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#123208 - 08/12/09 08:47 PM Re: ! [Re: olyve]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
apparently iss, you cannot accept the reality that people are fed up with profit mongering at the expense of their own well being. i know no one who is in favor of reform that is opposed to making a fair profit but they are not in favor of the institutional raping and pillaging that big pharm et al seems capable of executing and finds favor for in washington. your rugged individualism is fine and i do believe you should embrace it, thrive on it and live as a shining example of the rand-ian ideal, but do not mistake this current wave of support for reform for anything but a whole lot of folks fed up with the illusion of free market solutions.
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#123212 - 08/12/09 09:20 PM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: Ma_Republican]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican

The government cannot be trusted, this hasn't changes since King George. It has become especially bad in recent years.


I am curious if this applies universally to all govenments... or only our own "system"

As regards to health care, it seems that there a good number of other countries that have different political and medical care systems. And in general, it seems like the places where people are most satisfied with the medical care system they have also happen to be the places where the government plays a much larger role in the medical care system.

Just off hand I cannot think of a single example of a totally free market medical care system.... anywhere. Which seems a bit peculiar if one assumes that the free market arrangement is the arrangement that provides highest quality, most satisfactory medical care and most affordable medical care.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#123219 - 08/12/09 09:59 PM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: Ma_Republican]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21132
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Quote:
There is a certain segment of Congress that would like nothing better than to crush private business

Name one member and provide evidence. You are just poisoning the discussion with the kind of hyperbolic comment.

And from someone who says he believes in citizen control of government. How can we ever do that when what takes place instead of honest discussion is invective, hyperbole, false and emotional statements.

I fully acknowledge it happens as much from some on the left and that not all Republicans or those on the right use such tactics.

But when it happens from anyone it just makes citizen decision making very difficult.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#123242 - 08/13/09 12:11 AM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: Ma_Republican]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
There is a certain segment of Congress that would like nothing better than to crush private business.

I would tend to agree that there are many New Left influenced modern liberals and any number of Congress critters who would love to "crush" the "private" out of private business, but I think that they do not hate businesses/corporations ... they just hate it that they do not have complete control over the money businesses generate. In fact, I think they actually love the corporate model (it being so closely structured in the layered style of government entities) and simply lust for, in their voracious greed for what is not theirs, every penny of profit generated by them. Indeed, I think it is an extremely fascistic attraction many many on the left have for corporations. If a magic wand were waved today (perhaps it is being waved!) and all the before-tax and before-dividends profits were to go directly into the US Treasury, the rabid haters of business would suddenly become businesses most ardent lovers. Funny folks -- people.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#123246 - 08/13/09 12:21 AM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: issodhos]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7626
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
boy, i would love a real world, concrete example of this with at least one source to back up all of this. speculation can be fun but since you folks seem to be speaking with such authority, something solid to stand on would just make it that much more fascinating.
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#123261 - 08/13/09 02:09 AM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: 2wins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: 2wins
boy, i would love a real world, concrete example of this with at least one source to back up all of this. speculation can be fun but since you folks seem to be speaking with such authority, something solid to stand on would just make it that much more fascinating.


As it is an opinion, I would have to first see a pattern of you demanding examples from those with whom you tend to agree, when they express a personal opinion, 2wins.

I wonder how many folks, even possibly in this forum, would support a 90 to 100 percent corporate income tax and elimination of all tax credits on "Big Oil", "Big Pharma", "Big Insurance" or even "Big Tobacco"?
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#123262 - 08/13/09 03:29 AM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21132
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
I will ask again, who are these people to whom you refer issodhos. Spraying doo doo across a canvas doesn't make art and spewing generalized "I think" is about the same thing.

Name one, one person and give an example of what you attribute to them or just give it up man. Sickening, really putrid.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#123269 - 08/13/09 08:27 AM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: Ma_Republican]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6697
Loc: North San Diego County
 Quote:
In the nutty left we have Nancy Pelosi and I am afraid Barack Obama. Pelosi has all of the subtlty of a sledge hammer where Obama is much more like venom, silent and sometimes comforting.


Remember this thread:
The Political Compass

As you will note from the graph, President Obama actually falls in the Right/Authoritarian quadrent, though not quite so much of either as many other politicians.

Characterizing Obama as "nutty left" is nothing but hyperbole. I suspect you find him "sometimes comforting" because he is actually a pretty moderate fellow.

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#123271 - 08/13/09 09:39 AM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6438
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
I will ask again, who are these people to whom you refer issodhos. Spraying doo doo across a canvas doesn't make art and spewing generalized "I think" is about the same thing.

Name one, one person and give an example of what you attribute to them or just give it up man. Sickening, really putrid.


Phil,
Nan has become very anti-business since Obama took office. She has used terms like evil and criminal to describe businesses that do not toe the line she wants to draw. She has particularly demonized Wall Street for being greedy (what a surprize; greed by stock broakers) and insurance companies. She has the bully pulpit and is determined to use it sully the reputation of capitalism. Let's not forget talk radio, the only segment of the news media that can turn a profit.

I pretty much admit that the Rep are scum, but this puppy love for all things Dem is almost humorous. Let's call a duck a duck, the leadership in the house are just slightly right of Marx, and almost as nasty as Stalin. If they had a choice between socialism and capitalism, they would choose socialism. Thankfully, the rank and file are mostly moderates.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#123272 - 08/13/09 09:44 AM Re: Health care reform--- The elephant in the room. [Re: Ma_Republican]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7503
Loc: Athens, Ga.
 Quote:
If You Don't Want the Public Option, Get the Hell Out of the Way

The reason why they are paying so much is they know that once the USA abandons its totally imoral "health care is a for-profit business" and not a "right of citizenship" they think they are in trouble. Actually they won't be. Good businesses learn how to identify flaws and provide solutions to them. In Britain (where I am from) we have the same wait-for-ever problems of the Canadian health care system. Guess what? If this is a problem to you there is a myriad of chooses of private health care supplementary insurance packages that will move you to the head of the queue - for a fee of course. So actually we have the best of both worlds. A single-payer system funded by tax revenues that means nobody can be denied essential health care services. For those who for whatever reason cannot wait for health care they can pay to speed up the process. The insurance companies are still doing fine!
Huffington....last one down on the page
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"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."

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