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#146845 - 04/17/10 03:09 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13793
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We need to try some new social engineering.

Or maybe we need to go back to the social engineering that worked for centuries.
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#146847 - 04/17/10 03:23 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40433
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Sounds like what your city needs to do is run all the poor single people out of town. Since only poor kids with single parents are misbehaving. Maybe they are the ones who need to be locked in the FEMA Gulags.

It's the all cognacs are made from grapes, but not all grapes become cognac, thingy.

Not all lower-socioeconomic families produce kids with behavioral problems and not all families with higher incomes produce stellar kids.

Having stated this, in our situation, and I'm sure it's just unique to our community, the kids that are causing problems are coming from single-parent homes with a lower-socioeconomic status.

Next door to our neighborhood is an apartment complex where the kids who do cause problems live.

Our neighborhood has an agreement with the firm that manages the apartment complex that if we capture a photo of a kid that lives there doing something unruly in our neighborhood, the parent's lease is automatically broken and the parent is given a 30 day notice.

So far we've only had to use that device once.

Once is all it takes for word to spread not to mess up. There are a few kids / parents that live there that haven't gotten that message. I'm gathering photos to take to the apartment complex manager next week.
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#146849 - 04/17/10 03:49 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13793
Loc: Florida
Well, throwing their families out in the streets sure as hell beats paddling the kids. And will probably go a long way towards improving their behavior. rolleyes

The economic pressures on single parents can be enormous. They have little time for the quality parenting that I received
in a long gone society where a single income family could survive and one parent could make raising the children a career.
Back then single parents were fairly rare.

Nonetheless you seem to agree that the best thing to do to improve behavior is to run the economically challenged single parents out of your elite community. Perhaps your city could require that it's residence have a certain income before they are allowed to move in. And of course if their income drops they would be forced to leave. Is that the sort of Social Engineering that will improve child behavior?
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#146850 - 04/17/10 04:02 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40433
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Well, throwing their families out in the streets sure as hell beats paddling the kids. And will probably go a long way towards improving their behavior. rolleyes

...Nonetheless you seem to agree that the best thing to do to improve behavior is to run the economically challenged single parents out of your elite community.

This agreement between our neighborhood and the apartment complex management company has nothing to do with the City.

The one instance that device was used, the kid was involved in a stabbing of another kid, said stabbing took place in our neighborhood, and the kid wouldn't cooperate with the police.

Hmm

Why would we want someone like that walking in our neighborhood and why would the apartment complex want someone like that as a tenant?

Clearly this device is used on a case-by-case instance and it is not applied broadly. What's the problem with removing inappropriate behavior from your community?

Society does it all-the-time with sex offenders and habitual arsonists. Hmm
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#146854 - 04/17/10 04:31 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: pdx rick]
AustinRanter Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 3643
Loc: Austin, Texas
Peer Networking is where it's at today. Kids turn to each other for problem solving - and in many cases to get their nuturing.

Since kids don't have experiential problem solving and developed critical thinking skills, their behavioral issues are like a domino effected and is having and impact on substantial portion of kids. Many of todays kids are way more likely to keep doing the same things over and over again expecting different results. After repeatedly making the wrong choices and decisions, they begin to redirect their failure elsewhere. And those who they perceive are the reasons for their failure...are gonna pay in one way or another.

In essence, we have a society where kids are teaching kids about values and beliefs.

Now, how did it get like this?
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#146855 - 04/17/10 04:46 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: AustinRanter]
Hekate Offline
member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 1426
Originally Posted By: AustinRanter
Now, how did it get like this?


One contributing factor: our national religion, rampant consumerism. Every family needs a flat screen TV & computer in every room, 2-3 cars in their 2-3 car garages, and oodles of other clutter. All the adults work, all the time, to pay for it all. Kids get ignored.
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#146867 - 04/17/10 07:31 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: Hekate]
Mellowicious Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 9573
Loc: The Great American Desert
I think these arguments are dangerously simplistic. They've also been expressed for years and years with a very clear next piece that no one here, so far, has tacked on, but we all know where this argument heads.

Rampant consumerism is a serious problem, yes, and it's a national problem, yes, but as Hekate notes, not all children with problems come from homes with 2-3 cars in the garage; a lot of them come from homes that are lucky to have 2-3 meals for each child. Rampant consumerism is a symptom of a society whose values are skewed.

Hitting a kid may have "worked" in the past but it is not particular civilized. It also doesn't work in the present. I have a friend who has a family tradition of, let's say, going upside someone's head when necessary. At least a couple of her grandkids are in serious trouble. At least a couple of people in each generation are estranged.

As for the number of parents, well, we all know that quality is more important than quantity, and while having two parents is certainly easier on the parents, it's no guarantee of a good outcome with the kids. The same parents and same circumstances can result in one lawyer and one defendant from the same family.

I try to be very careful about saying how kids should be raised because I've never done it - and the main reason I didn't do it was that I knew I wouldn't be very good at it. But I do know that kids are different, and what works with one won't work with another.

I think the generalities are just way too broad; this is a much more complex and important issue.
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#146875 - 04/17/10 11:07 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: Mellowicious]
Almost Naomi Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 2378
Loc: Vermont
I see no reason why there should be a difference in how one treats another human being, regardless of age. Kids deserve at least as much respect as adults.

Should adults start smacking each other when they get frustrated with their peers? (Picture it. Congress, court rooms, etc.)

Physical force is a quick way out with kids, but it doesn't solve the problem and may even drive the problem deeper. Nor will the 'need' to hit be addressed if teachers are given permission to follow this route.

JMO, but any teacher who thinks hitting kids is a good answer, shouldn't be a teacher.
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#146877 - 04/17/10 11:28 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: Almost Naomi]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7503
Loc: Athens, Ga.
I agree with you, Naomi. Totally.

Originally Posted By: California rick

Not all lower-socioeconomic families produce kids with behavioral problems and not all families with higher incomes produce stellar kids.
Yes, just remember back to the school shootings. Most if not all, if I'm remembering correctly were done by upper middle class kids in upwardly mobile communities.
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#146879 - 04/17/10 11:37 PM Re: Texas city revives paddling for misbehaving [Re: olyve]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40433
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: California rick
Not all lower-socioeconomic families produce kids with behavioral problems and not all families with higher incomes produce stellar kids.

Originally Posted By: olyve
Yes, just remember back to the school shootings. Most if not all, if I'm remembering correctly were done by upper middle class kids in upwardly mobile communities.

Exactly my thought when I wrote that. The kids at Columbine High School were from Littleton, Colorado - a rather affluent area located southwest of Denver.
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