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#100191 - 02/12/09 06:17 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: SkyHawk]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC
 Originally Posted By: SkyHawk
Trying to paint illegal border crossings and trespass as soley "between a rabble of brown-skinned, undocumented aliens" and "a male member of the landed White gentry" doesn't wash.

I don't see where anyone was trying to do that, Sky. In fact, I have been arguing consistently that it's a mistake to lump all cases of brown-skinned people being found on private property into one big "criminal trespassers, property destroyers, and generally dangerous people" pot. I'd like you to point out one, just one case where someone posting on this thread has described the case at hand in such general terms as you've criticized, among those of us who have expressed any sympathy at all for the plaintiffs.

Just one, Sky. And then I will take your criticism more seriously.

As for Mr. Barnett being a member of the "landed White male gentry", I'd be glad to provide one or several links to establish that fact. But I suspect you have already seen them yourself. Just let me know if somehow they have escaped your notice, and I'd be glad to help out.
_________________________
Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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#100192 - 02/12/09 06:22 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: issodhos]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC
I appreciate your stipulating that "the jury got it right", iss. Once again showing your mettle. I respect your honesty.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
And since you immediately implied that he is a racist, it should be remembered that a racist still retains the rights held by others relative to his property. Whether he is a racist or it is simply a slur being attached to him, he certainly does not like illegal aliens using and abusing his property.

I did not mean to imply that he was/is a racist. I do maintain that his action was a racist action. I have occasionally engaged in a racist action myself, but I don't call myself a racist either.

What did I say that you inferred was labeling him a racist?
_________________________
Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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#100206 - 02/12/09 09:07 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: stereoman]
Scoutgal Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 27583
Loc: CA USA
 Originally Posted By: stereoman
So let's see, if I read that right, the defendant in the case has a history of threatening, intimidation, and assault, while the plaintiffs have a record of . . . well, they don't have a record at all, as far as anybody has uncovered so far. Who's the criminal in this case, again?

I still don't think they stand a chance of winning the suit. Given a choice between a rabble of brown-skinned, undocumented aliens, or a male member of the landed White gentry, criminal though he may be, who's the jury going to believe? Anyone want to hazard a guess that differs from mine?

As for the argument that Mr. Barnett would naturally be out looking, since his property is so large, does that explain why he was looking on State land? Hmm. Maybe it's adjacent to his own land, and he didn't quite see where the boundary was.

Maybe the plaintiffs were unaware of his property boundary, too. Who knows?


Just as Barnett was cited for crimes and you term hima criminal, so are the trespassers, since they were on private property without the permission of the owner. The portrayal here of them being total innocents is a false premise. While it doesn'r excuse the criminal actions that Barnett took on State lands, It is totally understandable that he is frustrated with the damage being done to his property and has taken steps to protect it and his family.

Faced with a mob of 16 trespassers, I can understand keeping a gun in such a remote area of the state. It's not like you can flag down a police officer from a nearby street corner, or even have cell service to call 911 for a timely response.

The above quoted posts name the 16 trespassers as "brown-skinned, undocumented aliens". That would make them criminals, as they 1)were undocumented(read ILLEGAL) and 2)trespassing. So, it seems that both sides are criminals.
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#100212 - 02/12/09 10:12 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: Scoutgal]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16553
A point of clarification: If Mr. Barnett is leasing the land from the federal government (BLM, probably) for grazing, which is my assumption from the information provided, then he has the right to be on the federal land for grazing purposes (a surface right) but such use is not exclusive - in other words, it remains federal land and he has permission to be there, but it is not his land and he has no authority to exclude anyone else from using it. If there were others on the land, it is not trespass against Mr. Barnett, but against the federal government (which, frankly, would be surprising, since it is public land). I would be surprised if his lease was more exclusive than that. It is common in such areas to have those kinds of use leases which are exclusive as to the lease but not for other purposes not inconsistent with such use.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#100213 - 02/12/09 10:13 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: Scoutgal]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC
It's not up to you to afford anyone due process of law, since you're neither a lawyer nor a judge and you're not trying the case. You're entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that a jury found Mr. Barnett guilty of assault and intimidation, whereas the plaintiffs in this case have never been found guilty of anything in a court of law.Whether they were in the US illegally, or even whether they were trespassing, has been alleged but not established. So, as I stipulated, they have no record of criminal activity, whereas Mr. Barnett does.

A person who is undocumented is not necessarily breaking the law, as Mellow Julia so illustriously pointed out earlier. And, furthermore, a person is never illegal. Ever. A person may commit an illegal act, a person may be a heinous criminal, but a person is not illegal.
_________________________
Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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#100216 - 02/12/09 10:30 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: stereoman]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41124
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
...be he can be illegitimate ;\)
_________________________
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#100221 - 02/12/09 11:42 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: stereoman]
SkyHawk Offline
Admin Emeritus
old hand

Registered: 04/07/99
Posts: 6298
Stereo, you apparently missed my entire point. The members of the Tohono Nation are not "white landed gentry" yet they are having exactly the same problems that Mr Barnett is.

Here is some interesting testimony to members of Congress held on the Tohono Nation I't long, but worth the read if you really want to get a better understanding of what people who live in southern Arizona are really dealing with. link
 Quote:
I have lived in Meneger's Dam all of my life and I
am a mother and a grandmother and I care very deeply about my
family, my community and my Nation.

Drug smugglers travel through our village day and night.
They are very open about their business; they recruit our
children, 8 and 9 year olds, to watch for approaching law
enforcement agents. They pay our children in drugs.
...

Late in 1999, at about 7 p.m., well after dark, someone
knocked at my door. I opened the door and found a man dressed
in a Mexican military uniform carrying a machine gun. A Humvee
vehicle was parked in my front yard and four other uniformed
and heavily armed men stood next to the vehicle. The man at the
door asked for a man I did not know. It was obvious to me that
the men at the door were looking for a lost drug load. My
children were in the house and I was very scared for our
safety.


 Quote:
Not so long ago, many ranchers from both sides of the
border worked together to resolve our common problems. Today,
our fences are regularly cut by drug smugglers and our cattle
strays south of the border. Our sacred environment is
desecrated by vehicles driving over our pristine desert.

Our family ranch is located in a very remote area at least
1 hour from the nearest law enforcement officials. Sometimes
people come to our ranch asking for food and water. We see they
are carrying large bundles and know that they are transporting
drugs.

I am very concerned about the safety of my family and other
community members that reside in the Chukut Kuk District."

So much for fencing..
 Quote:
my friends in Congress talk about fencing. I think they are clueless about the degree of lack of fencing that we have, and for example, the information we gathered down there about fencing being stolen and moved south and how actually the fencing that has moved south does more good than the fencing that is right on the border, because the fencing that is on the border gets cut so quickly.
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#100222 - 02/12/09 11:48 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: SkyHawk]
SkyHawk Offline
Admin Emeritus
old hand

Registered: 04/07/99
Posts: 6298
These are comments made previously on the thread..
 Quote:
Sounds like a case of rampant bigotry to me. These people he held at gunpoint, verbally and physically abused, were automatically guilty of defacing his property and breaking into his house because they had the same skin color as someone else who did commit such crimes

Underneath the obvious racial bigotry...

First off, I'm just going to guess that if the intruders look like Anglo-Americans, you would first ask them to leave, and if they persisted, you would call the police.

In real life, it doesn't happen that way. Just try to find a few people who have been stopped by a police officer for Driving While White. Heck, not long ago, a young man here in Asheville was detained for Walking Through the Wrong Neighborhood While Black. When's the last time that happened to a White man?

The county prosecutor and law enforcement officers probably just share his sentiments about illegals, Mexicans, or pretty much anybody not Caucasian. Why prosecute him if a local jury won't convict? Why arrest him if no charges will be filed. Illegals are the new slave-class in America

Given a choice between a rabble of brown-skinned, undocumented aliens, or a male member of the landed White gentry, criminal though he may be, who's the jury going to believe? Anyone want to hazard a guess that differs from mine?

The jury actually found that the brown-skinned family was trespassing, but awarded them a hefty settlement anyway.
Who's introducing racism into the discussion? You be the judge.
_________________________
SkyHawk
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#100224 - 02/12/09 11:58 PM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: SkyHawk]
SkyHawk Offline
Admin Emeritus
old hand

Registered: 04/07/99
Posts: 6298
Here is an interesting article that shows the issues from both sides in a very personal way. The story is ten years old and the situation has gotten much worse since then.
Arizona Ranchers Inundated by Flood of Illegal Immigrants

 Quote:
Once in Arizona, it’s almost impossible for [illegal immigrants] to avoid ranch country. They slip through the barbed wire or simply cut it, and move north under the cover of mesquite bushes and cactus, sometimes hiking as far as 25 miles.
...
[Morin] returned to find his ranch turned into a garbage dump, only the latest sign it was time to pack up.

Plastic grocery bags, used by immigrants to carry their clothes, clung to his trees. Water bottles, some still half-filled, were tossed next to his cattle.

In the last three years, Morin has had to sell off more than 60% of his herd due to drought. Now he fears they’ll eat a plastic bag, get their intestines twisted and die.


 Quote:
Then there are the fences. For miles along the three main roads near Double Adobe, they’ve been trampled and cut, allowing cattle to get loose.

Another neighbor, Jan Edgerton, spent one recent morning rounding up 26 cows that escaped when a group of illegal immigrants left her gate open.

“It’s a pain in the butt, I’ll tell you,” says Robert Hoffman, 74, who has lived on the same road since 1953. “You’re not allowed to shoot ‘em, but I keep threatening to hang ‘em on these fence poles.”

For ranchers, it’s more than a nuisance; it’s a threat to their wallets, to their entire way of life.

“There’s been several million dollars’ worth of fence damage,” says Dan Greene, one of 12 Border Patrol agents on so-called ranch patrol. That was formed this summer when ranchers began complaining they needed help. In its first three weeks, the unit apprehended 4,000 immigrants on ranches around Douglas.

Greene has firsthand knowledge of the ranchers’ problem. He helps out on his uncle’s land, 50 miles north, where six calves have been slaughtered in the last year, apparently by immigrants desperate for food.
_________________________
SkyHawk
.

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#100225 - 02/13/09 12:06 AM Re: 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher [Re: SkyHawk]
SkyHawk Offline
Admin Emeritus
old hand

Registered: 04/07/99
Posts: 6298
Another article... Illegal Immigration Costly for Southeastern Arizona Ranchers
 Quote:
In southeasternArizona, one cow needs about 50 acres of land. Rob Krentz has about 35,000 acres. But for this lifelong rancher, the people, illegal immigrants crossing his land, not the cattle, have him concerned.

“We’re being over-run, and it’s costing us lots and lots of money,” Krentz said.

Such a large ranch already requires plenty of work; however, the growing masses of people from Mexico and other places south of the border who cross Krentz’s land take a toll on his fences, water lines, and his pocket book.

“We figured it up over the last five years and it’s cost us over $8 million,” Krentz said. “Cattle don’t like people walking through, so they move. So, cattle weight loss, destruction of fences, breaking our pipelines, they break them in two and (the pipes) run for two or three days before we find it.”

It seems to me that a lot of folk really don't understand what that part of the country is really like, and how hard it is to scratch a living from it.
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