really worries me is that he's not going to be a popular president, after all, he's just a placeholder, the one most likely to beat Trump which is what's on everybody's radar. Okay so he wins...then what? No charisma, no pizzaz, fake tan, fake hair, fake smile. Dishing out oatmeal to the press and boredom with the glacial movement after all the big talk in the primaries from the progressive candidates and the excitement it generated. We'll get Slow Joe. And no agenda beyond beating Trump and working across the aisle.

There are only so many ways that the 2024 election can turn out.

The most likely, as I see it, is the Far Left Congress will piss off the Republicans with their socialist agenda and ol' Uncle Joe will be defeated by a Republican in 2024. Then we're back to square one.

A more progressive and charismatic president will excite the Democratic base with some sensible legislation and at the same time will bring some non voting Americans to the polls in the next presidential election because of those same pieces of legislation.

A fairly simple thing like adding daycare to the public school system.

Warren has a plan for that. What's Joe got? Bernie has plans too! What's Joe got? Obama.

Simply NOT being President Jugalo... Like a return to the rule of law, the normal bounds of executive power, nominating judges that are rated "Qualified", hiring people to full administration positions who are not trying to sabotage their departments, acting as President to 100% of Americans instead of attacking anyone not in his base, supporting our allies, putting pressure on despots, and so much more.

I would prefer it not be Joe, but he's a LOT better than Trump. You could just pick any random person by lottery, and they would very likely be better than Trump.

Joe is polling at 34%. Thank you Donald Trump.

Yeah, that asswipe is gonna feck up everything.

First he took away a Hillary Clinton presidency which would have been amazing. And now he's gonna help a geriatric, out of touch, old fraud get elected for a single term.

Color me less than excited.

Joe Biden was first elected to office in 1970. 3 years later he became a congressman. He first ran for president in 1988. Then again 20 years later in 2008. And now here we are 10 years down the road and he's doing it again. He had nothing of interest to voters 30 years ago.
They weren't interested 10 years ago either. He has done nothing in the last 10 years and suddenly he's the leading candidate because he can magically beat Donald Trump who has a 90% approval rating within his party?

And yall gonna sit there and tell me that this is all fine and good because he's better than the worst president to ever occupy the Whitehouse.

I am not buying into this madness. It is a recipe for disaster.

That's exactly how I felt about a Hillary presidency and why I didn't vote in 2016. Plus being in a blue state, my vote didn't matter anyway - except to add to the popular count which is not how we elect Presidents.

I didn't buy into the madness of 2016 either, voting against both major party candidates. 25% of all Americans didn't like and didn't neither Trump nor Clinton to become president. 6% of the electorate voted against both. Some 9 million plus voters who thought it important enough to go to the polls to officially register their vote against both major party candidates. Who knows how many stayed home because of their dislike and unwanted candidates.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

54% of all independents disliked both candidates, but all but 12% of independents, some 42% worth voted for the candidate they least wanted to lose, not to win.

We're talking about a totally screwed up election where 60% of all Americans didn't want Trump, 60% didn't want Clinton which includes the 25% which didn't want both or neither one to become president.

2016 was an election between the two most disliked and unwanted major party candidates in our history. They just happened to be matched up against each other. Both set the record for the lowest favorable and highest unfavorable records. at 58% and 60% unfavorable's, they smashed Barry Goldwater's record of 47% back in 1964, the previous record holder.

Bottom line, we have whom we have as president due to the actions, decisions and choices made by both major parties back in 2016. It wasn't like the Democrats didn't have advanced warning. In a February 2016 poll, 56% of all Americans stated they wanted the Democrats to nominate someone other than Clinton. The Democrats ignored America as a whole, which was their right, no doubt about that. America as a whole don't decide who will be the Democratic nominee, Democrats do. But America as a whole decides who will be president.

Here are the 2016 vote numbers:

HClinton..........65,844,954
GJohnson..........4,488,919
JStein..............1,457,044
EMcMullin............725,902
Write-Ins..........1,103,554
Other.................453,664
------------------------------------
Total: .............74,074,037


Trump:............62,979,879


The non-Trump, non-Clinton numbers all together don't add-up to 25% of those who voted. More like 6%.

Damn, Rick. Facts, numbers, research. It's like you're trying to inject reality into the discussion...

6% of the total electorate is exactly what I stated in my post who voted third party in 2016 My exact wording was, "6% of the electorate voted against both." A reference to the third party voters. Perhaps I should have been clearer. 25% of the total electorate along with 54% of independents disliked both major party candidates which is in the Gallup article. Scroll down to the second greened in section under the title of "Opinions of Trump and Clinton, by Subgroup" for the 54% of independents having an unfavorable view of both Trump and Clinton. Here's the link once more.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

Old Uncle Joe is running out of cash so he's asking for super PAC support.

Gonna get the big money back into politics.

I have to agree, plus his eyeball exploded a while back anyway.

...but then you went on to state:


Mixed messages.

Yet you both will vote for ol' Joe (...well Greger anyway) if he's the Dem nom. Jeffrey lives in Cali, his non-vote if there is one won't matter.

It'll pick-up again now that he's the front-runner again.

I honestly do not believe Joe Biden will be the nominee, not even if they invent an inflatable Biden like the inflatable copilot in the movie "Airplane!"


But YES, if we are lackadaisical enough to allow Biden to beat everyone else, I WILL vote for him, and it may be the very last time people like me are ever allowed to vote because he will be a one term mediocre president that leads to another Trump.

Not shouting, just wanted to make it clear.
And by the way, we have to clean out CONGRESS because as can be seen, without a clear majority in both chambers, nothing will ever get done.

I should have been clearer I suppose. But it was definitely a mixed up election to put it mildly.

Nope. There are many paths that lead to Global Utopian Social Democracy, Joe Biden is not one of them. A second Trump term is probably the quickest but it will also be the most painful.

You've probably heard the leftist slogan: "Let's Burn This Mother phucker to the ground"? Wellsir, that's what a second Trump term will do.

But it won't be Republicans rebuilding when they're done.

If Biden is the nominee I'm sitting it out. I may take Chunkstyle's advice and stop voting altogether because a democrat might win. I'm going to be recommending that all my friends and associates withhold their votes as well. Until govermnent changes everything about how it does business I'm no longer voting.

Quinnipiac has Warren ahead....

RCP has Warren leading Biden in Idaho by 3.7%

A second Trump term could bring the end to the American experiment, though. We could easily become another Kleptocracy like Russia, and never recover. But you refuse to play because everything won't be perfect. Just take your football and go home.

Me and Chunks gonna play with our own balls!



EGGzactly! If the best we can hope for is Democrats running the country then it has already failed. Since we don't have the votes to make the changes we want then violent revolution may be the only answer.

Starting WW3 might work too. If enough people sit this election out and give it to Trump then WW3 is on the table!

Exciting times ahead for the survivors.

I understand you wanting to go in a blaze of glory (considering your health), but do you really want that for your daughter?

She's a radical feminazi lesbian lefty she'll be on the front lines.

This is what I'm seeing on RCP as of 10/25/19:

Yeah, your 34% from CNN is as big an outlier as Quinnipiac with Warren leading by 7%, go back there and you'll see the recent polls for Iowa. Polls are all over the place but Biden is still hanging on. It won't be too long before voting actually begins.

That's the only poll that really counts.

True.

I will be happy with ANY Democrat President, I really would. I'm just nervous that if Lizzy or Bernie gets the nom that the "socialist" label that Trump will put on them will guarantee Trump another four years.

Our country cannot have another four years of Trump - it just can't.

I would vote for any ham sandwich which I think would beat Mr Trump, whatever it's political persuasion. It is far more important to save the nation than allow it to be destroyed through incompetence and greed.

I think the real issue is that Trump supportors cannot, nor will not, admit they were wrong - so they're sticking with their failure of a president.

If you replace Clinton for Trump and President with Candidate, your statement says the same thing Rick.

I think the real issue is that Clinton supporters cannot, nor will not, admit they were wrong - so they're sticking with their failure of a candidate.

I think the real issue is that Sanders supporters cannot, nor will not, admit that they were wrong so they're sticking with their failure of a candidate.

Only one of these two is in the race, so who is sticking with whom?

Most of us got over the 2016 fiasco, some just won't let it go.

Simply pointing out the similarities in both houses as it relates to the ongoing topic of campaign monies being collected or spent.
Done badly enough, it can costs you the election, whatever the reasons.

I’m not interested in a retrial either. Just speaking frankly about some of what happened. Sanders made plenty of errors too, though of a different sort, IMO. Some feel he’s making them again. I’d be in that camp.

Style of fundraising probably should be its own topic though. Has nothing to do with Biden, Ukraine and whathaveya.

Not sure if you Ranters heard about Guilaini's butt-dialing, but it is a phenomena where you accidentally sit on your cell phone and dial someone up and don't realize it.

Guilani did this twice to the same NBC reporter.

Giuliani's phone called the NBC reporter and it went to vmail. The recording is of Rudy Giuliani talking to someone in an unguarded moment when he did not know anyone was listening.

Rudy is saying to the person in the room, "we had to force them to do the investigation." Rudy is talking about Ukraine there. And the ‘we’ is the question but pretty clearly involves Rudy Giuliani - also the need for cash - $100,000.00.

This is a real smoking gun that no one is quite talking about it enough.

No, it's a fart in a windstorm.

It meets all of the requirements to pin quid pro quo onto Trump - even though he, Giuliani and Mulvaney have already admitted quid pro quo on television.

Nothing will come of it.

Radical Rightist are showing their loyalty to a corrupt POTUS over a Lt Col. who bled for our country.

These Rightists show who they are. That's one good thing to come out of it.

All that from Rudy sitting on his phone?

No, all of this from Trump being an arrogant son-of-a-bitch pressuring Ukraine into digging dirt up on Joe Biden when Congress already approved the funds, all because Robert Mueller wouldn't indict Trump because of some ridiculously asinine DoJ memo.

Rudy's butt-dial confession only validates what Trump did - not to mention that Trump, Giuliani, and Mulvany have already confirmed Trump's quid pro quo on national television.

...from NY Magazine:


Looks like Rudy Colludy is in some deep shyte.

I love conspiracy stories about government because ... well .... sometimes the seed of truth germinates and blossoms into reality.

I have wondered for a while where Mr Trump got his conspiracy their from and now (if this info is accurate), I know. It is a wow story and I can't wait for the movie or limited TV series. Some of it I knew, but it is now glued together.

This is important for understanding Mr Trump and his confederates and their rabid belief regarding the start of the Russia Investigation.

Vindman exposes Trump’s plan to get Russia off the hook for election interference

Bolton set to testify.

Mebbe The Donald shouldn't have argued with walrus face about whether he quit or was fired.

Trump says that Ukraine is not a legitimate country, but part of Russia. (Vladimir Putin then popped a boner. )

This is exactly what innocent, nothing-to-hide people do:

Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence: Sondland and Volker Transcripts as Part of Impeachment Inquiry


Pence is implicated too.

Just read a piece which points to the Hunter Biden - Ukraine corruption. John Solomon, right wing investigative reporter, did a FOIA and found State had mentioned Hunter in emails which described the Burisma/Biden connection. According to story Ukraine was trying to investigate Burisma again. Burisma appealed to US State to stop it by using Hunter Biden's name. At same time the Kerry connection stepped in and visited the US. Almost immediately the investigation stopped when VP Biden made his infamous visit. Unfortunately this was not a real investigation so many pieces of evidence were not considered or found.

However, the story is a bit puzzling. First, conservatives are notorious for conflating timelines or distorting timelines to design a narrative they have already concocted. Second, it doesn't make sense that everyone in Europe wanted to replace the Ukrainian prosecutor if he was in fact really prosecuting corruption.

But from a superficial perspective the State Dept emails point to the obviousness of nepotism/cronyism and the effect it has on optics much less the real possibility there could have been some real corruption.

I suspect everyone is in agreement these guys should never have been appointed to board of Burisma. My God ... reminds me of how stupid Sec Clinton was to think she needed a private email server.

Pretty much everyone who can fog a mirror agrees that was an asinine decision by Clinton.

While I'm ranting about asinine Liberal pol decisions...

...as was Schiff's parody opening statement during an impeachment hearing recently. The stunt was unprofessional and has allowed conservatives as use the stunt as a talking point.

I have actually worked in the field for a long time, and I can tell you that Clinton's email server (that was never hacked) was much more secure than the State Department's computer (that was hacked multiple times). It's a matter of the number of users, all of whom are at risk of being phished. As far as I know, Clinton's server had one email account. The State Department server had thousands. They both had people running commercial security software with updates, so that was equally good, but the number of accounts presents a real problem. Clinton probably knew the State Department email server was not that safe, and she wanted to prevent leaks by hackers.

There was a tempest-rated super secure computer she used at the State Department for secret communications with ambassadors and such. There was never any cross linkage between that encrypted secure traffic and her personal account.

Do you agree that one of the main reasons she wanted her own server is at least partly because she did not want to give up her obsolete Blackberry? Far as I know, aside from that device, Ms. Clinton is not a power user that knows her way around modern internet connected computers and according to at least one or two in the know, she "has people for that".

(And I am trying to be kind in my description of her and computers)

well actually clueless is the word you are looking for. Her staff gave her a book, email for dummies.

Jeff is right, Sec Clinton did not want to give up her BB, which I presume was because she had become used to it and the learning curve on a new device would have been too much for her limited time resources. That and State did not have BB's which allowed private use. Only later did they have such devices. Anyway she had 17 different electronic communication devices during her tenure, and you can figure out why.

I understood her position, but common sense and the rabid right wing nuts out there should have prevailed, and she should have just bit the bullet and gone with State's system. So what if Fitton found out she did yoga 3 times a week. Frak him.

I assume she was not any more sophisticated about internet technology than the usual assortment of politicians in DC. I don't think ANY of our congressmen was an IT professional, and what I have heard coming out of hearings and such shows a shocking level of ignorance in some. Good politicians DO "have people for that" as do a lot of important or powerful people. In fact, she did have an IT professional supporting her server's security.

Just as a laugh: Colin Powell used an AOL account as Secretary of State!

The problem as I saw it was not that she had a pro take care of her server but that she had a server. It simply opened up right wing idiotic rantings for something which would have been easy to avoid. Imagine a private server and it only contained your private emails. Emails you did not want to share with right ing nuts. Picture it. Yep Every right wing nut can now make up whatever lie they want to to describe what you are doing with your server and now it occupies ALL of the public space. Bit the bullet and go through the available government system.

Yes both Sec Powell and C. Rice had public email accounts for private use but apparently Sec Rice never used her account and Sec Powell used his sparingly, and apparently not with staff. More interesting is the use of private email by Kushner and I Trump. ... should I say lock them up???

John Solomon, a major player in the Ukraine Gambit.

Trump:


Zelensky brings up an ask related to the United States’ military aid.


Trump then sets up the quid pro quo:


Trump then names the investigations of the DNC and Biden.

===============

Boom! #LockHimUp!

But that's the whole point.
Secretary Clinton (and President Trump) both pretty much represent the last vestiges of the old typewriter/word processor/day planner book generation of elected officials.

Some time ago they introduced a new thing called email and the Blackberry came along, and her general computer knowledge stopped right about at the place where people of a certain age and mindset just simply stopped maintaining curiosity and desire to learn. She learned how to do email and maybe calendar planning and that was what she wanted. Some people just decide, gradually or even suddenly, that they're not interested in learning new tech, it's just the way it is.

My oldest brother cannot live without his smartphone but he can't even begin to figure out how to operate a new laptop with either Win10 or the latest Apple OS, but his wife who is the about the same age is deft with them both.
He had a Blackberry and the conniption fit he threw when he had to figure out a Google Pixel 2 was something you could have bought tickets to see.
At one time in the 1970's Peter Haas owned the fastest growing chain of "super Hi-Fi" stereo stores in the Houston Area.

My ex-wife, same exact thing.
She passed away two years ago at age 70, but when our marriage fell apart in 1995 she knew how to use WordPerfect, but she never quite got the hang of the internet, even despite family efforts to get her into it to keep in touch. When she died, she still had a flip phone from two generations ago.
And this was a "genuine Hollywood starlet", former wife of the guy who associate produced Red Dawn in 1984, who learned to became a showbiz creative office manager, and she could work the phones and schmooze a room full of top celebrities like the pro she was.
And all done on paper.

So while it may indeed be true that some resort to outside resources for evil purposes, sometimes it is just a lethal combination of tech-ignorance and old age arrogance that leads down such a path.
It is much easier to just go off the reservation and "get the bootleg liquor without the test questions and the forms to fill out". (like they used to have to do in Utah state controlled liquor stores!)

The larger issue here of course is the fact that the USA can no longer afford to elect computer illiterates to public office at such a high level anymore. They do not need to be IT pros but they need to demonstrate a good and solid working knowledge of the tech that most of us take for granted today.
They need to have a level of skill in the field sufficient to prevent them from falling prey and they must be able to demonstrate the ability to USE this tech in a constructive way in their everyday duties at least as well as the office staffers they hire.

A logistics manager at a trucking company doesn't need to be a certified diesel mechanic but they at least need to be able to understand that diesel engines are difficult to start in sub-zero temps, they need to know the height and weight dimensions of their trucks, and they need to know that drivers require eight hours of sleep per day.

I still have a flip-phone too. I like not having to pay $45/mo for mobile telecommunications and I like not giving my privacy away. I don't belong to Facebook, Twitter, either. I'll probably never, ever have those two snoopy eavesdropping bitches Suri or Alexia in my house, too.

Understood, but you DO know how to operate a personal computer, yes?
That was all I was getting at, the computer illiteracy of many "persons of a certain age" who are currently holding elected office at a congressional level or higher.

It is all part of what used to be referred to as our "digital divide" and as it turns out, it's not just an economic divide, it's also divide defined by age. There are plenty of senior citizens who are computer savvy but sadly, there are plenty who never were and never intend to be.
And it is also a divide bounded by some very strange belief systems as well, too. There are those who are convinced that our current high tech will destroy the human race.
Well...it might, but we might destroy ourselves by other means before it ever gets the chance.

Funny thing just popped into my mind:
As much of a motorhead as I happen to be, my son cannot distinguish one type of vehicle from another. A red car is a red car and a brown car is a brown car...that's it as far as he's concerned.

It's not because of a lack of awareness or education.
Karen was a Navy diesel mechanic and I grew up as a motorhead so he could have easily become one by osmosis.
It just doesn't float his boat, that's all.
He couldn't care less, and I think that's probably how it is for our older non-computer folks.
It's an "evil TV set with a keyboard" as far as they are concerned.

Daryl says that all cars are just wheels with boxes, to him.

I believe my RR posts are pretty legible, my links always work, and sometimes I include piccys. I'm good in that department.

So your continued ownership of a flip phone, in your case, is not a sign of computer illiteracy at all.
But...you're a rarity.
Most times, when still seen today, it's a sign that a person's enthusiasm for new tech ground to a halt a generation ago or that they can't afford an upgrade.

My recently departed Aunt stayed firmly in the vacuum tube and rotary dial era till her last day.

(the phone in the basement)



She could afford an upgrade.
She had no intention of ever doing so.

I still have one hanging on the wall in the kitchen.

Sure I could even get a kick out of having one here just for giggles.
But are all your phones of this vintage?

LOL

I have been wireless since 2000. It was my mother's phone. The hard line had degraded until there was nothing but static when I switched her to wireless.

How did she press '1' for English?

She used her middle finger?

She didn't.
Rick I swear to you she still has a Zenith picture tube TV sitting in the living room of her house in Atlantic Beach, Long Island.

She refused to get a digital HDTV set because she saw no reason to spend the money. She only reluctantly got the converter box, and that's all.

That TV dates back to the Bush41 administration or before.

They used to build things to last...

I have a flip phone, but it's because I think spending $100 per month so you can watch movies on a screen suitable for ants is idiotic. If I want to watch TV or movies, I have a 40" TV connected to Netflix and the internet, and a laptop with a great big monitor on my desk.

I had an android phone but this one I have now costs me $15 per month!

It's funny because I have actually worked on a lot of this technology. Not "with it", but developing the software inside the cell phone and modem chips. But personally, there are several hi-tech things I just never wanted. Never played video games, either, though I have been messing with computers since about 1968.

I've even considered going back to a 2G phone of some kind but I still find myself, NOT WATCHING movies, but instead looking up stuff on the internet when I need to, taking pictures from time to time when I don't have the camera handy, so I still need the expanded capabilities of a 4G unit.
But I am not paying anywhere near a hundred a month, more like 35 a month.

Look guys, I didn't mean to sound mean by singling out flip-phone users just to belittle the use of flip-phones.
I was saying that we can't afford to elect people for whom mastering a smartphone is a daunting obstacle.

For people of that mindset, mastering new tech is so unthinkable that some of them have resorted to hiring staff just to do it for them, and some others have resorted to unethical and potentially illegal practices to get around it.

You guys aren't on the wrong side of the digital divide due to hidebound ignorance, you're on the lower side by choice and by virtue of simple pragmatism.
You're computer savvy. I'm convinced that the Hillarys, Bidens and Trumps of this world...ain't.

I'm like you, all I have is a flip phone. I wouldn't even have that if my daughter hadn't gave it to me so the wife could call me at Ft. McPherson and tell me to get milk and bread from the Commissary.

When I'm outside or working, doing something, the last thing I want is a phone call unless it's an emergency. If I want to watch TV, I go inside and turn on the TV. If I want to mess with the computer, I'll go inside and turn the computer on. If I want to watch movies, I can do that on the TV and on the computer. I love watching old 1950's scifi and horror flicks along with the old TV westerns of the same decade.

I'm probably about as old fashioned as one can get.

OK Boomers! Fly your Luddite flags proudly. And vote for more Luddites to lead us back into the past!

I embrace all forms of new technology.

MY android phone costs me $12.73 a month. I can text, email, read the news, read a book, watch porn or even make a phone call...but who actually makes phone calls anymore?

OK, Boomers do.

If I need to really ... talk ... to someone, I meet them tête-à-tête.

You really want to know what modern tech I think about giving up even more?
My 2007 Prius hybrid, that's what!

I bought it back in 2012 when I was still putting in between 50 and 200 miles round trip every day. Now, thanks to my bad eyesight and hearing, I am pretty much a "retired" film editor and a "retired" DP, so it's a shock if I put more than 250 miles a MONTH on that car, and by the way, that use profile is HORRIBLE for a Prius, especially for the HV traction battery.

I just don't need that car anymore and it's about as fun to drive as a Roomba, or it would be if I was a cat. It's not even AS fun as riding on a Roomba.
And I just know my sparse use profile is killing the hybrid battery anyway.

I'd be happy with a little scooter or some ancient used mini-pickup or some old heap for my little trips back and forth to the grocery and hardware store.
We have Karen's van for serious long trips.

Trade it in and get a used Leaf. They are no-gas plug-ins that can go about 120 miles on a new battery. If you get an old one, they have less range. But plenty for your needs. They are cheap. I see 2011 and 2012 Leafs going for about what you can get for your 2007 Prius.

I've been considering it but I think once again, since I don't do any regular commutes, it's probably more than I need.
All I really need is to get to the supermarket and the drug store.
That's like maybe two or three miles away.
I am betting a nice scooter would fit the bill fine. We have perfect scooter weather most of the time.

Old fat Italian on a Vespa! What could be more classic.

I checked for ya...they make fedora bike helmets!

You forgot the Hawaiian shirt, plaid Bermuda knee-length shorts, sandals with black socks, and smoking a stogie or a large blunt.

You forgot my SUMMER riding outfit!

Oh by the way!!
I did peak at just shy of 250 pounds but as of this morning, yours truly is weighing in at 208.
In the next thirty days I shall be under 200 pounds. I think I will even venture a number next week.
I would very much like to hit 185 but I will be satisfied with 190.

Tight 'n Tasty!

And at bedtime?

So, what's your secret?

I just stopped eating "my three meals a day" and went back to the eating habits I used to have as a single guy.
Karen and I had gotten so used to making dinner for the kids, but our kids are grown now, they are adults.
So I told Karen, do not feel obligated to be "Mommy making din din every night" because these young adults know how to shop and how to cook for themselves.

Essential to understanding Republican talking points.

A Dozen Questions for John Solomon

At this point, trying to get Trump fluffers to accept facts is akin to stirring a pot of boiling spaghetti and seeing Pennywise the Clown and The Tidy Bowl Man rowboating around the noodles while they blow each other.
It is hard to be prepared for the level of bubble deafness you encounter, and you begin to hallucinate.

Working class Republicans are about the most gullible folks to ever walk the planet, bless their hearts. They'll believe anything a rich man tells them. You've gotta kinda feel sorry for 'em. Because the aims and goals of The Party are anathema to the working class.
Aims and goals of the DNC aren't much different but at least Democrats know they're getting screwed.

>Working class Republicans:

"Donald Trump is a stupid man's idea of a smart person, a poor man's idea of a rich man, and a weak man's idea of a strong man." Apocryphal Quote

I think that sums it up pretty well.

https://apnews.com/f836decb6f2444fcb897df27279aa345

[quote]But he repeated his assertion that Ukrainians might have hacked the Democratic National Committee’s network in 2016 and framed Russia for the crime, a theory his own advisers have dismissed.[/quyote]

:lol:

I just thought that bore repeating. It describes "the base" perfectly.

the base ... hmmm

just had a "conversation" with a Trump supporter. I happened to overhear him saying something to the effect it is a waste of money for Democrats to investigate Mr Trump because the Senate will acquit him. So I had to ask ... does he believe you should allow any elected official to run criminal organizations from their elected office? His response was everyone does it, as if that justifies corruption. He immediately went to Pres Obama and said he was corrupt, so I had to ask, what crime did he commit? Then came the pivot ... he was "queer" .... I say whaaaa? Not enough he continued by saying Michelle Obama is a man. I say double whaaaa? Of course he interjected Pres Obama was not born in America.

I mean do ya get the picture. Where is Senator Hatrack? He needs to talk to these people because it is hard for me to believe this guy was serious in his belief.

Yes the Trump Base is as ignorant as a box of rocks and there is no point in even trying to discuss anything with them.

I mean his proof was ... there are no pictures of Michelle pregnant ... o and one of her fingers was the wrong length so she is definitely a man

Yes and these are the people who are voting for Mr Trump.

Kylie Griffin on Twitter



Russia Inquiry Review Is Said to Criticize F.B.I. but Rebuff Claims of Biased Acts



So the Ukraine hoax is now a known case of Russian GRU espionage level agitprop, Nunes is implicated in the Giuliani scheme and the entire deep state CT is now exposed as a total fraud.

There isn't a toilet large enough in the entire galaxy for a bucket of turds this size.
But there are cages large enough to house a couple hundred compromised Congressmen and Senators. We know there are because they're the ones who paid for them with our money.

This is the future I was promised.

The handcuffs are going to come out for a good many Republican Congressmen and Senators.

"Handcuff them? Who's going to do that? Barr? You're kidding yourself!"

I am beginning to get a gut feeling Barr will be in handcuffs as well.
It is very likely that, on a sunny and humid day in Washington DC in 1973, more than a few people were asking themselves,
"Handcuff them? Who's going to do that? John N. Mitchell? You're kidding yourself!"

And yet, as we certainly remember...



It took some time but the fact that he was indeed charged, arrested, tried, convicted and incarcerated shows that it is still possible for the arc of justice to bend toward the truth. So okay, Barr himself might TRY to prevent arrests, but he must know that at some point they're going to come for him.
And this time, it may even be sooner rather than later because this is no longer a case of just breaking into an office anymore.
This is much much larger than the Watergate break-in.

And Lev Parnas' upcoming testimony may actually lead to toppling one of the biggest criminal conspiracy dominoes underneath Barr, Republican Ranking Member Devin Nunes.

Not to mention, once the smoke clears from the wreckage of former President Trump's administration, Barr may also be charged as a criminal co-conspirator or at the very least, a criminally negligent accessory in the murder of Jeffrey Epstein, too.
Right at this present time Barr certainly will have built firewalls around that but those firewalls will evaporate like a marshmalow in a cyclotron precisely on November 3rd, 2020.
And he will be naked, and afraid.

#TRE45ON

According to CNN, Lev Parnas' lawyer Joseph Bondy, that Parnas is willing to testify before Congress that Nunes met with “a former Ukrainian prosecutor to discuss digging up dirt on Joe Biden."

A 100-page trove of State Department documents was released on Friday to the nonpartisan watchdog group American Oversight. The documents, which were part of a FOIA lawsuit for all Trump administration dealings on Ukraine, include multiple emails of Pompeo’s call schedule, showing the nation’s top diplomat holding calls with Giuliani - just like Gordy Sondland testified to at Wednesday's Congressional hearing.

Don't get your hopes up, pard'ner. Even if they were, a whole new crop of them are waiting in the wings. Most of these investigations will blow over and the rest will be handled by the many corrupt judges being appointed in record numbers by an equally corrupt Senate.

2020 will give us a temporary course change, we'll be able to slap a few bandaids on a few wounds before Republicans take the helm again.
Then we'll do it all over again.

OK ... I sloshed the facts over my brain for a quick readout and it doesn't compute ... yet.

Rep Nunes has been working the Biden Gambit for a while, dating back probably to May 2018. So why would Mr Trump conspire with Giuliani to work the Gambit through Ukraine? Was this a 2 pronged attack? One working strictly from private sources, the other using government resources?

Maybe the Nunes Initiative got nowhere in the private sphere and Mr Trump decided VP Biden represented a greater danger to his occupation early this year to wait on private dirt. This was the only quick synapses firing result.

Maybe someone has a different perspective?

That's correct. The quid pro quo was initiated on two front: US Diplomatic channels and Trump's private back-door channels through Rudy Colludy.

Amb. Yovanovitch stood in the way of Trump's own corruption that he sent Giuliani over to Ukraine to further. Trump initially had his corrupt Ukrainian official, prosecutor general Yuri Lutsenko, but Lutsenko lost his job and Trump had to start over.

THAT is why Amb. Yovanovich had to go, she stood in the way of Trump's Plan B which was to get to the newly-elected President of Ukraine to publicly state an investigation into the Biden's AND to clear Russia of the US Intel Community's fact-finding evidence that Russia DID interfere in our 2016 election.

The pressure that Trump asserted on Ukraine President Z was to withhold the Javelins that Congress approved in February 2019 and the DoD certified in May 2019 as having met the corruption reform threshold to be awarded the aid.

Ooops, looks like Devin is going to the Greybar Hotel, along with the rest:

Nunes’ Meeting With Ex-Ukraine Official



Trump really IS draining the swamp... by getting all the swap monsters sent to prison!

I dont think this timeline is accurate.

Lutsenko resigned as Prosecutor General in Nov 2018. He first talked to Giuliani in Jan 2019. However Lutsenko had previously cast some aspersions on Hunter Biden in regard to Burisma. Lutsenko met with Giuliani in Feb 2019 and later one more time briefly in Europe. By May 2019 Lutsenko had changed his story by saying he believed Hunter Biden had not broken an Ukrainian laws.

Of course by May 2019 the Ukraine Gambit was in full deployment, having successfully deposed the recalcitrant Ambassador.

I have not finalized a conclusion on whether Mr Trump believes the Ukraine Conspiracy narrative or he uses it as a pretext for useful political dirty works against VP Biden. One may point to the last move in the Gambit i.e. just get the announcement , as proof that was all he wanted. As a narcissist he would almost have to believe he won the election all on his very own, without any help from the Russians, and any story which represents the Russians actually helping would be met with derision and hypercritical tweeting.

Any chance to undermine the prevailing narrative from the IC and MSM the Russians not only meddled in the election but helped him win the election would play directly into his delusion. It is easy to figure out and explain the why of his actions but more difficult to find the predicating framework which inspires his delusions.

Devin Nunes was already working the "get dirt on Biden" in the Fall of 2018 for Trump.

Lutsenko is all over the map, so I don't know what to believe about him. He may just be working the system to get the dough.

Has anyone ever questioned the irony of the liberal class righteous indignation or unquestioning rightward drift taking place as it loses their mind over Trump occupying the whitehouse?
I mean, has anyone even heard them question the wisdom of supplying weapons to a former soviet state gone hard right to begin with? A government rewriting the role of their fascist death squads during ww2 now recognized as national hero’s by the current government?
I know Trump bad and all that but have the libs ever questioned the wisdom of arming neonazis, they are so offended withholding military aid from, that it has ignited their impeachment quest?
Has any brain broke liberal asked these questions?

I just wonder how far Libs have wandered into impeachment Narnia, do they even recognize how they are now supporting fascists in the Ukraine as well as other places in the world.

Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine

Note the date of publication.

Ignoring Libya and Syria, what could go wrong?

Two different issues.

Regardless of the context, should any president abuse the public trust, they should be held accountable.

Support for regimes which do not comport with American values and ideals is a separate question. There is a level of complexity associated with probably most of these type countries which involves an extensive discussion. In the case of Ukraine, one can easily see they are on the front line of an aggressive nation state which is our political enemy. Should we simply allow Russia to use the Sudetenland Ruse to encroach on western europe. I suspect these are tough choices (to most folks except perhaps Mr Trump).

Yes, it is two separate issues.
It’s revealing, though, which one has been the most important.

It’s been said we live in a post truth world now. You could also say we’ve been living in a context free world.

The case of impeachment has always been a sketchy one with no discussion at all about wether it’s been wise to charge him with liberal debate squad infractions when there’s been plenty of real crimes he’d been guilty of. Setting aside the choices libs have made here and why, I don’t recall any one raising the question of what we’re doing in the Ukraine in the first place.
We’re over there at Russia’s door step.
We were not supposed to expand NATO up to their borders when the wall came down. I even remember the debates over wether Russia would be made a member of the EU back in the nineties.
Now we have actually placed military on the traditional invasion routes into Russia after American hedge funds went into the country, stripped out its public goods and assets thru privatization, caused massive hardships thru neoliberal austerity and basically helped turn the country into a mafia state.
Now libs are pretending that the Ukraine is some bastion of democracy we’re supporting with weaponry.
Say what you want about the president and the incompetent criminality of the administration, but you could also argue the Libs being equally criminal with their framing of arguments and willingness to support fascist regimes.
Again, libs live in a brain broke, context free, reactionary world.
Wild to watch them throw in with fascists.

Ukraine...The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

We cannot directly wage war on Russia. They cannot directly wage war on us...But we can arm their neighbors and get a little quid pro quo in the bargain...they can interfere in our elections and make a little cash in the bargain...Vlad gotta be laughin' his ass off over all this.

My guess is Vlad is aware of his history and has been very troubled with the military posture and location of the US.

Who wouldn’t?

Who are the enemies of Brazil, Venezuela and Bolivia that we’ve supported Christian Right wing neonazis over there (inconvenient to point out) more leftists democratically elected governments?

No, libs are truly in Narnia when it comes to these events and our bipartisan involvement with them.

I heard either Hedges or Frank remark that the Weimar German liberal class was the most read and edjucated in Europe. It’s worth mentioning that, when push came to shove then and now, the classic liberal position is a reactionary rightward direction.

Some historical context

There's never really been much difference between the parties as far as global politics is concerned, not really that much difference in domestic policy either.

One of the parties might be marginally better than the other.

My goal in the near future is to get that party into power then hold their toes to the fire to make them better than they are now and better than they have been. It may be futile but I can hope.

A few years ago that was pretty much the case, but now one of the Parties has Trump leading them into mutual psychosis. Getting back to reality is going to be very painful for them after Trump goes full-on bonkers.

One party?

Again, there is no context anymore but you can comment on the immediate for now, and I see the liberal class as having equally lost their minds by challenging the president from the right.

This framing of Russia as an aggressor when we have broken pledges (no surprise here) and pushed narratives that are weak and flimsy at best and dangerous worst of all could be seen as mentally unstable.
We are now in a new atomic arms race with Russia with the weapons makers cheering it o and there has been crickets about this.

We have drastically reduced launch response time with the drive for faster missle speed and AI monitoring. No discussion.

We have other countries interfering far more than Russia that's visible and palpable in our politics that goes unreported.

We have ringed an extremely dangerous country with our military and Navy but Libs are calling them the aggressor country?

We have armed reactionary, fascist elements in countries past and present to overthrow democratically elected governments, while the rending of clothes and nashing of teeth goes on in the Liberal camps over 'the threats to Democracy'.

Here's Pozner giving his assessment to the current U.S./Russian relationship and how we've arrived here. A conversation at Yale university in 2018.

He gives much needed context and I agree with his assessment with the lack of any progress being made here due to the older generations' biases and propaganda exposure.