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#112152 - 05/21/09 10:30 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15656
Loc: Florida
 Quote:

Only unalienable rights I have seen listed are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"
Those three things cover a lot of ground.
 Quote:
Assuming that is the list, then it is unconstitutional to carry out the death penalty or to order a soldier/sailor/airman into combat
Logan, your Hero, George Bush, was very fond of the death penalty. I on the other hand am not. It's use is questionable and is questioned each and every time it is used. Is the death penalty an effective deterrent to crime or a violation of the United States Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment?
As far as the military, is it too big a stretch to imagine an all volunteer military? I personally think conscription(the draft) of any sort is, indeed, unconstitutional.
 Quote:
similarly unconstitutional to incarcerate even the most vicious serial killer
I have no idea what might have given you these wild ideas. I'm a socialist and I understand Libertarianism better than that. These criminals, from petty thieves right up the list, have infringed on the rights of others and will face punishment to match the crime. You are an expert on the law Logan, perhaps you can tell me why laws are written?
Is it to protect the rights of individuals from the predation or endangerment by other individuals?
And finally this:
 Quote:
unconstitutional to protect children from child molesters.
I imagined you could think more clearly than this Logan. Let's run through it slowly. Do children have rights?
Yes. Do parents have rights? Yes. Do the laws, the Constitution, the government, from Federal down to the village council exist to protect these rights? Yes. Do you feel that child molestation is an infringement on these rights? Do you imagine that a Libertarian would disagree with you? Regardless of the views of some Texans who voted for Ron Paul, It would, indeed, be unconstitutional to write a law that says who may or may not get married. It would be unconstitutional to write a law that says one plant that grows in your garden is legal but another is not.
It would be unconstitutional to write a law that interferes with any medical decisions you might make about your own body. I have no idea why these concepts are so difficult for some to grasp.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#112159 - 05/21/09 11:34 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15656
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


I think the only rights that can be "common" to all are those unalienable individual rights held by each and every person. Beyond that, I think the term "common rights" has the tincture of group 'rights' which is also a fiction.
Yours,
Issodhos


Well, of course, issodhos, how could I ever forget that you alone determine such matters? Maybe you have some other support for that claim, which by the way, completely negates the Constitution.


Phil I'm not sure what hat you pulled this statement out of and perhaps you could explain how his reply to you "negates the Constitution". until then let's discuss "common rights". If, by common rights, you mean rights that we all share(in common) then we also share these same rights as "individual rights" Right? Either we all have the right to bear arms or none of us do, we all "have the right to remain silent" or none do. All rights are common and all rights are individual.
When Issodhos mentions "group rights" I think he is speaking of rights granted to tall people but not short people, Black vs white, young or old, male vs female, gay vs straight.
No such rights exist or, if there are, perhaps you could point out where those are listed or alluded to in the constitution....

Earlier, when you mentioned "common rights", I thought it meant things like Social Programs. Programs like Social Security and yes, even Welfare, that assure the aged, afflicted, and unfortunate individuals, who slip through the cracks for one reason or another, a chance to live with dignity. I understand that this means the government must take from one group to give to another, the very antithesis of Libertarianism, but I also feel that, while Americans are more than willing to give to a worthy cause, there must be a bit of coercion in place to spur them into given enough.

Maybe I've gotten this all mixed up somehow, I'm not the sharpest thorn on the rose after all, If I have forgive me and please clarify the above.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#112161 - 05/21/09 12:06 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17159
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
I disagree with both you and your brother, NWP.
Wow, Iss, that makes you pretty disagreeable... ;\)

But, to carry on that tradition, I think you missed the point entirely. Not all interference with other interests are "actionable." Again, I am afraid, you have created a strawman with all your "examples." There is a huge body of laws that address the "interference with interests" that does not address criminality - it's called "civil law." It started with the common law of torts, but also addresses contracts, and now a whole body of other issues: nuisance laws, equal protection laws, etc., etc., etc. They have been known for hundreds of years in our legal tradition as "courts of equity."

 Quote:
If two applicants are after the same job and one applicant arrives a half hour earlier than he and the other is supposed to arrive and, as a result, gets the job, he has interfered with the interests of the other applicant. How does the government have any role in such an action?
It doesn't, but... what if one applicant is black or a woman and is the one who gets there early? What if the other was late because the other blocked the entrance to the parking garage forcing the other to drive an extra 6 blocks to find a parking space? What if one of the applicants' girlfriend "accidentally" scheduled the other applicant's appointment 20 minutes later without telling the interviewer?

 Quote:
Two people are at an auction and are bidding on the same item for separate clients. One out-bids the other, directly interfering with the business interests of the other. How does the government have any role in such an action?
What if one of the clients has those funds for money-laundering? What if the bids are based upon false claims of available credit? What if the auction house doesn't have permission to sell the item?

 Quote:
Two women are competing with each other to win the affections and eventual marriage of an eligible man. One of the women bests the other woman and, in so doing, interferes with the other’s interests. How does the government have any role in such an action?
What if she "bested" her by stealing her identity? What if she trashed the other woman's car? What if she engaged in a pattern of character assassination by spreading lies about her?

 Quote:
I’m going to have to stick to the idea that the primary role of the government is securing and protecting the rights of the individual – not delving about and intruding upon his “interests".
Then you are going to miss out on most of the protections of the Constitution and our legal system, my friend - like the ability to participate in this forum.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#112165 - 05/21/09 12:30 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
IF the position that unalienable rights cannot be modified is the answer, then they cannot be modified for ANY reason. No matter how honorable. So the crux of the argument becomes; is there any right that is unalienable?

There certainly are some that argue there are such rights; descended from natural law, the flowery language of the Declaration of Independence (which, as a footnote, has no legal standing; it is mere puffery announcing the intent to hold a revolution), or some other source.

My post, of course, points out what a tragic world we would live in if we took this argument seriously.
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112167 - 05/21/09 12:32 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: Greger

As far as the military, is it too big a stretch to imagine an all volunteer military? I personally think conscription(the draft) of any sort is, indeed, unconstitutional.


Separate issue: doesn't matter whether the soldier/sailor/airman is a conscript or a volunteer. Ordering that person to die is a deprivation of the unalienable right to Life and therefore is not permitted.

I suppose if we had a volunteer army and a bunch of guys volunteered to charge into a hail of bullets, that would be okay.
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112170 - 05/21/09 12:39 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Quote:

I'm a socialist and I understand Libertarianism better than that.

not sure how one follows from the other. socialism is the most anti-libertarian socio-political system of the major isms. Won't challenge the assertion, but the cause and effect relationship suggested by the statement fails.

 Quote:
These criminals, from petty thieves right up the list, have infringed on the rights of others and will face punishment to match the crime.


Any punishment that interferes with the perp's liberty or pursuit of justice violates unalienable rights and therefore is disallowed. Those rights, you see, are, like gun ownership, inviolable. Even if someone else may be harmed by a failure to act, the unalienable right trumps the action. Or so goes the theory. Is it an absurd notion. Well, yes, of course it is. But hard to discuss a concept without getting to its root beliefs.

 Quote:
You are an expert on the law Logan, perhaps you can tell me why laws are written?

The motivation of lawmakers was not part of my law school curriculum and my legal practice did not include any time as a lobbyist nor a legislator so I will have to pass on that question.
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112174 - 05/21/09 01:09 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


IMO it is worthwhile to consider why and how governments came into being. That is, how did primitive human groupings develop the institution of "government".

IMO, the examination of that question will show that government did not develop as a means to secure rights. And, if that is the case, it seems logically problematical to propose that this function is the EXCLUSIVE justification for the existence of the institution of government.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#112175 - 05/21/09 01:28 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15656
Loc: Florida
I think the title of the thread really should be "Libertarians make you stupid"

Once again I can't understand why you insist on making up strange, imaginary situations(straw men) and claiming them to be what Libertarians stand for or what the result of a free society might be. Perhaps you are so steeped in totalitarianism that you cannot think clearly about freedom.
Here, Logan, is the unfathomably difficult answer to the conundrum you have presented:
When a soldier volunteers for Military Service he volunteers to charge into that hail of bullets if such is required, which meets your personal requirement that:
 Quote:
if we had a volunteer army and a bunch of guys volunteered to charge into a hail of bullets, that would be okay.

In reality our soldiers are suppose to create that hail of bullets, not charge into it ;\)
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#112180 - 05/21/09 02:14 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


IMO it is worthwhile to consider why and how governments came into being. That is, how did primitive human groupings develop the institution of "government".

IMO, the examination of that question will show that government did not develop as a means to secure rights. And, if that is the case, it seems logically problematical to propose that this function is the EXCLUSIVE justification for the existence of the institution of government.
i'll bite on this. this brings to mind hunter/gatherers. my first thought here is that they would have organized, on some level, to ensure the group was fed and kept safe from the elements. thus, a division of labor was introduced, each person accepting a job that would assist in benefitting the whole.
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#112185 - 05/21/09 02:51 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15656
Loc: Florida
And so we have a primitive tribe, division of labor is introduced, some hunt for meat and hides, some gather berries and eggs, cure the hides and cook the meat. They have no concept of land ownership, Noble Savages so to speak. The first piece of property is a sharpened stick. "Savage A" found and sharpened the stick, thinking himself very clever and able to kill animals easier. "Savage B" wants it and tries to take it. "Savage A" pokes him and shows him who is boss. Government is created to assure property rights.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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