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#172534 - 01/13/11 06:57 PM Cold fusion demonstration?
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Cold fusion demonstration?


hmmmmm



Quote:
The Journal Of Nuclear Physics (Peer Reviewed online journal) is announcing:

Saturday january 15th Sergio Focardi and Andrea Rossi will make a press conference online about the presentation of the 10 kilowatt module reactor: with 100 of such modules is made the 1 MW plant in construction.

The press conference will start at 10 a.m. Italian Time.

It is a public demonstration of a significant level of power. The Nissan Leaf electric car has an 80 kilowatt electric motor

Here is the Italian press release. il Resto del Carlino is an Italian local newspaper based in Bologna, and is one of the oldest newspapers in Italy. Circulation 165,000.
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#172535 - 01/13/11 08:35 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
If that's true, and if there really is such a net gain of energy, this will be the biggest story of the past 1000 years. Nickel is fairly abundant, about 0.02 percent of the Earth's crust, which doesn't sound like much but there is a LOT of crust.

The claim is that this production of energy takes place below 1000K, which is about 1350 F, which places it well within current technological capability.

If it's true there's gonna be some REALLY rich Italians. Bill Gates will be a pauper in comparison.

And the whole world will change.

I sure hope it's true.
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#172536 - 01/13/11 08:41 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
california rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36238
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Some good news to read about for a change. smile
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#172538 - 01/13/11 08:49 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
If
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#172549 - 01/13/11 10:39 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36238
Loc: Portland, Oregon
In the past year, there has been many different enterprises showing promising methods so that we can change our reliance on current energy resources. Replacement of old energy resources is bound to become a reality at some point.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#172551 - 01/14/11 12:30 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
An interesting article indeed. I'm supplying a Wiki link to "Cold Fusion" so folks can get up to speed concerning what the hooha is all about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

A cold fusion experiment usually includes:
a metal, such as palladium or nickel, in bulk, thin films or powder;
deuterium and/or hydrogen, in the form of water, gas or plasma; and
an excitation in the form of electricity, magnetism, temperature, pressure, laser beam(s), or of acoustic waves.[76] ...extract from Wiki link

What's interesting about the Focardi-Rossi experiment is they are using nickel in lieu of palladium which is far more plentiful in the earth's crust, with the fusing of the hydrogen creating a unique short-lived unstable copper isotope to facilitate the cold fusion process.

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=338

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

Granted any reader could fetch the links, but I've done so for convenience. Take the time to read and digest the material and in short order you'll become a subject matter expert on "cold fusion" experiments and nuclear fusion as a whole. Don't hesitate to fetch imbedded sublinks concerning various subject references.

The key as to why this ultimately might work is that the quasi-gaseous copper does not adhere to the Mossbauer effect as well as to solid copper itself. This effect which functions well with solids, but not with gases ultimately allowing a net gain concerning the release of far more energy from the output than input to the experiment. In copper's case it doesn't apply to either the solid or gaseous state. Of course this release is far less than the instantaneous release of energy from a fusion bomb detonation. So it will take a number of these generators in tandem to provide a significant output, but just the same it's almost free energy from nothing in terms of resources vs. the complexity of the devices and minimal radiation hazards.

How these two stumbled across this interaction between hydrogen and nickel creating a gaseous short-lived isotope of copper is beyond me, but if they pull this off it could be the greatest discovery in modern times. Once you go beyond elements heavier than iron or nickel then fusion is not possible whether of a "hot" or "cold" reaction basis with more energy being absorbed than radiated from the reaction with the elements involved.

In fact the success of this experiment will cause a major disruption to the extent that the traditional nuclear power generating industry, the oil patch along with king coal will no longer reign supreme.

We just might see Saudi Sheiks standing on street corners with cardboard signs..."Need spare change to support former lifestyle"... : ))

Carl Nemo **==




Edited by Carl Nemo (01/14/11 01:55 AM)

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#172552 - 01/14/11 03:08 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
mama Offline
member

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1499
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
In fact the success of this experiment will cause a major disruption to the extent that the traditional nuclear power generating industry, the oil patch along with king coal will no longer reign supreme.



ThumbsUp "They" can "kiss OUR asses!" ["About TIME!"]
_________________________
------------------------------
You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time,but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.[A. Lincoln]

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#172555 - 01/14/11 08:43 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: mama]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
If this experiment fails, we can always focus our scientific and industrial might on the existing cold fusion power generator. It is up and running (been powering the entire Earth for decades, at least!); we simply need to improve our energy capture and distribution systems.
It IS problematic that no one owns this generator, so it can't be of much potential benefit to Capitalism and the Economy.
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#172560 - 01/14/11 09:06 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11703
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll

It IS problematic that no one owns this generator, so it can't be of much potential benefit to Capitalism and the Economy.


There is an idea... privatize the sun.... think of the benefits that would inherently flow to mankind through such an arrangement. Think of all the innovation that has been stifled simply because we have neglected to apply freemarket economics to this resource.
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"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#172561 - 01/14/11 09:08 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Sorry, this one went over my head. Are you referring to the Sun? It is hardly "cold"!

But I definitely agree that we should be doing far more to utilize solar energy.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#172563 - 01/14/11 09:27 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
By the time it travels 93,000,000 miles through space it is colder than what them Italians boys have got. Hell, you can stand right in front of it!
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"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#172564 - 01/14/11 10:21 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Schlack
If


That's a mighty big "if", Schlack.
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#172565 - 01/14/11 10:42 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
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Originally Posted By: Greger

That's a mighty big "if", Schlack.

Droll, Greger, very droll !
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#172566 - 01/14/11 10:54 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Originally Posted By: logtroll
By the time it travels 93,000,000 miles through space it is colder than what them Italians boys have got. Hell, you can stand right in front of it!

You seem to evince a rather peculiar knowledge of physics.

The radiation of the Sun is not changed one whit by its passage through 150 million kilometres of space.

Of the 4 million tonnes per second of matter which the Sun turns into radiation, the Earth intercepts a mere one part in two billion of that radiation---only the equivalent of 50 megatonnes of TNT per second of energy.

That is why temperatures on Earth are so clement.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#172577 - 01/14/11 01:02 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
That's what I said -- cold fusion!
And I don't claim to be a physician, ah'm an enguneer. Let's use that 50mgt/sec of free juice from our god Re, that great fusion reactor in the sky.
(Now yer gonna tell me the sun ain't in the sky, right?)
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#172580 - 01/14/11 01:19 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11703
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Cold Fusion--- I am skeptical based on past disappointments, and the hunch that if it were all that easy, it is likely that we would have these plants in widespread operation already.

That said, I am unusually willing to be proven wrong.
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#172590 - 01/14/11 06:21 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: Schlack
If


That's a mighty big "if", Schlack.


unfortunately i fear not big enough
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#172592 - 01/14/11 06:27 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ardy]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Cold Fusion--- I am skeptical based on past disappointments, and the hunch that if it were all that easy, it is likely that we would have these plants in widespread operation already.


not necessarily, a lot of great ideas appear to be simple, but only after someone else has pointed it out.

however im am highly skeptical about any such claims.
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#172597 - 01/14/11 09:39 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: North San Diego County
Creating a fission reaction is really very simple too: You just put enough of the right stuff close together, and it starts putting out heat. No need for high pressure, high temperatures, containment, or much of anything. The tricky part is in the materials, since the needed isotope is generally very rare in naturally occurring uranium.

I am sceptical about any claims for cold fusion until I see somebody actually generating enough excess heat to run a light bulb or two for a couple of months without refueling or recharging. Or generating the equivalent amount of power over a shorter interval.

But if it does ever work, I won't be surprised if it requires very specific materials. For example, nickel, platinum, or palladium in just the right alloy with other elements. Or perhaps in just the right form, like a very fine particle-sized powder. Look at the Firefly battery: It's just a standard lead-acid battery but it weighs much less and has much better performance because one or both of the electrodes is like a lead-plated sponge.

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#172637 - 01/15/11 01:35 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Originally Posted By: logtroll

And I don't claim to be a physician, ah'm an enguneer.

I admire you.

I think you are very brave to confess that in an open forum.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#172673 - 01/15/11 08:04 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
I decided to followup the experiment results. Evidently the original date of January 15 was incorrect and it was performed yesterday on January 14. I've secured a link that provides a sublink that discusses the progress of the experiment throughout the day courtesy of Daniele Passerini and covered by Creative Commons License.

http://pesn.com/2011/01/14/9501743_10_kW...ry_15_in_Italy/

You can fetch the detailed account by clicking on the yellow box within this master link.

Maybe I'm a permafrost pessimist when it comes to experiments of this nature especially when the inventors/discoverers refuse to allow an independent lab examine the experiment in detail due to 'proprietary' concerns. Hopefully they've taken out a preliminary patent application for their discovery to protect their interests and can have the second opinion lab sign non disclosure agreements etc.concerning the detailed workings of the device other than the results predicated on whatever science and mathematical treatise does support the experiment.

This may turn out to be another bust since I read that 'undisclosed' investors were lured into this scheme to construct these reactor vessels etc. There's something primitive and "Rube Goldbergish" about the setup of the experiment. Of course this is no doubt low budget research and not done on the grand scale of a U.S. Department of Energy operation as found at Los Alamos and other high tech U.S. labs.

A yellow flag was raised on my behalf when Rossi stated:

"Therefore in this type of technology the problem of material consumption is not here with an ounce of nickel we can get 1,000 billion KW." ...extract from experiment coverage quoted from Rossi

Note:

Fusing 1 gram of hydrogen in a p-p fusion process converts into 0.9929 grams of helium plus 6.4 x 1018 erg of energy--exactly 0.71 percent of the original 1 gram of hydrogen times c2. In what form does the energy appear? In the various steps, several gamma-ray photons are created and degraded by absorption and reemission into many photons having the same total energy. Also, some of the material particles created have large kinetic energies, which they will soon redistribute to other particles by collisions. Thus both radiant energy and heat energy come from the mass that is lost in these thermonuclear fusion processes.

Therefore:

. 0071 grams of matter converted to energy = 6.4 x 10 18 ergs converts to 6.4 x 10 11 joules = 1.7778 x10 8 watt hours / 1000 = 177780 kwhrs note: one joule = one watt second Ergs are converted to Joules by the multiplication of 1 x10 -7 ergs = watt seconds /60 = watt minutes /60 = watt hours /1000 = kwhrs

There are 28.349... grams in an Avoirdupois ounce (re: ounce of nickel) then multiply our derived 177780 kwhrs x 28.349 we get 5,039,885.2 kwhrs of power produced, but a long way from the speculated one billion kwhrs from the fusion of one ounce of cold fused nickel as opposed to hot fused hydrogen...? / : |

Maybe I missed something and this an matter/antimatter annihilation reactor... : ))

Enjoy the links and feel free to share you thoughts concerning the outcome.

Carl Nemo **==


Edited by Carl Nemo (01/15/11 09:42 PM)

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#172678 - 01/15/11 09:22 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
The videos appear not to be working unfortunately.

I somehow doubt this is an earth shattering breakthrough
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#172681 - 01/15/11 09:45 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
Hi Schlack,

Here's the link to an account of the experiment throughout 14Jan2011.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/01/bolognia-14111-cronaca-test-fusione_14.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522focardi%2522%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Dqdr:w%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1

I just fetched the link and it came up fine from the master link I posted. It doesn't post as 'hot' on RR, so just copy and paste in your Go bar field then go. It's an interesting account of what just might be a 'snake oil' deal.

Carl Nemo **==


Edited by Carl Nemo (01/15/11 09:47 PM)

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#172684 - 01/15/11 10:26 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Thanks Carl..

Quote:
The machine - replies Rossi - consumes picograms (thousandths of a billionth of a gram) of nickel and hydrogen to produce kilowatts. Therefore in this type of technology the problem of material consumption is not here with an ounce of nickel we can get 1,000 billion KW.


hmmmmm,

it does seem far too good to be true!

I dont have the technical expertise to understand the hows of this.
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#172696 - 01/16/11 10:00 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
What's all this about grams of pico de gayo and nickels?
I thought we were talking about coal fusion, not paying for a Mexican lunch.
Clean coal, Dig, Baby, Dig!!
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#172700 - 01/16/11 10:19 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36238
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Pico de gallo. Clearly you don't live in any former territory of Spain.

Miner's families might disagree with you regarding the need to dig. I'm just sayin'.... Hmm
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#172701 - 01/16/11 10:27 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Sorry for the cornfusion...
I know'd thar wuz sumthin' wrong with muh spellin', but if I sez it that way, the waitress brings it.
If I sez pico de gallo, she brings hot spiced wine.
Grow Biofuels, Baby, Biofuels!

What about confusion?
That would take care of our prison overcrowding, as well.
Soylent Green, Baby, Soylent Green!


Edited by logtroll (01/16/11 10:29 AM)
Edit Reason: overactive imagination
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#172714 - 01/16/11 01:02 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
Hi Schlack,

It's not that difficult. All I did was use simple arithmetic processes; ie., using multiplication and division with powers of ten to work out equivalancies to their claim that a gram of nickel would produce 1000 billion kilowatts. Then I compared the outcome of that claim to that which is produced by one gram of hot fused hydrogen and there seems to be a large discrepancy.

I also balanced this against their secrecy in the face of seemingly sought out publicity etc. Also the 'secret backers' concerning the 10 kw modules cause concern on my behalf who just might get "duped" and lose their shirts so to speak on another almost free energy boondoggle. It will take 100 of these 10kw units to generate one megawatt.

I'm not disrespecting their efforts, but after witnessing the experiment via the link and reading the commentary, it does raise some questions even to non-scientists such as myself. This is a scientific experiment and it's a long way to the finished well-engineered product that produces electricity.

Carl Nemo **==


Edited by Carl Nemo (01/16/11 01:13 PM)

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#172725 - 01/16/11 02:39 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 4832
Loc: Highlands, Tx
using your numbers for .0071g you got 177780 kwhr
but for 1 g that would be a much larger number and after the arithmetic i got ~700 million kwhr

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#172797 - 01/16/11 08:37 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: rporter314]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
Hi rporter314,

Thanks for the feedback. Possibly I made an error, but I reworked everything and it seems to stand. If you read further I used an ounce so I multiplied my original use of .0071 for matter/energy conversion and then mulitplied it by 28.349... for the number of grams in one Avoirdupois ounce with an answer of 5,039,885.2 kwhrs

Again this was simply a thought experiment I utilized to demonstrate that Rossi's claim for so much power coming from one gram of nickel seemed a bit far fetched. I'm resupplying my work with a bit more explanation along the way as to how I came up with my figure. I may have made an error due to a Guinness Stout override... : )

*****

Fusing 1 gram of hydrogen in a p-p fusion process converts into 0.9929 grams of helium plus 6.4 x 1018 erg of energy--exactly 0.71 percent of the original 1 gram of hydrogen times c2.

Starting with one gram of hydrogen you end up post reaction with .9929 grams of stable helium with the missing mass of .0071 grams of the original one gram of hydrogen released in the form of energy which is what I derived my figures, not an entire gram. To release a gram's worth of energy would take a much larger quantity of hydrogen.

.0071 grams of matter converted to energy = 6.4 x 10 18 ergs converts to 6.4 x 10 11 joules = 1.7778 x10 8 watt hours / 1000 = 177780 kwhrs note: one joule = one watt second Ergs are converted to Joules by the multiplication of 1 x10 -7 ergs = watt seconds /60 = watt minutes /60 = watt hours /1000 = kwhrs
Possibly I abbreviated to much in the above paragraph.
.0071 grams of matter converted to energy =6.4 x 10 18 ergs. Converting ergs to joules requires the multiplication of the ergs factor by 1 x 1x10 -7 ergs to get joules or watt/seconds. 6.4 x 10 18 x 1x10 -7 = 6.4x10 11 joules/second
To convert to watt minutes the aforementioned 6.4x10 11 joules/watt seconds 6.4x10 11/ 60 = 1.0667 10 watt minutes /60 again 1.0667 10/60 = 17778 08 watt hours then finally dividing 17778 08/1000 = 1.7778 05 kwhr = 177780 kwhr

Rossi threw out the term "ounce" relative to their NI-H cold fusion experiment and the vast amount of energy released, so I thought let's use an entire ounce of p-p (proton-proton) hot fused hydrogen, then multiplying the energy derived from one gram x 28.349 in order to see how much energy released and came up with 5.0398 06 kwhr = 5,039,800 kwhrs

Note: This equates to the original .0071 energy conversion x 28.349 = .2012779 grams converted to energy;I.E.,photons, heat and particle based radiation

Re: There are 28.349... grams in an Avoirdupois ounce (re: ounce of nickel) then multiply our derived 177780 kwhrs x 28.349 we get 5,039,885.2 kwhrs of power produced, but a long way from the speculated one billion kwhrs from the fusion of one ounce of cold fused nickel as opposed to hot fused hydrogen...? / : |

There is one caveat here in that the energy conversion factor that's unique to cold fusion, if it can work at all, would not be the same as a hot fusion reaction as found in the sun. We're talking about a energy exchange as a function of short-lived isotope of quasi-gaseous copper interacting with the crystalline lattice of the solid nickel. It was simply the stunning amount of energy that was claimed to be released via one gram of nickel ; ie., 1000 billion kilowatts.

Re: Rossi comment

The machine - replies Rossi - consumes picograms (thousandths of a billionth of a gram) of nickel and hydrogen to produce kilowatts. Therefore in this type of technology the problem of material consumption is not here with an ounce of nickel we can get 1,000 billion KW.

My Note: This would equate to 1x10 15 watts from one ounce of nickel as function of a cold fusion reaction.

1000 billion = one trillion kilowatts so multiplying one trillion kilowatts by another 1000 = 1 petawatt of power !?

Carl Nemo **==







Edited by Carl Nemo (01/16/11 09:29 PM)

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#172803 - 01/16/11 09:41 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 4832
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Originally Posted By: Carl Nemo
. 0071 grams of matter converted to energy = 6.4 x 10 18 ergs converts to 6.4 x 10 11 joules = 1.7778 x10 8 watt hours / 1000 = 177780 kwhrs

note: one joule = one watt second Ergs are converted to Joules by the multiplication of 1 x10 -7 ergs = watt seconds /60 = watt minutes /60 = watt hours /1000 = kwhrs

There are 28.349... grams in an Avoirdupois ounce (re: ounce of nickel) then multiply our derived 177780 kwhrs x 28.349 we get 5,039,885.2 kwhrs of power produced

.00071g converts to 6.4 x 10 10joules now since each joule = 0.000277777778 watt hours or 2.8 x 10 -4 we can now multiply the two and get 17.9 x 10 6 watt hour ... divide by 1000 to get kw or 17.9 x 3 or 179000kw
now to calculate an ounce of Ni
take the .00071g from which we got 179000kw then we multiply by total grams in an ounce and divide by .0071g we get
714714225 kw or 7.1 x 108 which is .8 billion kw

your error was in not calculating 1g from the .0071g



Edited by rporter314 (01/16/11 09:43 PM)
Edit Reason: edit

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#172809 - 01/17/11 12:00 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: rporter314]
Carl Nemo Offline
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Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
Hi rprtr314,

".00071g converts to 6.4 x 10 10joules now since each joule = 0.000277777778 watt hours or 2.8 x 10 -4

For one the original amount of energy released was .0071 grams and not the .00071 you use in your calulation which changes the magnitude by an order of 10 from 10 11 to 10 10 in yours?

Joules being in watt/seconds has to be converted to watt minutes, watt hours and kw for convenience sake which your handy multiplier 2.8 x 10 -4 equates to.

6.4 x 10 11 x 2.8 x 10 -4 = 1.792 10 8 /1000 = 1.792 10 5 = 179200 kwhr

If you divide one gram by .0071 you come up with 140.85 ~ .0071 units

The entire gram is not turned into energy nor an entire ounce but only a small fraction is released as energy in the form of photons, heat and radiation.

28.349/.0071 = 3.9928 x 10 3 almost 4000~.0071 units of lost mass converted to energy in an ounce which is not the case.

Only .0071 gr per gram of mass is converted to energy with the remaining being Helium. So if you have 28.349 gr = one ounce you only have 28.349 gr mass x .0071 gr energy per gram being converted to energy = .2012779 grams per ounce of hydrogen being converted to energy the rest to helium.

***

"take the .00071g from which we got 179000kw then we multiply by total grams in an ounce and divide by .0071g we get
714714225 kw or 7.1 x 108 which is .8 billion kw"

your error was in not calculating 1g from the .0071g" ...extract from reply

***

I'm assuming fatigue and length of this back and forth has caused some honest errors. You interchange the number .00071 with .0071 which causes an error.

Also you multiply kw x grams / .0071 and come up with a large number?

But let's say without focusing on the ultimate output power calculation we simply use your recommended method of calculation.

First case: If we multiply .00071g x 28.349 =.0201278/ .0071= 2.8349 x 179,000kw = 507447.1 kw ?

Second case: If we multiply .0071 x 28.349 = .2012779 g / .0071= 28.349 g x 179,000kw = 5,074,471 kw with each of these gram units equaling the power generated by the fusion of .0071 grams of matter reflected in the derived 179,000kw = 5,074,471 kw and not your higher number.

Third case: We multiply and divide 179,000kw x 28.349/.0071= 7.1471 x 10 8 kw...your answer.

­Fourth case: We multiply and divide 179,000kw x 28.349g initial mass per ounce x .0071g energy released per mass gram / .0071 = 5,074,471kw

Maybe your interchange of .00071 and .0071 is just a typo, but just the same I can't reconcile your answer to my calculations which are based on .0071 g being converted per gram and solving the problem as in the fourth case more to your satisfaction, but still coming up with my results.

Carl Nemo **==







Edited by Carl Nemo (01/17/11 12:58 AM)

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#172834 - 01/17/11 06:03 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
rporter314 Offline
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that was a typo and did not actually change the calculation
what does change is the fact that only .0071 of mass was converted in which case your calculation is correct
(i assumed the complete conversion of 1 oz )

also of note is if there were complete conversion then the numbers become close to the italians numbers (with roundup) so that would suggest either they are misleading people or there is something else going on
anyway i stand corrected

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#172846 - 01/17/11 09:51 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: rporter314]
Carl Nemo Offline
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Hi rprtr314,

Thanks for your reply and regardless who would have been correct, I still value the interface. : )

The only way a complete conversion of the mass could occur would be through a matter/antimatter interaction which is only the stuff of "Star Trek" episodes at this point in history.

I have a feeling that this experiment is possibly a boondoggle to lure 'investors' to the table. It's happened before and some of these 'breakthrough' inventions can bleed people white over a many year period while keeping 'quack' inventors plush with cash to maintain there lifestyles which in most cases are rather humble, but just the same it's fraud.

Carl Nemo **==

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#172852 - 01/17/11 10:15 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
california rick Offline
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Carl, what do you think of the bloom box?
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#172854 - 01/17/11 10:53 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
Carl Nemo Offline
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Hi Cali Rick,

I'm impressed to say the least. I don't detect any boondoggle in this case and there are actual customers using these devices. Of course it still takes a source of fuel such as natural gas, but there's nothing as a "free ride" when it comes to generating electrical energy so this gives the invention validity in that it's not some 'free energy' device still needing a source of input power along with oxygen to operate.

It just might be a big winner, but as the one skeptic said it will no doubt have GE or some other big name on the device if it finally makes its way out into the public domain on a widescale basis although he didn't project his skepticism as to whether the device works or not. Having big name companies supplying the product isn't necessarily bad especially concerning warranty issues etc. as opposed to a smaller company trying to provide such on a national scale.

I'd love to have one myself since I live on acreage and have a well which requires a generator to pump water to the surface during power outages. Generators are noisy and not used often enough to provide dependable backup service when needed. Also you need a far larger generator than most people realize to start a pump motor due to the current draw when first starting the motor. In my case I'd have to power the "Bloombox" with propane since natural gas is not available in my area and propane is not cheap running about $3.00 per gallon for a bulk delivery and it fluctuates in price on a daily basis. Then too I have an all electric home and even with PUD rates as low as 8.2 cents per kwhr in my area it still adds up per month. I use propane to heat my shop via a 50,000 btu overhead heater.

This invention is based on fuel cell principles which are tried and proven. His ceramic plates coated with dissimilar coatings on both sides, then arranged in stacks is quite innovative. One thing for sure, the founder is very enthusiastic with his product and has vision.

As Martha Stewart might say at least seemingly so ..."It's a good thing"... : )

Carl Nemo **==


Edited by Carl Nemo (01/17/11 11:00 PM)

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#172857 - 01/17/11 11:22 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
california rick Offline
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Carl, ever since this article came out, I share it with everyone and anyone who'll listen.

I can't wait 'til I can get my very own bloom box and sell electricity back to PG&E!

smile
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#172859 - 01/18/11 12:07 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
Carl Nemo Offline
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Hi Cali Rick,

I'm enthused and when so, watch out. : ))

Here's the link to the Bloom Energy corporate site.


http://www.bloomenergy.com/products/

I was looking for its stock symbol. They haven't gone public as yet, but I definitely plan on buying into the company. I suspect once this company gets moving that there will be buyout offers in time from the big players in this game such as GE etc.

After going over the company site material and it seems this concept is a slam dunk for sure. They are building one unit per day at this time with a nominal cost of $700,000 per unit, catering to the commercial market. Right now the technology is too expensive for the common household consumer, but that will change in time if these went into mass production.

The hypocrites running this nation who are in the "oil patch's" vest pocket won't be too enthused with such a concept and might very well throw roadblocks in the path of the implementation of this technology. At least it wouldn't surprise me.

Thanks for alerting me to this technology.

Carl Nemo **==

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#172871 - 01/18/11 07:58 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Schlack Offline
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I shall watch this technology & company with great interest.
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#175026 - 02/18/11 11:42 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
mama Offline
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Hi Carl!

Quote:
I'd love to have one myself since I live on acreage and have a well which requires a generator to pump water to the surface during power outages.


When I "was a kid" I would "tussle" with my sister "over" who would "pump the water" when we "vacationed at the cabin".

Are "hand pumps" obsolete?
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#175036 - 02/19/11 02:06 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: mama]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: mama

Are "hand pumps" obsolete?

not entirely
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#175042 - 02/19/11 10:48 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
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Are Bloom Boxes practical and economical?

Not entirely.

Probably should crunch the numbers: equipment cost for the institutional size (residential size is not available) is $7,000/kw. [A smallish conventional generation plant (35 MW) is maybe $1,000 per kw (not that I'm a fan of industrial fossil fueled power plants, or their wasteful distribution systems]. Probably have to add 20% for installation, plus operating costs. The direct fuel to electricity conversion looks good at $.03/kwh, though. Until you add the rest of the cost.

My residence and shop (back a few years when I tracked this sort of thing) used about $3600 in electricity per year at $.06/kwh. My peak load was maybe 10kw, so I would have needed an 10kw generator. Supposing that they could downsize the Bloom Box to an 10kw model and keep the same cost per kw (highly unlikely), then my equipment cost would be $70,000 plus installation and maintenance. $70,000 + $14,000 + $1200 = $85,200 spent at the end of the first year. Amortized over 20 years (in very rough numbers) you're looking at spending $5,000-$6,000/year instead of $3,600 for grid power. And the corporate Man is still selling you the fuel to do it, so there ain't any independence bennies, either.


As for selling power back to the grid, they don't pay you much... certainly less than the $.03/kwh that the natural gas alone costs to operate a 100kw Bloom Box (I think the current rate in my neck of the woods, when the meter turns backwards, is 1.2 cents/kwh, and the power company is trying to get that reduced).

I can get a 2 kw residential grid-tied "cold" fusion plant tomorrow for $30,000, installed (solar powered photovoltaic).

Bottom line is, until we account for the embedded costs of electrical power (mostly environmental degradation, but social and national security costs, too) there's not a chance in Hell of making power cheaper than we're getting off the grid.

The first rule of energy is:
It's five times cheaper to save a watt than to make a watt.

That hand pump is looking better all the time.
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#175081 - 02/19/11 05:50 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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I've seen photovoltiac panels going for as little as 98 cents per Watt, so somebody handy with such stuff can install their own system for quite a bit less. (But probably without any government rebates if you DIY. violin ) But I have looked at our own energy use, and found that the vast majority of our expense is for the propane we use for water heating, cooking, and (very limited) space heating.

We are fortunate enough to have an open southern exposure sloping down from our house, so I am thinking of building a thermosyphon solar water heating system to supply both hot water and space heating. I would keep the existing propane furnace, dryer, and stove but since we hardly ever use the clothes dryer or the furnace (southern California!), that should let us change to a much smaller propane tank. (And a much smaller propane bill.)

Here is a website for folks interested in such stuff:
$1000 Solar Water Heating System (plus lots of other interesting energy stuff)

I've got a some old sliding glass door panels that I can use, so my water heating panels should be even cheaper than theirs.

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#175084 - 02/19/11 06:03 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Solar thermal is a sure bet. Low tech, low cost, fast payback.
But it's NOT very sexy...
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#175085 - 02/19/11 07:04 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
Solar thermal is a sure bet. Low tech, low cost, fast payback.
But it's NOT very sexy...

No one has installed solar panels at our HOA - yet. The Board of Directors is looking to require the low-profile film as all 66 homes have those cement tiles.

The old skool solar panels are not very sexy. I've seen the film on homes with cement tiles like ours and it looks very nice.
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#185374 - 06/22/11 05:39 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
Joe Keegan Offline
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#185379 - 06/22/11 08:03 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
logtroll Offline
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Mr. Rossi looks a little like a mad scientist -- he's definitely got the engineer/geek thing going on.

That voice, though... makes me want to order a pizza. I wonder if the Gizmo can steam clams?
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#185382 - 06/22/11 08:14 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
california rick Offline
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LOL

Steamed clams - in New Mexico?

Rule of thumb: If you can't see the ocean, don't order the seafood. wink
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#185383 - 06/22/11 08:18 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
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Apparently there is going to be a major announcement tomorrow from the company licensed to produce the e-cat. My guess (and sincere hope) is that they will announce that they are producing the machines commercially and that they will be available to homeowners sometime in the next few months. Indications are that the machines could cost in the neighborhood of $7500 to $8000 and would be capable of providing heat and electricity for a single home.

I've tried to follow this pretty carefully and the fact that there has been so little hype makes me think that they are carefully following a brilliant business plan which is gonna make someone a whole damned bunch of money. If so Abdullah, Chavez, and Gadhafi, Qaddafi, God's Taffy or whatever the hell his name is should all be shaking in their boots. The machine would actually be a boon to, among others, the residents of the Arabian Peninusula, since they will be able to desalinate all the water they want to and they can go back to raising camelss for their transportation and sheep and goats for whatever pleasures they use sheep for.
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#185384 - 06/22/11 08:19 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
logtroll Offline
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Maybe steamed crawdads?
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#185388 - 06/22/11 09:18 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
logtroll Offline
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I have to admit, I am a skeptic. But I am all for abandoning the ancient and crude addiction to burning anything and everything for energy to mostly waste.

As a basic principle, however, it seems that the most elegant course of action would be to consciously adapt to depending primarily upon the energy that falls freely down from the sky (falls? sky? talk about primitive...).

IMO, one of the most important factors in our energy dilemma is the desire to have unlimited amounts of it for cheap. Step 1 in recovery should be; curb the desire, lessen the problem.

In the immortal radio ad of Bob's Beermaking Supplies Company, "Kchssssh... Relax, and have a homebrew".
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#185402 - 06/22/11 11:56 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Joe Keegan Offline
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
That voice, though... makes me want to order a pizza. I wonder if the Gizmo can steam clams?
It's probably good for something. BTW- I'd suggest a thin crust red clam sauce with garlic pizza and a cold beer.

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#185418 - 06/22/11 01:14 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Schlack Offline
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
Maybe steamed crawdads?


hopefully not red herring
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#185420 - 06/22/11 02:07 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
logtroll Offline
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Or any of the types of suckerfish.
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#185631 - 06/24/11 08:08 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Joe Keegan Offline
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Nobel laureate touts E-Cat cold fusion
Quote:
Dr. Brian Josephson, winner of the 1973 Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on superconductivity, has recently released a YouTube video of an interview of himself conducted by Judith Driscoll, Professor of Materials Science at Cambridge University. The stated purpose of the video is to wake up the media to the E-Cat story, which has not been widely reported on in the mainstream media of the English-speaking world. While some cold fusion advocates hypothesize the existence of a conspiracy of silence to suppress news with such important implications, Josephson suggests the silence is more due to an unwillingness of the traditional media outlets (both general and scientific) to risk appearing credulous by simply reporting on the story.

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#185632 - 06/24/11 08:10 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Joe Keegan Offline
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#185639 - 06/24/11 08:30 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe Keegan


There are two serious problems with this video:

One is the banjo music... given the other active thread that involves banjo music, it is difficult to concentrate on this one with that playing in the background;

Two is that it is impossible to not expect the scientist to say, "More cheese, Gromit?" at any second.

Other than that, where do I send a check?
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#201567 - 11/24/11 07:30 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Schlack Offline
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well its been a few months, time for an update.


Independent Bologna University Test

Quote:
alian inventor Andrea Rossi signed a deal with the University of Bologna for the replication and independent test of the energy catalyzer technology. This move is expected to put a final seal on the debates about cold fusion technology.

The Department of Physics will be in charge of the independent test and they are expected to measure and publish the results in a scientific journal. If this happens, it will put a scientifically definitive word on the energy catalyzer device invention.

It will be an expensive and challenging process to undertake, but they have already secured the funding. According to a representative of the Department of Physics of the University of Bologna:

“ To activate the contract we want to pay the first installment of the contribution, 500 000 euros in two years, that Jones has committed to provide for all costs. We should be starting soon, in a few weeks – in summer you could have the first scientific report of the results obtained disclose to scientific journals.” {google translated from Italian}

Several tests have already been done on the Ecat, carried out by Rossi and his associates and observed by various independent parties. The main point of contention is that all these were tests done by Rossi himself. Hence, an independent Ecat test is needed so that the cold fusion technology skeptic’s doubts will be erased. Results published about the unexplained heat produced by the one Mega-Watt Rossi heat plant is always a bone of contention since they are not measured by independent scientists.
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#201573 - 11/24/11 08:35 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Any idea as to when we should hear about the results?
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#201576 - 11/24/11 09:27 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
Any idea as to when we should hear about the results?


Maybe when climate change hits Hades?
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#201577 - 11/24/11 09:32 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline
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idea

The University of Baloney seems like the perfect venue for this research.
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#201599 - 11/25/11 03:29 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
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Originally Posted By: Greger
idea

The University of Baloney seems like the perfect venue for this research.


I dont disagree, but a part of me is holding out for something wonderful! If tests are verified and it does go into production.....
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#201605 - 11/25/11 07:32 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
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Me, too, Schlack.
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#201607 - 11/25/11 09:07 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
logtroll Offline
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I have mixed feelings about discovering another "unlimited" supply of energy, even one that is clean. Our primary problem is over-consumption - of everything - and until we can learn to be intelligent and moderate we will never discover a solution for that.

We need limits, conscious limits.
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#201609 - 11/25/11 09:20 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
...Our primary problem is over-consumption - of everything...

I would say our 'primary problem' is 'over-indulgence' ( ) without any forethought - I seem to be alone with that meme.

Some argue that if they "can afford it without relying in the government" they "have the right" and should "over-indulge" if they want.

How 1% does that sound?

"If I can afford to use-up the earth's resources, I have every right..."

Um...from a moral perspective, no you don't - even if you can afford to... rolleyes
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#201611 - 11/25/11 09:52 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
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If the only thing it were used for was desalination of water, it would be a tremendous boon to all of the starving people who are living in drought-blighted areas.

If the only thing it were used for was to allow us to tell all the oil-producing nations to take a long walk off a short pier it would be a boon to the entire world.
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#201614 - 11/25/11 10:12 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: california rick

I would say our 'primary problem' is 'over-indulgence' ( ) without any forethought - I seem to be alone with that meme...

(yer not alone, there are straat non-breeders lurking in the swamps who are skeered of aligning theirselves with California bent guys who apparently can't cook real food)
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#201639 - 11/25/11 03:53 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
numan Offline
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Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I have mixed feelings about discovering another "unlimited" supply of energy, even one that is clean. Our primary problem is over-consumption - of everything - and until we can learn to be intelligent and moderate we will never discover a solution for that.

Wise words, logtroll.

Originally Posted By: churlpat lives
If the only thing it were used for was desalination of water, it would be a tremendous boon to all of the starving people who are living in drought-blighted areas.

But, of course, that wouldn't be the only thing it would be used for.
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#201653 - 11/25/11 04:32 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: numan
...
Wise words, logtroll...

Eeeeooowweeee! NUMAN! agreed with me! (I have to go take a shower...)

Of course, he was right. Hmm
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#201657 - 11/25/11 04:50 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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Don't worry, logtroll, sometimes even Homer nods !

· · · grin
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#201662 - 11/25/11 05:28 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
logtroll Offline
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Gotcha, Homer! ThumbsUp
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#201673 - 11/25/11 07:10 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
Greger Offline
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Quote:
I seem to be alone with that meme.

Technically, I don't think you can be alone with a meme
Quote:
"an idea, behaviour or style that spreads from person to person within a culture."
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#201677 - 11/25/11 07:25 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I have mixed feelings about discovering another "unlimited" supply of energy, even one that is clean. Our primary problem is over-consumption - of everything - and until we can learn to be intelligent and moderate we will never discover a solution for that.

We need limits, conscious limits.


A most curious admixture of statements, LT ! Particularly so when one considers they run counter to the historical record !

OTOH, if "over consumption" is your concept of the "bane of the world" there's only two ways to rectify the situation.

First, remove the "excess population". Are you going to volunteer ? How many of your friends ? Who chooses ? How ? Maybe we ought to remove all advanced medical care and "let God sort it out" - but wait ! Isn't that the Obama Administration's solution ?

The Second is to reduce the standard of living. Since that generally results in an increase in the birth rate, that means an ever-increasing decline in the prevailing SOL in order to make your artificially limited means provide ever less for an increasing demand. And, wait ! Isn't that, too, the Obama Administration's solution to the "energy problem" ?

The history of industrialization in America, (and the world, FTM), has been one of increasingly more efficient use of energy resources resulting in less environment degradation, (and even much "improvement"), an improved SOL for all economic classes, and the development of ever more/cleaner sources of energy empowering ever more economically viable industries reducing our demands upon terrestrial resources by efficient recovery !

Discovery/development of even this seemingly "off the wall" scheme is to be welcomed, not denigrated ! It may provide an affordable "stepping stone" for some populations to attain even more clean energy resources to improve the SOL !

Or don't you want/feel, the world's "impoverished" deserve equal opportunity to improve their lot ? >Mech

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#201686 - 11/25/11 07:41 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Mechanic]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mechanic

First, remove the "excess population". Are you going to volunteer ?

I would certainly, joyously volunteer! After all, what more worthwhile life could there be than lessening the number of humans cluttering the planet !

Though, I wouldn't do it until those less intelligent and responsible than myself were first to go. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.

Of course, by then, there would no longer be a population problem.

· · · wink
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#201689 - 11/25/11 07:51 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
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Posts: 4890
Go ahead. Make the sacrifice. If we go in strict inverse order of intelligence your turn will come a lot more quickly than your ego seems to think will happen.
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#201710 - 11/25/11 11:43 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Greger Offline
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In the animal kingdom, of which we are a part, overpopulation problems are always self correcting. If there are too many termites in a mound the mound will overheat, some termites will die and order will be will be restored. Or maybe all the termites will die. Who cares really? They are only bugs.

We are on the verge of several energy breakthroughs. I expect solar will be the one to trump fossil fuels.
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#201714 - 11/26/11 01:38 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
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Originally Posted By: churlpat lives
If the only thing it were used for was desalination of water, it would be a tremendous boon to all of the starving people who are living in drought-blighted areas.

If the only thing it were used for was to allow us to tell all the oil-producing nations to take a long walk off a short pier it would be a boon to the entire world.



This is where I am coming from too. I would just be happy with the water desal.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#201715 - 11/26/11 01:40 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
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Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: numan
'

Don't worry, logtroll, sometimes even Homer nods !

· · · grin


Who was it, Lloyd Bensen?

"I knew Homer,
Homer was a friend of mine.

You sir, are no Homer."

ROTFMOL ROTFMOL ROTFMOL ROTFMOL
ROTFMOL ROTFMOL ROTFMOL ROTFMOL

Sorry Numan, jes couldn't hep mahself.
No offense intended.

Oh my, I am on a roll!!!

You sir, aren't even THIS guy:



On second thought, maybe Aristotle was bending the head back and forth, so that Homer APPEARED to be nodding?
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#201717 - 11/26/11 04:53 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
This "Cold Fusion" thread is not quite as cold as the proffered theory and practice offered by Rossi & Associates.

Andrea Rossi & Co. are scientific snake oil salesmen...period!

I provided input to this post early on, but feel most readers haven't read the thorough research done on the subject of cold fusion since its infancy in the late 80's. A lot of bright scientific intellects and heavily funded labs couldn't duplicate the claims of the Fleischmann Pons c-f reaction. Rossi's claims of the phenominal energy released is pure b.s. and if so would be the equivalent of an antimatter reaction.

Re: page three of this thread with my comments concerning Rossi's claims. This couldn't be achieved by fusing an equivalent mass of hot fused hydrogen, much less an electro-chemical based cold fusion process. This is not simply cold fusion, but a claim to a totally new process of a matter/energy exchange that would make our star Sol seemingly a 'punk' when it comes to providing sustenance for our solar system particularly life on earth.

***

Re: Rossi comment

"The machine - replies Rossi - consumes picograms (thousandths of a billionth of a gram) of nickel and hydrogen to produce kilowatts. Therefore in this type of technology the problem of material consumption is not here with an ounce of nickel we can get 1,000 billion KW.

My Note: This would equate to 1x10 15 watts from one ounce of nickel as function of a cold fusion reaction.

1000 billion = one trillion kilowatts so multiplying one trillion kilowatts by another 1000 = 1 petawatt of power !?"

Carl Nemo **==

***


There's too much secrecy about the details. Seemingly he and his associates can drag this on long enough to provide them with a cush retirement even when the end results is another mothballed experiment in almost 'free energy'. Even his experiment looks like a Rube Goldberg pile of junk.

I suggest folks read the content of this readily available Wiki link concerning "cold fusion". You'll see Rossi and his experiment listed as a soon to be 'footnote' to a long-standing series of failures trying to validate cold fusion towards the end of the article.

Greger's reference to the site of this experiment as the 'University of Boloney' is closer to the truth than he might realize. : ))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

It's a lengthy read, but worthwhile to bring folks up to speed concerning the effort and funding that has been spent to date concerning this method of low temperature fusion.

Carl Nemo **==


Edited by Carl Nemo (11/26/11 05:14 AM)

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#201718 - 11/26/11 07:59 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
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Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
Originally Posted By: numan
'

Don't worry, logtroll, sometimes even Homer nods !

· · · grin


Who was it, Lloyd Bensen?

"I knew Homer,
Homer was a friend of mine.

You sir, are no Homer."


I beg to differ, Checkers. From the Urban Dictionary...

"Homer:
July 27, 2007 Urban Word of the Day
1. American bonehead.
2. Pull a Homer: to succeed despite idiocy.
"Looks like I just pulled a Homer!"

NUMAN! may just be right again?
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#201719 - 11/26/11 08:00 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
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Perhaps there needs to be a Wikipedia entry for con-fusion? Hmm
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#201720 - 11/26/11 08:37 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
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Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Originally Posted By: Logtroll
...
We need limits, conscious limits.


A most curious admixture of statements, LT ! ... don't you want/feel, the world's "impoverished" deserve equal opportunity to improve their lot ? >Mech


Ah, another Mechanical fantasy world!

I envision my own fantasy world where people actually hear what other people say and respond accordingly and not to their own ideological fabrications interjected whenever they see trigger words...

A world where people respond to what the speaker said and not to what someone else said...

A world where people think about what they are going to say and include their own honest thoughts, instead of defending fantastical ideologies against imaginary enemies...

A world where "standard of living" is not used synonymously with "ability to buy cheap sh!t that we don't need"...

A world where right-wing bloviators can admit that there is a difference between fantasy and reality.

Have you invested in the Rossi Gizmo yet, Mr. Mech? Don't you want to help the world's impoverished to improve their lot in life? (You might make a boatload of money in the process!) ThumbsUp
_________________________
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#201721 - 11/26/11 08:48 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
One question, Carl:

If they are snake oil salesmen why are they not trying to sell anything?
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#201736 - 11/26/11 12:18 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
It's simply an expression churlpat. What they are trying to sell is a 'dead horse' almost 'free energy' concept that's been proven definitively as a no go. Re: Wiki link provided

Rest assured there will be others after this current Rossi scheme goes down in flames and dies as a function of the engineering issues associated with building a functional reactor.

It's one thing to make something seemingly work on a micro- lab scale; I.E., their 'picogram to kilowatt conversion' and quite another to engineer a functioning generating system cranking out megawatts of power for public consumption.

The world would be better served by making a changeover from uranium based nuclear power production to one of thorium based which is infinitely safer and also allows the breeding of fissile material from the thorium which is three times more plentiful as uranium in the earth's crust.

http://scitizen.com/future-energies/is-thorium-an-energy-alchemist-s-dream-_a-14-2601.html

India and China are in the process of bringing these safer methods of generating power on line in lieu of continually building evermore conventional nuclear facilities along with their waste and contaminative issues. If Japan had moved towards thorium energy production then the tsunami related nuclear crisis would not have happened.

Carl Nemo **==

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#201745 - 11/26/11 01:44 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
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Thank God there's someone else who wishes Thorium had gotten more airplay.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#201747 - 11/26/11 02:04 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Um, a... thorium?

Loved her in the Kill Bill series! So hot she was down right radioactive! tonbricks
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#201762 - 11/26/11 04:40 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Ah.....Yessss......Another snide corner of the world speaks - no orates ! >Mech

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#201767 - 11/26/11 05:10 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
I ask again, to whom are they trying to sell their black box? Do you now or have you seen anything that leads you to believe that they are taking in money from anyone, that they are getting ready to disappear into the night with ill-gotten gains from hundreds of investors? If they were trying to pull a con (that's just an expression, by the way, showing that I can be just as condescending as you, though why you were so is beyond me, since I only asked you a direct question) don't you think that they would be trying to actually get some money?
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#201768 - 11/26/11 05:15 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Originally Posted By: Greger
In the animal kingdom, of which we are a part, overpopulation problems are always self correcting. If there are too many termites in a mound the mound will overheat, some termites will die and order will be will be restored. Or maybe all the termites will die. Who cares really? They are only bugs.

We are on the verge of several energy breakthroughs. I expect solar will be the one to trump fossil fuels.


Greger, I'm curious how you arrive at that particular conclusion; given the variaible nature of the "generating source" and its inverse relationship to historical demand peaks. Just how many "successful" (i.e. providing significant power addition to the grid ), solar projects exist ? What's their current contributory percentage of energy to the grid ?

And - given recent events in the solar power arena - when will this "transformation" take place ? Seems a couple of "big players" in the solar marketplace just took a major fall - along with the U.S. taxpayers funding them !

I was in the "solar power business" long before the liberatti thought it cute ! I saw it then, as I see it now, a "niche" response applicable to a particular set of physical circumstances; and (perhaps, given some serious advances in transmission efficiency, regulation and storage not yet evident in the industry, a subsidiary power source. But never a "base load" capable of supporting a regional grid system !

But differences lead to discussion just as profit opportunities lead to invention; provided government keeps away from the marketplace ! >Mech

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#201771 - 11/26/11 05:21 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
Originally Posted By: churlpat lives
If the only thing it were used for was desalination of water, it would be a tremendous boon to all of the starving people who are living in drought-blighted areas.

If the only thing it were used for was to allow us to tell all the oil-producing nations to take a long walk off a short pier it would be a boon to the entire world.



This is where I am coming from too. I would just be happy with the water desal.


Affordable water desal would be a boon to many regions of the world, TBS ! It also offers the possibility of a host of "by-products" in commercially viable quantities as well ! >Mech

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#201773 - 11/26/11 05:33 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
CN:
I'll agree with your opinion ! IMPO,"cold fusion" has always been a "snake oil scheme", but who knows ? Some other "scientific long shots" have paid off in the past ! (Although most had far more "scientific standing" in our knowledge of our universe than "cold fusion" has yet shown.) IOW, many aspects of CF are out of my experience/knowledge !

But I've faced those situations in my professional and personal life before ! I do what I've been trained/learned to do and make the calls as I see them ! This one's "on the fence, but leaning ! >Mech

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#201776 - 11/26/11 05:37 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
... But never a "base load" capable of supporting a regional grid system ! ...>Mech


Hence the need for rational limits and conservation. Somehow, expansion just never seems to get big enough. Faster never seems to get fast enough. Enough never seems to be quite enough. It is five times cheaper to save a watt than to make a watt. Trim the idiotic base load, then worry about how much production is enough.

I assumed you are a conservative, but you never seem to argue for conservation - it's not the word meaning problem again, is it? (see collegiate use in your following post)

Why a regional grid system when every roof could be a generating station? Why not bend our not always rational consumption habits to better conform to production curves? Why not convert the peak solar production to other storable forms of energy?


Edited by logtroll (11/26/11 11:26 PM)
Edit Reason: predicting the future
_________________________
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#201777 - 11/26/11 05:39 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
lt,

You remind me of a friend of long standing. He's much given to snide comments and sarcasm, too ! Both are attempts to conceal his underlying lack of knowledge of the subject matter and his consequent insecurities ! Curiously, he's collegiate instructor ! >Mech

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#201780 - 11/26/11 05:54 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
Yo churlpat...

I gave you my answer and it stands.

Rest assured geeks, quacks et al. througout history have been corrupted no differently by money than anyone else. Being a scientist doesn't elevate one to the level of a Mother Teresa.

I've followed the experiment closely and the claims are outlandish which makes the promise of almost 'free energy' into the future ever the more appetizing to gullible investors.
If there were no investors to be had, then surely there would be a loss of interest in this so-called 'experiment'.

I'm not the resident psychoanalyst. If you want confrontation you won't get such from me.

Have a cup of tea, a shot of 'Jack' or whatever suits your fancy. Peace...! : )

I don't have a condescending bone in my body. I'm only interested in the facts. This Rossi cold fusion play reeks of fraud to me.

Carl Nemo **==

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#201785 - 11/26/11 06:09 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Mech,

Curious, too, that you respond to my least effort at sarcasm just when I've offered you some very good questions and food for thought.

Not hungry? Not knowledgeable enough to engage? Hmm

Let me reduce it to one question: why do you not react positively to the idea of applying conservation first?
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#201798 - 11/26/11 08:05 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
"I gave you my answer and it stands."

No, it doesn't. It flops around on the ground and then lies moribund, without one fact to back it up. Which is pretty much what happens whenever you are confronted with a request for specificity.

All I want to know is who is losing money on this venture? You tell us that Rossi is selling snake oil, then you say it's just a figure of speech. BULLSH!T. Plain and simple.

If you want to convince me show me that someone is buying into this scheme with no expectation of getting his or her money back. You cannot even show me that people are investing in the e-cat machine. You are blowing smoke.
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#201801 - 11/26/11 08:49 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
show me that someone is buying into this scheme with no expectation of getting his or her money back.

The University of Bologna?
_________________________
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#201806 - 11/26/11 10:23 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
Yo churlpat...

For $2000 USD per kilowatt Mr. Rossi has a unit that might interest your household energy needs.

Seemingly it looks like a surplus storage container with shelves inside stacked with reactor vessels full of cold fused energy along with an "As seen on TV" hi tech folding ladder thrown in as a bonus providing you meet the midnight deadline of Sunday November 27, a kindly extension of the "Black Friday" shopping orgy for U.S. based purchasers. / : |

http://pesn.com/2011/11/03/9501945_E-Cat_Orders_Being_Taken_After_Successful_Launch/

***

Link to Andrea Rossi's bio...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_(entrepreneur)

I gotta get back to blowin' smoke. : )

Carl Nemo **==


Edited by Carl Nemo (11/26/11 10:56 PM)

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#201811 - 11/26/11 10:42 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida


It sounds almost too good to be true!

LOL
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#201816 - 11/26/11 11:53 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Carl Nemo Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 223
Loc: Ridgefield, Wa USA
Hopefully it would work as touted Greger, but it's quotes from the E-Cat test evaluation that has me concerned.

"Attendance at this test was limited for several reasons. First, the customer does not wish to be known at this time, nor to have its test engineers/scientists identified. I did not inadvertently discover the customer's identity, nor did I try to find out. I gave that group their space and did not probe. [Second, the device is a nuclear device, and the regulations for a public demonstration are extremely stringent]; so by making the event private, and only bringing one or two at a time to see it was a way to get around the safety requirements." ...extract from E-Cat test article my brackets concerning reference to it being a "nuclear device" which it is not. It's an electro-chemical process that is still little understood at this point and is referred to as a LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) Some neutrons should be emitted, but are difficult to detect at such low levels in conjunction with LENR reactions. Allegedly there has been breakthrough's detecting such emissions with more sensistive detectors.

Link to the test itself.

http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW_E-Cat_Test_Successful/

I'm also supplying an excellent link explaining different nuclear reations including the non-nuclear one of LENR such as the Rossi E-Cat device

http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/04/03/no-fear-of-radiation-from-cold-fusion/

Rossi is seemingly ready to ship these units to customers as seen in the demonstration link. Where's the safety and stress testing concerning this product and assurance that it is wired to international industrial electrical codes for both insurance and safety purposes etc.? If the process isn't fully understood then how can customers be confident in its safety. No definitive scientific paper has been written as yet explaining how it works. This isn't something GE would deliver to a customer. So too why isn't GE, Westinghouse et al. knocking on his door to make Rossi a deal he can't refuse?

If Rossi's E-Cat turns out to be the real deal then he surely deserves the Nobel Prize in applied physics. Just the same caveat emptor...!

Carl Nemo **==

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#201819 - 11/27/11 12:09 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Carl Nemo]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
This process has been around since 1989, there is nothing new about it nor is this probably a worls shatering breakthrough in an old and much researched phenomenon. Yes it raise the temperature of water. But that is the same physics that powers the Drinking Bird. If you link enough of these together you might be able to use them to generate electricity!

_________________________
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#201823 - 11/27/11 12:31 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
This is your future, people!
_________________________
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#201828 - 11/27/11 06:08 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
Or, maybe this?



The potential is exciting.

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#201831 - 11/27/11 08:26 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11703
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
the problem with such "simple too good to be true" energy technologies is that they really do seem too good to be true.

Many ideas have been presented her... often they seem to have trivial technical challenges to impede implementation, and yet there never seems to be any indication that products are coming to market. They seem perpetually locked in the realm of tantalizing you tube videos

here we have a guy who has proved something like cold fusion running on 20 years now. it does not seem unreasonable to wonder when this will come to market? At the very least one would think they could produce a viable water heater Hmm

if any of these technologies worked, the value should be incalculable. where are the large corporations lining up their research dollars to exploit this bonanza? why is it that no other country has stolen the technology for themselves? I cannot imagine that china and india would be dramatically impeded by any patents they might infringe upon. the devices as presented do not seem to be more complicated than nuclear energy.. which both china and india have long mastered. so why do these things remain youtube curiosities?


Edited by Ardy (11/27/11 08:42 AM)
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#201832 - 11/27/11 08:49 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
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The problem is that the only natural system that has ever demonstrated the ability to have outputs exceed inputs in a sustainable way perpetually is Wall Street.
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#201867 - 11/27/11 01:05 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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'
It's like borrowing energy from the quantum vacuum for a short time---you can get a free ride for a brief time but then you have to pay it back.

If you double-park often, or for a long time, you will get a ticket---but if you do it infrequently, and for a short time, you may not have to pay a fine.

Wall Street, on the other hand....
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#201945 - 11/27/11 08:09 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
Mech,

...I've offered you some very good questions and food for thought.

Not hungry? Not knowledgeable enough to engage? Hmm

Let me reduce it to one question: why do you not react positively to the idea of applying conservation first?


Whatsa matter, Mechanic? Brain freeze? Or is the question too offensive to answer?

I'm going with " not knowledgeable enough to engage".
_________________________
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#202075 - 11/28/11 08:39 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Mech,

I know you are prowling around these parts...

It's not good manners to avoid a legitimate question. I'll rephrase it once more to make it easier - why aren't Conservatives interested in energy conservation?

Thanks, Buddy!
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#202081 - 11/28/11 09:33 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Loc: North San Diego County
As presented, it's not really a case of getting something for nothing. There is energy available from transmuting nickel into copper. It's really just a question of overcoming the energy barrier to get the reaction to procede at a significant rate.

But weirder things have happened, and are used in real commercial products today. For example, tunnel diodes.

I'm not investing any money, but I am willing to wait until the University scholars announce their findings before I make up my mind. If this is not a viable path to controlled fusion energy production, that does not mean that someone will not find one that is less messy than a hydrogen bomb. We already have demonstrated that the energy is there, and we have built devices to release it. So all of this "cold fusion" experimentation is just refinement of an existing, known process.

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#202095 - 11/28/11 10:25 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
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The reactor that I am working on turns CO2 into Gold while saving more energy than it uses. It's the immutable law of conservation of mass and energy. It's also a way to make money out of (a component of) thin air.

Rossi can suck my kneecaps.
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#202099 - 11/28/11 10:39 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

I'm not investing any money, but I am willing to wait until the University scholars announce their findings before I make up my mind. If this is not a viable path to controlled fusion energy production, that does not mean that someone will not find one that is less messy than a hydrogen bomb.


Yes PIA, indeed science has created all sorts of things that could not even be imagined a few years ago. And yes I am willing to keep and open mind on all these things.

On the other hand, these sorts of revelations are frequently accompanied by a high level of excitement... and before long, someone is saying that the whole reason this breakthrough has not been commercialized is because of some enormous conspiracy.

Ao while I am willing to wait and see... I am not willing to move on and agree to the conspiracy theorists until both the technology and the conspiracy have been better documented.
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#207431 - 01/07/12 01:13 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ardy]
Joe Keegan Offline
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Just a rumor: Home Depot has bought the rights to Rossi's invention. At any rate, if there's any truth to it, I suspect that we'll see these devices commercially available within the next few years.

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#207613 - 01/08/12 11:24 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Joe Keegan Offline
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E-cat could be used for Cooling and H...e This Fall
Quote:
“We are in talks with Home Depot for the diffusion,” Rossi said. Rossi stated that he has been in talks with Home Depot a major chain of home improvement and hardware stores in the United States for distribution of fusors. He presented no proof that he has any sort of an agreement with Home Depot.

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#207615 - 01/08/12 11:31 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Joe Keegan
E-cat could be used for Cooling and H...e This Fall
Quote:
“We are in talks with Home Depot for the diffusion,” Rossi said. Rossi stated that he has been in talks with Home Depot a major chain of home improvement and hardware stores in the United States for distribution of fusors. He presented no proof that he has any sort of an agreement with Home Depot.

If nothing else, Mr. Rossi has a nice-looking website. Hmm
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#207618 - 01/08/12 11:45 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
Ken Condon Offline
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He works at the University of Bologna. Somehow that doesn’t inspire a great deal of confidence in me.
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#207640 - 01/08/12 01:46 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ken Condon]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ken Hill
He works at the University of Bologna. Somehow that doesn’t inspire a great deal of confidence in me.

ROTFMOL

I saw that too! tinfoilhat
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#207665 - 01/08/12 05:25 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ken Condon]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ken Hill
He works at the University of Bologna. Somehow that doesn’t inspire a great deal of confidence in me.

Sigh. Such crude levity is just another symptom of the desperate ignorance and lack of culture so prevalent in the good ol' USA.

University of Bologna

The University of Bologna was probably the first University in the western world. Its history is one of great thinkers in science and the humanities....
The institution that we today call the University began to take shape in Bologna at the end of the eleventh century, when masters of Grammar, Rhetoric and Logic began to devote themselves to the law. In the nineteenth century a committee of historians, led by Giosuè Carducci, attributed the birth of the University to the year 1088.
In the 14th Century, so-called "artists" - scholars of Medicine, Philosophy, Arithmetic, Astronomy, Logic, Rhetoric, and Grammar - began to collaborate with the school of jurists. In 1364, the teaching of Theology was instituted.
Dante Alighieri, Francesco Petrarca, Guido Guinizelli, Cino da Pistoria, Cecco d'Ascoli, Re Enzo, Salimbene da Parma and Coluccio Salutati all studied in Bologna.

In the 15th Century Greek and Hebrew studies were instituted, and in the 16th Century those of "natural magic", that is, experimental science. The philosopher Pietro Pomponazzi upheld the study of the laws of nature against the traditionalist position of Theology and Philosophy.In the 16th Century Gaspare Tagliacozzi completed the first studies of plastic surgery. But the golden era of Bolognese Medicine coincided with the teachings of Marcello Malpighi in the 17th Century, employing the microscope for anatomical research.

The University's fame had spread throughout Europe and it was a destination for many illustrious guests. Famous scholars and students included Pico della Mirandola and Leon Battista Alberti, who devoted themselves to canonical law. Nicolò Copernico began his astronomical observations while studying pontifical law. Paracelso, Raimundo de Pegñafort, Albrecht Dürer, St. Carlo Borromeo, Torquato Tasso and Carlo Goldoni all spent time at the University.

With the Industrial Revolution in the 18th Century, the University promoted scientific and technological development. In this period came the studies of Luigi Galvani who, along with Alessandro Volta, Benjamin Franklin and Henry Cavendish, was one of the founders of modern electrotechnical studies.


[If you do not know who most of those people are, you are beyond hope]


Edited by numan (01/08/12 05:28 PM)
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#207670 - 01/08/12 06:27 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Greger Offline
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So, what you're saying here Numan is that you believe Cold Fusion Powered water heaters will be on sale at Home Depot within the year. Because Baloney aint Baloney in Bologna.
I'll jot a note down here to bring this up again in a year or so to see if this and your other predictions pan out as promised.
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#207672 - 01/08/12 06:55 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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You are grouchy today, Greger.

That isn't what I wrote at all.
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#207673 - 01/08/12 06:57 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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If I remember right the first "peoples' electric car" was being developed at Baloney U in the early 20th century. B'lieve they called it a Voltswagooni.
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#207677 - 01/08/12 07:19 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
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Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: numan
'
You are grouchy today, Greger.

That isn't what I wrote at all.

I didn't read what you wrote, was it important?

LOL
Can I help it if you are the only one writing anything worth replying to?
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#207680 - 01/08/12 07:28 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
numan Offline
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'
Originally Posted By: Greger

Can I help it if you are the only one writing anything worth replying to?

Ah, now there is the gentlemanly charm and grace of the Old South that we love so well !!

If I have a wee nip or two, I might even be able to convince myself that it is true. · · · wink


Edited by numan (01/08/12 07:30 PM)
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#207687 - 01/08/12 08:22 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
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Posts: 4890
So you are saying that Greger is ignorant and uncultured. You really are a sweetheart, aren't you, Alferd?
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#207696 - 01/08/12 11:32 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
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Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: numan
'
Originally Posted By: Greger

Can I help it if you are the only one writing anything worth replying to?

Ah, now there is the gentlemanly charm and grace of the Old South that we love so well !!

If I have a wee nip or two, I might even be able to convince myself that it is true. · · · wink

Well come on down and we'll have pitcher of Mint Julips and talk it over.


a "pitcher" of Mint Julips LOL
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#207697 - 01/08/12 11:33 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
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Quote:
So you are saying that Greger is ignorant and uncultured
.
I didn't hear anyone say anything like that. We here in the Deep South may occasionally be ignorant, through no fault of our own, but we are never ever uncultured.
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#207700 - 01/09/12 12:29 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ken Condon]
Joe Keegan Offline
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Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
Originally Posted By: Ken Hill
He works at the University of Bologna. Somehow that doesn’t inspire a great deal of confidence in me.

LOL If Rossi's device is successfully marketed, it will help to revitalize a moribund economy.

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#207719 - 01/09/12 07:38 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
So you are saying that Greger is ignorant and uncultured
.
I didn't hear anyone say anything like that. We here in the Deep South may occasionally be ignorant, through no fault of our own, but we are never ever uncultured.


Sorry, it was Ken Hill who bore the brunt of the accusation. But it was still Alferd E. Numan hisownself who said it.
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#207730 - 01/09/12 09:39 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Joe Keegan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greger

Well come on down and we'll have pitcher of Mint Julips and talk it over.
Do you infuse the simple syrup with mint?

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#207741 - 01/09/12 11:20 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Greger Offline
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The mint is infused in the Bourbon. Better extraction of the oil.
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#207744 - 01/09/12 11:32 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Originally Posted By: Greger
The mint is infused in the Bourbon. Better extraction of the oil.


idea

Ah...

...the old combine alcohol and oil to form an ester chemistry trick:

Oils have a glycerol molecule with three fatty acids attached to it. In normal cooking processes, heat damages the oil. The glycerols gradually get separated from their fatty acids producing a range of foul tasting and/or carcinogenic compounds. That’s why we change cooking oil when it goes brown or black (depending on how long one wishes to live).

It is possible to react an alcohol molecule with each fatty acid, creating an alcohol fatty acid ester. The glycerol then separates from the alcohol fatty acid ester. You can then use the alcohol fatty acid ester (AFE’s) as a novelty cooking oil.

(...musta learned something in 2000 hours of college... coffee )
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#207747 - 01/09/12 11:35 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
logtroll Offline
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Obviously, the presence of crushed ice causes the infusion to be cold.
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#207749 - 01/09/12 11:42 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: california rick]
Greger Offline
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#207752 - 01/09/12 11:47 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline
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This is cold infusion technology that works.
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#207753 - 01/09/12 11:50 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Originally Posted By: Greger
This is cold infusion technology that works.

***hiccup***
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#207757 - 01/09/12 12:08 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Some years ago I unexpectedly ran into my father in DC. Out to lunch we went, and the waiter at the restaurant (cannot remember the name but it was in the Willard), asked us if we wanted a drink. I ordered iced tea and the old feller thought for a second and said to the waiter, "You know, I've not had a good martini in many years."

"Very good, sir, would you like that with a twist?"

Pop growled, "God DAMN it, sonny, if I want lemonade I'll order lemonade."

Which explained why he thought the way he did about mint juleps.

He maintained, though, that Irish coffee had all four essential food groups: fat, sugar, caffeine, and alcohol.
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#207763 - 01/09/12 12:37 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/13/07
Posts: 2943
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
Such crude levity is just another symptom of the desperate ignorance and lack of culture so prevalent in the good ol' USA.

Sigh #2.

I’ll bet even you nu had a little chuckle before you jumped upon your “ahem" high horse. And if not, enjoy a few of Gregers juleps and relax a little.
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#208403 - 01/12/12 05:42 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ken Condon]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
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Getting back on track....

it appears that perhaps there is something to this after all

PDF of presentation given at nasa

It appears that there is some kind of reaction going on that has the potential for energy generation, observed by numerous independent universities across the world, however they dont have a full theory.

Perhaps Rossi is ahead of the game on this, - by design or chance - creating a functional device, without fully understanding whats going on!


I got goosebumps - well then i realised i didnt really understand half of it, but them words and letters with numbers after em sure look impressive.

I'm still not convinced, but slightly more hopeful.
_________________________
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#208408 - 01/12/12 06:06 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Schlack
Getting back on track....

it appears that perhaps there is something to this after all

PDF of presentation given at nasa

It appears that there is some kind of reaction going on that has the potential for energy generation, observed by numerous independent universities across the world, however they dont have a full theory.

Perhaps Rossi is ahead of the game on this, - by design or chance - creating a functional device, without fully understanding whats going on!


I got goosebumps - well then i realised i didnt really understand half of it, but them words and letters with numbers after em sure look impressive.

I'm still not convinced, but slightly more hopeful.


MY GAWD! WE CAN"T LET THIS HAPPEN!

After all, it would decimate our economy, which is both driven by, and a slave to, fossil fuels. Can you imagine the war that would erupt as the Military/Fossil Fuel Industrial Complex mobilized to defend itself?
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#208426 - 01/12/12 07:24 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Can you imagine the American public rising up in righteous indignation and telling them to go frack themselves? I can.

Wonder when Ma_R is gonna 'fess up that he might not have been correct about calling Rossi a snake oil salesman (even when he wasn't even trying to sell something.)
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#208438 - 01/12/12 07:52 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
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Originally Posted By: churlpat lives
Can you imagine the American public rising up in righteous indignation and telling them to go frack themselves? I can.

Wonder when Ma_R is gonna 'fess up that he might not have been correct about calling Rossi a snake oil salesman (even when he wasn't even trying to sell something.)


Hold your horses there, it isnt proven technology (or scientific theory) yet. I wont be convinced until i see actual devices being produced (by rossis supposed factory) and the consequent reviews of same.

Im hopeful thats its true, I want it to be, but that doesnt make it so.
_________________________
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#208441 - 01/12/12 08:01 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: churlpat lives
Can you imagine the American public rising up in righteous indignation and telling them to go frack themselves? I can.

Wonder when Ma_R is gonna 'fess up that he might not have been correct about calling Rossi a snake oil salesman (even when he wasn't even trying to sell something.)

Hold your horses yerself, I have been calling Rossi a snake oil salesman. Don't you go crossing me up with Ma_R!!
Though I admit I would not mind being wrong.
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#208442 - 01/12/12 08:03 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
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'
Originally Posted By: churlpat lives

Can you imagine the American public rising up in righteous indignation....

I'm trying · · · I'm trying · · · ungh!

No, sorry, I can't manage to do that.

But I can manage to see them rising up in hysterical indignation ...!

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#208444 - 01/12/12 08:08 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: numan]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
heh, reminded me of

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#209143 - 01/16/12 07:15 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Joe Keegan Offline
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Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707

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#209174 - 01/17/12 07:37 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Joe Keegan Offline
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Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
FYI-- the process that the above NASA scientist is describing is also known as "cold fusion."

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#209823 - 01/21/12 05:48 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Joe Keegan Offline
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Registered: 12/25/05
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PESwiki
Quote:
The community-built resource that focuses on
alternative, clean, practical, renewable energy solutions.
Scroll down the page and check out Top 5 Exotic Free Energy Technologies.

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#210061 - 01/22/12 01:49 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
If you have the interest and time (about 2½ hrs), then turn on your speakers and check out Free Energy Technologies. The world economy can certainly use one of these devices.

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#210072 - 01/22/12 04:00 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: North San Diego County
Or you can harvest free energy from a hydrogen fusion reactor that has been running, quite reliably, for a very long time. It is distributed at an energy density that is relatively safe (about 1 KW/meter square), yet is easily collected, stored, or even concentrated to high temperatures using simple equipment you can build with stuff you buy at Home Depot.
Free Hydrogen Fusion Energy Collection

I looked at our household propane use (we live beyond the natural gas service area) and I think I can replace most of it with one of these systems for about $1000 total. These are not "in development", "available soon", etc. The website includes every detail you need to construct a collection and storage system yourself, and has several different examples with builder's accounts of their performance.

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#210081 - 01/22/12 04:23 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
But it only works for an average of 12 hours a day.
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#210085 - 01/22/12 04:37 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'

Twenty-four hours-per-day, over the entire globe. · · · wink
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#210087 - 01/22/12 04:38 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
Maybe. Do you understand UL listing? If it proves correct, it will jump start the world's economy. Do you have a problem with that?
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#210095 - 01/22/12 04:59 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
But it only works for an average of 12 hours a day.


The energy delivered per square meter reaches a peak of about 1 KW at noon on a summer day. Where I live, the annual total energy works out to about 5 KW/day/meter^2 on fixed-position flat panels since morning and evening sun is weaker. But the systems being built for about $1000 include hot water storage that holds several day's worth of hot water. No problem with everybody taking showers before the sun rises, if that's what your family likes to do. No problem if the sun doesn't shine for a couple of days, but it probably would not work very well for places where the sun is absent for many days at a time.

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#210104 - 01/22/12 05:39 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Joe, what does UL listing have to do with sunshine?
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#210420 - 01/24/12 04:59 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ted Remington]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Independent Testing on Hyperion Reactors

apparently these are the guys who nicked Rossis design.

Quote:
Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies Global Ltd. (PDGT) is ready to further allow third parties to evaluate its core technology: a multi stage LENR reaction between Nickel and Hydrogen.

PDGT has successfully completed its scientific, technological and engineering steps necessary to sustain such a reaction with results exceeding a COP of 20 and with temperatures capable to exceed 650 degrees Celsius.

As it was announced in our November 30th Press Release, a series of third party tests on Hyperion products have been scheduled to be performed within the first months of 2012, immediately after our product’s certification. The present announcement does not refer to such product tests.

With this announcement, PDGT welcomes further requests from internationally recognized and reputable scientific and business organizations interested to conduct their independent tests on “bare” Hyperion Reactors. Such independent tests have already been scheduled.

Tests will be conducted following mutually agreed protocols based on the general principles herein.

Test Objectives
• Measurement of excess heat produced by reactions within Hyperion reactors
• Measurement of “bare” Hyperion Reactor COP (i.e. total energy consumed versus energy produced)
• Measurement of radioactivity during testing
• Measurement of reactor’s stability using its control mechanisms

Type of Testing

Parallel run of two identical Hyperion Reactors connected in parallel to the same electric energy sources for pre-heating and the same Hydrogen input source.
The active Reactor #1 will be equipped and prepared ready to trigger and sustain a steady reaction.
The Reactor #2 will be empty of any powders and with all triggering and control mechanisms deactivated.
Following a parallel test run of both Reactors for at least 48 hours, the two Reactors will be switched for a second run (Reactor #1 empty and Reactor #2 active) in order to authenticate the same results.


hmmmm, still not ready yet to believe this yet but holy sh!t if true.
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
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#210429 - 01/24/12 06:17 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
I wouldn't be too surprised to see some of these devices on the market in a year or two, probably outside the US first.

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#210477 - 01/24/12 10:52 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: North San Diego County
Start hoarding your nickels now!

That's just a joke: If it works like Rossi claims, you could heat your whole house and hot water for about one nickel's weight of nickel powder per month.

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#210483 - 01/24/12 11:33 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
You got it! Maybe that's the problem?

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#212336 - 02/09/12 03:23 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Successful Cold Fusion/LANR Demonstration at MIT – Again

...

Still waiting on a production model.
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#212355 - 02/09/12 09:04 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
You'll probably see one in Europe before we do in the USA.

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#212624 - 02/11/12 03:47 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Quote:
The dawn of the energy age
I'm sure that I've written things that you didn't agree with and probably thought were downright crazy. Well, strap yourself in, because I'm about to take crazy to a whole new level: Within five years, the number of gas customers for the Middleboro Gas & Electric Department will start to plummet. Within 10 to 15 years, there won't be a single customer remaining for either gas or electric. The year 2012 will be looked at by future historians as the dawn of a new age of man - The Energy Age. This will happen because of widespread adoption of a new power source that will provide heat, cooling and electricity for your house for less than $100 per year. It will produce no waste of any kind: No radiation, no greenhouse gases, not even ash. It will replace oil, gas, and coal power plants as well as solar panels and windmills.

The proof of this will come within one year or two at the most. If it doesn't come, you can all have a good laugh at my expense for being gullible. You won't find it discussed much in mainstream media - yet - and most prominent physicists will tell you it's impossible because you can't overcome the Coulomb Barrier without large amounts of energy. They're wrong. High-energy physicists will be slow to believe that their life's work and multi-million dollar fusion/fission reactors will become irrelevant by a device barely more complicated than an air conditioner.

LENR

This new power source is called one of LENR, LANR or even cold fusion. I'm partial to LENR - Low Energy Nuclear Reaction. Devices using this technology are simple: Powdered nickel mixed with pressurized hydrogen gas, a little heat, and some common substances to accelerate the reaction. The result is heat - a lot of it - that can be used to heat and cool houses, produce steam, and eventually run turbines that produce electricity. The physics behind it is not well understood - NASA scientists prefer the Widom-Larson theory, but you'd have to be a physicist to understand it. There seem to be several companies on the verge of delivering products based on this technology. Andrea Rossi's Leonardo Corp has the E-Cat - the Energy Catalyzer - and Defkalion is marketing their Hyperion reactor. Defkalion is offering to let independent parties study their device. Rossi's E-Cat has been demonstrated multiple times but has not been verified by independent scientists - he claims to be protecting his intellectual property and will let the products speak for themselves. The Rossi E-Cat is based on the work of scientist Sergio Focardi, whose work was based on an accidental discovery by Francesco Piantelli. This accidental discovery probably would have been overlooked if not for the work of Pons and Fleischman - who became laughingstocks over their claims of cold fusion in 1989.

It is without doubt that LENR is real. It is without doubt that NASA scientist Dr. Joseph Zawodny has submitted a patent application for a device that sounds exactly like Rossi's device. What is debatable is how it works and whether or not Rossi and others have a viable product - a question that will be answered soon. I believe they have.

This seems to fit here.

I will believe it when I see it.
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#212687 - 02/12/12 01:11 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
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#212696 - 02/12/12 03:19 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Greger]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/13/07
Posts: 2943
Loc: Eugene, OR
From your link:
Quote:
“This JET Energy NANOR(TM) demonstrated a significant energy gain greater than 10,” Swartz wrote.

But--but it goes to 11.

In case some missed my reference

Link


Edited by Ken Hill (02/12/12 03:23 PM)
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#212717 - 02/12/12 06:15 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Ken Condon]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
So... I mean, really, when you think about it, milliwatts and megawatts are just a few letters different.

If you can make, say, 100 milliwatts of power for a few seconds then you would only need thirty generators to light a 3 watt light bulb for an insufficient amount of time to use the light for anything - if the milliwatts were in the form of electricity.

If your milliwatts are in the form of heat, then you just need a slick way to convert your pretty much useless amount of heat into less than the equivalent in electricity.
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"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#257361 - 05/23/13 01:30 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: logtroll]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
Finally! Independent Testing Of Rossi...e After All
Quote:
What everyone wanted was something that Rossi has been promising was about to happen for months: An independent test by third parties who were credible. This report was delayed several times to the point where many were wondering whether it was all nothing more than what we have come to see as Rossi’s usual “jam tomorrow” promises. But much to my, and I suspect many other people’s surprise, a report by credible, independent third parties is exactly what we got.

Published on May 16, the paper titled “Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device” would appear to deliver what we wanted.

The paper was authored by Giuseppe Levi of Bologna University, Bologna, Italy; Evelyn Foschi, Bologna, Italy; Torbjörn Hartman, Bo Höistad, Roland Pettersson and Lars Tegnér of Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden; and Hanno Essén, of the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden. While some of these people have previously been public in their support of Rossi and the E-Cat they are all serious academics with reputations to lose and the paper is detailed and thorough.


Besides reputations, they all have continued employment and grants to lose.

Quote:
While a few commentators have raised criticisms concerning how the measurements were made and sources of error others have argued that the energy produced is so significant even knocking off an order of magnitude on either axis still portrays a process with insanely valuable output.

This is not, of course, the last word or even one anywhere near the end of this story but unless this is one of the most elaborate hoaxes in scientific history it looks like the world may well be about to change. How quick will depend solely on Rossi.

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#257364 - 05/23/13 03:47 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Joe Keegan]
Schlack Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
A small step, but not yet a sure or convincing one.

IM afraid Ill only be convinced when something goes into production .... (or Rossi is mysteriously killed)
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#257384 - 05/23/13 09:22 AM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
Let's hope to see it go into production before too much longer.

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#257425 - 05/23/13 09:45 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Schlack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10520
Loc: Downey, California
If the independent testing entity is named Martini, there won't be any need for additional PR help. Everyone knows about Martini and Rossi already. ROTFMOL
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"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#257426 - 05/23/13 10:20 PM Re: Cold fusion demonstration? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6353
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Last I saw Martini and Rossi they were on the rocks...
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"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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