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#117799 - 07/01/09 05:08 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: ]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'

I do not agree that Obama should immediately speak out on the issue of gay rights. He should avoid touching that hot wire until the time is ripe.

One of the biggest mistakes of Clinton was getting involved in gay rights so soon after his election. We might have had health insurance in 1992 if it had not been for all the folderol about gays in the military. The issue crippled Clinton, and it set the tone for his entire presidency.

we are in the beginning stages of a catastrophe of historic proportions for the USA. Triage is absolutely essential.

If the Obama administration does not begin moving on this issue soon after the 2010 midterm elections, that is the time to begin nattering about the matter.

.
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#117829 - 07/01/09 07:37 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: numan]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Well Numan, I can appreciate the niceties of politics, however:

1. He ran on the promise of repealing DOMA and DADT;
2. Equal rights are always easier to bargain away when they aren't your rights involved, aren't they?
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You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#117832 - 07/01/09 08:03 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Hekate Offline
member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 1426
While I wasn't surprised that DADT repeal wasn't the first item of action, I was taken aback and disappointed by the DOJ's recent defense of DOMA.

By 2010, Obama will be running for re-election. Will he try to win back LGBT support, or continue to distance himself? If he decides to actively seek support, I hope his administration will have done something of substance to demonstrate its commitment.
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#117834 - 07/01/09 08:18 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Hekate]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Yes, DOJ's brief was insulting to say the least. In his Stonewall reception the other day he seemed to promise action by 2012, hope we don't have to wait that long.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#117865 - 07/01/09 10:46 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Phil Hoskins]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins

Well Numan, I can appreciate the niceties of politics, however:

1. He ran on the promise of repealing DOMA and DADT;
2. Equal rights are always easier to bargain away when they aren't your rights involved, aren't they?



Sorry, I am barbarous enough to prefer things that work rather than things that make me feel good.

I firmly support the proposition that the Ends Justfy the Means.

If you object to the Means, it is simply the case that the Ends were incorrectly formulated.

.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#117877 - 07/01/09 10:28 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: numan]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Quote:
Navy sailors work hand-in-hand with Marines at military bases, and on Tuesday morning, one of those sailors was found dead at Camp Pendleton. Two local gay activists said the death could be an anti-gay hate crime and that they want answers, now.

NBC LA
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#117888 - 07/01/09 11:23 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Phil Hoskins]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16236
I think that the President is taking a measured approach, hoping not to run the risk of pulling a "Clinton" - pushing too hard and getting Congress' back up, which is how DADT came into effect in the first place. So... Defense chief giving 'don't ask, don't tell' a closer look - CNN.
 Quote:
Gates said he is looking at ways to make the policy "more humane," including letting people serve who may have been outed due to vengeance or a jilted lover. The remarks appeared in a transcript the Pentagon released Tuesday.

In addition, Capt. John Kirby, spokesman for Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Wednesday the chairman "supports the idea of a less draconian way of enforcing the policy."

Instituted in 1993, "don't ask, don't tell" ended the military's practice of asking potential service members if they are gay, but it requires the dismissal of openly gay service members.

Gates told reporters traveling with him, "One of the things we're looking at -- is there flexibility in how we apply this law?"


Do I think that this, and the domestic partner regulations, and holding pro-gay events, are enough? No, but they are moves toward making the issue less controversial, and I agree with numan are moving toward a bolder approach by 2010. We forget, I think, in the heady moments following Iowa, and New Hampshire, and Vermont, that the movement has not always been one way. After all, this thread was started as a result of Prop 8. It is hard to have patience, but it is required to be completely successful. Of course, that is a very difficult message for those whose civil rights are being ignored and even denied by so many.
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#117957 - 07/02/09 04:12 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: numan]
Jeffro Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 605
Loc: San Francisco
I understand the position Obama is in. But, he put himself there, didn't he? And he put himself there with full knowledge of everything else he was going to have to fix before he even strapped on the tool belt. It's not like the economy, our standing in the world, the healthcare system and the war(s) were big secrets that were revealed after he got the keys to the house. He even said that he did not support same sex marriage, so no bone was thrown in that direction, he was savvy enough not to put himself in that fight, but he did speak out against DOMA and DADT.

They say that timing is everything and perhaps this was not the right time for all of this civil rights stuff, but the speed in which this has progressed surprised even me. I am still scratching my head over Iowa. I have waited, patiently, for the majority of my life for something as simple as equality and to be treated as a full citizen of the country of my birth. I celebrated every minor victory, but always with a touch of cynicism and with the proviso that "the time just isn't right for something radical". The gay community has worked tirelessly for equality and it has always come in fits and starts but, any minor move in that direction was always met with elation. If all the challenges we have faced were placed end to end, the longest stretches would consist of heartbreaking defeats.

Through it all, we have been one of the most patient and understanding groups out there. We can hope that when someone calls us faggots and dykes while beating us to a pulp that the perpetrators will be severely punished, and they will - in some states. We can adopt children - in some states but not in others, we can keep our jobs and homes - in some states but not in others. We can form some kind of legal unions - in some states but not in others. We can visit our seriously ill partners - in some states but not in others. We accepted this. This was the way it should be, since we are not normal.

The biggest struggles have not been fought in courts, the biggest battles have been, and are still being, fought in public. The absolute hatred and vicious attacks, both verbal and physical, happen every single day in our lives, and sometimes we are so filled with self-loathing that we participate in making ourselves less than human.

In all of this, we have generally been good little gays, still celebrating the little victories and quietly bemoaning the crushing defeats. Getting back up and trying again next time. The acceptance of same sex marriage in some states accelerated everything. The passage of Prop 8 in California was one defeat too many for some of us. We got angry. It was the last straw for some of us. The anger was not some typical gay community reaction to defeat. We did not shrug our shoulders and say "oh well, maybe next time". Prop 8 was an assault and it happened the same night we were celebrating a President that led us to believe that things would be different now.

Those who say the time is not right are not paying attention. The gay community is more outspoken now than anytime since the AIDS crisis. We are being attacked more now for being mean to the religious who worked tirelessly and lied blatantly to make us all just go away. I have read way too many comments from people who do not understand any of it. That, if we are to expect tolerance then we need to practice tolerance. We are being told by people who have never been called a faggot, that we are hateful. We are being told "you lost, give it up".

During Pride weekend, here in San Francisco, vandals set fire to the big pink triangle on display on Twin Peaks. That's never happened before.

The idea that we should quietly wait may have, at one time, been more palatable to us older gays who are used to hearing it, but the younger gays are not going to accept inequality. Times are changing and changing rapidly. There is no good time for this fight. I know, I've been waiting for "the right time" for at least 30 years. My mere existence has been blamed for the failure of some politician's careers because they had the temerity to acknowledged reality and tried to make things right and failed. They failed Not because what they were trying to do was wrong, but because the people who were wrong had louder voices and more clout.

My advice for anyone who thinks we need to wait and be patient, is to take 30 years of your lives and wait for the right time to be seen as equal in the Country of your birth. It's not so bad, every time they throw you a crumb, you can have a fabulous party!

In the meantime, you might want to keep in mind that, telling an historically maligned minority that the time is not "ripe" for their rights, might come off as just a little bit patronizing.
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We are constantly invited to be who we are. Henry David Thoreau

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#117960 - 07/02/09 04:22 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Jeffro]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#117963 - 07/02/09 04:24 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Jeffro]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41041
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
 Originally Posted By: Jeffro
I understand the position Obama is in. But, he put himself there, didn't he? And he put himself there with full knowledge of everything else he was going to have to fix before he even strapped on the tool belt.

Two words: Rick Warren

(We shoulda read the tea leaves then... ;\) )
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