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#112408 - 05/22/09 11:56 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
There was no springing from the nature of anything issodhos, rather the notion (yes it is "notional") grew over eons of time from the heads of mankind. Your is a circular argument and dependent upon belief not facts. As such I acknowledge it, but find it fools gold -- there is no "there" there.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#112409 - 05/23/09 12:15 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
Rubbish is it? You just love those self-descriptive terms, don't you?

Even a casual review of the many shattered elements of "nature" that make "man" unique from other forms of animal life documents how ephemeral is our self-ascribed sense of superiority over other animals that populate the earth (language, tools, opposable thumbs, societal behavior, etc).

The only element of our nature that truly makes us unique is our willingness to despoil our own nest, an absurd form of behavior that virtually every other animal avoids. You may wish to pretend that you are in some way different from the large predator cats, but the only real difference is your ability to believe yourself superior.
_________________________
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112417 - 05/23/09 02:29 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Ardy

Is there any reason why we would regard the above statment as anything other than a statement of your own personal opinion?

Is there any place in the quote where I attribute it to another?
Yours,
Issodhos


So, I just want to be clear that what you are saying is your opinion about the subject... and when you say
 Originally Posted By: issodhos

In other words, Rights are "inherent".
Yours,
Issodhos


YOu are not stating a fact, you are stating an opinion
it is your own personal definition that human rights are inherent.

And that reality appears to make your opnin on this subject notional in the followinng meaning of the word...
"Speculative, theoretical, not the result of research."


Based on the study of the nature of man, Ardy. I thought we did this dance in a previous thread.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112421 - 05/23/09 02:44 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
As such I acknowledge it, but find it fools gold -- there is no "there" there.


And your argument is that you or someone else knows when man had a eureka moment in both political concept and the concept of property -- how many hundreds of thousands of years ago? Not buying it, Phil.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. Given the cheese posts, the critter prattle, and the apparent desire of posters to get away from the "practical" impact of applying libertarian-oriented thought, I suspect this thread is devolving back down to the same level originally established by the opening post. I remain, for the time being, your huckleberry. If anyone has anymore scenarios they wish to present for a possible libertarian solution, I am remain at your disposal.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112424 - 05/23/09 02:49 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: loganrbt
Rubbish is it? You just love those self-descriptive terms, don't you?

Even a casual review of the many shattered elements of "nature" that make "man" unique from other forms of animal life documents how ephemeral is our self-ascribed sense of superiority over other animals that populate the earth (language, tools, opposable thumbs, societal behavior, etc).


I encourage you to re-read my post, loganrbt. I made no claim to man being superior. I did make the claim that his nature was different from the nature of a leopard -- and by extension, other animals. I could, but I did not.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112425 - 05/23/09 02:52 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
As such I acknowledge it, but find it fools gold -- there is no "there" there.


And your argument is that you or someone else knows when man had a eureka moment in both political concept and the concept of property -- how many hundreds of thousands of years ago? Not buying it, Phil.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. Given the cheese posts, the critter prattle, and the apparent desire of posters to get away from the "practical" impact of applying libertarian-oriented thought, I suspect this thread is devolving back down to the same level originally established by the opening post. I remain, for the time being, your huckleberry. If anyone has anymore scenarios they wish to present for a possible libertarian solution, I am remain at your disposal.
Yours,
Issodhos


You can try to demean others, but you have come up with nothing but the most inane, self referencing and assumptive reasons to support you positions.

What I wanted to accomplish on this thread was to demonstrate the completely vacuous nature of libertarian thinking, and you have done the job beyond my wildest hopes.

Thank you.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#112429 - 05/23/09 03:22 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
As such I acknowledge it, but find it fools gold -- there is no "there" there.


And your argument is that you or someone else knows when man had a eureka moment in both political concept and the concept of property -- how many hundreds of thousands of years ago? Not buying it, Phil.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. Given the cheese posts, the critter prattle, and the apparent desire of posters to get away from the "practical" impact of applying libertarian-oriented thought, I suspect this thread is devolving back down to the same level originally established by the opening post. I remain, for the time being, your huckleberry. If anyone has anymore scenarios they wish to present for a possible libertarian solution, I am remain at your disposal.
Yours,
Issodhos


You can try to demean others, but you have come up with nothing but the most inane, self referencing and assumptive reasons to support you positions.

What I wanted to accomplish on this thread was to demonstrate the completely vacuous nature of libertarian thinking, and you have done the job beyond my wildest hopes.
Thank you.


Actually, what I have seen is a stampede by you and others away from the very topic you claimed you wanted to address, hoping to find firmer ground from which to toss spit-balls about cheese, cave men, leopards, knowledge of prehistoric man's mental awareness, and anything that would deminish rights to mere privilege controlled, granted, defined, and manipulated by an elite few. Nice try.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112434 - 05/23/09 03:47 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
You are funny, issodhos, good luck with that.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#112438 - 05/23/09 04:02 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
By the way, kudos to Schlack, olyve, and Gregor for their fair approach to the subject.:-)
Yours in appreciation,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112447 - 05/23/09 04:29 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17429
It so happens that I am a firm believer in fundamental human rights, but to assert that they have any meaningful existence independent of their recognition by societal authority is just plain silly. The Declaration of Independence does not assert such a condition, nor does the Constitution. As noted in the Declaration
 Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
(Emphasis added.) It is the declaration of such rights that gives them meaning, and they remain meaningful only so long as they are protected by the instruments of social authority. So much for social theory.

Now, I took this entire thread to be intended to address the inability of libertarianism to provide meaningful solutions to real-world problems. Libertarianism is, and always has been, a theoretical proposition. Nothing produced here, or really anywhere else, has ever demonstrated otherwise. Issodhos apparently doesn't like cheese, so let me give another reference that may, perhaps, be more germane to illustrating the relevance of libertarianism to practical political discourse: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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