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#111460 - 05/15/09 02:44 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Mellowicious]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: Mellowicious

I think it is that concept - that a discussion or debate involves a lure (or perhaps bait) and getting hooked (or snared, perhaps) that some might find less than straightforward; most of us would rather be the fisher than the fished - even better, to converse without checking for lures.



I, also, would much rather engage in a disinterested and co-operative search for truth, rather than attempt to catch and eat other human beings. But I will not hold my breath waiting for others to join me in my noble goals.

It may surprise some people that I have a great deal of sympathy for Libertarianism and its goals; I would wish it great success if.... Ah, yes, IF! Frankly, it makes me feel like a frustrated lover. As I get close to Libertarianism, I start finding it repellent, even a little frightening! There is an element of fanaticism about it, a blinkered vision, an inability to let complex reality interfere with the quasi-religious dogma Libertarians embrace. They seem only to see the (very real) sins of government, and to ignore sins which would arise from other centers of power, once the dragon of Big Government is slain. (I think principally of the power of Mega-Business and other centers of financial power)

As long as Libertarians are so narrow-minded and obsessive, I must part company with them. If people do not have a sense of balance in their political views, I think they are dangerous.

Although I like political theory, I am very suspicious of it. Ideally, I think politics should be an experimental science; that it should start with a variety of small scale models, that the bugs should be worked out before political procedures are scaled up to wide scale application. Above all, there should be flexibility, an awareness that there are "different strokes for different folks," there is no "one size fits all" in human affairs, and above all, circumstances change, and we should change with them.

But what do we see in history? People with inflexible theories, who are easy prey for scoundrels who flatter them; rigid and fossilized social institutions that fight tooth-and-nail to protect parasitic and narrow interests.

Nothing changes until there is a catastrophic crisis, and then everything changes, without the careful thought and preparation that should precede political change. Chaos, waste, and incredible suffering are then inevitable.

Really, how can I have any respect for most humans, when they are so incredibly stupid not to see facts that are so blindingly obvious!


Edited by numan (05/15/09 09:22 PM)
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#111461 - 05/15/09 02:50 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41798
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
 Originally Posted By: numan
...I think politics should be an experimental science...

Is that what the US government and its constitution is, an extended experiment?
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#111463 - 05/15/09 03:39 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ron G. Offline
member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
...
Thanks for rating the argument. Now that you have given your opinion about my argument, how about saying something substantive instead?

Okay. Do any of the writers actually say that libertarianism causes stupidity? I do not believe that they did; thus it would appear that your post title was purely to inflame and bait.

No, I do not have a problem with you trying to bait Issodhos. After all, I believe it was your opinion that he was trying to bait others. So, it's that goose/gander thing. Also, I doubt seriously that Issodhos is overly concerned that you appear to be trying to bait Issodhos.

 Quote:
You know, on another thread a big deal was made about my calling into question the lead post and I got pretty well banged up about it.

I believe my concern was not with the lead post per se, but rather what you and others were trying to say it said about Issodhos.

 Quote:
Interesting that all either you or issodhos can post on this thread are critiques of my skills at arguing.

I can't speak for Issodhos; however, as stated elsewhere in this thread, I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable of the breadth of libertairian philosophy to be qualified to conduct a general defense of it.

 Quote:
I take that as an open admission that you got nothing.

In this case, I'm nothing but a strawman for you to hold up as an excellent (non)example of a libertarian. Perhaps you can point out where I claimed to be one?

 Quote:
As I say, libertarianism is crap put forth without good intentions by people who have no real world experience or responsibilities.

That's a rather broad and irresponsible statement to make, isn't it...considering that you know nothing of Issodhos except what he's mentioned here. Isn't that what is called the fallacy of hasty generalization?
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#111464 - 05/15/09 03:40 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ron G.]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
I'm an [old-style | principled | paleo-] conservative, and that means I do share to a lot of their philosophy; however, I'm not sure if I understand all parts of it well enough to be defending it.
That's OK by me, Ron, because I have lost all faith in conservatism as a relevant political philosophy too... ;\)
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#111467 - 05/15/09 04:30 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ron G.]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Yeah it is an over reach, and I am deleting that. Thanks.
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#111469 - 05/15/09 04:38 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
I beliewve,Ron, that the thread is a title from the first link. While it may have been a deliberate provocation, it was the basis for the thread.

And, numan, where I think you go wrong in your perception/analysis is failing to consider that the structure of the constitution is itself designed to prevent precisely the kind of descent into anarchy that you posit.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#111470 - 05/15/09 04:45 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

And, numan, where I think you go wrong in your perception/analysis is failing to consider that the structure of the constitution is itself designed to prevent precisely the kind of descent into anarchy that you posit.



I marvel that, at this late date, you imagine that the Constitution is preventing a descent into anarchy.

-
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#111471 - 05/15/09 04:48 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: pdx rick]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: california rick

Is that what the US government and its constitution is, an extended experiment?



It is an extended failed experiment!

-
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#111472 - 05/15/09 04:55 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ron G.]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
However, I perceive that the person you really want an exchange with is Issodhos, the one person here clearly identifiable as a libertarian; thus, the flame-bait title and my still-standing YOTF rating of 2.


No doubt, Ron. And I will probably agree to be Phil's "huckleberry" in this thread, but at the moment I am still intrigued with and mentally dwelling on the "rootedness" - "blood and soil" thing. One thing I find somewhat humorous is the claim by some that they are here to cooperatively seek Truth, when in reality, anyone who has been on the Internet and sought to interact on that level quickly found that what such claimants almost always really mean is that they are eager to join a choir that will re-enforce their own thoughts without meaningful critique.:-)
Yours in "il gran rifiuto",
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111473 - 05/15/09 05:22 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
However, I perceive that the person you really want an exchange with is Issodhos, the one person here clearly identifiable as a libertarian; thus, the flame-bait title and my still-standing YOTF rating of 2.


No doubt, Ron. And I will probably agree to be Phil's "huckleberry" in this thread, but at the moment I am still intrigued with and mentally dwelling on the "rootedness" - "blood and soil" thing. One thing I find somewhat humorous is the claim by some that they are here to cooperatively seek Truth, when in reality, anyone who has been on the Internet and sought to interact on that level quickly found that what such claimants almost always really mean is that they are eager to join a choir that will re-enforce their own thoughts without meaningful critique.:-)
Yours in "il gran rifiuto",
Issodhos


Off topic, please return to the topic of this thread

Moderator and thread starter.
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