Current Topics
Will Trump Debate a Democrat?
by Hamish Howl
32 minutes 32 seconds ago
The Impeachment of Donald trump
by Hamish Howl
33 minutes 23 seconds ago
And we're off and running!
by chunkstyle
Today at 03:35 PM
RoundTable for Fall 2019
by Jeffery J. Haas
Today at 05:13 AM
FISA Inspector General Horowitz
by Jeffery J. Haas
Today at 02:21 AM
Media and Responsibility
by Jeffery J. Haas
Today at 01:06 AM
All or Nothing OR My Way or the Highway
by Jeffery J. Haas
Today at 12:49 AM
just arrived
by pondering_it_all
Today at 12:36 AM
Pacific Northwest Weather
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 11:50 PM
ocean cleanup
by jgw
Yesterday at 08:49 PM
Dear last-ditch hardcore Trump Nation
by Greger
12/11/19 05:39 PM
High tech comedy classic
by pondering_it_all
12/11/19 10:20 AM
Long overdue Satirizing the corporate news media
by chunkstyle
12/11/19 04:59 AM
Organic Socialism
by logtroll
12/11/19 01:36 AM
Global warming predictions
by logtroll
12/10/19 10:20 PM
The Departed - 2019
by pondering_it_all
12/09/19 09:00 PM
Remember Pearl Harbor
by Greger
12/09/19 07:56 PM
A Southerner Moves up North
by Greger
12/09/19 05:59 PM
Duncan Hunter takes a dive.
by pondering_it_all
12/09/19 07:07 AM
Bloomberg: Xi Jinping is not a dictator
by Jeffery J. Haas
12/07/19 06:35 AM
Forum Stats
6286 Members
59 Forums
16758 Topics
292901 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 19 of 29 < 1 2 ... 17 18 19 20 21 ... 28 29 >
Topic Options
#112270 - 05/22/09 01:38 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: loganrbt
Only unalienable rights I have seen listed are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". Is there another list somewhere that I've not seen?


If you are interested in the subject, we did a couple of threads a while back on Rights. I doubt that Phil intended to have the thread drift away from the claim that "libertarianism makes you stupid" (i.e., Issodhos is stupid:-)). Here are a couple of links:
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Allow me to first repeat, with emphasis added, what I have previously written, which was, “My view is that rights are inalienable and pre-exist the state and also pre-exist any agreement made among men to recognize them.” Please note that I did not write that they pre-existed man. I also wrote that “rights are integral to the human mind” which is to say they are integral to man. They are essential to the completeness of man and reflect the nature of man, not nature in general, not ‘natural’ man, but the nature of man.

Do Individual Rights Exist?
and
Individual Rights vs Group claims
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s As Greger commented, "those three cover a lot of ground." And are you familiar with the IX Amendment?
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

Top
#112271 - 05/22/09 01:56 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: loganrbt
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


Going down a different road: if the rights are individual rights, then why do we need (or want) a state to secure them? Let them hire their own security.


Anarcho-capitalists make a case for doing just that, loganrbt. But, I do not think there are any anarcho-capitalists in the forum to defend that position.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

Top
#112272 - 05/22/09 01:59 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
 Originally Posted By: Ardy

IMO it is worthwhile to consider why and how governments came into being. That is, how did primitive human groupings develop the institution of "government".

IMO, the examination of that question will show that government did not develop as a means to secure rights. And, if that is the case, it seems logically problematical to propose that this function is the EXCLUSIVE justification for the existence of the institution of government.
i'll bite on this. this brings to mind hunter/gatherers. my first thought here is that they would have organized, on some level, to ensure the group was fed and kept safe from the elements. thus, a division of labor was introduced, each person accepting a job that would assist in benefiting the whole.


As Phil also said... Guns, Germs and Steel makes an excellent reference for the dynamics underlying the development of nations.

In a nutshell... hunter gatherer societies have never developed large nations. You do not get to large nations until societies make the transition to agricultural societies. These primitive societies are operated by some sort of elite... kings, priests, chiefs, etc.

Fundamentally the king wants less internal conflict... in order to maximize the wealth and power of his domain. The king is less concerned about establishing individual rights and property ownership except as it may help his objectives of increased power.

Generally, smaller , less centralized social groups are conquered by larger social groups... and those larger social groups act sort of like black holes that suck in all the small groups around them

Large social groups (like the roman empire) have little interest in individual rights except as they may be expedient. The main an unconditional foundation of these large social groups is to maintain and enrich the ruling class/hierarchy. Anyone who gets in the way of that objective is disposed of.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

Top
#112273 - 05/22/09 02:00 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: loganrbt


There certainly are some that argue there are such rights; descended from natural law, the flowery language of the Declaration of Independence (which, as a footnote, has no legal standing; it is mere puffery announcing the intent to hold a revolution), or some other source.


One is just a bit of puffery, and the other is just a g*ddam* piece of paper, wot?;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

Top
#112277 - 05/22/09 02:46 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The structure then follows from that principle "e pluribus unum" - from the many, one. Libertarianism is, quite directly, very "un"-constitutional, as it places the interests of individuals over that of the collective whole. Ooops... there's that "collective" word again....


You do realize, do you not, NW Ponderer, that "e pluribus unum" simply means "out of many states, one nation" -- and later repositioned to mean "out of many immigrating peoples, a single people?" Why attempt to falsely color it as a call for a sociopolitical collective?

Libertarianism recognizes the natural rights of the individual, recognizes that the individual, not the state, is the owner of his person, and that valid governments are instituted among men to secure those rights. "Interests" are another matter.
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. Your premise is again false.
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

Top
#112281 - 05/22/09 03:22 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42127
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
...Your system has failed time and time again and the only response to its failure is to do the same thing over again.

Isn't that the definition of insanity? To perform the task the same way over and over again and expect different results each time the task is repeated.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#112283 - 05/22/09 03:28 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: pdx rick]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: california rick
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
...Your system has failed time and time again and the only response to its failure is to do the same thing over again.

Isn't that the definition of insanity? To perform the task the same way over and over again and expect different results each time the task is repeated.


So I have been told, rick. Of course, it could simply be a reactionary need on the part of some to try to conserve the past. Hmmm..... kinda conservative, wot?:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

Top
#112284 - 05/22/09 04:22 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17185
You do realize, Issodhos, that e pluribus unum is Latin, no? It has a longer lineage than its appearance on the great seal, and has multiple meanings - one of which is that the collection of States created the Union (hence the name, "United States"). It was also a popular phrase in connection with discussion of commonwealths, as I tried to point out earlier, as it implied that the power of the State came from its people, not from on high or based upon birthright. e pluribus unum At the time this was a pretty radical concept. I suppose you haven't spent much time on the Constitution, have you - its structure and purpose? Oh, but discussion of that substantive portion of my earlier post would detract from the distraction of focusing on semantics, wouldn't it?

"Rights" are merely interests that have gained sufficient importance to be protected by legal strictures - oh, which means protected by the State. Inconvenient, that. The idea that they exist independent of any sort of structure is a logical impossibility, but an aspirational and rhetorical point that inspired the Enlightenment thinkers, and conceptually something I have always honored. It is an important touchstone concept for the balancing of interests between individuals, and between individuals and "the people." Unfortunately in the hands of libertarians, the concept "natural rights" tends to devolve into a meaningless muddle of logical impossibility, as was noted by many earlier posts. Stripped of nuance and context "rights" tend to become rather hollow and ephemeral. It is akin to trying to take the Bible as literal truth, and leads down the same rabbit hole of discongruity. (How does one define a "right," for example, without reference to an authority? It's one of those "nice to have" concepts if it isn't recognized and protected. By whom? Oops, haring off into substance again, aren't I? Bad habit, that.)

I'm getting the impression, Issdhos, that you prefer to delve into semantics and ignore the substance, though. It is a disappointing habit. I will leave you to that. (I also suspect you never read the articles from the first post, but it is just a guess on my part.)

By the way, disagreement does not make a premise "false" - it just means you don't like, or didn't understand it. What I actually said was, "Failure of the premise requires failure of the conclusion."
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#112297 - 05/22/09 09:37 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15801
Loc: Florida
NWP, In checking your link and expecting a treatise on the Latin roots and meanings of e pluribus unum I find instead a salad recipe, or actually e pluribus unus a brief discussion of a poem describing a salad recipe. This salad doesn't sound particularly appetizing but by definition comes, I think closer to the truth than either you or Issodhos have come in the literal meaning of the phrase. Perhaps I oversimplify when I leave out commonwealth and immigrants and all the other semantics that can be tied to the phrase and suggest that "out of many, one" is what e pluribus unum means, simply a synonym for United. The phrase can be used to describe many things but I think it really has only one meaning.
Just as the cheese and herbs join together to become one the States did the same, their many flavors and colours melding into a single ball with it's own particular flavour.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#112302 - 05/22/09 11:15 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Issodhos is stupid:-)).




Is paranoia setting in?
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

Top
Page 19 of 29 < 1 2 ... 17 18 19 20 21 ... 28 29 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 63 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Keridan, Chagos, Integritas, Ashevajak, Hamish Howl
6286 Registered Users
A2