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#111735 - 05/17/09 04:08 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much.


There is nothing in libertarian philosophy that would prevent a voluntary association of individuals engaging collectively in an activity. If you wish to have a gardening collective made up of individuals who freely chose to participate in it, your and their right to freedom of association would be recognized.
Yours,
Issodhos
i have read the histories of alternative communities, the true anarchists, and it seems that with each attempt, the groups involved in these experiments are undone by their desire to each have it his or her own way. in the end, they have all gone their own way. conversely, the community or collectivist experiments that seem to work more effectively are those in which common agreements are struck, a core principle is put in place that allows the communities to work in concert. within each system you work with a series of individuals, and personalities, and desires. but with a shared agreement - shall we call them laws? - a social contract, if you will, these groups coexist more effectively, imo.


No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111738 - 05/17/09 05:03 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Quote:
No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos


Wouldn't the failure of a city such as New York or Los Angeles be pretty catastrophic? I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fail", but if you mean the breaking apart of the economic, legal and social system, allowing the "freedom" of all to participate in forming a new system, then the costs of failure could be incalculable.

It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.

Now, obviously it is possible for humans to infect any system with their greed and avarice, but this balancing necessarily is imprecise and exactly the reason for the balanced design of the Constitutional framers. It is all imperfect and always will be.

My "reasonable" taking would maybe be stealing to you. I can get that, and I appreciate engaging with you in this discussion.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#111739 - 05/17/09 05:13 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Schlack]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
[quote=Schlack]
how would common problems be resolved?

You will have to be more specific as to what you mean by "common problems".

how would the free market be kept free from being distorted? Surely any structures or mechanisms created in this new society would dsitort the market.

Distortions of the market are those acts that cause a systemic misallocation of resources or an attempted abrogation of economic laws. Occasional or isolated distortions are going to happen in the imperfect world we live in. Let us not pretend that free markets would eliminate all bumps and dips in the economy, or that advocates of free markets claim it would.

how would say the route of a road or the location of a hospital be decided upon?

A hospital would negotiate with a landowner for a location it would like. We basically have roads to everywhere, today. If another road is wanted, its route could be purchased from willing sellers.

How would such a society protect itself?

Protect itself from what?

How would its laws (however few) be enforced? - in essence how would the violence of the state be managed.

There would still be a judiciary and there would still be a policing force. The two are not incompatible with libertarian political philosophy. Because the state is violence, anarchists advocate its complete elimination on the belief that its violence cannot be long restrained. Libertarians seek to put more shackles on it in the hope that its violence can be reduced from its current near totalitarian levels. One step for doing so is stripping the state of its monetary monopoly. Another is by decriminalizing most acts that do not apply to the violation of individual and property rights. Another is disbanding agencies such as the DEA, BATF, IRS, and greatly reducing what police forces can and cannot do.


On what basis would limited resources be distributed?

Be more specific.


How would the weak/defenceless/destitute people be catered for?

What do you mean by, "catered for"?

Im would also be very interested in how people who wish to have democratic involvement in the economy, in how decisions are made etc are to be reconciled with this new society without it being forced upon them.

What do you mean by "democratic involvement in the economy"? What specifically do you think would be forced on us?
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111744 - 05/17/09 12:26 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15479
Loc: Florida
Thanks, Issodhos, for attempting to answer some of the questions.
It appears that the difference between the current political philosophy infecting our governing body and the actual nuts and bolts operation of a governing body influenced by Libertarianism wouldn't really be that great. Depending on how far back in our current history a hypothetical swing towards Libertarianism occurred, the Sept 11 attack probably never would have happened because our government wouldn't have meddled so much in other governments to create the animosity responsible for the attack.
If the attack did occur, rather than starting two useless wars in a mockery of retributive justice, we would have appealed to the international community to help us bring these criminals to justice. The monolithic and ridiculous Homeland Security Boondoggle would never have been created, the wars would not have sapped the economy, airports would operate as they were intended and life would be ticking along marvelously.

Taxation, very obviously is a necessity required for government to operate and infrastructure to be built and maintained. A simple flat tax would probably replace the huge and incomprehensible tax code we have now. All those thousands of pages replaced with this: "All profits private or business shall be taxed at a rate of 10%" No exemptions no "non profits' no nothing. The same for everyone. A 1% sales tax might also be factored in, I'm not trying to guess at an ultimate solution, simply to posit a few examples.

These are visions of my own American Quasi-Utopia, I don't know if they fit within the paradigms of Libertarianism but I would like to see some sort of sensible ism adopted to achieve positive goals rather than the somewhat negative consequences of almost everything achieved by federal government in the last few decades.

Shlack, has asked how the poor, old, or sick might be cared for, once again I'm guessing but our smaller government, no longer encumbered with massive, complicated, and unnecessary
legislation, would establish a "poverty level" and subsidize those unable (not unwilling) to achieve it. Subsidizing Multi billion dollar multi national corporations would be a thing of the past. Lobbying for legislation that would give one group of individuals an advantage over another group of individuals would also be a thing of the past.

Oh Crap, is Libertarianism Making me stupid?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#111752 - 05/17/09 04:52 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: olyve
He has seen one Hummer in the 6 years since I have known her.


Perhaps he needs a girlfriend.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111753 - 05/17/09 04:55 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111754 - 05/17/09 05:39 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Quote:
No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.
Yours,
Issodhos


Wouldn't the failure of a city such as New York or Los Angeles be pretty catastrophic? I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fail", but if you mean the breaking apart of the economic, legal and social system, allowing the "freedom" of all to participate in forming a new system, then the costs of failure could be incalculable.


In the manner in which the term is being used, neither New York nor Los Angeles are "alternative" communities, Phil. Nor am I speaking of a "breaking apart" of our current system. A libertarian-oriented nation would require gradual and incremental change of the society we currently endure. For example, using the current system to persuade enough citizens to support the decriminalization of recreational drug usage. That one action alone would be a boon to personal liberty -- reducing incarceration rates, destroyed lifes, police license to intrude, corruption, and huge reductions in penal, policing, and judiciary costs.



 Quote:
It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.

You will need to be more specific and more definitive as to what you mean here before I can hope to understand it enough to attempt and answer, Phil.
Yours,
Issodhos
Ps. A side note: I think New York and LA, among other major cities (Detroit comes to mind), are already, and have for quite some time, been "failed" communities that actually would, relatively speaking, conform to Checkerboard's Somalia comparison. Many are just slow or unable to recognize it because they view such dysfunctional constructs as being normal.
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111756 - 05/17/09 05:47 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7504
Loc: Athens, Ga.
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
He has seen one Hummer in the 6 years since I have known her.


Perhaps he needs a girlfriend.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________

"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."

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#111757 - 05/17/09 06:09 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7504
Loc: Athens, Ga.
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: olyve
what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)?


Do you support your taxes going to pay for these items, olyve?
Yours,
Issodhos
I very much do, Issodhos.
Basic education, health care and assistance to those unable to feed themselves is essential to a healthy and safer society in my opinion and I don't mind doing my part to pay for it.

I don't support a flat tax like Greger is suggesting though. That is a regressive tax.

But yes I do support paying taxes proportionate to my income though for the social services that I mentioned. I don't believe that can be done in the private sector adequately and affordable.
I think that's already been proven.

What is the Libertarian position on those issues...education, health care and disabled people?
_________________________

"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."

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#111758 - 05/17/09 06:15 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
-

It has occasionally passed through my mind that at least some so-called "Libertarians" are just shills for big money and power.

I have yet to come across a Libertarian who has dealt seriously with the power of mega-corporations and other sources of the tyranny of big money, which would inevitably arise in the society they are proposing.

I am sure that Issodhos has a healthy contempt for utopianism, but Libertarianism sure looks like utopianism to me; it is just too simple, neat and Bentham-esque. The real world is much more complex than the simplistic solutions which Libertarianism allow for --- not to mention the complexity of human beings, and their talent for getting around and corrupting the neat paradigms of social reformers.

-
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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