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#112588 - 05/24/09 12:22 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: itstarted]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7504
Loc: Athens, Ga.
 Originally Posted By: itstarted
"Do you walk to work, or carry your lunch?"
LOL, yeah! I grew up with that saying...

 Originally Posted By: itstarted
itstarted (nervously enters the room)

ummm... I got lost on the first page when liberty and government got mixed in together. My brother-in-law would put the question this way... "Do you walk to work, or carry your lunch?"

Interesting discussion all the way through the 13 pages. Seems to me that the very word "government" puts the lie to all of the definitions I could find. Even the most abstract and "liberal" law, by definition impinges on some "liberty".

What can anyone be "for"... that doesn't become an "against" to someone else.

After reading a few hours worth of essays on the Libertarianism website, I come away with a feeling that "sweetness" is the best description of the general position of the membership.

It seems like the advocates want freedom from government , only until something goes wrong... and then government should step in.

Is this weird of what? Don't make any rules untiil someone gets hurt?


I'm hiding under age, and early onset to account for my vapidity.

... just stopped by to tell you I enjoyed the discourse.

Oh me too.
I've enjoyed it too.
You speak my mind, It. Thanks.
Weird indeed.
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#112591 - 05/24/09 01:26 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Greger
 Quote:

What is a "collective right" and how is it exercised?


A "collective right" really is nothing more than a group of individuals claiming the same individual rights.


When a group of people act in concert to protect an individual right, they are exercising their individual right of association and their individual right to assemble. In so doing, they are engaging in a voluntary collective effort while each exercises her individual right to associate or assemble.
Yours,
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112592 - 05/24/09 01:33 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: itstarted]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: itstarted
itstarted (nervously enters the room)
After reading a few hours worth of essays on the Libertarianism website, ...


the Libertarian website? Are you referring to the website of a political party?
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#112600 - 05/24/09 02:28 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6428
Loc: Florida/Illinois
 Quote:
the Libertarian website? Are you referring to the website of a political party?
Yours,
Issodhos


Note "the Libertarianism website" small" "t"
http://www.libertarianism.com/
;\)


Edited by itstarted (05/24/09 02:32 PM)
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#112614 - 05/24/09 04:07 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sorry, I didn't mean to inject any logic or context back into the thread.


Not to fear, NW Ponderer. You didn't.;-)
Nor, my friend, did you provide any. ;\)
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#112623 - 05/24/09 04:30 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: issodhos]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15504
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
When a group of people act in concert to protect an individual right, they are exercising their individual right of association and their individual right to assemble. In so doing, they are engaging in a voluntary collective effort while each exercises her individual right to associate or assemble.


That's easy for you to say.........;)
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#112627 - 05/24/09 04:40 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
loganrbt Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 5850
Loc: Massaphuggintwoshirts
[quote=Greger]
 Quote:


Later edit: an association is a legal collective not a political collective.



depends on the association; not all are legal constructs. Nor are legal and political the only options for an association. for example, I might associate with illegal aliens in order to sample the cuisines of their native countries. neither legal nor political.

a kind of libertarian approach to dining out.


Edited by loganrbt (05/24/09 04:41 PM)
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#112640 - 05/24/09 06:42 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: loganrbt]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15504
Loc: Florida
That's where we often run in to trouble. Concerning rights
they might be legal rights, or human rights or civil rights, inherent rights, divine rights, inalienable rights, individual or collective rights, property rights or animal rights or even turns to starboard. Which brings to mind another right:
Red Right Return.
One of the most important of the Nautical Rights.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#112652 - 05/24/09 10:04 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: Greger]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
-

Sometimes, when I am downtown walking late at night (Yes, I live in a town of 300,000 people where it is safe to walk alone late at night), I will stop at a red light and just stand there. There is no traffic, there are no cops; but I will stand there obeying the traffic regulations. I am not timid; I just like the fact that the traffic system works! It is a moment of aesthetic satisfaction; I savor the immense intricacy of the social co-operation involved!

Maybe I just have a hive-mind? ;\)

Anyway, other times I just walk across the street against the red light, without a second thought --- so I guess I am not completely a zombie!


Edited by numan (05/24/09 10:07 PM)
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#112657 - 05/24/09 09:40 PM Re: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
It is interesting, my friend, that when we accede to the wishes of the majority, granting some of our native autonomy to the interests of others, that we are deemed "zombies." If they had emotions, I suspect that the real zombies would resent that.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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