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#111376 - 05/14/09 09:43 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: AustinRanter]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
AustinRanter, I did not mention any party. As issodhos has correctly pointed out, libertarianism is quite a different thing from the Libertarian party.

I call into question the entire philosophical/political underpinnings of the libertarians.
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

#111383 - 05/14/09 10:08 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Schlack Offline

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9718
Loc: Ireland
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)

#111385 - 05/14/09 10:20 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
took an existentialism class in college. mostly for grins. asked the prof one day, "if existentialists believe that life has no meaning, then why do we have a class to study it?" The answer, of course, was mumbo jumbo. In that same vein, a true "libertarian" if such a person existed would not be a libertarian; too structured.
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

#111400 - 05/14/09 11:27 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
2wins Offline

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Feel free to contribute your thoughts, 2wins.
well, aside from my sarcastic post earlier, my thoughts are simply that i find libertarians, libertarianism, ayn randites and the like to be boring and lacking in original thought insofar as political ideas are concerned. as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much. i think schlack's cartoon says a great deal about the issue.
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

#111401 - 05/14/09 11:35 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
Ron G. Offline

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
Without the benefit of talking to Phil, it seems to me that while this can be construed as baiting, it is out in the open, up front and establishes a clear invitation to debate Phil's position...

I don't mind in the least whether or not it's bait, 2wins, nor do I imagine that the "target species" is overly concerned. All I was doing was pointing out that, after an initial fast-read, I thought it was low-quality bait and not particularly well played.

Unlike Iss, Phil seems to be making no bones about his position. I know you will defend Iss to the core, but his rhetoric is full of traps and pitfalls.

I disagree, 2wins, as I do not find his writing(s) to present any kind of minefield provided one reads carefully and pays attention to exactly what has been said. He is very precise in his meanings, and any problems generally arise because someone has tried to reword or redefine what he has actually said.

As to defending him, as I said on the "roots" thread, I do not feel any obligation to defend him nor do I feel that he needs defending. My concern with that thread was that I knew his position was being misrepresented or misinterpreted because of the conniption over the Buchanan article. As it turns out, I believe that - per Issodhos' reiteration late yesterday of the reason and the intention behind the buchanan article - I was 115% correct.

That said, in reference to another of your posts on a different thread, I am sure that Iss is quite a poet indeed.

Yes, he is. He often brings other poets and - unfortunately, all too rarely - some of his own work to our other shared forum.
Life should be led like a cavalry charge - Theodore Roosevelt

#111403 - 05/14/09 10:59 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17303
Loc: Florida
Actually I think libertarians have a way of making the rest of us look stupid. We aren't. It's a little like Schrodinger's cat but it's a game played with holes and pegs, the libertarian, (usually Issodhos), presents us with a round peg and a round hole, it looks like an easy fit so we insert it as per the instructions, the peg immediately turns square! If we instead attempt to insert it into the square hole then suddenly the square hole is round. While Schrodinger's Cat is simultaneously alive and dead our pegs are simultaneously round and square when we try to fit them to the libertarian equation whose holes are equally simultaneously square and round in a perfectly opposite sequence. We non-libertarians are endlessly frustrated by the game while the libertarian (usually Issodhos;)) is endlessly entertained.
We gnash teeth, he crunches popcorn, Schrodinger's cat is dead and alive.
Libertarianism is a good theory with one small fatal flaw(in my opinion) It can't work unless everyone is identical. If everyone in the world were exactly like Isshodos it would be a perfect world. Failing that the cat is alive or dead but can never be both. That only works for libertarians, for instance, if everyone in the world was like me it would be a friggin mess.
Come to think of it everyone in the world is a lot like me and it's a friggin mess.
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

#111404 - 05/14/09 11:06 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: AustinRanter]
pdx rick Offline

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43330
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Are some Ranters having a bad hair day?

My understanding of Libertarianism is that "they" are fiscally conservative and socially librul.

That's a simplistic understanding of Libertarianism, but I like those core values that "they" have.

...and why is Issy being picked on? Leave him alone.
Contrarian, extraordinaire

#111411 - 05/14/09 11:33 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California no no no.
A libertarian is a person who states that "government is best that governs least".

It's a fine notion, until you want roads, education, civil infrastructure, law enforcement, mail delivery, and in this day and age of 1700 dollar a day bed rates, HEALTH CARE for people who cannot afford the 700 dollar a month family health insurance from an HMO that will invariably reject your claim the second you come down with a serious illness which will put your life in jeopardy.

You will die a libertarian death "because the market said so", or because "health care corporations are in business to make money".

In fact, the phrase "are in business to make money" is a catch all used to defend all manner of libertarian and conservative rapine alike.

Fred Reed put it so beautifully in
when he said:

(5) A lack of esthetic sensitivity. Where other people see a towering redwood forest as a place of contemplation, of solemn ancient beauty and God’s handiwork, the conservative (of the type I am talking about) sees timber suitable for making weatherproof decks for yuppies (at a good profit).

The only difference between the libertarian and the conservative is that the conservative will take you to court while the libertarian will either stand there and wait for the market to speak for him or he might pipe up and tell you that you're infringing on the conservative's individualism, as well as their rights as a juristic person, of course.

And he'll do it from high atop his mountain valhalla.
Want roads? Let the free market provide them.
Want schools?
Don't tax me, find a business that will open one to train little Johnny to install widgets. Maybe they'll throw in some history and arithmetic and a sack lunch, for a nice profit of course.

Dammit, why should he have to pay taxes for your little Johnny's school when he has no kids of his own?
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD

#111415 - 05/14/09 11:49 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ron G.]
2wins Offline

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
Loc: Barely above Sea Level

I disagree, 2wins, as I do not find his writing(s) to present any kind of minefield provided one reads carefully and pays attention to exactly what has been said. He is very precise in his meanings, and any problems generally arise because someone has tried to reword or redefine what he has actually said.

we shall have to agree to disagree on that one, ron. i think there is a fine game of cat and mouse being played, for the most part. as for the roots thread, well i didn't have any issues with iss on that, and took it at face value. rarely do i do that with him, however. i think greger's analogy above sums it up for me. that said, perhaps i should return to my former sig line, "to each his own, molly said as she kissed the cow."
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

#111417 - 05/15/09 12:06 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
NW Ponderer Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17429
I have not participated in the "roots" thread, so I don't understand the references. I haven't caught up with the original references here, but I have a general disdain for "libertarian" thought as it is practiced, although I understand, and even endorse, the underlying premise that the default state of being is to be left alone. Our government is generally aligned with that premise, but it is the unwillingness to allow that there are significant exceptions to the underlying premise that makes modern "libertarianism" so internally logically inconsistent... or, phrased differently, stupid.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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