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#112485 - 05/23/09 04:37 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: Greger
No one has come close to convincing me that Libertarianism can't work though, at least as well as Communism,

That is not a high bar for success. But, for purpose of discussion, I will agree that libertarianism will work approximately as well as communism.
 Quote:

Issodhos offers a possible, unusual(probably unworkable) solution but an inability to communicate, or accept his vision long enough to think it through without getting angry or frustrated makes it nearly impossible to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of Government under Libertarian Leadership.

Not Liberal, not Conservative, but something altogether different.


Gregor...
IMO you have stumbled upon what is IMO the crux of the discussion. IMO Libertarianism does not provide a solid basis for governance because it is fundamentally oppositional in nature. While it "appears" to be for something, IMO it is fundamentally defined by it's opposition to the various infringements of rights. As such, libertarianism can critique the flaws of any existing system... and lament that a perfect government would be one which eliminates those flaws.

People have tried to create various sorts of Utopian communities. These have had varying degrees of success and failure. But I am not aware that there has even been an attempt to create a Utopian libertarian community. I think this is no accident.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#112490 - 05/23/09 05:20 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Once again it comes down to throwing insults.

Flip the coin often enough and you find it has two sides. Though your premise is flawed.
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112499 - 05/23/09 05:42 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Communism? Not a high bar? How much chit you got in your house that says "made in china"? Who does your government borrow money from when they can't run the printing presses fast enough? That would be Communist China. I know, I know it's not really a communist utopia, but it seems to work ok. It's still a Communist Influenced Society, and so, without further ado, you admit a Libertarian Influenced Society might work at least as well as China.

That's really just an aside though, Ardy, my real question is this:
What makes you think I stumbled? I've been over that bridge before and tried to spook the troll out. It's not Libertarianism that's confrontational it's the Libertarians themselves.

The United States itself is a Libertarian Utopia. The Land of Liberty! Freedom and Justice for all! The Statue of Liberty, The Liberty Bell, the Liberty Half Dollar, we are a society based on Liberty Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, The Bill of Rights. the right to bear arms the right to remain silent. Send us your poor, your tired. your huddled masses yearning to be free!

Liberty: 1: the quality or state of being free: a: the power to do as one pleases b: freedom from physical restraint c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e: the power of choice

Libertarianism is a term used by a broad spectrum[1] of political philosophies which seek to maximize individual liberty[2], which they see as requiring minimization of state power over individuals' personal and economic decisions

The word libertarian is an antonym of authoritarian.

Oh nevermind, I'm probably barking up the wrong tree.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#112504 - 05/23/09 05:53 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
Phil,
They Shoot Horsed, Don't They? Is it time for this thread to die? Just wondering. It is looking like a very old Michael Sarrazin flick.
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112509 - 05/23/09 06:07 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: loganrbt

Phil,
They Shoot Horsed, Don't They? Is it time for this thread to die? Just wondering.



It's a dead horse that people just love to beat! ;\)

-
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#112517 - 05/23/09 07:06 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Is it time for this thread to die?

You may feel free to stop reading and posting on this thread at any time and considering it dead. Personally, I've had a lot of fun here, I've enjoyed the various views from all sides and I've tried to point out a few weaknesses in a few proclamations. I've made some points and conceded some points. All in all I believe it's been a good thread and a lively discussion.

Yours in Liberty;)
Greger
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#112520 - 05/23/09 07:26 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Communism? Not a high bar? How much chit you got in your house that says "made in china"? Who does your government borrow money from when they can't run the printing presses fast enough? That would be Communist China.


Oh please
China is not much for communism any more... I think Cuba is the only country I can think of that come remotely close to being communist. And even there, I think a person has to draw a distinction between theoretical political ideology and the practical political reality. And THAT is the clear distinction I would draw between libertarian theory and any conceivable libertarian government. I think a libertarian government would be libertarian in the same way as communists... governments that hold only to the pretense of communist principals while practical governing reality drove them all closer to fascism.


Edited by Ardy (05/23/09 11:35 PM)
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#112521 - 05/23/09 07:31 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: Greger
 Quote:
Is it time for this thread to die?

You may feel free to stop reading and posting on this thread at any time and considering it dead. Personally, I've had a lot of fun here, I've enjoyed the various views from all sides and I've tried to point out a few weaknesses in a few proclamations. I've made some points and conceded some points. All in all I believe it's been a good thread and a lively discussion.

Yours in Liberty;)
Greger


So kind of you to grant me that freedom. Enjoying your new look signature block. Where DO you get your inspiration these days?
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112539 - 05/23/09 11:03 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
[quote=Greger]
 Quote:
Is it time for this thread to die?


Probably best to leave it open until the choir gets over its fluster-fit. Only seems polite.:-)

In the meantime....


Two cavemen are in discussion:

Grog: That is a nice bow you made, Splog.
Splog: Thank you, Grog. I am satisfied with my efforts.

(Yes, cavemen were exceedingly polite. No, I do not know why.)

Grog: I think I will have it.
Splog: I think not, Grog.

Grog: Why not?

(Splog’s eyes glaze over and he sits, motionless)[/size]

Grog: What are you doing, Splog?

Splog: I am trying to conceptualize why I think you cannot have it. I suspect that I am attempting to have a notional moment relative to the bow.

Grog: What the heck is that?

Splog: I think it is one of those evolution things we have heard about, but, I suspect I will have to wait for government
before a concept explaining why I won’t let you have the bow
can be reified in this world.

(yes, cavemen also tended to use big words)

Grog: Government? What’s government? Come to think of it, what’s “reified”?

Splog: Government is the God whose arrival we must await before we are able to .. uh .. to .. well, I can’t say until government reifies it for me, can I?

Grog: You mean it’s that ol’, “which came first, the government or the concept?” puzzle?
Splog: Sorta.

Grog: Deep.

Grog: About that bow.
Splog: I’ll bust your head.

Yours in humor,:-)
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112544 - 05/23/09 11:49 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Oh please
China is not much for communism any more...

I know, the analogy was weak. They sorta claim to be communist though. Much like the United States still claims to have the Liberty it was founded on. What about that analogy? That the US was actually an attempt at a Libertarian Utopia? Granted there was no such thing as Libertarians yet but I still think it holds water. It's like Grog and Splog, what came first Liberty or Libertarians?
 Quote:
I think a libertarian government would be as libertarian in the same way as communists governments held only to the pretense of communist principals.,,, while practical governing reality drove them all closer to fascism.


And that's where we find ourselves today.
Spot on Ardy!
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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