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#112043 - 05/20/09 03:38 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?
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#112044 - 05/20/09 06:02 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Ron G. Offline
member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
...
It is said that some of the strongest defenders of the plantation system and their masters were family house slaves.;-)

Early on in this thread I said that I neither felt any obligation to defend you nor did I feel that you needed defending. Having reviewed the bidding throughout this thread, I see no need to adjust that statement in any way.
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#112047 - 05/20/09 10:15 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Using the inverse of Ardy’s commons analogy, if a fisherman knows that his and his family’s livelihood depends on not over-fishing his section and treating it in an environmentally safe manner, he will regulate his harvest so that reproducing stock are left for the next season. He may even compete with other fishermen to make his section more hospitable and attractive to the fish, especially if the fish he is after is a migrating species.


--The above almost NEVER happens in modernized culture, and almost never happens even in the most idyllic of aboriginal cultures either, regardless of what political, philosophical or religious system it is governed by.
The lessons of Easter Island point to mankind's inability to properly husband his resources without regulation.

Libertarian epic fail.


Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood who foolishly hook up their horses or fire up their tractors year after year to plow dirt depleted by them in the hope of using it up before it is passed on to their children.
Yours,
Issodhos


Really? Have you told all the farmers in the Midwest who make livings good enough to send their kids to college and take a vacation every winter? I think they'll be surprised to learn they are not successful!
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#112049 - 05/20/09 10:17 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Issodhos, at the bedrock, where I think your system is falsely based is your claim that government should exist only to secure individual rights. On what is that based, other than your assumption? Why not common rights as well?


Going down a different road: if the rights are individual rights, then why do we need (or want) a state to secure them? Let them hire their own security. Worked really well out on the frontier. Well, except when someone else had a competing individual right but we don't need a state to settle those issues.
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"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown

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#112050 - 05/20/09 10:26 AM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15654
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Why not common rights as well?

That's probably my biggest bone of contention with the Libertarian theory. But we must consider that even a few small changes in that direction would eliminate some of the issues that weigh so heavily on our population. For instance, Phil, the right to marry whomever you wish, regardless of gender. In an even slightly Libertarian System this would be a no brainer. The right to possess, grow, consume, and sell marijuana and a variety of other drugs. Again a no brainer. Abortion rights? Done. True equality for all races through the law? By the very definition, Libertarians are color blind. Everyone here, except Issodhos, seems to think Libertarians would remove government, military and law enforcement. Phil, you said
 Quote:
Here is the thing, absent the state, it is who has the biggest gun.
Who said the state would be absent? Issodhos has said the the Constitution, The Judiciary, the Military, and Law Enforcement Agencies would remain intact. Only the Focus of government would change, from what is heading towards a totalitarian fascist state to one that is more directed toward protecting the rights promised us by the founding fathers and the constitution. To coin an old phrase "liberty and justice for all." All of us want to see changes made in our government.
 Originally Posted By: Issodhos
even if a few changes are made without fully embracing liberty, we would be the better for it

It's pretty confusing, and in my mind unworkable to have a completely Libertarian System, man is a stubborn beast and as has been mentioned here before he often requires coercion to do what is right. The means of coercion would still exist. Probably the common rights that you and I see as necessities would still be protected. Phil, there's no need to give over completely to the libertarians, we can keep some of our socialist tendencies intact within the system, but right now we seem to be giving over completely to the Corporations and giving up rights.....er...right and left.



Edited by Greger (05/20/09 12:43 PM)
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#112061 - 05/20/09 12:52 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: Greger

the right to marry whomever you wish, regardless of gender. In an even slightly Libertarian System this would be a no brainier. The right to possess, grow, consume, and sell marijuana and a variety of other drugs. Again a no brainer. Abortion rights? Done. True equality for all races through the law? By the very definition, Libertarians are color blind.


In theory what you say is true.

One would presume that the district that sent Ron Paul to congress would map pretty closely to what you say about these issues... given their support for libertarian Mr. Paul.

So, my question is whether in fact this Texas district Mr. Paul is from is in fact supportive of the agenda that you identified. I would be real surprised if that were the case.

And, presuming it is not the case... then we have to wonder why this would be? Perhaps there are a lot of people that are only partly libertarian... only libertarian to the extent it serves their bias, self interest and pre-conceptions.

And, if this were the case with a significant number of "Libertarian" supporters, wouldn't it further undermine the overall feasibility of achieving a true libertarian government as anything other than a fantasy.

After all, lots of people voted for George Bush cause they believed in smaller and less intrusive government that did not spend money it did not have. We didn't get what we thought we were getting with G Bush... and I am not real sure that we would get real libertartianism even in the best case.
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#112065 - 05/20/09 01:49 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Ardy]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: Ardy

After all, lots of people voted for George Bush cause they believed in smaller and less intrusive government that did not spend money it did not have. We didn't get what we thought we were getting with G Bush... and I am not real sure that we would get real libertartianism even in the best case.



I am quite sure that you wouldn't get libertarianism as a result --- and that Issodhos would be horrified by the results.

Cloud-Cuckooland never turns into cold, hard reality ---- no matter how hard you believe in it.

-
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#112067 - 05/20/09 02:31 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
-

I have driven over much of the US and seen farm land and range land showing the obvious signs of degradation and over-use. People almost always try to get more out of their property than it can sustain over the long term.

The same would be true in the fantasy of selling private rights to sections of the sea for fishermen.

We live in a totalitarian nation and in a totalitarian world, and have done so for a long time already. Many people, I know, prefer not to see this obvious fact, and allow themselves to be soothed by pleasing rhetoric and the empty pageant of so-called "democracy."

If people would throw their illusions overboard, face up to the cold reality of our situation, and roll up their sleeves, we might be able to make some progress toward having "totalitarianism with a human face." Not facing up to the facts means that we will continue to live under totalitarianism with a cold, inhuman face.

If we could manage to have a totalitarianism that is not so anti-human, then we might have some reasonable hope of escaping the totalitarian prison into which we have boxed ourselves.

I give Issodhos credit for having the intelligence and the guts to face up to the fact that our present system is totalitarian, but I think him quite naive to think that libertarianism is a practical way out of our predicament.

In the matter of fishing, for example, what would be effective is to use the totalitarian power of the state to forbid all fishing in the sea for the next hundred years, and to blow any fishing boat out of the water if it attempts to contravene the prohibition.

It would take measures that strong in order to have the oceans regain their former productive equilibrium --- though so much damage has been done already, it is doubtful that it would be the same equilibrium they had before. Some things are lost forever, and cannot be regained.

What is quite certain is that the longer we wait to use totalitarian force to restore the oceans, the worse the final outcome will be.

-
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#112072 - 05/20/09 03:36 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17154
Wow Iss, I thought I was the only one who still referred to Rule .303... Nice touch, that.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#112074 - 05/20/09 03:46 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Snargle Offline
member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 1489
Loc: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Then perhaps that is why there are no productive privately owned farms left in America. I am beginning to feel sorry for all those Mennonite farmers in my neighborhood who foolishly hook up their horses or fire up their tractors year after year to plow dirt depleted by them in the hope of using it up before it is passed on to their children.

The fabulously productive, successful, and affluent Amish farmers of Central Pennsylvania would take extreme umbrage at that statement. Their biggest challenge is not the productivity of their land, but the lack of available acreage for their multitudinous offspring. New Amish settlements are springing up all over other parts of PA, in addition to other states with available agricultural land.
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"To the intelligent man or woman, life appears infinitely mysterious. But the stupid have an answer for every question." - Edward Abbey

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