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#112304 - 05/22/09 11:22 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: issodhos


You do realize, do you not, NW Ponderer, that "e pluribus unum" simply means "out of many states, one nation" -- and later repositioned to mean "out of many immigrating peoples, a single people?" Why attempt to falsely color it as a call for a sociopolitical collective?


Well, actually, the meaning you attribute to the phrase was a filch of the real original meaning which was to describe a magazine publication that pulled together articles from multiple issues into a single issue; a kind of "Greatest Hits" issue.

Why attempt to falsely color it?
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112310 - 05/22/09 12:20 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17184
Greger,
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Perhaps I oversimplify when I leave out commonwealth and immigrants and all the other semantics that can be tied to the phrase and suggest that "out of many, one" is what e pluribus unum means, simply a synonym for United. The phrase can be used to describe many things but I think it really has only one meaning.
And I like thinking of the United States as cheese - as it requires disparate ingredients, some messy decay to be worthwhile, and becomes more interesting with age.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#112311 - 05/22/09 12:24 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9718
Loc: Ireland
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
And I like thinking of the United States as cheese


ermmmm.

so many possibilities i cant decide how to respond
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"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#112312 - 05/22/09 12:26 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

And I like thinking of the United States as cheese - as it requires disparate ingredients, some messy decay to be worthwhile, and becomes more interesting with age.



Until it becomes covered with mold and is inedible --- as is now the case. ;\)

-
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#112313 - 05/22/09 12:34 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: pdx rick]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: issodhos

Your system has failed time and time again and the only response to its failure is to do the same thing over again.



 Originally Posted By: california rick

Isn't that the definition of insanity? To perform the task the same way over and over again and expect different results each time the task is repeated.



Well, isn't that the case with people who over and over expect the Constitution to work and produce a decent society? ;\)

-
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#112324 - 05/22/09 01:44 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: numan
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

And I like thinking of the United States as cheese - as it requires disparate ingredients, some messy decay to be worthwhile, and becomes more interesting with age.



Until it becomes covered with mold and is inedible --- as is now the case. ;\)

-


I take you've never enjoyed a fine Stilton or Roquefort?
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112328 - 05/22/09 01:53 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: loganrbt

I take you've never enjoyed a fine Stilton or Roquefort?



I knew someone was going to try pulling a line like that --- even though the phrase, "covered with mold and is inedible," cuts those cheeses out of the Venn diagram. ;\)

-
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#112346 - 05/22/09 03:22 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I suppose you haven't spent much time on the Constitution, have you - its structure and purpose? Oh, but discussion of that substantive portion of my earlier post would detract from the distraction of focusing on semantics, wouldn't it?

Well, I must admit that I have not spent much time restructuring, re-purposing, and fancifully re-interpreting it into a moldy piece of cheese that can be shaped into any transient form that is useful at any given moment, NW Ponderer.

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
"Rights" are merely interests that have gained sufficient importance to be protected by legal strictures - oh, which means protected by the State.


That is, at best, a description of privileges granted (and easily rescinded) by the State to its subjects, NW Ponderer, not Rights. Though, I do see how handy it can be to present Rights as being subject to the arbitrary interpretation of a ruling class, I remain much more comfortable with what I wrote in another thread quite some time back:
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Allow me to first repeat, with emphasis added, what I have previously written, which was, “My view is that rights are inalienable and pre-exist the state and also pre-exist any agreement made among men to recognize them.” Please note that I did not write that they pre-existed man. I also wrote that “rights are integral to the human mind” which is to say they are integral to man. They are essential to the completeness of man and reflect the nature of man, not nature in general, not ‘natural’ man, but the nature of man.

Yours,
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112347 - 05/22/09 03:26 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17184
In other words, rights are "notional."
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#112349 - 05/22/09 03:33 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In other words, rights are "notional."


In other words, Rights are "inherent". How's that for a stand-off?:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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