First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/06/20 08:17 PM

Okay so now that Bernie Sanders is potentially teeing up to be in the lead, or so it seems, there's worries as to how Donald Trump would attack him, yes?
So, what are the big worries about Bernie anyway?

Hmmmm, when he was a young man in his thirties or so, he wrote a bunch of raunchy stuff for fifty cents a word, back in the day when Playboy was running "The Happy Hooker" and National Lampoon was featuring raunch by no less than conservative pundit P.J. O'Rourke, and Larry Flynt was stretching the envelope over at Hustler Magazine.

He was a socialist mayor who propped up the Soviets back when we were on the brink of Glasnost, and he does have a few pet ideals that even a lot of lefties think are ridiculous and which are guaranteed to sink like a rock in Congress, like voting rights for convicted violent felons in prison and free healthcare for illegals.

But let me know when Bernie sexually assaults someone, mocks the disabled, tears a child from their parents, pays off a porn star, insults a gold star family, calls nazis fine people, denies science, steals from a charity, or starts a fake university.

Oh wait, his wife has something in her closet about a college...
what was it?

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
According to 2017 news reports, the FBI was looking into allegations of possible bank fraud in connection with a $10 million loan Sanders helped Burlington College obtain in 2010 to purchase 33 acres of land from the Roman Catholic Diocese of Burlington. The investigation was launched after complaints were filed with the FBI in 2016 by Brady Toensing, chair of the Vermont Republican Party and Vermont campaign manager for then-candidate Donald Trump. His complaints alleged she had misrepresented the college's donor levels and pledges in the loan application. Bernie Sanders described the allegations by Trump's former campaign manager in Vermont as politically motivated and "nonsense". As of June 2017, Jane Sanders had retained counsel while the FBI investigated the matter.

On November 13, 2018, the U.S. Attorney in Vermont closed its investigation of the college land deal involving her and decided not to bring charges.


Brady Toensing? Is that Victoria Toensing's hubby? The lady who pals around with Rudy Giuliani?
Yeah sure, bring on the Jane Sanders investigation! That would be fun!

What else? Commie commie commie? Red baiting? Have fun with that!

Anyone else have anything they think Bernie needs to get ahead of before it bursts out of Trump's chest like a seething pus-filled boil?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/06/20 11:53 PM

He’s not a Democrat
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 02:04 AM

Quote:
Sanders actually has many of the trappings of a unity candidate--he’s well known, he’s well liked by the rank-and-file, and his unwavering message has become a staple of party rhetoric even in the boardroom wing of the party. Most important of all, he actually has a message. Of everyone else in the race, only Warren has offered an actual reason for running. The two make similar cases: The U.S. economy and the U.S. political system are stacked against working people. It’s a good message, because it’s true.

Everyone else in the field, meanwhile, is offering an increasingly unpersuasive version of “I alone can beat Trump!” These candidates have little to say, because they aren’t targeting voters, they’re auditioning for donors. The real message isn’t “I can win,” it’s “I’ll make sure you’re still in charge.”
Link

If you ask me it's the other candidates who need to get ahead of what Sanders has done to them.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 02:24 AM

Quote:
He’s not a Democrat


Eh, close enough. Romney seems to be the last Republican left in the Senate. So Bernie would be running against fascists. Everybody left of Romney has to be close enough that everybody there should support him or her.

Besides, President Sanders could not create progressive legislation by himself. That's not a President's job. All he could do is sign or veto bills congress sends him, and congress is just not going to be far from the mainstream.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 04:23 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
He’s not a Democrat


Eh, close enough.


Tom Perez promised he wasn't going to use the Debbie Schultz model.
I am starting to doubt him, though.

So, now that I am beginning to doubt his sincerity, I've reached the point where "proving you're a Democrat" is clearly a fool's errand because it is starting to sound like it's whatever Tom Perez says it is and I don't think that is very "democratic".

So okay, Bernie is a Democrat, he's NOT a Democrat...you know what?
It was foolish for me to EVER rationalize Bernie's fate in 2016 due to DNC rules because I was too dumb to realize that the DNC's rules are as consistent and solid as a bowl of Jell-O.

Whoever told me a year or two back that it shouldn't matter if he's "officially" a Dem or not was 100 percent right.
I don't give a flying frack if he's "officially" a Dem.
He's right for the party, and the party better wake up and catch up...

...because they're not going to stop what's coming.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 02:38 PM

The mask is coming off the Democratic Party. Iowa was the opening salvo.
As Sanders continues to resonate with the voters he becomes more of a threat to the fortunes of the political establishment.

Yes, Tom Perez is trying to fix the Convention. Hillaries people were involved in the Iowa Shadow app. California is trying to impose primary rules to bar independents from the primary elections.

The s*** hogs and piss pigs are in full force and on display. I’ve said it many times before, the party power structure, consisting of hack consultants, lobbyists, fail sons and daughters and, most importantly, corporate donors, would rather keep their state rooms and go down with the ship than allow any leftist candidate to win the nomination.

They will burn it to the ground before they ever hit an unemployment line. They are what’s keeping good things from happening. Not the fascists in the Republican Party. They’re just enabled by the democrats.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
He’s not a Democrat


Eh, close enough. Romney seems to be the last Republican left in the Senate. So Bernie would be running against fascists. Everybody left of Romney has to be close enough that everybody there should support him or her.


You'd think.

I will be voting for "the candidate" in November, but I gotta say, there's a large segment of Sanders voters that make me not want to do that. I'm still going to.

My general impression is that the Bro sector of his vote go after the DNC because they lack the guts to go after Trump.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 03:31 PM

For decades the left has been hectored to vote for the right wing candidate.

It's amusing now that the party has to bend the knee to the left it comes down to the 'Bernie Bro' right wing Hillary smear.

Our revolution is not trying to convince. It moves around your kind of false criticism.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
For decades the left has been hectored to vote for the right wing candidate.

It's amusing now that the party has to bend the knee to the left it comes down to the 'Bernie Bro' right wing Hillary smear.

Our revolution is not trying to convince. It moves around your kind of false criticism.



That's good, because nobody wants to be convinced by wreckers.

You can be Holy™ all by yourselves.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 05:26 PM

Quote:
My general impression is that the Bro sector of his vote go after the DNC because they lack the guts to go after Trump.


It doesn't take any guts to go after Trump. Everybody in the free world is going after Trump.

But nobody has the guts to go after the corporatist right-wing DNC but the social democrats.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 06:48 PM

Its true he isn't a Democrat, he is a self proclaimed Socialist. If he actually gets the nod that will paint the entire Democratic party as socialists. This will lose the election to Trump unless the Dems get VERY lucky. Oh, he has also refused to join the Democratic party.

All that being said I will vote for him, holding my nose................

Should also note that there is a socialist party he could (and probably should) run under. Its called the Socialist Party of America.

Should also wonder why in the hell he is running as a Democrat as he refuses to join them and is NOT a Democrat!
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 07:10 PM

Quote:
President Sanders could not create progressive legislation by himself. That's not a President's job. All he could do is sign or veto bills congress sends him, and congress is just not going to be far from the mainstream.

Is that all that President Trump has done? Sign and veto bills? Apparently the president has a lot more power than we ever imagined. Perhaps we owe Republicans a debt of gratitude for showing us this.

President Sanders will inherit the most presidential power of any president in our history. Courtesy of the Republicans. And they have proven in court that those powers can not be abused.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 07:29 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Its true he isn't a Democrat, he is a self proclaimed Socialist. If he actually gets the nod that will paint the entire Democratic party as socialists. This will lose the election to Trump unless the Dems get VERY lucky. Oh, he has also refused to join the Democratic party.

All that being said I will vote for him, holding my nose................

Should also note that there is a socialist party he could (and probably should) run under. Its called the Socialist Party of America.

Should also wonder why in the hell he is running as a Democrat as he refuses to join them and is NOT a Democrat!


Why on Earth would he do that when there's a functioning, well-funded party that already exists as a political force, and has non-entities as existing candidates?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
My general impression is that the Bro sector of his vote go after the DNC because they lack the guts to go after Trump.


It doesn't take any guts to go after Trump. Everybody in the free world is going after Trump.

But nobody has the guts to go after the corporatist right-wing DNC but the social democrats.



Yeah maybe so but going after the corporatist faux right-wing DNC is a fool's errand when we're still stuck under the thumb of a tyrant who is threatening to install a dictatorship.

Thus I disagree that going after Trump is easy.
If it was easy, then he'd already be in the rearview mirror a long time ago.
Easy my foot, it's been almost impossible, and not solely due to faux right-wing sympathies of the corporatist DNC either.
Trump intends to make our very elections themselves a thing of the past.
Trump can and WILL "shoot people on 5th Avenue, and get away with it".
Stop saying "It can't happen here" because it is happening here, and the opposition eating itself is exactly what he and The Kremlin want.

And it's partly because there IS a lack of guts in going after Trump, because the only effective way TO go after him is from a position of unity and with enough strength in numbers.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

Yeah maybe so but going after the corporatist faux right-wing DNC is a fool's errand when we're still stuck under the thumb of a tyrant who is threatening to install a dictatorship.


This is why I wonder if I've been taking Goddamn crazy pills.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Its true he isn't a Democrat, he is a self proclaimed Socialist. If he actually gets the nod that will paint the entire Democratic party as socialists. This will lose the election to Trump unless the Dems get VERY lucky. Oh, he has also refused to join the Democratic party.

All that being said I will vote for him, holding my nose................

Should also note that there is a socialist party he could (and probably should) run under. Its called the Socialist Party of America.

Should also wonder why in the hell he is running as a Democrat as he refuses to join them and is NOT a Democrat!


The party he would join isn't SPA, it's DSA, Democratic Socialists of America and when he announced in 2016, they yawned and accused him of "not being a real socialist" and went back to sleep.

And they haven't exactly burned down any barns supporting him this time around either.

Not a word about him, not today, not yesterday, not last month, and there won't be a word about him tomorrow, or in November.

DSA link

Like I said, I was WRONG about that whole "he's not a real Democrat" business. First Debbie Schultz made an idiot out of me because I thought rules were rules, and now Tom Perez is doing almost the same thing but in a different manner, which doesn't matter because the net result is the same.

So, far as I'm concerned, Bernie is a Democrat.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 09:08 PM

Quote:
Its true he isn't a Democrat, he is a self proclaimed Socialist. If he actually gets the nod that will paint the entire Democratic party as socialists.


I think a better way of saying it is that the majority of Democratic voters want the Democratic Party to become more socialist!

It's been a long long time since the government threw the working man a bone and most of your voters gonna be working men and women who are sick of getting whisked under the rug the instant the voting is over.

It's what you might call a social movement.

I think it's very exciting!
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 09:27 PM

Quote:
Yeah maybe so but going after the corporatist faux right-wing DNC is a fool's errand when we're still stuck under the thumb of a tyrant who is threatening to install a dictatorship.

The old fool in the White House now is a petty tyrant who will be gone soon. Dictators need to start younger than Mr. Trump.

So is it best just to let The Party choose who our next candidates should be? Let the DNC change the party purity rules as they go along?
Interfere in elections? All to get the most right wing candidate on the ticket nominated and elected? The Party always has to have its toes held to the fire.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/07/20 11:30 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Its true he isn't a Democrat, he is a self proclaimed Socialist. If he actually gets the nod that will paint the entire Democratic party as socialists. This will lose the election to Trump unless the Dems get VERY lucky. Oh, he has also refused to join the Democratic party.

All that being said I will vote for him, holding my nose................

Should also note that there is a socialist party he could (and probably should) run under. Its called the Socialist Party of America.

Should also wonder why in the hell he is running as a Democrat as he refuses to join them and is NOT a Democrat!


Look at our kids. Nobody born after 1993 has even the foggiest notion what any Blue Dog or "moderate centrist" is talking about.
The reason is, they've NEVER KNOWN what our capitalist system felt like and worked like.
All they know, as adults now, is the Newt travesty, the Hastert Rule, 9/11, the 2007-8 meltdown, Obama being systematically denied even his constitutional right to lead, the Tea Party, lack of healthcare, higher education that costs as much as a Lamborghini, and Trump.
At this rate, they will never know what owning their own home feels like. They will never know the prosperity we grew up with prior to the 1980's.

So the moderates and centrists can get as hysterical as they want about "socialism" but when our kids hear it, it sounds like something that is a whole helluva lot more fair than what they've known their entire adult lives.

So they don't give a rat's ass about the hysteria, and the moderates and centrists only have themselves to blame because they stood back these last thirty-five years and hung their heads in shame and tried to appease Newt, Dennis, Bush and Trump and all the weaponized GOP operatives instead of fighting for what's right and just and fair.

And I don't blame these kids when they tell the moderates to go shove it up their bung-holes. Why would they feel any different?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 12:31 AM

Footnotes from Trump's America:

Dayton Kingery, a Connecticut native and student at Orange County's Chapman University, went on an expletive filled rant about "faggots and niggers" in class, and then when expelled by fellow students, grabbed another student's backpack and stomped on it, destroying the laptop inside. He was then arrested and booked on suspicion of making criminal threats and felony vandalism, and is no longer enrolled as a student at Chapman.
Occupy Democrats video
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 01:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
President Sanders will inherit the most presidential power of any president in our history. Courtesy of the Republicans. And they have proven in court that those powers can not be abused.

That is a very interesting observation.

I expect that of all the Dem candidates, Bernie is the only one who would use that power to poke the dishonest Reeps in the eye! Followed by (I hope) using that power to cause a permanent banishment of the President ever having the ability to acquire such power again...
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 01:15 AM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Greger
President Sanders will inherit the most presidential power of any president in our history. Courtesy of the Republicans. And they have proven in court that those powers can not be abused.

That is a very interesting observation.

I expect that of all the Dem candidates, Bernie is the only one who would use that power to poke the dishonest Reeps in the eye! Followed by (I hope) using that power to cause a permanent banishment of the President ever having the ability to acquire such power again...


He would still have to elicit cooperation from Congress to do that.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 01:36 AM

Let's give him a left wing Congress, then!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 01:41 AM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Let's give him a left wing Congress, then!


Well you KNOW I'm more than okay with that.
I just hope enough people take the time to do the same.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 02:32 AM

A Democratic-majority in both Houses of Congress may not do much progressive stuff, but they will certainly cooperate with anything President Sanders wants to do to Republicans. Remember, if Democrats win, the AG will be a Democrat too. Democrats will have to turn this back into a Nation of Laws, by prosecuting all the documented crimes of the Trump administration and Republicans who were in this congress.

Actually, Sanders would not have to do anything but appoint a guy with a lot of prosecutor experience as AG. Then Sanders can stand back and say: "We don't prosecute opponents just for being in opposition. But actual crimes need to be prosecuted."

People need to see crimes being prosecuted and criminals going to prison, or in the future everybody will act just like Trump et al. If I was Trump, I would be looking around to figure out where I want to go visit forever that doesn't have an extradition treaty with us.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 04:03 PM

What I like about the tech revolution is it's had a leveling effect on the media that had never existed before. No longer needing to mortgage your house to make your low budget indie film or beg the studios. Ditto with talk shows.
The production costs have come down dramatically with improvements in technology and it's a great political time for indie film makers to get some attention and display their film making chops.
We no longer have to take Madison avenue's version of events or reality. The risk of total incoherence is there as well as manipulation but street level stuff always has a particular authenticity to it.

A nice lil 7 minute documentary that helps expose the B.S. of the political narratives past and present that simplified the loss of the upper midwest.



Sanders has the lagest support amongst women, Latino's and now African Americans than any other candidate.

Yet the racial, misogynistic 'white Bernie Bro' now shortened to 'Bernie Bro' is back again. Here and elsewhere....


Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
What I like about the tech revolution is it's had a leveling effect on the media that had never existed before. No longer needing to mortgage your house to make your low budget indie film or beg the studios. Ditto with talk shows.
The production costs have come down dramatically with improvements in technology and it's a great political time for indie film makers to get some attention and display their film making chops.
We no longer have to take Madison avenue's version of events or reality. The risk of total incoherence is there as well as manipulation but street level stuff always has a particular authenticity to it.

A nice lil 7 minute documentary that helps expose the B.S. of the political narratives past and present that simplified the loss of the upper midwest.



Sanders has the lagest support amongst women, Latino's and now African Americans than any other candidate.

Yet the racial, misogynistic 'white Bernie Bro' now shortened to 'Bernie Bro' is back again. Here and elsewhere....


Actually it seems like the "Bro" segment is shrinking as Bernie's support begins to widen. And that was the original purpose for my putting up this thread, both here AND elsewhere on other forums.
I wanted to really know if the so called "Bros" were as ubiquitous and universal as has been hyped.
And it doesn't look like they are more than a small fraction of Bernie's overall base in 2020, as my polls elsewhere show that about ninety percent of those supporting Bernie don't fit the category.

And I am expecting that the same results will show in this poll when it ends.
Yes, my whole point was to tamp down all the toxic accusations of "Bernie Bros" cropping up everywhere.
I believe it was an early and volatile phenomenon, and that eventually Bernie's support would become more universal and homogenized.

I think Bernie's bigger problem is getting the DNC to play by the rules, not his tiny so-called "Bro" segment.

The tech revolution and the democratization of media has had the usual disruptive effects, both plus and minus. Sure, of course folks have better access to the tools but it also means that pure whack jobs have the same access, thus the Flat Earthers, anti-vaxxers, sovereign citizens and of course all the Trumper conspiracy theorists no longer occupy street corners handing out sweaty mimeographed tracts...they have the same democratized access everyone else has.



Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 06:26 PM

Quote:
Sanders has the largest support amongst women, Latino's and now African Americans than any other candidate.


Did you know that Sanders also has the largest support among the armed forces? Donations from active duty troops for Sanders is higher than all the other Democratic candidates combined and even higher than Trump. link

Polls are saying that Buttigieg is rising in popularity...maybe some of the single digit folks are losing support to him. At some point, all the other candidates will drop out. Warren has made a lot of pinkie promises that she's not gonna be able to keep.

National polls made promises to Biden that they aren't going to be able to keep.

And Biden's promise that only he can beat Trump are looking weaker by the moment, just like the man himself.

Bernie and Buttigieg wasn't the match up I saw coming. But it promises to be an interesting race.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 07:17 PM

Quote:
Bernie's bigger problem is getting the DNC to play by the rules, not his tiny so-called "Bro" segment


The DNC won't play by the rules and the more Trump-like they appear to the voters the worse it's going to look for them. Perez is sensitive to being compared to Wassermann-Schultz so he won't do anything directly. But the "Democratic Purity" crowd and Clinton operatives will be working hard to make the rules work better for some people than for others.

Have you noticed how loyal Bernie's supporters are? As he gains more of them they will also become loyalists. You couldn't write a better story! Elder Statesman who has been right along finally gets the recognition he deserves! Bernie could be just the populist hero that America needs to turn it from its unsustainable policies.

Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 07:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Sanders has the largest support amongst women, Latino's and now African Americans than any other candidate.


Did you know that Sanders also has the largest support among the armed forces? Donations from active duty troops for Sanders is higher than all the other Democratic candidates combined and even higher than Trump. link

Polls are saying that Buttigieg is rising in popularity...maybe some of the single digit folks are losing support to him. At some point, all the other candidates will drop out. Warren has made a lot of pinkie promises that she's not gonna be able to keep.

National polls made promises to Biden that they aren't going to be able to keep.

And Biden's promise that only he can beat Trump are looking weaker by the moment, just like the man himself.

Bernie and Buttigieg wasn't the match up I saw coming. But it promises to be an interesting race.


Since 5 Feb Buttigieg has jumped from 14% up to 22% according to RCP averages on the New Hampshire Primary. Sanders increased one point from 26 to 27. Biden has dropped from 18 down to 12 and Warren from 14 down to 12.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...imary-6276.html

Sanders is still the favorite in NH, but one should remember he was also the favorite in Iowa. An 8 point lead for Sanders became basically tie. But Iowa had so many problems, who knows what the real results were. If RCP is correct, Buttigieg has cut an 12 point Sanders lead down to 5 with a couple of days remaining.

Biden was the big loser in Iowa in my opinion and will be just a big loser in NH. Warren could be on her last gasp, especially with Nevada and South Carolina coming up which has a huge minority vote which Warren isn't doing well with. 14% support among blacks, 12% among Hispanics nationwide. Sanders has only 8% black support, but 28% among Hispanics. Biden has dropped within the last couple of weeks from 55% support among blacks down to 43%. He may be running out of gas also.

Biden still leads in Nevada, 3 over Sanders, 10 over Warren while in SC Biden leads Steyer by 13, Sanders by 14 and Warren by a whopping 22. As of today anyway.

In 2016 36% of Nevada's vote was non-white while in South Carolina, 57% was. The make up of minorities in these states may keep Biden alive. For awhile.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 07:40 PM

Wrong question. The real question would be why in the world would the democrats allow somebody to run as a socialist and refusing to join the Democratic party? This logic would allow, for instance, Hitler to also run as a Democrat. On top of that, should he win, he will then paint the entire Democratic party as Socialists.

Now add in the simple fact that he also wants to force large companies and all companies with stock on the markets to give 20% of their worth to their workers.

The above is also interesting. I remember when the owner of UPS gave the company to his employees. It wasn't too long before the employees who were not owners, and even some that were, went on strike against the greedy worker owners.

Does ANYBODY actually believe this could get through the congress? Any congress?

I, incidentally, am in favor of his health initiative but some of this stuff, not unlike Warren's stuff is simply not possible and gets a bit nuts. Much of it is what has brought down other socialist nations.

I will vote for him if he gets the nod but I will not be happy. I also doubt that he can win with his plans. You need the middle to win and the middle won't support a cast iron socialist. That's a simple and known fact. If he ran my only hope would be that he could swamp the congress with his people. I don't think that he would but maybe (better than nothing?)

I consider voting for Bernie to be wasting a vote. Unless, of course, you want Trump for another 4 years.

Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 08:47 PM

Hmmm...
My first Hitler/Sanders comparison spotted in the wild. I remember all the Obama as Hitler memes from a few years ago.

Anyway, here's another commerial developed, without permission I believe, for the sanders campaign. The horizontal nature of his campaign structure has made for some interesting displays of talent able to be showcased in nontraditional ways. If you haven't seen it already it's worth a watch. Reminds me of the 'Means of Production' crew from 2018.

I think the they did a good job with it, by the way.

Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 09:02 PM

I have a friend who told me Sanders is an interloper, an independent running for the Democratic nomination. He pointed out Sanders only became a Democrat just before the New Hampshire primary and immediately went back to being an independent right after the general election of 2016. He's still registered as an independent.

I wondered how many other Democrats think along his line. So I went to YouGov to see how those who affiliated or call themselves Democrats viewed the Candidates. Question 38. Democrats line up as this, Biden 29%, Warren 22% Sanders 15%. For all other Democratic candidates look at Question 38. Then independents who are planning on voting in the Democratic Primaries in open state primaries. Independents view the candidates differently. Sanders 28%, Biden 12%, Warren 12%.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...nTabReport.pdf

So maybe he has a point. More independents are backing Sanders than the party faithful. He is a Biden supporter which may have biased his view on Sanders as an interloper. But perhaps not. The numbers show Sanders fairly weak among rank and file Democrats, strong among independents who will be voting in the democratic primaries.

I think we need to remember than in 2016 Sanders won 59% of the independent vote who voted in the Democratic Primaries vs Hillary winning 65% of those rank and file Democrats, who make up the Democratic base. Is he right? I'm still not sure, but the numbers tend to point that he is.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 09:04 PM

ANd I will keep repeating myself.

"Bernie Bro' was a fiction. A smear campaign among many that came out of the 2016 primary election.

The pool of people that still believe in it, that is what's shrinking. Some sooner than others.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 09:29 PM

Turning over part ownership of corporations to the workers is really not all that unusual. I've had a lot of employee stock ownership plans during my career. It's an idea that a lot of company boards have embraced, as well as employee board seats.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/08/20 10:17 PM

Quote:
Now add in the simple fact that he also wants to force large companies and all companies with stock on the markets to give 20% of their worth to their workers.


Link Please?

Bernie has proposed a transaction tax on stock market trading. Liz proposed a 2% wealth tax. Those are simple facts.
Quote:
I consider voting for Bernie to be wasting a vote. Unless, of course, you want Trump for another 4 years.


Then by all means DON"T vote for him! Don't waste your vote! Personally I think it will be hilarious if the right wing of the Democratic Party stays home and costs Bernie the election! Poetic justice, Karma at its finest. I picture Michabou, Coyote, and Raven, rolling on their backs and laughing hysterically.

Loki's looking at his phone and laughing with them.

I'm okay with four more years of Trump. AOC might be old enough to run by then. It'll be easy to elect a progressive Democrat after eight years of Trump. We might do it right now after just four years.

You really oughta get over this unreasonable fear of social democracy.
Have you even looked at the proposed Scandinavian models Sanders would like us to emulate? Just Google ten happiest nations and look at their governments.

That's what I'm talkin' about! Places where government works for everybody.

It's within our grasp!
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/09/20 08:19 PM

You are right and that is a LOT different from forcing them to turn over 20% of their worth to "the workers" (which, as far as I can tell, and I can be wrong about this, is not all that well defined).

As an aside there were two businesses, where I live, that did that. One turned over a part and the other one turned over the whole thing. The whole thing completely failed and the owners had to take it back. The other continues to struggle (not unknown - Our current unemployed is 6% to 7% and that is regular)

However, under Bernie's plan gov will force it and do it. AS far as I am concerned that is a really slippery slope. I can't even think of a source for government funds that is not increased if gov can increase it. It is, basically, the plan for Socialist domination of ALL means of production. This is, basically, the goal of classic socialism. Always has been always will be. The secret, of course, is that DOES NOT WORK!

That is also the problem with most governments. They always tend to get too big for their britches and, when that happens, people get upset and things, eventually, change. The trick of good government is to maintain a middle stance, in most things, which is the most likely to be acceptable to the largest part of those being governed.

My apology. I didn't answer your questions (not paying attention)

Anyway, the 20% thing, here are two links:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...rnance-overhaul
https://berniesanders.com/issues/corporate-accountability-and-democracy/

That is also the problem with most governments. They always tend to get too big for their britches and, when that happens, people get upset and things, eventually, change. The trick of good government is to maintain a middle stance, in most things, which is the most likely to be acceptable to the largest part of those being governed.

I still think getting rid of Trump is THE most important thing, regardless of who gets the nod from the Dems. I think I have made it pretty clear that I am not a fan of Bernie OR Biden (they are just too freaking old!) but would vote for either if that was the choice. I am not convinced that we could stand another 4 more years of Trump. I also believe that, should he lose this year, he will not go silently or easily and could actually start a civil war. I think he is that dangerous (I am not alone).


I am for a small tax on all stock trades. Something like .020 (or even .010 of a cent) of a penny would do it. This would, basically, be a charge against those huge banks of computers that make millions of trades a day to skim very small amounts that really add up when you do it millions of times a day. This would also help to balance the stock market which I dabble in a bit (have averaged about 7% over the last 10 years and there are better ways to go and get a steady 10% but the buy is pretty bit). If you want close to 10% here is where you can get that (if you got the bucks and don't want to mess around)
https://assetbuilder.com/knowledge-center/articles/the-lessons-of-couch-potato-investing
https://assetbuilder.com/knowledge-center/articles/authors/scott-burns

A very small tax on trades would raise a LOT of money and those paying it would be the upper 10%. The rest of us wouldn't even notice the charge. Not only that but it would be constitutional (some of the wealth taxes being considered are not)



Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/09/20 09:48 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw


That is also the problem with most governments. They always tend to get too big for their britches and, when that happens, people get upset and things, eventually, change. The trick of good government is to maintain a middle stance, in most things, which is the most likely to be acceptable to the largest part of those being governed.


For the past fifteen years we have been watching as Republicans, then the Tea Party, and now Trump, have advocated shrinking the government until it could be "drowned in the bathtub".

I daresay it's been adequately "waterboarded" at this point.
Pendulums always swing back to zero first before they continue swinging in the other direction.
We are about as far to the right as we can possibly get before the pendulum breaks its hinges and careens off into radical fascism altogether and yet you're convinced that we're on the brink of near-communism.

Wow.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: jgw


That is also the problem with most governments. They always tend to get too big for their britches and, when that happens, people get upset and things, eventually, change. The trick of good government is to maintain a middle stance, in most things, which is the most likely to be acceptable to the largest part of those being governed.


For the past fifteen years we have been watching as Republicans, then the Tea Party, and now Trump, have advocated shrinking the government until it could be "drowned in the bathtub".

I daresay it's been adequately "waterboarded" at this point.
Pendulums always swing back to zero first before they continue swinging in the other direction.
We are about as far to the right as we can possibly get before the pendulum breaks its hinges and careens off into radical fascism altogether and yet you're convinced that we're on the brink of near-communism.

Wow.

I don't know if "too big for it's britches," is the right phrase. What happens is each new president and the members of their party always over reach or treat their election as a mandate. That causes huge loses in their first midterm. Perhaps because the voters just wanted to get rid of the old, were more angry at the old regime than angry at those out of power?

Look at the house losses during each president's first midterm
2018 Trump lost 40 seats
2010 Obama lost 63 seats
2002 Bush gained 8 seats, because of 9-11 united the people behind him and his party. But he lost 33 seats in his next midterm, 2006
1994 Bill Clinton lost 54 seats
1990 Bush Sr. lost 8 seats, but he had only 175 to begin with.
1982 Reagan lost 28 seats leaving him at 166
etc.

as for shrinking government, neither party does it. The Republicans enlarge government just as much as the democrats, but the Republicans lie about it. The Democrats proudly proclaim their fancy for bigger and bigger government.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 12:48 AM

Quote:
The Republicans enlarge government just as much as the democrats, but the Republicans lie about it. The Democrats proudly proclaim their fancy for bigger and bigger government.

A country with over 300 Million citizens is somewhat too large for small government to be a thing. But rather than bigger and bigger government Democrats need to create bigger and better government.

Republicans just create expensive problems without ever solving anything.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 01:04 AM

“Bernie’s most important job is being a very reasonable thing that the people want and the establishment refuses to let them have. Force them to kill his run openly and you can wake more people up to the reality that they’re not living in the kind of nation they thought they were.”
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 01:10 AM

Better and more efficient would be good. I remember when then Senator Kent Conrad from North Dakota identified 20 different government agencies/programs where two, three, four were doing just about the same thing. His idea was to combine and eliminate. Take a program or agency were there were three and cut it to one. Those 20 or so programs, agencies could be cut to 5 or 6. But no one was willing to touch it. Whether it was agencies or programs, I'm not sure. That was quite awhile ago.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 01:11 AM

The only people advocating communism are the Communist Party of America. All the "left" in America is advocating is a slightly more progressive new deal like Norway or indeed most of Europe. They are FDR New Dealers. Or Eisenhower Republicans!

Single-payer is not radical: It will help us compete with the rest of the developed world. Free higher education for those capable is pretty common all over the world. Again, it could help us compete with the rest of the countries that do that.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 02:12 AM

By the way, in answer to those who claim Bernie isn't connecting with the black community...
This is happening right now:

Bernie Sanders LIVE now
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By: perotista
Better and more efficient would be good. I remember when then Senator Kent Conrad from North Dakota identified 20 different government agencies/programs where two, three, four were doing just about the same thing. His idea was to combine and eliminate. Take a program or agency were there were three and cut it to one. Those 20 or so programs, agencies could be cut to 5 or 6. But no one was willing to touch it. Whether it was agencies or programs, I'm not sure. That was quite awhile ago.


Guess what? When Bernie and the rest of the Left call to eliminate ICE, they're not saying that they want to eliminate border protection, they're saying ICE is just another BLOATED and CORRUPT agency doing a job that was already being done before ICE existed.
We HAVE a border patrol and customs.
ICE is simply not necessary.

Conservatives should be in favor of such an idea.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
By the way, in answer to those who claim Bernie isn't connecting with the black community...
This is happening right now:

Bernie Sanders LIVE now


As of 5 Feb you can go to question 38 to see how the candidates stand or getting their support from whites, blacks, Hispanics. Now this is nationwide. It is also dynamic and changes week to week.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/73jqd6u5mv/econTabReport.pdf

Over the last three weeks, Biden's support among blacks has dropped from 55% down to the listed 43%. Sanders and Warren have fluxuated between 10-14% each among blacks. Blacks who have left Biden haven't gone to either one. The big winner or who the blacks have went is Bloomberg, he has went from 0% up to 12%.

The lowering of black support for Biden is big in my opinion. That doesn't make him a sure winner in states where the black primary vote is 35% or more. Winning over half of blacks in those states while the rest of the field split the white vote was exactly where Biden's hopes lied.

Some early states where the non-white Democratic Primary vote can be decisive. These figures are from 2016 thanks to Larry Sabato's Crystal Ball Report.

Nevada 36%
South Carolina 57%
Georgia 56%
Alabama 57%
Texas 54%
North Carolina 38%
Tennessee 34%
Virginia 38%
Louisiana 52%
Mississippi 52%
Illinois 43%
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 08:56 PM

You are right, single payer is not radical. not only that but it will cost less and is financially responsible. The problem is that "socialism" thing which we debated to exhaustion months ago. Now, however, its coming true and just may cause the Dems to lose. I am not trying to start an argument here, just mentioning what I have been seeing.

The problems with single payer are daunting. The reason is that it threatens much of the healthcare industries. To run a real single payer system you must control and regulate ALL OF HEALTHCARE! The whole thing. It will be VERY hard to get through the congress. When Obamacare became law it was, basically, the last legislation that Obama was actually allowed by the Republicans. I watched the write up of that and the Republicans actually wrote about half of Obamacare (and then refused to vote for it).

I am not sure how to put in a single payer system. I should also add that there are a number of different single payer systems. That being the case I am not even really sure what is meant, other than the taxes picking up all the tabs. The problem is that is just not that simple. The last healthcare system was put in by Switzerland. Its pretty different from all the others. It says, basically (there is a lot more to it than the following) that insurance companies may continue to underwrite healthcare IF they supply a basic healthcare for all customers at their expense. (then there are controls, etc) The result of their healthcare plan is that insurance companies kinda took over all the hospitals. I am simply suggesting that "single payer healthcare" is a lot more complicated than one might think.

Its also interesting about northern Europe. Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, etc. are all called "socialist". However, that being said they all have different types of government, healthcare, etc. They do have tax supported services, including healthcare, but they are all different!

My reason for saying this is that phrases like; "single payer healthcare" sounds simple - it is NOT!

I should also mention that our current healthcare system is responsible for the auto industry in Canada. They moved a lot of production up there because they had a single payer system so that industry didn't have to go broke paying for healthcare insurance. I have always thought that was interesting.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 09:19 PM

Quote:
I am not sure how to put in a single payer system.


No one is. But by expanding Medicare and Medicaid we can ease ourselves into it. I expect the ACA to play a big part in it too.

It's like boiling frogs. You have to turn the temperature up slowly or they will jump out of the pot.

Quote:
My reason for saying this is that phrases like; "single payer healthcare" sounds simple - it is NOT!
President Trump thought it was simple. "Everybody will be insured! We'll have policies...the best policies!"

Turns out that, like Puerto Rico, it was surrounded by water and hard to get to. So he abandoned it.

Quote:
Its also interesting about northern Europe. Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, etc. are all called "socialist". However, that being said they all have different types of government, healthcare, etc. They do have tax supported services, including healthcare, but they are all different!

Yes, different countries, different laws, but all social democracies.
All listed among the happiest countries in the world, Health insurance, paid time off, free college, living wages. Food security.

Things that Americans can't have. Because FREEDOM.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/10/20 11:41 PM

Or just go for it, if there is enough political support. Canada, England, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc. Just pick one and copy it. They all seem to work. They all seem to be able to afford their system. You can't say it's impossible or we can't afford it, because there they all are.

The US has mostly moved away from bill-for-service already. Most people are on HMO insurance so a whole group of doctors are getting paid so much per capita. Copays just keep people from going to the doctor every day. The shock would be that a few industries would not be raking in billions all of a sudden. Like Big Pharma, and health insurers. But they would still be making a reasonable amount.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger

President Trump thought it was simple. "Everybody will be insured! We'll have policies...the best policies!"


Quote:
"It's an UNBELIEVABLY complex subject. Nobody** knew healthcare could be so complicated."


**TRANSLATION: Trump thinks that if he didn't know it, nobody could know it. If he doesn't know something, it is UNKNOWABLE.

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 02:02 AM

I'm watching Bernie's rally in New Hampshire.
I know this is a Bernie thread but I gotta tell you, after watching the opener, I am patiently waiting for AOC to hit her 35th birthday because...holy moly mother of God, she is Hella-sharp.
If she ever went up against a Republican on the debate stage, she would destroy them. I think she might just BE our first female president.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 05:27 AM

Not to mention those tits. There's not a man alive who could run against those tits.

She can talk?

Born October 89, she's 30. She won't be old enough in 2024.
But I've got high hopes for that one.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 05:30 AM

Or will she? She'll turn 31 before the election so in four years she'll turn 35 before the election...?

Maybe....
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 05:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Not to mention those tits. There's not a man alive who could run against those tits.

She can talk?

Born October 89, she's 30. She won't be old enough in 2024.
But I've got high hopes for that one.


Ummm, yeah, safe to say that's most definitely true. gobsmacked



Sigh smile
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 05:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger

She can talk?


And how, shoulda heard her tonight opening for Bernie.
Reminds me of the "Mad Dogs & Englishmen" film where Leon Russell damn near steals the show.

That woman is electric.
Trump should thank his lucky stars she isn't able to run against him.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 02:05 PM

All Sanders and Buttigieg have to do now is pretend Biden doesn't exist.

His "pony" comment is example of why this is true.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 02:56 PM

She will be going up against, both, the Democratic party as well as the Republican just as Sanders has and is doing now.

A quick study, she's learned from Tio fast, setting up her own election fund for progressive candidates outside of the DCCC. An act or war aimed at the white collar grift going on in the Democratic party to be sure.

I memory serves, Sanders has already committed to her having a role in his cabinet if she wants it.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 02:57 PM

I don't discount the possibility of a Sanders presidency. It's still a 7-ish way race. As with Trump, if he perform near the top in 3-5 more races, others will drop out. Steyers and Bloomberg will stay in for the messaging. Dems, I think, will support any nominee. Establishment Dems want it to be anyone but Bernie, but I'm not sure they're the best gauge of what the country wants. There is a great deal of enthusiasm out there to defeat Trump. That enthusiasm needs to be translated into votes. My great fear is Bernie bros get snitty if he loses the nomination. We need them to win.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 02:58 PM

We are starting to get a look at Bernie's debate points against Trump's railing about evil "Socialism". He will rail about Trump being "Corporate Socialist".

As in, "What do you want? A Corporate Socialist who only works for the 1%?

Or do you want democratic socialism that will work for YOU to take back the country from the people who are wrecking it?"

Followed, of course, by a string of hot Bernie stats on the economy, healthcare, etc.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 02:58 PM

Buttigieg works for the spooks and has killed stray dogs with his boots, allegedly.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 03:01 PM

I love AOC. Smart, personable, forward-thinking, she's the future. So is Buttigieg. I just wish she'd get off the Dem-soc train.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Steyers and Bloomberg will stay in for the messaging. Dems, I think, will support any nominee.


No. Sanders voters will not. One thing that's been learned is triangulation, much like karma, is a bitch and Sander's core support has become louder about not voting for the suit that gets pushed out in front of us as the party standard bearer. .

If all that matters to the 'blue no matter who' crowd is electability then there;s your answer. They won't have the votes to beat the president in November. Or, to paraphrase Herbert, the ability to destroy a thing is to control it. You want and sream about 'Democracy!', 'Electability!' then they have to bend the knee. They won't cuz it's all a grift, IMO.

Iowa has only hardened that resolve. Bernie or Bust
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 03:40 PM

F*** "Bernie or bust" bros. I mean that sincerely. If their fragile little egos can't accept compromise, they are enemies of their own cause. Prissy little purists.

Of course, I think that the vast majority of the Bernie crowd are not that stupid, as they voted for Hillary, and I think he'll be on board as he was in '16, but they are enthusiastic and we need that enthusiasm. We've been down this road before, and I think Bernie haa been a good thing. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. But his shtick is old and tired. He needs to pass the torch.

If he is the nominee, I'll gladly vote for him, and I think he'll make a good President. But he needs a strong VP that represents the future. Someone that can pick up the mantle for the next 8 years. He's 78. He's not running again.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 04:09 PM

The rigging of the primaries has forced progressives to compromise with their vote for a long while now. It's been a hostage situation for quit some time for many.

If the party continues to meddle in the primaries and shut out any left wing candidates as they have promised to do, all those leftists independants will say F#k yer party. Win it on your own then, assh0les!

That is the play for the DNC and the campaign arm of the Democratic Senate and Congressional committees right?

Anyone (that the party deems acceptable only) but Trump!
Blue (as the party determines it) no matter who

Cuz RUSSIA!

IF they keep grifting elections they will dig their electoral graves. Blame 'Bro's' if it helps you.

Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

No. Sanders voters will not. One thing that's been learned is triangulation, much like karma, is a bitch and Sander's core support has become louder about not voting for the suit that gets pushed out in front of us as the party standard bearer. .


Then you're the enemy.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
F*** "Bernie or bust" bros. I mean that sincerely. If their fragile little egos can't accept compromise, they are enemies of their own cause. Prissy little purists.


Exactly this. If you can't handle coalition politics, then you are not only doomed, you're dooming everyone else as well.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The rigging of the primaries has forced progressives to compromise with their vote for a long while now. It's been a hostage situation for quit some time for many.

If the party continues to meddle in the primaries and shut out any left wing candidates as they have promised to do, all those leftists independants will say F#k yer party. Win it on your own then, assh0les!

That is the play for the DNC and the campaign arm of the Democratic Senate and Congressional committees right?

Anyone (that the party deems acceptable only) but Trump!
Blue (as the party determines it) no matter who

Cuz RUSSIA!

IF they keep grifting elections they will dig their electoral graves. Blame 'Bro's' if it helps you.



So basically, your position is that if not enough people want Sanders, then they should get 4 more years of Trump to teach them a lesson?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 04:19 PM

Your a goof.

You've pointed out the obvious for any leftist for years now. Glad you've figured out where you are and the time.

Biden, Emily's list, Thirdway, Obama, Pelosi, DCCC, DSCC, DNC have etc, etc etc

All have been showing their arses to leftists for decades and you finally state the obvious.

What next? Waters wet...

Thanks for the update slick
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 04:25 PM

So basically you GOT four years of trump due to elections fraud and white collar criminality. Happening again, by the way....

Lets talk about something pleasant. How about Russian elections meddling?


You might want to save your indignation for where it's better applied.

But that would require honesty?

Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 05:08 PM

Chunk, my friend, you are constantly shooting at the wrong target. The enemy is over there! We're your friends, and friends don't let friends vote drunk. As I've said, innumerable times, follow your heart, until your heart elects right wing radicals and incompetents. Then, follow your brain. A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step. In '16 there was one progressive on the ballot. Now there are how many?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 05:49 PM

Buttigieg works for the spooks.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Chunk, my friend, you are constantly shooting at the wrong target. The enemy is over there! We're your friends, and friends don't let friends vote drunk. As I've said, innumerable times, follow your heart, until your heart elects right wing radicals and incompetents. Then, follow your brain. A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step. In '16 there was one progressive on the ballot. Now there are how many?


Just one
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 07:01 PM

We seem to be living in VERY strange times. I just noticed that we have Chunk really angry with ALL Democrats as well as, apparently, the party itself. At the same time, however, he wants all these bad people to kneel down at a minority altar many are just not buying. My fond hope is that they don't do that. My way or the highway is actually not very American, rarely wins anything, mostly a spoiler for the other side, etc.

Just saying.............
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 07:14 PM

I have a thought about the Bernie thing. I think what he is about is to try and take over the entire Democratic party (not unlike Trump and the Republican party). He made one run at it, got smacked, never joined, but he and his true believers never did support the party. Now, same deal, this time, however, he has more supporters willing to do the bidding, harass the opposition, make unsupported claims, etc. (all of which is denied) just like 1st time - kinda sounds a bit Trumpy to me. The difference is that Trump did it in one try - Bernie, so far, is up to try #2.

The Democratic party is not a socialist party. There is, again, the American Socialist Party, ready and waiting for Bernie to come on board but, obviously, that's not gonna happen because he is a Democratic Socialist and that is different from a real socialist. Democratic Socialists apparently only want gov to take over a little bit, at first - starting with 20% of the means up production (give or take).

Remains a bit Trumpy for me.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I love AOC. Smart, personable, forward-thinking, she's the future. So is Buttigieg. I just wish she'd get off the Dem-soc train.


What if the Dem-soc train is the future of politics in America?

Ya wanna be like Denmark? Or Russia?

Like Norway? Or Brazil?

Like Sweden? Or Syria?

I'm thinking you need to get on the Dem-soc train before it leaves the station without you.

Medicare for all.
Free college.
Living wages.
Paid time off.

Which of these do you think Americans don't deserve? Which of these are you willing to fight against?

Mainstream Democrats are fighting them all. And you want AOC to join the mainstream?

What about global climate change? Mainstream Democrats can't address the issue because the donor class might lose money.
Immigration reform? Democrats can't be seen as weak on immigration...or crime either. They'll keep cannabis on the A-list til the cows come home.
They'll keep the war on drugs going no matter how many lives are ruined or lost. They, with the Republicans, will make life wonderful for the top 10%.

The other 90% are beginning to demand more. And the social democrats are fighting to get more for them. And the mainstream Democrats are fighting against them, fighting to maintain the status quo.

But if you're positive that Democrats are on the right path and that there are capitalist solutions for capitalist problems then by all means, carry on.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
We seem to be living in VERY strange times. I just noticed that we have Chunk really angry with ALL Democrats as well as, apparently, the party itself. At the same time, however, he wants all these bad people to kneel down at a minority altar many are just not buying. My fond hope is that they don't do that. My way or the highway is actually not very American, rarely wins anything, mostly a spoiler for the other side, etc.

Just saying.............


Your either senile or ridiculous. A difference without distinction really. The ongoing graft is not my responsibility and I'm no different than millions of others that can see it and speak on it.

No anger. You may hate what the current sentiment is right now. It doesn't change the reality on the street or the grift of the party being stupidly played out in front of us.

If you need to think of me as an angry crank and one off that's your choice. That Bernie or Bust position is real. Like it or not. THat makes Sanders your default candidate as you can't get enough votes to win in the general. I think that's how 'ELECTABILITY" works.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 07:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I love AOC. Smart, personable, forward-thinking, she's the future. So is Buttigieg. I just wish she'd get off the Dem-soc train.


What if the Dem-soc train is the future of politics in America?

Ya wanna be like Denmark? Or Russia?

Like Norway? Or Brazil?

Like Sweden? Or Syria?

I'm thinking you need to get on the Dem-soc train before it leaves the station without you.

Medicare for all.
Free college.
Living wages.
Paid time off.

Which of these do you think Americans don't deserve? Which of these are you willing to fight against?

Mainstream Democrats are fighting them all. And you want AOC to join the mainstream?

What about global climate change? Mainstream Democrats can't address the issue because the donor class might lose money.
Immigration reform? Democrats can't be seen as weak on immigration...or crime either. They'll keep cannabis on the A-list til the cows come home.
They'll keep the war on drugs going no matter how many lives are ruined or lost. They, with the Republicans, will make life wonderful for the top 10%.

The other 90% are beginning to demand more. And the social democrats are fighting to get more for them. And the mainstream Democrats are fighting against them, fighting to maintain the status quo.

But if you're positive that Democrats are on the right path and that there are capitalist solutions for capitalist problems then by all means, carry on.


Dem-Soc IS capitalism, it's just capitalism the way it worked in the New Deal era. It's the capitalism almost all of US grew up with.
Up till around the late 70's or early 80's FDR's footprints were still part of our economy.

My only issue is that smart marketers know how to package their products but I have no issue with Bernie and AOC's policy positions for the most part. I am sure that there will be compromises made but they are both coming from a good starting point and they both have the right worldview.

AOC is still a wee bit greenhorn and still comes up with a couple of "student council-ish" sounding papers but I still say give it a year or two and she will have all the polish she needs.
She is always going up against think tanks, who have the money to churn out polish...polish with little substance that serves the people.

But on the whole, she is incredible.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I have a thought about the Bernie thing. I think what he is about is to try and take over the entire Democratic party (not unlike Trump and the Republican party). He made one run at it, got smacked, never joined, but he and his true believers never did support the party. Now, same deal, this time, however, he has more supporters willing to do the bidding, harass the opposition, make unsupported claims, etc. (all of which is denied) just like 1st time - kinda sounds a bit Trumpy to me. The difference is that Trump did it in one try - Bernie, so far, is up to try #2.



The Democratic party is not a socialist party. There is, again, the American Socialist Party, ready and waiting for Bernie to come on board but, obviously, that's not gonna happen because he is a Democratic Socialist and that is different from a real socialist. Democratic Socialists apparently only want gov to take over a little bit, at first - starting with 20% of the means up production (give or take).

Remains a bit Trumpy for me.


Currently, no. Formerly, yes. The democratic party had support from socialist organizations and political parties.

Your red baiting types has made the democratic party what it is today and helped bring a Trump presidency into being.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
We seem to be living in VERY strange times. I just noticed that we have Chunk really angry with ALL Democrats as well as, apparently, the party itself. At the same time, however, he wants all these bad people to kneel down at a minority altar many are just not buying. My fond hope is that they don't do that. My way or the highway is actually not very American, rarely wins anything, mostly a spoiler for the other side, etc.

Just saying.............


I want to make something clear...
Earlier I posted a "Bernie Bro" thread and included a snarky quip referencing Bernie "politely asking his supporters not to harass Dem opponents" and I said "IOW grow the **** up".

Chunk, if you interpreted that as a personal attack aimed at you, I apologize, because it wasn't aimed at you personally to begin with.

In fact, the thread itself did not even BEGIN here at the Rant at all.
I first posted a reference to Bernie's request on my personal Facebook page, then went to another forum and posted the same thing, then came here and duplicated it.
I then posted a poll on the other forum, an anonymous one, then came here and posted a similar poll and most recently posted a PUBLIC poll on the other forum, in order to compare any differences between anonymous votes and the public ones.

None of it was intended as a jab at you.
And I am sorry if you felt that it was.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 08:26 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
“Bernie’s most important job is being a very reasonable thing that the people want and the establishment refuses to let them have. Force them to kill his run openly and you can wake more people up to the reality that they’re not living in the kind of nation they thought they were.”


:applaud:
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger


If you ask me it's the other candidates who need to get ahead of what Sanders has done to them.


:applaud:
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 08:57 PM

Quote:
My way or the highway is actually not very American, rarely wins anything, mostly a spoiler for the other side, etc.


So what you're saying is it's your way or the highway, right?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I have a thought about the Bernie thing. I think what he is about is to try and take over the entire Democratic party (not unlike Trump and the Republican party). He made one run at it, got smacked, never joined, but he and his true believers never did support the party. Now, same deal, this time, however, he has more supporters willing to do the bidding, harass the opposition, make unsupported claims, etc. (all of which is denied) just like 1st time - kinda sounds a bit Trumpy to me. The difference is that Trump did it in one try - Bernie, so far, is up to try #2.

The Democratic party is not a socialist party. There is, again, the American Socialist Party, ready and waiting for Bernie to come on board but, obviously, that's not gonna happen because he is a Democratic Socialist and that is different from a real socialist. Democratic Socialists apparently only want gov to take over a little bit, at first - starting with 20% of the means up production (give or take).

Remains a bit Trumpy for me.


How about we dispense with all the backstabbing by the DNC and the DNC finally admits that maybe just MAYBE it should consider a move to the Left so that it isn't "Republican-Lite".
I say that because Republican-Lite isn't working, and it didn't work the last time, or the time before, or the time before that.

Carter got stabbed in the back by the GOP.
Clinton got impeached by the GOP.
Obama got backstabbed AND treated like a "FIELD NIGGER"...again BY the GOP.
Not even the "House" variety, the FIELD variety, the kind that gets whipped the most, gets tortured the most and shot at the most.
And of course, the ever so moderate Hillary...what can I say?

Just once, I would like moderate Democrats and moderately left independents to acknowledge the fact that we are not up against a moderate opposition. And the reason why Republicans keep echoing "concern troll" thoughts about our candidates is because what they really WANT is another "moderate" that they can destroy AFTER they get elected to the White House.

The reason they are so eager to destroy folks like Bernie or Liz is because they are terrified at the prospect of either of them getting elected. So they want to destroy them before that has a chance of happening.

For moderate Dems they have a different tactic, because they know a moderate Dem could beat Trump but won't cause much trouble once elected, and that is precisely when the Mitch McConnell plan goes into action. If in the minority, Mitch will wear out the filibuster button till it crumbles, then he will order a new one from Amazon and repeat ad nauseum.
If in the majority, well....we saw what happened there already.

Someone tell me HOW this mythical moderate Dem salve stops the burning sensation. I have yet to see any relief in almost thirty-some years.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 10:06 PM

That's it right there, Jeffery. I'm too old to wait three more presidents.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/11/20 11:56 PM

I think it would be a mistake for AOC to take a cabinet position. She needs more time in the House. Moving on so quickly sort of betrays the folks in her district who sent her. After a few terms, she could run for the Senate. If she does well as a Rep, she could win that Senate seat in New York.

She doesn't need to be the first woman President: Just the best. And to do that, I think she needs more experience in Congress.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 12:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
That's it right there, Jeffery. I'm too old to wait three more presidents.


Not only am I too old as well, but more importantly, our kids are WAY too vulnerable, especially my son Daryl.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Not to mention those tits. There's not a man alive who could run against those tits.

She can talk?

Born October 89, she's 30. She won't be old enough in 2024.
But I've got high hopes for that one.




I think if we run that on a loop everywhere, Trump heads will do the Mars Attacks thing.

Posted by: Ken Condon

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 05:32 AM

So no wonder why the right wing talking heads despise her so much. She has the very thing they totally desire. Great big beautiful eyes and a shapely form. And athleticism. But wrapped up in a message they can’t nor won't abide.

Plus her intelligence gets in the way.

I have often wondered why they are so afraid of her.

The answer now is obvious.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I love AOC. Smart, personable, forward-thinking, she's the future. So is Buttigieg. I just wish she'd get off the Dem-soc train.


What if the Dem-soc train is the future of politics in America?

Ya wanna be like Denmark? Or Russia?

Like Norway? Or Brazil?

Like Sweden? Or Syria?

I'm thinking you need to get on the Dem-soc train before it leaves the station without you.
....
Wow, my friend, I didn't buy a ticket on that train...

I am not a dem-soc, or dem, or soc. We've had this conversation too many times to repeat all of it again. I think the policies AOC and Bernie propose are great. I'm on board with that. It's the label they want to apply I have problems with. It's bad English. Which is the noun, which the adverb?

Social democracy I'm all for. Socialism? Not so much, democratic, totalitarian, or whatever. I'm not for "nationalizing" the means of production (although recognizing our ownership of some of it would be nice). Rather, I'm for creating programs for the benefit of our society, thus social democracy. I don't want to take away, I want to return more.

Labels, and definitions, matter.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 05:10 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
[Wow, my friend, I didn't buy a ticket on that train...


I didn't buy a ticket for the Trump train, but here I am.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 05:47 PM

Just a reminder to the fence riders waiting for the ‘party’ to elevate someone, anyone, to beat Sanders. They are actively backing an oligarch and a spook.

Neither of these men will get minority votes dooming them in the general election.

That means they are O.K. With losing to Trump rather than winning with Sanders.

They will be fine. They’ve been fine.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I think the policies AOC and Bernie propose are great. I'm on board with that. It's the label they want to apply I have problems with.


I don't even have a problem with the label, speaking personally, but then again I also think that the Pontiac Aztek was unfairly panned by automobile critics as "ugly", and yet the Nissan Juke is considered "cute"!



But you can't fight the press and the focus groups and expect to win because the deck is stacked in their favor, so the smart thing to do if you want your flavor to survive is to rebrand and repackage it and fool people into thinking it's.....drum roll...(wait for it!)



Of course, if your brand was already pilloried by the critics and the press before the rollout, your chances are nil, but if you were smart, you'd have known that already and you would get ahead of it and try using a different flavor name or brand name to begin with because you pre-tested first before the rollout.

And that is what FDR did with his social democracy, which is why it largely succeeded and was embraced by society. He branded it right, he marketed it right and he promoted it right, and the audience bought his presto-change-o sleight of hand, and they eagerly lapped up all that wonderful social democracy and called it ice cream.

But as I've said before, the kids don't mind.
To them, it's "capitalism" that's the Pontiac Astek, not socialism.
Socialism is the new iPhone, they can't wait to try it out.

The question is, will there be enough kids to beat out all the old folks who are scared of the "new iPhones".

Again, marketing wizardry...branding is the magic, branding is the secret sauce. We've sold everything from Chia Pets to Popeil Pocket Fishermen to people for millions, so anything IS POSSIBLE.

Crossover marketing! Old folks are scared of the "new iPhone" but they'll eagerly snap up an overpriced "Cricket Phone" from Consumer Cellular with the big buttons and simplified interface.
And yet it's still a smartphone.
Then all the kids have to do is wait till the rollout fever dies down, and switch to the new iPhones anyway.
And by the time the old codgers realize it, they've already begun to like the new iPhone (socialism) anyway.

We do the same thing when we want Rover to take a pill.
We wrap the pill in bacon or a piece of hamburger and toss it in Rover's general direction and "GULP, SLURP!", down the hatch, problem solved.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 06:04 PM

Sanders polls higher when he’s referenced as a socialist than he does when he’s referred to as a democrat.

Keep it simple. Be direct. Don’t BS.

It’s what people like about sanders.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Sanders polls higher when he’s referenced as a socialist than he does when he’s referred to as a democrat.

Keep it simple. Be direct. Don’t BS.

It’s what people like about sanders.


It's what I like about Sanders, it's what a lot of people like about Sanders, but in the end, it depends on which polls you're looking at.

I agree that for many voters, you're probably right, but we need "all the voters"...we're running against the master of alternate reality, the biggest and most masterful media illusionist of the Modern Era.

And hey, if it turns out you're right, Sanders' constituency is still there. They get it already, that's why they already picked him.

The extra people we need are the ones who do this:



Let me ask you this, do you think the people who admire Sanders because he's a socialist understand the above GIF meme?
I think they do, and I think they understand why it's so funny.

And if they understand that, then they're in on the fix, yes?
If it means Sanders attracts "all the voters" then the fix is in, yes?
And his fans are in on it, yes?

What is the downside?
We're only doing what people are already okay with (witness Trump!)...manipulating how they think of a candidate.

Trumpers think he's all about fixing the economy because he's riding the Obama recovery and taking credit for it.
They think he's a master statesman because he created that illusion.
What is the downside of Sanders doing what he's already doing anyway, which is channeling FDR?

Nina Turner has put Sanders and FDR together four times in the last week at his rallies, three or four times. I saw three of them.

You can't be sure that his highest poll numbers aren't due "in part" to the fact that his associates are already introducing that nice FDR guy and mixing in a little of that New Deal flavor.

When you ask his current crowd, of course they're okay with the fact that he says he's a democratic socialist. Doesn't mean they didn't see and hear Nina Turner talking about FDR.
Sanders himself talks about FDR often.
I think it's working well for him.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 06:44 PM

Quote:
The question is, will there be enough kids to beat out all the old folks who are scared of the "new iPhones".


Eventually, yes.

"The old ways are rapidly fading."
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 06:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The question is, will there be enough kids to beat out all the old folks who are scared of the "new iPhones".


Eventually, yes.

"The old ways are rapidly fading."


I'm just suggesting we use whatever tools there are in the toolbox to "speed up" that "fade" a little bit in time for November.

That's all I've EVER suggested.
Use ALL the tricks, use ALL the tools, use anything that works.
The other guys are, why shouldn't we?
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 06:53 PM

Quote:
You can't be sure that his high poll numbers aren't due to the fact that his associates are already introducing that nice FDR guy and mixing in a little of that New Deal flavor.

Yes, you can. FDR is essentially forgotten. The only New Deal anybody remembers is the Green one that hasn't happened yet.

Donald Trump might also remind his voters that FDR was elected four times and that he should get the same treatment as Democrats!

Social democracy works. People love it. Corporations don't.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 07:04 PM

President Roosevelt was NOT a socialist - democratic or otherwise. He understood that words matter (unlike others in this modern age): https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/16/democrats-socialism-fdr-roosevelt-227622

My suspicion is that Bloomberg will settle this whole thing down. I have listened to, and talked with, folks that are working for mim. Most were Democratic folk who have worked on other campaigns or directly for the DNC. They are all saying the same thing. Bloomberg is building, basically, a NEW party! When its all over the Dems are likely to be eaten by Bloomberg. Whilst he is running he has also said that he will support any real Democrat if he fails and turn over his entire operation (which, by the end will have had at least a half a billion dollars spent on it) He is also the guy who scares the crap out of Trump. I know, all the 'real' lefties will hate this, hate bloomberg, and, of course, hate all the moderates too.

The simple fact is that I want Trump gone and, so far, the Dems have not exactly shown they are capable of doing that job. Instead is eat one another, whine a lot, miss opportunities, keep on the same hired help (perez) that oversaw, and directed Hillary to ignore all them 'real' Democrats and work on the Republicans instead. So far, the Dems, and Bernie, have pretty much proven that they are not out to beat trump so much as screw it up every chance they get.

If nothing else this is going to be a really interesting time for politics.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 07:33 PM

Sanders is the most popular senator.
He’s 2-0.
The DNC had to steal the last election outright in order to win the primary.
They just destroyed the Iowa caucus to keep Sanders from giving a victory speech.
He’s running a popular campaign, not buying one.
Bloomberg is the problem with the ‘party of the little guy’. Not Sanders.
It’s a primary not a coronation. It’s supposed to offer options and distinctions.
Mike was a Republican who backed Bush’s election. That’s ok now by the way, in fact, rebadged moderate republicans are now preferred.
The Democratic Party has chosen to run republicans over progressives and have openly declared war on them.

That’s not Sanders fault, by the why.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 08:27 PM

The Dems, as far as I am concerned have done a great job demonstrating their inability to get anything done. They have, basically, laid down in the House, their little debacle with votes is almost mythic in gross incompetence, etc. In addition, apparently being a Democrat is not necessary to run under the Democratic banner, hence Bernie who claims to be a socialist, is dedicated to getting as much power to gov as possible. This is demonstrated by how he wants to handle healthcare, safety, etc. (basically most of his 'democratic socialist goals", force companies to share their gross value, etc. All that being said, as far as I can tell, the democratic umbrella embraces ANYBODY. As far as I can tell Nazis and White supremacists can claim Democratic status as well.

Oh, then there are open borders that tend to upset many. My own view, on this one, is that we have only seen the beginning of this one. There is already over 3 years of drought in Latin America and its getting much worse. We have a target on our backs and if we have open borders we will double our population in a few years! This is happening right now and nobody seems to know it.

Then there is the simple fact that we are starting, right now, to build a serious underclass currently being called "The Homeless". This one isn't going away and its being dealt with by a few cities but, mostly not.
Oh, I consider the Homeless is a social meld of drug addicts, the very poor, the folks with mental problem, and predators and should probably be dealt with piece by piece. Some are actually doing that but, for the most part, its being 'investigated' and 'studied' <sigh>

Oh, can't resist. There is a science fiction meme that involves a permanent underclass one way or another. Its been there forever and, now, yet something else from science fiction is becoming fact. Always thought that was kinda interesting........
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 09:07 PM

Quote:
...keep on the same hired help (perez) that oversaw, and directed Hillary to ignore all them 'real' Democrats and work on the Republicans instead.


See, JGW, it's hard to take you serious because you often state "simple facts" that are not facts at all.

Debbie Wasserman Shultz directed the DNC when Hillary ran against Sanders. She cheated seven ways from Sunday in Clinton's favor. Democrats were outraged. Real Democrats. Wasserman-Shultz was booted from the job and an election was held to replace her and Democratic rules were changed so that it could not happen again.

Keith Ellison(a progressive) and Tom Perez(a neo-liberal) ran for the job and Perez won. Perez is a conservative of Cuban descent from Miami, just like Marco Rubio.

Perez is very sensitive to being compared to Wasserman-Shcultz but DNC operatives below him, along with vengeful Clinton operatives are not sensitive at all and will do absolutely anything whether it be within the rules or not to destroy the Sanders campaign. The Iowa App was the first volley.

So, yeah...I get that you're down with that. I feel that way about Biden. I wasn't disappointed when Trump torpedoed his candidacy with the Ukraine thing. Now that that's out of the way I'm a blue no matter who guy. I think I can see a path to socialism through Bloomberg even.

I just really hate to think that a majority of Democratic voters will go for a republican billionaire buying his way into the presidency through the Democratic Party.

Old "Stopandfrisk" Bloomburg who tells us that all the crime is in the black neighborhoods!

His benevolent Daddy Warbucks veneer isn't going to last long before the shine wears off. It's like jumping in on the second half of a marathon....Is this who we've become?

Probably. I dunno. I'm hoping to turn this train around and head back to shore before it comes off the tracks...

I call it social democracy, that's what they call it in Europe. It's not socialism. It's just like the US economy with higher taxes, more regulations, bigger paychecks and 24 days off. I've shown you a dozen nations where it's been done a dozen different ways and all have been successful. Our constitution was practically written for it.

I wish Bernie would sit down with David Letterman and clear this up.

But I know why he doesn't. I've been trying for years to clear it up with you but you always come back screaming SOCIALIZMS!!!!
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/12/20 10:58 PM

sorry about the perez thing - I was wrong.......... Doesn't really matter. Whoever was in charge screwed the goose and hillary lost. I always found it interesting that her husband told her she was making a mistake and she ignored him.

I don't have any problem with biden, other than he is, not unlike Bernie, just too old for the job.

I just want Trump done and gone. I will vote for anybody running against Trump. I fear what will happen in another 4 years. He is following the dictator rule book and his followers have been polled. They have proudly announced that they would prefer the congress just go away so he can "do his job". Then there is his private gestapo (ICE) which has found to be a good place to get a job if you are a racist.

There are a couple of things I like about Bloomberg. The first is that he is really competent. He didn't inherit 450 million like Trump, for instance. Nor is a multiple bankrupt. He has also proven, I think, that he really does want to help. He did that in New York. it was a serious mess when he took over. I know, there are some things not thought to be right but that's true with most of the human race.

I also like his thoughts on the organization he is building. As I previously said, he seems to be building an entirely new party and then, apparently, giving it to the Dems. My fear if if the Dems get their hands on it it will be turned to mud. The Dems kinda have a record of messing up and that is unfortunate. They could do worse than putting somebody in charge who can run a 60 billion dollar empire with expertise. I would expect him to have at gov bigtime if he is president. My wife, who is better than I about politics thinks she will turn it all over to one of the candidates if he likes him/her (I have no idea where she got that idea)

the stop and frisk thing is interesting. I know somebody who is a lifelong black worker in the trenches. I asked her about the mass imprisonment and stop and frisk. Her reply was interesting. She said, yah, Bloomberg did that. The problem is that nobody is calling out the Black religious, black judges and black police who were in on it big time. When I asked her about how the black religious were the main ones against legalization of marijuana in California she was not at all kindly towards them. I really don't know too many blacks but she is one of the responsible ones, as far as I can tell. She comes from California and travels the entire country doing her thing and has been for a long time. I met her through my sister the retired California judge that lives in San Diego (hilltop).

I do keep pounding my drum about the WORD "socialist". Words matter, bigtime. Trump knows this and goes after that one all the time. The dems have never, in the history of the nation, won the presidency, from the Republicans, without a national financial problem. Trump is going to be a bugger to beat. Full employment, stocks up, Trump blather and gaslighting. I really wish the dem candidates would stop eating each other and start on Trump right now but they don't seem to be able to stop themselves.

I am, incidentally, for tax-supported stuff like police, firemen, healthcare, libraries, and public schools. I am also fixing the higher education mess. Other countries, like Canada, have done that through paying off the expense of education for things we need, like doctors, scientists, teachers, nurses, etc. They do that with public service - we don't do it at all (there is some of that with doctors but its difficult. I am not for how the Dems deal with tax payer stuff. Bernie, for instance, is just going to stuff it all down everybody's throats whether they want it or not (along with some other stuff). I get nervous when a politician starts wanting to give more power to tell people what to do without a LOT of explanation - Bernie doesn't care. He is determined to 'help' people no matter what they think - that has never been a real good idea as far as I am concerned. Giving gov the power to force 'help' is what socialism is all about. It has always ended with one guy in charge and a bunch of committees and a national police force. This is where Trump is headed and also, as far as I am concerned, Bernie.

Ooops - got carried away, apologies.........
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 12:16 AM

Quote:
Ooops - got carried away, apologies.........


Nothing more therapeutic than a good long rant!

You know Bloomburg is 77 right? Older than Biden.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 12:20 AM

Quote:
It has always ended with one guy in charge and a bunch of committees and a national police force.

Is that what's happening in Norway? Denmark? Switzerland? Sweden? et al?

Nope. Happiest people in the world is what's happening.

You got something against happiness?
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
[Wow, my friend, I didn't buy a ticket on that train...


I didn't buy a ticket for the Trump train, but here I am.
I got run over by a Trump train.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 02:04 AM

Before people get too excited about Bernie's performance in Iowa and New Hampshire or spinning any more crazy conspiracy theories, I think it behooves us to note: more people didn't vote for Bernie than did; far fewer people voted for Bernie than 2016, and that was a two-/three-way race. Voter turnout in New Hampshire was higher this year than in either 2016 OR 2008. He's in second place in delegate count. A little leavening is in order.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 02:08 AM

S’funny.
We all got run over by the Clinton team train.
It’s just happened again in Iowa.

I’ve heard their library is lovely. The best that $165,000,000 could buy.
Maybe they’ll dedicate a wing to Robby Mook or David Plouffe.

Iowans can only hope.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 02:20 AM

What are the conspiracies about winning New Hampshire?
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 02:23 AM

Bernie is to old. Before I would cast my vote for him I'd want to know who his VP is.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 02:53 AM

Quote:
Bernie is to old.


Same age as Biden and Bloomberg.

Same age as Pelosi. Same age as Mitch McConnell.

78 is like the new 40 they tell me....

If Trump serves a second term he will retire at 78.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 03:10 AM

Quote:
Before people get too excited about Bernie's performance in Iowa and New Hampshire...


When would you suggest we start to get excited? This could be the only chance we have because Bloomberg has bought the other states, Corporate Democrats are screaming bloody murder and will spend billions to bring him down...just sayin'.

Might as well enjoy what fleeting moments of happiness that might come our way before we descend into rule by Billionaires. Elections have never brought me happiness and I expect to end this one with ashes in my mouth. I can still believe that Bernie has a chance...that working people will rise up and seize what is their due. That men and women everywhere can join hands and fix our broken nation, that we can fix our broken climate, that future generations will inherit a world that is better than this one.

You can vote to keep doing what we're doing or you can vote for Bernie.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 04:19 AM

The popularity and enthusiasm for Sanders is not in dispute.
His policies, ditto.

What is sobering is the unelectable white collar grifting that is going on with the unelected party establishment. They have control over the ballot supply.

Who’s votes and how they get counted are getting decided by these frauds and flop artist grifters. Expect more of the same consultancy ripoffs, tech app swindles and sudden rule changes that is rife with the Democratic Party primary.

That is what maintains it. It’s what Party backers like NWP are counting on to keep the status quo of the party going. Nevada has a looong history of vote rigging. That’s the sobering battle that gets fought next.

For all the phony pearl clutching of foreign meddling and the sanctity of our elections blather that’s been incessantly blasted at the public over the last 3 1/2 years the silence of the corporate infotainment of the current banana republic style election fraud going on is revealing of their enabling it.


Robby Mook wrote the Clinton campaign app that they revered like a golden calf in 2016.
It was sh!t and helped Clinton lose.

The same Robby Mook who helped develope the Shadow app that was foisted on the IDA by the DNC for the caucus.

Robby Mook got paid both times. Very handsomely.

Liberal meritocracy was always bullish!t to justify screwing people over. In what world does incompetence and failure get rewarded over and over?

I believe I posted Naomi Konst addressing that world in an earlier video post in the Iowa thread. The DNC world is where.

No wonder they’ve been screaming RUSSIA! Helps hide the rip offs.
No wonder AOC has declared war on the DCCC ballot monopoly and is building a financing organization outside of DNC control to elect real progressive democrats instead of Joe Manchins.

Sanders threatens these white collar grifters meal tickets. The grifters that stuck the country with Trump but get paid either way. They are doing it to you again by the way.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 06:41 AM

Like I said...
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Like I said...


Weren’t you the guy advocating for democrats to run more Joe Manchins?

Liberals prefer Trump to Sanders. It’s on display.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 02:43 PM

A very good dive into the anti democratic liberal institutions that will work on Trumps behalf rather than see a Sanders nomination:

“From the standpoint of those liberals tied to investor-class interests, a Trump victory in 2020, even if it were to raise a serious threat of authoritarianism, could be less disturbing than a Sanders-led, left-tacking political realignment. And, much as the Clinton administration’s liberal architects of welfare reform dismissed their left critics as tendentious and naďve—until those critics were proven right—liberals’ insistence that Sanders can’t win preempts, at least for now, questions about what they would do if he were to win the nomination. Would they support him? Would they follow Bloomberg, or someone else, on a third-party ticket?”


Here They Come Again: The Kind of Neoliberal Democrats Who Prefer Trump to Sanders

I notice the liberals doing the ‘screw ball’ finger twirl at critics is no longer working like it used to with the general public as much as it does with themselves.

Ditto on Bernie Bro or Red baiting button pushing.

Elections fraud on the other hand....
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 07:26 PM

Like I said...

You can vote to keep doing what we're doing or you can vote for Bernie.

Your confidence in the Democratic party is far greater than mine NWP.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 07:41 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


Liberals prefer Trump to Sanders. It’s on display.


And progressives prefer Trump to liberals.

The combination of the two being why we are all [censored] doomed.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 07:50 PM

Quote:
Liberals and flies, I do despise
The more I see liberals, the more I like flies.


Chunks, did you know that Capital Hill Blue was originally started in 1994 as an anti-Clinton vehicle? I don't know if you could call our founder a "progressive", but he's a guy that sees through the bullshit of partisan politics. I expect he doesn't cotton much to the 'socialism' of Bernie Sanders though.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 08:07 PM

I do know that, and its a problem. On the upside he hasn't had a heart attack lately <G>
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 08:14 PM

I don't think they consider themselves to be socialist. I think the term, over there, is 'democratic socialist'. Well, then there is one that is a monarchy too.

have you been following their prison situations? Finland, I think (one of them) has actually shut down most of their prisons. A good thing I think as their crime is very low.

they are the happiest people in the world too!

Again, I am not against tax paid services. I am, however, dead set against any Democrat even thinking the word "socialist" in America. My problem, again, is with the word, not the content (except in extreme situations like bernie has proposed which seriously involves gov telling people how to live their lives, basically "my way or the highway" stuff. I am not sure how to say this. It makes me very nervous when somebody is determined to 'help' no matter what I think.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 08:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


Liberals prefer Trump to Sanders. It’s on display.


And progressives prefer Trump to liberals.

The combination of the two being why we are all [censored] doomed.


Aint it the truth?...But really, is it the truth?

The argument between liberals and progressives is the reason we're doomed? I guess by doomed you mean another Trump term? It won't be pleasant and I'd prefer either a liberal or a progressive president but it is what it is. The union will survive and progressive opposition will continue to grow. Boomers will continue to die, and eventually we will get that progressive government that we need to avoid the very doom that you predict.

It's the natural order of things. Pull your Marxian guidebook out and go over the highlighted sections again.

“Without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement.” - V.I. Lenin
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


Liberals prefer Trump to Sanders. It’s on display.


And progressives prefer Trump to liberals.

The combination of the two being why we are all [censored] doomed.


Aint it the truth?...But really, is it the truth?

The argument between liberals and progressives is the reason we're doomed? I guess by doomed you mean another Trump term? It won't be pleasant and I'd prefer either a liberal or a progressive president but it is what it is. The union will survive and progressive opposition will continue to grow. Boomers will continue to die, and eventually we will get that progressive government that we need to avoid the very doom that you predict.

It's the natural order of things. Pull your Marxian guidebook out and go over the highlighted sections again.

“Without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement.” - V.I. Lenin



Incrementalism is one of those things that sounds great in theory, but is rough on people on the ground.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/13/20 09:23 PM

Capitalism is pretty rough on the people on the ground too. Hence, more and more of the exploited proletariat will join forces with progressives to defeat the Bougies.

Incrementalism? You think we should take up arms, comrade? Abandon the fight at the ballot box?

Bernie leads some national poll by double digits now.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 06:28 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I don't think they consider themselves to be socialist. I think the term, over there, is 'democratic socialist'.


But he plays one on TV. That’s a problem.

Opinion Bernie Sanders Isn’t a Socialist

Quote:
"So why does Sanders call himself a socialist? I’d say that it’s mainly about personal branding, with a dash of glee at shocking the bourgeoisie. And this self-indulgence did no harm as long as he was just a senator from a very liberal state."



--I've already made this very comment for years...YEARS.
Bernie is a social democrat, he's not a socialist, but he thinks it's cute to brand himself as such as a poke in the eye of the bougies.

But the Republi-bougies are like the tattle-tale six year old girls in the schoolyard, the ones who live to "go tell" and get other kids in trouble. Most Demo-bougies are just too timid to do anything but cluck their tongues in curt disapproval, mainly to curry small favor with the Republi-bougies.

This sh!t is writ large in our current schoolyard and in any schoolyard, the smart ones learn how to mount a distraction to keep the tattletales occupied.

Often one just needs to use a symbol, it works well on the "symbol-minded".
Some just call it "crossover marketing".



I'm totally good with being in the company of Mr. Krugman. wink
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger

Bernie leads some national poll by double digits now.


I love that he's growing longer legs.
I hope that somehow his message can somehow transcend ID's and labels.
Hey, it is possible. Even I admit it's possible and I always worry about the masses who are conditioned to be frightened by "The S Word".
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger

Bernie leads some national poll by double digits now.


I love that he's growing longer legs.
I hope that somehow his message can somehow transcend ID's and labels.
Hey, it is possible. Even I admit it's possible and I always worry about the masses who are conditioned to be frightened by "The S Word".


They're more troubled, apparently, but the attack on social security and on the 16% cut to the CDC that Trump is jabbering about during the Covid epidemic.

This is what the dems should be running on, IMO.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger

Bernie leads some national poll by double digits now.


I love that he's growing longer legs.
I hope that somehow his message can somehow transcend ID's and labels.
Hey, it is possible. Even I admit it's possible and I always worry about the masses who are conditioned to be frightened by "The S Word".


They're more troubled, apparently, but the attack on social security and on the 16% cut to the CDC that Trump is jabbering about during the Covid epidemic.

This is what the dems should be running on, IMO.


Here's something to ponder.
Immediately after announcing his run, Mike Bloomberg promised that if he did not win the Democratic nomination, that he would gladly hand over his resources to help the Dem winner.
Would he really do that, keep his promise, if Bernie was the winner?
I guarantee you that Bernie will work with anybody, he has worked with the most conservative Republicans in Congress before, cheerfully.

OMG can you imagine Bernie and Bloomy arm in arm?
It would literally make Trump's head explode! LOL
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 07:30 PM

Looks like the left is showing it's chops meme'ing and guerilla film making.

Funny stuff out for valentines day from the 'bernie bro's:

=68.ARAE2wwa1CeHo1O_uI3gb9rnZhpx1YI0Re0c...1 833 not me us

Not up on youtubes yet. Gotta love the up and coming talent pitching in for Bernie
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 07:35 PM

Looks like it's gettin down to the oligarch authoritarian with pedo friends and a populist socialist that hates women.

Capitol vs. People

And it's still in the primaries!
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Looks like it's gettin down to the oligarch authoritarian with pedo friends and a populist socialist that hates women.

Capitol vs. People

And it's still in the primaries!


You're calling it with 1% of delegates committed?
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 07:54 PM

Quote:
can you imagine Bernie and Bloomy arm in arm?


Perhaps a match made in heaven. Or the underworld, depending on your beliefs. But these matches never seem to happen in real life.

Can a capitalist and a socialist work together? I think so, as long as there are no partisan divides. Social democracy requires the expertise of both. If you plan to tax the living f*ck out of rich people you've got to work hard to keep their profits high. You keep their profits high by making them pay a living wage so workers can afford to buy the products they make. Then you tax the workers so the rich aren't driven out of business by high taxes. Everybody pays more taxes but also receive more services. Free higher education provides the skilled workers needed and the innovation required to compete. Socialized healthcare keeps the workers healthy and boosts production.
Capitalists and socialists march together hand in hand to a better future!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 08:55 PM

No. They've got the fix in already for the convention. It's looks to be a wonder if they'll keep the rules for no super delegates in the first round should Sanders prevail in the delegates leading up to the convention.

I'm seeing Bernie rising in the polls as the street level campaign continues to spread. I see the plutocrat buying the party off in his favor at the top of the primary food chain currently. He's sucking the air out of the campaigns of his competitors currently by poaching all the staff with sign on bonuses, gifts etc...

So it's mikes billions doing a hostile takeover vs a street level populist campaign of Sanders, IMO.

Delegates being assigned is a corrupt farce as we keep seeing. Now if your interests get served by that corruption, that's another story and I'm sure it's beyond reproach and should be treated with solemnity and reverence, etc, etc...
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 08:58 PM

This business about Socialism is a bit confusing. We live in a capitalist country and we get along with social/tax paid services all the time. Police, Firemen, public schools, etc. all qualify as socialist in the end and they all work fine if the tax payers support them and, for the most part, they do. There are a bunch of other services too.

One of my problems with those all for some kind of socialism is the universality of some of their wants. "Free higher education" is one of those. There are no boundaries so I have to assume that anybody can goto university whether they are qualified, keep their grades up, whatever. I don't think anybody is for that but "free higher education" doesn't put any regulations on it so I guess its just something free for everybody no matter what. I know (or suspect) that there really are some boundaries but the statement don't mention those. the same applies to healthcare. In this case everybody is included but there is a LOT more that goes along with that one. Basically, right now, healthcare is one of our major capitalist industries and its running brave, free, and powered by pure greed. To provide healthcare, if done right, takes control of healthcare, controls profits, access, etc. This is necessary or we would be broke in a couple of months. How this is done is a serious question which, as far as I can tell, is not even addressed.

So, when I hear the politicians promising this and that, all we get are the bones and the bones just don't cut it. Free, as scooter says "is a very good price". The problem is that "free" is, basically pure bullsh*t. How much depends on the future which brings up the little thing called trust. I don't trust any of them so far.

Just saying..............
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 09:00 PM

I don't believe a socialist (whatever that means) can work with a capitalist as capitalism currently exists.

Sanders won't work with the Pedophile adjacent, racist Oligarch.

Bets?
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
No. They've got the fix in already for the convention. It's looks to be a wonder if they'll keep the rules for no super delegates in the first round should Sanders prevail in the delegates leading up to the convention.

I'm seeing Bernie rising in the polls as the street level campaign continues to spread. I see the plutocrat buying the party off in his favor at the top of the primary food chain currently. He's sucking the air out of the campaigns of his competitors currently by poaching all the staff with sign on bonuses, gifts etc...

So it's mikes billions doing a hostile takeover vs a street level populist campaign of Sanders, IMO.

Delegates being assigned is a corrupt farce as we keep seeing. Now if your interests get served by that corruption, that's another story and I'm sure it's beyond reproach and should be treated with solemnity and reverence, etc, etc...


By golly I think you're right.

It's marketing forces and unlimited funds versus the populist. (Bougies vs Proles)

I'm hoping for a backfire, probably you are too.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 10:23 PM

I got a few reminders of Bloomberg's positions, which he seems to be covering up right now, but as with all month old kitty litter, the stench overpowers.
Chunk is right, or at any rate Bernie would vomit before giving the nod to help from Bloomberg, and besides, it is moot because no question about it, Bloomberg would rather walk it back and say he never imagined helping Bernie anyway.

More to come, but BB is looking more and more like a crypto-fasc trying to buy the Democratic Party outright.

God Almighty, sometimes I am downright stupid.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/14/20 11:07 PM

I don't know how much you were following the Occupy movement as it was happening but you could hear the distant drums beating all the way in Upstate NY. Alex Pareene Did a good Bloomberg take recently that sheds light on how this guy would rule. For many in NY, we haven't forgotten.

"Earlier this week, when audio resurfaced of Bloomberg defending racial profiling by police and lamenting that police “disproportionately stop whites too much and minorities too little,” his comments were treated as newly uncovered bombshells. But he said these things all the time—on the radio, on television, to newspaper reporters—for years."

Michael Bloomberg’s Polite Authoritarianism

Conversely, Another very good writer, Matt Taibbi, covered Sanders up close around the same time as Bloomberg was imposing defacto martial law in the minority neighborhoods of NYC:

"I thought Sanders would be an ideal subject for a variety of reasons, but mainly for his Independent status. For all the fuss over his “socialist” tag, Sanders is really a classic populist outsider. The mere fact that Sanders signed off on the idea of serving as my guide says a lot about his attitude toward government in general: He wants people to see exactly what he’s up against.

I had no way of knowing that Sanders would be a perfect subject for another, more compelling reason. In the first few weeks of my stay in Washington, Sanders introduced and passed, against very long odds, three important amendment. A fourth very nearly made it and would have passed had it gone to a vote. During this time, Sanders took on powerful adversaries, including Lockheed Martin, Westinghouse, the Export-Import Bank and the Bush administration. And by using the basic tools of democracy – floor votes on clearly posed questions, with the aid of painstakingly built coalitions of allies from both sides of the aisle – he, a lone Independent, beat them all."

Inside the Horror Show That Is Congress

The two articles are like reading 'Atlas Shrugged' and then 'The Iron Heel' back to back. Only this isn't fiction..

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/15/20 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I don't know how much you were following the Occupy movement as it was happening


I followed it VERY closely, it's victories and its failings.
More later, life's getting in the way at the moment.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/15/20 02:22 AM

Just wondering how many are down with Aunt Nancy and Koch money working to re-elect a conservative rebadged Republican over a progressive.
Side note: all progressive primary candidates are barred from the party now.

Wonder why I don’t see much difference between establishment Dems and Republicans these days. I guess we’ve been pretty conditioned into believing there’s differences where it doesn’t matter and no difference where it does.

“It's not the first time this cycle that Pelosi, a California Democrat, has stepped into the primary. In September, as Common Dreams reported, the speaker publicly backed the incumbent during an appearance in Texas.

"Henry Cuellar has an A rating from the NRA, wants more drilling, is anti-choice, fundraised for GOP, is the #1 recipient of private prison money, and receives donations from the Koch family," tweeted Justice Democrats spokesman Waleed Shahid. "Jessica Cisneros is a progressive Democrat. DCCC and Speaker Pelosi, what are you doing?”


Blue no matter who...
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/15/20 04:56 AM

Nice!

BERNIE SANDERS PROMISES TO LEGALIZE MARIJUANA FEDERALLY BY EXECUTIVE ORDER, EXPUNGE RECORDS OF THOSE CONVICTED OF POT CRIMES
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/15/20 11:57 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


I can fix this link so it reads proper.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/15/20 12:14 PM

Thanks Jeff. Even better
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/15/20 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Thanks Jeff. Even better


Surely you knew Bernie was going to legalize pot. He was saying he would four years ago.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/15/20 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I don't know how much you were following the Occupy movement as it was happening but you could hear the distant drums beating all the way in Upstate NY.


My big problem with the Occupy movement wasn't its positions, it was the fact that they insisted they were a "leaderless movement".
Such a thing is impossible, logistically speaking.
So called "leaderless" movements never remain leaderless for very long.

It's another way of saying, "we refuse to focus our message" and "we resist unity", and the result is always the same, a power vacuum, which gets filled sooner rather than later.
And in the case of Occupy, more often than not that vacuum got filled by self-appointed raconteurs either from the anarchist outfits or worse, paid agitators.

All "movements" whether social, economic, religious, or anything else, are by nature a form of leadership, so the notion of a leaderless movement is a contradiction in terms no matter how badly people wish to believe otherwise, and by leaving the position open, Occupy might as well have sent out engraved invitations to people with unsavory cred.

And still, even despite all this, Occupy still managed to do a lot of good. They forced a lot of banks to walk back their zombie loans and scheduled foreclosure evictions, plus they found temporary housing.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/16/20 01:36 PM

Will America vote for a radical candidate?

Quote:
Make no mistake -- President Donald Trump is the most radical choice in the 2020 election. For all the talk about Democrats trying to figure out whether to nominate a "radical" candidate or a "moderate" one, it's, in fact, the Republican Party that has already made its choice to veer so far from the center of American politics that Sens. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren pale in comparison to the man who currently holds the highest office in the land.

The media tends to characterize President Trump by describing him as "unconventional" or "unstable," rather than radical. In doing so, they tend to ignore the most defining element of his presidency and the direction the Republican Party has taken. The pollsters who have focused on asking whether candidates like Sanders or Warren are too radical to be elected should also ask voters whether they think our democracy can withstand the radicalism of Trump for four more years.


Donald Trump - Radical Corporate Socialist
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/16/20 05:19 PM

Quote:
My big problem with the Occupy movement wasn't its positions, it was the fact that they insisted they were a "leaderless movement".


It was never meant to be anything more than a spontaneous occupation of space to make a political point. It wasn't a "movement" it wasn't an "organization" No leaders were needed to organize further protests or to keep the movement moving.

Rather than "leaders" Occupy had instigators.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/16/20 05:45 PM

Donald Trump - Ra dical Corporate Socialist cist Assh*le

Fixed it for ya...

Galts Gulch is NOT a socialist society.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/16/20 07:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Donald Trump - Ra dical Corporate Socialist cist Assh*le

Fixed it for ya...

Galts Gulch is NOT a socialist society.

Man, yer messin' with my counter-Trump propaganda!
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/16/20 08:31 PM

First "Donald Trump - Radical Corporate Socialist" is a GREAT thing to put in from of his name! That one can stick!

Now, the media. Sometimes I think folks don't understand. Media chooses who wins what. I firmly believe that and I also believe its on purpose. They have picked, the Democratic winner in Amy Klobuchar so she is getting a lot of exposure right now. This can change of course (media seems a bit fickle these days)

I used to think that Pete Buttigieg would be anointed by the media but Amy isn't queer, and a female, and they are picking a winner?

I may be of interest that I am wrong a lot of the time (suprise!) I used to bet on my ability at picking winners - I lost my shirt! All that being said one still likes to at least try?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/17/20 02:14 PM

How bout calling it what it is instead. Crony capitalism looting the treasury.
Why involve socialism in something it’s not.
Oh wait....
Red baiting.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/17/20 02:34 PM

The super PAC ‘BeatBernie2020’ has amped up its negative ads recently in the Super Tuesday states.
As you could expect of any super PAC, the money and organization behind it remains opaque. There’s been quit a bit of grass roots investigating being done and, though there’s no concrete reporting of people involved with it, there has been some discovery of its physical location in s Washington D.C. office building.
The building itself is nothing more than rental commercial rental space with half the space occupied by local governmental agencies, the real estate grift ‘WeWork’ and finally ‘Mylan Pharma’

Mylan pharma is the white collared grift where the investors bought the rights to make and distribute Epipens.

Schools, EMT’s and some government building are now required to carry these life saving pens. Mylan has jacked the price because of those requirements. It’s a way to extort your tax dollars thru school and property taxes. Let’s call it crony capitalism, again.
Mylan CEO happens to be Joe Manchin’s daughter Heather Bresch. Should be interesting if confirmed. Gunna be awkward at the senate Christmas party.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/17/20 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
My big problem with the Occupy movement wasn't its positions, it was the fact that they insisted they were a "leaderless movement".


It was never meant to be anything more than a spontaneous occupation of space to make a political point. It wasn't a "movement" it wasn't an "organization" No leaders were needed to organize further protests or to keep the movement moving.

Rather than "leaders" Occupy had instigators.


What they had, and what killed it as a movement, was those Godawful "general assemblies" that took the movement from "stop the oligarchs" to a few hundred hipsters screeching "LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEE."
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/17/20 06:30 PM

actually it is - paid for with our taxes!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 01:09 PM

Sanders rally’s continue to grow in size.

More Than 17,000 Pack Bernie Sanders’ Tacoma, Washington Rally
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 01:16 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Sanders rally’s continue to grow in size.

More Than 17,000 Pack Bernie Sanders’ Tacoma, Washington Rally

Traffic was bad getting home to Tacoma last night. The 5 Freeway south was a parking lot from Hwy 18 to the Dome.

I took the back way and got home nearly the same time I always do. smile
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 04:44 PM

Krystal Ball dropping alot of truth bombs this morning. What should have been painfully obvious to the 'smart set' has ben incomprehensible for the most part.




I think the Dems will steal it in the brokered convention. They will go with a fascist rather than let a leftist win. I took a rack of sh!t by stating Dems are, in fact, more illiberal than Republicans when it comes to primaries. I wouldn't expect any difference in a brokered convention. I look forward to warming my hands to the fire
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


I think the Dems will steal it in the brokered convention. They will go with a fascist rather than let a leftist win. I took a rack of sh!t by stating Dems are, in fact, more illiberal than Republicans when it comes to primaries. I wouldn't expect any difference in a brokered convention. I look forward to warming my hands to the fire


You guys are more Trump than Trump, really.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 05:50 PM

I liked you better free versing Hunter Thompson.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 06:40 PM

Quote:
You guys are more Trump than Trump, really.

Does it frighten you that Bernie might win?

Why?
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 06:55 PM

I think I am getting even more confused. I have now read that "Bernie is winning" "all the wins of Bernie", etc. As far as I can tell he has actually had two seriously marginal wins and that's it. I will give in on the crowds for Bernie but the simple fact remains. Two candidates, Ami and Mayor Whatever, both of which are running in the same space if put together beat the hell out of Bernie. When you add in Bloomberg it really gets serious. From what I can gather the far left wing of the Democratic party is approximately 20% to 25% of the Democratic party.

This being the case the major problem of those who don't want Bernie is that they have too many choices to make and have split up 75% of the Democratic party. So, them not with Bernie, but part of the Democratic party, will, at some point, lose or start cutting deals should the Dems beat Trump. In that realm it will turn into a who gets what sort of deal. Lots to deal with there; vice president, a number of agencies up for grabs, state, etc.

I suspect that will get kinda interesting all on its own?
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
You guys are more Trump than Trump, really.

Does it frighten you that Bernie might win?

Why?


No. Bernie is one of my two preferred candidates, and events have led me to believe that I will be voting for him in the primary (Warren is 6' under water and sinking fast). I have no problem with Bernie, and I'd be perfectly happy if he won. Thrilled, as a matter of fact.

It's the toxicity of some of his followers that is of concern.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I liked you better free versing Hunter Thompson.


Um, what?

I'm a big fan of his, but I am unsure what you are talking about.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I think I am getting even more confused. I have now read that "Bernie is winning" "all the wins of Bernie", etc. As far as I can tell he has actually had two seriously marginal wins and that's it. I will give in on the crowds for Bernie but the simple fact remains. Two candidates, Ami and Mayor Whatever, both of which are running in the same space if put together beat the hell out of Bernie. When you add in Bloomberg it really gets serious. From what I can gather the far left wing of the Democratic party is approximately 20% to 25% of the Democratic party.

This being the case the major problem of those who don't want Bernie is that they have too many choices to make and have split up 75% of the Democratic party. So, them not with Bernie, but part of the Democratic party, will, at some point, lose or start cutting deals should the Dems beat Trump. In that realm it will turn into a who gets what sort of deal. Lots to deal with there; vice president, a number of agencies up for grabs, state, etc.

I suspect that will get kinda interesting all on its own?


So long as the center vote stays split, Sanders is ahead. And I don't see any of the other center candidates dropping out for the benefit of another.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 07:49 PM

Your recent ‘your the enemy’ or ‘your too toxic’ doesn’t really say much other than some kind of ‘if your not with us your against us’ philosophy, I guess. It’s not really saying anything as far as I can tell except to throw mean girl shade or display some indignation.
Whats your point? Your aggrieved?

I’d rather read your initial free verse stylings is all I’m saying. At least it’s clear there isn’t one.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 08:55 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Your recent ‘your the enemy’ or ‘your too toxic’ doesn’t really say much other than some kind of ‘if your not with us your against us’ philosophy, I guess. It’s not really saying anything as far as I can tell except to throw mean girl shade or display some indignation.
Whats your point? Your aggrieved?

I’d rather read your initial free verse stylings is all I’m saying. At least it’s clear there isn’t one.


Well, what of it? You are exerting a great deal of effort to make sure that anyone not entirely sold on Sanders will hate Sanders.

I am only curious as to your motivation.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/18/20 11:22 PM

I’m not here to sell anyone on my choice. I doubt anyone’s mind is changed due to online posting.

Unless it’s the ingenious Slavs posting..

I enjoy pointing out contradictions and what I view as manufactured BS. Like ‘Bernie bro’s narratives, liberal ‘norms and values’ Hypocrisy, historical evidence to contrary economic or political fictions, etc...

Convincing liberals and conservatives on who to vote for is a fools errand. They will vote their economic/class interest as I do mine.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
So long as the center vote stays split, Sanders is ahead. And I don't see any of the other center candidates dropping out for the benefit of another.


It reminds me very much of a movie I saw four years-ish ago.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 03:43 AM

Very much so. Both parties have lost legitimacy with larger numbers of voters and the Democratic Party can’t resolve around a winning candidate to beat back a popular insurgent.

While Trump had broad popular support with the base that republicans took for granted, Sanders has broad popular support with similar dismissed base of voters while fending off the Democratic Party establishment and Republican Plutocrat set against him in the Democratic primary.

It seems like only yesterday that the complaints of Sanders not being a Democrat was being argued against his primary bid.

Bloomberg’s candidacy, not so much. Funny how that works in the self styled ‘left’ party.

Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 09:47 AM


Poll after poll, Bernie leads the Dem pack for the nomination, and beats Trump by +2. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 09:51 AM



Even Nate Silvers says it's Bernie. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 09:55 AM



Who should be Bernie's running mate? Hmm

Some say Stacy Abrams, but I dunno....she is very smart, but other than that, I think too many people will be scared that if something happens to Bernie to have her on the Ticket.

Elizabeth maybe? Hmm I just don't know. gobsmacked All I want is a Dem in the Oval Office after noon on January 20, 2021. laugh
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 04:48 PM

I think Amy Klobuchar would be a decent running mate because (A) she has the endorsement and respect of the Minnesota DFL, which was Paul Wellstone and Al Franken's old bunch, (B) she's "Minnesota Nice", and (C) she's competent.

Amy is like Marge Gunderson in the movie "Fargo"...a little bit flat-footed, a bit boring, but determined as heck, dontcha know. Just wind her up and she'll go out and getcha the bad guys, you betcha.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 05:01 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

It seems like only yesterday that the complaints of Sanders not being a Democrat was being argued against his primary bid.

Bloomberg’s candidacy, not so much. Funny how that works in the self styled ‘left’ party.



Okay okay okay - guilty as charged.
Now that we have a Republican (Bloomberg) running as a Dem, it's almost as if there's a muffled voice in the darkness muttering about how "Dems simply cannot be trusted, so we'd better send a Republican over there to run as a Dem for appearance purposes."

Oh great, vote for the Republican, or the other Republican...such choices!

So...now why should Bernie "not being a real Democrat" even be an issue anymore? Bloomberg sure as sh!t isn't one.

Chunks, I have to hand it to you...you called this one early.
And with Tom Perez channeling Wasserman Schultz, apparently it doesn't even matter anymore, just keep the scary scary lefties away.

OMG TEH SOCIALISMZ!!!

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 05:06 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I do know that, and its a problem. On the upside he hasn't had a heart attack lately <G>


Heart attack, schmart attack..he had something a gazillion old farts get. You can't really rule it an "according to Hoyle" heart attack.
They put in a stent and told him to take an aspirin every day...no heart muscle damage.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 06:07 PM

Quote:
Now that we have a Republican (Bloomberg) running as a Dem


Bloomberg is a lifelong Democrat who switched parties in 2001 to run for mayor. In 2007 he switched again and became an Independent. In 2018 he became a Democrat again.

I don't doubt his bonafides as a Democrat. I just don't really trust Billionaire Democrats any more than I trust Billionaire Republicans.
Cut from the same cloth so to speak. Republican cloth. Neoliberal cloth. All woven at the same mill. Sold in both colors.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 06:18 PM

Quote:
Who should be Bernie's running mate?


It's not too early to wonder but it's probably too early to speculate.
Traditionally it's a position chosen to garner votes from the nominee's detractors, someone who will draw votes the nominee wouldn't otherwise get.

In Bernie's case...a moderate. If he's polling badly with people of color...then a person of color.

If he wants to win big...Michelle Obama.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 07:18 PM

I very much doubt that Bernie's purity corps would allow him to have a moderate. I suspect he would choose one of the pure females to do that.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/19/20 09:10 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I very much doubt that Bernie's purity corps would allow him to have a moderate. I suspect he would choose one of the pure females to do that.

Good lord, man...have you gone completely off your rocker?

Purity corps? One of the pure females?

The hired help all likes Bernie, it's a problem for the bosses.

Mayor Pete might be an excellent choice. While he is indeed a moderate, if he got the nomination himself he would be the most progressive candidate ever to do so.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 01:49 AM

Chunk;
The difference between Bernie and Bloomberg is that Bernie has consistently refused to actually join the Democratic party whilst Bloomberg had no problem to do just that. The only time he was a Republican was when he ran and served as mayor of New York. At least he joins the party he wants to represent - unlike Bernie. He belongs to no party and is an independent.

I don't consider that to be right. If you don't want to be a Democrat then you shouldn't want to run as a Democrat and the Democratic party should not allow it either. It just makes no sense! Under this sort of deal we could have a full blowed Nazi, self proclaimed, run as a Democrat!

<sigh>
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 02:31 AM

Hey look, another Sanders/Nazi comparison.

We covered this wonky, officious rules committee protesting of Sanders being a declared Democrat or not and wether he’s allowed to run under the Dem ticket.

He is, get over it.

S’funny, I don’t recall your ‘rules’ indignation when the DNC set aside individual donations requirements to allow Bloomberg to attend the debate.

Crickets.....

You want rules when it suits you, that’s all you’ve been arguing as far as I can tell.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 02:57 AM

You brought up a good point, JGW, of Bloomberg and others less well known politicians moving freely between both parties.

Kinda bolsters the argument that we only have one political party with two factions.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 03:20 AM

Heck Jeff, we all get fooled by these politicians. It’s why they’re politicians and we’re not.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 04:10 AM

One thing Sanders supporters heard at the Vegas debate was 5 candidates state flatly that they will be staying in the race, effectively denying Sanders the ability to collect a majority of delegates, and wanting ‘the process’ To play out at the convention.

That means 500 unelected superdelegates throwing it to their donors candidate.

They just lost Sanders supporters in the general and handed it to Trump in the election.

And they’re fine with it, by the way. The are commodifying political loss and looking to 2024. More apps, more consultancies, more conspiracies to spin out of the garbage channels, etc, etc.

Said it before, saying it again, the Democratic Party are professional flop artists that have triangulated loss into profit by holding voters hostage.

IMO.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 04:48 AM

Quote:
5 candidates state flatly that they will be staying in the race,


We'll see if that holds true after Super Tuesday.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Now that we have a Republican (Bloomberg) running as a Dem


Bloomberg is a lifelong Democrat who switched parties in 2001 to run for mayor. In 2007 he switched again and became an Independent. In 2018 he became a Democrat again.

I don't doubt his bonafides as a Democrat. I just don't really trust Billionaire Democrats any more than I trust Billionaire Republicans.
Cut from the same cloth so to speak. Republican cloth. Neoliberal cloth. All woven at the same mill. Sold in both colors.





Well he certainly earned Mike the Manchurian Candidate tonight.
He is toast.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 06:39 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Chunk;
The difference between Bernie and Bloomberg is that Bernie has consistently refused to actually join the Democratic party whilst Bloomberg had no problem to do just that. The only time he was a Republican was when he ran and served as mayor of New York. At least he joins the party he wants to represent - unlike Bernie. He belongs to no party and is an independent.

I don't consider that to be right. If you don't want to be a Democrat then you shouldn't want to run as a Democrat and the Democratic party should not allow it either. It just makes no sense! Under this sort of deal we could have a full blowed Nazi, self proclaimed, run as a Democrat!

<sigh>


LOL, If Bloomberg is considered to be a Democrat, then Bernie's a Democrat, sorry.
And Tom Perez is an absolute POS.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
5 candidates state flatly that they will be staying in the race,


We'll see if that holds true after Super Tuesday.


Yeah, it's a pile of cash to stay in, and the donations dry up if you're not in a position to win, and most especially if you're an obvious spoiler.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 03:56 PM

Mebbe, dunno.

Bloomberg’s takeover gambit is very much a hostile one that you would expect from the capitalist class. He’s not only buying up all the talent but he’s telling other donors to sit it out. He’s got this. Last night was the previeW

The other candidates can read a room and, more importantly, read a convention center and, with the exception of rules ratf#cking, the rest might be seeing the second play of not winning the primary. The consolation of turning it into a payday by leveraging your delegate votes.

I think I mentioned my suspicion of the ‘brokered convention’ option months ago.

Anyone who’s bothered to read the Podesta emails can imagine this as the firewall, much the same as was attempted with Trump by republicans.

I’d put even money on them handing it to someone else in the second round. Hard to say no to big Mo.



Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 05:37 PM

Quote:
Hard to say no to big Mo.


Yeah but...Dems are going to find themselves between a rock and a hard place if they try it. They need the left to win. There was talk in 2016 about a brokered Republican convention. But they needed the racist assh*les to win. Shoe's on the other foot this time around...Dems need the socialist assh*les to win.

Being a socialist assh*le this makes me very happy. Big Mo has held the gavel far too long.

If Bernie has a plurality of delegates going into the convention he will walk out The Candidate.

The Party will do everything in its power to stop that.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 06:11 PM

So are you betting no second round brokered convention, Gregor?
Just curious for the book making aspect of it.

I’m leaning that they will the more I think on it.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 06:51 PM

I won $5 betting against a brokered Republican convention in 2016.

But it was a lot later in the game.

My current model shows Klobuchar, Biden, and Bloomberg out after Super Tuesday. If not out of the race, then out of the picture. If the Party was gonna slip in a dark horse like Bloomberg, they needed a great orator. They needed charisma. They needed charm and wit.

They needed the man to match up with the advertising campaign.

They got this instead...
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 10:08 PM

"They need the left to win" Interesting - that.......

Given that it seems that the left is the group most likely to bail I would submit that they are a smaller group, in the Democratic party, than the middle, etc. I think you are referring, as the left, those who support Bernie. I doubt others will bail and those who refuse all if Bernie is not anointed. They have already proven they will either not vote at all or vote for Trump in such circumstances.

My own attitude that, if that happens then screw 'em.

I just want Trump gone - all the rest of that political stuff is actually of no real interest to me.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 10:29 PM

Yeah,

Your Sanders/nazi/Trump voter axis of denial is humerus but hardly relevant to anyone but the well off.

People have real needs and problems so it may be that there’s a little more at stake than your political sensibilities being offended by the current occupant of the White House.

Apparently, addressing those needs and problems from the left is one big blob without any differentiation than if it is being made from the far right.

Derisive dismissal has actually played into the lefts hands. I’m not sure your mischaracterization and smearing of left wing politics will do anything for you, JGW, cept display your contempt.

Meanwhile...

Backing in California Poll Hints at Big Delegate Haul

That’s a lot of lefty crybabies....


Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/20/20 11:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
I think Amy Klobuchar would be a decent running mate because (A) she has the endorsement and respect of the Minnesota DFL, which was Paul Wellstone and Al Franken's old bunch, (B) she's "Minnesota Nice", and (C) she's competent.

Amy is like Marge Gunderson in the movie "Fargo"...a little bit flat-footed, a bit boring, but determined as heck, dontcha know. Just wind her up and she'll go out and getcha the bad guys, you betcha.


Coming from agreeably a conservative perspective, it does strike me that Kloubachar would be a good pick to round out the ticket, and would be a pick that wouldn't alienate many people.

OTOH, she also wouldn't bring that much to the ticket in terms of coalition building. Bernie has young African Americans, but, I think, (It's been a while since I checked) still lags behind the "traditional Dem" types in picking up older minority voters.

I don't know, however, if Stacey Abrams solves that for him.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 12:15 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Your Sanders/nazi/Trump voter axis of denial is humerus but hardly relevant to anyone but the well off.

That hit my funny bone!

Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 01:19 AM

You should see my texting.
Grammarian nightmare.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 12:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
My current model shows Klobuchar, Biden, and Bloomberg out after Super Tuesday. If not out of the race, then out of the picture. If the Party was gonna slip in a dark horse like Bloomberg, they needed a great orator. They needed charisma. They needed charm and wit.

They needed the man to match up with the advertising campaign.

They got this instead...

In another post about Bernie winning the nom that i wrote, in those numbers, I see Bloomberg only winning Oklahoma. smile
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 03:30 PM

I’ll always like Klobuchar for going after that office rat and stomping him with her sensible shoes. She’s won some warmth, I think, from the Sanders crowd.

Ditto, Warren, for that beat down she gave the business tycoon. She could have been formidable, maybe unassailable, to Sanders if she brought that game from the beginning.

Both those Ladies ought to get banking/accounting positions and thrown at the pentagon like a Malatov. An organization of contractors that hundreds of auditors cant account for decades now.

A sanders administration would be nice to think about for a change. But that convention.... I think it’s gunna be rough.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 07:08 PM

Hopefully all of you guys who know what's going to happen have gone to predictit and bet all your money? You will be RICH! Then, again, its also possible to lose your shirts. Been there, done that..........
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 07:30 PM

I wonder if anybody has taken a look at Bernie's work in the United States Senate. He has run up quite a record of doing nothing pretty much outstripping just about anybody else. He is, if nothing else, a virtual expert in legislative failure. This being the case why in the world would anybody believe a single one of his promises when he has consistently failed for years.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357/report-card/2019

Basically Ami Klobuchar beats his pants off!
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 08:03 PM

Quote:
But that convention.... I think it’s gunna be rough.


Maybe...maybe not. It's too early in the voting process to start worrying about it. We're basically in a holding pattern until Super Tuesday. Nevada and South Carolina will likely add more confusion and turmoil but we should emerge with some clarity after March 3rd.

This is Bernie's chance to catch fire. His final chance. The stars and planets are aligned, the winds favourable. We just have to wait for the actual events to unfold...
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
But that convention.... I think it’s gunna be rough.


Maybe...maybe not. It's too early in the voting process to start worrying about it. We're basically in a holding pattern until Super Tuesday. Nevada and South Carolina will likely add more confusion and turmoil but we should emerge with some clarity after March 3rd.

This is Bernie's chance to catch fire. His final chance. The stars and planets are aligned, the winds favourable. We just have to wait for the actual events to unfold...


At current, FiveThirtyEight has "No One" leading for "who will have a majority of delegates going into the convention" (with 42%).

Bernie is coming in second with 36%, and after that it's a steep drop to Biden at 11%.


I think the key question is: Do Anti-Sanders Democrats pull off what Anti-Trump Republicans couldn't, and unify behind a single non-Sanders candidate, or do three contenders continue to split them so that Sanders/Trump can continue to win with a plurality of support.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
But that convention.... I think it’s gunna be rough.


Maybe...maybe not. It's too early in the voting process to start worrying about it. We're basically in a holding pattern until Super Tuesday. Nevada and South Carolina will likely add more confusion and turmoil but we should emerge with some clarity after March 3rd.

This is Bernie's chance to catch fire. His final chance. The stars and planets are aligned, the winds favourable. We just have to wait for the actual events to unfold...


At current, FiveThirtyEight has "No One" leading for "who will have a majority of delegates going into the convention" (with 42%).

Bernie is coming in second with 36%, and after that it's a steep drop to Biden at 11%.


I think the key question is: Do Anti-Sanders Democrats pull off what Anti-Trump Republicans couldn't, and unify behind a single non-Sanders candidate, or do three contenders continue to split them so that Sanders/Trump can continue to win with a plurality of support.


All you have to do is talk two of them into quitting.

None of them seem ready to do so.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 09:50 PM

He’s a front runner in amendments, attracting bipartisan support for them to boot.
Or are we not looking at that? What’s the rules say?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/21/20 09:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl


All you have to do is talk two of them into quitting.

None of them seem ready to do so.


How does having two candidates dropping out stop Sanders achieving a plurality?
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
But that convention.... I think it’s gunna be rough.


Maybe...maybe not. It's too early in the voting process to start worrying about it. We're basically in a holding pattern until Super Tuesday. Nevada and South Carolina will likely add more confusion and turmoil but we should emerge with some clarity after March 3rd.

This is Bernie's chance to catch fire. His final chance. The stars and planets are aligned, the winds favourable. We just have to wait for the actual events to unfold...


At current, FiveThirtyEight has "No One" leading for "who will have a majority of delegates going into the convention" (with 42%).

Bernie is coming in second with 36%, and after that it's a steep drop to Biden at 11%.


I think the key question is: Do Anti-Sanders Democrats pull off what Anti-Trump Republicans couldn't, and unify behind a single non-Sanders candidate, or do three contenders continue to split them so that Sanders/Trump can continue to win with a plurality of support.


All you have to do is talk two of them into quitting.

None of them seem ready to do so.


It reminds me very much of the GOP side in 2016. Everyone wants to be the candidate others drop out to support against the insurgent who's interested in burning down the party, but who you think would be a disaster.... and no one who thinks that other candidate would be a disaster is willing to sacrifice their own campaign to stop it. Vanity, Obstinance, and Self-Interest.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 04:59 AM

Quote:
At current, FiveThirtyEight has "No One" leading for "who will have a majority of delegates going into the convention" (with 42%).

I swear to God, Right-wingers are the biggest bullshyte artists. mad



...just like I wrote on 02/19/20. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 05:02 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Do Anti-Sanders Democrats pull off what Anti-Trump Republicans couldn't, and unify behind a single non-Sanders candidate, or do three contenders continue to split them so that Sanders/Trump can continue to win with a plurality of support.

Get used to saying President Sanders, bro. laugh
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 03:45 PM


At work the other day, I discussing all things politics with a co-worker and I said that in 2016, it should have been Bernie, but Debbie Wasserman-Schultz made sure it was "her turn."

My co-worker in life said that it is not often that people get a second chance to vote for the right person - it will happen this time.

No truer words were spoken. smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 06:14 PM

In 2016 people got a second chance to vote for Hillary Clinton who was narrowly defeated by Obama in the 2008 Primaries.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 06:38 PM

Bernie is starting to sound a lot like Trump. Basically "everybody is picking on me" is his basic whine. Now, however, the newspapers are also picking on him. The battle now seems to be who is the one most abused by everybody. The difference in who has the power and that would be Trump. I have full confidence that, should Bernie win (unlikely), he will start telling everybody how to live their lives too.

Given his history in Congress why in the world would anybody assume he could get ANY legislation passed?

Just wondering. Hell, he didn't even bother to show up to vote over half the time.............
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 07:21 PM

Quote:
Bernie is starting to sound a lot like Trump. Basically "everybody is picking on me" is his basic whine.

Link please? Video maybe? I'd like to see Bernie behaving as badly as Trump!

Quote:
Hell, he didn't even bother to show up to vote over half the time.............


Sanders missed 2.5% of votes (15 of 599 votes) in the 115th Congress.

Are you just making this stuff up JGW? Why not attack Bernie's policies if you don't like them rather than attacking the man?
Here's where Bernie stands on the issues.

You want more brass tacks on his economic proposals?
Read this from from Investopedia

You aren't going to find the word socialism anywhere because Bernie is not a socialist nor are his policies or proposals.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 08:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
In 2016 people got a second chance to vote for Hillary Clinton who was narrowly defeated by Obama in the 2008 Primaries.

Hillery smillery. coffee
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 09:19 PM

Bernie Shcmernie...coffee
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 09:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Bernie Shcmernie...coffee

You misspelled Schmernie... failpail
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 09:55 PM


That's future President-elect Bernie Sanders, Greger. He's winning Nevada.

smile
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 10:14 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick

That's future President-elect Bernie Sanders, Greger. He's winning Nevada.

smile


Not if the corporate sponsors of the party have they’re way. They’re called super delegates.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 10:42 PM

He's actually killing it in Nevada. Only 2.38% reporting so far, but he's getting almost 57%. I think a caucus ends early when one candidate gets over 50% of the votes. So they can quit voting and report their results.

Evidently all the food service workers think they would be better off with Bernie than paying union dues to keep their medical plan.

If he gets to the convention with over 50%, the super-delegates won't get their second ballot.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/22/20 11:31 PM

Seeing the same here. Has the lions share of the casino precincts with wide margins.
Bellagio, Mandalay, Park MFM, Rio and Wynn went to Sanders.
Tied at Harrah’s.
Lost Paris.

Entrance polls have him getting over 50% of Latino vote.
Rank and file broke hard for Sanders with Culinary Union.

Clinton camp declaring it a victory for Putin....
Warren was doomed hiring those people.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:07 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Clinton camp declaring it a victory for Putin....

Hillary needs to pipe-down. gobsmacked Mouthy broad. coffee
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:11 AM

Sanders declared winner with 56.1% of the vote.

That’s whatcha call one of them there landslides I think.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:15 AM

Warren drops behind Steyer. She’s burning 2 dollars for every one she takes in. Now taking PAC money. Needs to get to the convention for the pay day I guess.
Heard she’s going to take out a loan for funding.

She has bad campaign people with bad instincts.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:19 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Sanders declared winner with 56.1% of the vote.

That’s whatcha call one of them there landslides I think.

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz is 100% responsible for giving us Trump. gobsmacked
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:21 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Warren...Heard she’s going to take out a loan for funding.

She has bad campaign people with bad instincts.

Warren already did take out a loan per NPR. She got $5M since the debate and paid the loan back.

Nevada will not help her. Hmm
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:22 AM

I don't think her own instincts are that good.

Bernie's on fire though. And I don't think there's anybody left to put it out.
Posted by: Ken Condon

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:22 AM

Yes but...before you get all hot and bothered..

Can Bernie get the necessary electoral votes in Florida, Michigan, Iowa, Ohio and Pennsylvania? Forgive me if I missed a phew....

That is the only thing that matters..... since the popular vote means nothing.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:27 AM


Bernie right now...

Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Yes but...before you get all hot and bothered..

Can Bernie get the necessary electoral votes in Florida, Michigan, Iowa, Ohio and Pennsylvania? Forgive me if I missed a phew....

That is the only thing that matters..... since the popular vote means nothing.

Nate Silve has Bernie v Fatass at +2 for Bernie. Close race, but Bernie wins.

smile
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:31 AM

Quote:
Can Bernie get the necessary electoral votes


Yes he can. Once a populist movement starts it's almost impossible to stop.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 01:35 AM

This is literally torches and pitchforks winding their way up to the castle...
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 07:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger


You aren't going to find the word socialism anywhere because Bernie is not a socialist nor are his policies or proposals.



It took me a long long lo-o-o-o-ong time to figure out that Bernie loves to mock the bougies by grinning and saying he's a Democratic Socialist.

He really does need to hire some very skilled satirists to craft some elegant snark that can torpedo Trump's U-boat attacks.

Surprise!! Trump IS the bourgeoisie! ROTFMOL
Don't dehumanize Trump, take pity on him!

The bougies have now begun to lay depth charges under their own economics and it's about to explode in their faces.

And as another Ranter recently hinted at..eventually Trump will only be able to claim full employment if "homeless beggar" is classified as a job, like in India!
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 05:47 PM

Bernie seems to stand on both sides of being a socialist. https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/14-things-bernie-sanders-has-said-about-socialism-120265 Its a bit odd. Sometimes he is, sometimes he is not. The upshoot is that he has been labled a socialist and it has stuck. The republicans are overjoyed at his running for the Dems and I suspect they will roll over him and spit him out. If he gets the nomination I will vote for him and expend a LOT of hope but, at least right now, think he will not only lose the election but will also lose the senate AND the house due, basically, to his constant claim of democratic socialism.

I also find it really interesting that the Democrats have actually allowed him to run as a socialist, thereby painting the entire party as socialist whilst refusing to actually joint the Democratic party. that one confuses bigtime. When you add in his failures as a senator (towards the bottom on ALL things), inability to vote or attend over 60% of the time, etc. and then adding in the simple fact that Bernie has not been called on ANY of this stuff completely confuses me.

I have said it before and will continue to say it. The Democrats have not demonstrated, in any meaningful way, that they actually plan to win the election on any level I can see. Instead the candidates have done all they can to wreck one another (except for Bernie) and are close to being broke. One can only wonder?

Just saying..........
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 06:37 PM

Quote:
The Democrats have not demonstrated, in any meaningful way, that they actually plan to win the election on any level I can see.


Here's a novel thought...Democrats should run on the issues. Like Bernie. It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what your enemies call you, if you align your platform with the most important issues facing voters today you might find yourself leading in the primaries and predicted to become the Democratic nominee and the next President. Other candidates have attacked Trump relentlessly...where are they now?

JGW, I think the biggest take away from your linked article is this...

Quote:
“To me, socialism doesn’t mean state ownership of everything, by any means, it means creating a nation, and a world, in which all human beings have a decent standard of living.”


Are there quotes in the article that you find to be disqualifying?
Quotes which imply that he is indeed the the communist agitator you imagine him to be?
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/23/20 09:50 PM



Bernie seems to be ahead in the WA State Dem Primary on 03/10 +5 over Joe in second place, then Warren. smile
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/24/20 03:48 PM

Game over.....

The golden sphere oracle has spoken. He is the one.



A good speech though. Rousing, IMO
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/24/20 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Bernie seems to stand on both sides of being a socialist. Sometimes he is, sometimes he is not.


A purity test for socialism? ROTFMOL
Oh my God, what's next, the "No True Socialist" trope?
Socialism includes taxpayer funded services, yes?
But folks are now insisting that federal highways, public schools, libraries, municipal utilities, the Post Office, fire departments and police are not a form of quasi-socialist applications of goods and services.

Each and every one of the above has and does exist in privately owned form, even right here in the United States.
I don't even need to list the examples because almost everyone here (I think) has at least some exposure to privatized versions.
Been on a toll road lately?

And now Bernie is being accused of "not being a pure enough socialist?" Why?
FDR was a socialist and so was Ike Eisenhower, because he expanded many parts of FDR's plans. So was Kennedy, Johnson, even Nixon.
My God man, Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency!

OMG TEH SOCIALISMZ!!!!



Brother John Birch is still scaring ordinary hardworking patriotic Americans almost 65 years later...over the definition of a word.

Socialism is SOCIAL and, yes Virginia, it takes many forms and is influenced by many different kinds of people. An authoritarian can use it for evil while a liberal can use it to ensure the general welfare of society.

We are witnessing firsthand what happens when a deranged authoritarian cult leader harnesses what he claims is conservatism.

Please let go of the paranoia and the purity tests, they simply aren't necessary and to be frank, we need to concern ourselves a lot more with whether or not Mr. Sanders will be able to put together a team of competent and capable people who will understand how he wants to apply his platform as a force for doing good and removing harm.
We will need it in the coming years more than ever, to heal the damage being done right now.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/24/20 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I wonder if anybody has taken a look at Bernie's work in the United States Senate. He has run up quite a record of doing nothing pretty much outstripping just about anybody else. He is, if nothing else, a virtual expert in legislative failure. This being the case why in the world would anybody believe a single one of his promises when he has consistently failed for years.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357/report-card/2019

Basically Ami Klobuchar beats his pants off!

The Amendment King gets things done the best way an independent can, and by the way, I would argue that Amy Klobuchar would find a lot of ways to be very happy serving in a Sanders administration, specifically because she demonstrates excellent legislative capabilities.

One thing is guaranteed, and you can take this to any betting operation you like:
If a moderate Democrat comes to the White House and attempts to "reach across the aisle" to the pack of angry honey badgers in the GOP Congress, they will pull back a bloody stump and they will be crushed.

Frankly, I am much more concerned about stomping out the Mitch McConnell Trump-GOP Senate majority and its House exponent so completely that it triggers a post November GOP circular firing squad and puts Trumpian authoritarianism to sleep for the rest of the century.

If we can achieve that, and an Amy Klobuchar is in the White House, I will not view it as the end of the world because it denied Sanders his POTUS tenure. But even if Sanders wins and we shatter the Trumpian juggernaut in both chambers, he will still have to temper his platform to be acceptable to the wide range of Democrats who will be serving under him.


Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/24/20 08:59 PM

Quote:
“To me, socialism doesn’t mean state ownership of everything, by any means, it means creating a nation, and a world, in which all human beings have a decent standard of living.”



Oh, the BASTARD.



Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/24/20 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Bernie seems to stand on both sides of being a socialist.


Good. The last thing we need is another damn extremist.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/25/20 12:37 AM


Media is going crazy over Bernie's 60 Minutes interview last night.

(I've linked the interview above.)

There is no way any sane or rational person can object to the interview. gobsmacked

Am I wrong? Hmm
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/25/20 04:41 AM

Trump thinks it would be a great idea if we just "get rid of judges".

He sure is confirming them at lightning speed, though.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/25/20 05:03 AM

I'm still not convinced he's getting the judges he wants. Sure some of his picks have a hard on for Trump, but what happens after Trump is gone? These are hard-line conservatives. They are likely to be harder on criminals than so-called Liberal judges. Isn't this the exact opposite of what Trump wants?

There isn't a huge pool of corrupt judges to draw on for higher office. Conservative judges join the Federalist Society. Corrupt judges? Do they have a support group?
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/25/20 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I'm still not convinced he's getting the judges he wants. Sure some of his picks have a hard on for Trump, but what happens after Trump is gone? These are hard-line conservatives. They are likely to be harder on criminals than so-called Liberal judges. Isn't this the exact opposite of what Trump wants?

There isn't a huge pool of corrupt judges to draw on for higher office. Conservative judges join the Federalist Society. Corrupt judges? Do they have a support group?


Apparently, most of them are dominionists.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/25/20 07:46 PM

I think that Bernie has a LOT of baggage. The Republicans have backed off saying anything bad about him as they REALLY want him to be the face of the Democratic party. He might even get there. Not unlike the Republicans and Trump the Democrats seem to fear Bernie and have left him pretty much alone in favor of beating up on each other. Anyway, I believe, the Dems don't stand a snowball's chance of winning. I am not alone as a majority of Dems feel exactly the same way but have so split up their vote that Bernie is likely to take the prize. Its pretty interesting. The far left is delighted to only talk to one another and claim victory as often as they can. However, that being said, the numbers remain as do the questions.

My own thought is that after the Dems anoint Bernie the Republicans will go after him big time and its not gonna be pretty. The only good thing is that, perhaps, the Trump economy will start to collapse which would probably help the Dems (my hope).
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 12:39 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
...He might even get there...

Bernie will get there. It'll be apparent to everyone about 9pm PST on 03/03/20.

Hmm
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 12:58 AM

Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
The far left is delighted to only talk to one another and claim victory as often as they can. However, that being said, the numbers remain as do the questions.


Quick question:

Who’s the last democratic primary candidate to have won the popular vote of all three initial state primary races?

Just wondering if anything objective enters your world view. The more bent and unhinged conservative criticism becomes the more rational Sanders sounds in comparison.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: jgw
The far left is delighted to only talk to one another and claim victory as often as they can. However, that being said, the numbers remain as do the questions.


Quick question:

Who’s the last democratic primary candidate to have won the popular vote of all three initial state primary races?

Just wondering if anything objective enters your world view. The more bent and unhinged conservative criticism becomes the more rational Sanders sounds in comparison.




It is worth mentioning that only 6% of the delegates have been committed.

That being said, things are moving along nicely, from my POV.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 03:38 PM

Question still stands.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 05:17 PM

Al Gore. Who lost to Bush.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 05:57 PM

Good answer!

The way I see it, Gore was heavily backed by the party while Bradley seemed almost a token challenger.

Almost the opposite appears to be happening now. Sanders running as the insurgent against the establishment clown car.

Maybe opposite results in the general?

I feel like we’re in George Costanza’s ‘opposite’ world.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 06:31 PM

Sanders is the only candidate of either party to ever win the first three states in a competitive election.

I think that's the answer you were really looking for. Gore only did it because he had no competition to speak of.

Backlash from the Clinton administration got us GW Bush.

Backlash from the Obama administration got us Trump.

Stands to reason that backlash from the Trump admin might get us Sanders.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Sanders is the only candidate of either party to ever win the first three states in a competitive election.

I think that's the answer you were really looking for. Gore only did it because he had no competition to speak of.

Backlash from the Clinton administration got us GW Bush.

Backlash from the Obama administration got us Trump.

Stands to reason that backlash from the Trump admin might get us Sanders.


People vote dem/left when things are bad. When things are good, people get selfish and "moralistic" and immediately vote for the GOP/right. Since they don't have bad times to fight, they have to be able to "fight" - or just plain pick on - people lower down the ladder than themselves.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 06:56 PM

The question kinda becomes when has a far left candidate not won the first three states against 5 moderates? It looks as if Bernie will win it as the moderate crowd (bloomberg, ami, mayor whatever, biden and steyer).

All the moderates have already said they were going to stick it out until the bitter end. Not particularly bright. One would have thought they could have sat down and decided who to run and what positions they could get if he/she won the election. This way, I fear, the Democrats will lose the election and get the opportunity to live with, and accept responsibility for, 4 more years of Trump the Terrible.

Of course there is the inspiration of 5 candidates sacrificing for pride, history and a serious lack of sense.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw

All the moderates have already said they were going to stick it out until the bitter end.


So Sanders wins the primary.

Then we find out what the national character really is. If the American people put Trump back in, then they are not worth fighting for.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 08:00 PM

Yep - then the problem becomes beating Trump. Given that Trump has, pretty much, pissed off, or disgusted, just about any group you can think of Bernie may actually have a chance. Bernie's promises are, basically, lies. So, hopefully, folks are already used to a president that lies all the time so they just might forgive Bernie when all his plans goto dust. I am basing this on the simple fact that Bernie is a noted utter failure as a United States senator/legislator and is at the bottom of virtually every measurement in that regard. There is no reason to assume he would change if president.

I am not really convinced that any of the candidates is interested in much, other than just being president. We will, of course, see in the fullness of time. On reflection I suspect Bloomberg, Mayor Pete, Ami, and Steyer might actually want to do something.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 08:55 PM

Even if President Sanders is way out in left field, he can't pass laws. He can make executive orders, but to make real permanent changes he would need a congress full of little Bernies. He won't get that. Far from it. But what he can do is to sign every bill a Democratic congress sends him. So his "promises" are simply things he would like to do. Nobody is going to blame him if congress doesn't go along.

In particular, the House has to originate every bill that spends taxpayer money. And House Democrats are going to be just that: Democrats, not Socialists.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Even if President Sanders is way out in left field, he can't pass laws. He can make executive orders, but to make real permanent changes he would need a congress full of little Bernies. He won't get that. Far from it. But what he can do is to sign every bill a Democratic congress sends him. So his "promises" are simply things he would like to do. Nobody is going to blame him if congress doesn't go along.

In particular, the House has to originate every bill that spends taxpayer money. And House Democrats are going to be just that: Democrats, not Socialists.


That is why all this handwringing over Sanders turning us into Cuba is utterly ridiculous, and it doesn't even deserve the dignity of a serious response.
Sanders knows that to be successful, he has to set a rational tone for his administration and sell a rational and workable vision.

I am confident that he can do that.
I am also confident that a couple of others can, too...just maybe not quite as close to what I personally believe would be the best route.
But even so, I think that a couple of the candidates will do a competent job leading the country.

Competence is probably the most important thing we need to concern ourselves with right now, because "right now", we are teetering on the brink of a headlong plunge into authoritarian fascist dictatorship and the end of the rule of law.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/26/20 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Yep - then the problem becomes beating Trump. Given that Trump has, pretty much, pissed off, or disgusted, just about any group you can think of Bernie may actually have a chance. Bernie's promises are, basically, lies. So, hopefully, folks are already used to a president that lies all the time so they just might forgive Bernie when all his plans goto dust. I am basing this on the simple fact that Bernie is a noted utter failure as a United States senator/legislator and is at the bottom of virtually every measurement in that regard. There is no reason to assume he would change if president.

I am not really convinced that any of the candidates is interested in much, other than just being president. We will, of course, see in the fullness of time. On reflection I suspect Bloomberg, Mayor Pete, Ami, and Steyer might actually want to do something.


What Sanders accomplishes after he's in is secondary, to me.

First you stop the bleeding.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/27/20 04:11 AM



Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/27/20 08:10 PM

I would like to know just how seriously people are taking this whole idiotic "Bernie down-ballot damage" self fulfilling prophecy.

Far as I can tell, the whole thing revolves around "we can't have nice things because dumbasses will hear 'SOCIALIST!!', then wig the f*** out and say 'fergit it I'd ruther have Trump' rather than end the horror show of fascist dictatorship" - - - because Bernie.

It's a bit like Republicans who are terrified about upsetting Dear Leader.

"OMG OMG OMG he's going to tweet again - BURN THE CONSTITUTION!!!"
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/27/20 08:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
I would like to know just how seriously people are taking this whole idiotic "Bernie down-ballot damage" self fulfilling prophecy.

Far as I can tell, the whole thing revolves around "we can't have nice things because dumbasses will hear 'SOCIALIST!!', then wig the f*** out and say 'fergit it I'd ruther have Trump' rather than end the horror show of fascist dictatorship" - - - because Bernie.

It's a bit like Republicans who are terrified about upsetting Dear Leader.

"OMG OMG OMG he's going to tweet again - BURN THE CONSTITUTION!!!"


This is the same tired s*** we've heard from dems since Reagan's "government IS the problem" speech.

It's tiresome as hell watching them grovel to conservatives.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 03:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
I would like to know just how seriously people are taking this whole idiotic "Bernie down-ballot damage" self fulfilling prophecy.

Far as I can tell, the whole thing revolves around "we can't have nice things because dumbasses will hear 'SOCIALIST!!', then wig the f*** out and say 'fergit it I'd ruther have Trump' rather than end the horror show of fascist dictatorship" - - - because Bernie.

It's a bit like Republicans who are terrified about upsetting Dear Leader.

"OMG OMG OMG he's going to tweet again - BURN THE CONSTITUTION!!!"


This is the same tired s*** we've heard from dems since Reagan's "government IS the problem" speech.

It's tiresome as hell watching them grovel to conservatives.


Agreed but it is now hard baked, at least for now anyway.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 02:59 PM

We are now seeing ‘unelectability 2.0’.
Can’t say he’s unelectable after winning first three primary states.
Start saying he will make down ballot candidates unelectable.

More rationales being produced so people won’t feel they have permission to vote for him who are undecided still.

So whats been tried:

He’s not a Democrat
He’s unelectable
He’s a misogynist
Nobody likes him
He’s a Russian agent (this one ought to make the Russian meddling conspiracy supporters feel foolish but no, they bought into that one hard)
He’s a communist. No one knows what that even means but whatever.,.
He has no black or Hispanic support
Bernie Bros
Rude online supporters
Etc, etc

Now they’ve circled around to unelectability down ballot. Where all politics is local.

Democrats are trying to destroy the candidate that wants to give everyone healthcare and a pay raise.

I agree with Hudson. The Democratic Party is the servants entrance to the Republican Party now.

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


Democrats are trying to destroy the candidate that wants to give everyone healthcare and a pay raise.

I agree with Hudson. The Democratic Party is the servants entrance to the Republican Party now.



Of course the best response to that is...what exactly?

I'm guessing that running around attacking everyone isn't working very well, unless of course you don't mind four more years of Trump, which would likely become twenty more years of TrumpCo Family, because after all, once you've secured the dictatorship dynasty, why not hand it off to the rest of the family?

See you in 2040.
Maybe we'll all be allowed to vote for someone who isn't a Trump by then, if we're allowed to vote at all.

PS: You forgot: HEART ATTACK!!!

Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 06:37 PM

Actually I don't know of a single Democrat that doesn't want universal healthcare and all the rest. The problem is getting it done and its not easy. I remember when Obamacare was passed. The Dems had a heck of a time just getting the Dems to go along let alone the other side (none of which voted for Obamacare even though they actually wrote half of that bill).

The real test is how to get it done. I do know that the Bernie plan of "my way or the highway" can never be successful. That will simply not work unless, of course, they can get majorities in the congress and get the presidency as well. That too is not likely to happen.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 06:48 PM

How is my statement a personal attack Jeff?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 06:50 PM

The Democratic party doesn't want universal healthcare.

Can you, JGW, tell me what universal programs the democratic party has passed in the last 30-40 years?

Without means testing?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The Democratic party doesn't want universal healthcare.

Can you, JGW, tell me what universal programs the democratic party has passed in the last 30-40 years?

Without means testing?


You keep referring to them as if they're some amorphous non-human entity from outer space. "The Democratic Party" is people, and apparently, largely composed of PEOPLE WHO ARE every bit as terrified as Republicans, although for vastly different reasons.

Republicans are terrified that old angry rich white Christian people are becoming irrelevant, and they're willing to burn it all down if that turns out to be the case.

Democrats (establishment Dems) are terrified that Republican messaging is stronger and angrier than theirs, that people will believe Republican messaging ABOUT THEM.

Ergo "We can't have nice things".
HINT: That started forty years ago.
We should have begun pumping Greek Fire at their ships forty years ago.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 08:23 PM

I refer to them as an amorphous blob of corporate lobbyists, political campaign bundles weapons contractors, etc...

Yeah, Powell memorandum, Civil rights backlash, ‘New Democrats’ and many more have played roles in the current party structure.

Your terrified of Republican, I’m terrified of the Democratic Party.

The blob enables the rightward drift by suppressing a left alternative.

That’s were I come from. Oddly, many take it as being a Trump supporter.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I refer to them as an amorphous blob of corporate lobbyists, political campaign bundles weapons contractors, etc...

Yeah, Powell memorandum, Civil rights backlash, ‘New Democrats’ and many more have played roles in the current party structure.

Your terrified of Republican, I’m terrified of the Democratic Party.

The blob enables the rightward drift by suppressing a left alternative.

That’s were I come from. Oddly, many take it as being a Trump supporter.


I'm saying that we should have started lobbing bombs at them immediately after Reagan began enforcing Powell on Steroids.
We sat back and bowed our heads in shame, "End of an Era" etc etc.

Suddenly now we're all supposed to be revolutionaries? Hah!
We don't even have any bullets yet, it's like we're supposed to throw aspirin pills at COVID-19 and pray the aspirin takes hold.

I agree with you on everything you say about them being mostly "corporate lobbyists, political campaign bundles weapons contractors, etc" but the fact is - - we got too good at attacking each other and all they did was feast on the other end of the carcass while we weren't looking, and all that protein made them strong.

If we're going to fight, we need to be strong, and in order to be strong, we need to be able to breathe.
Four more years of Trump and I'm dead, simple as that. I'm dead, Karen is dead and my son will be dead.

That's not overly dramatic, it is an actual fact.
Karen is very sick, I am just now recovering and realizing I am sicker than I thought I was even though I feel better, and my son is still facing a heart transplant...someday. He will not get better without it, only worse.

Who knows, maybe all us sick people need to just get out of your way.
Heh, not ready to do that just yet.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

I agree with you on everything you say about them being mostly "corporate lobbyists, political campaign bundles weapons contractors, etc" but the fact is - - we got too good at attacking each other and all they did was feast on the other end of the carcass while we weren't looking, and all that protein made them strong.


Yep. The way I see it, the left is really only good at or prone to attacking the edge of the right that most closely aligns with the left.

The actual fascists are a harder target, so it's cheaper and safer to attack them and claim it's the same as attacking the Trump machine.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Actually I don't know of a single Democrat that doesn't want universal healthcare and all the rest. The problem is getting it done and its not easy. I remember when Obamacare was passed. The Dems had a heck of a time just getting the Dems to go along let alone the other side (none of which voted for Obamacare even though they actually wrote half of that bill).

The real test is how to get it done. I do know that the Bernie plan of "my way or the highway" can never be successful. That will simply not work unless, of course, they can get majorities in the congress and get the presidency as well. That too is not likely to happen.


It could be possible if the dems and the left could unite.

But both factions are more interested in losing with a halo.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
How is my statement a personal attack Jeff?







I didn't say it was a PERSONAL attack, but it IS an attack which is probably very misguided, if the top priority is getting rid of Trump and the Republican majorities.

Sorry dude, I really really want a President Sanders, and I really really WANT to see the bulk of Reaganomics dismantled forever.

And I am confident that we can get all of that done.
I am not confident that we can get together in unity sufficient to muster the political will to do all of it at the same time in one election however, and part of that IS the fault of the "all or nothing" attitude of some on the Left.
And what's particularly frustrating to me is that I know your next response will be to tag me as a crypto-servant of the Republicans because I am not willing to burn it all down in service TO the Left on the heels of a possible Bernie flameout.

All or nothing...if we don't blast Trump and every single one of his sycophants in Congress straight to Mars on a one way ticket, we WILL witness the yawning chasm of nothing, right before we are pushed into it.

Meanwhile Mick Mulvaney is on TV mourning the markets in the middle of a global pandemic, as the most qualified medical policy wonk in the country is being ordered to stand down from the talk shows, lest he fail to deliver the most important message: PROTECT TRUMP!.

If the Left is content with four more years of that writ large, then the Left is attacking me, and anyone like me.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 10:07 PM

Well, there was civil rights and voting, for starters.

When Obama got Obamacare he tried to get the Public Option enacted at the same time but couldn't get the Dems to go along with it (other elected Democrats).

It seems that there are many here who believe in some dark conspiracy in the Democratic party. My wife worked for the Democrats for several years and I asked her about that and she just laughed (she was, and is, a member of the party). This stuff is, I think, a cousin of the deep state of the Trumpies. I am not a big believer in conspiracies. If they are true then they are also very secret and NOBODY actually knows. I could be wrong about this and that would make absolutely no difference. Its a little like arguing over who has the best God. I don't think anybody has ever won one of these arguments but it is, I think, a great time user for them with too much of that on their hands.

Oh, I have also watched any number of conspiracy movies. The last one had to do with a Christian political conspiracy which was pretty good and probably does exist.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 10:54 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Well, there was civil rights and voting, for starters.




Gone!
SCOTUS gutted most of the Voting Rights Act and it's now once again legal to discriminate in several states.
Didn't think that could ever happen? It did.

It's pretty clear that Republicans intend to destroy our republic entirely.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/28/20 11:14 PM

You are flat out right about that.

I have often wondered about how the lobbyists figure into it all. Its my understanding that the Republicans have somehow removed all the expert consultants from the congress and substituted Lobbyists. I am not sure that this has happened but I did, once, read an article claiming that. I have always considered the situation with lobbyists to be the beginning of congressional corruption, pure and simple. Anyway, I just googled:
crs and lobbying
congressional appointed experts and consultants
congress substitute lobbyists for experts

This boggled me big time. There are, apparently, some confusions between congressional experts, congressional researc, and lobbying.

Just for the heck of it, in case you don't know about it:
https://www.opensecrets.org/ (LOTS of interesting stuff here)
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/29/20 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By: jgw
You are flat out right about that.

I have often wondered about how the lobbyists figure into it all. Its my understanding that the Republicans have somehow removed all the expert consultants from the congress and substituted Lobbyists. I am not sure that this has happened but I did, once, read an article claiming that. I have always considered the situation with lobbyists to be the beginning of congressional corruption, pure and simple. Anyway, I just googled:
crs and lobbying
congressional appointed experts and consultants
congress substitute lobbyists for experts

This boggled me big time. There are, apparently, some confusions between congressional experts, congressional researc, and lobbying.

Just for the heck of it, in case you don't know about it:
https://www.opensecrets.org/ (LOTS of interesting stuff here)


For the last forty years, and especially in the last TEN, think tanks have been cranking out gavel ready legislation and piping it directly into both congressional chambers.

You've no doubt heard of the American Legislative Exchange Council, aka "ALEC". It is no secret at all, they are PROUD of the fact that they generate finished law for direct consumption by congress critters, and they have made it clear on many occasions that they will not tolerate any meddling or even any pesky questions from lawmakers.

Either you pass what we send you or you WILL be primaried and booted out.
Norquist put it into blunt terms:



Again, this is not a secret.
And it all started when Lewis Powell issued his call to arms for corporate America. All think tanks lead back to the Powell Memo.

All roads lead to Powell.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/29/20 07:00 PM

Lordy, I forgot about that! thank you! I thought it had gone away. I am beginning to wonder if its possible to get rid of this kind of stuff.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/29/20 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
Lordy, I forgot about that! thank you! I thought it had gone away. I am beginning to wonder if its possible to get rid of this kind of stuff.


Not if our Congress critters continue being the chickensh!ts that they are. That's also why, despite my continuing love and admiration of "the Bern", I caution anyone to take into account what Sanders will inherit.

If it's Dem majorities in both chambers, a fair number of them will still be chickensh!ts, and like AOC herself said, he cannot just wave a magic wand.

It would take a very very brave and courageous complement of Reps and Sens to do some of the heavy lifting Sanders dreams of.
I honestly think half of them are cowards...maybe more than half.

It doesn't change my admiration and devotion to him but it tempers my expectations to the point where I have to be honest with myself about the fact that no matter WHO we put in the White House, we only get the kind of leadership that Congress is willing to proceed with.
And the think tank army is still holding fast and sucking in vast amounts of cash. That has never abated, and no mechanism currently exists to strip them of their influence.

And Congress is rated less admired than German cockroaches, except of course when it comes to "their own" particular congress critter...you know how that goes.

I want Bernie to be Bernie, but I think it may be too much to hope that our legislative branch will ever be anything more than a collection of hopeless grifters dotted by a few very frustrated patriots. Mister Smith has not gone to Washington for almost a century, and even then it was just a heartwarming story anyway.



Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/29/20 08:45 PM

Nothing much radical is going to happen in Congress. Give the Republicans majorities with a Republican President to sign bills and generally bad things happen. Give the Democrats majorities with a Democratic President and generally good things will happen. If voters choose mixed parties, then generally nothing will happen.

The President's job is to be our moral leader, and that's why Trump sucks at the job. He's more like an organized crime boss who has bought off the DA.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/29/20 09:07 PM

I am not convinced that he is not a crime boss. There are several of his closest in prison right now. I have full confidence that there will be more unless he goes.

I really want him gone!
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 02/29/20 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
I am not convinced that he is not a crime boss. There are several of his closest in prison right now. I have full confidence that there will be more unless he goes.

I really want him gone!


Trump? You're not just now figuring out that he's a fully mobbed up Russian gangster? Come on, surely you've known this all along.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/01/20 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: jgw
I am not convinced that he is not a crime boss. There are several of his closest in prison right now. I have full confidence that there will be more unless he goes.

I really want him gone!


Trump? You're not just now figuring out that he's a fully mobbed up Russian gangster? Come on, surely you've known this all along.

it's better that the student learn on the last day of class, than never at all. smile
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/01/20 02:29 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: jgw
I am not convinced that he is not a crime boss. There are several of his closest in prison right now. I have full confidence that there will be more unless he goes.

I really want him gone!


Trump? You're not just now figuring out that he's a fully mobbed up Russian gangster? Come on, surely you've known this all along.

it's better that the student learn on the last day of class, than never at all. smile


I think jgw is representative of a lot of good people who, despite overwhelming evidence, just couldn't bring themselves to "GO THERE"...but at this point, the evidence is dragging them "there" anyway.

So I give credit to jgw for just being a good person, with a good heart.
NO ONE WANTS to "go there"...to realize the ugly truth.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/02/20 11:16 PM


The Sanders Medicare For All bill.

Both of my Senators are co-sponsors.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/03/20 01:48 AM

Thank you Loggy!
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/03/20 08:07 PM

Bernie's medicare for all is interesting but doesn't really take over the entire industry. Medical 'devices' is one area. Obamacare tried but that was the first thing they ripped out of Obamacare. Obamacare also made a run at standardizing software, building a database of procedures and results (also gone), etc. For single payer to work (this is exactly what this is) its necessary to regulate the entire industry, lock stock and barrel. Its inferenced but never really covered.

I am not against single payer but it requires a LOT more work than so far suggested. Given that, and the simple fact that the american voting public is not exactly able to even vote in their own best interest, somebody is going to have to come up with a much better plan than simply listing services - that's the easy part! One of the problems, I think, is that the entire industry is rife with folks with their hands on the teats of health and they are not going to let go without a really big fight. When you add in the national debt, now bigger than our GDP, there are a LOT of problems.

When you add in that Bernie has been able to produce, in 20 years, virtually no legislation, due to his ability to never give an inch, I really can't see him actually doing anything if he gets to be president. Hopefully, at the very least he will actually pass legislation that the democratic congress feeds to him.

This means that we not only have to get the presidency but the congress (both houses). We will know by the end of the year and THEN we will see!
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/03/20 08:34 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw
When you add in that Bernie has been able to produce, in 20 years, virtually no legislation, due to his ability to never give an inch, I really can't see him actually doing anything if he gets to be president. Hopefully, at the very least he will actually pass legislation that the democratic congress feeds to him.

I get it. You don't read my posts. Guess I won't reply to yours anymore.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/03/20 10:49 PM

Probably after today we can stop talking about Bernie.

It looks to me like America is about to go with the status quo.

There will be no Medicare For All, The ACA will be ruled unconstitutional and private for profit insurance will be all that's available.

There will be no "living wage". No federal increase of the current and eternal law which states that a man's time is worth $7.25 an hour.

There will be no paid time off. No family leave. No vacations. No daycare for working parents. No full time jobs and no insurance.
The price of an education will continue to rise and student debt along with it.

I feel like Bernie is going to lose...deep down in my bones...I felt the tide turning as soon as Biden pulled off the big win in South Carolina. I hope I'm wrong.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/03/20 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Probably after today we can stop talking about Bernie.

It looks to me like America is about to go with the status quo.

There will be no Medicare For All, The ACA will be ruled unconstitutional and private for profit insurance will be all that's available.

There will be no "living wage". No federal increase of the current and eternal law which states that a man's time is worth $7.25 an hour.

There will be no paid time off. No family leave. No vacations. No daycare for working parents. No full time jobs and no insurance.
The price of an education will continue to rise and student debt along with it.

I feel like Bernie is going to lose...deep down in my bones...I felt the tide turning as soon as Biden pulled off the big win in South Carolina. I hope I'm wrong.


Yeah, that's what I'm smelling, too.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/04/20 05:35 AM

I think you are right, Greger, but only on the winning part. A large part of the Democratic Party has moved enough left to sway Congress in that direction. This is mostly in reaction to Trump, not because they support Bernie. He's only pulling about 27% of the votes in California, probably the most progressive state there is.

So don't expect a single-payer tsunami, but do expect ACA's problems to be fixed and a public option added.
Don't expect $15 per hour minimum wage, but maybe we get $12.
More states lowering state college and university tuition. More selective occupation student debt forgiveness.
More Solar rebates and fewer coal power plants.
Higher top tax rates for the rich.

You don't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/04/20 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think you are right, Greger, but only on the winning part. A large part of the Democratic Party has moved enough left to sway Congress in that direction. This is mostly in reaction to Trump, not because they support Bernie. He's only pulling about 27% of the votes in California, probably the most progressive state there is.

So don't expect a single-payer tsunami, but do expect ACA's problems to be fixed and a public option added.
Don't expect $15 per hour minimum wage, but maybe we get $12.
More states lowering state college and university tuition. More selective occupation student debt forgiveness.
More Solar rebates and fewer coal power plants.
Higher top tax rates for the rich.

You don't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need.


$15 is a need, not a want. I mean, if we want to keep our economy.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/04/20 04:50 PM

Bloomberg is out, Warren expected to drop out in the next 10 days.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/04/20 10:10 PM

416 + 415 = 831, the number of delegates Sanders will get if (WHEN!) California results are finally tallied.
I daresay the media's celebration of "Super Joe" might be a wee bit premature.

I've just been enlightened by David's Snarky Politics Group that California is NOT a "winner take all state" so my number may be subject to change.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 12:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
416 + 415 = 831, the number of delegates Sanders will get if (WHEN!) California results are finally tallied.
I daresay the media's celebration of "Super Joe" might be a wee bit premature.

I've just been enlightened by David's Snarky Politics Group that California is NOT a "winner take all state" so my number may be subject to change.


I'm not sure where you got your numbers. Total delegates California can award is 415. California has 79 Super Delegates which can vote in round two, but not on the first ballot at the convention. With counting still going on in California, Sanders has been awarded 155 delegates, Biden 93, Bloomberg 14 and Warren 9.

For the most recent delegate count, here.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/democratic_delegate_count.html

If you're interested in the popular vote totals,

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/democratic_vote_count.html

RCP continuous updates these totals until they become official. This is with 90% of the vote or precincts reporting in California. still more to come. 144 more delegates will be awarded later.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Probably after today we can stop talking about Bernie.

It looks to me like America is about to go with the status quo.

There will be no Medicare For All, The ACA will be ruled unconstitutional and private for profit insurance will be all that's available.

There will be no "living wage". No federal increase of the current and eternal law which states that a man's time is worth $7.25 an hour.

There will be no paid time off. No family leave. No vacations. No daycare for working parents. No full time jobs and no insurance.
The price of an education will continue to rise and student debt along with it.

I feel like Bernie is going to lose...deep down in my bones...I felt the tide turning as soon as Biden pulled off the big win in South Carolina. I hope I'm wrong.


I don't know if I'd say "America". I think what we can say is that the "Democratic Party" (or, at least, their primary voters) are willing to stick closer to the Status Quo than what Sanders was offering, at least, going by national polls, when that Status Quo seemed to be in the ascendancy.

This has a couple of implications:

1. Sander's theory of the election - that he could alienate centrist voters and swing voters and more than make up the loss by motivating waves of previously unconnected voters and the youth - appears to be in the process of being disproven. It can't even be accomplished - seemingly - within the Democratic Party, much less the General electorate.

2. Democrats may be mostly interested in General Election viability at this point. That would explain the shifts in the national polls that trailed primary victories. If so, that suggests that victory will be self-reproducing - Biden's wins on Super Tuesday, and the fact that the next few states may be Biden-friendly, suggest that Bernie could lose more going forward than even current polls show


However, Bernie is leading a movement. Biden is leading a temporarily-aligned coalition. Movements are much harder to beat; their members are more motivated, and it is very difficult to get them to break off. A week ago, we were having the same conversation, but with the names reversed.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 04:00 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Greger
Probably after today we can stop talking about Bernie.

It looks to me like America is about to go with the status quo.

There will be no Medicare For All, The ACA will be ruled unconstitutional and private for profit insurance will be all that's available.

There will be no "living wage". No federal increase of the current and eternal law which states that a man's time is worth $7.25 an hour.

There will be no paid time off. No family leave. No vacations. No daycare for working parents. No full time jobs and no insurance.
The price of an education will continue to rise and student debt along with it.

I feel like Bernie is going to lose...deep down in my bones...I felt the tide turning as soon as Biden pulled off the big win in South Carolina. I hope I'm wrong.


I don't know if I'd say "America". I think what we can say is that the "Democratic Party" (or, at least, their primary voters) are willing to stick closer to the Status Quo than what Sanders was offering, at least, going by national polls, when that Status Quo seemed to be in the ascendancy.

This has a couple of implications:

1. Sander's theory of the election - that he could alienate centrist voters and swing voters and more than make up the loss by motivating waves of previously unconnected voters and the youth - appears to be in the process of being disproven. It can't even be accomplished - seemingly - within the Democratic Party, much less the General electorate.

2. Democrats may be mostly interested in General Election viability at this point. That would explain the shifts in the national polls that trailed primary victories. If so, that suggests that victory will be self-reproducing - Biden's wins on Super Tuesday, and the fact that the next few states may be Biden-friendly, suggest that Bernie could lose more going forward than even current polls show


However, Bernie is leading a movement. Biden is leading a temporarily-aligned coalition. Movements are much harder to beat; their members are more motivated, and it is very difficult to get them to break off. A week ago, we were having the same conversation, but with the names reversed.

I agree that a lot of democrats want a candidate that can beat Trump, which to a lot of them that is Biden, not Sanders. I also agree that things like Medicare for all, forgiveness of all college loan debts, praising Castro, was just too much for a lot of moderate Democrats.

66% of Democrats think Biden would beat Trump, 52% think Sanders would. Another interesting stat is Biden is the choice of 57% of black voters who make up a third of the democratic primary vote. 11% prefer Sanders, 18% preferred Bloomberg. So we have a disconnect, 27% of white democratic primary voters prefer Sanders to 21% for Biden, Warren at 22%, Bloomberg at 11%. This was taken before Bloomberg withdrew.

Sanders has a problem with the black vote and with moderate democrats. In 2016 Hillary won the black Democratic primary vote with 80% while sanders edged out Hillary among whites. So both in 2016 and in 2020, its the same problems for sanders, moderates and blacks.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 04:34 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL



1. Sander's theory of the election - that he could alienate centrist voters and swing voters and more than make up the loss by motivating waves of previously unconnected voters and the youth - appears to be in the process of being disproven. It can't even be accomplished - seemingly - within the Democratic Party, much less the General electorate.


I don’t think the Sanders Theory has a ‘alienate centrists’ component. I’m fact, many of his proposals are still favored by majorities of Democrats, Medicare for All being one consistently polled positively by majorities of voters in every Super Tuesday state. The establishment and media have worked overtime to make Sanders, supporters and his platform alienating to people.

Though there has been an active smear campaign against his supporters, his record of accomplishment in office, his proposals, and popularity thru the dominant corporate media landscape, he has done more than any insurgent has done within the Conservative Democratic party in decades.

Sanders lost heavily again in the black belt among older black voters but dominated the younger black voters. Biden is only winning aging Boomers here.

Sanders wins Latino voters of all age groups.

Has more women support of the other candidates, largest number of volunteers and outraised the rest of the pack.

The Dommed liberals came out in surprising numbers once the party coalesced around Biden. It was something that I don’t recall seeing in my lifetime, With no organization on the ground, no campaign presence and trailing losses from the previous states primaries, the corporate leadership was able two swing some remarkable points and state victories. A testament to the Pavlovian training imbued in large portions of the Democratic Party. Also represented by the ‘blue no matter who’ mindset.

The blow has been taken. The next round begins.

Sanders lost Texas by 32 points in 2016. He lost to Biden by 4.5 points on Tuesday. Biden was up by 10 or better for weeks before Tuesday. Voter suppression was a large feature in Texas and, like Iowa, inadequate resources fell heavily to precincts heavily favoring Sanders. Sanders still closed the gap by a respectable amount.

He won California by a large margin.

The contrast between Biden and Sanders should become much more stark regarding their Political records for voters to decide on.
Biden will be getting much more scrutiny with hardly anyone else on stage to take the attention off. That dynamic is gone now and he will now have to go into the late innings with no assists. Sanders has been under the hot glare for months now. He’s a grinder. He does the work.

It ain’t over till it’s over and it’s still close. Democratic Party appears to be willing to lose to Trump than win with Sanders. It’s now basically a new race between two candidates now.

For the Biden fans, he’s expanding his base as well:
Biden May Be Saving the Democrats

Always a good sign when you have Karl Rove’s endorsement...
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 04:36 AM

Quote:
I don't know if I'd say "America". I think what we can say is that the "Democratic Party" (or, at least, their primary voters) are willing to stick closer to the Status Quo than what Sanders was offering, at least, going by national polls, when that Status Quo seemed to be in the ascendancy.

I'd say that's the actual truth of it, closer than my own hyperbolic attempt.

But hey, life goes on eh? And the horse race is far from over.

Quote:
A week ago, we were having the same conversation, but with the names reversed.

Yeah I had written Biden off completely. You reckon it's gonna be 2016 all over again?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 04:52 AM

Does anyone know if Bloomberg beat Jeb’s record on the most money spent per delegate? I think he’s the new record holder but not certain.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 05:03 AM

Quote:
Democratic Party appears to be willing to lose to Trump than win with Sanders.


Wasn't Joe Biden the VP under Obama?

Who on this planet do Republicans hate more than Obama? They'll come out in joyous droves to vote against anything Obama.

Maybe voters will see the truth of it, maybe they won't.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 05:45 AM

Biden is a perfect neoliberal symbol. A corporate whore and war salesman, he has mastered a folksy ‘lunch box Joe’ persona but has been inflicting job losses, violent military conflict, debt misery opponent of civil rights, prison promoter and helped deliver a conservative judge to the Supreme Court.

It will be Sanders job to draw the distinction with Biden’s record and his own. It won’t be easy. The party is trying to make him the ‘blue no matter who’ heir apparent. His public displays of mental confusion may help.

It wouldn’t hurt to remind voters of his collaboration with some of the worst republicans and their legislative agenda. Tie him to that toxic party and remind voters how he’s looking to team up with the opposition in a running mate.

If Sanders can’t get it done the gallows consolation will be watching two devestatimgly awful boomers battle it out on stage debates. If we’re all gunna drown at least there’ll be a show.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 05:55 AM

Biden wants weed to stay illegal...
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Biden is a perfect neoliberal symbol. A corporate whore and war salesman, he has mastered a folksy ‘lunch box Joe’ persona but has been inflicting job losses, violent military conflict, debt misery opponent of civil rights, prison promoter and helped deliver a conservative judge to the Supreme Court.

It will be Sanders job to draw the distinction with Biden’s record and his own. It won’t be easy. The party is trying to make him the ‘blue no matter who’ heir apparent. His public displays of mental confusion may help.

It wouldn’t hurt to remind voters of his collaboration with some of the worst republicans and their legislative agenda. Tie him to that toxic party and remind voters how he’s looking to team up with the opposition in a running mate.

If Sanders can’t get it done the gallows consolation will be watching two devestatimgly awful boomers battle it out on stage debates. If we’re all gunna drown at least there’ll be a show.



Everyone left in the race is a boomer.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/05/20 04:09 PM

Yes....and?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/06/20 05:44 PM

It doesn't matter WHO gets elected.
If it's a Democratic president, Mitch McConnell vows 100 percent obstruction.


“I guarantee you that if I’m the last man standing and I’m still the majority leader, it ain’t happening. I can promise you.”



Oh looky! One of those "moderate Republicans" that we're supposed to "reach across the aisle and work with!"
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/07/20 02:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
It doesn't matter WHO gets elected.
If it's a Democratic president, Mitch McConnell vows 100 percent obstruction.

He did that with Obama too. Hmm That old turtle has gots to go! mad
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/07/20 02:51 AM



I was looking at 538 earlier today, Bernie and Biden are neck-and-neck next Tuesday - 5 primaries.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/07/20 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I don't know if I'd say "America". I think what we can say is that the "Democratic Party" (or, at least, their primary voters) are willing to stick closer to the Status Quo than what Sanders was offering, at least, going by national polls, when that Status Quo seemed to be in the ascendancy.

I'd say that's the actual truth of it, closer than my own hyperbolic attempt.

But hey, life goes on eh? And the horse race is far from over.

Quote:
A week ago, we were having the same conversation, but with the names reversed.

Yeah I had written Biden off completely. You reckon it's gonna be 2016 all over again?


Hm. Well, the parallel everyone has been drawing with the Democratic primary in 2020 is the GOP primary in 2016.

The Democratic Party has proven itself stronger and its aspiring leaders more willing to sacrifice personal grandstanding to benefit the party than the Republican Party saw in 2016. Buttegeig, Kloubachar, and Bloomberg all got out to endorse Biden to stop the insurgent campaign who viewed their own party with almost as much hostility as they viewed the other. At this point in 2016, IIRC, Rubio was still in the race (though he would drop a week later)*, Cruz was still in the race, Ben Carson was still in the race, and that pompous smug ass whose father was a mailman was still in the race, all of them splitting the non-Trump vote.

Each of the major non-Trump candidates (Bush, Rubio, Cruz) was working on the strategy that the race should come down to just them v Trump so they could win... and so each spent their ammo on the other at a critical point in the campaign. We saw this through Nevada, right up until the debate right before South Carolina.

At that point, I think, the Democratic 2020 pathway swerved from the GOP 2016 pathway. At this point, it looks like the insurgent is likely to be defeated.

The shift in 538's projections on the matter are dramatic.

But, as you say, this horse race isn't over. I've learned (bitterly) not to undercount the power of Movement Campaigns when they are up against shallow Coalition Campaigns.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/07/20 11:37 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Biden is a perfect neoliberal symbol. A corporate whore and war salesman, he has mastered a folksy ‘lunch box Joe’ persona but has been inflicting job losses, violent military conflict, debt misery opponent of civil rights, prison promoter and helped deliver a conservative judge to the Supreme Court.

It will be Sanders job to draw the distinction with Biden’s record and his own. It won’t be easy. The party is trying to make him the ‘blue no matter who’ heir apparent. His public displays of mental confusion may help.

It wouldn’t hurt to remind voters of his collaboration with some of the worst republicans and their legislative agenda. Tie him to that toxic party and remind voters how he’s looking to team up with the opposition in a running mate.

If Sanders can’t get it done the gallows consolation will be watching two devestatimgly awful boomers battle it out on stage debates. If we’re all gunna drown at least there’ll be a show.



What is Sander's plan for getting MFA past a Republican filibuster?


I don't know if he's exactly up to the task now, but Biden used to know how those sorts of things were done. If Sander's can't Make It So via Executive Fiat, he has no idea how to actually accomplish any of his legislative agenda.

I'm not positive that "I'm so bad at working with the other side that I'm totally incompetent to the task of achieving my goals!" is a selling point for a Presidential candidate.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/08/20 01:09 AM

We’ve been over Sanders record of accomplishment and bipartisanship support.
Go get some historical knowledge.
Who wants to debate a conservative bumper sticker anyways?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/08/20 02:38 AM

I'm sure Sanders voted for a LOT of Democrat-sponsored bills over the years. All things he liked a lot better than the Republican bills. His problem was that most Republicans and a lot of conservative Democrats would not vote for anything progressive he proposed. So it's not like he didn't try. He just seldom had the votes. But that's okay: He represented the progressives well, as he told his supporters he would.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/08/20 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Biden is a perfect neoliberal symbol. A corporate whore and war salesman, he has mastered a folksy ‘lunch box Joe’ persona but has been inflicting job losses, violent military conflict, debt misery opponent of civil rights, prison promoter and helped deliver a conservative judge to the Supreme Court.

It will be Sanders job to draw the distinction with Biden’s record and his own. It won’t be easy. The party is trying to make him the ‘blue no matter who’ heir apparent. His public displays of mental confusion may help.

[b]It wouldn’t hurt to remind voters of his collaboration with some of the worst republicans and their legislative agenda. Tie him to that toxic party and remind voters how he’s looking to team up with the opposition in a running mate.[b]

If Sanders can’t get it done the gallows consolation will be watching two devestatimgly awful boomers battle it out on stage debates. If we’re all gunna drown at least there’ll be a show.



What is Sander's plan for getting MFA past a Republican filibuster?


I don't know if he's exactly up to the task now, but Biden used to know how those sorts of things were done. If Sander's can't Make It So via Executive Fiat, he has no idea how to actually accomplish any of his legislative agenda.

I'm not positive that "I'm so bad at working with the other side that I'm totally incompetent to the task of achieving my goals!" is a selling point for a Presidential candidate.
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
We’ve been over Sanders record of accomplishment and bipartisanship support.
Go get some historical knowledge.
Who wants to debate a conservative bumper sticker anyways?


Bumper stickers make poor debate tools, though excellent campaign tools. Similarly, politicians who know how to get buy-in from the other side of the aisle make poor campaign tools, whereas politicians who can (stupidly) claim their Perfect Purity Kept Them From Ever, You Know, Succeeding can make excellent candidates in these stupid, tribal, times (Once upon a time, we preferred Governors for that reason, among others). That, after all, is why your screed against Biden above reads like so many - shall we say - bumper stickers smile.

But, then, this isn't, you know, an actual response to the points that:

1. Your complaint that Biden has a history of managing to get Republicans to sign on to his proposals, whereas Sanders has a history of not doing so, is effectively a complaint that Biden knows how to succeed in achieving policy goals in our system of government, whereas Bernie does not.

2. Incompetence at the basic tasks of governing is not (witness: current White House Occupant) exactly a strong selling point in a Presidential candidate.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/08/20 05:33 PM

Put down your bong and reread my post. Sanders has a record of bipartisan buy in thru amendments. He’s scored a lot of successes this way.

Biden has buy in too. Crime bill, debt bill, NAFTA, TTP, etc.

That’s not a screed. That’s the mans record.

As it becomes a two man race those records will be getting more scrutinized.

Your a Republican racist no? I’m guessing you hate Sanders Jewishness and want a restoration of the Anglo order.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/08/20 07:17 PM

This morning I watched a Bernie speech. He went after Biden and pointed out all the bills he was involved with, for or against, this and that. The possibly interesting thing is that all the things he mentioned were utter failures, insofar as legislation was concerned. Seems he was on the wrong side of every issue (as far as voting was concerned, house or senate).

Then I got a notice of a twitter from AOC:
I am constantly asked if I‘d support the Dem nominee. Could you imagine if I said I wouldn’t?
Yet Biden’s camp is on TV threatening to help Trump if they don’t get exactly what they want.

She just painted Biden's entire camp because one Biden supporter posted something to this effect. NOT Biden, and NOT his camp but a single, young, idiot! If there is something the Dems need to stop is this constant, UN-interupted, intercine warefare. Its not helpful, Trump loves it, and its stupid. Bernie's followers do this sort of stuff with some consistency. I guess they are determined that Trump gets another 4 years. One can only wonder.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/08/20 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL


1. Your complaint that Biden has a history of managing to get Republicans to sign on to his proposals, whereas Sanders has a history of not doing so, is effectively a complaint that Biden knows how to succeed in achieving policy goals in our system of government, whereas Bernie does not.


I think we already went over a baker's dozen of those proposals, none of which serves the needs of the working class.

Unfortunately that does not translate to a Bernie success in the White House. That's not Bernie's fault, it's ours.
I've said countless times, that when billionaires and corporate think tanks spend the kind of lavish sums they spend at crafting effective messaging against progressive change that would benefit working families, they expect to get results that favor their side.

And they have.
We can't have nice things because we've bought into the suggestion that having nice things would turn us into Cuba.

I don't remember anyone in Burlington getting their head chopped off for being too much of a capitalist.
If you can find the guillotines Bernie used on evil Vermont capitalists, I'd love to get a peek at them.
Ben & Jerry are doing rather well, last I checked, and so are the Vermont dairy farmers who supply all the milk they use for their ice cream.

That said,



I went on the internet and I found this:

Russian Media Freak Over Joe Biden’s Election Resurrection

Quote:
The Kremlin-controlled media hoped and, it would seem, believed that Bernie Sanders would get the Democratic nomination, paving the way to victory for Donald Trump.

Russian propagandists echoed that anticipation. Appearing on Rossiya 24, analyst Dmitry Drobnitsky predicted that in the event Sanders does not receive a nomination, street protests and violence will follow: “There will be unrest in Milwaukee… There will be a repeat of the 1968 Democratic Convention [riots] in Chicago.”
Last year, Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report identified "dozens" of U.S. political rallies organized on social media by the Internet Research Agency (IRA), a Russian troll farm whose operatives were indicted for interfering with the 2016 U.S. presidential election.


---So there it is, the Russian plan for influencing American elections.

The facts are the facts. Bernie has a loyal following and rightly so, but unfortunately his numbers are about a third less than they were in 2016, and the youth vote that he was counting on this time around actually evaporated compared to even 2016.

But through it all, The Kremlin has been hoping for a repeat of Chicago 1968, the Democratic Convention, when there was violence in the streets, and where the Left sat out the election, giving us Nixon instead of Humphrey.

But Trump isn't Nixon.
He's not even fit to shine Nixon's shoes, and I say that as a liberal Democrat who voted for Sanders in the primaries in California last week.

I love Bernie, I think he would do a lot of good for America. But his numbers clearly say that America apparently isn't ready for steps that big. We don't have the stomach for it.
We don't have "the GUTS", the political will.

So I ask all of you, is the solution four more years of Donald Trump, and fulfillment of The Kremlin's desires?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/08/20 07:43 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw

Yet Biden’s camp is on TV threatening to help Trump if they don’t get exactly what they want.


Link please?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/09/20 01:56 AM

Much as I hate to say it, Bernie is finished.
And it's not his fault either.
But take a look at this...AOC is now being attacked, because she dared to like a Saturday Night Live skit poking fun at Liz, who made a cameo appearance.

Are you f***ing kidding me?
They're ready to attack anyone and everyone but they can't be bothered to show up at the polls and vote.


Bernie Sanders fans lash out at ‘backstabber’ Ocasio-Cortez for praising Elizabeth Warren’s SNL skit
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/09/20 03:10 AM

Alleged Bernie fans. Russian trolls are doing their best for Bernie right now. If Bernie was smart, he would watch the sketch and tweet how funny he thought it was.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/09/20 03:31 AM

Quote:
Alleged Bernie fans.

LOL yeah, this looks a lot like Republican projection to me. It's what they'd do so they think it's what we'd do...

Trump's Trolls pretending to be Bernie's boys...?

Or just us doing the same thing that Republicans do...?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/09/20 04:17 AM

At the moment the Russian troll strategy seems to be to promote Bernie, since they think he's the easiest Democrat for Trump to beat. But I think that will prove useless, since Trump will be a lost cause by November, even for die-hard fans.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/09/20 04:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Alleged Bernie fans.

LOL yeah, this looks a lot like Republican projection to me. It's what they'd do so they think it's what we'd do...

Trump's Trolls pretending to be Bernie's boys...?

Or just us doing the same thing that Republicans do...?


Like many, I too am attempting to gauge the veracity of a lot of the hash and trash.
I was a member of something like a dozen Bernie pages on Facebook back in the last campaign season.
I, along with dozens of close friends and fellow members on the same groups and pages, witnessed the work of foreign and domestic troll influence firsthand.
I am not a member of ANY Bernie pages this time around, and I am also not subscribed to similar pages for ANY of the other Democratic candidates....NONE.
I already saw how it worked back then.

I don't think that the backlash AOC is getting right now is Russian trolls or any trolls, because too many of them are well known Bernie fans.
That much I've already verified.

Have you ever heard of Justin Rosario?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/09/20 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Alleged Bernie fans.

LOL yeah, this looks a lot like Republican projection to me. It's what they'd do so they think it's what we'd do...

Trump's Trolls pretending to be Bernie's boys...?

Or just us doing the same thing that Republicans do...?



Topless Animal Rights Protesters Storm Stage, Disrupt Bernie Sanders’ Speech at Nevada Rally
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/09/20 05:06 PM

Anti-dairy protesters with their udders bared? Whatever is this world coming to?

Yall can have your nut milk. I like mine straight from the teats.

Even Mahatma Gandhi took a glass of goats milk everyday for his health.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/09/20 07:47 PM

You'd think a rebel like Bob Geldof of The Boomtown Rats would believe in the revolution and you'd like to think he's on board with Bernie, and the hopes and dreams of a generation of millenials AND even a 94 year old Dick Van Dyke.
And you'd be wrong.

The infamous Live-Aid promoter is depressed and he wants you to know why he is convinced that Trump will likely be reelected.

Quote:
And you think Trump will be re-elected?

Yep.
Because we’re in the midst of a great failure of the absolutely pathetic Democratic Party. They’re a complete mess. There isn’t a single candidate there who can win.
They need to stop this [fecking] health care for all, and climate reduction. That’s not going to happen, so stop saying it.
I know young people want that, and they’re correct to want it, and America deserves it, but it’s not going to happen in the term of a presidency, and it’s not even aspirational—not when the other side operates the way they do.
The message should be, “Steady as she goes, let’s go back to being a country that looks outside ourselves; we’re Jeffersonian, we’re idealistic. That’s what we gave the world.” That will appeal to Americans, because that’s what they believe themselves to be. They’re not, but they believe themselves to be that.


Geldof goes on to say that it's because Trump has almost succeeded in reducing America to a state of infantilism.

He might be right.
After all, when "owning the libtards" is compressed into a reward system, it becomes exactly like a drug, a drug that tens of millions of Americans are now addicted to, and they don't care about the consequences of behaving like drug addicts.
Because not caring about consequences is what addicts do...it's their job.



Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/10/20 02:06 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Put down your bong and reread my post. Sanders has a record of bipartisan buy in thru amendments. He’s scored a lot of successes this way.


....no. Putting amendments into other people's work is not the same as actually demonstrating an ability to achieve bipartisan consensus or buy-in from the other side in order to service your priorities.

Which is why you are also studiously avoiding answering the question as to how Bernie plans to pass MFA over a GOP filibuster, given that he doesn't even seem to be able to maintain a successful relationship with those on his own side of the aisle.

Being a puritan can be rewarding. But it doesn't make you a good Chief Executive.

Quote:
Biden has buy in too. Crime bill, debt bill, NAFTA, TTP, etc.

That’s not a screed. That’s the mans record


Yup. You seem to be confusing "I disliked this thing" with "therefore it doesn't count as something that was successfully passed".

With the notable exception of TTP, which this POTUS stupidly canked because Rand Paul embarrassed him about it on the campaign trail, and he can't tell the difference between "Trade Deals I Didn't Oversee" and "Boo Trade Bade". :roll:

Quote:
As it becomes a two man race those records will be getting more scrutinized.


It depends on how close it is. If Biden takes a sizeable lead today and moving forward, much of Bernie's past will probably remain back in obscurity. If it gets close again, it could get ugly again - we'll see.

Quote:
Your a Republican racist no? I’m guessing you hate Sanders Jewishness and want a restoration of the Anglo order.


What a sad and blighted world you must live in, where the only possible reason someone can come to differing conclusions than you is because they are evil* frown.


No. I was a Republican - I left the party when they decided to nominate a racist carnival barker. Now I'm pretty much politically homeless. smile.





*Side Note: The left's tendency to blanket accuse anything they don't like of being racist sexist whateverist was a huge enabler of Donald Trump's primary campaign.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/10/20 02:09 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
At the moment the Russian troll strategy seems to be to promote Bernie, since they think he's the easiest Democrat for Trump to beat.


Nah. Russia has a simple enough strategy - promote disruption and seek to degrade authority. Bernie is the disruptor on the Democrat side this year, just as Trump was on the Republican side in 2016. In both years Russia sought to boost the signal of the extremes, and try to goad them into conflict with each other.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/10/20 04:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
... this looks a lot like Republican projection to me. It's what they'd do so they think it's what we'd do...

ReTHUGlicons should work in a movie theater - they're good at projection.

coffee
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/10/20 04:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
The infamous Live-Aid promoter is depressed and he wants you to know why he is convinced that Trump will likely be reelected.

2017 and especially 18 was a referendum on Trump. Trump WILL NOT be re-elected. He is the most hated president in modern history. THE...MOST...HATED. Bow

That's why all the polls had EVERY and ANY Dem beating Trump. Hmm
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/10/20 11:33 AM

I have hope that there will be no reelection of President Donald (...) Trump* The Mayor of my little home town, 130,000 people, came out publicly for Joe Biden, and will vote for him and against President Donald (...) Trump*. The Mayor, a life long Republican.


*impeached
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/11/20 12:42 AM

It's pretty much becoming an existential crisis now. People are starting to see that Trump in charge means a lot of them are going to die. We are seeing the House of Cards starting to crumble. I would not be too surprised if many of the age > 70 candidates for office are dead by November. We could wind up with President Buttigieg or Yang.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/11/20 04:27 AM

And just now Biden made one more conciliatory gesture to the Left wing of the party.
Sure, it may have been rather bland and generic, but I tend to ascribe that to cautiously dipping a toe in the water, so I call it a good first move.

Joe Biden To Bernie Sanders And His Supporters: We Share A Common Goal

More of that, Joe..and next time offer some specifics. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 02:29 PM



The Democratrc race is over. Voters have picked Joe Biden

I love how foreigners and the rightwing echo-machine tells Dems who their nominee for POTUS is... coffee
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 03:34 PM

Some one please tell me what the major ideological differences are between Biden and Trump? Not what your television is telling you now but their actual records?

Trump hasn't voted to kill a million innocent people is all I can think of.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 03:35 PM

AIPAC?
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 05:03 PM

Quote:
I have hope that there will be no reelection


In a sane world you could pretty much take that to the bank...

Unfortunately Bizarro World grows more bizarre by the day. The President has invoked wartime powers which give him direct control of private business.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 05:32 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Some one please tell me what the major ideological differences are between Biden and Trump? Not what your television is telling you now but their actual records?

Trump hasn't voted to kill a million innocent people is all I can think of.

Trump hasn't been voting on legislation for the last 40 years so his record is somewhat lacking in votes to compare to Biden's.
Trump has no ideology beyond personal greed. Biden none beyond political greed. Both are attention whores who enjoy the limelight.

Both are centrists so there isn't much difference ideologically. One is a civil servant, one is self serving. Ideology isn't everything.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 05:36 PM

What about body count?
Impoverishment?
Imprisonment?

I see Trump coming out on top, ironically.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 06:23 PM

Trump true believers remain and they continue to believe! They believe when Trump tries to reduce medicare, medicaid and Social Security. They seem to have ignored his complete catastrophe insofar as Covid-19 is concerned. They just continue to dote on the man. I am a little depressed because he seems to have forgotten he was going to have a rally in Florida but that also seems to make no difference. They also, however, seem to be completely ignoring the Covid-19 thing, think social space is a joke, still shake hands, etc. so one can only wonder how that's going to turn out?

There was a time when I used to think, from one disaster to the next, that some would figure out that the man is ignorant, silly, incompetent and dangerous. I don't anymore - they are determined and not competent to feed themselves let alone acting in their own best interest.

You are flat out right about the 70+ candidates are at risk. I too am wondering if they are going to survive. That would mean that the Dems would have to have a convention which would also mean that a lot of Dems would also die.

As usual, in the fullness of time.............
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick


The Democratrc race is over. Voters have picked Joe Biden

I love how foreigners and the rightwing echo-machine tells Dems who their nominee for POTUS is... coffee


We are so far over to the Right that a move to Bernie territory seemed to be too large a leap. Clearly in order to get back a center-left position we will have to make one step over to the center first, and then move a bit to the Left afterward.

A guy with Bernie's ideas would have ideally been the right man at the right time in the days of Jimmy Carter, but the Democrats were too complacent back then...they didn't even see the Reagan juggernaut coming.

But strictly politically speaking, the jump from Carter to Bernie would not have felt like a huge leap.

Clearly people have little memory of what CENTER-LEFT felt like back in the Carter days.
I remember but that's just me.
It felt normal.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/18/20 06:36 PM

But HEY!! We are about to experience true hardcore state socialism very soon!
Trump has invoked the Defense Production Act to harness PPE, medical equipment, drugs, maybe even energy.
AND!! Looks like every American is about to join the Yang Gang, at least temporarily!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/19/20 02:07 PM

Bernie was projected to win a decisive lead on Super Tuesday. Biden was, everyone thought, on his last legs and had not campaigned or established a ground presence in many states. Then, in the days immediately before Super Tuesday, several of his opponents dropped out. Their endorsements and a raft of others carried him to victory.
This was a message to Bernie voters: "[censored] off. We would rather drag Joe Biden over the finish line, knowing that he is no longer mentally competent, than cede anything to the candidate who is winning your votes by fifty points or more."

I’m a Bernie volunteer. Here’s how Joe Biden can win Bernie voters.

Pretty much nails the situation for the Sanders camp. Democrats can’t do anything for anyone because of republicans but they can knee cap progressives up and down the ballot. That they can do.

They are the party of Lieberman, Manchin, Pelosi and Biden

‘I can’t vote for a humane society cuz someone was mean to me on the internets’ is their battle cry.

Vote blue no matter who is their motto.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 03:13 AM

Justin Rosario

March 17 at 5:53 PM ·
Turnout is way up in Florida and Bros are complaining that Bernie is being cheated because of...voter suppression.

Meanwhile, they are literally also telling people, specifically older voters (aka "people who will vote for Biden"), to stay home because of COVID-19. This is also known as "voter suppression."

The sheer hypocrisy is on level with the MAGA Moron Mob but without the excuse of 30 years of brainwashing.

What's worse is that they will now use this as an excuse to wage a scorched earth war against Biden in the general election because it was all "RIGGED!" and the Bernie was "cheated."

But let's be clear: They were -always- going to do this if (when) Bernie lost. The plan was always to make Democrats lose. What they didn't count on was Trump being so unbelievably bad at his job that turnout would go through the roof to vote him out of office while Bernie's "revolution" once again failed to show up.

On top of that, a global pandemic and a coming massive recession has all but guaranteed Trump will lose even when all the Bros throw their little temper tantrum and stay home. There will be no repeat of 2016.

The rage of Bernie's cult will be absolute when this happens and a lot of the white men that comprise the Bros will somehow find their way to the alt-right. We'll have "forced" them to do it.

I want to be wrong but I haven't been wrong about these [censored]s once in 5 years.

(reprinted with permission)
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 03:43 AM

Quote:
The rage of Bernie's cult will be absolute when this happens and a lot of the white men that comprise the Bros will somehow find their way to the alt-right. We'll have "forced" them to do it.


Bullsh*t.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 01:16 PM

There's usually a certain percentage of those who are avid supporters of just one candidate in the primaries that don't show up to vote in the general. This is normal. They're the my candidate or none. Nominate my candidate or else I won't vote. They don't show up to vote for the other party's candidate, they stay home.

In the primaries so far this year and in 2016, most of Sanders supporters according to the polls are in the independent lean Democratic column, not those who affiliate or identify themselves as Democrats. Check out question 47.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/fcdckgt368/econTabReport.pdf

Sanders is the choice of Democratic leaning independents who vote in the primary 65-35. But Biden is the choice among those who identify or are part of the democratic base 65-29. Lot's of other good information there also.

Fact is those who identify with the two major parties are twice as likely to get out and vote then independents who lean toward one party or the other. Independents on November of 2016 made up 40% of the electorate, but only 30% of those who actually voted. Democrats made up 30% of the electorate, 36% of those who voted, Republicans 27%, 33% of those who actually voted.

The two parties base made up but 57% of the total electorate, but 69% of those who voted.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

So a bunch of Democratic leaning independent's who support Sanders or any other candidate to include those supporting Biden not showing up at the polls is normal in any election year.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The rage of Bernie's cult will be absolute when this happens and a lot of the white men that comprise the Bros will somehow find their way to the alt-right. We'll have "forced" them to do it.


Bullsh*t.


I wish it was, but ask Elliot Abrams and the rest of the Reagan/Bush neocon gang where they were forty-five years ago.
Most of them were ultra-Left back then.
Not talking about rank and file Bernie people, this is a core segmeent of the absolute balls to the wall Bernie or Bust group.

Thing is, I don't think that group is nearly as large as it was in 2016 and that is where I disagree with Rosario. He seems to think it's universal among Bernie supporters.

So don't think I take any joy in having posted that. I didn't.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The rage of Bernie's cult will be absolute when this happens and a lot of the white men that comprise the Bros will somehow find their way to the alt-right. We'll have "forced" them to do it.


Bullsh*t.


I wish it was, but ask Elliot Abrams and the rest of the Reagan/Bush neocon gang where they were forty-five years ago.
Most of them were ultra-Left back then.
Not talking about rank and file Bernie people, this is a core segmeent of the absolute balls to the wall Bernie or Bust group.

Thing is, I don't think that group is nearly as large as it was in 2016 and that is where I disagree with Rosario. He seems to think it's universal among Bernie supporters.

So don't think I take any joy in having posted that. I didn't.


Total bullshit.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 04:18 PM

You ought to confine your smearing of an entire constituency to your Russian hysteria. One look at the people volunteering (did you Jeff?) and the people showing up at his rallies should be enough for anyone who has any common sense to know Bernie Bro is pure Horsesh!t.

Anyone who could be bothered to get off their lazy intellectual arse can look at the pedigree of the 'Bernie Bro' narrative, used the last two primary elections, will understand it was always a cynical political smear ploy. Your either a fool or a willing participant in continuing that falsehood of the 'Bernie Bro'.

Sadly, I don't know which one it is for you Jeff.

Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 06:20 PM

Quote:
Total bullshit.


Absolutely. Apparently Jeffery knows nothing of ideology or he would have seen this as the complete sham it is.

F*ck voting blue and F*ck Joe Biden too. Okay? It has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders and everything to do with a failing nation unable and unwilling to change. Getting rid of Trump does absolutely nothing to get rid of any of the problems we face.

Joe Biden is less than a bandaid. He's less than a kiss to make it better. His kiss will simply deliver pathogens to an open wound.
Does that make me a member of the far right? Does that make me a Bernie Bro?

Jeff...on the one hand you love Bernie, and on the other you hate and smear his supporters. I understand centrism. As socialists go I'm probably considered center right because I believe in evolution rather than revolution. Associating me and others who believe the same as I do with the "far right" is not only an insult it is pure stupidity and beyond hyperbole.

As far as we progressives go it is you who are in cahoots with the far right by insisting everyone should vote for the quasi-republican corporate shill who is currently running to the right of Trump and his cohorts.

And I don't need to hear no crap about we can't afford four more years of Trump. Of course we can. We know exactly what to expect from him. I have been railing for over a year about how bad Biden will be.

No one...NO ONE has come to his defense here. NO ONE...not one of you actually wants him to be President. No one in the entire nation actually wants Biden to be president. They just want Trump to not be president.

And so...out of the entire huge field of candidates they chose the candidate most like Trump ideologically, as far to the right as a candidate can be and still be a Democrat. Hoping I guess, to win the votes of Republicans who don't like Trump and throwing the entire left leaning democratic constituency under the bus.

AND NOW...before the primaries are even over this dipshit is blaming the left for Biden's upcoming loss. Being better than Trump is not enough to win my vote and certainly not enough to shut me up about what a bad choice Joe Biden is.

We're not joining the far right, Jeffery, we're becoming the far left. Up until now we've played nice and haven't split the ticket.

**But mostly this**
Did you pay any attention to the online smears against Bernie Sanders and his supporters by centrists over the last few years. Did you have no Bernie haters on Facebook? Did you pay any attention?
There is a rabid anti-Bernie faction of online democrats. They were there before the first Bernie Bro logged in. They were there from the day he announced his candidacy in 2016. They created Bernie Bros to smear Bernie Sanders and the leftist faction of the party. Push a little harder and we will abandon the party altogether.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger


**But mostly this**
Did you pay any attention to the online smears against Bernie Sanders and his supporters by centrists over the last few years. Did you have no Bernie haters on Facebook? Did you pay any attention?


Not only did I witness that firsthand, I was drowned in a torrent of the exact opposite from the Busters, who then pivoted to Stein, or write in, or some other third party option.
I've already mentioned several times how every single Bernie page or group on social media got blitzkreiged.


Quote:
There is a rabid anti-Bernie faction of online democrats. They were there before the first Bernie Bro logged in. They were there from the day he announced his candidacy in 2016. They created Bernie Bros to smear Bernie Sanders and the leftist faction of the party. Push a little harder and we will abandon the party altogether.


There's rabid anti-everyone groups, anti-Bernie, anti-Biden, anti-Liz, anti-Tulsi, you name it. In the end however, one must look at the numbers. If you want to win, you need the numbers, which means you need the voters...to VOTE.

Rallies are fun. Voting is boring. The youth vote failed Bernie.
I didn't fail Bernie, people the age of my kids failed Bernie.
It wasn't a secret plot, it was dumb kids who can't be bothered to take a little time to go punch a card, pull a lever or click a button.

Sorry, I would love to know why this is a perennial problem with the youth vote. They cannot be counted on, so it seems.
And it didn't start in 2016.
Apparently it has always been that way.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/20/20 09:22 PM

Quote:
Sorry, I would love to know why this is a perennial problem with the youth vote. They cannot be counted on, so it seems.
And it didn't start in 2016.
Apparently it has always been that way.


Well, yes. Governance is generally the job of the elders. No one listens to young people or cares what they say. They count on grownups to make the right decisions. They trust us to do what is best for them. They trust us to elect candidates who will do the right thing.

Who is it exactly that can't be counted on...?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Sorry, I would love to know why this is a perennial problem with the youth vote. They cannot be counted on, so it seems.
And it didn't start in 2016.
Apparently it has always been that way.


Well, yes. Governance is generally the job of the elders. No one listens to young people or cares what they say. They count on grownups to make the right decisions. They trust us to do what is best for them. They trust us to elect candidates who will do the right thing.

Who is it exactly that can't be counted on...?


Are you serious? They're eighteen, they're legally old enough to VOTE. Now we're supposed to vote FOR them?
One vote to a customer, sorry.

I have never missed an election...I couldn't wait to vote.
And yeah, too many of my friends couldn't be bothered, but hey...they liked meeting hot girls at the protests and the rallies.

But voting? Boring.
Even my WIFE admits that she never voted until she met me.
Posted by: Ujest Shurly

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 12:36 AM

From my experience, as a one time youth, the impact and importance of elections is not realized by most youth. It is only after their brain matures and gains experience that the importance and impacts of voting become apparent to them. A young person is still experiencing an independent life, and I place the blame for their ignorance about voting on their parents.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 01:04 AM

Ronald Reagan and James Watt turned me into a voter.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 01:37 AM

Voting rates have also historically varied according to age, with older Americans generally voting at higher rates than younger Americans (Figure 4). In 2016 citizens 65 years and older reported higher turnout (70.9 percent) than 45- to 64-year-olds (66.6 percent), 30- to 44-year-olds (58.7 percent) and 18- to 29-year-olds (46.1 percent).

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2017/05/voting_in_america.html

Since 1980 18-29 year old have ranged from a low 39.6% voter turnout to a high of 52.0%. While 65 and older has ranged from 69.8% to a high of 76.1%

Figure 4 will give you the break down for the rest.

I don't blame the parents. Most kids have too many other things going on. Most worry more about how their favorite sports team are doing, having parties, going to college, working, a bunch of other things. Being young one doesn't worry too much or pay much attention to who is president or which party control congress.

It's natural.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 02:12 AM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Ronald Reagan and James Watt turned me into a voter.


I turned eighteen in 1973.
The Grin Will Win was my first presidential election, and The Grin won.

Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 03:29 AM

Quote:
Are you serious? They're eighteen, they're legally old enough to VOTE. Now we're supposed to vote FOR them?
One vote to a customer, sorry.

We're supposed to be the grownups in the room. Do we allow 18 year olds to become president? Nope. Do we even allow 35 years olds to be president? Nope...Why? Because young people don't have good sense.

But you're all pissy because they didn't get out and vote for the candidate that you wanted to win while also smearing his supporters for months on end.

Governing is a grownup game and the kids really aren't invited. The constant anti-Bernie rhetoric drove them away.

They know Bernie would never be allowed to win whether they vote or not. Kids are pretty smart.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger

But you're all pissy because they didn't get out and vote for the candidate that you wanted to win while also smearing his supporters for months on end.

Governing is a grownup game and the kids really aren't invited. The constant anti-Bernie rhetoric drove them away.


Well now, that's refreshingly selective.
I guess the anti-everyone else rhetoric drove everyone else away, too...all except for Republicans, who somehow managed to just show up and pull a lever.
You'er making excuses and, on a far less important level, assigning selective memory to my posting history.

But it's okay, take a bow for the new generation.
They're clearly unable to do so for themselves, and God knows every previous generation deserves scorn for all the times they gave the younguns the sadz and made them fail to show up and vote, too.
Okay Boomer, got it wink

Originally Posted By: Greger

They know Bernie would never be allowed to win whether they vote or not. Kids are pretty smart.


Good Lord, you just confirmed Rosario's entire point! LOL
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 03:45 PM

Rosarios point: a Facebook post that offers me a frame to confirm my bias.

Youth vote sucked when voting age was dropped to 18 and a war with conscription was happening.

What I did see was youth getting off their arse and out working other candidates professional organizations and not confining themselves to sh!tposting on the internet.

It’s hilarious watching liberals grind up their planting corn by rat effing the primaries.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 03:56 PM

Biden is seen by most as being the more electable candidate. The one who has the best chance of defeating Trump. That is what the older folks are voting for. It's true the young, 18-29 are far more passionate for Sanders. They are much less likely to take into consideration which candidate has the best chance of winning in November.

An example is that Biden is leading Trump in head to head polls nationally by 8 points. Sanders leads Trump by 5. This becomes more apparent when looking at the swing states.

Wisconsin, Biden ahead of Trump by 3, Sanders tied
Florida, Biden and Trump tied, Trump 5 points ahead of Sanders
Michigan Biden by 5, Sanders by 4
Pennsylvania Biden by 4, Sanders by 2
North Carolina Biden by 4 Sanders and Trump tied
Arizona Biden by 4, Trump over Sanders by 2
Ohio Biden by 5, Sanders by 2


And so on. It's my opinion Democrats are voting for electable over ideology. I think there is no question Sanders supporters are the more passionate. But it seems cold, hard numbers is winning over passion. That and the fact the more passionate younger voters are showing up to vote. They may be more passionate, but their passion isn't bringing them to the polls.

The older voters seem to be going with the candidate with the best chance of winning in November. my opinion anyway.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: perotista
Biden is seen by most as being the more electable candidate.


Only because the youth vote can't be counted on.
By the way, a lot of that is directly attributable to the fact that we no longer do an adequate job of teaching anything remotely resembling Civics anymore. As Civics has faded from school curriculums, youth participation in actual VOTING has receded.

Never forget that Republicans DO NOT WANT EVERYONE TO VOTE.

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: perotista
That and the fact the more passionate younger voters are showing up to vote. They may be more passionate, but their passion isn't bringing them to the polls.


Ummmm, did you maybe forget to include the word "not" ?
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
That and the fact the more passionate younger voters are showing up to vote. They may be more passionate, but their passion isn't bringing them to the polls.


Ummmm, did you maybe forget to include the word "not" ?

Yeah, fingers faster than mind or the mind thinking one thing, fingers typing another.

In 1996 only 39% of those between 18-29 voted. Of course 1996 only 49% of all Americans voted, the first time since 1924 we've been under 50% in an presidential election year.

I agree on the lack of civics in school. The high for 18-29 year old's voting was in 1992, I guess they liked Bill Clinton and in 2008, Obama's first election year at 51%. The only times 18-29 year old's have been over 50%.

Those 45 and up tend to average 70% turnout in comparison. Where as 30-44 year old's averaging 60%. Huge difference in voting percentages depending on age.

Could be as simple as the older one gets, the more attention one pays to politics.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 09:17 PM

You know, leave me alone with nothing to do but think, and I will sure as sh!t find a way to get into trouble. Not originally my line, borrowed it from Harlan Ellison, but it might as well be mine because it fits.

There is STILL an outside chance for socialism, and it's the economy.
All the happy talk about how the economy is going to come roaring back with a vengeance in a couple of weeks sounds like a feeble old man whistling a nervous nonsense tune at an open stall in a strange public restroom.

A month or two of lockdown, with it going national some time in the next two weeks, and continuing for even maybe a month after that, with continuing extreme measures in the following month, and then a predicted resurgence of the virus once again when people start touching, coughing, spitting, associating, etc etc?
The Atlantic Magazine is saying that the virus will appear to lull and then come back again.

Hate to say it but my money says the economy will be toast in 90 days, and by July the Great Depression is going to look like a Boy Scout Jamboree.

Young adults who were just starting out in life will be moving back home with the parental units, low pay workers will be homeless in mass numbers, crime wil spike and horrific stories of deprivation and depravity from across Flyover Country will evoke apocalyptic images that will scar readers for life.

By September or October even basic services may begin to fail because there won't be enough of a revenue base to keep them afloat.

Unless...SOCIALISM.
Will there be a come to Jesus moment when the majority on both sides finally understand that socialism has the capacity to "save [some form of] capitalism"?

I can guarantee you, Ayn Rand's rugged individualism won't do it unless we embrace WARLORD culture, the kind that eats both young and old alike, and any semblance of morality.

Unless....SOCIALISM.

Sadly, I honestly don't know if Bernie will survive, but if that come to Jesus moment arrives and he is still hale and hearty, there is a slim chance we may witness a phoenix arising from the ashes.

And suddenly a lot of those who have "moved on" (yes, myself among them) will have to have their own come to Jesus moment.
I won't...I'm a total whore when it comes to practical considerations for my continued survival.

The question is, what happens to the primary math, what happens to the delegates, what happens to the convention, what happens to the voters?
Does Bernie get a chance or does Biden suddenly embrace Bernie's ideas, is there a huge fight over who is plagiarizing who, is there a spirit of cooperation, does Biden even understand what he will face?

IS IT possible or am I having a massive brain fart?
And yes, there is the specter of Trump capitalizing on all of this as his moment in the Sun, God help us all.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/21/20 09:51 PM

On the other hand...

Are we about to witness "It Can't Happen Here" writ large?

Perhaps we should blame Biden for that, too.
Trump's clean, he and Bill Barr are blameless. wink

Jimmy Dore's right, we should "work with Trump".
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/22/20 12:10 AM

Quote:
Could be as simple as the older one gets, the more attention one pays to politics.


Could be.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/22/20 03:27 AM

I keep reading posts online about "Democrats are not helping people". What are they supposed to do? March over to the senate and get the republicans in headlocks until they pass some of the house bills, and then go over to the White House and threaten Trump with physical violence until he signs them?

Specifically, they are blaming Biden. He's a professor at University of Pennsylvania, not an office holder. Sanders is at least a senator, though he's not even a member of the minority party!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/22/20 03:30 PM

They are supposed to do politics. They've become ineffectual as all corrupt institutions eventually do over time.

Republicans, on the other hand, see the opportunity for what it is. They are flanking Democrats on the left, at least in proposals. Much like Trump did in 2016.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/22/20 06:13 PM

Bernie's calling for $2000 a month payment for all Americans...Democrats are compromising and doing whatever Republicans ask.
Not much in the news about Biden. I guess he's going along with Republicans since that what he's promised to do. And staying indoors because he's old and frail.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/22/20 07:36 PM

Yeah. Aunt Nancy's stingy, means testing proposal seems to have gotten a lot of scorn. I'm more and more convinced with the parties behavior in the last three election cycles that the Democratic party is little more now than the H.R. department of the Republican party.

It won't even back a progressive without republican approval.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/22/20 07:56 PM

Quote:
They are supposed to do politics.


I think the House has "done politics" in passing well over 400 bills the senate is just ignoring. Again, I ask: What more are they supposed to do? Stand on street corners and curse? I think they are going on TV political shows and talking about all the things we should be and should not be doing. Just because you are not watching those shows is not their fault.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/24/20 10:59 PM

Bernie Sanders Will Participate in April Dem. Debate, Refuses to Drop Out of Presidential Race
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/25/20 01:18 AM


I'm not a bit surprised, I fully expect Sanders to keep going all the way to the convention exactly like he did in 2016. I would have been really surprised if Sanders decided to withdraw.

Not much going on in April, 4 Apr we have Hawaii, Alaska and Wyoming. 7 Apr is Wisconsin. Then on the 28th comes Pennsylvania, New York, Rhode Island and Delaware. That's it.

Today, Sanders trails Biden by 11 in Wisconsin, by 29 in Pennsylvania, by 17 in New York. The rest don't have enough delegates to look them up in the polls. Lots of time left to allow Sanders to shrink Biden's lead in those states. One never knows what may happen or what unforeseen event or mistake could take place. But if my math is right, each state awards delegates a bit different, but all are proportional. Sanders would have to win all the remaining states by an average of 25 points to catch Biden.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/25/20 01:12 PM

He won’t do it but he should threaten to split the party and mean it if he doesn’t extract concessions from the DNC. No more kneecapping down ballot leftists or progressive, a reorienting of the party to people and not corporate money. Get rid of the super delegates. Go back to paper ballots with transparent counting.
He won’t. Many voters will fall away in the general.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/25/20 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Many voters will fall away in the general.


Then you deserve whatever happens to you.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 02:36 AM

Millions that voted for Obama got screwed out of their houses. Unions got screwed voting for Clinton.

I guess by that logic they got what they deserved.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 04:55 AM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Millions that voted for Obama got screwed out of their houses. Unions got screwed voting for Clinton.

I guess by that logic they got what they deserved.



What are we talking about, the subprime mortgage meltdown?
Are you saying that Obama's policies and actions to combat that crisis made things worse than they would have been absent those actions?

Is there any specific thing that he did that specifically was aimed at screwing over homeowners, specifically tied to the meltdown, like some kind of executive order that hurt these people?

What time frame are you referring to?
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 11:41 AM

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
2007-2008 housing collapse.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 11:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Is there any specific thing that he did that specifically was aimed at screwing over homeowners, specifically tied to the meltdown, like some kind of executive order that hurt these people?

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Yes.

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
What time frame are you referring to?

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
2007-2008 housing collapse.

Welp, BAMZ!!! was not prezzie until January 20, 2009. BAMZ!!! was a great president, but I doubt his poliices could effect us Americans prior to him becoming prezzie.

But, your mileage may vary. coffee
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 12:15 PM

Your ‘Bamz’ was President for TARP bailouts, recapitalization of banks, robo-signing (that our current treasury secretary is guilty of having committed but Kamela Harris didn’t pursue, apparently) and also had his justice department to prosecute the massive criminality but did nothing.

Sorry Rick. People remember.



Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 12:22 PM

“Before passing the bill, the Senate rejected an amendment proposed by Sen. Ben Sasse, R-Neb., to cap unemployment insurance at a recipient’s previous wages. The bill adds $600 per week to the benefits a recipient would normally get for up to four months. Sasse’s amendment failed in a 48-48 vote.

The senator and three of his GOP colleagues threatened to delay passage of the legislation if they could not get a vote on an amendment. Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., then suggested he could hold up the bill’s approval if they did not back down from their opposition.”

Sanders putting in the work
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 03:00 PM

This Sanders should have been going after Biden in the last debate.
Meds or no meds, Biden’s loathsome career of appeasing his corporate donors at the expense of Americans should have been ruthlessly exploited.

Still, it’s good to see his populist anger trained on the rich and their servants.

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Your ‘Bamz’ was President for TARP bailouts, recapitalization of banks, robo-signing (that our current treasury secretary is guilty of having committed but Kamela Harris didn’t pursue, apparently) and also had his justice department to prosecute the massive criminality but did nothing.

Sorry Rick. People remember.


Kamala Harris worked directly for the Obama Administration White House staff in 2008-9-10, etc? I didn't know that.
She was a state AG.
Are we still talking about anything related to the upcoming election and why getting rid of Trump is the best idea no matter what?
Bernie is the ideal but Bernie or no Bernie, getting rid of Trump is paramount.

I do remember that Congress refused to help the Obama administration go after a lot of this skullduggery, but as others have said, your mileage may vary.

I do actually remember Liz Warren grilling some bank execs in Congress, and going after SEC sins, but alas much of that carried over past 2016 and we all know what happened a good many of those cases.
Many of them got put through the Trump wringer one way or another, as Trump has managed to pretty much declaw the CFPB, which by the way, arose as a result of the Obama administration's response to the mortgage crisis.

As for the robo-signing, a bill that was launched in Congress as a response to the robo-signing crisis was vetoed by Obama because it was felt that the bill would actually make it easier for lenders to foreclose on even MORE homes.

What did precipitate from this was a mass of legal actions against the banks and other lenders.

Since the majority Republican Congress was only interested in protecting banks instead of going after them, a series of lawsuits was the only remedy.
That tends to be how these things shake out when a President faces a corrupt opposition party who is determined to stifle his efforts wholesale.

Yes, people do remember, but some have selective memories.








Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Your ‘Bamz’ was President for TARP bailouts, recapitalization of banks, robo-signing (that our current treasury secretary is guilty of having committed but Kamela Harris didn’t pursue, apparently) and also had his justice department to prosecute the massive criminality but did nothing.

Sorry Rick. People remember.


Kamala Harris worked directly for the Obama Administration in 2008-9-10, etc? I didn't know that.
I do remember that Congress refused to help the Obama administration go after a lot of this skullduggery, but as others have said, your mileage may vary.

As for the robo-signing, a bill that was launched in Congress as a response to the robo-signing crisis was vetoed by Obama because it was felt that the bill would actually make it easier for lenders to foreclose on even MORE homes.

What did precipitate from this was a mass of legal actions against the banks and other lenders.

Since the majority Republican Congress was only interested in protecting banks instead of going after them, a series of lawsuits was the only remedy.
That tends to be how these things shake out when a President faces a corrupt opposition party who is determined to stifle his efforts wholesale.

Yes, people do remember, but some have selective memories.



I didn't say it. You really like putting words in peoples mouths Jeff. As a former Dem Presidential primary participant and a possible VP pick, it is relevant.

Her office didn't file a suit against Mnuchin's OneWest while her office found thousands of violations. If you know of a reasonable answer to why she didn't prosecute as a states' attorney general please share.

I won't bother arguing the typical 'Dems can't do anything cuz republicans would make it hard, etc, etc.

'If Dems can't do anything because of political opposition why have Dems?', would become a logical and reasonable question.

If the Dems can't leverage overwhelming public opinion and support on matters of bank fraud or healthcare or a pay raise then what value are they and to whom would be a reasonable question.

Was there public support to bail out the bankers and amnisty for the criminality? Don't recall that at the time but your mileage may vary.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 06:49 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


Her office didn't file a suit against Mnuchin's OneWest while her office found thousands of violations. If you know of a reasonable answer to why she didn't prosecute as a states' attorney general please share.

I won't bother arguing the typical 'Dems can't do anything cuz republicans would make it hard, etc, etc.

'If Dems can't do anything because of political opposition why have Dems?', would become a logical and reasonable question.

If the Dems can't leverage overwhelming public opinion and support on matters of bank fraud or healthcare or a pay raise then what value are they and to whom would be a reasonable question.

Was there public support to bail out the bankers and amnisty for the criminality? Don't recall that at the time but your mileage may vary.


It does vary because if you have the numbers, then you will get to drive vehicles of change. If you don't, handing it over in a fit of pique to the current criminals doesn't sound smart to me.

But if that does come to pass, it's going to eventually wind up being a very very long distance call if I want to voice further objections.

And I can't do a damn thing about that.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 10:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Bernie's calling for $2000 a month payment for all Americans...


I'm calling for fifty-thousand a month for all Americans, but I'd sure be happy with two thousand. Unfortunately I didn't have any better luck than anyone else, Bernie included.
So I guess we're not getting 50000...or even 2000.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/26/20 11:56 PM



Somebody is fighting for us, but he shouldn't be allowed to because he isn't a Democrat.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/27/20 12:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger


Somebody is fighting for us, but he shouldn't be allowed to because he isn't a Democrat.


Well I'm not saying anything like that.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/27/20 03:43 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Your ‘Bamz’ was President for TARP bailouts, recapitalization of banks, robo-signing (that our current treasury secretary is guilty of having committed but Kamela Harris didn’t pursue, apparently) and also had his justice department to prosecute the massive criminality but did nothing.

Sorry Rick. People remember.

I was speaking specifically to that dates which you cited. smile

For the things that Obama did while he was president. Rearview mirror hindsight is always better. Neel Kashkari summed it up best in last Sunday's 60 Minutes interview.

Hmm
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/27/20 05:38 PM

You only have to look at who Obama stocked in his pond and how that decision making process came about to see Obama for what he really was.

Then their was the actions taken by Treasury.

Millions of people underwater

Banks recapitalized

Walked away from his mandate and campaign promises.

He projected cool so he had that going for him, I guess.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/28/20 04:48 PM



I'm sorry that BAMZ!!!! was such a big disappointment for you chunky. frown
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/28/20 05:36 PM

Meh,

He has served as a cautionary reminder of how easy it is to get caught up in empty rhetoric and how sustainable it is to maintain a fiction.

At least many are coming around to this realization. Fool me once, shame on me kinda thing.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/28/20 06:06 PM

The Obama's...You gotta love 'em. These are truly decent people.

People who all decent people can look up to and admire!

Decency drips from their swarthy skin.

They practically glow with goodness, and light up every room they walk into.

But nobody ever called him a fighter.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/28/20 11:14 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Meh,

He has served as a cautionary reminder of how easy it is to get caught up in empty rhetoric and how sustainable it is to maintain a fiction.

At least many are coming around to this realization. Fool me once, shame on me kinda thing.

Welp, Joe isn't promising the moon, just to bring decency and normalcy back into our government by putting people who really know their areas of expertise well back into those respective areas of government.

smile
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/28/20 11:48 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Meh,

He has served as a cautionary reminder of how easy it is to get caught up in empty rhetoric and how sustainable it is to maintain a fiction.

At least many are coming around to this realization. Fool me once, shame on me kinda thing.


Welp, Joe isn't promising the moon, just to be decency and normalcy back into our government by putting people who really know their areas of expertise well back into those respective areas of government.

smile


I want a whole lot more than that and so do a lot of folks who fancy themselves revolutionaries.
But revolutions require multitudes and...to quote Pogo - - "Thunk they wuz a multitude a-comin ta see me..dog-bone, that ain't much of a multitude!"



Yeah, damn shame...and I mean that, it sucks.
But absent that multitude, my instincts tell me to go to the nearest thing, not attack everyone who won't go down Revolutionary Road with me.
If the road is a dead end, it's a dead end.

It's like saying, "I got a cold, think I'll take a shot of malaria."
("Talkin' John Birch Society Blues" - Bob Dylan)

To Chunkstyle: If you're that dissatisfied that you'd rather see four more years of Trump, that's on you, bud.
But if you think you can muster the numbers to start that revolution, then get busy...otherwise all of this is just talk and talk is cheap.

Trump is not cheap. Trump is proving to be very expensive.
And he's a luxury most people cannot afford.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 12:12 AM

Quote:
Joe isn't promising the moon


Joe isn't promising much of anything. Not liable to deliver much either.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 12:37 AM

Quote:
my instincts tell me to go to the nearest thing


And the nearest thing to a Republican is Joe Biden.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 02:05 AM

Disagreeing with you and not going down your team blue road is not an attack.
Vote for Biden. Who’s stopping you? No ones asked you to vote for Sanders.
Likewise I’m also free to point out what a craptacular candidate Biden is and his horrible career in government. That should be reasonable, shouldn’t it?

No ones saying you should not vote for a serial liar, corporate servant, authoritarian accused rapist with a blue logo vs. a serial liar, corporate servant, authoritarian accused rapist with a red logo. That’s your decision as it is mine to not.

That’s not an attack. Just an ironic observation.




Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 05:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Meh,

He has served as a cautionary reminder of how easy it is to get caught up in empty rhetoric and how sustainable it is to maintain a fiction.

At least many are coming around to this realization. Fool me once, shame on me kinda thing.


Welp, Joe isn't promising the moon, just to be decency and normalcy back into our government by putting people who really know their areas of expertise well back into those respective areas of government.

smile


I want a whole lot more than that and so do a lot of folks who fancy themselves revolutionaries.

People in Hell want iced-water too. coffee They're not going to get it. smile

As I wrote to Greger recently, your fellow Dems have decided who the Dem nominee is going to be. And, as I also stated, there were 17 Dems wanting to be POTUS, Dems of all shapes and sizes, Dems with all unique perspectives, Dems of different genders, and different ethnicities. smile

Your fellow Dems picked Joe Biden. Hmm

Vote blue, no matter who. Please and thank you. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 05:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Joe isn't promising the moon


Joe isn't promising much of anything. Not liable to deliver much either.

That's what you fellow Dems want. Hmm I'm just going with the flow. smile
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 02:28 PM

The Liberal Dems have had a concerted effort to rat F and suppress votes in the primaries while shaping a media narrative around the results of that rat f.
So that’s fine and pretty much sums up the Dem party. As I’ve always said, it’s an illiberal one that picks its nominated for its adherents to vote for, or ‘going with the flow’.

Party Dem’s are no different than MAGA chuds really. Believing in wild conspiracies, the infallibility of party doctrine and authoritarian seeking leaders.

I see very little to chose between Trump or Biden when it comes to policy. Both are crooked as a cork screw with the exception that Trump has much higher enthusiasm with his base than does Biden.

This enthusiasm gap may come back to haunt the Dem establishment. You can’t crap on one of the more diverse, enthusiastic coalitions and rat f them in the primaries but turn around and expect them to vote for you in the general, as happened in 2016.

My hope is Biden looses, the money walks away from the Dem party and allows a space for something better down the road. Good riddance to bad rubbish, etc
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 03:33 PM

Biden is or will be the Democratic nominee. With 1677 delegates still to be awarded, Biden need 775 of them to reach the magic number of 1991. That 46.2% of all delegates left. Sanders needs 1077 or 64.3% of the remaining delegates. In simple English, Sanders must defeat Biden by 30 points in all remaining primaries to get the nomination. That isn't about to happen as Biden has leads of 10 to 30 plus points in the remaining states that have been polled.

The primaries scheduled for 4 Apr, Wyoming, Alaska and Hawaii, those states haven't been polls.

Wisconsin on 7 Apr has Biden up by 9

Primaries on 28 Apr
Pennsylvania Biden by 23
New York Biden by 16
Rhode Island hasn't been polled
Delaware Biden by 22

May and June primaries are too far out for a poll to be meaningful.

Now why would some Sanders supporters support Biden? They didn't support Hillary in 2016. We don't know how many stayed home as exit polls can't poll them. But we do know that Democrats voted for Hillary by a 89-8 margin over Trump with 3% voting third party. Sanders supporters who showed up at the polls did vote for Hillary, but by a 75-12 margin with a whopping 13% voting third party. Recent estimate place the percentage at 25% of Sanders supporters that won't vote for Biden. That's good news if one is a Trumper.
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 04:12 PM

Not fair! Bernie PROMISED to support the Democratic candidate for president! Are you suggesting that Bernie will not keep his word?

SHAME!
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 04:48 PM

Sanders will. Though the Democratic Party actively worked against him he will.
I don’t think progressives will come In the same numbers as they did in 2016 with 2020 being a similar repeat of Party interference.
You can’t shame people into voting. That’s not even politics.

By the way, Biden’s an accused rapist.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 05:02 PM

Whether progressives show up or not is strictly up to them. Now there is another group of voters that if Biden is denied the nomination because they think is due to shenanigans within the democratic party, especially since Biden has received the most vote, up to this time anyway. approximately 2.5 million more than sanders.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Blacks may be very reluctant to show up at the polls. They prefer Biden 70% to 24% over Sanders.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 05:20 PM

Why would Black be reluctant? They seem particularly motivated up until now, and heavily favor Biden.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 05:44 PM

The whole southern black voting bloc is a primary farce. I join the view that it’s primary purpose is to skew the media narratives of electability to a conservative geographic region that Dems don’t fare too well in with the general.

But yeah, if your posting numbers after the fact and not involved in numbers leading up to, say, Mass or Iowa, you didn’t have a front seat to the rat effing the Dem party engages in the primaries.

If you’ve ever been in a down ballot campaign for a Leftist progressive it’s even more overt. Plenty on Rahm Emanuel reporting here. I have never seen leftists thus angry or the media crafting fictions so obvious.

Note the current black out of Biden’s rape accuser as just one easy example of media craft. Not fact checking Biden’s raft of lies in his last debate would be another. Media shapes reality and has favored the enfeebled creep heavily.

Still no word from the Warren camp on the rape charges....
Nothing from the #resistance or pussy hats either..
Nothing from the pussy grabbing hot mic obsessed media...
No Neera Tandem tweets of support.

Kinda proves they should have never been taken seriously. It’s always been a morally transactional crowd with no solidarity.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 06:04 PM

Quote:
Blacks may be very reluctant to show up at the polls.


Hows come?

I have no idea what other progressives might do, their vote is entirely their own to use or not use as they see fit. Perhaps when enough Americans just stop voting because it's a complete waste of time, the government will stop pretending that it cares one way or another about the voters. Then maybe we can get down to business.

And I don't need to hear any crap about "our democracy" because I haven't seen anything democratic about our government in my lifetime and history hasn't shown me that it existed at any point since the signing of the declaration either.

It's all about rich folks finagling government into doing what makes them the most money.

Voting for Biden because he will take us back to a time before Trump is rubbish. Any of the other 27 candidates could hire qualified people.

Biden will just lead us to the next Trump.

Mitch McConnell is almost old enough to run for president now isn't he?
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 06:20 PM

Quote:
By the way, Biden’s an accused rapist.


Trump's is accused of child rape, and Sanders is accused of supporting pedophilia in some of his old writings. I think everybody has figured out by now under the Chief Pussygrabber Administration that 30 year old allegations of sexual misconduct don't mean much. 30 years ago, pretty much all men were more sexually aggressive. Some still are, but most of us have a few events in our past that make us cringe now.

Sometime in the past we got drunk and did stupid things. We got high on illegal drugs too, and broke even more laws by giving them to our friends. We even posted stuff online or looked at porn that we shouldn't have. We are all human, and humans make mistakes.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Why would Black be reluctant? They seem particularly motivated up until now, and heavily favor Biden.

Yes, Black supporters support Joe Biden by a large margin and they don't support Bernie.

The black support for Hillary was low as well. Hmm

Quote:
Voter apathy and Clinton's failure to connect with the black community -- particularly African American millennials disillusioned with establishment Democratic politics -- were also part of the problem.

- Newsweek.com


Americans now understand the existential threat to our country and that is why "Vote Blue, No Matter Who" materialized. smile
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 07:16 PM

Love your rationalizing, PIA. The wellspring of so many absurd ideas.

We heard all about Trumps sexual vulgarities and possible criminality by libs here at the rant. Couldn’t get enough posting on it during the 2016 election and beyond here.

Biden has had several women coming forward on improper behavior with one on the record as having been pressed to a wall and finger F’d by Biden.

Finally, there’s a difference between sanders writing about an idea as a young man with no literal other parties involved and having a women penetrated against her will.

Are you that cretinous to argue equivalency? Are there levels of rapiness in the liberal world. Some deserving attention, others not do much.

I’m going with ‘yes’. It’s the most glaring feature of liberals.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 07:26 PM

Quote:
Americans now understand the existential threat to our country

No they don't. If they did Trump would not be president and Biden would not be the nominee.

Vote Blue No Matter Who...
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Why would Black be reluctant? They seem particularly motivated up until now, and heavily favor Biden.


I said they could be reluctant if by some shenanigan the Democratic Party, DNC takes the nomination away from Biden. In other words, progressives might not be the only block of voters who wouldn't support the Democratic nominee whole heartily if their man doesn't get nominated.
Posted by: NW Ponderer

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 08:40 PM

Oh! I didn't grok that.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The whole southern black voting bloc is a primary farce. I join the view that it’s primary purpose is to skew the media narratives of electability to a conservative geographic region that Dems don’t fare too well in with the general.

But yeah, if your posting numbers after the fact and not involved in numbers leading up to, say, Mass or Iowa, you didn’t have a front seat to the rat effing the Dem party engages in the primaries.

If you’ve ever been in a down ballot campaign for a Leftist progressive it’s even more overt. Plenty on Rahm Emanuel reporting here. I have never seen leftists thus angry or the media crafting fictions so obvious.

Note the current black out of Biden’s rape accuser as just one easy example of media craft. Not fact checking Biden’s raft of lies in his last debate would be another. Media shapes reality and has favored the enfeebled creep heavily.

Still no word from the Warren camp on the rape charges....
Nothing from the #resistance or pussy hats either..
Nothing from the pussy grabbing hot mic obsessed media...
No Neera Tandem tweets of support.

Kinda proves they should have never been taken seriously. It’s always been a morally transactional crowd with no solidarity.


From around December of last year until Iowa, Biden was running between 50-60% the first choice of blacks. Here's an old poll from 31 Dec 2019 show Biden with 52% support from blacks, Sanders 10% and Warren 15%

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/2r6hyqtv9p/econTabReport.pdf
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/29/20 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Blacks may be very reluctant to show up at the polls.


Hows come?

I have no idea what other progressives might do, their vote is entirely their own to use or not use as they see fit. Perhaps when enough Americans just stop voting because it's a complete waste of time, the government will stop pretending that it cares one way or another about the voters. Then maybe we can get down to business.

And I don't need to hear any crap about "our democracy" because I haven't seen anything democratic about our government in my lifetime and history hasn't shown me that it existed at any point since the signing of the declaration either.

It's all about rich folks finagling government into doing what makes them the most money.

Voting for Biden because he will take us back to a time before Trump is rubbish. Any of the other 27 candidates could hire qualified people.

Biden will just lead us to the next Trump.

Mitch McConnell is almost old enough to run for president now isn't he?
Everyone of us, each individual has reasons for the way they vote or even why they don't bother to vote. My son who turned 52 has never bothered to vote. His reason, Washington does what it wants to do regardless of who is in charge.

Whether you vote or not is your business. Who you vote for is your business if you do. All I wanted to point out is if shenanigans occur with the nomination process, there are other groups who could get very angry other than progressives or Sanders supporters.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/30/20 01:07 AM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Why would Black be reluctant? They seem particularly motivated up until now, and heavily favor Biden.

Yes, Black supporters support Joe Biden by a large margin and they don't support Bernie.

The black support for Hillary was low as well. Hmm

Quote:
Voter apathy and Clinton's failure to connect with the black community -- particularly African American millennials disillusioned with establishment Democratic politics -- were also part of the problem.

- Newsweek.com


Americans now understand the existential threat to our country and that is why "Vote Blue, No Matter Who" materialized. smile


Few people know that Sanders in 2016 actually edged out Hillary among white voters in the Democratic Primary. But with Hillary receiving close to 80% of the black vote, she won going away.

In the general election Blacks voted for Hillary by an 89-8 margin over Trump.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

Not as good as they voted for Obama in 2012 93-6 over Romney.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2012/results/race/president/

But Hillary wasn't black.

Further history of black voting.

2008 95-4 Obama over McCain
2004 88-11 Kerry over Bush
2000 90-8 Gore over Bush
1996 84-12 Clinton over Dole
1992 83-10 Clinton over Bush
1988 86-12 Dukakis over Bush
1984 90-9 Mondale over Reagan
1980 85-11 Carter over Reagan
1976 83-16 Carter over Ford
1972 82-18 McGovern over Nixon

https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2008/results/president/national-exit-polls.html

As you can see the 89% support for Hillary is probably two or three points above the historical average of black support for the Democratic nominee. Trump receiving 8% of the black vote was lower than other Republican nominees except McCain, Romney who were up against Obama and Bush in 2000 which received the same 8%.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/30/20 01:20 AM

This is interesting, "Poll: 15% of Sanders supporters will vote for Trump if Biden is nominee; 80% would back Biden."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/poll-15-sanders-supporters-vote-185748015.html
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/30/20 02:47 AM

I would assume that is the 15% of Sanders supporters who can only see the choices as black versus white: Sanders is white, and anything else is black. Pretty much a personality cult. I actually voted for Sanders in the California primary, but I am rational enough to see Biden, the grey choice, is preferable over Trump. Or maybe some of them think Sanders has a better chance running in 2024 if enough people are sick of Trump.

Well I got news for them: Sanders will not be a viable candidate in 2024, and if Trump wins I doubt there would even be elections in 2024. The election this time is to decide if we want a Republic of Laws, or a dictatorship. If we go with Dictatorship it's VERY hard to go back.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/30/20 02:59 AM

Quote:
Are you that cretinous to argue equivalency? Are there levels of rapiness in the liberal world. Some deserving attention, others not do much. I’m going with ‘yes’. It’s the most glaring feature of liberals.


No, I'm quite sympathetic with #MeToo: Some huge percentage of women now report times when they have been sexually assaulted. My own mother was a legal secretary, even to the governor of Alaska, and she can tell you plenty of stories about being chased around the desk and getting pawed by otherwise upstanding men. She had a nice figure, and that's just how things were back then.

All I'm doing is saying everybody can sling mud. All those women were not just being assaulted by one guy. If one party ignores it entirely and the other party kicks Al Franken out of the Senate, then we have a problem of voluntary crippling the party for purity's sake.

Calling me and most of the other members here rapey cretins is not going to win anybody over to your positions.
Posted by: chunkstyle

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/30/20 03:38 AM

Uhhh nooo...

I just called your false equivalency cretinous. Which it is. It’s stupid.

Your drawing equivalency to writing about something to a potential assault with possible victims.

Then this gem:

“Sometime in the past we got drunk and did stupid things. We got high on illegal drugs too, and broke even more laws by giving them to our friends. We even posted stuff online or looked at porn that we shouldn't have. We are all human, and humans make mistakes.“

O.K. Trying to figure out if your saying sometimes we did stupid things and we did a little raping? Looking at porn is equal to a sexual assault allegation?

Doesn’t matter really. The point is if you can work up indignation and outrage over Trump or Kavanaugh but go mute or make lame excuses with Biden then you’ve outed yourself as a hypocrite.

Goes for Media as well. Only reenforces the ‘fake news’ image. Liberal morality is transactional and hypocritical and only interested in tone policing for others.

Yet I wonder what some members here were posting at the time of the Trump allegations or Kavanuagh confirmation?

No ones trying to win you over PIA. That’s a fools errand.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/30/20 12:44 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I would assume that is the 15% of Sanders supporters who can only see the choices as black versus white: Sanders is white, and anything else is black. Pretty much a personality cult. I actually voted for Sanders in the California primary, but I am rational enough to see Biden, the grey choice, is preferable over Trump. Or maybe some of them think Sanders has a better chance running in 2024 if enough people are sick of Trump.

Well I got news for them: Sanders will not be a viable candidate in 2024, and if Trump wins I doubt there would even be elections in 2024. The election this time is to decide if we want a Republic of Laws, or a dictatorship. If we go with Dictatorship it's VERY hard to go back.


Yes, that's how I see it also. Personality cult. They worship the man, my man or no one. But if one looks at both major parties as being corporate owned, owing their heart and souls to corporations, wall street, lobbyists, special interests, mega money donors and the like, I can understand them.

I do disagree on the dictatorship part. I heard the same thing being said about Obama by some Republicans when he was president. They were so afraid Obama wouldn't step down.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 04:19 PM

Reality Has Endorsed Bernie Sanders
This is a good read and I suggest you all read it to better understand the Sanders Insurgency.

It's not about the man, it's about an economy and two parties who have let down the American people. Biden has stated that he is unequivocally against Medicare For All even during a pandemic, because it failed in Italy. Profits for insurance companies must be assured, poor people are poor because they made bad decisions, industry must be bailed out regardless of their bad decisions.

It's not a cult of personality, it is a pragmatic glance at what's going to happen if we don't change our ways. Biden is not an agent of change.

If you are all satisfied with things exactly the way they're going then by all means shun those leftists and vote for Biden or Trump!

There is no ideological difference between the two.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Reality Has Endorsed Bernie Sanders
This is a good read and I suggest you all read it to better understand the Sanders Insurgency.

It's not about the man, it's about an economy and two parties who have let down the American people. Biden has stated that he is unequivocally against Medicare For All even during a pandemic, because it failed in Italy. Profits for insurance companies must be assured, poor people are poor because they made bad decisions, industry must be bailed out regardless of their bad decisions.

It's not a cult of personality, it is a pragmatic glance at what's going to happen if we don't change our ways. Biden is not an agent of change.

If you are all satisfied with things exactly the way they're going then by all means shun those leftists and vote for Biden or Trump!

There is no ideological difference between the two.



I do not know ANYBODY who thinks Bernie is a cult of personality.
I just know that there's a small faction of people who are dickheads about working the process because they don't understand it, and I know another small faction who didn't bother to vote.

The rest, the overwhelming majority of Sanders supporters are just people who are now disappointed that he didn't get the numbers, and I suspect that a lot of them are wondering if it is possible for a miracle to happen that puts Sanders ahead.

I have no idea how that would or could work, but of course if it did happen, I would be overjoyed.
Know who's not overjoyed? A bunch of low information establishment Dems who don't bother to deep dive on the issues, so they think that a rewind to the Clinton/Obama period is all that's needed.
Their counterparts in Congress are equally obtuse.

And it looks like most of them are now dumbfounded and cannot understand how to parse the current crisis.

Given that both Bernie and Biden are old and high-risk, there is a definite possibility, no matter how remote, that both could be in danger from this virus, so all bets are off.

What do we do if BOTH of them are incapacitated?
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 07:37 PM

Quote:
I do not know ANYBODY who thinks Bernie is a cult of personality.

Yes you do...
Did you read the previous two posts? Apparently many feel that way.

Originally Posted By: jgw
Pretty much a personality cult.


Originally Posted By: perotista
that's how I see it also. Personality cult. They worship the man, my man or no one.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Love your rationalizing, PIA. The wellspring of so many absurd ideas.

We heard all about Trumps sexual vulgarities and possible criminality by libs here at the rant. Couldn’t get enough posting on it during the 2016 election and beyond here.

Biden has had several women coming forward on improper behavior with one on the record as having been pressed to a wall and finger F’d by Biden.

Finally, there’s a difference between sanders writing about an idea as a young man with no literal other parties involved and having a women penetrated against her will.

Are you that cretinous to argue equivalency? Are there levels of rapiness in the liberal world. Some deserving attention, others not do much.

I’m going with ‘yes’. It’s the most glaring feature of liberals.


This is why you don't get invited to parties, you know.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

I do not know ANYBODY who thinks Bernie is a cult of personality.



Yes you do.

<--- This [censored] guy.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I do not know ANYBODY who thinks Bernie is a cult of personality.

Yes you do...
Did you read the previous two posts? Apparently many feel that way.

Originally Posted By: jgw
Pretty much a personality cult.


Originally Posted By: perotista
that's how I see it also. Personality cult. They worship the man, my man or no one.



I'd say it's a personality cult for some, not all. Quite a few Sanders supporters in 2016 and it looks like again in 2020 support the man, not the party. Or perhaps like Sanders, they're independents who want a self identified independent to win the Democratic nomination. If he doesn't, that's it. No more support or voting for whomever the Democrats nominate.

I think the polls support that. Whereas Biden is the overwhelming choice among self identified Democrats, Sanders is the choice of independents who are voting in the Democratic Primaries. Question 62 -62. Democratic Nominee Preference - Between Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders, who do you prefer to be the Democratic nominee? Democratic Party members prefer Biden 63-35 over Sanders, but independents voting in the Democratic primaries prefer Sanders over Biden 49-44

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/bfiid7tfh3/econTabReport.pdf

In other words, I'd say many Sanders supporters are loyal to him and his ideas, but not to the Democratic Party, although many are loyal Democrats. Loyal Democrats along with loyal Democrats who support Sanders will vote for their party's nominee regardless of who he is.

But those only loyal only to Sanders will not. As seen in 2016, many of those stayed home and didn't vote, those who voted, 75% voted for Hillary, 12% for Trump and a whopping 13% for a third party candidate if newsweek is to be believed. Compare that to the self identified Democrats which went to Hillary 89-8 over Trump with but 3% voting third party.

I understand that as I've been in that same boat before. To where if I didn't like either major party candidate, I voted third party. Five times since my first presidential vote in 1968, I have voted against both major party candidates.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 08:17 PM

If people are too ornery to vote against Trump, then we all deserve everything that happens to us.

After November, nobody has a right to bitch, because you bought it.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 09:47 PM

Trump was given to us by the decisions, actions and choices by both major parties back in 2016. Both nominated the most disliked major party candidates in our history. Well, going back to FDR and Truman when Pew Research and Gallup first began keeping track of favorable/unfavorable's of the candidates. here's the list.

Highest to lowest favorable/unfavorable ratings of each major party presidential candidate.
Favorable/unfavorable
1956 Eisenhower 84/12%
1964 LBJ 81/13%
1976 Carter 81/16%
1960 JFK 80/14%
1960 Nixon 79/16%
1968 Nixon 79/22%
1976 Ford 79/20%
1972 Nixon 76/21%
1968 Humphrey 72/28%
1984 Reagan 70/30%
1980 Carter 68/32%
1984 Mondale 66/34%
1980 Reagan 64/31%
1992 Bill Clinton 64/33%
2008 Obama 62/35%
2012 Obama 62/37%
1956 Stevenson 61/31%
2004 G.W. Bush 61/39%
2008 McCain 60/35%
1992 G.H.W. Bush 59/40%
2000 G.W. Bush 58/38%
2004 Kerry 57/40%
1996 Bill Clinton 56/42%
1988 G.H.W. Bush 56/39%
2000 Gore 55/45%
2012 Romney 55/43%
1972 McGovern 55/41%
1996 Dole 54/45%
1988 Dukakis 50/45%
1964 Goldwater 43/47%
2016 Hillary Clinton 38/56%
2016 Donald Trump 36/60%
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 03/31/20 11:44 PM

Actually, if you bother to read my post, I was saying those 15% of Sanders supporters who won't vote for Biden contain personality cult members. But there are others in that 15% with other reasons. I'm sure some of them understand the issues well and are dedicated socialists who think four more years of Trump makes the revolution more likely.

Perfect is the enemy of good enough. Biden is "good enough" along with Democratic majorities in Congress, because that leads to reasonable judge confirmations, sane policies, and competent people running government agencies. Sanders may be perfect, but even if he won the Presidency the congress we would get will not support the majority of his ideas. That's just reality. Elect a progressive congress, and then a progressive President could get his ideas made into law. I actually support that, like I support single-payer. But it won't happen by reelecting Trump. It may not be possible if you reelect Trump.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 12:03 AM

I understand and realize there are a lot of folks to the left of the Democratic Party. Just like there are a lot of folks to the right of the Republican Party. That's life.

There are those, perhaps more than one thinks that will not vote for the lesser of two evils. That they want their perfect candidate or none. Some like I, voted third party whether than choose between two evils in 2016. How many stayed home, who knows? 6% of the total electorate voting third party against both major party candidates is the most since Perot ran in 1996. Perot had money, name recognition, media attention, an organization, ways of getting his message out, none of the third party candidates in 2016 had any of that, none of it. So 6% is really amazing. Compare that to 2012, 1.5% vote third party. In 2008 1.2% did and in 2004, 1.0%.

But is choosing the lesser of two the best choice or is sitting it out or voting third party? That is up to each individual to decide in my opinion.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I'm sure some of them understand the issues well and are dedicated socialists who think four more years of Trump makes the revolution more likely.


This is the part where I start laughing uncontrollably.
Not only won't there be a revolution with four more years of Trump, there will be open season on anyone who doesn't bow.

It won't be a massive wave, just sporadic "comeuppance", almost like school shootings. And even if that finally triggers a response, the response itself won't be a revolution.

There's a reason revolutions only happen in a country about once or twice in several hundred years. The reason is - NO ONE WINS one of those things, least of all the revolutionaries.

Someone eventually DOES WIN, but it's not who anyone really expects.
The people who "WON" the American Revolution? Most of them wound up tried in courts, imprisoned, bankrupted, stripped of their posts, and a great many of them were hanged or shot at dawn.
And a very few lived the rest of their lives in penury.

Revolution my rosy red ass, it's a crock of bull-shyte.
There won't be a revolution if Trump wins again, there will be a long seventy year period of fascism or there will be a world war.

Someone SHOW ME A REAL honest to goodness balls to the wall revolutionary, the kind with the charisma and personal power to spark the blastoff to freedom.

It's utter nonsense.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 01:47 AM

Quote:
If people are too ornery to vote against Trump, then we all deserve everything that happens to us.


I'm kinda funny about this voting thing, I vote for people I think will do a good job. Cory Booker would have done a good job, Harris, Warren. Even Bloomberg would have been a capable executive.

I don't vote for people because they are not someone else. Do I want another four years of Trump? Feck no, I hate him worse than God hates sin. But the consequences of a Biden administration may be worse than a second Trump term. The next one might be a real Christo-fascist instead of just a grifter loved by Christo-fascists.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 01:53 AM

Quote:
I'm sure some of them understand the issues well and are dedicated socialists who think four more years of Trump makes the revolution more likely.

Quite right, Slick! Although, as you know, I'm more a fan of evolution rather than revolution.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 02:11 AM

Quote:
There won't be a revolution if Trump wins again, there will be a long seventy year period of fascism or there will be a world war.

I've got $100 bucks I'll bet against that scenario. That's democratic hyperbole and it's cute that you've bought into it, or maybe made it up on your own. But it's bullshite.

Four more years may be more than Trump is going to actually live, if he should live through it he will most likely be replaced by a Democrat in 2024. Just as Biden will most likely be defeated by a Republican in 2024.

I can only hope that by then Democrats will be ready to elect a progressive rather than a regressive candidate.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
But the consequences of a Biden administration may be worse than a second Trump term.


You mean like how Hillz would have been worse than Trump? tinfoilhat ROTFMOL
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 02:20 AM

Lemme show you what happens if we get four more years of Trump...

Hungarian parliament votes to let Viktor Orban rule by decree in wake of coronavirus pandemic

And no, not because of a pandemic, although one might be raging full speed ahead once again for all we know.
But that won't be the reason.

And you can bet that right now William Barr is frantically looking for any way possible to overturn the 22A, the one that restricts presidents to two terms.
And if not for Donnie, for his kids.

Worse than Trump - my ASS.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 05:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
But the consequences of a Biden administration may be worse than a second Trump term.


coffee
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/01/20 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
But the consequences of a Biden administration may be worse than a second Trump term.

Joe Biden is not Donald Trump.

Trump came into office with no understanding of how the government works at all and no apparent desire to learn. That's not Joe Biden.

Presidents ave tended to have some form of executive branch experience or prior work as governors, in which they are forced to manage in a crisis. That is Joe Biden.

One of Trump’s major flaws is his distrust of expertise. That is largely what the federal government is: an army of subject-matter experts overseeing their own areas of responsibility. A president needs to understand how to use that apparatus to detect emerging disasters and respond to them as they’re coming. Instead, Trump dismisses these experts as the "deep state." That is not Joe Biden.

I understand how you feel Greger, because I felt the same way about Hillary Clinton - and a lot of people did not understand my thinking about the difference between Hillary and Trump. I simply sussed it down to they were both lying conniving sociopaths. That is not Joe Biden. Hmm
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/02/20 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick

I understand how you feel Greger, because I felt the same way about Hillary Clinton - and a lot of people did not understand my thinking about the difference between Hillary and Trump. I simply sussed it down to they were both lying conniving sociopaths. That is not Joe Biden. Hmm


I don't. I am not a fan of Hillary, but when I hear "Hillary is worse than Trump!", this is what I see.
Now add in a face mask because:TRUMP-virus

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/05/20 02:46 AM

Justin Rosario- AGAIN (LOL)

Justin Rosario
2 hrs ·
So Joe Rogan, that cool dude the Bernie campaign was soooooo excited to tout as an endorsement, just said he would vote for Trump over Biden.

And here you have the perfect encapsulation of the Bro.
It was -never- about anything having to do with progress or progressives. EVER.

It was -always- about centering white men again. Biden will not do that. Bernie's "revolution" that pushes civil rights, reproductive rights, LGBTQ rights, and immigrant rights to the back of the bus will.

When Bernie is gone, they will look for another figurehead to lead the "revolution" that will just so happen to place white men at the center of everything again.

This is why they do not find the GOP a greater threat. After all, the entire Republican Party is about putting white men in charge of everything. The Democratic Party is about sharing power with people from all walks of life.

The Democratic Party is the enemy because they are moving away from this paradigm and it enrages the white men who think power should be theirs and theirs alone.

This is who Bros are. They are not progressives. They do not care about the progressive agenda. They care about putting Those People back in their place. This is why they are so hostile to women and minorities.

Sooner or later, they'll give up and find their way to the GOP and insist that we "forced" them to leave the party. Guaranteed.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/05/20 04:48 AM

Rogan's a right leaning independent, a libertarian, basically a small R republican. He's probably fine with Trump and likely hated Obama. He'd have crossed over for Bernie. Not for Obama's houseboy. Many Republicans would have crossed party lines for Bernie because Bernie is a man of the people.

And he's NOT a Democrat.

So why do you feel this powerful urge to attack people who like Bernie? It's almost an obsession.

Rogan's endorsement wasn't exactly well accepted when it happened and everybody tried to pretend it never happened but it did and it speaks volumes about how far reaching the r/evolution has become. Rogan aint a lefty by any means but he's a real clear thinker. He aint the sort of feller you want to find yourself in a debate with. He'd shred the likes of us like cobwebs. Calls a great fight though!

Can they get Khabib Nurmegomedov out of Russia for UFC 249....Biggest pay per view in history in an empty stadium! And Joe Rogan aint gonna call it. Such a time to be alive!
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/05/20 05:19 AM

"Hillary is worse than Trump!"

I happen to like Hillary a lot. I liked Bill too. For a Democrat he's really not that bad. He's from Arkansas y'know. Bless his heart.

I wish we had someone of his calibre up to bat right now. Or her calibre. We got Biden instead.

Trump will be immeasurably worse than Biden! That's the whole point. To drive the stake through the heart of the Republican Party. The next four years are gonna be no picnic, might's well let it be them gets all the blame for it. Then in 2024 AOC and her tits will become the first Puerto Rican president.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/05/20 12:55 PM

That's a matter of personal preference, ideology, beliefs and how one looks at things. I liked Bill Clinton too although I voted for Perot twice. I rank Bill either three or four on my list of best presidents in my life time. He's behind IKE and JFK, then depending on the day whether Bill or Reagan is three and four or the other way around.

Hillary, I never could stand. Hence my vote against both Trump and Hillary in 2016 by casting a ballot for Johnson. I'd do the same today even knowing what I know. In fact most of those who did vote third party against both would do the same thing today if given a second chance, some 9 million voters. Such was the dislike for both major party candidates.

Being I'm no ideologue or even much partisan, Biden suits me to a Tee. I started off in 2016 backing Jim Webb, when he didn't campaign because the fix was in for Hillary, I switched to John Kasich and when Trump won the nomination, supported Gary Johnson. Not so much as I liked Johnson as he was a third name on the ballot that wasn't Trump nor Clinton. Any third name would have done. Those two disgusted me to no end.

I did find it amusing that in February of 2016 a poll showed 56% of all Americans wanted the Democrats to nominate someone other than Clinton. Of course the Democrats ignored America as a whole which was their right. All Americans don't decide the Democratic nominee, Democrats do. But all of America does decide the general election. The writing was on the wall that early that Hillary would have trouble winning. She was just plain disliked by a majority of Americans. So too was Trump as you could see in their unfavorable ratings on election day. 58% of all Americans viewed Hillary unfavorably, 60% view Trump unfavorably. The first time in our history that any major party presidential candidate was viewed unfavorably by 50% or more of all Americans. Goldwater back in 1964 held the previous record for the highest unfavorable's at 47%. Both Hillary and Trump smashed his record. Now Barry can rest in peace knowing he wasn't the most disliked of any presidential candidates. Trump and Hillary hold that honor.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/05/20 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger


So why do you feel this powerful urge to attack people who like Bernie? It's almost an obsession.


I feel the need to attack stealth Trumpers who will do anything to attack Democrats who would gladly vote for Bernie but who will do the practical thing to get rid of Trump if the numbers don't show up for Bernie like they hoped.
In the end, Rogan is a Trumper. As he has just now indicated.
In the end, if we can't have Bernie, that is not an excuse to invite Trump to end whatever we still have left of a democratic republic.
In the end, I attack people like Rogan because of self preservation.

In the end, I am confident that any of us here could shred Joe Rogan in a debate about anything.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 04:09 PM



Bernie is dropping out.

Bernie ignited a movement that rapidly pulled the Dems further left than was imaginable just four years ago. His ideas are the future. That’s Bernie's victory. smile

Dems want Trump out of the office, they don't want a revolution as well...at this time. Hmm
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By: pdx rick


Bernie is dropping out.

Bernie ignited a movement that rapidly pulled the Dems further left than was imaginable just four years ago. His ideas are the future. That’s Bernie's victory. smile

Dems want Trump out of the office, they don't want a revolution as well...at this time. Hmm


It's a tragedy that the youth vote let him down.
It's a tragedy that Bernie did not get the chance he deserved.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 04:47 PM

This surprises me, I didn't think Sanders would drop out. That he would carry his campaign all the way to the convention as a platform for his ideas. Did Sanders move the Democratic Party to the left, I think he did some. I would say four years ago progressives made up somewhere between 20-25% of the Democratic Party faithful. That over the last four years they have increased to around 35%. The more moderate faction, the more Democratic Party traditionalist still have a majority. That could be changing, it probably is.

But the big question isn't so much about the Democratic Party faithful as it is with what we call swing voters, independents, those who aren't affiliated with either party. Those who are less partisan to being non-partisan. Has Sanders changed some of these folks thinking? Most independents which according to Gallup on 22 Mar make up 36% of the electorate. A lot of these so called swing voters became independents because their philosophy, ideology falls somewhere in-between the two major parties as the GOP has moved more to the right and the Democrats more to the left. Call it electability is probably the major reason why Biden has now won the Democratic nomination.

I wish Sanders well. One last thing, Sanders is a self described Democratic Socialist which doesn't play well among independents. In fact only 45% of all independents said they would think about voting for a socialist. The rest wouldn't regardless of the candidates.

Socialism and Atheism Still U.S. Political Liabilities


Now if someone else had professed Sanders ideas, someone who hadn't described themselves as a Democratic Socialist, his ideas probably would fly. A Biden, Klobuchar, Bloomberg, Steyer, Buttigieg, others of the more moderate views wouldn't have been stigmatized as being a socialist, a losing proposition come the general.

Who the messenger is sometimes make all the difference.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 04:54 PM

Apparently Bernie will remain on ballots in the remaining states that have primary elections, which means he is demanding concessions from the Biden camp.
And that is the right thing to do. Biden should not assume that this is a cakewalk or a coronation.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: perotista
This surprises me, I didn't think Sanders would drop out. That he would carry his campaign all the way to the convention as a platform for his ideas. Did Sanders move the Democratic Party to the left, I think he did some.


Thing is, Sanders did not wish to see a repeat of Chicago 1968, with the resulting fallout and the resulting path to Nixon, which in this case would be a path to reelection of Trump instead.

Yes, I agree with you about BRANDING.
I am convinced that Bernie saw his branding in a rather antiquated and romanticized manner. Think of the turbulent 60's and 70's where the term socialism was considered as a kind of "radical chic".
Maybe he was convinced that he could grow that chic into a wildfire and sweep America off its feet and trigger a kind of fashionable cache where it was suddenly "cool" to say you were a socialist.
That is precisely the kind of message that appeals, at least on the surface, to passionate youth.
Unfortunately it did not carry over into action at the polls.

America seems to insist on getting its socialism in a bait and switch style, where one does not even admit to it being what it is for fear of being accused of going to the dark side.

It's almost vaguely "sexual", if one goes back to the days when sex was considered "dirty" and sinful. One did not openly admit to having a sex life outside of marriage.
In a word: puritanical.

The problem with that is, we're now taking our socialism from a bunch of people who can't wait to leverage the authoritarian side of it, because quite naturally, they ARE authoritarians.
And in a truly perverse way, the run on toilet paper is a harbinger of things to come if we allow Trump to win.

We will all be reduced to begging him for toilet paper the way Puerto Ricans were reduced to begging for paper towels.
Except we won't be begging for toilet paper. We may be begging for our very lives.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 05:25 PM

Jeffery, I find nothing to disagree with you on. Most Americans like small steps forward, not gigantic leaps. Hence Obama's loss of the House in 2010, Bill Clinton's loss of congress in 1994. They don't want to be taken out of their comfort zone. Going to the edge is fine, but not over. Like it or not, the Trump campaign playing tape after tape of Sanders calling himself a self-described Democratic Socialist would have meant a good sized defeat. Yes, the fear of socialism does go back to the beginning of the cold war. With the USSR which many Americans equated socialism with communism. After all it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.

Remember the saying, only Nixon could have gone to China? No Democrat could have done that and normalized relation with then Red China. They would have been hung. Nixon had the credentials to go to China where no one else could. Probably even no other Republican could have done that let alone a Democrat. Sanders was the wrong messenger, although I'm sure his ideas will slowly catch on and become law at some point in the near future. Perhaps whoever Biden chooses as his VP might be the right messenger in 2024.

Time will tell.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: perotista
Jeffery, I find nothing to disagree with you on. Most Americans like small steps forward, not gigantic leaps. Hence Obama's loss of the House in 2010, Bill Clinton's loss of congress in 1994. They don't want to be taken out of their comfort zone. Going to the edge is fine, but not over. Like it or not, the Trump campaign playing tape after tape of Sanders calling himself a self-described Democratic Socialist would have meant a good sized defeat. Yes, the fear of socialism does go back to the beginning of the cold war. With the USSR which many Americans equated socialism with communism. After all it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.

Remember the saying, only Nixon could have gone to China? No Democrat could have done that and normalized relation with then Red China. They would have been hung. Nixon had the credentials to go to China where no one else could. Probably even no other Republican could have done that let alone a Democrat. Sanders was the wrong messenger, although I'm sure his ideas will slowly catch on and become law at some point in the near future. Perhaps whoever Biden chooses as his VP might be the right messenger in 2024.

Time will tell.


Sorry, but there is so much wrong here I am not sure where to start.

Americans took a gigantic leap in 1932, a gigantic leap away from the precipice of institutionalized Republican corruption and self-dealing.
They took another giant leap again in 1936, and again in 1940 and again in 1944, and again in 1948.

Even in 1952, when they again decided to give Republicans a chance, they elected a moderate liberal of the Republican Party, someone who made them feel assured he would not rip out the organs of the social contract but would instead help preserve them.

The Soviets could have called themselves Brethren of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all that's worth. The fact is, they were not socialists, they were communists, and they said so openly.
They viewed socialism the way any authoritarian views it, as both a stepping stone to communism and as a means to implementing more authoritarianism by controlling who got what and how, instead of functioning as worthy public servants.

Thus the LABEL "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" was worth about as much as the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" or the "National Socialist Worker's Party" (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei)

In fact, all of that actually supports the argument about the problem with relying too much on labels to begin with.

It's a part of campaigning but when one gets right down to operating the levers of state power, both at home and in the larger world, it behooves one to drop the attention to labels and to observe the actions by which one is known instead. Thus even the most dour conservatives should recognize that the Russians were not socialists at all.

For the last forty years, Republicans have relied on tactics and methodologies that support dumbing Americans down so that they have no other frame of reference aside from that which Republicans feed them via well funded propaganda apparatus designed to foster distrust and hatred of essential domestic democratic institutions.
And no, I do not mean "democratic" as in The Democratic Party, I mean the essentials of republican democracy in a constitutional framework.

This is accurately admitted and expressed by both Trump and by Steve Bannon, when they have waxed poetic about "deconstruction of the administrative state".

That's too many syllables for Donnie, so he prefers "draining the swamp". Same thing.

And the only people who ever said "Only Nixon could have gone to China" were Nixonians. I don't remember anyone talking about "hanging a Democrat" who might have tried such a thing.

And the people who should have been hung were the ones who cleared the way for taxpayer subsidized outsourcing of all our manufacturing, while simultaneously muting any rewards for keeping manufacturing here at home.
Again, the above were policies endorsed by every Republican organ there was, from the US Chamber of Commerce on down...and UP to the TOP of the chain of command whenever a Republican has held the White House. Bush even claimed that outsourcing was good for the American economy.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 06:28 PM

Yes, Americans took a gigantic leap of faith in 1932 after 3 years of failure of the Hoover administration. Anybody but Hoover would have won in 1932. Americans wanted change and help, hope. But not in 1936, 1940 or 1944. Americans stayed with a known quantity. They stayed with the president that gave them hope and then steady guidance through WWII. 1948 was again staying with the party that lead us out of the depression and victory in WWII. People were comfortable with FDR and in 1948 with Harry Truman. They weren't comfortable with Truman in 1952. IKE won in 1952 not as a radical, but as a popular general who led the armed forces to victory, as one who promised to go to Korea to end that unpopular war. Everyone liked IKE, short and simple. No one knew what IKE's politics was or were to be. Truman's approval rating was down to 27%. IKE led the GOP to a clean sweep in congress also. The last time the Republicans would control the House for 40 years until 1994.

IKE provided no gigantic lead forward, small steps and he accomplished his agenda by working closely with LBJ, then the senate majority leader. In fact IKE had LBJ over to the white three times a week to work on how to get his, IKE's agenda through congress. JFK work closely with Everit Dirksen, then the GOP minority leader in the senate. Reagan and Tip O'Neal also worked good, closely together for the entire Reagan's eight years. Bill Clinton's tax increase via a party line vote, his failed healthcare initiative, his gun control ban lead directly to his loss of congress in 1994. Way too much for the normal American. But exactly what most Democrats wanted. But not the majority of Americans, he over stepped, over reached. He learned and adjusted, he made his last six years productive. Unlike Obama who didn't adjust to the new realities. Obama's last six years were wasted years of what might have been.

to understand history one first must place the events in the context of the times, not looking at them trough 21st century eyes.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 09:45 PM


Let's take a look and see how this plays out:
Donald Trump on Twitter

Quote:
Bernie Sanders is OUT! Thank you to Elizabeth Warren. If not for her, Bernie would have won almost every state on Super Tuesday! This ended just like the Democrats & the DNC wanted, same as the Crooked Hillary fiasco. The Bernie people should come to the Republican Party, TRADE!


Follow #DemExit2020 #WriteinBernie trends?
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 11:20 PM

When it comes to politics, Trump is a dunce. Warren had nothing to do with Sanders huge losses on Super Tuesday. It was the people deciding Biden was more electable and that was the main focus, defeating Trump.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: perotista
When it comes to politics, Trump is a dunce. Warren had nothing to do with Sanders huge losses on Super Tuesday. It was the people deciding Biden was more electable and that was the main focus, defeating Trump.


Whatever else Trump is, the man is NOT a dunce when it comes to politics.

And Liz Warren drew votes away from Sanders voters specifically because of something you just finished arguing: BRANDING.

Warren brands herself as a Democrat.
Sanders does not.

Sanders insisted on tackling two incredibly enormous ideas at once:
Moving the country toward acceptance of a drastic change in the makeup of our social services and its impact on healthcare AND getting Americans to accept the label "Democratic Socialist" as something one should not fear.

And in the end, right wing messaging proved too much for the latter, because right wing messaging on that score is a seventy year ad blitz, a seventy year juggernaut of fearmongering.

Trump's 2018 midterm campaign was, in the words of Vanity Fair:

PURE RACIAL FEAR

Had Liz Warren not entered the race, we would be looking at an entirely different turnout.

Had Bernie not entered the race, we would be looking at an entirely different turnout.

Had Joe Biden not entered the race, we would be looking at an entirely different turnout.

But of these three, only Liz Warren was a progressive wearing a Democrat label.

And as you yourself have even argued, AND as I HAVE ALSO argued, branding and marketing is crucial.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/08/20 11:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

And in a truly perverse way, the run on toilet paper is a harbinger of things to come if we allow Trump to win.....
Except we won't be begging for toilet paper. We may be begging for our very lives.


Dude.


DUDE.


Close the computer, man. Go outside. Spend a couple of weeks doing yardwork and reading books. Recenter. Breathe.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 12:46 AM

I been tryin' to tell him that! He's off the deep end with the crazy Trump theories.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 01:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
I been tryin' to tell him that! He's off the deep end with the crazy Trump theories.



You just finished saying that you want to see Trump reelected.
Seriously, who is off the deep end again?
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 01:55 AM

I want to see Trump utterly destroyed. Re-election will offer the best chance for that, but only if we flip the senate to insure a better outcome in his second impeachment. At some point in the recovery from this virus/market crash Republicans are going to turn against Trump. Fox News will turn against Trump. Voters will turn against Trump.

With luck we might be able to push him to suicide. I'd rather see him have a stroke and be left a bitter and hateful, drooling, one sided shell of the man he once thought himself to be. But I'll take whatever I can get.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
I want to see Trump utterly destroyed. Re-election will offer the best chance for that, but only if we flip the senate to insure a better outcome in his second impeachment. At some point in the recovery from this virus/market crash Republicans are going to turn against Trump. Fox News will turn against Trump. Voters will turn against Trump.

With luck we might be able to push him to suicide. I'd rather see him have a stroke and be left a bitter and hateful, drooling, one sided shell of the man he once thought himself to be. But I'll take whatever I can get.


And you don't think beating him in the November election will drive him to a stroke? Disagree.
And you don't think state criminal prosecution will carry on?
Disagree.
And you don't think Republican hatred for a failed reelection bid will inspire payback, by bitter Senate and House members who wake up the next day to find they backed the wrong horse after all?
Disagree.

And I guarantee that, if he is reelected, it will be the last election in this country for a while, a long while.

You think our institutions are safe.
My own grandfather thought he was safe.
He was Louis Rothschild's banker!
He kept saying "They wouldn't touch me, I am the banker to the Rothschilds in Germany, I am safe."

It cost him his entire fortune, twenty five million Marks in GOLD, the equivalent of 430 million dollars today.

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 02:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
I want to see Trump utterly destroyed. Re-election will offer the best chance for that


You're leaving out the even larger problem that comes with a Trump reelection...Trumpers. Not only can't we afford another four years of Trump, we can't afford another four years of Trumpers in power either.

"This is mass madness, you maniacs."



It deserves a BIG:

"Have you lost yo damn mind?"
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 06:32 AM

I want to see Trump die in prison. Then when they do the autopsy, they say: "No wonder! He had X." Where X is Neurological Syphilis, or a brain tumor the size of an apple. I want Trumpers to be so ashamed they ever voted for that evil moron, so they just refrain from voting for the rest of their lives.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 01:24 PM


Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I want to see Trump die in prison. Then when they do the autopsy, they say: "No wonder! He had X." Where X is Neurological Syphilis, or a brain tumor the size of an apple. I want Trumpers to be so ashamed they ever voted for that evil moron, so they just refrain from voting for the rest of their lives.


You have to take the vote for Trump back in 2016 in the context of 2016 and consider who he was running against. How the people viewed the two major party candidates. It wasn't that people liked Trump that much, outside of who you call Trumpers, it had more to do with their dislike of Hillary Clinton. One must remember that in February of 2016 polls were showing that 56% of all Americans wanted the Democrats to nominate someone other than Hillary Clinton. That should have been a warning.

To keep this short, numbers probably bore a lot of you, independents, the swing voters, those who aren't affiliated with either major party, the less to non-partisan folks went for Trump and put Trump into the White House. On election day, these swing voters, the non-affiliated, 70% disliked Hillary, 57% disliked Trump. Questions 10 and 11.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/l37rosbwjp/econTabReport_lv.pdf

The record high for disliking a major party candidate prior to 2016 was 47% held by Barry Goldwater back in 1964. I'm of the opinion that any other Republican besides Trump would have beaten Clinton by 10 points or more and any other Democrat, other than Hillary would have won by 10 points or more. 2016 just pitted the two most disliked and unwanted candidates in our history. This is why Trump is president. As I always say, we have who we have as president as a direct result of the decisions, actions, choices of both major parties back in 2016. Both are to blame. It was their choice who they ran, both choose who they wanted, live with the results.

One other thing, 54% of all independents, swing voters, the non-affiliated disliked and didn't want neither Trump nor Clinton to become the next president. In the end 12% of all independents voted third party against both major party candidates. That a quarter of all independent that disliked and didn't want neither candidate who refused to choose between the major party candidates. They chose a third name on the ballot, it didn't matter who that name was as long as that name wasn't Trump nor Clinton.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

Here's a list of all major party presidential candidates favorable/unfavorable ratings going back to Eisenhower when Gallup and Pew Research began keeping track of these things. Look and see who is at the bottom.

Highest to lowest favorable/unfavorable ratings of each major party presidential candidate.
Favorable/unfavorable
1956 Eisenhower 84/12%
1964 LBJ 81/13%
1976 Carter 81/16%
1960 JFK 80/14%
1960 Nixon 79/16%
1968 Nixon 79/22%
1976 Ford 79/20%
1972 Nixon 76/21%
1968 Humphrey 72/28%
1984 Reagan 70/30%
1980 Carter 68/32%
1984 Mondale 66/34%
1980 Reagan 64/31%
1992 Bill Clinton 64/33%
2008 Obama 62/35%
2012 Obama 62/37%
1956 Stevenson 61/31%
2004 G.W. Bush 61/39%
2008 McCain 60/35%
1992 G.H.W. Bush 59/40%
2000 G.W. Bush 58/38%
2004 Kerry 57/40%
1996 Bill Clinton 56/42%
1988 G.H.W. Bush 56/39%
2000 Gore 55/45%
2012 Romney 55/43%
1972 McGovern 55/41%
1996 Dole 54/45%
1988 Dukakis 50/45%
1964 Goldwater 43/47%
2016 Hillary Clinton 38/56%
2016 Donald Trump 36/60%
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

You think our institutions are safe.
My own grandfather thought he was safe.
He was Louis Rothschild's banker!
He kept saying "They wouldn't touch me, I am the banker to the Rothschilds in Germany, I am safe."

It cost him his entire fortune, twenty five million Marks in GOLD, the equivalent of 430 million dollars today.




Yeah....I"m going to file this right next to my Wife's grandfather fervently warning me about how Obama wanted to nationalize healthcare, just like Hitler, and that's how we knew he'd be coming for our guns and that's why we should be afraid that Obama would try to cancel the 2016 Election and remain President For Life.

:roll:
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 11:09 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

You think our institutions are safe.
My own grandfather thought he was safe.
He was Louis Rothschild's banker!
He kept saying "They wouldn't touch me, I am the banker to the Rothschilds in Germany, I am safe."

It cost him his entire fortune, twenty five million Marks in GOLD, the equivalent of 430 million dollars today.




Yeah....I"m going to file this right next to my Wife's grandfather fervently warning me about how Obama wanted to nationalize healthcare, just like Hitler, and that's how we knew he'd be coming for our guns and that's why we should be afraid that Obama would try to cancel the 2016 Election and remain President For Life.

:roll:


Did your wife's grandfather have a number tattoed on his arm?
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 11:36 PM

Quote:
Did your wife's grandfather have a number tattoed on his arm?


Does your wife's grandfather's tattoo make your hyperbolic theories more likely to come true?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 11:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Did your wife's grandfather have a number tattoed on his arm?


Does your wife's grandfather's tattoo make your hyperbolic theories more likely to come true?


You have the family trees mixed up again.
CPWILL is the one with the wife's grandfather.
I just had a grandfather.

You just have a clever tune you whistle called "It Can't Happen Here", which when listened to through the ear of history, sounds like "Famous Last Words".

Quote:
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"


Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

I bet you still think Trump will step down gracefully if he is defeated in November.
Oh wait, that's right, I forgot...you want to see him reelected.
I'll never understand how granting someone unlimited absolute power, which is what he seeks, winds up being a net positive and reassures you of continued security.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/09/20 11:57 PM

Quote:
2016 Donald Trump 36/60%


Trump's numbers are up a bit since then!
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 12:21 AM

Quote:
I bet you still think Trump will step down gracefully if he is defeated in November.


You bet me $100 he won't?
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 12:36 AM

'Return to Normalcy' Not Going to Be Enough to Win Our Support, Young Progressives Tell Joe Biden
Quote:
"[W]e grew up with endless war, skyrocketing inequality, crushing student loan debt, mass deportations, police murders of black Americans and mass incarceration, schools which have become killing fields, and knowing that the political leaders of today are choking the planet we will live on long after they are gone. We've spent our whole lives witnessing our political leaders prioritize the voices of wealthy lobbyists and big corporations over our needs. From this hardship, we've powered a resurgence of social movements demanding fundamental change. Why would we want a return to normalcy? We need a vision for the future, not a return to the past." —Coalition of youth-led progressive organizations


Common Dreams

I just visited with a Millenial friend down in Tampa, she was torn because voting for Biden seems like going against everything she believes. I assured her that it was okay not to vote for Biden but that she should still get out and support the downballot candidates. She just graduated with a poli-sci degree and plans a career in government. She takes her vote very seriously. Like me, she thinks Biden unworthy of it.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 12:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
2016 Donald Trump 36/60%


Trump's numbers are up a bit since then!



Yes, they are. Question 111. Trump Likability
Regardless of whether you agree with him, do you like or dislike Donald Trump as a person?

Overall 32% like him, 47% dislike him, 15% neither like nor dislike Trump. But the important number is the like a lot at 16% and dislike a lot at 39%. The somewhat's are iffy. they change all the time. Now history shows folks usually don't vote for someone they dislike. So Trump is way behind the curve here. At least as of today.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/ogvntw3mu9/econTabReport.pdf

Trump's favorable's 44% vs unfavorable's 51% is an improvement. But he isn't running against Hillary Clinton this time. Question 105A. Biden is at 44% favorable, the same as Trump's, 47% unfavorable, question 85A. Biden is in a lot better position than Hillary even with Trump's improvement. But the most important numbers here are the very unfavorable's. 30% of all Americans view Biden very unfavorable, he isn't going to get any of their votes vs. 42% who view Trump very unfavorable, they won't vote for Trump. Advantage, Biden.

Again the somewhat favorable and somewhat unfavorable are flaky, very changeable whereas the very's change little if at all. All and all, I'd say Biden is in a good position at the moment.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 01:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
'Return to Normalcy' Not Going to Be Enough to Win Our Support, Young Progressives Tell Joe Biden
Quote:
"[W]e grew up with endless war, skyrocketing inequality, crushing student loan debt, mass deportations, police murders of black Americans and mass incarceration, schools which have become killing fields, and knowing that the political leaders of today are choking the planet we will live on long after they are gone. We've spent our whole lives witnessing our political leaders prioritize the voices of wealthy lobbyists and big corporations over our needs. From this hardship, we've powered a resurgence of social movements demanding fundamental change. Why would we want a return to normalcy? We need a vision for the future, not a return to the past." —Coalition of youth-led progressive organizations


Common Dreams

I just visited with a Millenial friend down in Tampa, she was torn because voting for Biden seems like going against everything she believes. I assured her that it was okay not to vote for Biden but that she should still get out and support the downballot candidates. She just graduated with a poli-sci degree and plans a career in government. She takes her vote very seriously. Like me, she thinks Biden unworthy of it.


Worthy and unworthy of your vote. I've always said the candidate or candidates must earn my vote. Close enough. I'm one of those who voted third party in 2016, against both Trump and Clinton. Hence I get hassled a lot from Trump supporters that my third party vote was for Clinton and from Clinton supporters my vote was actually a vote for Trump. My reply was both are wrong, my vote was against both as neither major party candidate's vote total went up by one.

Each and everyone of us has our reasons why we vote the way we do. They're valid reasons for us, although they may seem asinine to the very loyal political party folks. For some reason the political party faithful, the very partisan folks think each of us should vote like we're mindless robots. Just because they are, doesn't mean all of have to be.

I think you're way to the left of me political ideological wise. Biden is fine with me and will get my vote. I wouldn't have voted for Sanders if he had become the Democratic nominee. His politics are too far left. I'd vote third party once again just like I did in 2016.

If I were Biden, I'd concentrate on winning the independent vote. They make up approximately 40% of the electorate. A group much larger than Sanders supporters. To do that in my opinion means a more center to center left campaign. A campaign slogan of "A return to sanity and normalcy." I think would be great and enough to win independents if Biden campaigns as such. Bottom line, the Democratic Party is still the larger of the two major parties, if Biden wins the independent vote, he wins the election.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 01:43 AM

He sacrificed the Puerto Ricans, he's sacrificed children, he's sacrificed Kurds and now he's getting ready to kill you, but you think it's no big deal if he gets another four years.

I just don't get it and never will.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 02:27 AM

And I can't get over your freak out fearmongering, your startin to sound like a Biden cultmember.

I have legitimate fears about the fate of our nation if Biden is elected president. Talking to you about it is like talking to a Trump supporter. You start screeching and making up all manor of third reich conspiracy theories rather than to address a legitimate issue.

Everyone feels that everything will just snap back to normal the minute Biden is elected. I disagree.
Posted by: perotista

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 03:23 AM

Interesting stat, according to RCP averages Biden leads Trump 49-43. But what catches my eye is that in 2016 6% of the total electorate voted third party. The average third party vote is at 4% today with 4% undecided or not sure.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html

what this means, at least to me is we're not getting the anti both candidates vote this year as we did in 2016. In 2016 polling of the Clinton/Trump race didn't start until June. But in June 2016, 15% were saying they would vote third party instead of choosing between Trump and hillary, which shrunk down to 6% on election day. Still a good sign for a Biden win.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 02:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
And I can't get over your freak out fearmongering, your startin to sound like a Biden cultmember.

I have legitimate fears about the fate of our nation if Biden is elected president. Talking to you about it is like talking to a Trump supporter. You start screeching and making up all manor of third reich conspiracy theories rather than to address a legitimate issue.

Everyone feels that everything will just snap back to normal the minute Biden is elected. I disagree.


That's because you're convinced that "everyone feels that everything will just snap back to normal the minute Biden is elected."

That's on YOU, Greger. I don't think "everything will just snap back to normal the minute Biden is elected."
But I DO think the hemorrhaging will stop and I do think Trump's absence will reap a sigh of relief, not just from Democrats, but from a lot of Republicans and independents, too.

There IS NO NORMAL anymore, so I don't understand why anyone thinks of "normal". But the absence of Trump is like the absence of an infecting organism. The infection may remain for a while but with the removal of the organism, the body gets a chance to muster a defense.

But there is no "normal" anymore.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
And I can't get over your freak out fearmongering, your startin to sound like a Biden cultmember.


Wait, what?
Biden doesn't have any cult members, remember?
You're even on record as saying that no one really LOVES Joe Biden.
It's the Joe Rogans and Jimmy Dores who are doing the bulk of the freaking out, when they're not being crypto "4 More Years of Trump" pimps...to start "the revolution", of course.

Of course when anyone asks "How do you see this revolution actually playing out?" everyone runs for the exits.

Tell you what, Greger...if someone, anyone...comes up with a detailed plan that lays out the scope, purpose and proposed trajectory of this yearned for "revolution", I am open to hearing it.

The Poles had it laid out, and it was elegant in its simplicity:
They just decided that everyone in the country just needed to go on strike. It took a year and a half, and Jaruzelski became increasingly desperate and agitated, and he even exacted a toll on the Polish people when they refused to end their nationwide strikes, but in the end, it was Jaruzelski who fell, and Lech Walesa was elected President.

Thus the plan does not have to be complicated, not at all!
We COULD JUST refuse to honor Trump's demands that we all go back to shopping and working. Not saying that IS the plan but at least I AM now on record as suggesting one possibility.
If it's the WRONG possibility, if it's a terrible idea, then let's hear some other ones.

But putting Trump back in the White House is without a doubt the absolute stupidest idea I have ever heard.
Putting him back in the White House, even with Dem majorities in both chambers of Congress is STILL the SECOND-most absolute stupidest idea I have ever heard.

Because after 3.5 years of this, most of the public is not in any mood to go through even more of it even if it plays out as a second impeachment and trial.

Trump has DESTROYED the major institutions which could possibly support such an effort, to the point where they are so weak that they, along with the rest of the government, REALLY CAN BE DROWNED in the bathtub.

Drowned in the bathtub by President Oswald Cobblepot and his band of appointed and acting gangster agency heads.

Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 06:25 PM

I think this is now about I will vote for _____ because .........

I will vote for Biden because he is NOT Trump. Even should Biden win I am not convinced that Trump will be going anyplace without a battle (he claims support by military, bikers, etc). If nothing else Trump firmly believes that he has a destiny - never much cared for them with a destiny. I also have hope. It appears that Trump's daily appearances are costing him and I love it. CNN just kinda ignores him and MSNBC does their duty and shows Trump long enough so that they can cut in and point out the lies (CNN reports later). As far as I am concerned it took them too long but, at least, they are starting to cut back on all the free exposure.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger
And I can't get over your freak out fearmongering, your startin to sound like a Biden cultmember.


Wait, what?


Yeah. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the American populace probably sit somewhere between me and Gregor, and BOTH of us are telling you you are sounding.... sorta nuts, man.

Truly - please, take a break, man. Get away from whatever groupthing-reinforcing media or crowd is pushing you into this. I went through something similar (though perhaps not quite as extreme) in 2016, watching Trump take the GOP nomination. It wasn't good for me, and this isn't good for you frown.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/10/20 11:12 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL


Yeah. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the American populace probably sit somewhere between me and Gregor


Somewhere between you and Greger? Think about that for a moment, CP.
Think about what a wide chasm that is.

So, you're saying that I am to the Left of YOU, and to the Right of Greger?
Once again, think very carefully about Greger's positions.
He loves Bernie (like I do) but he won't vote for Biden, because Biden's worthless, and it would be better to have four more years of Trump.

Where do you see me on that spectrum? I am willing to hold my nose and vote for Biden.
I don't think you plotted out your visual very well, sir.

And I just finished asking Greger, and anyone else who might be interested, what a so called "revolution" would look like and how it would play out, and so far no takers.

And I'm the one freaking out?
I think those are reasonable statements and reasonable questions.

Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:00 AM

It turns out that the left is just as dumb as the right.

I am in fact renouncing socialism. Not because I no longer believe in the principles of socialism, but rather because socialists are at the moment a pack of losers. It's embarrassing.

So the revolution can carry on without me.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:08 AM

Also, Jeffrey is correct. THERE IS NO NORMAL. It no longer exists. The country is a quadruple traumatic amputee with 1 stained tourniquet to cover all 4 stumps, and the very best that can be hoped for is for the nation to bleed out with a little dignity.

And there people are, sniveling about how BUNRIE CAN STILL WIN and [censored] YOU, IMA VOTE FOR TRUMP IN A FIT OF ACCELERATIONIST CRAP.

But okay.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
It turns out that the left is just as dumb as the right.

I am in fact renouncing socialism. Not because I no longer believe in the principles of socialism, but rather because socialists are at the moment a pack of losers. It's embarrassing.

So the revolution can carry on without me.


I don't have to renounce it because I've never signed on for anything more than just good old social democracy, New Deal style.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
It turns out that the left is just as dumb as the right.

I am in fact renouncing socialism. Not because I no longer believe in the principles of socialism, but rather because socialists are at the moment a pack of losers. It's embarrassing.

So the revolution can carry on without me.


I don't have to renounce it because I've never signed on for anything more than just good old social democracy, New Deal style.


I'm just gonna concentrate on my work, given that I am "essential" and can continue to refine the technology of robotic doom sexiness. I mean, I was fine with having opposition, but then it turns out that a third of the people "on my side" are slack-jawed morons that will allow Trump to finish shitting on the republic because they are butthurt hipsters.

All humans must be consumed. It's really the only answer.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
All humans must be consumed. It's really the only answer.

The only question is "how"?
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:39 AM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
All humans must be consumed. It's really the only answer.

The only question is "how"?


That's a really good question, because unless you use nukes, humans literally [censored] faster than you can get rid of them.

We here at <unnamed corporation> are, however, working on a solution! Human erasure conducted quietly and efficiently, at rates that have to be believed to be seen!

Call today.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl


We here at <unnamed corporation> are, however, working on a solution! Human erasure conducted quietly and efficiently, at rates that have to be believed to be seen!

Call today.



Can't we just remove all the warning labels and let Nature take its course? If it were possible to just segregate all the COVID deniers and let them go free to go about their business, and they all caught COVID and perished, I honestly don't think I could muster a single tear.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl


We here at <unnamed corporation> are, however, working on a solution! Human erasure conducted quietly and efficiently, at rates that have to be believed to be seen!

Call today.



Can't we just remove all the warning labels and let Nature take its course? If it were possible to just segregate all the COVID deniers and let them go free to go about their business, and they all caught COVID and perished, I honestly don't think I could muster a single tear.


There's no opera in having stupid primates try to change the fan belt of a running motor, when you think of it.

And I gotta say, this plague might wind up doing some good. Americans needed to be shown (for the first time in a century) that sometimes the universe doesn't give a s*** how hard you MAGA, and that there are sometimes enemies you can't just bomb.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Can't we just remove all the warning labels and let Nature take its course? If it were possible to just segregate all the COVID deniers and let them go free to go about their business, and they all caught COVID and perished, I honestly don't think I could muster a single tear.

I'm interested in the feedstock potential of all that biomass.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL


Yeah. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the American populace probably sit somewhere between me and Gregor


Somewhere between you and Greger? Think about that for a moment, CP.
Think about what a wide chasm that is.

So, you're saying that I am to the Left of YOU, and to the Right of Greger?


No. I'm saying you've wandered off the standard political spectrum into crazypants territory smile
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 03:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
it turns out that a third of the people "on my side" are slack-jawed morons


That low? Nice.

#Jealous.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 03:48 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL


No. I'm saying you've wandered off the standard political spectrum into crazypants territory smile


By describing a hypothetical spectrum bookended by you and Greger, when in reality both of you have stated you'd be okay with four more years of Trump.
And yet, when one looks at the political values between you two, there is not as much common ground as one might expect from two persons who don't worry about letting Trump win reelection.

I think one of you might have the other's pants "half-off"...is this a Walmart sale or something?
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
it turns out that a third of the people "on my side" are slack-jawed morons


That low? Nice.

#Jealous.

Well, you have APDST dragging down the average, and I feel bad for ya son, I got 99 problems and an inbred hillbilly ain't one.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 04:31 AM

Whomever is elected in November is going to be sacrificed on the altar of the Global Recession. Sh*t aint gonna snap back to normal. This will break the backs of American consumers and small businesses.

Life as we have known it is over.

That's something to get all crazypants about.
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 06:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
I have legitimate fears about the fate of our nation if Biden is elected president. .

Would you feel the same way if Kamala Harris is his Veep? Hmm

Remember ol' Joe got BAMZ!!!! to evolve on gay marriage - not the other way around.


smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 06:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
'Return to Normalcy' Not Going to Be Enough to Win Our Support, Young Progressives Tell Joe Biden

Chaos is the new cocaine. That's why Righwingers are lapping it up. smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
He sacrificed the Puerto Ricans, he's sacrificed children, he's sacrificed Kurds...


Originally Posted By: Greger
And I can't get over your freak out fearmongering, your startin to sound like a Biden cultmember.

Or...someone who just wants severely damaged human being Trump out of office.

smile
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 05:52 PM

Just hope that the Republicans are not in charge of the rebuilding that must be done. There are a couple of reasons for this. The first is that the Dems are simply more experienced in bailing us out of economic disasters. I believe the reason to be that the Dems understand that regulations will be needed and that the Dems tend to think more about the masses rather than the moneyed and powerful. The Republicans, on the other hand, do not believe in any regulations and, pretty much, don't like gov much and we need gov if we are to survive the recovery.

Some will claim that having a leader is enough. We have that, right now, a self proclaimed leader with a really huge talent for idiocy. We are going to need, instead, a leader supported by competence on any number of levels not a leader on his/her own making proclamations based on fairy tales and alternate facts. Basically, Republicans, for the most part, have a genuine problem with even being capable of demonstrating competence which would be a another little problem.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/11/20 07:12 PM

It's an article of faith for them that the federal government can't do anything right. So they have to prove that to fulfill their fantasies. If they are actually saboteurs, why on earth do voters keep putting them in charge?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/12/20 04:10 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
It's an article of faith for them that the federal government can't do anything right. So they have to prove that to fulfill their fantasies. If they are actually saboteurs, why on earth do voters keep putting them in charge?


Saw this in my feed this morning...

“When Bernie said everyone should have healthcare as a right, you called it socialism. Now you are begging for free tests and treatment and healthcare that is not tied to your job.

When Bernie said workers should be guaranteed paid leave, you called it socialism. Now you are begging for paid leave as places close and people are laid off.

When Bernie said every child in America should have high-quality child care and universal school meals, you called it socialism. Now schools are closed and you need child care and food for your kids.

When Bernie wanted to cancel all student loan debt to help millions of struggling Americans, you called it socialism. Now you are begging for student loan relief.

When Bernie wanted national rent control so landlords can’t jack up rent prices as high as they want and kick tenants out unfairly, you called it socialism. Now you are begging for landlords to not to evict tenants during this time.

When Bernie said all people should be making a living wage of at least $15/hr, you called it socialism. Now you are literally relying on those same people at the grocery store, food service, child care, cleaners and other min wage jobs to SURVIVE.

Bernie has been fighting for basic human rights his entire life and it took a global pandemic for you people to realize he’s been right this whole time."
-Anonymous

And the OP even included a very nice portrait to go with it.

Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/12/20 04:29 PM

And in the end, we're likely to be stuck with a good-better-best situation where selecting GOOD is not a rejection of BEST.
Seems a lot of folks are having difficulty with that lately.
So we keep winding up with WORST.
Life has just become more fragile, civilization has just become more fragile, humanity is facing a defining moment.
I hope we make it.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/12/20 06:11 PM

If Donald Trump were not in the picture would there be any "Good" reason to nominate Joe Biden?
.
.
.
Didn't think so.
.
.
.
Trump has served his purpose by making you think Biden is a "Good" choice. Corporatocracy has you by the small hairs and you dance to their tune only.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/12/20 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

Seems a lot of folks are having difficulty with that lately.
So we keep winding up with WORST.


It's elementary pre-game theory.

You have best, good, meh, and and worst. Which of the 4 cases do you eliminate first?

So, just to stipulate the cases, you have Sanders, Warren, Biden, and Trump, and your goal is to move left. The first option would be to eliminate Trump as an option. Then Biden, then Warren.

What has happened here is that the left has selected, in order, Sanders, Trump, everyone else, and then started striking in the same order.

It's dumb. There are two likely answers for why a leftist would select Trump over Biden.

1. "They're the same." They're not the same. Even back in the day Biden from 1983 wasn't in the same BALLPARK as Trump in any respect.
2. The berners are butthurt and want to lash out, no matter who gets hurt.

The silly-ass part of all of this is that the dems keep allowing Sanders to join their party every four years, despite the fact that he campaigns against them. He won't stick after this, and if he doesn't, he should be ejected and barred from both the party and the caucuses. If it's so important for him to be an independent, fine. He can be an independent, with all the clout that comes with it.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/12/20 09:26 PM

There is a third answer which I have been screaming for months.

Shall we review it again?

Joe Biden isn't going to be a very good president.
His vice president won't be anybody special.
After plodding through an economic recovery Democrats will lose in 2024.
Republicans will hold the White House for the next eight years.
Democrats may or may not not regain power in 2032.

Or else...

Donald Trump is a terrible president. But if he gets re-elected he's going to get bogged down in that same economic recovery and will bungle it mightily. The Republican brand will be utterly destroyed and Democrats will win in 2024 and hold the White House until 2032 and beyond.

That right there seems impossible for anyone to digest as long as they've got Trump stuck in their craw.

Let's go Back back back! Back to a normal time! Only Joe can take us back to a better time!

Evahbody sez NO! IT CAN"T HAPPEN HERE! Once Trump is gone erything will be COOL!

An I sez hide and watch, dudes! Hide and watch.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/12/20 09:45 PM

Quote:
The silly-ass part of all of this is that the dems keep allowing Sanders to join their party every four years, despite the fact that he campaigns against them. He won't stick after this, and if he doesn't, he should be ejected and barred from both the party and the caucuses.


And so the Democratic Party should never allow Senator Sanders to vote for any bill or resolution they support. Should refuse to count his vote if he agrees with them. Same I guess for any Independent in Congress. If they won't join the party and march in lockstep then they have no place within our government!
If they decide to run for higher office they must always run as a third party independent so everyone will know they are disloyal to The Party!

We'll get that leftist bullsh*t stamped out forthwith! They should love this country and vote blue no matter who or leave it.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/12/20 11:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
There is a third answer which I have been screaming for months.

Shall we review it again?

Joe Biden isn't going to be a very good president.
His vice president won't be anybody special.
After plodding through an economic recovery Democrats will lose in 2024.
Republicans will hold the White House for the next eight years.
Democrats may or may not not regain power in 2032.

Or else...

Donald Trump is a terrible president. But if he gets re-elected he's going to get bogged down in that same economic recovery and will bungle it mightily. The Republican brand will be utterly destroyed and Democrats will win in 2024 and hold the White House until 2032 and beyond.

That right there seems impossible for anyone to digest as long as they've got Trump stuck in their craw.

Let's go Back back back! Back to a normal time! Only Joe can take us back to a better time!

Evahbody sez NO! IT CAN"T HAPPEN HERE! Once Trump is gone erything will be COOL!

An I sez hide and watch, dudes! Hide and watch.


There is no normal anymore. That's gone for 20 years at the bare minimum.

Now there is survival or non-survival.

Being a wrecker won't change those options.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/12/20 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger

And so the Democratic Party should never allow Senator Sanders to vote for any bill or resolution they support.


I didn't say that.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 01:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
There is a third answer which I have been screaming for months.

Shall we review it again?

Joe Biden isn't going to be a very good president.
His vice president won't be anybody special.
After plodding through an economic recovery Democrats will lose in 2024.
Republicans will hold the White House for the next eight years.
Democrats may or may not not regain power in 2032.

Or else...

Donald Trump is a terrible president. But if he gets re-elected he's going to get bogged down in that same economic recovery and will bungle it mightily. The Republican brand will be utterly destroyed and Democrats will win in 2024 and hold the White House until 2032 and beyond.

That right there seems impossible for anyone to digest as long as they've got Trump stuck in their craw.

Let's go Back back back! Back to a normal time! Only Joe can take us back to a better time!

Evahbody sez NO! IT CAN"T HAPPEN HERE! Once Trump is gone erything will be COOL!

An I sez hide and watch, dudes! Hide and watch.


All the signs and all Trump's actions points to no such thing as an economic recovery. All his signs and actions point to dictatorship and total dissolution of the republic as we know it.

There will not BE any economic recovery to bungle, there will be a carbon copy of Viktor Orban's rule by decree.

And something that resembles a slow moving civil war, which might or might not speed up, but it doesn't matter, because regardless the pace, it will eat up whatever remains.

There won't BE any political parties anymore, there will the cult.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 02:38 AM

Golly that sounds a lot more likely to happen than regular elections.

You're probably right Jeffery and we should all just go ahead and kill ourselves.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Golly that sounds a lot more likely to happen than regular elections.

You're probably right Jeffery and we should all just go ahead and kill ourselves.



You said that, I didn't.
Show me one thing that proves that the elections will be secure, and show me one thing that limits what Trump will do if he wins.
Show me one thing that proves that a Congress, even one with Democratic majorities, will be able to stop him AND ALSO get anything done.
The only way Dems in Congress could get anything done with Trump still in office is if they have supermajorities in both branches, which is impossible this time around.
Thus Mitch will simply do what he used to do, filibuster EVERYTHING.

I assume you watched the impeachment in the Senate.
That's closer to what we can expect if they keep the Senate and Trump wins again.
The fact is, Trump is now above the law, and he will finish shredding the Constitution if he wins, and no one and nothing will stop him.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 03:20 AM

Loading the pistol right now...
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 03:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Loading the pistol right now...


Unfortunately, it's a bit too late for that.

Trump is a 3rd rate Sulla. Octavian will be along soon enough.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 03:39 AM

That's ancient history.

Fear mongering and vote shaming really aren't gonna work y'know. Electing Biden is just setting yourselves up for failure.

I'm just warning you about what I think is most likely to happen. It's not something I want to see happen, I'm just an observer here. Think of me as the guy you say "Hold my beer" to. I can think of a thousand reasons you shouldn't do whatever the f*ck you are about to do.

But you won't listen, so I will hold your beer for you and watch you f*ck up bigly. Then I will finish your beer.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 03:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
That's ancient history.


Except that it's, you know, happening.

Quote:
Fear mongering and vote shaming really aren't gonna work y'know. Electing Biden is just setting yourselves up for failure.


*shrug*

Either you're against Trump or you're not. There are no qualifiers.

Quote:
But you won't listen, so I will hold your beer for you and watch you f*ck up bigly. Then I will finish your beer.


I am the very avatar of the [censored] Up Fairy.

And I peed in the beer.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 04:28 AM

You know I'm right though.

Electing Biden is just kicking the can down the road. I don't hate Joe Biden. I feel sorry for the old guy because he's getting into something he's not gonna be able to handle.

Honestly, I wish Donald Trump nothing but harm. I don't want him to be re-elected. But there's a small chance he will still win. Because Joe Biden is the candidate.

Biden can win the vote of the far left with just a few promises. He'll most likely be the next president.

This is where all my models crash. An ancient and storied deck of Tarot cards burst into flames when I attempted a reading for further details. I see electoral disaster ahead in 2024. I'm okay if I'm wrong about it. But I don't think I am.

I also don't seem to share the fear you have of Donald Trump. He's just a man, he'll be gone soon. Or he'll get re-elected, then he'll be gone in four years.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/13/20 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
You know I'm right though.

Electing Biden is just kicking the can down the road. I don't hate Joe Biden. I feel sorry for the old guy because he's getting into something he's not gonna be able to handle.


Kicking the can down the road is sometimes an acceptable strategy. This is one of those times.

Quote:
Honestly, I wish Donald Trump nothing but harm. I don't want him to be re-elected. But there's a small chance he will still win. Because Joe Biden is the candidate.


I would say the chances of Trump winning are 7-3 FOR him winning, because the left can't agree on pizza toppings, let alone a candidate.

Quote:
Biden can win the vote of the far left with just a few promises. He'll most likely be the next president.


It's going to come down to his VP pick.

Quote:
This is where all my models crash. An ancient and storied deck of Tarot cards burst into flames when I attempted a reading for further details. I see electoral disaster ahead in 2024. I'm okay if I'm wrong about it. But I don't think I am.


I am right now thinking in terms of surviving to 2024.

Quote:
I also don't seem to share the fear you have of Donald Trump. He's just a man, he'll be gone soon. Or he'll get re-elected, then he'll be gone in four years.


This assumes the country will survive as a political entity for THIS term, let alone the next one.

The damage caused in 3 years has been immense. Now watch what the prick does in his SECOND term.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/14/20 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl

The damage caused in 3 years has been immense. Now watch what the prick does in his SECOND term.


Imagine if, during or even AFTER this pandemic, the United States is reeling from the economic damage, and other factors, and suddenly there is an attack on our shores.
Right now, for the sake of the discussion, pick any nation or group, doesn't matter. But the attack is large, like maybe on a major city, with a few thousand killed.

Now we're reeling from a pandemic AND an attack.
Is it time for an Enabling Act yet?

Let's say that the attack comes in the end of December 2020, and we end up with Trump, a Dem House and a GOP Senate again, with Mitch..and Bill Barr as AG.

Howzabout that Enabling Act, think Mitch will pass it?
Think Trump will sign it?
Think it will ever get rescinded?
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/14/20 12:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl

The damage caused in 3 years has been immense. Now watch what the prick does in his SECOND term.


Imagine if, during or even AFTER this pandemic, the United States is reeling from the economic damage, and other factors, and suddenly there is an attack on our shores.
Right now, for the sake of the discussion, pick any nation or group, doesn't matter. But the attack is large, like maybe on a major city, with a few thousand killed.

Now we're reeling from a pandemic AND an attack.
Is it time for an Enabling Act yet?

Let's say that the attack comes in the end of December 2020, and we end up with Trump, a Dem House and a GOP Senate again, with Mitch..and Bill Barr as AG.

Howzabout that Enabling Act, think Mitch will pass it?
Think Trump will sign it?
Think it will ever get rescinded?


McConnell, Barr, Miller, and Trump are the 4 idiots of the apocalypse. It would happen exactly as you say.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/15/20 03:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl

The damage caused in 3 years has been immense. Now watch what the prick does in his SECOND term.


Imagine if, during or even AFTER this pandemic, the United States is reeling from the economic damage, and other factors, and suddenly there is an attack on our shores.
Right now, for the sake of the discussion, pick any nation or group, doesn't matter. But the attack is large, like maybe on a major city, with a few thousand killed.


By Whom?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/15/20 04:12 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl

The damage caused in 3 years has been immense. Now watch what the prick does in his SECOND term.


Imagine if, during or even AFTER this pandemic, the United States is reeling from the economic damage, and other factors, and suddenly there is an attack on our shores.
Right now, for the sake of the discussion, pick any nation or group, doesn't matter. But the attack is large, like maybe on a major city, with a few thousand killed.


By Whom?


Does it really matter?
That is why I specifically took pains to say "nation OR group".
An attack set the German Enabling Act in motion, and historically no one actually knows who did the deed. Hitler said "the commies".
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/20/20 09:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl

The damage caused in 3 years has been immense. Now watch what the prick does in his SECOND term.


Imagine if, during or even AFTER this pandemic, the United States is reeling from the economic damage, and other factors, and suddenly there is an attack on our shores.
Right now, for the sake of the discussion, pick any nation or group, doesn't matter. But the attack is large, like maybe on a major city, with a few thousand killed.


By Whom?


Does it really matter?
That is why I specifically took pains to say "nation OR group".


So, to be clear, you have no idea whatsoever if there is indeed a current enemy out there with the capability and intent to launch such an attack on the United States that would take out a city without our ability to anticipate it.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/20/20 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL

So, to be clear, you have no idea whatsoever if there is indeed a current enemy out there with the capability and intent to launch such an attack on the United States that would take out a city without our ability to anticipate it.


I said, does it really matter who?
By the way, we seem to have a serious problem anticipating danger in this day and age.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/20/20 11:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

So, to be clear, you have no idea whatsoever if there is indeed a current enemy out there with the capability and intent to launch such an attack on the United States that would take out a city without our ability to anticipate it.


I said, does it really matter who?


Yes. Claiming that something is a plausible threat to our liberty requires being able to demonstrate that it is, well, plausible.

If Biden wins and I come in here and explain that, as soon as the Space Aliens arrive, Biden will deal with them to sell all our children into slavery, you would be rather well within the bounds of reason to ask simple enough questions such as "what information do you have suggesting that aliens are inbound" and "what information do you have suggesting that Biden will sell our children to them".

If I were to insist that I didn't have to provide any reason or evidence, but that we needed to take this Biden-child-slavery-threat seriously Because Hitler, you would also be well within the bounds of reason to call me out on that kind of foolishness.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/21/20 02:06 AM

I for one am going to take the Biden child slavery threat seriously, because Hitler!
I don't trust the man.

But, the fact that we don't actually have any enemies who are likely to attack us at our weakest moment says a lot for reducing the military budget.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/21/20 03:46 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

So, to be clear, you have no idea whatsoever if there is indeed a current enemy out there with the capability and intent to launch such an attack on the United States that would take out a city without our ability to anticipate it.


I said, does it really matter who?


Yes. Claiming that something is a plausible threat to our liberty requires being able to demonstrate that it is, well, plausible.


Were the attacks on September 11th plausible? Some thought so, some ignored that. Some thought a pandemic was a possibility, some ignored that.

Some thought the Reichstag Fire was possible, some ignored that, perhaps deliberately.

A hypothetical attack is possible. We game those possibilities, I believe The Pentagon is adept at it, more so than I am.

It is cute that you insist I have a specific nation or group in mind.
I am citing conditions that make the possibility more likely.
We have some of those right now.

Oil just crashed into negative numbers, that means that the gas station masquerading as a country now has a Ruble worth less than the paper it's printed on. That means Putin is quite possibly a caged animal.

Does it mean I am predicting Dr. Strangelove? No, but it is possible that Russia may commit an act by proxy. The possibility just became more likely.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/21/20 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL

So, to be clear, you have no idea whatsoever if there is indeed a current enemy out there with the capability and intent to launch such an attack on the United States that would take out a city without our ability to anticipate it.


By the way, since "take out a city" is a variable, we need to define our terms. Recently two felled skyscrapers "took out a city" so to speak despite the fact that most of the population survived, and so did most of the buildings. Just two really big ones went down.
It was actually enough to take out a country, ours.

We are still maintaining a military presence in several locations because of that, but what we've "won" is open to debate.

Given we are under Trump Law, I think it's safe to say we are even more vulnerable to an attack of some kind than we were in 2001.
As it is, we're under attack right now.
A pandemic, one that just might be bad enough to trigger a war, maybe even a world war.
Team Trump would waste no time figuring out how to leverage something like that.
And that's what I'm getting at.

CUE: It Can't Happen Here"

Or maybe it might not trigger a war.
Maybe, through grand mal greed and incompetence, it might trigger something else, a kind of JACKPOT.

I wonder how Team Trump might choose to leverage something like that.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/23/20 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

So, to be clear, you have no idea whatsoever if there is indeed a current enemy out there with the capability and intent to launch such an attack on the United States that would take out a city without our ability to anticipate it.


By the way, since "take out a city" is a variable, we need to define our terms. Recently two felled skyscrapers "took out a city" so to speak despite the fact that most of the population survived, and so did most of the buildings. Just two really big ones went down.
It was actually enough to take out a country, ours.


It did not take out a country. It took out large portions of a city, and caused us to self-revoke air travel for a few days.

Quote:
We are still maintaining a military presence in several locations because of that, but what we've "won" is open to debate.


Yup. We were attacked and responded to war with war.

Quote:
Given we are under Trump Law, I think it's safe to say we are even more vulnerable to an attack of some kind than we were in 2001.


Well, I can only surmise you are not terribly familiar with either the current status of either ISIS or AQ EXOPS capability, and not terribly familiar with the current defense posture of the United States. One of the reasons we are still in those countries you mention is because it gives us an excellent vantage point to identify and disrupt those attacks well before they occur.

Quote:
As it is, we're under attack right now.
A pandemic, one that just might be bad enough to trigger a war, maybe even a world war.


....with whom? China? China and Russia? The EU? COBRA?

Quote:
Team Trump would waste no time figuring out how to leverage something like that.
And that's what I'm getting at.


Then you should pay better attention to what the Trump administration actually does, and take a more realistic measure of the current status of threats from abroad.

1. The Trump administration would absolutely waste time in such a scenario - if you like, use this pandemic as your test case. The Trump administration wasted precious weeks coming to grips with the fact that there was a threat, before mealy-mouthing their way to a partial fitful solution, and has since then largely left actually handling the crises up to the governors, despite occasional idiotic declarations of Total Authority... that are then backed up by precisely zero actions.

2. There is no current enemy group with both the capability and intent to launch an invasion - temporary or otherwise - or sustained attack of the type you describe. A nation-state such as China, Russia, North Korea, or Iran knows that we will respond to a mass attack with nuclear weaponry, wiping out their people and possibly leading to an exchange that ends the human race (neither of which they want), and terror groups are generally suppressed in their ability to launch large and complex plots of that kind* due to the very overseas U.S. military presence you mention.

*one wild-card would be if Iran decided to support an organized group, using them as a proxy actor. Hopefully a combination of economic and domestic political chaos combined with the recent strike against Soleimani has shifted their calculus against a willingness to accept that kind of risk.


Quote:
CUE: It Can't Happen Here"


No. You simply have no idea how it would, which hasn't stopped you from panicking yourself that it will. This is the equivalent of the 1990's Militia types terrifying themselves that "UN Troops Were Gonna Occupy The United States Because Clinton Wants To Be A Dictator".

Quote:
Or maybe it might not trigger a war.
Maybe, through grand mal greed and incompetence, it might trigger something else, a kind of JACKPOT.

I wonder how Team Trump might choose to leverage something like that.


This is literally discussion of a science fiction scenario. It's like insisting that President Biden will turn us into a fascist military-ruled society in response to the Bug Menace that destroyed Buenos Aires.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/23/20 07:04 PM

Well done, CP! But talking to a frothing at the mouth Trump hater is about the same as dealing with a frothing at the mouth Trump lover.

Nothing you say is going to get through. They live in a paranoid fantasy world.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/24/20 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Well done, CP! But talking to a frothing at the mouth Trump hater is about the same as dealing with a frothing at the mouth Trump lover.

Nothing you say is going to get through. They live in a paranoid fantasy world.


frown I have lost count of the times when, in response to either group, I have had to make the point that not literally everything is actually about Trump, and that things can exist (and be good, bad, or a mixture therein) in and of themselves, independent of whether or not they effect Trump.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/27/20 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Well done, CP! But talking to a frothing at the mouth Trump hater is about the same as dealing with a frothing at the mouth Trump lover.

Nothing you say is going to get through. They live in a paranoid fantasy world.


Just sitting here watching another Sanders voter turn into a Trump apologist.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/27/20 05:28 PM

I've never voted for Sanders and never will. I've never supported Sanders and proudly voted for Hillary Clinton.

I'm thinking you need to revise your estimate. But I still won't vote for Biden.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/27/20 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: Greger
Well done, CP! But talking to a frothing at the mouth Trump hater is about the same as dealing with a frothing at the mouth Trump lover.

Nothing you say is going to get through. They live in a paranoid fantasy world.


Just sitting here watching another Sanders voter turn into a Trump apologist.


Do YOU think that there will be no election because an outside power will invade and occupy an American city, that Trump will use that event to suddenly become an uber-competent highly-capable fascist dictator who then proceeds to wipe out wide portions of the American population, including members of this forum, and that the proof of this is Because Hitler?
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/27/20 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: Greger
Well done, CP! But talking to a frothing at the mouth Trump hater is about the same as dealing with a frothing at the mouth Trump lover.

Nothing you say is going to get through. They live in a paranoid fantasy world.


Just sitting here watching another Sanders voter turn into a Trump apologist.


Do YOU think that there will be no election because an outside power will invade and occupy an American city, that Trump will use that event to suddenly become an uber-competent highly-capable fascist dictator who then proceeds to wipe out wide portions of the American population, including members of this forum, and that the proof of this is Because Hitler?


Nope.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/27/20 07:55 PM

Quote:
Do YOU think that there will be no election because an outside power will invade and occupy an American city, that Trump will use that event to suddenly become an uber-competent highly-capable fascist dictator who then proceeds to wipe out wide portions of the American population, including members of this forum, and that the proof of this is Because Hitler?


All that would only happen if Bernie Sanders were the candidate.

And it is the bludgeon used to force left leaning independents to vote blue no matter who.

Have you seen Biden's Facebook? He's practically shouting leftist slogans.

Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/27/20 08:33 PM

Quote:
I have lost count of the times when, in response to either group, I have had to make the point that not literally everything is actually about Trump, and that things can exist (and be good, bad, or a mixture therein) in and of themselves, independent of whether or not they effect Trump.

In my world almost nothing is about Trump. He was an anomaly, he will be gone soon. Floridians hated him before most of you ever paid him any mind. He represents the worst of the worst of the Snowbirds and I have been taught since early childhood to hate the likes of him. My grandpa liked and respected black men but had no use at all for yankees. A New York yankee is the worst of the lot.

But I'm not going to obsess over it.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 04/28/20 02:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: Greger
Well done, CP! But talking to a frothing at the mouth Trump hater is about the same as dealing with a frothing at the mouth Trump lover.

Nothing you say is going to get through. They live in a paranoid fantasy world.


Just sitting here watching another Sanders voter turn into a Trump apologist.


Do YOU think that there will be no election because an outside power will invade and occupy an American city, that Trump will use that event to suddenly become an uber-competent highly-capable fascist dictator who then proceeds to wipe out wide portions of the American population, including members of this forum, and that the proof of this is Because Hitler?


Nope.


wink you Trump Apologist, you. laugh
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/03/20 02:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger

Fear mongering and vote shaming really aren't gonna work y'know. Electing Biden is just setting yourselves up for failure.


If you are progressive and you feel that since Bernie won't make it, you can't vote for Biden as the lesser of two evils (Trump being the bigger evil), you are not considering the issue of judicial nominations.

Let's suppose Trump is re-elected and continues to nominate SC justices and federal judges in all courts. Say, two more justices die or retire and the SC becomes 7-2 conservative. Let's suppose, like you are saying, that then the Dems win in 2024, with, say, AOC who by then will be of age to run for president.

Now think of AOC's initiatives, the dream of her generation: the Green New Deal... legislation to curb fossil fuels... student loan relief... free college tuition... and so on and so forth.

Except that... fossil fuel industries sue in court... loan providers sue... colleges sue... and the courts, packed full with conservative judges and justices find for the plaintifs, and all AOC initiatives are struck down.

Then, remember, you can vote out a president or wait for his term limit, you can vote out a senator and a house representative, but you can't vote out a federal judge or a SC justice appointed for a lifetime.

So, you may end up with a problem that may last for the bulk of your generation's adult life.

This is why at this point it is wise to kick the can down the road by electing Biden (if we can; I think that Trump is still the favorite to win re-election).
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/03/20 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: Greger

Fear mongering and vote shaming really aren't gonna work y'know. Electing Biden is just setting yourselves up for failure.


If you are progressive and you feel that since Bernie won't make it, you can't vote for Biden as the lesser of two evils (Trump being the bigger evil), you are not considering the issue of judicial nominations.


Huh. That is exactly why so many Trump fans told me that, as a Conservative, I had to hold my nose and vote for him.


Quote:
Let's suppose Trump is re-elected and continues to nominate SC justices and federal judges in all courts. Say, two more justices die or retire and the SC becomes 7-2 conservative. Let's suppose, like you are saying, that then the Dems win in 2024, with, say, AOC who by then will be of age to run for president.

Now think of AOC's initiatives, the dream of her generation: the Green New Deal... legislation to curb fossil fuels... student loan relief... free college tuition... and so on and so forth.

Except that... fossil fuel industries sue in court... loan providers sue... colleges sue... and the courts, packed full with conservative judges and justices find for the plaintifs, and all AOC initiatives are struck down.


We would be blessed indeed if the structure of our government - wisely left us to allow faction to check faction and to keep us from being able to shove through massive changes on a narrow temporary majority and without widespread consensus - stopped such a nightmare raft.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/03/20 06:54 PM

Unless those massive changes were necessary to ensure the survival of the human race, but conservatives wanted to make more money for the next thirty years. Maybe survival should transcend your desire for stability in the short term.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/03/20 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: Greger

Fear mongering and vote shaming really aren't gonna work y'know. Electing Biden is just setting yourselves up for failure.


If you are progressive and you feel that since Bernie won't make it, you can't vote for Biden as the lesser of two evils (Trump being the bigger evil), you are not considering the issue of judicial nominations.


Huh. That is exactly why so many Trump fans told me that, as a Conservative, I had to hold my nose and vote for him.


Quote:
Let's suppose Trump is re-elected and continues to nominate SC justices and federal judges in all courts. Say, two more justices die or retire and the SC becomes 7-2 conservative. Let's suppose, like you are saying, that then the Dems win in 2024, with, say, AOC who by then will be of age to run for president.

Now think of AOC's initiatives, the dream of her generation: the Green New Deal... legislation to curb fossil fuels... student loan relief... free college tuition... and so on and so forth.

Except that... fossil fuel industries sue in court... loan providers sue... colleges sue... and the courts, packed full with conservative judges and justices find for the plaintifs, and all AOC initiatives are struck down.


We would be blessed indeed if the structure of our government - wisely left us to allow faction to check faction and to keep us from being able to shove through massive changes on a narrow temporary majority and without widespread consensus - stopped such a nightmare raft.


Well, but it isn't balanced. The conservatives currently hold the White House, the Senate, and have a Supreme Court majority. The Dems which is a party made of one-third progressives and two-thirds moderates, hold the House. So if the conservatives keep being nominated non-stop for the courts, it will tilt the balance even more in favor of conservatives. I'd prefer things a bit more balanced.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/06/20 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight

Well, but it isn't balanced. The conservatives currently hold the White House, the Senate, and have a Supreme Court majority. The Dems which is a party made of one-third progressives and two-thirds moderates, hold the House. So if the conservatives keep being nominated non-stop for the courts, it will tilt the balance even more in favor of conservatives. I'd prefer things a bit more balanced.


Not to mention the fact that a large majority of the Trump wing openly express hostility toward democracy itself. Many of them cast it as being wholly illegitimate in this republic.
Of course this is a huge mistake and a huge misinterpretation of the founders, who while eschewing direct Athenian democracy, fought even harder to preserve the institution of representative democracy.

To forego a move toward simple balance in light of that knowledge means that neglecting to strike a balance is guaranteed to usher in the most radical change in Western society short of the end of capitalism itself. And if we do dismantle democracy in this way, capitalism doesn't stand a chance, only Trumpers don't realize that.

We're basically trying to prevent Trumpers from driving the car over the cliff, and Trumpers have pulled out their guns in order that they DO drive over the cliff, taking the rest of us with them.

Sorry, this is no small thing, no small change, it's an enormous change, and not for the better.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/06/20 08:56 PM

Trump has nominated 252 federal judges and 2 SC justices. We're screwed.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/06/20 10:01 PM

Not necessarily. Trump thinks he has nominated Trump judges, but very few of them are that. Almost all of them are via the Federalist Society and are conservative judges. That's why they sometimes find against Trump when his Clown Posse brings the circus to a courtroom.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/06/20 10:34 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Not necessarily. Trump thinks he has nominated Trump judges, but very few of them are that. Almost all of them are via the Federalist Society and are conservative judges. That's why they sometimes find against Trump when his Clown Posse brings the circus to a courtroom.


That's good to know.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/10/20 10:17 PM

Wow, Bill Maher was rather tough on the Biden alleged sex assault allegation:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bill-maher-liberal-media-allowed-040644236.html

Quote:
Given the state of the country and what he called the he said/she said nature of Tara Reade’s allegations, Maher suggested the most practical stance on the Biden scandal might be, “Don’t know. Never will. Don’t care.”
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/10/20 10:49 PM

That's the problem: How can we ever know what really happened. Why was she posting messages just a few years ago praising Biden? But now suddenly is accusing him of exactly what Trump confessed to on TV years ago? Why does her current version of the event match a passage from her father's novel? Trump has this consistent habit of accusing his opponents of exactly what he's guilty of. What does Tara Reade get out of this, besides a lot of attention? Is that her motivation? She sees herself as the next Monica Lewinski?
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/10/20 10:56 PM

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
That's the problem: How can we ever know what really happened. Why was she posting messages just a few years ago praising Biden? But now suddenly is accusing him of exactly what Trump confessed to on TV years ago? Why does her current version of the event match a passage from her father's novel? Trump has this consistent habit of accusing his opponents of exactly what he's guilty of. What does Tara Reade get out of this, besides a lot of attention? Is that her motivation? She sees herself as the next Monica Lewinski?


More like the next Linda Tripp.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/10/20 11:03 PM

I do not grant a lot of credibility to her story.

Like Bill Maher said, the "you gotta believe the woman" push is an opportunity to be gullible.

Sure, to investigate claims is one thing and it should be done, but automatically believing in all claims is a totally different thing, and is not right. Remember the Duke Lacrosse case.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/11/20 05:28 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight

If you are progressive and you feel that since Bernie won't make it, you can't vote for Biden as the lesser of two evils (Trump being the bigger evil), you are not considering the issue of judicial nominations.


Huh. That is exactly why so many Trump fans told me that, as a Conservative, I had to hold my nose and vote for him.


Well, but it isn't balanced. The conservatives currently hold the White House, the Senate, and have a Supreme Court majority. The Dems which is a party made of one-third progressives and two-thirds moderates, hold the House. So if the conservatives keep being nominated non-stop for the courts, it will tilt the balance even more in favor of conservatives. I'd prefer things a bit more balanced.


I understand that (though I think the Court is a bit more balanced than you do), however, that doesn't really address the discussion. There has to be a point at which lesser-of-two-evils isn't enough to make a candidate worthy of one's vote.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/11/20 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight

If you are progressive and you feel that since Bernie won't make it, you can't vote for Biden as the lesser of two evils (Trump being the bigger evil), you are not considering the issue of judicial nominations.


Huh. That is exactly why so many Trump fans told me that, as a Conservative, I had to hold my nose and vote for him.


Well, but it isn't balanced. The conservatives currently hold the White House, the Senate, and have a Supreme Court majority. The Dems which is a party made of one-third progressives and two-thirds moderates, hold the House. So if the conservatives keep being nominated non-stop for the courts, it will tilt the balance even more in favor of conservatives. I'd prefer things a bit more balanced.


I understand that (though I think the Court is a bit more balanced than you do), however, that doesn't really address the discussion. There has to be a point at which lesser-of-two-evils isn't enough to make a candidate worthy of one's vote.


Sure. Unless the bigger of two evils is so big that it is an extinction-level event. I think that Donald J. Trump's incompetence, wannabe-dictator ways, and disrespect for the rule of law, qualify as the worst gap in terms of lesser-of-two-evils we've ever encountered, so, I think we have the obligation to deny him a second term, if we want to survive as one of the leading countries in the world.
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/13/20 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
I think that Donald J. Trump's incompetence, wannabe-dictator ways, and disrespect for the rule of law, qualify as the worst gap in terms of lesser-of-two-evils we've ever encountered, so, I think we have the obligation to deny him a second term, if we want to survive as one of the leading countries in the world.


"I think we have the obligation to deny him a second term, if we want to survive..." as one of the leading countries in the world

There, fixed it for ya! wink

Don't fergit, Twumpy once asked "why we can't just drop a few nukes in Europe".
Extinction level means EXTINCTION, actual cessation of existence as a viable species.

The next "president" might not even be from our species.

Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/13/20 08:07 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Sure. Unless the bigger of two evils is so big that it is an extinction-level event. I think that Donald J. Trump's incompetence, wannabe-dictator ways, and disrespect for the rule of law, qualify as the worst gap in terms of lesser-of-two-evils we've ever encountered, so, I think we have the obligation to deny him a second term, if we want to survive as one of the leading countries in the world.


I concur with James Mattis on this point - the greatest threat to the long term national security is the debt.

That being said, if you honestly believe that a second Trump term represents a real extinction level threat to the human species, then I can understand desperation to avoid that.

I think I would question your judgement in such a case, but at least not your consistency.

Personally, neither of these men deserve my vote, and neither will receive it (shrug).
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/13/20 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Sure. Unless the bigger of two evils is so big that it is an extinction-level event. I think that Donald J. Trump's incompetence, wannabe-dictator ways, and disrespect for the rule of law, qualify as the worst gap in terms of lesser-of-two-evils we've ever encountered, so, I think we have the obligation to deny him a second term, if we want to survive as one of the leading countries in the world.


I concur with James Mattis on this point - the greatest threat to the long term national security is the debt.

That being said, if you honestly believe that a second Trump term represents a real extinction level threat to the human species, then I can understand desperation to avoid that.

I think I would question your judgement in such a case, but at least not your consistency.

Personally, neither of these men deserve my vote, and neither will receive it (shrug).


What's wrong with your comprehension of what I post? I said the survival of our LEADERSHIP in the world. That's what is getting extinct. NOT the human species. Gee!

Please don't put words in my mouth. Please read my posts accurately. And you did quote my very post, with my very phrase that I now have highlighted in bold above, so, from this to the extinction of humankind there is a VAST difference. I'd expect more from you in terms of comprehending a post, unless you want to be deliberately disingenuous.

And it isn't so difficult to see that Haas above was the one talking about the extinction of the species... not me. Better proof, he took that very quote of mine and had to MODIFY IT to make his point.

So, when you react to a post, see if you can manage to react to the RIGHT poster, OK? The one who ISN'T talking about the end of the species.

PS - If you think debt is the biggest threat (a defensible position), then you might have an interest in realizing how Trump is increasing it to a degree never seen before.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/14/20 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Sure. Unless the bigger of two evils is so big that it is an extinction-level event. I think that Donald J. Trump's incompetence, wannabe-dictator ways, and disrespect for the rule of law, qualify as the worst gap in terms of lesser-of-two-evils we've ever encountered, so, I think we have the obligation to deny him a second term, if we want to survive as one of the leading countries in the world.


I concur with James Mattis on this point - the greatest threat to the long term national security is the debt.

That being said, if you honestly believe that a second Trump term represents a real extinction level threat to the human species, then I can understand desperation to avoid that.

I think I would question your judgement in such a case, but at least not your consistency.

Personally, neither of these men deserve my vote, and neither will receive it (shrug).


What's wrong with your comprehension of what I post? I said the survival of our LEADERSHIP in the world. That's what is getting extinct. NOT the human species. Gee!


What you stated was:

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Sure. Unless the bigger of two evils is so big that it is an extinction-level event.


An Extinction Level Event is not "the world becomes more multipolar". It is an Extinction Level Event.

Quote:
Please don't put words in my mouth. Please read my posts accurately. And you did quote my very post, with my very phrase that I now have highlighted in bold above, so, from this to the extinction of humankind there is a VAST difference.


Indeed, the two are quite separate, which is why I responded to them separately, and why I saw no particular reason that you would (as you are now saying you intended) mean that they were, in fact, the same.

(shrug) if you merely intended to use hysterical and hyperbolic language instead of accurately describing what you were referring to, alright. I'm happy to talk about the decline of American leadership and how it plays a role in this election (Spoiler: Both candidates will oversee the continued decline of American leadership in the world, and I do not think that is a justification for voting for either of them).

Quote:
PS - If you think debt is the biggest threat (a defensible position), then you might have an interest in realizing how Trump is increasing it to a degree never seen before.


I've been making that point (that Trump is a big spender) since the GOP primary in 2015, and the threat posed by that increased debt it is one reasons that I take the economic impacts of the COVID shut downs (and the resulting government expenditures) as seriously as I do. It is, after all, my sig line smile
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/14/20 04:07 AM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I've been making that point (that Trump is a big spender) since the GOP primary in 2015, and the threat posed by that increased debt it is one reasons that I take the economic impacts of the COVID shut downs (and the resulting government expenditures) as seriously as I do. It is, after all, my sig line smile

How did capitalism help us in this pandemic? Many companies that could step-up and make PPEs did not. Workers shuttered from their jobs needed financial assistance.

If you were in charge, you would have said: Keep everything open, and those who get the virus will either die or get better. Oh well.

Hmm
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/14/20 08:46 AM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
I do not grant a lot of credibility to her story.

Like Bill Maher said, the "you gotta believe the woman" push is an opportunity to be gullible.

Sure, to investigate claims is one thing and it should be done, but automatically believing in all claims is a totally different thing, and is not right. Remember the Duke Lacrosse case.

Back in the day, mush-brained Ronald Reagan said: Trust, but verify.

This is the same thing, but stated differently. Hmm
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/14/20 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Sure. Unless the bigger of two evils is so big that it is an extinction-level event. I think that Donald J. Trump's incompetence, wannabe-dictator ways, and disrespect for the rule of law, qualify as the worst gap in terms of lesser-of-two-evils we've ever encountered, so, I think we have the obligation to deny him a second term, if we want to survive as one of the leading countries in the world.


I concur with James Mattis on this point - the greatest threat to the long term national security is the debt.

That being said, if you honestly believe that a second Trump term represents a real extinction level threat to the human species, then I can understand desperation to avoid that.

I think I would question your judgement in such a case, but at least not your consistency.

Personally, neither of these men deserve my vote, and neither will receive it (shrug).


What's wrong with your comprehension of what I post? I said the survival of our LEADERSHIP in the world. That's what is getting extinct. NOT the human species. Gee!


What you stated was:

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Sure. Unless the bigger of two evils is so big that it is an extinction-level event.


An Extinction Level Event is not "the world becomes more multipolar". It is an Extinction Level Event.

Quote:
Please don't put words in my mouth. Please read my posts accurately. And you did quote my very post, with my very phrase that I now have highlighted in bold above, so, from this to the extinction of humankind there is a VAST difference.


Indeed, the two are quite separate, which is why I responded to them separately, and why I saw no particular reason that you would (as you are now saying you intended) mean that they were, in fact, the same.

(shrug) if you merely intended to use hysterical and hyperbolic language instead of accurately describing what you were referring to, alright. I'm happy to talk about the decline of American leadership and how it plays a role in this election (Spoiler: Both candidates will oversee the continued decline of American leadership in the world, and I do not think that is a justification for voting for either of them).

Quote:
PS - If you think debt is the biggest threat (a defensible position), then you might have an interest in realizing how Trump is increasing it to a degree never seen before.


I've been making that point (that Trump is a big spender) since the GOP primary in 2015, and the threat posed by that increased debt it is one reasons that I take the economic impacts of the COVID shut downs (and the resulting government expenditures) as seriously as I do. It is, after all, my sig line smile


Oh come on. I specified the extinction of what I was referring to. Again, if you only read ONE phrase out of context (if you keep reading, that is, if you put it in context given the explanation of what kind of extinction I was referring to) you wouldn't know that I wasn't talking about the extinction of the human race, so, no, I wasn't hysterical. You put hysterical things in my mouth. As usual. That's one of the things you do.

If both candidates will preside over the decline of American leadership, maybe so, but I do believe (and I'm entitled to this opinion) that Trump is way way way way way way worse than Biden in this regard. And, like you said, a big spender, not to forget how he hinders the revenue too, with his huge tax cut.

I believe that with 4 more years of Trump we'll go broke much worse than with 4 years of Biden. Can I prove it? Of course not because it hasn't happened yet (a Biden presidency, if it happens), but we do have Trump's 3 and a half years in power to look at, and it isn't pretty.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/14/20 04:43 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Oh come on. I specified the extinction of what I was referring to. Again, if you only read ONE phrase out of context (if you keep reading, that is, if you put it in context given the explanation of what kind of extinction I was referring to) you wouldn't know that I wasn't talking about the extinction of the human race, so, no, I wasn't hysterical. You put hysterical things in my mouth. As usual. That's one of the things you do.


Not at all. The two items are entirely distinct - a loss of American prestige is nothing at all like an Extinction Level Event. It would be like saying "sure, but Biden will lead to nuclear war with China".... and then a paragraph later saying "Biden would also have strong words for President Xi", and then later explaining that what I meant was a rhetorical nuclear exchange of words, and that I can't believe you would even think that when I said "nuclear war with China", what I meant was "nuclear war with China". rolleyes


But whatever. Debates-about-the-debate are pointless. I accept your explanation that you meant to write that it is possible for both major party candidates to be unworthy of one's vote... unless it is possible that one of those candidates would preside over the decline of American leadership. In such a case, I would have to disagree. While the likelihood that a candidate would lead to an accelerated loss of American leadership is certainly a reason not to vote for him, that both candidates are likely to do so (or even that a candidate's major opponent is likelier to do so) is not a reason to vote for them if they are otherwise unacceptable.


We might get more stability in American foreign policy under Biden. Unfortunately, that stability would be locked in on the downward trajectory.


Quote:
If both candidates will preside over the decline of American leadership, maybe so, but I do believe (and I'm entitled to this opinion) that Trump is way way way way way way worse than Biden in this regard. And, like you said, a big spender, not to forget how he hinders the revenue too, with his huge tax cut.


Trump is indeed a massive spender. Biden will be a bigger spender. It's like trading an extinction level event that wipes out all of humanity* for a nuclear extinction level event that wipes out all mammals laugh

*by which I mean debt payment costs become so large that they squeeze out other federal spending, including important defense expenditures


Quote:
I believe that with 4 more years of Trump we'll go broke much worse than with 4 years of Biden. Can I prove it? Of course not because it hasn't happened yet (a Biden presidency, if it happens), but we do have Trump's 3 and a half years in power to look at, and it isn't pretty.


I would have to disagree - take a look at the Democratic agenda and you will see that it is virtually nothing but expenditure increases from the Republican agenda. Even according to Biden's own campaign material, he intends to increase spending even more.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/14/20 05:20 PM

At CPWILL

Your nuclear war analogy is hyperbolic. But OK, let's not debate the debate.

About your other points: in relatively recent history the economy has been generally better under Democrats than under Republicans.

Yeah, yeah, Biden will campaign on increasing spending... but then either won't implement everything or if he tries, these won't pass Congress.

Like the panic around how much Medicare For All would cost under Bernie... while ignoring that the likelihood that Medicare For All would pass Congress, even if both chambers were Democrat with a supermajority, would be a virtual ZERO.

Biden at least would increase taxes again... I think they are dangerously low under Trump.

Now, you probably have access to these numbers better than me... but isn't the spending under Trump and the ballooning debt under Trump worse than in ANY previous Democrat administration?
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/14/20 06:23 PM

Whoever wins the coming election is going to inherit a HUGE MESS! This is a given. Nobody talks about it but its a fact. Unemployment is going to be rampant. The last figures I saw said that regardless of what happens unemployment will be a minimum of 18% and probably more. That's just for starters. I have been, for some time, concerned about our national debt. After the election our national debt will probably be 2, or maybe even 3, times our GDP! When its even a little bit more its a disaster, what I am talking about is even worse. The only real thing we have going for us is that the rest of the world isn't going to be a whole lot better off.

There are many who figure that it all going bafck to the way it was. Just not true. Retail is taking a beating right now and that too is going to get a lot worse as people who have been buying on the net are not going to change their ways real quick. Now throw in the simple fact that Trump is very close to literally shutting down the post office. Don't hear a whole lot about that but its a fact. I can only wonder what happens when that happens.

A couple of fact that might be of interesting. When Hitler took over Germany his support was less than, or equal to maybe 30%. This is also true of the American Revolution. He currently owns 40% and there are a LOT of people who figure that even if he does lose the election he is not going easily or quietly.

All in all, if you consider just what is happening and what its going to be like when Covid-19 has been put to rest you should all be quaking in your boots!

One of the first undertakings that might be of value is that those who are playing the "my way or the highway" just stop it. I am really tired of TV and all the fighting and I am some of the same thoughts about the ongoing battles over this and that whilst the world is planning what might be called The Great Implosion.

Anyway..............
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/14/20 08:39 PM

Originally Posted By: jgw

There are many who figure that it all going back to the way it was. Just not true. Retail is taking a beating right now and that too is going to get a lot worse as people who have been buying on the net are not going to change their ways real quick.


I remember that I liked to go to a local bookstore to leisurely browse books, and to a records store to look up CDs and listen to tracks with their headphones, talk to the store clerk who was knowledgeable, and all.

But one day I started buying books and CDs from Amazon... and was amazed at the ability to sample tracks, "look inside" books, and with the inventory that had literally thousands of options above and beyond the local brick stores... with better prices. Sorry, Mom and Pop brick stores, I never went back. I've been buying all my books (now, Kindle e-books) from Amazon and all my music from Amazon for several years.

Yes, this pandemic will enhance e-commerce and finish destroying the local stores.

And it's not only that. It's that with one in 5 American losing employment, it's already 20% of the market that went away. Plus, the new restrictions, social distancing, store capacity, and simply people afraid of going into stores even if the governors say it's allowed, will mean that stores will be doing slow business and won't be selling that much.

Restaurants... sure, there are the intrepid and irresponsible people who can't wait for orders to be lift, to flock the restaurants and bars... but there are many others saying, "no way, I won't be in an enclosed space, who knows who has the virus there, who knows if the cook is sneezing coronovirus onto my dish..."

People will continue to be afraid, disposable income is lower, and even those who remain employed had their consumer confidence shattered, because they don't know if their employers will remain in business or will downsize, etc.

No, the economy will take a looooooong time to recover. It will recover better when/if we get safe and effective vaccines, but especially if we don't, the economic effects may become long-term.

And all these stimulus packages? That's like printing money. It will result in bigger inflation, and with business being slow, people won't be getting raises so their income will be effectively shrinking.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/15/20 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
At CPWILL

Your nuclear war analogy is hyperbolic. But OK, let's not debate the debate.


smile Fair enough.

Quote:
About your other points: in relatively recent history the economy has been generally better under Democrats than under Republicans.


Like many things, much of that depends on how you measure. Somehow, for example, W gets the blame both for the popping of the tech bubble and the harm it caused during his first year or two, and the popping of the housing bubble, and the harm it caused during Obama's first year or two. Interestingly, W also tends to get the blame for the outflow of the initial loans made to the financial sector, which increased the deficit during his tenure... whereas Obama gets the credit for those loans being paid back, which decreased the deficit during his.

President's don't have a dial on their desk that reads "Economic Growth" which they can increase or decrease at will, nor are President's "in charge" of the economy, or even the Federal Government - and they are only nominally in charge of the Executive Branch. The policies they push - (generally) if championed by Congress - can indeed have major impacts, but Clinton is not responsible for people over-investing in the early Tech Hype any more than Bush is responsible for people lying on their mortgage applications, or Trump is responsible for Chinese labs.

Quote:
Yeah, yeah, Biden will campaign on increasing spending... but then either won't implement everything or if he tries, these won't pass Congress.


Unlikely, given that the Democrats already hold the House, and, in that scenario, are likely to carry the Senate. Biden will have a much more amenable Congress when it comes to expanding funding on his priorities than Trump has. Furthermore, a platform is a statement of intent. Biden intends to dramatically increase spending when we already cannot afford to sustain the current expenditure projections.

Quote:
Like the panic around how much Medicare For All would cost under Biden... while ignoring that the likelihood that Medicare For All would pass Congress, even if both chambers were Democrat with a supermajority, would be a virtual ZERO.


I'd put it at a bit higher than zero, but certainly very low - explicitly because of the cost. Even Congress (at current, at least) can't close it's eyes and pretend that we can afford that.

Quote:
Biden at least would increase taxes again... I think they are dangerously low under Trump.


I think they are destructively complex and what we need is code simplification.

It's additionally worth noting that changes in nominal tax rates do not produce commensurate changes in revenues.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704608104575217870728420184

None of the personal income or capital gains tax increases enacted in the post-WW II period has raised the projected tax revenues.

Prior to the shut down of the economy, we were bringing in record high revenues. We don't have a revenue problem - we have a spending problem.

Quote:
Now, you probably have access to these numbers better than me... but isn't the spending under Trump and the ballooning debt under Trump worse than in ANY previous Democrat administration?


Depends again on how you measure (raw dollars? as a portion of pre-existing debt? relative to GDP?). The last administration to dramatically increase our debt to these levels relative to GDP was a Democrat, but, it was about 75 years ago, so....
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/15/20 06:23 PM

What we really need, instead of giving money away, is to start a jobs program. They did it in the great depression and we need to do it right now! Here is a link of the jobs program back then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

They did A LOT of stuff! They built highway 2, which now needs fixing. We have A LOT of infrastructure they could be working on. Its also a training ground for folks that have no skills. It is, basically, a LOT better than just giving money away.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/15/20 07:33 PM

At CPWILL: now you are simplifying things again. A lot of these economic bubbles that burst has to do with deregulation. Capitalism is overall a good thing and I'm for it, but predatory capitalism needs to be regulated.

Sure, a president himself can't be responsible for 100% of economic progress or failure... which doesn't stop DonDon from claiming credit regarding how the economy was good before COVID-19. Well, two can play this game. If the president is responsible for good times, then he is also responsible for bad times, and while an external factor destroyed our economy, the botched response to it has a large share of responsibility, too.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/15/20 08:32 PM

Quote:
What we really need, instead of giving money away, is to start a jobs program.

Two months ago the nation was at full employment. The economy was booming, corporate coffers were full, The stock market was hitting new record highs every day. CPWILL assures us that the US treasury was raking in record amounts of cash despite trillions in tax cuts for the wealthy.

And not a soul ever thought that anything would ever happen to slow it down. Not a soul saved a penny because the manna from heaven would never cease.

And then it did.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/15/20 10:00 PM

Quote:
Sure, a president himself can't be responsible for 100% of economic progress or failure..

A president is responsible for anything that happens on his watch.

100%

Might or might not be his fault but most likely his policies had a lot to do with it.

When you get yourself elected to be the leader of the free world you take on a lot of responsibilities, at least up until now. Now it's not the poor dear man's fault, no one could have possibly predicted this...and no one could have reacted better!
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/15/20 10:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Sure, a president himself can't be responsible for 100% of economic progress or failure..

A president is responsible for anything that happens on his watch.

100%

Might or might not be his fault but most likely his policies had a lot to do with it.

When you get yourself elected to be the leader of the free world you take on a lot of responsibilities, at least up until now. Now it's not the poor dear man's fault, no one could have possibly predicted this...and no one could have reacted better!


If you read my post in context, I wasn't defending Trump. I despise Trump. I was saying, a president is not 100% responsible for everything, but if he claims the good, then he needs to put up with the bad.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/16/20 01:47 AM

Oh quit whining. I read your post and I know you hate Trump. I care nothing for context. When something catches my eye I comment on it.

Our by-laws require that moderators read every single post in our ongoing search for guideline infractions. I haven't found any in your posts yet but just be aware that I'M WATCHING YOU! eek2
Posted by: Jeffery J. Haas

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/16/20 02:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Oh quit whining. I read your post and I know you hate Trump. I care nothing for context. When something catches my eye I comment on it.

Our by-laws require that moderators read every single post in our ongoing search for guideline infractions. I haven't found any in your posts yet but just be aware that I'M WATCHING YOU! eek2


Yeah but until you pay the $3500 Rant Initiation Fee you can't do anything about it. Still waiting on you to pay up after all these years.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/16/20 02:26 AM

I gave that to Scoutgal years ago, the receipt is in the mod room desk.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/16/20 02:46 AM

I'm just trying to frighten him so he'll back off on those walls of text I have to plod through.

I'm kidding Goodnews. I used to churn out walls of text myself and with the right coffee and weed combo I still do it occasionally, it's fun and it's cathartic.
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/16/20 06:26 AM

Quote:
those walls of text


That's a common symptom of excessive education: You get very prolific. Either that or being retired after decades of intellectual work. smile
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/16/20 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Greger
those walls of text


Well, this is called the Rant, right? Just trying to fit in
Posted by: jgw

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/16/20 06:09 PM

The president is ALWAYS held responsible for the economy during his/her tenure. Its just the way it is. Jackass Trump is trying to change that by finding some way to blame it all on; Obama, Biden, the bad fairies, the evil Democrats, the Chinese, the Iranians, basically anybody and anything that can gain some traction. So far he has failed but, to be honest, he has continued to gen up his supporters who can't get enough and have, obviously, not figured it out - all they know is that the entire world is against them and they are forted up. It is, in other words, a bit like religion (maybe even more than a bit)
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/16/20 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
I gave that to Scoutgal years ago, the receipt is in the mod room desk.

I gave mine to Phil. Check his pockets. coffee
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/25/20 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: Greger
those walls of text


Well, this is called the Rant, right? Just trying to fit in


And you fit in nicely GNT, until you began attacking entire ideologies and the icons of the American left. We have discussed and debated political ideology here for years without quarrel and that's because we avoid attacks, both on the posters and on elected officials.

Reasonable discussion is what we strive for, if you become unreasonable in the eyes of other posters here you will be called on it. If you imagine you know more or your opinions are more valid than others' then you can get f*cked as far as I'm concerned. We keep our numbers low here because we don't put up with self righteous pricks.
Posted by: GreatNewsTonight

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/25/20 10:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: Greger
those walls of text


Well, this is called the Rant, right? Just trying to fit in


And you fit in nicely GNT, until you began attacking entire ideologies and the icons of the American left. We have discussed and debated political ideology here for years without quarrel and that's because we avoid attacks, both on the posters and on elected officials.

Reasonable discussion is what we strive for, if you become unreasonable in the eyes of other posters here you will be called on it. If you imagine you know more or your opinions are more valid than others' then you can get f*cked as far as I'm concerned. We keep our numbers low here because we don't put up with self righteous pricks.


Look, I expressed my opinion about Bernie Sanders. I thought this was a forum to debate politics. So apparently "attacking the icons of the American Left" is not allowed here, huh?

So, you avoid attacks on posters...

Without EVER having attacked any posters here, I was called:

Emotional
Irrational
Over-sensitive
and a self-righteous prick.

Again, what do you want, a sounding board? So you keep the numbers low, but the only people welcome here are the ones who share your views? If someone dislikes Bernie Sanders, oh, the person doesn't fit? And the person needs to be attacked at every turn? Is this what you call a reasonable discussion?

Just curious...

Anyway, whatever. I'll de deleting my account soon. Just saying farewell to a couple of nice people here, by PM.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/25/20 11:44 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Without EVER having attacked any posters here, I was called:
Emotional
Irrational
Over-sensitive
and a self-righteous prick.

Again, what do you want, a sounding board? So you keep the numbers low, but the only people welcome here are the ones who share your views? If someone dislikes Bernie Sanders, oh, the person doesn't fit? And the person needs to be attacked at every turn? Is this what you call a reasonable discussion?

Just curious...

Anyway, whatever. I'll de deleting my account soon. Just saying farewell to a couple of nice people here, by PM.

As it seems I "started" this, let me say a few words.

Words are a thing of mine, I like to try to be accurate and consistent in using their proper meanings. Like Perotista does with his statistics - keep it accurate and objective.

I also tend to believe that sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me (full disclosure, I didn't coin that phrase).

When I read GNTs post about Sanders (several times), I perceived the following things (in other words, I formed an opinion):

I perceived a level of something bordering on hatred for Sanders - I called that 'spleen', as in 'venting one's spleen". It's also called 'ranting', so thereby qualifying sweet and to the point of the name of this forum. By my logic, it isn't an attack to say that someone here is ranting.

I also noted that Senator Sanders was labelled a 'loser', or some other insulting and demeaning term of non-endearment at least 8 times, including a declaration that he had a failed career. The rationale for that was limited to these two facts: Sanders never introduced a bill that got passed; and Sanders has lost some elections. There are a great many other facts associated with Sanders' career, which indicate that he has had a great deal of influence, most of it positive and aligned with my world view. Therefor, I assessed the (too) numerous 'loser' and 'failure' comments to be irrational (rational: based on or in accordance with reason or logic), as they ignored a lot of Sanders' 'wins'.

As for using the word 'emotional' (characterized by intense feeling), that too was a perception, arising from the tone of the rant, and supported in my opinion by the overuse of 'loser' and the spleen venting about Sanders.

I probably don't need to review the meaning of sensitive, but let me leave it at perhaps being supported by a pretty hyperbolic reaction to my observations, and the interpreting of my comments as an 'attack'. I have to say that if my expression of a logically substantiated opinion is an attack, and I have to watch what I say to the degree of suppressing my perceptions and opinions in order to not offend someone who is completely free to express theirs, that the person being coddled is probably overly 'sensitive'.

Now, you have the choice of taking these comments as 'discussion', or 'attacks'. You pays yore money and you takes yer chances... step right up!
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/26/20 12:11 AM

And, son, if you choose to be a self righteous prick then it's all on you. And I didn't call you that until you said goodbye and walked out the door. I honestly thought I'd never see you again and wasn't particularly disappointed by that assumption.

Now you can stay or you can go, I don't particularly care one way or the other. But be aware that when you dish out bullsh*t somebody here is gonna call you on it. Getting all butthurt and whiny about it aint gonna win you brownie points.

You will be respected here as long as you are respectful.

You will be well considered here as long as you consider your words well.

You've upset a dear old friend of mine and caused him to resign from the position I talked him into taking. A position, I might add, that has proven fatal to all that have taken it on. None have survived it since 1994.

Please go away, you haven't the wit to run with this crowd.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/28/20 07:18 PM

This is more or less why I hardly ever post.
Posted by: Hamish Howl

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/28/20 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
And, son, if you choose to be a self righteous prick then it's all on you. And I didn't call you that until you said goodbye and walked out the door. I honestly thought I'd never see you again and wasn't particularly disappointed by that assumption.

Now you can stay or you can go, I don't particularly care one way or the other. But be aware that when you dish out bullsh*t somebody here is gonna call you on it. Getting all butthurt and whiny about it aint gonna win you brownie points.

You will be respected here as long as you are respectful.

You will be well considered here as long as you consider your words well.

You've upset a dear old friend of mine and caused him to resign from the position I talked him into taking. A position, I might add, that has proven fatal to all that have taken it on. None have survived it since 1994.

Please go away, you haven't the wit to run with this crowd.


Oh, for [censored]'s sake.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/28/20 08:10 PM

Howl's it hangin', Hamish?

(Mid-afternoon is my slow brain time...)
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/29/20 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
At CPWILL: now you are simplifying things again. A lot of these economic bubbles that burst has to do with deregulation. Capitalism is overall a good thing and I'm for it, but predatory capitalism needs to be regulated.


Meh, bubbles tend to burst because assets have become over-valued. Deregulation generally impacts that process indirectly, mostly when it helps create the conditions for growth which folks later become overly-optimistic about.

Quote:
Sure, a president himself can't be responsible for 100% of economic progress or failure... which doesn't stop DonDon from claiming credit regarding how the economy was good before COVID-19. Well, two can play this game. If the president is responsible for good times, then he is also responsible for bad times, and while an external factor destroyed our economy, the botched response to it has a large share of responsibility, too.


:shrug: if you want to talk political messaging, sure - but that is a far cry from reality. People like a simple "President Good = Economy Good; President Bad = Economy Bad" approach because it doesn't require them to do a lot of thinking, and generally lets them confirm that they are on the Right Side (it's always entertaining when the White House flips and so do people's opinion of how well the economy is doing).
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/29/20 09:52 PM

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...when it helps create the conditions for growth which folks later become overly-optimistic about.

Regular folks calls that 'greed'. wink
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/29/20 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...when it helps create the conditions for growth which folks later become overly-optimistic about.

Regular folks calls that 'greed'. wink


No, it's called optimism, and, in this case, is an application of the fallacy that current trends will continue forever without understanding their basic drivers.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/29/20 11:45 PM

'At's what I said, greed. Maybe I should have said, stupid greed?
Posted by: pdx rick

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 05/30/20 01:52 AM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
'At's what I said, greed. Maybe I should have said, stupid greed?

This is a classic Dunning-Kruger Effect: Greedy people don't know they're greedy.

smile
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 06/01/20 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: logtroll
'At's what I said, greed. Maybe I should have said, stupid greed?

Stupid greed? Nah. Plenty of intelligent people take part in bubbles - in fact, the vast majority of active folks do (that's why they are bubbles). Were American's greedy because they wanted to own homes? Because they thought that, when digital tech began to explode, that it was incredible and kinda magical? That would require such a loose definition of "greed" as to make the term meaningless.
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 06/01/20 11:15 PM

I see you are impervious to reality. At least so far...
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 06/02/20 05:46 PM

Exploitation of the workforce is not recognized by the petit bourgeois. Nor the lumpenproles.

Revolutions are never easy.
Posted by: CPWILL

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 06/02/20 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
Exploitation of the workforce is not recognized by the petit bourgeois. Nor the lumpenproles.

Revolutions are never easy.


In a system of free exchange where that workforce has options, employment is a mutually beneficial trade. I don't go to work simply because I like it - I go because they give me a combination of cash and benefits to do so.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 06/03/20 04:31 AM

And so no exploitation exists? Like I said.
Posted by: Greger

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 06/03/20 04:32 PM

Quote:
Whenever people bring up the ways the system has failed so many Americans - there are always naysayers – always white, usually men, often pretty well off – who say, how can you be so negative? Why do you want to dwell on all the worst parts of history? Don’t you love our country?
My response to our country’s naysayers and sunshine patriots is this: how can you be so pessimistic as to believe this is the best we can do? Do you really think that the American people – with our ingenuity and optimism and tenacity – do you really think we can’t create a fairer economy and a more just government?
Do you truly believe we can’t have a society that works for everyone – black and white and brown, women and men, no matter who you are or what kind of work you do?

Senator Sherrod Brown (D) Ohio
Posted by: pondering_it_all

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 06/03/20 06:29 PM

Let America Be America Again

Bow
Posted by: logtroll

Re: First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020 - 06/04/20 01:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Greger
And so no exploitation exists? Like I said.

A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means -- except by getting off his back. -Leo Tolstoy, novelist and philosopher (1828-1910)