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#20111 - 06/30/07 02:40 AM Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state.
Ron G. Offline
member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
1. Why does it seem that the question of a Palestinian state gains such urgency after 1967 - and particularly after 1973 - when the Arab manipulators of the refugee groups had spent two decades insisting that there was not going to be a separate Arab state?

2. Why was so much made of the "third holiest site in Islam" bit when beating the drum for the return of East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount to Arab control?

3. Why was the late Yasr Arafat unwilling to negotiate with the Israelis for the establishment of a new Arab state when they would probably have jumped at the chance to actually deal directly with him?
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#20126 - 06/30/07 05:24 AM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: Ron G.]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Well, this seems a case for applying Occam's razor, or as it is more formally known, "lex parsimoniae" (just felt like tossing in a bit of Latin since someone recently wrote that it should normally be a no-no in email or in forum discussion), or perhaps I am simply in the mood for climbing out on a limb and seeing what happens.:-)

Originally Posted By: Ron G.
1. Why does it seem that the question of a Palestinian state gains such urgency after 1967 - and particularly after 1973 - when the Arab manipulators of the refugee groups had spent two decades insisting that there was not going to be a separate Arab state?


The goal of many Arab states in the region has always been to eliminate Israel, and to that end they could certainly not condescend to agreeing to a separate Palestinian state to exist along side an Israeli state -- especially having rejected a two state solution in '47 http://www.mideastweb.org/unpartition.htm . After twice being defeated in war with Israel '67 and '73, they realized that they were not going to be able to defeat Israel by force of arms and would have to instead change there tactics and begin demanding that Palestinians get their own state, much of it being made up of the occupied territories captured by Israel in '67 war -- land that had belonged to Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

Quote:

2. Why was so much made of the "third holiest site in Islam" bit when beating the drum for the return of East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount to Arab control?


The Arab leaders know that a Jerusalem controlled by Jews gives the modern Israeli state a historic, cultural, and religious legitimacy. Secondly, from a religious standpoint al Aqsa sits upon the Temple Mount where the Jewish Temples were built, and where the third Temple is predicted to be restored near the End Times. If that were to happen guess whose God gets bonus points in the Middle East? Thirdly, it makes a very useful emotional "flashpoint" when needed for stirring up the Palestinian Muslims.:-)

Quote:

3. Why was the late Yasr Arafat unwilling to negotiate with the Israelis for the establishment of a new Arab state when they would probably have jumped at the chance to actually deal directly with him?


I believe that was offered to him along with a capitol in East Jerusalem at the Oslo Accords. He rejected it. My guess is, no "occupied territories", no "refugees". No refugees, no more reason for an Arafat. The Arafats of this world tend to place their own interests well ahead of anything else. If I recall correctly, after his first Oslo-mandated election, he never allowed another election.

There, I hope I haven't overly dulled Occam's razor, but that should get the discussion off to a stumbling start, wot? Now where did I set down that darned pop corn.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
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#20170 - 07/01/07 03:40 AM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Actually that razor looks pretty good, Iss. Now there are always two ways to speak the same truth. For example, re: Arab desire to eliminate Israel: Arabs did not want an Israel to begin with, so it is a bit disingenuous to speak of "eliminating Israel."

And of course, Arafat was a politician of the worst sort, a corrupt terrorist, even the Palestinians tried to get rid of him.

There are so many layers of lies and evil intentions in this issue that it may take decades to reach even a hint of reality and truth.


Edited by Phil Hoskins (07/01/07 03:45 AM)
Edit Reason: shpelling eras
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#20220 - 07/01/07 05:37 PM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: Phil Hoskins]
pdx rick Offline
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Isn't the Arab population going to overtake the Jewish population of Israel sometime in the not too distant future?

If it is the desire of Arabs to "wipe out the Jewish population in Israel" then why not let procreation/nature do that for them?

Time is either a friend or foe and patience is a virtue, but too many people want things to happen NOW!!
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#20225 - 07/01/07 06:12 PM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: Ron G.]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: Ron G.

3. Why was the late Yasr Arafat unwilling to negotiate with the Israelis for the establishment of a new Arab state when they would probably have jumped at the chance to actually deal directly with him?


Let's compare it to an analogous situation. There was a time when native Americans felt they were entitled to the entire land mass of the continent. At that time, they would not have wanted to negotiate the establishment of a colonial European state. Recently, these same native Americans seem to have lowered their sites to the right to run casinos on the marginal lands they have been allocated. Why do we suppose their attitude has changed?

Applying that analogy to the region once known as Palestine... There were people who had lived there for centuries. They felt disinclined to give away large sections of land to a new state largely peopled by recently arrived Europeans. Over time, they have begun to accept that the past is past and the need to accept something less than what they really feel is fair.

Now if I may rephrase your question...

Why are current Israelis unwilling to negotiate the establishment of a new Arab state that they would have thought entirely fair and equitable 30 years ago?
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#20228 - 07/01/07 07:17 PM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
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Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Ardy


Now if I may rephrase your question...

Why are current Israelis unwilling to negotiate the establishment of a new Arab state that they would have thought entirely fair and equitable 30 years ago?


I don't think it has been quite that long since Israel expressed an interest in a Palestinian state, Ardy.

Quote:

In July 2000, U.S. president Bill Clinton attempted to keep the Oslo Accords viable by convening a summit at Camp David between Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. There, Barak offered Arafat a Palestinian state in Gaza and 92% of the West Bank, and a capital in East Jerusalem ― the most generous offer ever from an Israeli government. Yassir Arafat rejected the offer and ended negotiations without a counteroffer.

SOURCE: http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/Yassir_Arafat3_1929-2004.asp
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#20231 - 07/01/07 07:57 PM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: issodhos

I don't think it has been quite that long since Israel expressed an interest in a Palestinian state, Ardy.

Quote:

In July 2000, U.S. president Bill Clinton attempted to keep the Oslo Accords viable by convening a summit at Camp David between Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. There, Barak offered Arafat a Palestinian state in Gaza and 92% of the West Bank, and a capital in East Jerusalem ― the most generous offer ever from an Israeli government. Yassir Arafat rejected the offer and ended negotiations without a counteroffer.

SOURCE: http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/Yassir_Arafat3_1929-2004.asp


I invite everyone to go to the link provided by Issodhos. Go there and look in the upper right corner to see the promotion of a one minute video about "Arafat's Dark Legacy"

In the "about us " section of the site, we read that "As an organization dedicated to defending Israel against prejudice in the Media, we aim to provide educational tools and resources to anyone wishing to advocate for Israel. "

I think it is fair to wonder if this is a wholly unbiased source of information to carry forward the discussion.

Here is a different perspective on the Oslo Accords and why they were not carried to completion.
Quote:

The Oslo accords set up a negotiating process without specifying an outcome. The process was supposed to have been completed by May 1999. There were many delays due to Israel's reluctance to relinquish control over the occupied territories, unwillingness to make the kinds of concessions necessary to reach a final status agreement, and periodic outbursts of violence by Palestinian opponents of the Oslo process, especially HAMAS and Jihad. During the Likud's return to power in 1996-99, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu avoided engaging seriously in the Oslo process, which he distrusted and fundamentally opposed.

During the protracted interim period of the Oslo process, Israel's Labor and Likud governments built new settlements in the occupied territories, expanded existing settlements and constructed a network of bypass roads to enable Israeli settlers to travel from their settlements to Israel proper without passing through Palestinian-inhabited areas. These projects were understood by most Palestinians as marking out territory that Israel sought to annex in the final settlement. The Oslo accords contained no mechanism to block these unilateral actions or Israel's violations of Palestinian human and civil rights in areas under its control.

http://www.merip.org/Palestine-Israel_primer/Oslo-accords-pal-isr-prime.html

The above quote I furnished raised an interesting point. Is it a fact that Israel continued to establish "settlements" as the Oslo process was ongoing? As I recall, the USA received commitments from Israel that they would not establish more settlements. Why would Israel commit the USA not to establish new settlements... and then violate that commitment... all the while they are supposedly doing their level best to establish peace on fair terms under the Oslo accords... where they also said they would not establish new settlements. I just cannot figure it out.




Edited by Ardy (07/01/07 07:59 PM)
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#20235 - 07/01/07 09:44 PM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: Ardy]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC
It's important to bear in mind that Yassir Arafat does have a dark legacy.

Legacy: A bequest, a gift by will

Arafat has indeed been given a dark legacy. We can examine his life from many different angles and see how he was the same, or different, from any other world leader who may, or may not, be an ally or an enemy. To give credence to this postulate, google "Reza Pahlavi's Legacy".

If one examines the United Nations records, one will find that the Israeli government has been censured for building settlements in Palestinian Territory more often than any other country has been cited for any act. Perhaps that explains why Zionists think the United Nations is a corrupt waste of time and space.

What it really explains, however, is the difference between Israelis who live in Palestine and Palestinians who live in Palestine. Israelis can fire thousands of missiles at a neighboring country, doing billions of dollars worth of damage and killing scores of thousands, and the world debates whether or not to ask Israel to restrain itself from its defensive actions. Palestinians can fire a few homemade rockets that do thousands of dollars worth of damage and kill a dozen or less, and the world condemns them with such severity as to impose a blockade causing widespread starvation, and to allow the Occupying Forces to abscond with their tax revenues.

Which brings up another, very major, difference between Israel and Palestine. Israel occupies Palestine. Palestine does not occupy Israel.
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Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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#20240 - 07/01/07 10:18 PM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Ardy

I invite everyone to go to the link provided by Issodhos. Go there and look in the upper right corner to see the promotion of a one minute video about "Arafat's Dark Legacy"

In the "about us " section of the site, we read that "As an organization dedicated to defending Israel against prejudice in the Media, we aim to provide educational tools and resources to anyone wishing to advocate for Israel. "


Did I not, in effect, invite everyone to go to the link, Ardy? And is there anything in the link that would indicate that its owners were not being upfront about who they are and what their purpose is? And was I not simply responding to the "30 year" figure you cited in the question you posed with the intent of taking the thread away from the original three questions asked by the original poster at the request of Stereoman in another thread?

And again, in addressing your 30 year claim, did not the Oslo Accords of 1993 have a stated date for the establishment of a Palestinian state? If so, then your 30 year claim may not be as accurate as I am sure you thought it was.
Yours,
Issodhos
p.s. Any opinion on questions 1 and 2?
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#20241 - 07/01/07 10:41 PM Re: Three questions on Jerusalem and a new Arab state. [Re: stereoman]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: stereoman

What it really explains, however, is the difference between Israelis who live in Palestine and Palestinians who live in Palestine. ...snip...


Actually, Israelis (Arab and Jewish)live in the state of Israel and those who are today politically designated as "Palestinians" live in either the state of Israel or the portion of the Palestinian region currently or formerly occupied by Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.

Quote:

Which brings up another, very major, difference between Israel and Palestine. Israel occupies Palestine. Palestine does not occupy Israel.


This is true. Palestine is a geographical region and as such, is no more capable of occupying than is Antarctica.

Any opinion on the three questions asked by Ron G. for which you asked him to create a separate post?
Yours,
Issodhos
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