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#112000 - 05/19/09 09:43 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: pondering_it_all]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

You just can't get there from here, and even if you could it would be so unstable that it would revert back to a coercive system very quickly.



WHAT YOU SAID!

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#112019 - 05/19/09 10:11 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17102
I had an interesting discussion with my brother, who is a libertarian, this morning that included fishing, the "fair use" doctrine and property rights. (Where he and I have always agreed is that the primary role of government is to prevent individuals from interfering with the interests of other individuals... we just disagree over means, methods and degrees.) I see the fundamental premise of libertarianism as being an avoidance of coercive use of power - by the state, anyway. The first problem is, of course, that property rights do not exist in the absence of some state authority. The role of the "state," whatever its form, is to mediate differences between "citizens." More often than any other basis, the differences between citizens revolve around "property rights."

But what is a property right or interest? Do I have a property right in the air I breathe, the water I drink (or otherwise consume), the land upon which I place my feet, the invisible spectra of radiowaves? What prompts me to recognize such rights or interests in others? If I want it, what impells me not to take it? How can such rights be recognized, mediated, or even exist without the predicate of a "state"?

That is, I think, the foundational flaw of libertarianism. It is based upon the recognition of property interests as if they existed in absence of the state, yet such interest cannot be recognized or effectuated without reference to a state system. The "state" and "property" are inextricably linked. Failure of the premise requires failure of the conclusion.
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#112023 - 05/19/09 10:47 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
I find it still more curious how rarely self-declared libertarians advocate moving away from societies that are highly structured and in which "the state" plays a pivotal role in most, if not all, aspects of life. Why, for example, don't they band together, buy any of the number of islands that are for sale around the world, and move there, where they can simply not establish a state? Curious.
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#112029 - 05/19/09 11:07 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Well put, NWP. This is the point at which issodhos have often crossed swords -- and he always mistates what I say.

Here is the thing, absent the state, it is who has the biggest gun. So far as I know, there is no God who grants deeds to property, it is a fictional system upon which we humans agreed eons ago to minimize fighting.

It isn't even an issue of whether the state grants property rights or not; the point is they guarantee and protect such rights which otherwise exist only to the extent one can defend them (which by the way, is true of all so-called rights, they are all creations of the state in the sense that without a state, the "right" is worthless)
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#112034 - 05/20/09 01:24 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Re: highways, issodhos, I take it you are going to repeal the 5th Amendment? Too collectivist for ya?

I have long held that if an amendment to the Constitution increases individual freedom or increases the protection of individual rights, then it is a good thing. If it does the opposite, it is a bad thing. I would have no problem with amending the 5th Amendment to eliminate the last clause which implies a governmental entity has the authority to forcibly take private property for public use.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112035 - 05/20/09 01:30 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: ]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I am disappointed, Issodhos, but not surprised, that nothing you have responded with in your previous post is actually responsive to my post. I see assumptions, conjectures, excuses, and insults, but no substantive response.


I am sure you see what you want to see, NWP. Based on your previous post, you obviously either did not want to see, or intentionally ignored what I had written in earlier posts, and instead created a strawman with which to argue.

I think my previous response was more than your post merited, NWP.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112036 - 05/20/09 01:33 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Schlack]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Schlack
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Your system has failed time and time again


hmmm, no successes?

public education, despite its problems, compared to what was in existence 150 years ago is not a success?


If you put my post into context you will see that I was referring to olyve’s questions about government-run social assistance programs, but I do consider government-run, taxpayer-funded public education to be an abysmal failure, unless it is measured by its ability to process and churn out semi-literate cogs conditioned to fill empty slots within the workforce while uncritically regurgitating the oppressed “victim” crap put into their heads by pedagogical dummies who serve as Useful Gullibles – then I guess one could say it has been an outstanding success.
Yours in bemusement,
Issodhos
_________________________
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#112037 - 05/20/09 01:44 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Schlack]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Schlack
Thanks for engaging on this level, i repeat the proviso that this is a thought experiment, meant purely to explore how a libertarian orientated socienty might work. wil all the health warnings a Hypo should have.


Interesting response, so the sea should be divided up and owned. I can see in theory how this might be done but this does raise a host of new queries.

No. If you refer back to what I wrote you will see that I said the commercial fishing rights for sections of the EU waters would be sold. Please remember that your request was for a libertarian solution to “a sustainable fish industry that people can make a living from”. It is the commercial fishing rights that would be owned, and then only in EU waters.

Doesnt this go against the entire notion of the freedom of the seas? which i believe is an extremely strong tradition. I cant see fishhermen either supporting or it it came to fruition, respecting it. This would be asking fishermen to pay for something that they already have for free. How is such opposition to be overcome?

If I understand the concept correctly, freedom of the seas has to do more with transit than with fishing, and has nothing to do with fishing in waters internationally recognized as the sovereign territory of geo-political entities. Freedom of transit would still be recognized in a libertarian influenced system. As to overcoming a fisherman’s objections, currently it might ultimately be by Rule .303, but in a libertarian influenced system it would be through routine trespassing laws enforced by the government policing entities (coast guard?) and courts. A note to those posters in opposition to a more freedom-based world who are still attempting to misdirect others concerning libertarian oriented systems: I made it quite clear in a previous post that taxes would only be reduced as spending is reduced through the elimination of government programs, and I have not discussed the other forms for financing government provided services.;-)

who then would decide upon the divisions? doesnt this process automatically favour the stronger, richer and squeeze out the "normal joe" fisherman into the crappier fishing grounds.

Who currently owns, or at least, who currently holds sovereignty over the EU waters? As a de facto ‘owner’, the state would probably divide the waters into equal units such as hectares. The sections would be bid on by the fishermen based on their knowledge of each section’s value based on its productivity (historical abundance of fish). Since the ‘owner’ of the waters is the state, as owner, the state could limit the initial number of units that could go to any one fisherman/company and require that the owner not sell, lease, or allow the commercial taking of fish by others in his section for a specified period of time (think if it as a contractual covenant). Of course, after that, what each owner does with his fishing rights is up to him.

Who would benifit from the monies created from this water sale?

The money could be put into a fund to defray the costs of protecting the property rights of the fishermen. It should in some way be tagged for use related to its source.

Does the process of division and sale not create a huge opportunity for corruption and graft on an even greater scale than exists today? I mean look at the size of the seas involved - the quantities of monies this would generate would be staggering.

Man is always subject to corruption and graft. Are you suggesting that the current master/slave system supported by many in this forum is in any way not completely corrupt and graft-ridden? I do not see the usefulness of this question, as I have repeated written that there is no utopia, the human critter is sloppy, often morally fuzzy, and perfection is not being sought.

It would involve the state selling off the sea which is something the fishermen already "own" in common.

Nothing is owned if it is “commonly owned” in the sense you ar using it. And we are not discussing selling off the sea, only the commercial fishing rights in EU waters that have been geographically sectioned off.

Who indeed would police it? and how would this policing be funded. look at the area to be policed, by no means an easy or cheap task. I dont think we could rely upon the essential goodness of people to respect property rights can we? oh sure the big winners of the water sale would be able to fund a navy force, but even that would be far too small for the scale of sea. Oh and this would have the knock on effect of creating a huge temptation on the part of Big Fish to use their private navy to expand their sea patches (arrrr matey)

If you mean who should protect the property rights of the fishermen, who polices farms? Communities? Business districts? It is a legitimate function of government to protect an individual’s rights. I think user fees paid by the fishermen would be a good way to fund such policing, as would user fees of dock owners, fish-packing houses, and others who benefit commercially from such services, but as I wrote in an earlier post, taxes would not be reduced until government was reduced, and a transition to a more libertarian-oriented system would be gradual and in increments, if done at all. That said, even if a few changes are made without fully embracing liberty, we would be the better for it (arrgggh!:-))

hmmmmm, the farmer analogy is interesting, shall we take a look at what beef farmers are doing in the ex-rainforest areas of south america, maximising the use of the land, overgrazing it, furthering the process of desertification begun by deforestation. They are in danger now of destroying the land that provides for them. Are they engaging in " treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season."? or with their maximised profits move on to another peice of available land.
why would fishermen act any differently unless forced?

I don’t think any kind of analogy can be drawn between beef farmers in South America operating in a currently collectivist-oriented system and EU waters fishermen operating in a libertarian-oriented system. The former strips land of its natural state so as to introduce and fatten an external product, beef, while the latter would have to maintain the natural state of his section of EU waters in order to continue to harvest a product that is already there, and would remain there only so long as he does not negatively alter its natural state.

This also brings up the policing aspect. there will be those who overfish and deplete stock in their patch. the temptation will always be there to stray intentionally or otherwise into anothers patch and destroy any good work that might have been done conservation wise.

Already addressed, above. Bear in mind, Schlack, that all the bad things you mention in your post are already taking place under the current collectivist-oriented system. I have no problem placing trust in others to respect the rights they themselves would want respected – and if they let me down, remedies are available.
Yours in musing,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112038 - 05/20/09 01:51 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.


--The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.


Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood who foolishly hook up their horses or fire up their tractors year after year to plow dirt depleted by them in the hope of using it up before it is passed on to their children.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112039 - 05/20/09 02:00 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: pondering_it_all]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
You just can't get there from here, and even if you could it would be so unstable that it would revert back to a coercive system very quickly.


It is said that some of the strongest defenders of the plantation system and their masters were family house slaves.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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