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#111474 - 05/15/09 06:19 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Allen Owen]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14332
Loc: Whittier, California
 Originally Posted By: Allen Owen
NASA built the space program with the help of: Private industry and Nazi engineers "liberated" from Germany.


Yes absolutely but it took the government, at Kennedy's behest, to do the heavy lifting in order FOR "private industry" to move on it, so you're missing my point entirely.
Tell me what YOU think would have become of the moon race had the government just sat back and said "let's see the market take care of development".
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#111493 - 05/15/09 11:10 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
AustinRanter Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 3643
Loc: Austin, Texas
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
AustinRanter, I did not mention any party. As issodhos has correctly pointed out, libertarianism is quite a different thing from the Libertarian party.

I call into question the entire philosophical/political underpinnings of the libertarians.


Sorry, Phil...

Guess I missed the gist. But, let me change my comment to:

Democratism - Republicanism - Libertarianism = Surrendering One's Ability to Engage in Free Thinking

And just for grins...throw in any other "political ism" on the left side of the equation and the equation still works.

I know, I know...now it appears that I've injected "anarchyism" into the topic. On this day of May 2009, our nation is so ismed out...I can't tell which is worse.
_________________________
Turn on ANY brand of political machine - and it automatically goes to the "SPIN and LIE CYCLE" wink

Yours Truly - Gregg



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#111494 - 05/15/09 11:23 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Allen Owen Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 165
Probably nothing would have happened. Not much profit could be gained by landing some guys on the moon and having them gather samples. Until technology can make mining minerals on the moon and elsewhere viable, most companies are going to stay right here on earth. Some aspects of libertarianism make me just shake my head, like privatized roads, privatized law enforcement(shudder). Privatized prisons(double shudder). Some things don't need to be privatized. Some things can't be privatized because there is no way to make money performing those tasks, and therefore will not get done. Prisons don't need to be privatized, even though I suspect that has already happened, since we have so many people in prison now. What I fear we are seeing develop here in the USA is an unholy alliance with big business and big government. Our freedoms and rights get in the way of their profits and must be eliminated. Nothing personal, just business.
_________________________
"When fascism comes to this country it will be draped in the flag and carrying a cross"-Sinclair Lewis

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#111499 - 05/15/09 11:51 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: AustinRanter]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9718
Loc: Ireland
from what i can see, libertariansim would reduce the amout of govt created problems. problems often created by attempts to make changes or fix other problems.

however a changeover to libertarianism would lead to a host of new problems in itself, and leave us with no formal mechansims to attempt to resolve common problems.

the philosophy of libertarianism is very useful to inform action, it provides a very neccessary counterbalance, but i think that a society based on it would not work.

or at least it has never been adequately explained how it might work. I would appreiate it if it could be explained by the adherents of libertarianism.


how would common problems be resolved?
how would the free market be kept free from being distorted? Surely any structures or mechanisms created in this new society would dsitort the market.
how would say the route of a road or the location of a hospital be decided upon?
How would such a society protect itself?
How would its laws (however few) be enforced? - in essence how would the violence of the state be managed.
On what basis would limited resources be distributed?
How would the weak/defenceless/destitute people be catered for?

Im would also be very interested in how people who wish to have democratic involvement in the economy, in how decisions are made etc are to be reconciled with this new society without it being forced upon them.

As there are no real world examples of a libertarian society* this would indeed be a thought experiment, and any answers arsing from these questions would be purely hypothetical, so im not looking for exact details. Im also not saying that existing systems dont have major problems with all of the above, but im not willing to take a leap of faith on somethign different without some kind of benefit!

and yes, it is me you have to convince! How else will the libertarian utopia be created without convincing people of its merits? I cant be forced into it without libertarians crapping all over their own philosophy.

Im seeking a more general understanding of how such a society/economy/polity would work. But until there are some reasonable answers to the above questions, im afraid libertarianism as a practical philosphy for the basis of a society/community remains a utopian fantasy. We have had these discussions before, but never once has it been adequately explained.

*The closest i can think of is some of the anarchist communities that arose during the Spanish Civil War.
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#111502 - 05/15/09 12:27 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
Because I was posting on my non-desktop computer, yesterday, I didn't get a chance to get to the parts that I agreed with you on, numan. I particularly agreed with your assessment of political theory, your suspicion of it, and your assertion that
 Originally Posted By: numan
politics should be an experimental science; that it should start with a variety of small scale models, that the bugs should be worked out before political procedures are scaled up to wide scale application. Above all, there should be flexibility, an awareness that there are "different strokes for different folks," there is no "one size fits all" in human affairs, and above all, circumstances change, and we should change with them.

But what do we see in history? People with inflexible theories, who are easy prey for scoundrels who flatter them; rigid and fossilized social institutions that fight tooth-and-nail to protect parasitic and narrow interests.
I happen to disagree with your assessment of the Constitution and its role in our political success as a people, but I fundamentally agree with these assertions and that it is a mix of systems that create success. I simply believe that the framework of our Constitution has been far more successful than others, and especially the parliamentary systems you appear so fond of. They are close kin, but I think a system of regularized period elections is more effective than one where the government can be toppled on a whim of the electorate. We forget that the Constitution has had some significant adjustments over the years - direct election of Senators and the President, expansion of suffrage, extension of Bill of Rights protections - but have become afraid of making further adjustments. Yes, there are flaws, but there is no other system that has proved more robust.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#111532 - 05/15/09 03:15 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Allen Owen]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14332
Loc: Whittier, California
 Originally Posted By: Allen Owen
Probably nothing would have happened.
Until technology can make mining minerals on the moon and elsewhere viable, most companies are going to stay right here on earth.


---And in a typically strange libertarian game of "chicken or egg" that technology wouldn't be possible UNTIL man went to the moon of course.
Hence...my post referring to house sized "personal computers" and old vacuum tube TV sets.
Technology has benefitted from the very LIBERAL idea of dreaming about landing on the moon, and from the very LIBERAL idea of having government lend a hand to do heavy lifting when it benefits the nation as a whole across the board.

Tis true that this is also an "unholy alliance between big business and big government", but like all things there is a good side as well as a bad side.

It's the human factor that determines which comes into play.
Hence my conclusion that politics is not about people, not about nations, not about race or religion, not about left or right, not about ideologies, not about belief systems, but about specific PERSONS and their specific histories.
It is specific persons who make politics either good or bad.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#111540 - 05/15/09 04:30 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
-

 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

I simply believe that the framework of our Constitution has been far more successful than others, and especially the parliamentary systems you appear so fond of. They are close kin, but I think a system of regularized period elections is more effective than one where the government can be toppled on a whim of the electorate.



I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to have some strange notions about parliamentary systems.

I know of no parliamentary system that can "be toppled on a whim of the electorate." All parliamentary systems are indirect democracies --- just as is the system of government of the USA. Governments can only fall by a majority vote of the representatives in the legislature, or by the resignation of the government, which usually leads to a general election.

Wikipedia: PARLIAMENT

The conservative part of me strongly supports indirect democracy. Just as much as the John Birchers and the Founding Fathers of the US Constitution, I distrust the "mob" and its fickle, empty-headedness.

In this respect I agree with the instigators of the American Rebellion, though I like to point out the Founding Fathers' anti-democratic statements, in order to provide a much-needed antidote to the semi-religious veneration which so many Americans feel toward that pack of scoundrels and traitors.


P.S. I am not so sure that the direct election of Senators, nor the holding of referenda, as they presently are conducted, constitute an improvement in the American system of government.


Edited by numan (05/15/09 09:11 PM)
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#111545 - 05/15/09 05:18 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler

Hence...my post referring to house sized "personal computers" and old vacuum tube TV sets.



Do not be too hasty in holding vacuum tubes in contempt.

I know a number of audiophiles, and I have a good friend who is a brilliant audio engineer. They use almost nothing but vacuum tubes. They still provide superior sound reproduction compared to transistors. They maintain the linearity of the original signal far better than, in general, transistors will ever be able to do.

I can barely endure listening to "the finest products of modern sound reproduction." In comparison with the high-end audiophile systems of my engineer friend, there is enormous distortion of the original signal, and the comparative flatness of the dynamics make it a torture to listen to the expensive transistorized sound systems, which the brainwashing of advertising propaganda makes people think are so wonderful --- in direct contradiction to what their ears actually hear!

The control of the minds of the masses can scarcely go further, once hypnotic suggestion can obliterate and replace direct sensory perception.

Moreover, vacuum tubes are much more resistant to "electromagnetic pulse warfare." Enemy attack could easily fry the circuits of our modern electronics --- and then where would we be? The USA does not manufacture vacuum tubes any more --- unless it is being done in some secret military program. The Russians and the Chinese have not been so foolish.

Even worse, if we wanted to manufacture vacuum tubes of the quality produced in the 1930's and '40's, we could not do so. In most cases, the specifications and plans for the high-quality electronic products of that period have disappeared, been scattered, and destroyed. We would need to re-invent vacuum tubes almost from scratch.

Progress is not always forward; it can, and frequently does, go backward. Valuable information can be, for all practical purposes, irretrievably lost.

"You don't know what you've lost till it's gone."

-
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#111614 - 05/16/09 04:17 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581

Okay, Phil, let us begin by me once again stating my general political philosophy as well as my economic philosophy. As I have stated before, I am strongly influenced by libertarian thought and subscribe to political Individualism Vs political collectivism. I am supportive of natural rights and limited government. As to economics, I am supportive of free markets and favor the Austrian School of economics. In general, I identify strongly with classical liberalism, root of today’s libertarian thought. It was the liberalism borne of the Enlightenment and espoused and practiced in the early days of our country. I have no problem being referred to as a libertarian, but I do have a difference of opinion on some issues (which is to be expected), and I am not an anarcho-capitalist.

The first thing that might help those who know nothing of libertarianism is to understand that it is a political philosophy – not an economic or a social philosophy. It is based on the relationship of the individual to the state. This begins with political Individualism, which holds that the individual is the owner of his or her personhood – not the state. It is the opposite of the millennia old belief that the individual is ultimately the property of the state, king, tyrant, and etc. to do with as it wishes.

A fundamental tenet of libertarian thought is that no one, including the state, has the right to initiate aggression against another except in self-defense or the defense of an innocent. This is supported by another fundamental tenet of libertarian thought, which is that man has natural rights.

Most, if not all, of this stuff has been addressed in previous threads, but I’ll be your huckleberry – up to a point. What would you like me to try answering?:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#111615 - 05/16/09 04:21 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
In word, Libertarianism = Somalia.

Even in the best of all imaginable worlds, libertarianism equals a ridiculous fantasy with every man to his own mountaintop valhalla, surrounded by a moat and machine guns.

And that valhalla had better be off the grid too, mate.


In three words, Checkerboard. You are incorrect.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


Edited by issodhos (05/16/09 04:22 AM)
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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