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#112077 - 05/20/09 04:35 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Snargle]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15461
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Issodhos

Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.

 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.

 Originally Posted By: Issodhos
Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood

 Originally Posted By: Loganrbt
Really? Have you told all the farmers in the Midwest who make livings good enough to send their kids to college and take a vacation every winter? I think they'll be surprised to learn they are not successful!

 Originally Posted By: Snargle

The fabulously productive, successful, and affluent Amish farmers of Central Pennsylvania would take extreme umbrage at that statement. Their biggest challenge is not the productivity of their land, but the lack of available acreage for their multitudinous offspring. New Amish settlements are springing up all over other parts of PA, in addition to other states with available agricultural land.


Guys, I think isso was making a joke when he wrote that?


Edited by Greger (05/20/09 04:40 PM)
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#112078 - 05/20/09 04:59 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15461
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: numan
In the matter of fishing, for example, what would be effective is to use the totalitarian power of the state to forbid all fishing in the sea for the next hundred years, and to blow any fishing boat out of the water if it attempts to contravene the prohibition.

It would take measures that strong in order to have the oceans regain their former productive equilibrium --- though so much damage has been done already, it is doubtful that it would be the same equilibrium they had before. Some things are lost forever, and cannot be regained.

What is quite certain is that the longer we wait to use totalitarian force to restore the oceans, the worse the final outcome will be.

Florida has had considerable luck since the mid 19th century leasing areas of ocean bottom for oyster production. The state has also had some fair success with the totalitarian approach when the net ban went into effect on the west coast. No one had to be "blown out of the water" to enforce the new regulations and commercial fishermen found other means to take various species from the gulf for profit. The Redfish and Speckled Trout numbers increased drastically within a very short span of time.
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#112079 - 05/20/09 05:01 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Snargle]
Ron G. Offline
member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
 Originally Posted By: Snargle
...
The fabulously productive, successful, and affluent Amish farmers of Central Pennsylvania would take extreme umbrage at that statement.

I do believe that Issodhos was indulging in a bit of sarcasm in that statement. Elsewhere, he has on occasion cited the Amish and the Mennoites as examples of people living in their own communities, practicing a largely agragrarian life, generally not being pests to others, and being largely anarchical in their activities.

 Quote:
Their biggest challenge is not the productivity of their land, but the lack of available acreage for their multitudinous offspring. New Amish settlements are springing up all over other parts of PA, in addition to other states with available agricultural land.

Damn religious fanatics! Living in a dream world! Perhaps they need to be segregated from other people and monitored by the more rational among us, and possibly be given psychiatric treatment - for their own good, of course.


Edited by Ron G. (05/20/09 05:09 PM)
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#112126 - 05/21/09 01:17 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I had an interesting discussion with my brother, who is a libertarian, this morning that included fishing, the "fair use" doctrine and property rights. (Where he and I have always agreed is that the primary role of government is to prevent individuals from interfering with the interests of other individuals... we just disagree over means, methods and degrees.)


I disagree with both you and your brother, NWP. If two applicants are after the same job and one applicant arrives a half hour earlier than he and the other is supposed to arrive and, as a result, gets the job, he has interfered with the interests of the other applicant. How does the government have any role in such an action? Two people are at an auction and are bidding on the same item for separate clients. One out-bids the other, directly interfering with the business interests of the other. How does the government have any role in such an action? Two women are competing with each other to win the affections and eventual marriage of an eligible man. One of the women bests the other woman and, in so doing, interferes with the other’s interests. How does the government have any role in such an action? I’m going to have to stick to the idea that the primary role of the government is securing and protecting the rights of the individual – not delving about and intruding upon his “interests".

But, I do agree with you that a “Failure of the premise requires failure of the conclusion.” I would say that your premise fails upon the mistaken belief that the state preceded property, resulting in the mistaken conclusion that property and state are inextricably linked.:-)
Yours in exploration,
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112127 - 05/21/09 01:19 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Greger
 Originally Posted By: Issodhos

Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.

 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.

 Originally Posted By: Issodhos
Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood

 Originally Posted By: Loganrbt
Really? Have you told all the farmers in the Midwest who make livings good enough to send their kids to college and take a vacation every winter? I think they'll be surprised to learn they are not successful!

 Originally Posted By: Snargle

The fabulously productive, successful, and affluent Amish farmers of Central Pennsylvania would take extreme umbrage at that statement. Their biggest challenge is not the productivity of their land, but the lack of available acreage for their multitudinous offspring. New Amish settlements are springing up all over other parts of PA, in addition to other states with available agricultural land.


Guys, I think isso was making a joke when he wrote that?


You and Ron are spot on, Greger. It was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112128 - 05/21/09 01:29 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


I think the only rights that can be "common" to all are those unalienable individual rights held by each and every person. Beyond that, I think the term "common rights" has the tincture of group 'rights' which is also a fiction.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112130 - 05/21/09 01:38 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: numan
-

I have driven over much of the US and seen farm land and range land showing the obvious signs of degradation and over-use. People almost always try to get more out of their property than it can sustain over the long term.


There is no doubt that one can find examples of neglect of privately owned properties, but (and I too have driven, thumbed, and walked back and forth across America), you might want to question how much of that land, especially in the central and western states, is owned by the federal government and leased at subsidized rates to ranchers and others, none of whom have a vested interest or familial interest in protecting or maintaining it. Back to Ardy's Commons, again.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112131 - 05/21/09 01:51 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Ardy
And.... the reality is that fish swim. If other fisherman do not have the same management practices, then all the fish will be gone for everyone.


Yes they do, Ardy. And that is one reason I mentioned migratory fish in my response to Schlack. All fish, and especially migratory fish (e.g., Blues) follow their food chains. The fisherman of a section of fishing grounds who specializes in migratory fish would have every incentive to ensure that his section has a healthy cross-section of that food chain that draws his target fish. Any fisherman who abuses the ecology of his section would soon be out of business and, hopefully, the smarter fellow will buy the abused section at its degraded value and return it to profitability. If nothing else, it is in his self-interest to do so, yet others benefit.
Yours with a sudden hankering for seared tuna in a Sicilian caper marinade,
Yours,
Issodhos


Edited by issodhos (05/21/09 01:52 AM)
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112143 - 05/21/09 05:21 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


I think the only rights that can be "common" to all are those unalienable individual rights held by each and every person. Beyond that, I think the term "common rights" has the tincture of group 'rights' which is also a fiction.
Yours,
Issodhos


Well, of course, issodhos, how could I ever forget that you alone determine such matters? Maybe you have some other support for that claim, which by the way, completely negates the Constitution.
_________________________
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#112145 - 05/21/09 09:16 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
Only unalienable rights I have seen listed are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". Is there another list somewhere that I've not seen?

Assuming that is the list, then it is unconstitutional to carry out the death penalty or to order a soldier/sailor/airman into combat where life may end prematurely; similarly unconstitutional to incarcerate even the most vicious serial killer, and unconstitutional to protect children from child molesters.

That is an amazing world! If that's what a libertarian is, I'm glad we have very few of them near the seat(s) of power!
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"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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