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#111616 - 05/16/09 04:29 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17024
In three words, Issodhos: that's your opinion.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#111617 - 05/16/09 04:33 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much.


There is nothing in libertarian philosophy that would prevent a voluntary association of individuals engaging collectively in an activity. If you wish to have a gardening collective made up of individuals who freely chose to participate in it, your and their right to freedom of association would be recognized.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111618 - 05/16/09 04:48 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Libertarianism is a good theory with one small fatal flaw(in my opinion) It can't work unless everyone is identical.


Because everyone is not indentical, I think libertarianism's opposition to initiating aggression, its recognition of unalienable natural rights, and its natural social tolerance for others makes it more workable.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111619 - 05/16/09 05:07 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In three words, Issodhos: that's your opinion.


In four words, NW Ponderer: That's my informed opinion.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111622 - 05/16/09 05:19 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
In word, Libertarianism = Somalia.

Even in the best of all imaginable worlds, libertarianism equals a ridiculous fantasy with every man to his own mountaintop valhalla, surrounded by a moat and machine guns.

And that valhalla had better be off the grid too, mate.


In three words, Checkerboard. You are incorrect.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


The difference may seem obvious to you, but less so to others. Perhaps you could review the salient points of distinction that you see .

Thx
Ardy
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#111623 - 05/16/09 10:00 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9718
Loc: Ireland
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Libertarianism is a good theory with one small fatal flaw(in my opinion) It can't work unless everyone is identical.


Because everyone is not indentical, I think libertarianism's opposition to initiating aggression, its recognition of unalienable natural rights, and its natural social tolerance for others makes it more workable.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


in theory, communism is quite workable
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#111624 - 05/16/09 10:37 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
2wins Offline
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
as far as being "collectivist," i suppose that is a fair label to pin on my, although i prefer cooperativist, thank you very much.


There is nothing in libertarian philosophy that would prevent a voluntary association of individuals engaging collectively in an activity. If you wish to have a gardening collective made up of individuals who freely chose to participate in it, your and their right to freedom of association would be recognized.
Yours,
Issodhos
i have read the histories of alternative communities, the true anarchists, and it seems that with each attempt, the groups involved in these experiments are undone by their desire to each have it his or her own way. in the end, they have all gone their own way. conversely, the community or collectivist experiments that seem to work more effectively are those in which common agreements are struck, a core principle is put in place that allows the communities to work in concert. within each system you work with a series of individuals, and personalities, and desires. but with a shared agreement - shall we call them laws? - a social contract, if you will, these groups coexist more effectively, imo.

all of that said, as schlack points out, communism, is also workable. the problem with any system, outside of disagreements over principles, is the human element. i, for example, do not have enough faith in humanity to see a true anarchist, cooperative society, work. neither do i see a the extreme on the other end of the spectrum work. it seems that in the middle, with a set of agreements, complicated as they become, society functions together, in a more pointed direction, with a greater purpose, the perpetuation of said society. of course there will always be those who put themselves outside the system in play, complaining that they have better answer. perhaps these individuals can never be satisfied.

outside of that, selfish individuals in any system are the downfall. an individualist society would work fine, i would concede, if you were working with a group of selfless minded folks. but that is a rare beast.
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sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#111627 - 05/16/09 11:10 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15349
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Greger
Libertarianism is a good theory with one small fatal flaw(in my opinion) It can't work unless everyone is identical.


Because everyone is not indentical, I think libertarianism's opposition to initiating aggression, its recognition of unalienable natural rights, and its natural social tolerance for others makes it more workable.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Again, I find no flaws with the theory and was writing a bit tongue in cheek. After all, this isn't my ball game or my thread.
My point was that if everyone shared your views then your theory of government and economics(the two are really one) would work admirably. That can't be said of all political/economic theories since most others are more top or bottom heavy and require an occasional "flip" to keep them rolling.
Over the years and through many thousands of posts, you have attempted to share your views with us, to show us on occasion that there is a different viewpoint from merely right or left. You seem a kind and gentle man, intelligent and educated, articulate and well read and yet you fail almost every time to make lightbulbs come on over our heads.
From the treatise presented at the beginning of this thread I gather that other Libertarians are having exactly the same problem. We, here, are generally an open minded group, many are very well educated in a variety of fields. I have no education whatsoever and can barely link words together to form a sentence, still I manage to absorb some of the simpler concepts presented here. I think most of us are opposed to initiating aggression, agree with you that we have inalienable natural rights, and are reasonably socially tolerant. How is it that Libertarianism can work if the concept cannot even be explained without invoking anger and misunderstanding? We seem to agree with all the basic tenets of libertarianism while at the same time we disagree with all the basic tenets of libertarianism. I call it Shrodingers Square peg.

The other possibility is that you invoke the anger and misunderstanding intentionally, I'd rather not even consider the possibility but the thought has arisen elsewhere. If such is the case and libertarians everywhere are doing the same then, my friend, Libertarianism can never be more than a crackpot scheme, with lots of fancy words and theories that only you can understand.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#111628 - 05/16/09 11:30 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
iss,

how about you give us a straight forward argument as to why we would be better off existing under the principles of libertarianism. in your own words. what say you?
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#111633 - 05/16/09 12:11 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: 2wins]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15349
Loc: Florida
2wins, I already understand how if everyone agreed to be a libertarian that the system should work. The Constitution of the United States would remain firmly in place, thus anrchy would not prevail. What I fail to understand is how it could ever possibly come about. In another thread I offered up a small nation as a sort of thought experiment where Issodhos could explain from the beginning how a libertarian government could be achieved, he hasn't had time to reply to that but I do look forward to discussing it with him.. I also look forward to his reply to your query. Perhaps we make too many demands on his limited online time though....
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