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#111803 - 05/17/09 09:54 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7504
Loc: Athens, Ga.
Point taken on the word "voluntarily", Isso.
I pay my taxes and don't cheat is what I meant.

Thanks for the explanation of how you would deal with social issues that I mentioned.
I'm wondering about the administration of education, health care and disability but I'm sure you want that to be in the private sector regardless so I won't go there.

The problems are too huge for charity now.
That's been tried and failed.
That is essentially what you had (Libertarianism) pre social programs of FDR.
I point to the Gilded Age and the Great Depression.

Have you ever read "The Grapes of Wrath?"

 Quote:
As to paying for things you do not support, they are happening under the current system that you prefer to keep -- with minor tweaking by you as to who gets how much -- a collectivist-based system which continues to fail to improve the condition of those for whom you express concern. Indeed, the groups of people you reference seem to be increasing yearly.
I agree it's happening now.
I do not prefer to keep the system we have now.
As an example....I prefer to stop the war and use the money to have Medicare from birth.
_________________________

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#111805 - 05/17/09 10:27 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Unless you consider yourself superior in compassion to others, there is no reason to think that others would not also provide financial and other assistance to those in need. Of course, you and others would find yourselves at liberty to freely choose what charitable programs of assistance you think worthy of your support based on what their purpose is and how efficient they are at delivering that support. In other words, a power co-opted by the state would be returned to its rightful source -- you.


Well, probably Olyve is a few leagues ahead of most in terms of voluntary giving. In fact, you have highlighted one of the problems with libertarian "solutions", they fail to take into account reality.

The people who can most afford to give things of value to those who have too little to survive or survive with dignity do not always share their wealth, do they? And if we take away the tax incentive, we might suspect that they would not be as voluntary as you predict.

Furthermore, charities discriminate. There is not an even spread of charities for all those who might have needs, and what is to be done of those left out because no charity is available or willing to assist?

It seems to me libertarians dodge the cold hard fact that many would simply be left to die. You cannot have a midway point on this. Either there is some government program to support those who would otherwise have none in your "voluntary charity" system or they are left to flounder and die. If there is even a small such government program, eventually it will morph into the "collectivism" you so demonize.

Furthermore, what is voluntary about employment. What a crock of crap that is. Do you really contend that workers, no matter how high up the ladder they are, actually volunteer to do what they have to do and volunteer to do it for, say, minimum wage? Do you contend that people voluntarily accept $15 per hour, or $10,000 per month even, rather than get paid what high rollers get? You live in a fantasy world if you think that is voluntary.

No, life is a series of dance steps to moderate between coercion and enjoyment, good and bad, things you like and much you don't. What I have read from those who post here and elsewhere in favor of libertarian ideals reminds me of the "clarity" with which I saw life as a young person. So many obvious answers and so few experiences to temper them.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
As to paying for things you do not support, they are happening under the current system that you prefer to keep -- with minor tweaking by you as to who gets how much -- a collectivist-based system which continues to fail to improve the condition of those for whom you express concern. Indeed, the groups of people you reference seem to be increasing yearly.

It should also be noted that "bail outs" would not take place in a libertarian-influenced society, and elective wars would be difficult to launch because the monetary system (through the government created Federal Reserve, fiat money, and fractional banking) would no longer be an extention of the government for purposes of financing its power-accreting programs and wars. These are things that take place under the system you continue to support. It is time for change. Yes we can!!;-)
Yours,
Issodhos


I take it that this post collectivist world would be populated by something other than humans. Else how can this world come about and who would inhabit it? Humans do not make intelligent decisions most of the time much less peaceable ones.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#111806 - 05/17/09 11:25 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much.


There is nothing in libertarian philosophy that would prevent a voluntary association of individuals engaging collectively in an activity. If you wish to have a gardening collective made up of individuals who freely chose to participate in it, your and their right to freedom of association would be recognized.
Yours,
Issodhos
i have read the histories of alternative communities, the true anarchists, and it seems that with each attempt, the groups involved in these experiments are undone by their desire to each have it his or her own way. in the end, they have all gone their own way. conversely, the community or collectivist experiments that seem to work more effectively are those in which common agreements are struck, a core principle is put in place that allows the communities to work in concert. within each system you work with a series of individuals, and personalities, and desires. but with a shared agreement - shall we call them laws? - a social contract, if you will, these groups coexist more effectively, imo.


No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos
perhaps i should be more clear.
 Quote:
Individualist anarchism comprises several traditions[38] which hold that "individual conscience and the pursuit of self-interest should not be constrained by any collective body or public authority."[39] Individualist anarchism is supportive of property being held privately, unlike the social/socialist/collectivist/communitarian wing which advocates common ownership.[40] Individualist anarchism has been espoused by individuals such as Max Stirner, William Godwin,[41] Henry David Thoreau,[42] Josiah Warren and Murray Rothbard.[43][44][45]
what i refer to originates from this tradition. please show me where this is not associated with the position you are advocating.
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sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#111813 - 05/18/09 01:58 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: olyve
The problems are too huge for charity now.
That's been tried and failed.
That is essentially what you had (Libertarianism) pre social programs of FDR.
I point to the Gilded Age and the Great Depression.


What has been tried and continues to fail is the collectivist system you support, olyve. You basically acknowledge its failure by stating that the "problems are too hugh" now. If the system of social programs and other government actions were working, there would be less of a problem now. And no, libertarianism was not how the nation's political system functioned during the periods you specify.

 Quote:
I agree it's happening now.
I do not prefer to keep the system we have now.
As an example....I prefer to stop the war and use the money to have Medicare from birth.


That is the system we have now. You simply want to redirect some of the money to your preferred programs -- or to be specific, direct the money of others to programs you support.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111815 - 05/18/09 02:17 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
That is the nature of the human experience, but some failures have a bigger impact than others, and some with respect to more people. For example, for a commune of 20 or even 200 people fails, the impact is far less than if police, fire, health services, garbage, highway construction and repair, etc. all were allowed to fail in the major metro areas.


As I wrote earlier, the shift to a libertarian-oriented system would have to be gradual and in increments. The system you have supported has done way too much damage to suddenly switch to a libertarian system. We are, of course, assuming that the damage done can even be undone.

 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.


 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Well I do not want to give specific instances of what I consider to be appropriate "takings", because that would divert this thread into a discussion of those suggestions, and I am not interested in this thread going in that direction.

Well then, you will need to explain what you are tip-toeing around in a way that I can understand, Phil.

 Quote:
Now if you want to discuss specifically about the failure or non-failure of one or more cities, I would ask that it be done on a different thread.

It was you, not me that injected failing cities into the thread, Phil.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111816 - 05/18/09 02:32 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
[/quote]perhaps i should be more clear.
 Quote:
Individualist anarchism comprises several traditions[38] which hold that "individual conscience and the pursuit of self-interest should not be constrained by any collective body or public authority."[39] Individualist anarchism is supportive of property being held privately, unlike the social/socialist/collectivist/communitarian wing which advocates common ownership.[40] Individualist anarchism has been espoused by individuals such as Max Stirner, William Godwin,[41] Henry David Thoreau,[42] Josiah Warren and Murray Rothbard.[43][44][45]
what i refer to originates from this tradition. please show me where this is not associated with the position you are advocating.

The forms of anarchism you list are systems where all governmental functions are replaced by private entities. That would include courts, police, firefighters, roads, etc. The libertarian philosophy I am strongly influenced by sees the proper function of government as securing and protecting the rights of the individual -- and that most definitely includes his property rights. This requires courts, police, and a military. This is where libertarianism in general parts way with various form of anarchistic philosophy. That does not mean that libertarian thought does not recognize the inherent threat of government. Will I have to continue to repeat this, 2wins?
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111817 - 05/18/09 02:37 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15318
Loc: Florida
Expecting everyone to suddenly begin voluntarily giving up funds is where things must be changed gradually. That is why I suggested the flat tax and/or sales tax. I honestly don't know that the human animal has it in him to give enough voluntarily to support even the small government you imagine Issodhos. That is the flaw I keep running into, and the stumbling block that may be impossible to get over. Why insist on purity though? The system you are speaking of is a libertarian based society, not a Libertarian Utopia. Since we are all greedy beasts at heart I'm afraid at least some gentle coercion will always be required to keep the government coffers full. They wont be able to just print more money whenever they need it any more. Maybe a few generations down the road even those props could be kicked out from under the government.
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#111823 - 05/18/09 04:17 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Well, probably Olyve is a few leagues ahead of most in terms of voluntary giving. In fact, you have highlighted one of the problems with libertarian "solutions", they fail to take into account reality.

What I see is a history of failure on the part of the reactionary collectivist system that you support, Phil, generating more and more people in need of assistance for the basics regardless of how much money and how many new government programs are put into place. I see a nation that is on the verge of economic collapse as a result of your increasingly mixed and reactionary system, and I see a society that has been alienated from itself by the prattle of social engineers, pseudo-economists, modern ‘liberal’ victimization peddlers, and panderers to hate-filled identity politics. Your system has failed time and time again and the only response to its failure is to do the same thing over again. It is obvious that resolving issues is not the goal of such a system, but rather the acquisition of power and control over people and their property for the same old reason – greed for that which is not theirs to accomplish by force what they would not be able to do through persuasion. Your system is an ancient enslaving system. That is the reality, and regardless of your apparently low opinion of humans, it’s time for a change.

As to the rest of your post, put it into the form of an understandable question and I will attempt to address it to your satisfaction (though I am not sure where the “what is voluntary about employment” came from).
Yours,
Issodhos


Edited by issodhos (05/18/09 04:18 AM)
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111824 - 05/18/09 04:33 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Expecting everyone to suddenly begin voluntarily giving up funds is where things must be changed gradually. That is why I suggested the flat tax and/or sales tax. I honestly don't know that the human animal has it in him to give enough voluntarily to support even the small government you imagine Issodhos.


The reduction in the monstrous size the government has grown into would take place before reductions in taxes would take place, Greger. As that happens, as programs and agencies are eliminated, and others are reduced (e.g., the military) the income tax and corporate tax will be reduced. the government itself would not be funded through voluntary contributions. Only private charities that take on the task of assisting those people in need of help would be voluntarilly funded by individual contributions. It is seriously wrong to portray Americans as not being willing to fund good programs. We do it everyday even while having extraordinary amounts of our earnings expropriated by the state in the form of taxes. The current political master/slave system, so popular for millinnia and supported so strongly by those whose greed leads them to use government force to separate others from their property, is a failure and needs to be replaced.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111825 - 05/18/09 04:39 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Expecting everyone to suddenly begin voluntarily giving up funds is where things must be changed gradually.


IMO this raises the fundamental problem of the "Commons"

The illustration is usually proposed that there is a village where all residents can graze their sheep on a common pasture . The situation tends mostly towards over use and destruction of the common resource as every villager will feel entitled to added sheep

The reverse of the situation would apply to needs for shared sacrifice. Generally, sacrifice which depends upon voluntarism will often come up short of the need for the inverse reason that the shared commons tends toward over use.



Edited by Ardy (05/18/09 04:45 AM)
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