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#111649 - 05/16/09 03:58 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7509
Loc: Athens, Ga.
I'd like to step past the luring/baiting and have a 'real' conversation too about Libertarianism.

As a person who aligned myself with the Green party for many years (and still hold those ideals) and worked with Libertarians on mutual causes such as ballot access, what are your thoughts about certain 'social' issues like education, health care and support for people who are unable to work due to health reasons (mental or physical)? I am asking from the standpoint of people who don't have the means to pay for private school or health insurance or can support themselves (feed and cloth) without an income.

Your big post above, Greger, is well put and speaks my mind. Thank you.
Much anger and resentment has been aimed at the Green Party too. I know I've been the butt of it plenty of times.
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#111652 - 05/16/09 04:02 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
It seems to me that selfishness/self-interests is a biologically inbuilt part of human nature. Fundamentally, we all want more; we all feel that our lives would be better "if only" we could have more of something or other.

For me, libertarianism is mostly an intellectual rationale to help justify and support our continual desire for "more."

Every ongoing personal relationship requires that the individuals must constantly struggle with resolving their own individual interest when it is in conflict with the interests of the other... or the relationship.

And, to a larger degree, I feel that there is an inevitable tension in the social contract where every individual will feel that he/she should have more... and that he/she has less because of what is (inappropriately) going to other(s).

And, IMO, libertarianism provides the perfectly honed intellectual rationale to explain why I should have more as a sanctified natural right... as opposed to mere personal greed.

As far as I can tell, in any arrangement of society, there will always be people who feel they have been deprived and are entitled to "more." I think that cannot exist a society where libertarians would not make their arguments to support a reduction in "social oppression" in favor a fuller expression of "natural rights".

The argument of libertarianism seems to imply that there exists some idealized social structure that would (almost scientifically) resolve all tension and conflict by correctly attributing all rights and goods according to natural law. IMO, this would be less possible than having a human couple with no augments or disputes between them.
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#111660 - 05/16/09 04:45 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
I might be a libertarian at heart, I might be a socialist. Politically I'm pretty ambiguous, whatever works is good by me. My inner socialist says this tribe, 300 million strong, like any other tribe, when traveling across the plains, the stronger help the weaker, the wealthy help the poor. If I have an inner libertarian he says no laws need be written to force this to occur.
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#111661 - 05/16/09 04:51 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
olyve Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7509
Loc: Athens, Ga.
I think maybe you're right in general, Ardy
I don't strive for more "stuff" for myself assuming that is mostly what you're talking about because I'm doing fine in that regard now.
But I do wish more people who don't have daily needs met could have more because I think it makes my and my family's world safer and a more enriched place to live.
I'm not at all trying to be snarky toward libertarians but I do believe that is a major difference in my philosophy and that of Isso's. I can't be sure of course unless he responds though.

I know I painted a broad picture that will probably leave me open to whatever but I'll deal with that later if it's an issue.
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#111662 - 05/16/09 04:53 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
olyve Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7509
Loc: Athens, Ga.
 Originally Posted By: Greger
...the stronger help the weaker, the wealthy help the poor. If I have an inner libertarian he says no laws need be written to force this to occur.
maybe I"m a closet libertarian then too, Greger. I wish that could be true.
History shows otherwise.
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#111667 - 05/16/09 05:14 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: olyve]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: Greger
...the stronger help the weaker, the wealthy help the poor. If I have an inner libertarian he says no laws need be written to force this to occur.
maybe I"m a closet libertarian then too, Greger. I wish that could be true.
History shows otherwise.


I think that not only history shows.... but also any study of the societies of our near animal relatives.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#111673 - 05/16/09 05:28 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: olyve
 Originally Posted By: Greger
...the stronger help the weaker, the wealthy help the poor. If I have an inner libertarian he says no laws need be written to force this to occur.
maybe I"m a closet libertarian then too, Greger. I wish that could be true.
History shows otherwise.


I think that not only history shows.... but also any study of the societies of our near animal relatives.


And that, to my notion, Ardy and Olyve, is the fatal flaw in Libertarianism. Equality must be enforced by law or this is what will happen.
 Quote:
Chickens have a rigid social structure called the “pecking order” by which every bird establishes who is dominant and who is submissive in relationship to every other bird. Dominant birds peck at submissive birds, pluck their feathers, and may chase them away or steal their food. Submissive birds will not peck back and will usually run from the dominant birds. Anytime a bird is added or subtracted from the flock, even if it is only a well-known bird that has been temporarily removed and then returned to the group, the entire flock will fight briefly to re-establish the pecking order. Flocks of greater than 15 birds can lead to excessive fighting and less productivity. Males should not be kept together as they will often fight each other and may even sexually abuse or kill the weaker birds.
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#111686 - 05/16/09 06:29 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
2wins Offline
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
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 Originally Posted By: Greger
2wins, I already understand how if everyone agreed to be a libertarian that the system should work. The Constitution of the United States would remain firmly in place, thus anrchy would not prevail. What I fail to understand is how it could ever possibly come about. In another thread I offered up a small nation as a sort of thought experiment where Issodhos could explain from the beginning how a libertarian government could be achieved, he hasn't had time to reply to that but I do look forward to discussing it with him.. I also look forward to his reply to your query. Perhaps we make too many demands on his limited online time though....
i think he likes the attention.
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#111695 - 05/16/09 07:57 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: Ardy

It seems to me that selfishness/self-interests is a biologically inbuilt part of human nature. Fundamentally, we all want more; we all feel that our lives would be better "if only" we could have more of something or other.



I disagree very strongly with that statement.

Anthropology, and history, and even a cursory examination of the psychology of many individuals in our own society, show that such is not always, or even usually, the case in human societies.

Modern Westerners, and especially brainwashed American consumers, often fall for the line that is constantly being pushed at them, that their lives will only be complete if they have more of this, that, and the other thing.

That just shows where they are from!

It is intellectual slovenliness to assume that what is true of us, or the people around us, is true of all people and all situations.

-


Edited by numan (05/16/09 07:58 PM)
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#111699 - 05/16/09 08:41 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
olyve Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7509
Loc: Athens, Ga.
 Originally Posted By: numan

Modern Westerners, and especially brainwashed American consumers, often fall for the line that is constantly being pushed at them, that their lives will only be complete if they have more of this, that, and the other thing.
I agree with that.
I also believe that with wealth comes the responsibility to give back to the society that enabled said wealth.
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