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#111760 - 05/17/09 06:36 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
I very much do, Issodhos.
Basic education, health care and assistance to those unable to feed themselves is essential to a healthy and safer society in my opinion and I don't mind doing my part to pay for it.


Then you would not hesitate to voluntarilly contribute the money currently taken from you by government taxation, to be spent on these things you support, for those who could not afford them?
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111764 - 05/17/09 07:29 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
It would have been highly unlikely that a libertarian-influenced foreign policy of cultural exchange and trade with people of other nations (note that I wrote "with people", not "with nations")would have resulted in attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. If it had occurred anyway, then it would have been treated as a criminal action and handled accordingly. Intelligence ties and cooperation with other nations would have been used to identify and arrest those responsible. Though libertarianism opposes the initiation of aggression, it is not pacifistic. So, if a country would not turn over those identified as being responsible for such an attack and other attacks are anticipated, covert or overt military or paramilitary methods for bringing an end to such a thread would not be rejected.

Subsidies to businesses would cease, as would subsidies to many other entities (e.g., state and local governments, favored special interest groups, alternative energy hustles, etc.)

Such police-state entities like Homeland Security and other intrusive and suppressive policing actions meant to increase control over the citizenry would cease to exist under a libertarian-influenced society because there would be no government-caused need for it and the government would be too small for other power structures to enlist it for its own benefit(e.g., corporations).
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111778 - 05/17/09 08:36 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: issodhos

Subsidies to businesses would cease, as would subsidies to many other entities (e.g., state and local governments, favored special interest groups, alternative energy hustles, etc.)



It appears that Issodhos' sole safeguard against the tyranny of mega-business and money power reaching intolerable levels is to end government subsidies to them!

As if that would work!

The history of the past two centuries is filled with examples of the rise of money power in the absence of subsidies from government.

Abuse of power generally flows from money interests having undue influence in government, not vice versa!

Issodhos' libertarian program, as it now stands, would simply expand that influence and power to horrifying levels.

-
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#111779 - 05/17/09 08:39 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7504
Loc: Athens, Ga.
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
I very much do, Issodhos.
Basic education, health care and assistance to those unable to feed themselves is essential to a healthy and safer society in my opinion and I don't mind doing my part to pay for it.


Then you would not hesitate to voluntarilly contribute the money currently taken from you by government taxation, to be spent on these things you support, for those who could not afford them?
Yours,
Issodhos
Far be it from me to be suspicious, Isso but is this a trick question?
It seems to me that you're asking the same thing again.
Yes I do voluntarily pay taxes and wish more of them would go to pay for social programs I've mentioned.

Rich people who manage to avoid paying taxes piss me off so no I'm not going to advocate that I pay and others who don't care about the same things I do, don't.
I'm paying for plenty that I don't support...like the war. Like big bail outs.

But this thread is about what you believe in, not me. What is the Libertarian approach to these issues?
_________________________

"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."

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#111780 - 05/17/09 08:41 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
EmmaG Offline
member

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 1841
Loc: Florida Piney Woods
_________________________
"I believe very deeply that compassion is the route not only for the evolution of the full human being, but for the very survival of the human race." —The Dalai Lama

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#111781 - 05/17/09 08:43 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Quote:
No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos


Wouldn't the failure of a city such as New York or Los Angeles be pretty catastrophic? I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fail", but if you mean the breaking apart of the economic, legal and social system, allowing the "freedom" of all to participate in forming a new system, then the costs of failure could be incalculable.


In the manner in which the term is being used, neither New York nor Los Angeles are "alternative" communities, Phil. Nor am I speaking of a "breaking apart" of our current system. A libertarian-oriented nation would require gradual and incremental change of the society we currently endure. For example, using the current system to persuade enough citizens to support the decriminalization of recreational drug usage. That one action alone would be a boon to personal liberty -- reducing incarceration rates, destroyed lifes, police license to intrude, corruption, and huge reductions in penal, policing, and judiciary costs.


I did not see that you had limited your comment to alternative communities, so I wasn't attempting to raise a different topic. In the same sense that Los Angeles, etc, are failed cities, I think it could be said that every part of society but for a very few very small groupings -- and we would differ as to which those were -- is a failed community.

That is the nature of the human experience, but some failures have a bigger impact than others, and some with respect to more people. For example, for a commune of 20 or even 200 people fails, the impact is far less than if police, fire, health services, garbage, highway construction and repair, etc. all were allowed to fail in the major metro areas.

As for a gradual "freeing" of such a megalopolis, aren't the devils in the details? I think you might even get the Obama administration to use that mantra to cover their wealth manipulations.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Quote:
It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.

You will need to be more specific and more definitive as to what you mean here before I can hope to understand it enough to attempt and answer, Phil.
Yours,
Issodho

Well I do not want to give specific instances of what I consider to be appropriate "takings", because that would divert this thread into a discussion of those suggestions, and I am not interested in this thread going in that direction.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Ps. A side note: I think New York and LA, among other major cities (Detroit comes to mind), are already, and have for quite some time, been "failed" communities that actually would, relatively speaking, conform to Checkerboard's Somalia comparison. Many are just slow or unable to recognize it because they view such dysfunctional constructs as being normal.


I like to think of our world as the light/energy projected from an unknowable source in an infinity of directions, within which we are the temporary scrim of existence. In that sense of the ball rolling downhill, everything is a step ahead or behind failure, again, to me that is the essence of the human experience.

Now if you want to discuss specifically about the failure or non-failure of one or more cities, I would ask that it be done on a different thread. It is also possible to discuss such failures in the more abstract context as it might apply to the relative effectiveness of libertarian principles to deal with such failures.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#111782 - 05/17/09 08:43 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7504
Loc: Athens, Ga.
What is the Libertarian solution or way to deal with poverty and the problems it presents?
_________________________

"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."

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#111788 - 05/17/09 09:00 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: olyve
What is the Libertarian solution or way to deal with poverty and the problems it presents?


Perhaps the England of Charles Dickens provides a good model?

As I understand it, everyone takes care of their own problems.


Edited by Ardy (05/17/09 09:02 PM)
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#111798 - 05/17/09 10:33 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
I very much do, Issodhos.
Basic education, health care and assistance to those unable to feed themselves is essential to a healthy and safer society in my opinion and I don't mind doing my part to pay for it.


Then you would not hesitate to voluntarilly contribute the money currently taken from you by government taxation, to be spent on these things you support, for those who could not afford them?
Yours,
Issodhos
Far be it from me to be suspicious, Isso but is this a trick question?
It seems to me that you're asking the same thing again.
Yes I do voluntarily pay taxes and wish more of them would go to pay for social programs I've mentioned.

Rich people who manage to avoid paying taxes piss me off so no I'm not going to advocate that I pay and others who don't care about the same things I do, don't.
I'm paying for plenty that I don't support...like the war. Like big bail outs.


No, it is not a trick question, olyve, and no, you do not "voluntarilly" pay your taxes. You are not even given the opportunity to "voluntarily" pay your taxes. If you refuse to pay them you will be taken to court and ordered to pay them plus penalties and interest or go to jail.

In answering the question in the affirmative, you have indicated that you would contribute the same amount of money (or more, if enough of your tax burden were eliminated) to support assistance programs run by private charities that you consider worthy. Unless you consider yourself superior in compassion to others, there is no reason to think that others would not also provide financial and other assistance to those in need. Of course, you and others would find yourselves at liberty to freely choose what charitable programs of assistance you think worthy of your support based on what their purpose is and how efficient they are at delivering that support. In other words, a power co-opted by the state would be returned to its rightful source -- you.

As to paying for things you do not support, they are happening under the current system that you prefer to keep -- with minor tweaking by you as to who gets how much -- a collectivist-based system which continues to fail to improve the condition of those for whom you express concern. Indeed, the groups of people you reference seem to be increasing yearly.

It should also be noted that "bail outs" would not take place in a libertarian-influenced society, and elective wars would be difficult to launch because the monetary system (through the government created Federal Reserve, fiat money, and fractional banking) would no longer be an extention of the government for purposes of financing its power-accreting programs and wars. These are things that take place under the system you continue to support. It is time for change. Yes we can!!;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111799 - 05/17/09 10:59 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: numan
 Originally Posted By: issodhos

Subsidies to businesses would cease, as would subsidies to many other entities (e.g., state and local governments, favored special interest groups, alternative energy hustles, etc.)

It appears that Issodhos' sole safeguard against the tyranny of mega-business and money power reaching intolerable levels is to end government subsidies to them!


Eliminating subsudies to "mega-business" has nothing to do with engaging in self-indulgent schemes for controlling "money power", numan. It has to do with taking away a factor that distorts the market, provides unfair advantage to some businesses and industries, and puts into the hands of pols a tool for fostering corruption.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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