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#141471 - 02/19/10 01:22 AM The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6387
Loc: Florida/Illinois
Joe Stack's Manifesto-full transcript

I suppose it depends on what your definition of "insane" is.
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#141479 - 02/19/10 03:35 AM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: itstarted]
Slipped Mickey Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/23/99
Posts: 12226
Loc: Land of Burnt Dirt
Jeez, there has to more there for me to call him crazy.
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#141480 - 02/19/10 03:42 AM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13153
Loc: Whittier, California
The real question is, how bad does it have to get before we start seeing platoons of "Joe Stacks" out there.
Right now, most Americans see his actions and rightly believe that this is the work of a madman.

Are the powers that be so smug as to think that they can allow things to get so bad that most Americans start IDENTIFYING with Joe Stack, thinking that they'll be safely in orbit above the fray?

That would be a very serious mistake on their part.
Recorded history shows that once a corner is turned, no one is safe, even the elites.
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#141482 - 02/19/10 05:08 AM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: Slipped Mickey]
AustinRanter Offline
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Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 3643
Loc: Austin, Texas
Originally Posted By: Slipped Mickey
Jeez, there has to more there for me to call him crazy.


Originally Posted By: Itstarted
I suppose it depends on what your definition of "insane" is.


I agree with you both, Mick and Bob...

Joe has lived out much of his adult life making some bad choices and decisions. Let's just say that Joe has spent a number of years digging a deeper and deeper hole for himself.

However, he wasn't a sociopath or psychopath. He wasn't another Timothy McVey.

I'm not at all defending him or condone what he did. He hurt people and he left his wife and children virtually homeless.

Joe had problems, can't deny that. But Joe finally broke an had a melt down.

We're in the middle of hard times. And I think common sense tells us that there are many more like Joe all around the country.

What Joe did was a horrible thing. I just hope others in his situation don't go to the same extremes.
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#141493 - 02/19/10 12:37 PM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: AustinRanter]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13153
Loc: Whittier, California
There's no question that this guy could have made much better choices all along. I know several software engineers, more than one of them have said that it can be tricky dealing with the IRS, but who hasn't met a business owner who hasn't said that?

But if you look over his rant carefully, he says that several events drove him over the edge. Joe has to take responsibility for his choices, but clearly more and more Americans are being shown that NOT EVERYONE has to do this.
Some are allowed to make bad choices, with their money, AND WITH OURS, and still skate away free as a bird, because they are "too big to fail".

And let's not fool ourselves, corporations ARE persons, in every respect, now more than ever, so some corporations are also allowed to make bad choices, with their money and with ours, and no penalty, no foul, no consequences.

Part of Joe's anguish also had to do with learning that he was held to a much more exacting and painful standard, perhaps simply because he was small, and some others, were "large".

Joe wasn't fully convinced that the size issue had any relevant impact on the overall fairness of the law in our once great and just nation.
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#141497 - 02/19/10 01:19 PM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9715
Loc: Ireland
freepers and the KOSmonauts are all trying to spin this guy into the others camp.

sickening, the attempt to gain political advantage from this
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#141502 - 02/19/10 01:33 PM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: Schlack]
Slipped Mickey Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/23/99
Posts: 12226
Loc: Land of Burnt Dirt
I know a small business owner whose accountant stood behind him with the IRS. Problem was the IRS returned tax money and said my friend's business had paid too much. His accountant told him to write a letter to the IRS and send the money back. The IRS wouldn't take it and sent the money back. The accountant told my friend to put the money in the bank and never to touch it - ever. Three years later the IRS demanded the money and attempted to impose a fine. The accountant went to bat and in the end the IRS accepted the money AND the interest on the money, which the dutiful accountant had my friend sock away each year. But for the accountant it may have been a different story.

"Either the government fears the people or the people fear the government." Is there any doubt where who is doing the fearing these days?
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#141509 - 02/19/10 02:47 PM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: Slipped Mickey]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15967
Here was the sobering thought that I had when I read this account: I have read similar things on this very forum. There is truth and unreality in almost everything that Joe wrote - clearly he has been unhinged but rational for some time. There is a personality type that blames everything on others, and Joe was clearly one of those. It is pervasive among the TEA partiers. At the same time, there were particular points that he made that are so very true, especially the part about separate tax provisions (the Microsoft provision) that were put in for the benefit of big guys to deliberately disadvantage the little guys like Joe.

So, Joe had legitimate complaints, and TEA partiers have some (although I still think most are the "usual suspects"). His response to it was not rational, though. The poor employee he murdered, his wife and stepdaughter, were victims of his narcissism. Might we see more displays of desperation? Yes. There are enough unstable people in our population, we see it every day. I don't think it should be given any more credence than the NJ man who threw his 3 month old into the river over a custody dispute, or Amy Bishop who murdered 3 colleagues because she was unqualified for tenure (and apparently her brother 24 years ago, now THERE is a psychopath). There are selfish, evil, crazy people in the world, and they will always find a convenient excuse for violently expiating their own shortcomings on someone else.
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#141526 - 02/19/10 04:55 PM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: ]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40892
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
When I read the manifesto yesterday, Joe's rantings are not that unusual from the everyday man-on-the-street.

Even two IRS agents can have differing interpretations of the same rules.

A lot of Tea Partiers think the 16th Amendment which gave the government authority to tax Americans is illegal because Ohio wasn't legally a State when the Amendment was passed in the Ohio Legislature because Congress never confirmed Ohio's entry into the Union as it had been done with other states.

During Ohio's 150th anniversary in the 1950s, this oversight was noted by historians and the President (Eisenhower?) made a declaration making Ohio retroactively a State back to the 1800s and the Tea Partiers are saying that given this historical faux pas the 16th Amendment is illegal.

It is an interesting side-note to American State history to say the least.
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#141530 - 02/19/10 05:33 PM Re: The "Insane" Joe Stack Manifesto [Re: ]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6387
Loc: Florida/Illinois
Quote:
There are selfish, evil, crazy people in the world, and they will always find a convenient excuse for violently expiating their own shortcomings on someone else.


There's a lot to consider here... I wish it were so cut and dried. When we talk about selfishness and causes, it is well to consider that we welcome some decisions, and reject others.

In this case, it comes down to personal selfishness. A person totally convinced that there are evil forces posted against the middle class. I believe that he saw what he did as being the only effective way to "wake up" the "victims" that he saw as being persecuted. That others died, he might have considered as collateral damage, much in the same way that we have taught ourselves to look at the innocent women and children that die on a regular basis, in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other fields of battle.

So it was individual selfishness... and it resulted in death to innocents. Madness? ... or a deviation from the norms we use to asses culpability? The selfish people that murder doctors that perform abortions. Some measure this by the same standards as Stack, yet there are those who consider them heroes, who have prevented the deaths of those yet unborn.

And then there is the matter of group consciousness, in the active pursuit of policies that they consider necessary to society as a whole. Whether the Posse Comitatus, the Ku Klux Klan, the Taliban, Al Quaida, or the United States decision to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

Group consciousness that somehow transcends the actions of a "Mad", "Selfish" individual, who transgressed for the sure and certain cause in which he believed. Yet the group decision to take even more lives is somehow made right by the concurrence of a majority, or a loud minority.

As we wait to see whether the United States will drop the bunker buster bombs on Iranian atomic research centers, perhaps we should ask the same questions about how civilized peoples obtain compliance with policies that they feel to be right and good. What happens when there is no apparent "other way"?

I seem to recall something that starts, "When in the course of human events...".

So here's the question. How many people does it take to right a perceived wrong? At what point does it become okay to make a bloody and public statement (including violence) when it appears that all accepted means have failed.

Or perhaps it comes down to just the saving of lives (nuclear bombing of Japan)... If that is the only justification, then what about saving civilization, or existing under the rule of a tyrant, or accepting slavery? At what point is collateral damage aceptable?

I think of the cases where a man loses his wife, or his child to the hands of a murderer, where the murderer is set free in a jury trial, or a legal mistake on the part of the prosecution. I think of those who will die because of a corporate decision that the drugs to save them are too expensive to allow any but the richest people to obtain.

As the newspapers bring more attention to the problems faced by a have/have not society, how many more desperate people will become Insane, or Selfish, or crazy. Are these people really evil?

Are we ready to measure all others by the same measure we use for ourselves? Should we... Should we... be compliant to societal norms? Should the indigent be held to the same moral standard as ourselves... despite mental problems, learning disabilities, or physical deficiencies? The fact that we might be able to go into a survival mode and exist through hard times, does not mean that all could do this.

I find myself a little hung up on the matter of concurrence. Like how many people does it take to make the really big decisions. I have read through the "Insurrection" book cited in another thread... three times, and at each reading, find myself conflicted over the moral decisions posited in the overview of the societal change that we have seen over the past 20 years. memo: insurrection

So back to Joe Stack... I would guess that in having made the decision to make a moral statement that would shock others into action... he failed. It is already a third page story that is now completely forgotten by the media that ran hours and hours of real time coverage. I believe that he will share the same notoriety accorded to other murderers such as Hanson. that the world will go on with hardly a second thought. At the same time, I expect that this is just the tip of the iceberg.


Edited by itstarted (02/19/10 05:42 PM)
Edit Reason: add link
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