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#112546 - 05/23/09 09:36 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
But Greger, you have stated something that is not true. The United States was never based upon libertarian philosophy, for as has been pointed out several times here the founders specifically avoided such a proposition.

This nation was formed out of necessity, as are all others. In doing so, those who shaped it adopted an enlightened pragmatism, one with a lot of "we" and "common" and other "collectivist" terms.

The fact that the Bill of Rights cam after points to a concern they may have gone too far in the minds of some, but not that we were founded as an "individualist" state.
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#112550 - 05/23/09 11:17 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
Ron G. Offline
member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Issodhos is correct that we have been here before, as he referenced some of our previous efforts. We run down the same circular path and end up following the same circular patterns - chicken-and-egg style...

Not necessarily a [bad | unexpected] place to be, assuming the skill of the opponents. Like a couple of really good fencers going at it, and at the end of each foray it will almost seem as if they have gone repeatedly through the Grand Salute and nothing more - even though the careful observer is aware of the speed and skill applied by both sides.

 Quote:
I have my views, and over time they have become ingrained, not because I believe I am superior, but because over time, having thought them through thoroughly and allowed them to be challenged, they have stood up and remained logically and empirically consistent. I have rejected approaches that don't meet this criteria....

Have you considered the novel notion that Issodhos has done exactly the same for his position?

Why have I again gotten the impression that all too many here are basing their arguments on the thoroughly unwarranted assumption that Issodhos is - to borrow from another thread another poster's description of what he himself was not - some stereotypical kind of banjo-playing, Deliverance-level right-wing cretin wearing camo pants, a "cold, dead hand" tee-shirt, a Skoal cap, clutching a firearm that is merely a phallic symbol, sporting blue-blocker sunglasses and a Mike Ditka mustache?

 Quote:
I like a challenge, especially an intellectual one, and I love the give and take of a passionate debate....

And I think that this thread has demonstrated, as have similar ones in the past, both the intellect and the passion of the participants.

 Quote:
So, I am not going to get drawn further into a meaningless debate over angels and pins - whether one describes something as an "interest," a "human right," a "civil right....

You might consider also that your redoubtable libertarian opponent is equally unhappy with having his position distorted and misrepresented, or even a brand new one invented for him that he is expected to defend.
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#112551 - 05/23/09 11:39 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6425
Loc: Florida/Illinois
itstarted (nervously enters the room)

ummm... I got lost on the first page when liberty and government got mixed in together. My brother-in-law would put the question this way... "Do you walk to work, or carry your lunch?"

Interesting discussion all the way through the 13 pages. Seems to me that the very word "government" puts the lie to all of the definitions I could find. Even the most abstract and "liberal" law, by definition impinges on some "liberty".

What can anyone be "for"... that doesn't become an "against" to someone else.

After reading a few hours worth of essays on the Libertarianism website, I come away with a feeling that "sweetness" is the best description of the general position of the membership.

It seems like the advocates want freedom from government , only until something goes wrong... and then government should step in.

Is this weird of what? Don't make any rules untiil someone gets hurt?

I'm hiding under age, and early onset to account for my vapidity.

... just stopped by to tell you I enjoyed the discourse.
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#112554 - 05/24/09 01:14 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15147
Loc: Florida
Thanks Phil, for grounding me ;\) being a Collectivist and practically a Socialist these days I think I like your vision better than the one I created. I like this America, one where we have collective rights and individual rights, An America that takes care of it's own and for the most part lets me run free to do as I choose. The United States was based on Liberty and Freedom. it's taken a turn towards fascism but I believe it can turn away. Probably not in my lifetime but someday it will come to it's senses. Libertarian Philosophy is based on Liberty and Freedom. Sometimes I think it's ahead of it's time, man has simply not evolved far enough yet to handle that sort of individual responsibility, maybe some have, but not enough. Maybe some day but not yet.
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#112557 - 05/24/09 02:02 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
This nation was formed out of necessity, as are all others. In doing so, those who shaped it adopted an enlightened pragmatism, one with a lot of "we" and "common" and other "collectivist" terms.

The fact that the Bill of Rights cam after points to a concern they may have gone too far in the minds of some, but not that we were founded as an "individualist" state.


Codswaddle. Your use of ambiguity aside, America was founded on political individualism. It is quite distinct from your and others continued attempts to substitute for it the strawman of mere individualism.

There is also a vast difference between your use of "collectivist" to insinuate a "group" effort or agreement, and political collectism which is reflective of movements such as fascism, communism, and socialism.

 Quote:
In political philosophy, the individualist theory of government holds that the state should protect the liberty of individuals to act as they wish as long they do not infringe on the liberties of others. This contrasts with collectivist political theories, where, rather than leaving individuals to pursue their own ends, the state ensures that the individual serves the whole society. The term has also been used to describe "individual initiative" and "freedom of the individual." This theory is described well by "laissez faire," which means in French "let [the people] do" [for themselves what they know how to do]. This term is commonly associated with a free market system in economics, where individuals and businesses own and control the majority of factors of production. Government interferences are kept to a minimum.

Individualists are chiefly concerned with protecting individual autonomy against obligations imposed by social institutions (such as the state). Many individualists believe in protecting the liberties of the minority from the wishes of the majority. Thus, individualists oppose democratic systems without constitutional protections existing that do not allow individual liberty to be diminished by the interests of the majority. These concerns encompass both civil and economic liberties. For example, they oppose any concentration of commercial and industrial enterprise in the hands of the state, and the municipality. The principles upon which this opposition is based are mainly twofold: that popularly-elected representatives are not likely to have the qualifications, or the sense of responsibility, required for dealing with the multitudinous enterprises, and the large sums of public money involved in civic administration; and that the "health of the state" depends upon the exertions of individuals for their personal benefit (who, "like cells", are the containers of the life of the body).

SOURCE:
Yours,
Issodhos


Edited by issodhos (05/24/09 02:03 AM)
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#112558 - 05/24/09 02:09 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Greger
I like this America, one where we have collective rights and individual rights ...


What is a "collective right" and how is it exercised?
Yours,
Issodhos
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#112569 - 05/24/09 03:28 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
A collective right is what happens when Smokin' Joe, Ali, and George Forman all catch the same chin at the same time.
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#112574 - 05/24/09 04:35 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16833
Other than the term "Codswaddle" (a derivative of the term Codswallop), I'm not sure I followed any of the rest of your argument, Issodhos:
 Quote:
Your use of ambiguity aside, America was founded on political individualism. It is quite distinct from your and others continued attempts to substitute for it the strawman of mere individualism.

There is also a vast difference between your use of "collectivist" to insinuate a "group" effort or agreement, and political collectism which is reflective of movements such as fascism, communism, and socialism.
I take it that you disagree with Phil, and some unnamed others (I suspect I am among them), but I don't know what it is you are responding to. "America was founded on political individualism"? As opposed to "mere individualism"? Where is the strawman, exactly? And are we really arguing about the usage of "collectivism"? Seriously? What is the government but a collective, by definition? Are all of those phrases like "we the people" and "the right of the people" irrelevant to the discussion? Dang... Oops, I did it again.

Sorry, I didn't mean to inject any logic or context back into the thread.
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#112577 - 05/24/09 05:28 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sorry, I didn't mean to inject any logic or context back into the thread.


Not to fear, NW Ponderer. You didn't.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112585 - 05/24/09 11:16 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15147
Loc: Florida
 Quote:

What is a "collective right" and how is it exercised?


A "collective right" really is nothing more than a group of individuals claiming the same individual rights. It differs from mob rule somewhat since said rights are unalienable but The State has an awkward tendency to try to alienate people from those unalienable rights.

Here in The United States we exercised our collective rights first by Declaring our Independence from British Monarchic rule, then by ratifying a Constitution that restrained The State from usurping our rights.

The NRA and it's battle to preserve the Second Amendment is a bad example but at least one that Libertarians can side with.
The right to bear arms has existed since Grog and Splog used Sharpened sticks to kill prey and protect their stuff. The right to local control has existed since Madame Splog said "Excuse me, Grog, but you can't bring your sharpened stick into my tent. Please leave it outside."

The NRA is an association. An association is a "collective".
The right to bear arms is an individual right. When it is claimed and protected by a collective it becomes a "collective right", Right?

Later edit: an association is a legal collective not a political collective.



Edited by Greger (05/24/09 11:34 AM)
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