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#111418 - 05/15/09 12:18 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
Allen Owen Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 165
I dunno...I think most Austrian Economists would argue that there has not been a "Free Market" for a long time. Since 1913 at least, if not longer. They would argue that the current economic mess has been caused by the Fed and government interference on many levels. Yes, I am aware of the deregulation that went on and the repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act, and yes it was a stupid thing to do. They are also very strongly opposed to the bailouts of the financial institutions that made these risky loans and in a free market, they would not be recieving our tax money at all. They would be allowed to fail. I guess we are going to give socialism a try now. It seems to be what everyone wants...all that wonderful health care a la the USSR. Well, not socialism really. We are going to have a privately owned and operated government. I imagine health care will be even better under the new system. I consider myself a libertarian, but sometimes "Libertarians" go too far. Less government yes,but we need a little government so we can have roads, law enforcment, etc. I think what has been described thus far might be best described as "anarchy". It's of interest to me how easily people like to pigeon hole those who disagree with them and demonize what they believe. Every one does it, left, right, whatever. It gets downright hostile. Because of this, we are a doomed society. Like George Carlin, I'm just gonna munch popcorn and enjoy the show as we self destruct. \:\)
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#111419 - 05/15/09 12:27 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Allen Owen]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
And, I might add, Allen, I think most of the Austrian School economists are "free-market" ideologues with no concept of reality - that is, with little to contribute to a reasoned discussion. It seems obvious to virtually anyone who thinks - which clearly includes yourself - that some kind of "mixed" economy is required in a functioning society. It is the balance of the mix that is important, and as you note, purists of virtually every stripe are counterproductive.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#111421 - 05/15/09 12:33 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ron G. Offline
member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
What does YOTF have to do with it? Or do you have a different meaning for the term? If so, have the guts to spell it out.

It has nothing to do with organic chemistry. Note that the OTF are subscripted to the Y - you got this article as a consequence of most google-searches being case-blind.

My apologies for using the term w/o a background - I thought it had been used previously on RR.

Several years ago on our other shared forum, Issodhos introduced the YOTF rating as a gauge of the quality and elegance of an argument - usually the lead post in a thread - in engaging another poster - expressed as if one were rating an angler going after a particular species.

YOTF - Year of the Fish, a reference to the Chinese calendar, and the year it was introduced to us, IIRC.

rating: 0-10 - range indication increasing skill, elegance and sophistication in choice of lure, presentation and handling of the target once hooked.
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#111424 - 05/15/09 12:41 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: pdx rick]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: california rick
A

...and why is Issy being picked on? Leave him alone.


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#111426 - 05/15/09 12:46 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
Allen Owen Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 165
The title of the thread and what was posted in the initial salvo seemed rather angry and hostile. Yes, a mix is really the best way to go. There needs to be some kind of social safety net so that those who fall on hard times have a chance of getting back on their feet, but the possibility of abuse of this net is great. We have a generation or more who have been trained to rely on this net and not find a way to earn a living.

I have no answer for what to do about HMOs. They cost way too much and often deny treatment for things that are life threatening. I don't know what to do about it, aside from marching on the HMOs with pitchforks and torches.

I see what we are going to get for a govrnment can be best described as "corporatism", government by and for corporations. I seem to recall Mussolini said that was what he was instituting in Italy. That worked out very well. ;\)

Before everyone goes crazy and decides capitalism is the problem, remember that all these nice things we have here in the US are a result of capitalism. By nice things I mean iPods, computers of various types, big screen TV's, etc. Crap no-one really needs, but they are dang nice to have. \:\)
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#111427 - 05/15/09 12:47 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ron G.]
Mellowicious Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 9624
Loc: flyover country
Ron wrote
 Quote:
a gauge of the quality and elegance of an argument - usually the lead post in a thread - in engaging another poster - expressed as if one were rating an angler going after a particular species.


I think it is that concept - that a discussion or debate involves a lure (or perhaps bait) and getting hooked (or snared, perhaps) that some might find less than straightforward; most of us would rather be the fisher than the fished - even better, to converse without checking for lures.

Not to say that's what happens regularly around here. I just find it a poor metaphor for a good conversation. But that's just me.

(Never having been in formal debate, I am perhaps unaware of how appropriate this approach might be to such an environment - hence my "pussy-footing" around.)


Edited by Mellowicious (05/15/09 12:50 AM)
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#111434 - 05/15/09 01:07 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ron G.]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Originally Posted By: Ron G.
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
What does YOTF have to do with it? Or do you have a different meaning for the term? If so, have the guts to spell it out.

It has nothing to do with organic chemistry. Note that the OTF are subscripted to the Y - you got this article as a consequence of most google-searches being case-blind.

My apologies for using the term w/o a background - I thought it had been used previously on RR.

Several years ago on our other shared forum, Issodhos introduced the YOTF rating as a gauge of the quality and elegance of an argument - usually the lead post in a thread - in engaging another poster - expressed as if one were rating an angler going after a particular species.

YOTF - Year of the Fish, a reference to the Chinese calendar, and the year it was introduced to us, IIRC.

rating: 0-10 - range indication increasing skill, elegance and sophistication in choice of lure, presentation and handling of the target once hooked.


Thanks for rating the argument. Now that you have given your opinion about my argument, how about saying something substantive instead?

You know, on another thread a big deal was made about my calling into question the lead post and I got pretty well banged up about it.

Interesting that all either you or issodhos can post on this thread are critiques of my skills at arguing.



Edited by Phil Hoskins (05/15/09 04:31 AM)
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#111440 - 05/15/09 01:28 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Allen Owen]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
 Originally Posted By: Allen Owen

Before everyone goes crazy and decides capitalism is the problem, remember that all these nice things we have here in the US are a result of capitalism. By nice things I mean iPods, computers of various types, big screen TV's, etc. Crap no-one really needs, but they are dang nice to have. \:\)


--They're dang nice to have and they'd look a lot different and cost a helluva lot more for a helluva lot longer time if it hadn't been for one very much unappreciated LIBERAL idea:

The Space Race.

Had we not taken JFK up on his challenge to put a man on the moon by the close of the decade, NASA wouldn't have inspired the government to contribute the kind of heavy lifting needed to make development of 95 percent of today's microprocessor technology possible, which in turn made all the things you listed above possible.

Nope, our progress in that vein would have more closely resembled that of the Soviet Union, who were more than happy to continue relying on vacuum tube technology for decades afterward.

The internet, which is powered by trillions of microprocessors which themselves are the equivalent of trillions of trillions of transistors, which are the equivalent of trillions of trillions of vacuum tubes, would most likely outweigh the Earth itself in the sum of its aggregate computer parts and require the total energy output of The Sun.

And there would be no room left for human or animal habitation because each personal computer would require several acres worth of space.

And it would be fine for the libertarians, because "the market will develop this stuff when there is a demand for it", and
"private industry should not have to fund development without assured profit and government has no business making the rest of us pay for development either".

Microprocessor technology would be to Big Tech what increased fuel efficiency is to The Big Three automakers!
And we'd still be arguing about why the industry is so resistant to changing with the needs of the times, only we'd be arguing BY TELETYPE!

While watching our 21 inch RCA roundscreen "X-ray Special" TV sets with a color gamut somewhere between faded green and orange, 480 X 335 resolution and a tiny 3-inch monaural speaker.

Only the round screen would be "flat", so that it would "look" modern!

No thanks...I like it when government does the heavy lifting that benefits America as a whole across the board.
The only place I don't like it is when it gets injected into 7th century societies with the notion of "implanting Western values".
That has not worked out so well.

We'd be far better off if the radical Islamic states were still functioning in the vacuum tube era, and we had just let them keep their oil while we developed solar, nuclear, wind...
and fuel efficient diesel-electric hybrid vehicles.

Let THEM be the libertarians.
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#111442 - 05/15/09 01:33 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ron G. Offline
member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
So Ron, you admit it is all true. Thanks.

No, Phil, I admit to no such thing, any more than I'd admit to Issodhos being irresponsible in leading off with a Buchanan piece in his "roots" thread.

 Quote:
Or just don't have the stomach for a discussion?

I've done only a quick-read of it, however, I find that much of what is stated about the libertarian philosophy does not square with my own understanding of those principles, nor with the beliefs of the rather small number of libertarians with who I am acquainted.

I'm an [old-style | principled | paleo-] conservative, and that means I do share to a lot of their philosophy; however, I'm not sure if I understand all parts of it well enough to be defending it.

However, I perceive that the person you really want an exchange with is Issodhos, the one person here clearly identifiable as a libertarian; thus, the flame-bait title and my still-standing YOTF rating of 2.
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#111446 - 05/15/09 01:49 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ron G.]
Allen Owen Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 165
NASA built the space program with the help of: Private industry and Nazi engineers "liberated" from Germany. I've read some libertarians argue that the space program was a complete waste of time and money. I don't agree with that, since the USSR was a threat and there was no way the US could not get involved. It was a matter of national security at the time. Now, we are starting to see space become privatized somewhat. There is a company in California that has a contract to launch cargo rockets to the ISS and of course there is Bigelow Aerospace, the guys who wanna put a hotel in orbit. And Virgin Galactic as well. A mix is necessary and I think what is being described as libertarian is an example of some of the more extreme ideas that have come out of that philosophy. Not everyone who is libertarian falls into that mold.
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