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#204509 - 12/17/11 08:00 AM How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6354
Loc: Florida/Illinois
How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men and Helped Make the U.S. Into a Selfish, Greedy Nation
Quote:
Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a curious new phase in our society....To justify and extol human greed and egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil.— Gore Vidal, 1961

Only rarely in U.S. history do writers transform us to become a more caring or less caring nation. In the 1850s, Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811-1896) was a strong force in making the United States a more humane nation, one that would abolish slavery of African Americans. A century later, Ayn Rand (1905-1982) helped make the United States into one of the most uncaring nations in the industrialized world, a neo-Dickensian society where healthcare is only for those who can afford it, and where young people are coerced into huge student-loan debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.




Edited by itstarted (12/17/11 08:25 AM)
Edit Reason: remove snarky comment
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In what concerns you much, do not think that you have companions: know that you are alone in the world. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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#204520 - 12/17/11 09:28 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
I don't know how much credit I would actually give Ms. Rand for the way things turned out here. Perhaps easy credit, super-consumerism and the resulting debt load on Americans led them to this sad state of affairs. "Atlas Shrugged" actually saw an increase in sales after the stock market crashed in 2008. Were Rand's new readers seeking ways, through her philosophy, to somehow hang on to what they had in times of great economic turmoil?
Did they find solace in her sour and cynical selfishness in a time when selflessness might have better served the nation as a whole? Or did they find that she endorsed nothing more than the wealthy ruling the world as is their natural predilection anyway. It's all good, I suppose, if you think the wealthy are better people than the poor. I have seldom found that to be the case though.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#204531 - 12/17/11 12:02 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
My goodness gentlemen, must I warn you to be very careful that some woman can remove your manhood by simply writing a book? Bill Bennett just wrote a new book on the subject of the loss of American men.

The youth of today are very much interested in Rand's philosophy. Greger, give me an example of her sour and cynical selfishness. I'll give you sour and cynical selfishness and it is called Newt Gingrich. In fact the entire Bush 43 administration ran on real selfishness. Our House and Senate is loaded with sour and selfish attitudes.

Rand wrote a simple book about America at a time when the voters became collective in their politics and the individual was ignored. This is what is happening in America at this time. The collective ran all over the individual and the corporations and banks began to suffer just like today.

The American Industrial leaders went on strike.They did not demonstrate on the streets like Occupy is doing today, they disappeared. Nobody knew where they went and American industry began to shut down. Many books and movies have been done when aliens take over the cities, but in this case, our leaders disappeared. The mystery of where they went and why was cleared up with a speech that lasted for many pages. It takes an open mind to follow the speech so don't bother.

Reader Rant is interested only in wealth and Rand never mentions it which is why she will never be understood here. To Rand, there are good peoole and bad people and wealth has nothing to do with any of it.

I will not waste my time explaining what selfishness means to Rand. You can give it your own definition which will not even be close. I don't care what anyone here believes as the level of shallowness is shocking.

Greger, I'm sorry you did not go on to a good University. If you had, you would have read Atlas Shrugged with an open mind. Too late now, you will always settle for the easy road of getting into the good books. Maybe they will make a cartoon out of Atlas Shrugged and you can follow it. Talk it over with Numan and find the answer to her meaning.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#204537 - 12/17/11 12:37 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The youth of today are very much interested in Rand's philosophy
.
Can you offer me any proof that the youth of today have any interest in Ayn Rand or her philosophy? I suspect very few have ever even heard of her or care at all what her philosophy might have been.



Quote:
Greger, give me an example of her sour and cynical selfishness. I'll give you sour and cynical selfishness and it is called Newt Gingrich. In fact the entire Bush 43 administration ran on real selfishness. Our House and Senate is loaded with sour and selfish attitudes.

I certainly agree with that. That is why I am so completely against everything to do with the Republican party.
Everything. Including their Randian selfishness.


Quote:
Rand wrote a simple book about America at a time when the voters became collective in their politics and the individual was ignored. This is what is happening in America at this time. The collective ran all over the individual and the corporations and banks began to suffer just like today.

Excuse me ma'am but the way I see it the BANKS AND THE CORPORATIONS ran all over the individual. They aren't suffering in the least. It is the collective which includes 99% of American Individuals who are suffering. :\

Quote:
The American Industrial leaders went on strike.

No they didn't. The went to China, India, and Mexico for cheaper labor. They still live and work here. We have recently begun calling them THE 1%. It was they who pulled the rug out from under the American Individual.

Quote:
Reader Rant is interested only in wealth

Sandy it is you who seem to be fascinated with wealth. I read Atlas Shrugged with a completely open mind and carried nothing away from it there is truly nothing there for the modern mind to embrace. You are the one who appears cartoonish here in your admiration of a woman and a philosophy largely forgotten because it was too shallow to be truly taken seriously.

A simple book, for a simple time, beloved by simple people.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#204544 - 12/17/11 01:26 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: sandune
...I'll give you sour and cynical selfishness and it is called Newt Gingrich. In fact the entire Bush 43 administration ran on real selfishness. Our House and Senate is loaded with sour and selfish attitudes.

I certainly agree with that. That is why I am so completely against everything to do with the Republican party.
Everything. Including their Randian selfishness.

Them bastids isn't just Randian, theys randy, to boot.

Randy Randians, yup.
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#204577 - 12/17/11 05:42 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
I certainly hope that as many young men as possible have been seduced by Ayn Rand---and for as long as possible !!

That should be a big help in removing from the population any genes connected with stupidity and delusional thinking (of which there seem to be a superfluity in the American public). · · · grin
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#204585 - 12/17/11 06:04 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11524
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
I am not so bothered that she seduced so many young men... but the manner is which she leveraged her extraordinary sex appeal in order to corrupt the intellect and values of so many young innocents.
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"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#204598 - 12/17/11 06:46 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ardy
I am not so bothered that she seduced so many young men... but the manner is which she leveraged her extraordinary sex appeal in order to corrupt the intellect and values of so many young innocents.

The ones what was randy fer Rand herself? (Ayn't that perverse!)
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#204609 - 12/17/11 09:14 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: logtroll]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11524
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll

The ones what was randy fer Rand herself? (Ayn't that perverse!)


I shudder...
although who knows...
perhaps in skin tight black leather with a riding crop twitching to life in her hands....


Edited by Ardy (12/17/11 09:16 PM)
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#204612 - 12/17/11 09:44 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
Originally Posted By: Ardy
I shudder...
although who knows...
perhaps in skin tight black leather with a riding crop twitching to life in her hands....

Oooh, Ardy, what an provocative evocative piece of writing !

I think I may have gained a new insight into your literary interests !! · · · grin

I must admit that it fits my image of Ayn Rand very well !!
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#204628 - 12/18/11 12:21 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Originally Posted By: logtroll

The ones what was randy fer Rand herself? (Ayn't that perverse!)


I shudder...
although who knows...
perhaps in skin tight black leather with a riding crop twitching to life in her hands....


Generating images of a new soap opera:

As the Stomach Turns
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Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#204629 - 12/18/11 12:21 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
My gorge is becoming buoyant in my craw.
I feel some projectile vomiting coming on.

The thought of Ayn Rand inflagrante delicto is a disturbing visual.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#204639 - 12/18/11 09:02 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
I belong to many Secular organizations that come directly from the major Universities across America. My own kids are still involved in their University of California groups that call for individual actions over the mass of sheep that we call the American voters. Yes indeed, Rand is still the leader of individual thinkers and action starters. My young intellectuals would laugh at the thought that Rand was striving to be a sex symbol within her own groups. In every single book, her heroes were intellectuals and I cannot recall a single character who had an ounce of sex appeal.

Sex appeal is the focus of millions of television-addicted people, not Objectivists. I was writing of the industrialists from Atlas Shrugged who went on strike rather than join the government-agenda of collectivism. These industrialists did not go on strike to make money as they had a higher focus on individual rights. Rand is so far ahead of anyone on Reader Rant that your bring up her name shows your ignorance of her philosophy. You may be in the majority but it does not make you superior in any way.

Many of us who meet somewhere in America at least once a year love to bring up Rand's name which acts as a level of ignorance found in America. It does not mean our secular work is weak, it means that America is is growing more vulnerable to the power of the government. It comes down to the fact that we no longer raise ideal humans. It takes generations of free thinkers to make a generation of ideal leaders.

Reader Rant wants financial equality instead of individual equality. Wealth drives this site and sets up an impossible standard of financial stability.

Rand became wealthy when she introduced her philosophy of equality through a basic set of moral standards of the individual. Her heroes did not cave into the masses that had taken over all levels of city, county, and State standards for success. Her heroes knew right from wrong and to never question their own ideals.

In America, the individuals are afraid to stand up to any organized group of government leaders or even any group of demonstrators. I believe that the internet is made up of people terrified of taking a stand on anything outside of the internet. It has given you a voice that leads nowhere.

If you ever could organize into an action group, you would never be able to agree even on the chosen agenda. You honestly believe that you have the power to debate Objectivity without having respect for Rand. You insist upon making her some kind of right wing nut and when that doesn't fit, you want to use her non-existent sex appeal which is laughable.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#204642 - 12/18/11 09:26 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 558
Looks like you've found your own religion Sandy. It's funny how the human mind will often crave an allegiance or need to identify with a group.
Randianism, Holy Objectivism, whatever.... Seems that the only thing that separates a religion from a cult is size of membership.

Meanwhile, the rest of the dirty and unwashed will go on seeking a way to pay the bills, send kids thru school, pay for the health industry premiums and not get fleeced from the pimps and hustlers.

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#204643 - 12/18/11 09:41 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Sandune
...In every single book, her heroes were intellectuals and I cannot recall a single character who had an ounce of sex appeal.

That can get in the way of reproduction.

Originally Posted By: Sandune
... Rand is so far ahead of anyone on Reader Rant ...

You mean dead and buried?

Originally Posted By: Sandune
...It comes down to the fact that we no longer raise ideal humans. It takes generations of free thinkers to make a generation of ideal leaders.

See, the lack of reproduction is problematic.

Originally Posted By: Sandune
Reader Rant wants...

Who is Reader Rant?

Originally Posted By: Sandune
...Her heroes knew right from wrong and to never question their own ideals.

That sounds like the taxedenoughalreadypartypatriots.

Originally Posted By: Sandune
... her non-existent sex appeal which is laughable.

At least we agree on that!
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#204648 - 12/18/11 12:30 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Oh please Sandy, spare me the cult worship.
I pray for the day we can figure out a way to forcibly EJECT the Galts from this society so we can make way for a new generation of free thinkers who are not paranoid of compassion.

Just because you speak with conviction doesn't mean jack squat.
Your screeds are the living embodiment to my signature. (BELOW)
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#204659 - 12/18/11 03:21 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
When we are born, or when we breed our own children, we should be aware of the great men and women who we are and who we produce. I see this is shunned here at Reader Rant. So we give birth and hope for the best? No effort is being made to strive for any level of ideal. Those of us who do are laughed at or called trying to form a religion.

Checkers, Galt rejected himself from a society so rabid to destroy itself that most of the characters in her book had no clue what it meant. Well, Reader Rant is also lost in a world so eager to be destroyed that there is no purpose for the site.

Twelve years ago the Reader Rant group was totally involved in Jesus Christ. Now with a new posters, it is wrapped around a redistribution of wealth that rides on Socialism. When you socialists get tired of the same old itshay that oozes from today's voters, where will you go?

Labels are all you have to offer. Everything and everybody must have a label but there is no agenda of improvement anywhere. To work on improvement from our own set of principles or those from our children must not veer from the norm. You offer nothing but the same old itshay you have grown up with.

Okay, CHB has struck again with what must be the most losing group of members I've ever seen since the religious right moved on to another site. I'm willing to move on in my search for an Amrrican set of values that is based on a better human individual being.

Who will raise your children? the schools? the television? Haveyou nothing of value to teach them to accept? You repel even the word "ideal" as it if means a lower element of acceptability. Did you ever look at a house and immediately make mental changes to make the house more ideal? Or do you live in developments where all houses are the same? Will you raise your kids to be all the same? Will junior college be what you want for your children because anything better would cause them to fail. Or are you guys simply accepting the way you are and that is good enough for your kids? This is exactly what Rand found unacceptable and the problem with America of the 1950's

You come off as a level of society lacking in academics, imagination and the will to improve. She chose a very simple rather ditzy blonde who carried all these weaknesses but was able to see through her own misspent life and woke up to the truth. If you really read Shrugged you should remember Dagney's sister in law.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#204662 - 12/18/11 03:44 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'

Sandune, I agree with you in your horror of parents permitting television to raise their children.

That is acquiescing in something truly satanic.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#204665 - 12/18/11 04:01 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune
When we are born, or when we breed our own children, we should be aware of the great men and women who we are and who we produce. I see this is shunned here at Reader Rant. So we give birth and hope for the best? No effort is being made to strive for any level of ideal. Those of us who do are laughed at or called trying to form a religion.


You tell ME how it's different from a religion Sandy.

1) You castigate those who don't follow your idol.

2) You refuse to listen to ANYTHING someone outside the cult says...examples to follow.

3) Your guru's exalted character, John Galt, thinks he's able to punish society for not kneeling down and worshipping his cadre of wealthy philandering robber barons.

Quote:
Checkers, Galt rejected himself from a society so rabid to destroy itself that most of the characters in her book had no clue what it meant. Well, Reader Rant is also lost in a world so eager to be destroyed that there is no purpose for the site.


ROTFMOL tinfoilhat
"a society so rabid to destroy itself that most of the characters in her book had no clue what it meant"

What in HELL does that above sentence mean?
The characters in her book didn't know what WHAT meant?
They didn't know what society meant so they wanted to leave?
Good, let them leave!
Still, the above sentence doesn't really make sense.
All I get from it is something akin to what my son said when he was five, wanting to run away from home.

Quote:

Twelve years ago the Reader Rant group was totally involved in Jesus Christ.


That was twelve years ago. So what?

EXAMPLE #1
Quote:
Now with a new posters, it is wrapped around a redistribution of wealth that rides on Socialism. When you socialists get tired of the same old itshay that oozes from today's voters, where will you go?


Remember when I said (a few lines up) that I would provide EXAMPLES?

No matter how many times I or anyone else lays out concrete specific examples of how we are not interested in "redistribution of wealth" you keep coming back to it like it's some magic phrase that you can use like a stun gun to silence opposition. But you're not unique Sandy. I hear the exact same phrase repeatedly and continuously from OTHER Randians everywhere.

They've been taught to trot out the old "you wealth redistributionists" whenever they feel threatened.
But I know that I've proven that redistribution of wealth is not the goal, at least not for me or most of the folks I know here. What most people want is the EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to either SAVE the wealth they have, through common sense regulation of the banks and investment brokerages (i.e. no more vanishing 401k's) or an equal opportunity at upward mobility (i.e. decent jobs that pay a living wage) and they want to live in a society that cares for its poor the way any moral society would.
But you don't hear that, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You keep trotting out those pat phrases thinking that they have magical powers Sandy.
It's like hearing a stepchild screaming "you're not my REAL MOM!"



EXAMPLE #2
Quote:
Labels are all you have to offer.


See your rant above, the one that says,
"it is wrapped around a redistribution of wealth that rides on Socialism."

Sandy, labels are all YOU have to offer.

Quote:
Everything and everybody must have a label but there is no agenda of improvement anywhere.


I call feeding the poor and fighting for proper wages and working conditions improvement. Sorry your Galt types disagree.
They call it "wealth redistribution". We call it "the right to a livable wage".

Quote:
To work on improvement from our own set of principles or those from our children must not veer from the norm. You offer nothing but the same old itshay you have grown up with.


Whatever. The same old itshay I grew up with WORKED.
We had a one income family which was able to purchase a home, feed the kids, send us to universities for higher education and even save money for the future.
Same old itshay Sandy?? That's what I want babe, I want the system that PROVED that it worked by providing ME with s stable childhood and proper education, and a decent future.

Quote:
Okay, CHB has struck again with what must be the most losing group of members I've ever seen since the religious right moved on to another site. I'm willing to move on in my search for an Amrrican set of values that is based on a better human individual being.


Then get the feck on already. Who's stopping you?
Do the Galt thing and head for that private island!


Quote:
Who will raise your children? the schools? the television? Haveyou nothing of value to teach them to accept? You repel even the word "ideal" as it if means a lower element of acceptability. Did you ever look at a house and immediately make mental changes to make the house more ideal? Or do you live in developments where all houses are the same? Will you raise your kids to be all the same? Will junior college be what you want for your children because anything better would cause them to fail. Or are you guys simply accepting the way you are and that is good enough for your kids? This is exactly what Rand found unacceptable and the problem with America of the 1950's


No we KNOW what she found unacceptable.
She found compassion unacceptable.

Originally Posted By: Sandune
You come off as a level of society lacking in academics, imagination and the will to improve. She chose a very simple rather ditzy blonde who carried all these weaknesses but was able to see through her own misspent life and woke up to the truth. If you really read Shrugged you should remember Dagney's sister in law.


You wouldn't know Sandy because no matter what anyone writes in response it's as if you skipped over everything they said, and then you go right back to your peculiar brand of "automatic writing".
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#204666 - 12/18/11 04:04 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: numan]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: numan
'

Sandune, I agree with you in your horror of parents permitting television to raise their children.

That is acquiescing in something truly satanic.


Then you should spend time in our home. Neither kid watches TV anymore. The youngest never watched anything except ONE program. Oh he watched it religiously but aside from that he never watched anything else. Once that show was over he was off in pursuit of some other activity.
The daughter never watched much of anything on TV.
I think she watched one cartoon and I don't even remember what it was. The only things that caught her attention was the movie Titanic and Apollo 13.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#204669 - 12/18/11 04:36 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11524
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: Sandune
In every single book, her heroes were intellectuals and I cannot recall a single character who had an ounce of sex appeal.


I could understand a single character as you describe... but have it as a badge of honor that no single character of several very large novels has an ounce of sex appeal? It seems to me this is a clear admission that Rand lived in a world of her own intellectual construction... a world essentially devoid of humanity outside of her fantasy about what humanity "should" be.

She was inviting others to come live in her world where all passion is intellectual--transcending deplorable sexuality? This is the great hope for the future of the world? Hmm
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#204693 - 12/18/11 07:51 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 558
'When we breed our children.......'

I think that says it all. Is it me or is Randian philosophy basically saying this:

Research suggests that, “psychopaths are a stable proportion of any population, can be from any segment of society, may constitute a distinct taxonomical class forged by frequency-dependent natural selection, and that the muting of the social emotions is the proximate mechanism that enables psychopaths to pursue their self-centered goals without felling the pangs of guilt

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#204698 - 12/18/11 08:03 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
'When we breed our children.......'

I think that says it all. Is it me or is Randian philosophy basically saying this:

Research suggests that, “psychopaths are a stable proportion of any population, can be from any segment of society, may constitute a distinct taxonomical class forged by frequency-dependent natural selection, and that the muting of the social emotions is the proximate mechanism that enables psychopaths to pursue their self-centered goals without felling the pangs of guilt

Or, in colloquial American wisdom (per NUMAN!), "If she ayn't good enuff fer her own kind, she ayn't good enuff fer us."
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#204702 - 12/18/11 08:34 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Sandy, I am personally offended by your broad brushstroke arguments and demeaning labeling. I happen to be someone with a strong liberal arts education, who did read Ayn Rand in high school, and would not recommend her books for either literary value or philosophy. I did recommend that my children read her with an open mind and discuss its implications. Both did so, and because they are free thinkers and compassionate human beings, found the philosophy behind the stories simplistic and objectionable, and the stories themselves painfully boring. I have never been a fan, but I did nothing directly to dissuade them in reading with objectivity. Lots of people reject her books and thinking, and she was, personally, frankly, a terrible human being.

Whether it is Rand herself, or the nature of the philosophy she espoused, it and its various derivatives and perversions, like Nietzche's before her, been the source for considerable pain and a demeaning of the human condition. I hage never been a fan of absolutism, and it strikes me as odd that those who castigate people of whatever faith, are equally willing to castigate those who reject the 'teachings' of a latter-day prophet, because they legitimately disagree with her underlying premises.

I have yet to find a Rand acolyte who can expess their understanding of her philosophy with any degree of erudition, or are even modestly aware of her personal failings as a human being.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204734 - 12/19/11 01:01 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
David Clark Offline
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Registered: 12/17/11
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A major theme of Rand's work is can a perfect man survive in an imperfect society... In other words, can a average man with basic moral values survive in a corrupt society? I don't know about use guys, but I can identify with that.

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#204739 - 12/19/11 04:15 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: David Clark]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: David Clark
A major theme of Rand's work is can a perfect man survive in an imperfect society... In other words, can a average man with basic moral values survive in a corrupt society? I don't know about use guys, but I can identify with that.



Perfect man--average man? Is the average man perfect, or the perfect man average?

I think that Jane Austin covered very similar themes... in a much different manner.

Where is the difference? I think that Jane Austin had a much different view of why society was corrupt, and what constitutes basic moral values.

Can a man with a sociopathic "Moral" commitment to selfishness survive in a society that thinks this conception of "morality" is immoral, and stupid as well?

IMO the Randian philosophy sounds more like autism than basic moral values.
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#204747 - 12/19/11 08:41 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I believe it was Mark Twain who wrote of how the Moral Sense is the great downfall of mankind.
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"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#204758 - 12/19/11 11:17 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Welcome to RR, David Clark! Can anyone really express Rand's 'philosophy' of objectivism in a simple and coherent way? Even her most ardent acolytes routinely fail to do so, even under the mildest of critiques. The basic problem is that, like libertarianism and Marxism, it fails the test of human practicality. 'Great in theory, but of no practical value whatever.' Only, I would modify that, as it is 'not so great in theory.'
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204759 - 12/19/11 11:18 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
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Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
Ayn Rand speaks clearly and precisely to most free thinking Americans. Reader Ranters are terrified of discussing the changes that face every single American prior to a major election. Somehow many of you believe you are somehow superior because you have a voice on the Internet.

We all were exposed to the concept of having the government enforce equality through the redistribution of wealth. It came with the public school agenda from coast to coast. But not all of us keep the same opinions of our teachers. Some of us took to the books instead of the brain-killing television and many of us took a long hard look at how many of our neighbor’s kids turned out with no chance at living as individuals.

To an open mind, Rand stirs the brain and forces her readers into another plain of opinions. She counters any expression of religion and that stirred the churches into calling her some very ugly labels. The label making has been a Republican tool stirred by the Conservatives to call anyone not in their corner a heretic and enemy of American values. This was not a surprise to me as I had read “The Fountainhead” and saw this future of American politics destroying anyone who dared to take another view at architectural design and upgrading the use of a development. Rand was describing the religious right and their emphasis on maintaining the same old same old. The individual who designed this development burned it to the ground but when he was put on trial for his action, made a speech to the jury and won his case. It was the first book I had read that waved the flag of individualism and I was hooked on Rand.

I kept thinking back on Ben Franklin as I read Rourk’s speech over and over and I began to understand the horrible pressure Franklin, Jefferson, and Madison were under when they revised the Constitution over and over. All of these founders were individuals and wanted a government that could keep their hands off the citizens. How else could an American reach full capacity of his/her dreams? In America every citizen has the right to succeed and to fail.

Rand would have a fit if she could read and listen to the campaign speeches being given prior to this primary. She was very strong on education for the next generation and she mentioned this several times in her lectures that I attended. Every generation of our children must be taught the strengths that are passed down through the generations and even the weaknesses must be addressed and corrected. It was after one of her lectures that I dumped the television so that I would have the full attention of my kids without the crap from the television. I’ve written about how I did this and even included some of the neighbor’s kids in our discussion time.

Reader Rant cannot tell the difference between ideal and elite and any suggestion is considered an insult to the forum. You represent the world of television and I cannot follow much in the way of discussions. My suggestion of trying for a better generation within our own family units has driven many of you into labels and insults. Ayn Rand faced the same sort of criticism and laughed it off. I too will ignore what flies back at me from this forum. She is still widely read in the major universities because she is known for her development of an individual brain. The churches despise her as they have spent billions of dollars and centuries of brain washing to get control of the American voters. The next generations will not let this continue. But will they get into the voting booths fast enough to keep America from being destroyed from within? I cannot locate a single member of reader rant who values the power of an individual over the power of the collective. Maybe Issodhos…..You all would have found Rourke guilty of burning down his own development. What was really neat was to see this movie in a theater when the audience stood up and cheered when Rourke was found innocent. Today the audience would boo just as they do when anyone dares counter anything Perry or Bachman says. It is all in the art of lowering the standards to include everyone. Our schools are run on this premise and soon our sick patients will be cured as masses rather than individuals.
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#204763 - 12/19/11 11:49 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
No one holds a gun to your head and makes you read what others say here, Sandy.
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#204764 - 12/19/11 12:04 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ted Remington]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida

Churlpat, Sandy doesn't read what others say here.

She has a mind like a steel trap: Fool with it and it slams shut.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#204768 - 12/19/11 01:12 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
David Clark Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 16
The curse of all animal kind: Individual freedom vs. the collective will.

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#204769 - 12/19/11 01:33 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 11738
David C., you strike the nail upon the flat end. It is a balance we always strive to achieve. The reason that Rand chose to set Atlas Shrugged in an alternative universe is because the real world doesn't work like that.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204770 - 12/19/11 01:49 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Chuck Howard Offline
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Registered: 09/17/01
Posts: 6723
Loc: Philly 'burbs
As I've stated here before, I prefer Tom Joad to John Galt as a "fictional hero." At least Mr. Joad's "experience" had some basis in reality.

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#204781 - 12/19/11 03:19 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#204782 - 12/19/11 03:23 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Sandy, as much as I once admired you, your constant non-responsiveness to any questions and your continual screeds force me to regard you as something akin to the Moonies who sell candles on the corner, yelling that if Americans would just unify behind Reverend Moon all would be well.

(MOONIES: Followers of Reverend Sun Myung Moon)
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#204788 - 12/19/11 03:54 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
David Clark Offline
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Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 16
I'm an Orwell fan myself. Animal Farm, 1984, now there are a couple of good doses of reality. Or Clockwork Orange was great but I don't recall who wrote it.

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#204790 - 12/19/11 04:12 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Sandune
...
Reader Rant cannot tell the difference between ideal and elite...

I asked you this before, who is Reader Rant?

Originally Posted By: Sandune
You all would have found Rourke guilty...

Who is Rourke? I read some Rand but I don't remember anybody named Rourke. dunce

ROTFMOL
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#204792 - 12/19/11 04:18 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I'm with you, there, David… at least those stories were interesting. When I get back to my computer, I am willing to provide a lengthy critique of Rand's "objectivism" with citations but I'm not there now, and it would only be interesting if someone else wants to play along.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204794 - 12/19/11 04:27 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
David Clark Offline
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Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 16
The Fountainhead, I read liked and admired. Atlas Shrugged I never cared for and don't believe I ever finished reading it.

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#204795 - 12/19/11 04:32 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: David Clark]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
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I guess I've been a wealth redistributing socialist collectivist all my life because I didn't care for either of them. I agree that The Fountainhead was the superior of the two though.
I may have been too open minded(or empty minded) and apolitical at that early time in my life because the philosophy failed completely to make an impression on me.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#204801 - 12/19/11 05:15 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Greger]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Originally Posted By: Greger

...the philosophy failed completely to make an impression on me.

That is because there is nothing resembling philosophy there.

Ayn Rand, like most political fanatics, had very screwy ideas about what philosophy is.

When you see someone tossing around the phrase "political philosophy" without ever really defining it, you can be pretty sure that the individual is an air-head as far as knowing anything about REAL philosophy.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#204810 - 12/19/11 05:47 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
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Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
Having never questioned your own premise within any position puts you in the category of non-interest in getting involved in anything. I sometimes envy people like you until it gets close to another election and then I tend to feel sorry for your lack of giving a damn. When many Americans are placed in front of a television until they are placed in a class room makes the elections worthless. My age group was trying to find out what the hell we were doing in WW2 and then into Korea and Vietnam. But those of us who were readers discovered many writers who woke us up and made us find our place in America's future. WW2 brought millions of Americans from other parts of the nation into California and it was shock to our academics that so many new neighbors were unprepared for any new point of view.

My grandmother's generation were all journalists who had done much of the input into the Temple of the history of the Mormon People. Suddenly we became the enemy of the new residents of Santa Monica and my grandmother did not take this lightly. I have never considered myself superior just because I read many books but I did find myself in a class of teenager all on my own. When I read "The Fountainhead, I figured she had written this for me. Her Biography "We The Living" showed me why Communism had to be destroyed in America. I found a library of her essays and had to go back to Plato - Aristotle to appreciate her points of view. She never wrote short stories but did a short play in college. Rand is not easy reading and I'm not surprised that so few have actually read her writings and will simply quote others who have read her. I'm quite used to that. When I found a group of 6 members of the Hughes Falcon Missile program who had read and understood Rand, my development in Objectivism began to grow. It would never work at Reader Rant as this is a typical internet group of limited thinkers on any subject. This is not the first time this point of view about this site has been written.

None of you can locate a sound political point of view so you attack the words of others. I guess the word is middle of the road and no desire to find another road. I've had enough.

Rand is not your enemy. Your own lack of reading the words of some very great writers is your worst enemy. We lost a great writer over the weekend when Chris Hitchens died. Unless this forum starts reading the great writers of this world of America, there is no hope for anything other than Socialism to be part of the American political agenda. Hopefully in another 10 years, there might be some new thinkers to add to the Reader Rant Membership. In the last 10 years, the membership has changed but it has not drawn in the kind of free thinkers that come only from massive reading.
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#204813 - 12/19/11 05:53 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 11738
Who is "you", Sandy? I have no idea who/what you are responding to, or I could hazard an intelligible response.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204818 - 12/19/11 06:11 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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I, too, found Fountainhead a more interesting story. Where I think Rand began to go wrong was in taking herself too seriously, and she began to believe her own press too much. There is a good article I will try to provide a link to, I think it is titled "the most unlikely cult" or something like that, since the "collective" started out as an inside joke, but ended as just a joke. One of the author's points is the tendency of 'Randians' to defend anything about critical of her or her philosophy as heretical.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204823 - 12/19/11 06:54 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: numan]
keysersoze Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 880
Originally Posted By: numan
'
Originally Posted By: Greger

...the philosophy failed completely to make an impression on me.

That is because there is nothing resembling philosophy there.

Ayn Rand, like most political fanatics, had very screwy ideas about what philosophy is.

When you see someone tossing around the phrase "political philosophy" without ever really defining it, you can be pretty sure that the individual is an air-head as far as knowing anything about REAL philosophy.


Yes folks - we have a winner! Well, boys, that is a direct hit and right on target.

Years ago I attended a Rand lecture at the Ford Hall Forum and found it a convoluted mess. What the hell was she saying? I mean she had this coterie of glitterati hovering around her but it reminded me of a fortune teller getting one statement right and ten wrong but you drift away satisfied.

During the Q & A i managed to ask that as an individual concerned only with existing for my own sake I should ignore charity to others? Just a smart ass question, really. The answer was like listening to my grandmother after hitting the vodka bottle.

I went as a demand from a professor I had who was my adviser. And he had briefly discussed her works in class in class and wanted a brief one page opinion. I just wrote that "It must be me because I was lost. She just seems like a bullshit artist." He just smiled and nodded. Of course he was a socialist.
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#204835 - 12/19/11 07:24 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
I would say that she got about 40% of her "philosophy" right, which is about where I was in high school, too. Then I grew up, and learned more. Some people don't grow, and Ayn Rand was one of those. Some people can't accept that there were significant holes in her epistemology, and even more in her political philosophy. She was quite able to hold her own amongst non-academics, but not amongst professional thinkers. I will provide a true critique, again, when I can get to my computer (reading/posting from mobile devices hasnits limits).
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204836 - 12/19/11 07:26 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
Spell check is one of them. wink
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204840 - 12/19/11 07:33 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
David Clark Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 16
A philosophy is not philosophy. A philosophy is the set of values, opinions, and ideas of a group or individual. Philosophy is the logical study of the nature and source of human knowledge or human values. A philosophy is nothing but an opinion. Philosophy is everything.

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#204842 - 12/19/11 07:43 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
David Clark Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 16
If you asked 20 different people what the theme of one of Hemingway's works was, you would get twenty different answers. Yet, whenever Hemingway was asked he would answer it was written with no theme intended. Authors can really get into trouble when they try to appear to be as smart as they are perceived to be.,

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#204845 - 12/19/11 08:09 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
The following is a short description of Objectivism given by Ayn Rand in 1962.
by Ayn Rand

At a sales conference at Random House, preceding the publication of Atlas Shrugged, one of the book salesmen asked me whether I could present the essence of my philosophy while standing on one foot. I did as follows:

Metaphysics Objective Reality
Epistemology Reason
Ethics Self-interest
Politics Capitalism

If you want this translated into simple language, it would read: 1. “Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed” or “Wishing won’t make it so.” 2. “You can’t eat your cake and have it, too.” 3. “Man is an end in himself.” 4. “Give me liberty or give me death.”

If you held these concepts with total consistency, as the base of your convictions, you would have a full philosophical system to guide the course of your life. But to hold them with total consistency—to understand, to define, to prove and to apply them—requires volumes of thought. Which is why philosophy cannot be discussed while standing on one foot—nor while standing on two feet on both sides of every fence. This last is the predominant philosophical position today, particularly in the field of politics.

My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that:

Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.
Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.
Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

Copyright © 1962 by Times-Mirror Co.
Introducing Objectivism - Ayn Rand Institute
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#204867 - 12/19/11 10:43 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
David Clark Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 16
Well, she said my philosophy. It is what she believes. Skeptic, Stoic, Cynic, Epicurian, there are many different ways to live. Is there any such thing as a right or wrong way to live, as long as you don't do harm to yourself or others?

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#204877 - 12/19/11 11:43 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Quote:
The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights;


As we can see, the government doesn't act AT ALL, in a Randian system, because the government is shrunk to the size where it can be drowned in the bathtub. Therefore it is weak and ineffectual and barring that, it is bought and paid for.

So what we ACTUALLY end up with in the REALITY based Ayn Rand system is a territory run by corporate warlords and self appointed pasha kings.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#204880 - 12/20/11 12:02 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: David Clark]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11524
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: David Clark
Well, she said my philosophy. It is what she believes. Skeptic, Stoic, Cynic, Epicurian, there are many different ways to live. Is there any such thing as a right or wrong way to live, as long as you don't do harm to yourself or others?


I think that most of us have no problem with egalitarianism as a personal philosophy. And obviously you are also free to let your philosophy guide your political/voting decisions. And obviously this extends to telling people what you believe and why... in case they might also be interested.

What bothers me, and perhaps others, is when enthusiasm for this philosophy becomes near cult like in it's single mindedness... where there are clear indications made that this is really the only logically consistent and appropriate mode of living and governance. That if I decline to accept this philosophy, I have essentially opposed the foundational values of this country and have allied myself with those contemptible statists.
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"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#204934 - 12/20/11 11:25 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
David Clark Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 16
A philosopher does not follow a philosophy but questions all things. I once read the bible from cover to cover because I thought there might be something worthwhile in it. Now there was a total waste of my time.

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#204944 - 12/20/11 12:00 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7614
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Originally Posted By: David Clark
Well, she said my philosophy. It is what she believes. Skeptic, Stoic, Cynic, Epicurian, there are many different ways to live. Is there any such thing as a right or wrong way to live, as long as you don't do harm to yourself or others?


I think that most of us have no problem with egalitarianism as a personal philosophy. And obviously you are also free to let your philosophy guide your political/voting decisions. And obviously this extends to telling people what you believe and why... in case they might also be interested.

What bothers me, and perhaps others, is when enthusiasm for this philosophy becomes near cult like in it's single mindedness... where there are clear indications made that this is really the only logically consistent and appropriate mode of living and governance. That if I decline to accept this philosophy, I have essentially opposed the foundational values of this country and have allied myself with those contemptible statists.
i think that sums it up well. furthermore, i have a real problem with people like paul ryan and company begin to enforce randian ideals on the people, turning philosophical musings - faulty ones at that - into policy that clearly will only benefit a small percentage of people. echoes of ayn rand ...
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#204945 - 12/20/11 12:04 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: David Clark]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Quote:
The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".


Originally Posted By: wikipedia
Wisdom is a deep understanding and realization of people, things, events or situations, resulting in the ability to apply perceptions, judgements and actions in keeping with this understanding. It often requires control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that universal principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions. Wisdom is also the comprehension of what is true or right coupled with optimum judgment as to action.


It is my conjecture that wisdom is a thing that shrinks as it grows. The more complex an idea or philosophy is, the less likely it is to embody wisdom. The Void is All.

Whizdumb, on the other hand, is nothing more than pissing into the wind. Hmm
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#204949 - 12/20/11 12:12 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: David Clark]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: David Clark
A philosopher does not follow a philosophy but questions all things. I once read the bible from cover to cover because I thought there might be something worthwhile in it. Now there was a total waste of my time.

You should have read the King James version. The beauty of the language in that document is proof of the philosophy "Art for Art's sake." But if your looking for Illuminaiton, read Whtiman's "Song of Myself." Now that's a philosophy.
_________________________
“If you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinskey

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#204953 - 12/20/11 12:19 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ozymanithrax]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Aye.
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#204971 - 12/20/11 12:56 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
I think, fundamentally, David, that is where "philosophers" (i.e., those who call themselves such) go off the rails. It is one thing to explain a system of how things work or should work, it is another thing to be the judge of how well someone else is adhering to those "standards."

I find many faults with the methodology of Rand's thought process/system of thought, though. Of course, Descartes went off the rails too when he tried to prove the existence of god. Kind of undercut the fundamental "I think, therefore, I am." Ultimately, I don't think Rand really contributed anything of significance to the field of philosophy. Objectivism is initially a rehash of previous thoughts, then an irrational application to other areas of endeavor (politics and economics).
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#205011 - 12/20/11 03:47 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: NW Ponderer]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
NW, Rand filled in my own lack of substance when it came to my own self as well as my choice of friends and lovers. I was at a total loss of where I fit into society. When I found my book club at Hughes Aircraft I was the only member without a college degree but because I out read the others in the volume of books, they accepted me. My books were part of the classic library of the others and I became their equal. I often lead the discussions when it came to music and art.

The end of the Korean War broke us all up and during that time I married one of the members. Many years later we reorganized and returned to our discussions only this time focused on Ayn Rand. Ray and I had met her and attended several of her lectures. We all had stories about how we gained from our Objectivist lessons. None of us leaned into any religion and managed to keep our free thinking even in our politics. It influenced how we raised our children and even in our chosen charities. Of the original group I was still the only Republican and even got Ray registered to vote as a Republican.

I stayed involved even after Rand's death. My son was not a reader and passed on any discussion of Rand. My older girl was a Buddhist and rejected Rand's philosophy but the younger girl understood it's appeal to me. She had no lack of self as her home life was very different from mine. She is my model for an ideal woman. My husband could not keep up with the rest of us and took off with his secretary. He was all words and no substance and we ended it without much fanfare. In fact it was years before he finally left the family.

I learned that many people have developed a rabid hatred for Rand as is seen here. I know better than to try to sell Objectivism here as it takes a different mindset that RR simply does not have. I think it takes a background in reading a group of philosophers and books about them. No one who has an occult superstition in their back ground should ever approach Rand. In my many meetings with other Rand supporters, I've found that most of them are a much younger group of well-educated, well-read kids still in their Universities. If Rand is not on their list of subjects, she certainly is found within their realms of interest.

I am now involved in many other subjects that involve ancient history and I am corresponding with a whole new group of writers who are interested in describing their work. Without the television, I have lots of time to read and question many others of the same mindset. R.R. is starting to bore the hell out of me and it is time to move on.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#205026 - 12/20/11 05:06 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Sandune
...
I learned that many people have developed a rabid hatred for Rand as is seen here. ... R.R. is starting to bore the hell out of me and it is time to move on.


Rabid (Merriam Webster Definition of RABID. 1. a: extremely violent : furious b: going to extreme lengths in expressing or pursuing a feeling, interest, or opinion), it's the new boring!

Move on everybody, there's nothing to see here!
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#205043 - 12/20/11 06:32 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
Sandy, all of us have gone through periods of self-discovery, and have explored many paths to get where we are. Some of us retain that wanderlust throughout our lifetimes. I learned a great many things from a great many sources, including Ayn Rand. There are elements of her approach that merit consideration. But, I steadfastly maintain, she is not worthy of veneration. When I read dismissive paragraphs such as this:
Originally Posted By: Sandune

I learned that any people have developed a rabid hatred for Rand as is seen here. I know better than to try to sell Objectivism here as it takes a different mindset that RR simply does not have. I think it takes a background in reading a group of philosophers and books about them. No one who has an occult superstition in their back ground should ever approach Rand. In my many meetings with other Rand supporters, I've found that most of them are a much younger group of well-educated, well-read kids still in their Universities. If Rand is not on their list of subjects, she certainly is found within their realms of interest.
I wonder a number of things. First, I wonder when it was you lost interest in the honest views of others? I wonder what is was that made you so bitter. And I wonder if exposure to what I consider her toxic view of humanity might be partially to blame. I wonder why, if you think that we have closed minds and rabid mindsets, you feel they might be influenced by your words?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#205044 - 12/20/11 06:49 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Sandy,

What was the whole point of this two page epistle?
Was it this:

Quote:
R.R. is starting to bore the hell out of me and it is time to move on.


What's stopping you, why are you still here if it's boring the hell out of you?

We've heard your story about your wayward husband, I think maybe twelve times now, and about your ideals for model men and women verging on multiple dozens.

Do the Galt thing for God's sake.
I am now praying to my occult spirit that you will punish us with your absence sooner rather than later.

Clearly you're not getting anything out of our presence because you don't respond to any points any of us make, clearly you don't even READ the responses because you just trot out the same old pablums every time you post, about how we're all wealth redistributionists, how none of us attended the finer universities, how each of us is a slave and how we're just shilling for the lazy masses ("to be crushed underfoot and burned as fuel" - RAND)

Sandy, if as you claim you feel as though you've "been raped by some redheaded hoodlum from a stone quarry", then please, do the smart thing and leave the quarry.

Originally Posted By: Sandune
NW, Rand filled in my own lack of substance when it came to my own self as well as my choice of friends and lovers. I was at a total loss of where I fit into society. When I found my book club at Hughes Aircraft I was the only member without a college degree but because I out read the others in the volume of books, they accepted me. My books were part of the classic library of the others and I became their equal. I often lead the discussions when it came to music and art.

The end of the Korean War broke us all up and during that time I married one of the members. Many years later we reorganized and returned to our discussions only this time focused on Ayn Rand. Ray and I had met her and attended several of her lectures. We all had stories about how we gained from our Objectivist lessons. None of us leaned into any religion and managed to keep our free thinking even in our politics. It influenced how we raised our children and even in our chosen charities. Of the original group I was still the only Republican and even got Ray registered to vote as a Republican.

I stayed involved even after Rand's death. My son was not a reader and passed on any discussion of Rand. My older girl was a Buddhist and rejected Rand's philosophy but the younger girl understood it's appeal to me. She had no lack of self as her home life was very different from mine. She is my model for an ideal woman. My husband could not keep up with the rest of us and took off with his secretary. He was all words and no substance and we ended it without much fanfare. In fact it was years before he finally left the family.

I learned that many people have developed a rabid hatred for Rand as is seen here. I know better than to try to sell Objectivism here as it takes a different mindset that RR simply does not have. I think it takes a background in reading a group of philosophers and books about them. No one who has an occult superstition in their back ground should ever approach Rand. In my many meetings with other Rand supporters, I've found that most of them are a much younger group of well-educated, well-read kids still in their Universities. If Rand is not on their list of subjects, she certainly is found within their realms of interest.

I am now involved in many other subjects that involve ancient history and I am corresponding with a whole new group of writers who are interested in describing their work. Without the television, I have lots of time to read and question many others of the same mindset. R.R. is starting to bore the hell out of me and it is time to move on.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#205049 - 12/20/11 07:21 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
keysersoze Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 880
At least there was no rant about Christians....but, then again, I skipped the last two paragraphs.
_________________________
Only racists oppose my dictatorship.

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#205798 - 12/25/11 08:42 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune
I was at a total loss of where I fit into society.


Well Sandy, you speak for yourself.
I KNEW where I fit in society by the time I was a teen.
I was a PHOTOGRAPHER and a MUSICIAN.
That was my role, that was my goal and that was my ambition.
My place in society was quite clear to me, I was put here to visually document, tell stories and make music.

I knew that as far back as a small child when I was making fake cameras out of shoe boxes and cardboard toilet paper rolls, carrying them about and pretending to film people.

There was never a doubt in my mind for even a second as to where I fit in and what I was to do.

So maybe the clarion call of Ayn Rand truly is something designed for those little lost souls who feel an emptiness inside and who long to fill up the void.

That's why cults are so handy.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#205801 - 12/25/11 11:10 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
I always speak for myself Checkers. This morning on CSPAN they had a debate between a Democrat and a representative from the Ayn Rand Institution in front of a large Audience where the applause meter gave both sides of the debate equal enthusiasm. I was not certain what the subject of the debate but I heard my own words like individualism, collectivism and I stopped and watched the whole hour program. Rand's membership numbers are growing within the University students from coast to coast. This discussion reflected our debate here at R.R. right down to the mention of Aristotle and since I have not read anything on Rand for 50 years, it showed me I absolutely have her philosophy clear in my mind.

I often to go CSPAN when the commercials get offensive when I'm doing my morning physical work outs. The gentleman who spoke for the Rand Institution was Joron Brook and he was great.

It is the same debate that has been going on since Rand made the individual the center of her writings. Mr Brook understands that the majority of Americans want the safety net around all of us and that we do lose freedoms in the process.

It is time Americans to take control over the education of their children and never turn it over to any government agency due to the corruption. It would be the first step into assuring mature adult individuals. Mr. Brook spoke of the lure in collectivism that is found everywhere in America starting with the churches and ending with the government.

You need the government and collectivism but I do not. I make no attempt to keep you out of your safely net but you sure as hell hate what Rand stands for.

I admire your self esteem from an early age. I found mine in Darwin who convinced me that I was the master of my own ship and could develop my mind and body on my own terms. I too wanted to be a musician and a tennis player but a car accident damaged my right hand and my knees. I became a distance swimmer.

Darwin showed me there was no need to follow the rules of the occult and I made my own rules. I'm sorry you missed the debate to hear Rand's ideas from someone else. It is very difficult to speak about any Philosophy as the only voice. I am totally out numbered but that does not make me wrong.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#205807 - 12/25/11 12:11 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 558
Sandy,
Two thoughts come to mind with your observations.
The first is that it seems impossible for any individual to succeed in their individualism without a bit of collectivism. I recall wagons crossing the prairies as a collective. It's part of our DNA and I believe our abilities to cooperate is what has allowed us to succeed as a species.
Does an objectivist object to the electric power that is brought to their house if it's generated from a closed union shop generating plant?
Then theirs the physiological evidence that were a collective organizing species. There is the human trait of empathy that is being studied to try and understand how it works and what key role it played in our evolution.
I'm not ridiculing Rand but I will say that the idea of it being 'objective' in it philosophy seems ironic in the face of historical and biological evidence. It seems like more a matter of a choice of faith.
I would be very interested in your take of how Rand's objectivism squares with history as a species or our physiology.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/25/11 12:12 PM)

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#205810 - 12/25/11 01:05 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: chunkstyle]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
There is absolutely nothing wrong with collectivism unless it is by force. I've always been a negotiator for neighborhood activities and rights as a collective. For example trying to force people to be covered with insurance health policies when we can do it as individuals. The government would remove our choice by banning alternative health plans.

Many Americans have little respect for government programs that have been formed without the public knowledge. The Bush Administration gathered in secret meeting with companies like Enron and caused a huge brown out in California. I remember when Cheney held meetings over a 2 year period with Ken Lay prior to the mess he made in California. "The Smartest Boys in the Room" tells the whole story of this. People were uninformed of this secret mess. When Bush passed a federal law "Leaving No Child Behind" Rand would have spun out of her grave.

I have no problem understanding this situation because I have read all the books. essays and attended lectures by Rand. I can enter any Secular Humanist forum and be completely understood. The LP understands even when Rand claims no interest in religion. Lew Rockwell is a devout Christian and leaves the individual freedoms at the door when God is mentioned. We all share the mind set that we know better than others how we wish to live our lives.

Rand was active in many charities but that had nothing to do with collectivism. Her reputation of being selfish comes from her putting her own agenda first. I understood so deeply that my kids and I often discussed what made us joyful and it was to be part of actions involving others being themselves. The churches have done a job on Rand and I had hoped this forum might understand how important the self is to the individual. But R.R. takes it to the extreme and putting oneself ahead must mean leaving others out. There's nothing I can do to convince anyone here of this most unique way of looking at life.

I can only use the trial of the architect who set fire to his own development rather than have it pass as someone else's work. Read "The Fountainhead." Atlas Shrugged is far more complicated but one reading was enough for the millions of us who understood Objectivism. I really believe that kids raised on Sesame Street will never underatand Rand. Somehow the latest generation is all over her words. They also tend to lean into Secular Humanism to replace the terrorism handed out in Christian Churches. They will vote for Paul over Obama. A little time watching Washington Journal on CSPAN will explain this new free thinking voter base. They are also building Charter schools for their kids and using better quality of food for their kids. It's this Whole World attitude that should have been done 50 years ago. Call us selfish if that suits you.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#205837 - 12/25/11 07:45 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Simply put Rand does believe in collectivism, only it's an inverse collective and it is by force, a forced and inverted form of Marxism for the wealthy.

Only the wealthy are given the privilege of being "individuals" in a Randian universe. The rest are, in her own words, mud to be crushed underfoot and fuel to be burned.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#205850 - 12/25/11 11:55 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 558
So I guess the question is do objectivist believe the strong should be able to roll over the weak?

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#205856 - 12/26/11 01:04 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Irked Offline
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Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3319
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
Of course. There are always winners and losers. One can hardly expect the winners to just hand over to the losers the rewards of victory.
_________________________
How eager they are to be slaves - Tiberus Caesar

Coulda tripped out easy, but I've changed my ways - Donovan

I consider myself to be a laid back type and quite tolerant on most issues - AB Breivik

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#205865 - 12/26/11 08:20 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
Not everyone here is so opposed to the philosophy of Rand. I had several emails on this subject. You assume that Ayn Rand is evil through and through. I should not be the one to argue with you as you are acting like 2 year old stamping your feet. You can verbally knock my around all you want but to take on a woman who has been dead since the early 80s is amazing. Who would have thought anyone would even remember her after all these years. CSPAN has a regular assignment to bring her people on the programs. Many of the political writers quote her far more often than quote anything you have ever said. Christians use her as a bad example of independents and the rest of us consider her very intelligent. No, we do not worship her as worship is not in our vocabulary. There is more to associations than worship versus hatred. When you grow up you will understand it.

I will always stand up for anyone who shows an interest in her writings. Assigning labels is your trick, not hers. Her subjects are people who develop projects, not money. I would bet that in 20 years you will read "The Fountainhead" and understand what she was writing about. You are too involved in trying to prove your superiority over others here. I've never met a perfect man that I could tolerate for more than 2 minutes; but then I don't have to.

Among Rand supporters, it is a litmus test of intelligence when we meet up. I was showing a kid how to hold his breath under water when he pulled my necklace and broke the chain. I ordered a new one for Christmas so I can go back to wearing my Ayn Rand charm which is a gold symbol of her philosophy. It is a magnet for Randians. Run away Checkers!!!
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#205866 - 12/26/11 09:07 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
keysersoze Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 880
http://pluralism.org/profiles/view/74867

A place I enjoy and they give me sugar cookies and green tea.

I will give credit to the Rand supporters in that they were not overt attempts at proselytization back in the early 70s when they proliferated the Boston area. Of course the whole Boston academic community and those of the fringe were involved in a virtual smorgasbord of various philosophies, religions and cults - well, maybe the philosophies and religions were the cults. Of course I found speaking to one and then another I got two different opinions. Maybe they were just being fluid?
_________________________
Only racists oppose my dictatorship.

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#205870 - 12/26/11 10:26 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Irked]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 558
Originally Posted By: Irked
Of course. There are always winners and losers. One can hardly expect the winners to just hand over to the losers the rewards of victory.


I suspect that this article would support your insight Irked. money vs. empathy

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#205873 - 12/26/11 11:17 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: keysersoze]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
Keyser, are you saying that you were not seduced by Rand? Glad to hear it.

Coming from Communistic Russia, she found her wings in America. She worked for DeMille and became his biblical source for his movies. She put together some essays that would help many expand their minds on many subjects. All American students studied Greek Philosophers and she did a series of debates between Plato and Aristotle that helped clear up both opinions. I was long out of school by then but enjoyed her ability to put both men in some sort of order where we could understand them. Most of us were either Republicans or Democrats and never put those two guys in political associations.

She laid out patterns of thinking as a starting point for expansion. Many who had never bothered to search for patterns could not follow her very well. The majority of Americans live in a world of television and would freak out when a star was shot during a show. These are the people who read TV Guide and the tabloids. My first year in the book business, I sold more Barbara Cartland (Romancez) than Ayn Rand until I did some short articles about her. Every time "The Fountainhead" was on TV I would do a short review of the book in our newspaper and sure enough, after the film ran, I would sell copies of the book.

This movement to hate Rand is hilarious and sounds as if it comes out of Fox News. She was not hatched out of an American mold but she became a best seller based on her style. She remained unique in many ways.

I relate my trying to discuss Rand here with trying to talk about UFOs at a bible camp.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#205874 - 12/26/11 11:22 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: chunkstyle]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
Rolling over who and what with? There is no Rand Army!
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#205876 - 12/26/11 11:41 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Sandune

I relate my trying to discuss Rand here with trying to talk about UFOs at a bible camp.


The metaphor that comes to my mind is one of Limbaugh at a Mensa gathering. gobsmacked
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#205877 - 12/26/11 11:47 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 558
Sandy,

For some one who feels so compelled to defend Rand and has an intimate knowledge of her as a person and her works, it seems a shame that you will not try and explain any misunderstandings or misconceptions about her or the philosophy of Objectivism.

A missed opportunity for the RR. I've read some of her stuff and listened to her interviewed. Her words and comments didn't square with other scientific, social studies and history, in my limited understanding of the subjects.

It would have been nice to have a conversation with you about Rand and her work but any attempt goes unanswered or is met with a response with something akin to 'pearls before swine'. That only seems to reenforce my conception of Objectivism being an artificial philosophical contrivance to explain one's personal attitudes while denying our basic human natures. I would have been willing to listen to your take on it though but it seems that opportunity won't happen.

Anywho, I still enjoy your posts.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/26/11 11:48 AM)

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#205879 - 12/26/11 12:21 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
keysersoze Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 880
Originally Posted By: Sandune
Keyser, are you saying that you were not seduced by Rand? Glad to hear it.


I do pay cursory attention to the rumblings of philosophers, religious zealots and assorted political types of all stripe. Anyone who can find solace with any of the above I wish them well as long as they don't go Jehovah on me. In the meantime I'll stick with Benny Hinn.
_________________________
Only racists oppose my dictatorship.

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#205885 - 12/26/11 02:40 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
I get the impression, Sandy, that you have an idealized view of Rand that brooks no criticism. Anyone who honestly disagrees with her views is "uniformed" "prejudiced" "stupid" or some other veiled pejorative. Can you elucidate your view of her views? Or are you more content with just denigrating anyone who disagrees?

Rand had both some serious personal faults, and was really not all that Objectivist in her behavior at all. She espoused a viewpoint, but upon critical analysis, it falls apart. She would brook no critical analysis, and that was one of the reasons she was not taken so seriously in her lifetime. Like Libertarianism, Marxism, and various other isms, Objectivism provides, at best, a generalized framework, but has very little practical application in the real world, because people don't really operate like that. Instead, they use the parts that placate themselves, believing that those views are "justified" - sanctified - by a label, without ever critically analyzing the underlying immorality/amorality of their approach.

I have noted before that I read a good deal of Rand, but that I don't agree with her. Am I uninformed? Ignorant? An anti-Randian zealot? Stupid? None of the above. I had the opportunity to explore her views thoroughly, and I found them wanting. Moreover, I have found that most of the people I discuss Rand's "philosophy" with are less informed about what it really is than I am. They skim off the cliff's notes version, and use it to justify all kinds of whacky views - the same as Marxists, Libertarians and most other zealots.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#205955 - 12/27/11 11:20 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
I respect your words and opinions and you do not use words to describe Rand as "evil" or seductive or even dangerous. She opened the minds and imaginations of millions of Americans. She made us all aware of a search for idealism within ourselves and our friends and family members.

The real world did not interest her but real people did. She did not teach in schools or write text books on behavior as most other writers have done. She came from forced Communism and warned of the words of Orwell. Back in the late 50's her words were everywhere I went. My work and social life were among the professors from UCLA, Caltech and even MIT. She caught their attention as few other writers did. These men had taken 20 years of pure education to get where they landed in the world of science. Suddenly Rand made them feel satisfied with their years of idealistic focus. When faced with scientific problems and even medical mysteries, it gave them a focus to continue their work. One of our group was the first to be laid off after the end of the war and he headed back to college with a dream to focus on "human engineering" which was to study how the brain mingles with the genes to solve personal problems and he became a TV guest on many talk shows and sold many books on his research.

We had a mechanical designer who quit his work and returned to art school and became a illustrator for Disney. Rand triggered the inspirations. She also put me in my place as feeling better as a team player rather than a leader. I was inspired to look after the minds and imaginations of my kids to keep them open to all inspirations.

I don't care about Rand's personal faults. I can testify that millions of her readers gained from her words. I remember my first reading of Darwin that set my brain afire with a desire to learn more about the development of the human species. I remember my first opera where I headed for the library searching for information on the composers and the people who promoted more opera across America. I remember my first reading of "The Fountainhead" puzzled about where any human had the courage to act as the hero did. I never did understand the Heroine but I was young and had found any form of violence horrendous and the rape scene was a shock.

It might be my own brain that reacts to the kind of books I devour and the kind of music I take in as an energy source. I stopped discussing Rand years ago but steadily kept in touch with Dr. Piekoff who still runs her organization.

I will always defend her name when she is used as a model of some perverted thought or action. If I have offended you, I apologize.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#205966 - 12/27/11 03:16 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
So I guess the question is do objectivist believe the strong should be able to roll over the weak?


---If you've studied her teachings then you know that, not only can they, it's their duty to their fellow objectivists, and it's justified because the weak are moochers and freeloaders.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#205967 - 12/27/11 03:22 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I get the impression, Sandy, that you have an idealized view of Rand that brooks no criticism. Anyone who honestly disagrees with her views is "uniformed" "prejudiced" "stupid" or some other veiled pejorative.


---Watch, listen or read some of Ayn Rand herself and you will not have to wait very long to see hear or read an account of her doing just that. In fact it's one of the things Rand was known for. When you read a Sandy post where she's ranging far and wide in castigating the lot of us, she's actually DOING a watered down version of Rand herself. She's "doing the Rand" thing.

Rand DID NOT brook criticism or even the slightest challenge.
It was a no-no.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#205968 - 12/27/11 03:29 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune


The real world did not interest her but real people did.


Ahh well, only problem with that is that annoying bunch of real people who insist on living IN the real world.

Too bad Rand and her current crop of political acolytes are hell bent on remaking the real world into a fantasy template in which they can act out all those fantasies in her books.

The real world beckons, with real work, to be continued.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#205990 - 12/27/11 05:39 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
There is no real world but a world made up of millions of humans with millions of opinions. I tend to click culturally and socially with people who respect Rand's points of view. I find little of interest in your narrow view of the world and the people. There is room for all of us. We live in different places and run with different people. I want people to excel in individual attributes and you want everyone to be the same with the same income. Americans are becoming socialists because they have never been introduced to what they can do as individuals.

Sit back and be yourself and take what you believe is yours and leave the rest of us to our points of view. The Capitalists have long left Reader Rant when it became a losing game. Christians took over and now it is the turn of the Socialists. These are all points of view without a firm base of what is with the individual. Collectivism shows up as a temporary action group when individuals leave the scene. I could point you in the direction of pure individual people who will never back down to the masses. It all rests on who our heroes are.

Doug has kept Reader Rant open to all points of view and that seems to piss you off. In your world Checkers, the masses will always win and in mine, it is the individual. In that way, we live in a different world. You can be seduced, and I cannot.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#205995 - 12/27/11 06:27 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 558
Ummm..

Just an observation but I don't see where Checkers is advocating socialism. How do you deduce that Sandy?

Also, and again, do Objectivists believe it is the right of the powerfull to roll over the weak?

An example would be for a powerful interest that would lobby to have rules stripped away so that it will make it legal to degrade the air we breath? The powerfull will realize further gains by decreasing the cost to do business while there are very real world consequences for those directly affected and don't have the wherewithal to counter that power.

In this hypothetical would this be O.K. with Objectivism?

How does Objectivism resolve competing self interests Sandy?


Edited by chunkstyle (12/27/11 06:27 PM)

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#206007 - 12/27/11 08:15 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune
There is no real world but a world made up of millions of humans with millions of opinions.


Excuse me??

Maybe for you there ain't!
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206012 - 12/27/11 09:54 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Ummm..

Just an observation but I don't see where Checkers is advocating socialism. How do you deduce that Sandy?



She doesn't, it's called a
KNEE JERK REFLEX

Tickle a Rand worshipper and they yell "SOCIALIST" or "WEALTH REDISTRIBUTIONIST".
It's like this little guy.




Quote:

Also, and again, do Objectivists believe it is the right of the powerfull to roll over the weak?


Yes, and so do most of today's libertarians.

Quote:

An example would be for a powerful interest that would lobby to have rules stripped away so that it will make it legal to degrade the air we breath?


I guarantee you people will be forced to pay for breathable air in ten years if the right wing manages to stay in power.

_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206038 - 12/28/11 09:02 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
In my world, anyone who is firmly opposed to Capitalism can be called a Socialist. Anti-Corporations drives many Americans who could not find employment within their Companies and have to blame something other than themselves. It is driving the Occupy groups who have a very valid point but are aiming at the wrong target.

If Checkers continues to hate Corporations and blames Lobbyists for his problems, then he should not shun the obvious label. This is not a policy of Rand or even the LP but my own evaluations of what is wrong with the American voters.

You put in the House and Senate and the White House and you should own up to your mistakes. Stop blaming a woman who has been dead since the 80's This week I rejoined the LP/Republican group again and was stunned to see their head honcho standards of good Americans. OH yes, Goldwater and Rand were right there. I was in the audience when Rand endorsed Goldwater and was thrilled.

But I am a Capitalist but my fight is with the House and Senate. I have always been open and honest and never hid my political preferences. I've lost more elections than most but I still stand firmly associated with free enterprise and this preceded my meeting Ayn Rand.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206049 - 12/28/11 12:29 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune
In my world, anyone who is firmly opposed to Capitalism can be called a Socialist.


And the deaf sandbagging continues!
I never said I was firmly opposed to capitalism. I never said I disliked capitalism. I never even said anything remotely like that in all my years as a Ranter.

What I HAVE SAID repeatedly, to your alligator sized ears
(please note that alligator ears are miniscule in relation to their mouths) is that the capitalist system is the best model there is but it is in need of common sense regulations to protect people. The problem with today's conservatives and libertarians is that they view ANY regulation as an attack.
You cannot mention the word without triggering the knee jerk reflex "socialist" tag.

Quote:

Anti-Corporations drives many Americans who could not find employment within their Companies and have to blame something other than themselves. It is driving the Occupy groups who have a very valid point but are aiming at the wrong target.



Corporations aren't people, and since they do not have a conscience the best we humans can do is make regulations which FUNCTION AS the closest substitute for a conscience.

Aside from that I have no beef with corporations.

Quote:
If Checkers continues to hate Corporations and blames Lobbyists for his problems, then he should not shun the obvious label.


Because random labels do so much for communications?
Quote:

This is not a policy of Rand or even the LP but my own evaluations of what is wrong with the American voters.


Since you seem to have such a serious listening problem where American voters are concerned, perhaps you should refrain from making evaluations. An evaluation means that you've done analysis. I see no analysis. I see knee jerk reactionary labeling.

Quote:
You put in the House and Senate and the White House and you should own up to your mistakes.


I did?? I didn't vote Tea Party!

Quote:
Stop blaming a woman who has been dead since the 80's


Not blaming her. I'm holding her responsible for the damage her philosophy is doing to the middle class through the auspices of her politically connected fans who are in office and using her books as a platform for their policies. But mostly I am holding THEM responsible for using HER as a crutch and, in the process, I am explaining to OTHERS what they are doing and from whom they take their marching orders. They take their orders from "a woman who has been dead since the 80's".

You make it sound like her books and teachings left the Earth along with her. They didn't, they live on.

Quote:

This week I rejoined the LP/Republican group again and was stunned to see their head honcho standards of good Americans. OH yes, Goldwater and Rand were right there. I was in the audience when Rand endorsed Goldwater and was thrilled.


Even Barry Goldwater would never have dreamed of cutting social services to NOTHING, to ZERO. He just objected to waste and corruption.

Quote:
But I am a Capitalist but my fight is with the House and Senate. I have always been open and honest and never hid my political preferences. I've lost more elections than most but I still stand firmly associated with free enterprise and this preceded my meeting Ayn Rand.


Describe your ideal vision of capitalism please.
I wish to hold your model up against mine so we can all see where the disagreement lies.

Of course, in order for that to happen you have to stop reflexively labeling me a socialist.

Not holding my breath. I fully expect to hear myself being branded a socialist for the next twenty Sandune posts.

You can't help yourself. It's like what my dog does when she's confused. She starts randomly scratching herself. It's her "go to" reflex when she doesn't understand something.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206054 - 12/28/11 12:44 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
How, pray tell, are the occupiers aiming at the wrong target? Are Goldman Sachs, Bear Sterns, and other corporate leeches innocents? Are not policies that benefit the rich and disadvantage anyone else inappropriate? Are corporatism and capitalism the same thing? Are lobbyists innocents ground up in the system? Aren'!t they the very distorters that Rand railed against? There are a great many holes in this analysis, perhaps the most glaring, "In my world, anyone who is firmly against capitalism is a socialist." That kind of black and white/binary thinking is exactly what is wrong both with current policymaking and with the mindset of many objectivist thinkers. It is a lack of nuance and acknowledgment of how the real world operates. "Labels" my dear are obvious only to you, and are why you cannot approach this topic objectively.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#206058 - 12/28/11 12:55 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
It would be so easy to trick you into coming after me if I set up the scene for free enterprise capitalism. I won't do it. I have company coming and more on Friday. You are angry at everything which indicates you have nothing positive anywhere in your life.

I'm into Don Giovanni and there was a man who knew what he wanted. I saw Pinza do this years ago and that is a hard character to forget. Stop whining and stop blaming Rand for your problems. Go write a book yourself on all the things she had wrong. She sells many books and is second to the bible. Many socialist scholars have tried to knock her off the best sellers lists but maybe you can do it. At least you will stop whining about Rand. Do you have the same fears surrounding Rothbard?

I learned years ago that there is no need for criticism unles you can give out better than you criticize. I think that came from a Rand essay.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206061 - 12/28/11 01:20 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: NW Ponderer]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
Every corporation on your list followed the laws in all their actions. Who wrote those laws? Follow the bills that have been passed in the House and Senate in the last 20 years. From Clinton right down to Bush43 and Obama's first 3 years. I became aware of Fannie Mae amd Freddie Mac when I sold my home in Lake Havasu Arizona. I had held a paper on my commercial building and lost it when it was determined that my buyer owed more to the Federal Government than to me. My incomed was lowered and I sold my home at the market value and my ant man wanted to buy it. I had no mortgage and this time I would not carry a paper. He was covered by the federally approved Mae and Mac and knowing he had no credit rating I was astounded at his loan. I knew this would not last long and when the mortage world fell apart I was not surprized. I took a bath on the sale of my Sun City home near Phoenix again because I had no mortgage to transfer to someone else. The Banks, mortage firms all followed the laws. All laws approved by the House, Senate and the White House. The FEC has never questioned the actions of any Wall Street firm because they followed the phucking laws! This is not my government who allows this double dealing but it is my investments who have taken a terrible hit.

I'm in a mobile home now and again no mortgage and no need to ever have to move again. My Republican party has destroyed not only my estate but my financial security that I built without help from anyone. The government crapped all over Capitalism making any investments too risky for anyone. The lack of control over the Wall Street people came directly from several occupants of the White House and none of them are worthy of being reelected. The whole system was to protect the investments of the people in the government and the voters only had pay the cost of what we lost.

Closing down wall street sound good unless ones entire estate is on the line. They took mine away with their double dealing with the house and senate. I was the Capitalist around here until the damn government did a job om the people.

Tell me what changes you NW would make in our government to suit your agenda? Government control over Wall Street? Can you do it without demonstration what Socialism is?
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206077 - 12/28/11 03:45 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
Sandy, I appreciate your disappointment with how things turned out, but I think it is you that is firing at the wrong target. First, these corporations did not necessarily "follow the law" - although they have managed to obscure its application sufficiently to avoid prosecution so far. They (or at least their management) did, however, follow the objectivist approach of doing what was in their personal interests. Under Rand's philosophy, that behavior is ethical. As a direct victim of that modality of thinking, I am surprised that you can still embrace it. I think the greatest damage that Rand left in her wake was a form of fatalism disguised as objectivism - you are still willing to accept your fate, believing that it was not "the market" or "greed" that created this disaster, but goverment interference. That, I think, is where we have our fundamental disagreement. It was a lack of adequate oversight, not goverment interference, that created the conditions from which you personally suffered. If the government had been more involved, some of the worst excesses (e.g. Countrywide, and other unregulated loan originators; and Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, AIG, and other derivative marketers) would have been prohibited from engaging in the worst abuses. Yet you blame the government?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#206085 - 12/28/11 05:30 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: NW Ponderer]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
I blame the government for far more than the meltdown financially. I blame the government for lying to the American people about why we were attacked on 9/11. I read a book by a CIA agent who was in Afghanistan for years and notified the White House of the burning hatred for Americans who left their guns and war stuff all over their holy ground after the Kuwait war was over. He had to use the name "Anonymous" until the book was actually released. I brought his words here when Reader Rant first began to talk about 9/11. Since that time a dozen other war correspondents have also backed this information and even the 9/11 Commission blacked out much of the notifications received by Bush & Co., before the attack. But we are not allowed to discuss this here at Reader Rant. From Bush all the way down to his House and Senate knew damn well Wall Street was acting according the same corruption that the White House enjoyed.

I went on the attack to dump every house and senate member from that moment on. Throw the Bastards out was even on my Honda car.

The voters refuse to take action so therefore we will never get above the water level of our government. I'm reading Bill Bennett's book that touches on all the problems found in D.C. but he blames it on the lack of Christian virtues in our government. In my opinion our government is up to its ass in Christian virtues which of course is followed by massive begging for forgiveness. What is missing is a simple study in right over wrong.

I get none of the philosophy that you bring as an Objectivist. Are you reading Rothbard? or any one who understands today's mess in D.C. My agenda is far easier to understand and it is based on right over wrong without all the fancy vocabulary. No honest person can ever justify the crap that came from Bush 43 and his neocons.

Contrary to the Religious Right, Americans are all citizens whether black, gay, or in need of abortions. We are not all Christians and most of us know right from wrong even when taught by Christian teachers.

I do not believe there is any candidate including the President who is good enough to be in our White House and if I had my druthers every House and Senate member would be thrown out in the street without a dime for a pension. The latest Libertarian objective has virtually nothing to do with Rand. A bunch of silly academics rewrote her philosophy to suit their half-assed interpretation.

Very few here at Reader Rant has an agenda to throw out but everyone has a lot criticism for anyone who does. Instead of taking my agenda (incorrectly) apart; add one of your own. I do not understand why anyone would want the crap in power at this time to get reelected or rearranged.

We went through this same neverending whine in 2008. I keep hoping some new members would appear with some input and correction from our corruption. But apparently the Internet is not the place to locate free thinkers.

I'm in no mind set to seduce any of you away from Rand. I don't care enough to even try.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206166 - 12/29/11 10:07 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
I want to inject a book review here. I am about half way through Bill Bennett's book "The Book of Man." He puts men and boys in the position of war, marriage, work and describes much of what has gone wrong with men and boys in today's world. He uses the word "ideal" and how far off the mark we are.

He mentions more than once the lack of God and points to this as a cure.

What got my attention was how much he reminds me of Rand with the exception that her world of men, women, boys and girls could be improved by a focus on the individual self as being included in the growth of war, marriage, work and child rearing.

Bennett looks outwardly to a mystic occult figure and Rand looks inwardly to the training of the individual expanded brain. The two philosophies will never blend in America as it has in other European nations. America is wrapped up in the occult by 8 to 1 and until the Americans look at themselves as the masters of their lives, we will continue to lose numbers and continue to bow to the occult for our culture.

At this point of time, we still have the choice on how much government we want in our personal lives. The numbers are growing for more involvement putting our hands in the till and our brains based on the occult. This was Rand's warning and is why the GOP will never accept Rand or Ron Paul in our leadership.

I have read all of Bennett's books and love his words and it is quite possible for me to remove God from his statements. He is right on about our losing our moral values but we differ on how to find them. If we take the time and trouble to train our children to know right from wrong and how to react when situations put them in a position to make their choices. There is no need for the occult as kids learn how to make the good choices in their lives when given the opportunity. Many times we would discuss a choice they would or had made on some subject and they learned from sharing support for their choices. I'm doing this myself when I wanted to make a copy of a DVD disk that is no longer available and I fear that when my disk is ruined it will be gone forever. My legal authority told me that the disk is unavailable for copying as long as the copyright is still there. She checked and it is.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206178 - 12/29/11 01:22 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune
Every corporation on your list followed the laws in all their actions. Who wrote those laws?


THE CORPORATIONS!

American Legislative Exchange Council

If you take a minute to learn about groups like ALEC you will see that they are following the Rand script TO THE LETTER!

"What is good for me is right."

Yeah sure, what IS good for them IS right as far as they're concerned and screw everyone else on the planet.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206179 - 12/29/11 01:28 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune


I have read all of Bennett's books and love his words and it is quite possible for me to remove God from his statements.


Oh my God Sandy, are you actually capable of something this astoundingly naive?

You love his words and you are capable of removing THE ENTIRE TEMPLATE UPON WHICH THEY ARE WRITTEN, but you still love his words.

That means that someone could feed you any line of CRAP and you would buy it once you run it through your cult filter.

You are functioning on the level of a Jim Jones Guyana devotee my dear. Now go drink the Kool-Aid.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206184 - 12/29/11 02:15 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
Have you read Bill Bennett? He approaches young men and boys very like Bill Cosby. The premise that I use when associating with authors is accept what they offer and I put it in my own world. You would never understand training children to use their own instincts when it comes to right versus wrong. You will always need the words of Jesus to guide you. There's nothing wrong with that. I prepare my kids for the fact that there is no God but they can be guided by the stories told by Jesus and those told by Bill Bennett and Ayn Rand. Now that I know you believe in God, it helps clarify your comments. It explains your anger and an inability to get along with others.

What would happen if a creature from another galaxy explained that his people came to earth with the story of God in the Garden of Eden and it was a lie? .If we discover life on other planets, it would disprove the whole God story. Could you cope with that? Could you then realize that there was no divinity in the words or actions of Jesus? Could you than place him higher into the category of being an ideal man?

No Checkers there is no reasoning with you now that I know you believe in the occult notion of a God. It has made you unable to have a rational and reasonable discussion about the various cultures found in our American writers.

Which God is it that you follow?
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206210 - 12/29/11 07:13 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11738
My friends, I remind you to follow th guidelines, which require you to be respectful. You are free to disagree, and disagree vehemently, but you must be respectful in your language.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#206266 - 12/30/11 01:18 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune

Which God is it that you follow?


I believe in Albert Einstein's version of God.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

In other words, I do not believe that there is some bearded "sky daddy" who micromanages our everyday existence. To me, God is more like an energy source, a unified field theory.

As for Christ, there is ample evidence that an enlightened prophet walked the Earth named Jesus of Nazareth and that he preached a revolutionary message of love and compassion, revolutionary because he lived in a compassionless era, much like the one being forged by today's greedy self serving cockroaches.

You could not have been more off the mark Sandy, if you had tried. My father was a world renowned nuclear physicist and mathematician. Your oh-so-quick knee jerk attempt at slamming the occult label across my forehead has failed, and miserably so.

And I'd bet fifty bucks you're about to trot out the "socialist" tag yet one more time because you think it's getting you such great mileage.

(YAWN)
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206275 - 12/30/11 09:43 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
Are you Otto's son?
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206283 - 12/30/11 12:32 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Sandune
Are you Otto's son?


My knee-jerk response would be, "Otto? No, Mick."

(special for Churlpat)
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#206286 - 12/30/11 01:12 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: logtroll]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Bow
_________________________
Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#206287 - 12/30/11 01:30 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
This was a reply to Checkers. If he is in fact from the loins of Otto, then my husband knew him. Logroll, I spend half my time debating with others and the other half trying to make up with something in common. I may have met the only person who would deny me this action. He is one angry dude. But our being in a different generation, I would do better trying to communicate with a Martian. I'm a Cosmos junkie and I will die trying to find that tall, dark, handsome, old Martian.

Had a lovely luncheon with my kids and their spouses yesterday at the local deli. We are still noisy has hell but many enjoyed the noise. My son has done a number of History channel shows and several recognized him. He is as jovial as Santa Claus and kept us all in stitches. He drives a Porsche station wagon. I thought he was kidding; apparently not. I should return to civilization once in while. I still drive my 98 Mazda that has only 32K miles and I wouldn't sell it for a million dollars.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206288 - 12/30/11 01:50 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune
Are you Otto's son?


No.

My father and his team invented what we now call "nuclear hardening". He also invented and patented a device known as a "radio frequency permeameter" without which all types of modern radio/data communications would be impossible above 30 Mhz.

He also played an integral role in the development of thermal X-Ray lasers. The IEEE named a unit of measurement for thermal X-Ray laser energy after him.

He also helped to found and develop the field of "pulsed power". The IEEE hands out an award every two years, the Peter H. Haas award, to physicists who make important advancements in the study of pulsed power.

He also played an important role in the field of nuclear weapons effects and his work was implemented during the era of the first US-Soviet Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.

He was in attendance at the first two S.A.L.T. Talks between the US and USSR.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206289 - 12/30/11 01:52 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
The Loins of Otto...

I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere. sick
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206291 - 12/30/11 02:06 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Sandune]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Sandune
Have you read Bill Bennett? He approaches young men and boys very like Bill Cosby. The premise that I use when associating with authors is accept what they offer and I put it in my own world.


I guess that Mr. Bennett would be rather surprised to see someone extracting that which forms the very core of his morality and adapting what's left to form an entirely new ideology.

I guess it's possible to remove a bird and its egg from a nest, take the sticks and twigs, put them in a pan with butter and cheese and call the result an omelette, in that there might still be a few molecules of both egg and bird left in the nesting material.

Maybe that's how Coach Sandusky approached the concept of "showering"?

I'm sure that I do not want to know much about how Coach Bennett "approached young men and boys" in any case.

I'm also quite certain that he was as adept at twisting the teachings of Jesus to suit his own agenda, so maybe he would not be surprised at Sandy's achievement. He might even be a bit jealous.

"Sandy's New and Improved Teachings of Jesus"

(NOW WITH ALL GOD REMOVED!)

Nevertheless it's noteworthy that Christ's message of love and compassion DOES indeed sometimes resonate with atheists.

For some reason it fails to resonate with Rand devotees however.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206292 - 12/30/11 02:10 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
The Loins of Otto...

I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere. sick


I heard he really got around, so much that the Otto-mobile was named for him. he was also a charter member of the Loinly Hearts Club. That's all I know about him, maybe Sandy knows more.

(ps, I don't think you are one angry dude Hmm)
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#206294 - 12/30/11 02:15 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
I'm not.

I will admit to being thoroughly disgusted with Ayn Rand however, and to being disgusted with the veneration her work is receiving today by hordes of wealthy plutocrats searching for something to validate their craven lust for even more power.

As if a blockbuster Michael Douglas movie wasn't enough...

I still maintain that rich folks do not need a handbook on how to be selfish, greedy jerks.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#206295 - 12/30/11 02:18 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
...
I guess it's possible to remove a bird and its egg from a nest, take the sticks and twigs, put them in a pan with butter and cheese and call the result an omelette, in that there might still be a few molecules of both egg and bird left in the nesting material.

There is birds nest soup, but those nests are made out of swallow spit (how clever is that?), or some such grossity.

Originally Posted By: Checkerboard Strangler
...
Nevertheless it's noteworthy that Christ's message of love and compassion DOES indeed sometimes resonate with atheists.

For some reason it fails to resonate with Rand devotees however.

Now that nail was squarely struck! Bow
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#206376 - 12/31/11 10:48 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
The more you write about Rand the lower the accumulated IQ becomes. I know you think youre being cute but cute in a small kitten.
_________________________
AKA Sandy Price

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#206380 - 12/31/11 12:23 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Irked Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3319
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
Rand is a giant among pygmies. Of course, when reading her one needs to ignore her atheism, which is mostly used for affect and was undoubtably repudiated when she was on the threshold of meeting her maker. Her strong and consistent arguments for the Right, nay, Duty of the exceptional Individual to sweep aside the Second-Handers and Collectivists and to grab, use or destroy whatever he may need in his journey to Individual fulfillment are Eternal Truths.

One can especially applaud her depiction of the subservient, malleable, worshiping woman whose existence is not but to satisfy the Hero of Individualism as particularly satisfying to all followers of the Almighty.


Edited by Irked (12/31/11 01:53 PM)
Edit Reason: Complete sentence.
_________________________
How eager they are to be slaves - Tiberus Caesar

Coulda tripped out easy, but I've changed my ways - Donovan

I consider myself to be a laid back type and quite tolerant on most issues - AB Breivik

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#206404 - 12/31/11 04:24 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 558
Did Ayn Rand ever wear the "I'd crush you to see the Who" T-shirt? Did she have a sense of humor?

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#206780 - 01/03/12 02:05 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Welp, I done it. I read Ayn Rand's Anthem. It was free on Amazon for Kindle, so I bought it, freemarketeer that I am.

It was a long parable (though a rather short story) about the heroic self-enlightenment evolution of a humano-unit in an extreme collectivist society into an extreme individual.

I found it to be an engaging enough read, though it seemed to have come from a polished 10th grade creative writer. Deep, it was not. Complex, it was not. Better than an early Star Trek episode, it was not.

Still, I could recall from that tender age the fantasy urge to be so unique and heroic, knowing little about the limits on one's ability to achieve such a state of pure fabulousness in the world.

Anthem supports the title of this topic quite well. However, I could not see the stuff of usable political philosophy in it, nor the acknowledgement of issues requiring pragmatism, nor in fact anything much of philosophy that relates to reality at all.

It was well worth the price!

sparknotes summary


Edited by logtroll (01/03/12 03:50 PM)
Edit Reason: add link
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#206814 - 01/03/12 08:57 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Irked Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3319
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
One can only shake one's head in wonder that anyone would give this man a second read after he posts something like this.

Paul Krugman NYT Blog

Quote:
I’m Ellsworth Toohey!


So says one of my commenters. And for my sins, I actually get the reference.

The best line I’ve ever heard about Ayn Rand’s influence:


"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."


_________________________
How eager they are to be slaves - Tiberus Caesar

Coulda tripped out easy, but I've changed my ways - Donovan

I consider myself to be a laid back type and quite tolerant on most issues - AB Breivik

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#206817 - 01/03/12 09:02 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Irked]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
"I’m Ellsworth Toohey!"

Then there's his brother Apple.

Don't sit under the Apple Toohey
With anyone else but me.
_________________________
Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#206823 - 01/03/12 09:19 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ted Remington]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: churlpat lives
"I’m Ellsworth Toohey!"

Then there's his brother Apple.

Don't sit under the Apple Toohey
With anyone else but me.


At the family dairy, the apple tree is located in the Toohey cheese zone.
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#206836 - 01/03/12 10:43 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Borrowed from the interwebs:

"Why libertarians believe that robbing a bank with a gun is wrong and so defending against it is a legitimate use of government force but robbing a bank with a phony derivative is just good capitalism is beyond me."
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

Top
#206899 - 01/04/12 10:50 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Here is a video put together by a young man that maps out humanity's possible descent into the godawful collectivist hell that Ayn Rand's Anthem hero, Equality 7-2521, escapes from into the paradise of pure Individualism.

Jeebus, I might lurge just thinking about it!

Vision for a Collectivist Hell
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#207038 - 01/04/12 08:44 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: churlpat lives
"I’m Ellsworth Toohey!"

Then there's his brother Apple.

Don't sit under the Apple Toohey
With anyone else but me.


At the family dairy, the apple tree is located in the Toohey cheese zone.

(to each his own = Toohey cheese zone? Sorry...)
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#207039 - 01/04/12 08:49 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Here is a video put together by a young man that maps out humanity's possible descent into the godawful collectivist hell that Ayn Rand's Anthem hero, Equality 7-2521, escapes from into the paradise of pure Individualism.

Jeebus, I might lurge just thinking about it!

Vision for a Collectivist Hell


So I have gone to all this effort and Sandy now just ignores me? 'Sup with dat?

I read Rand, I commented on Rand writings, I supplied a fat and juicy baby to feast on, and I get nothing. I be bummed, man.
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#207041 - 01/04/12 09:02 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida

dunce
You haven't been to a good enough university to discuss or even begin to understand Rand's work.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#207046 - 01/04/12 09:11 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6139
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger

dunce
You haven't been to a good enough university to discuss or even begin to understand Rand's work.

Equality 7-2521 never went to no university!!
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#207056 - 01/04/12 10:01 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
But he had Ayn Rand's hand up his butt and wiggling his lips while she did the talking. I wonder what Universities Ms. Rand attended...?

Guess I'll have to Google that.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#218148 - 03/27/12 11:35 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Greger]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6354
Loc: Florida/Illinois
Didn't want to start another thread, but this is interesting.
A new book
The Horrors of an Ayn Rand World

Quote:
An Objectivist America would be a dark age of unhindered free enterprise, far more primitive and Darwinian than anything seen before.


Quote:
In an Objectivist world, the reset button would be pushed on government services that we take for granted. They would not be cut back, not reduced -- they would vanish. In an Objectivist world, roads would go unplowed in the snows of winter, and bridges would fall as the government withdrew from the business of maintaining them -- unless some private citizen would find it in his rational self-interest to voluntarily take up the slack by scraping off the rust and replacing frayed cables. Public parks and land, from the tiniest vest-pocket patch of green to vast expanses of the West, would be sold off to the newly liberated megacorporations. Airplane traffic would be grounded unless a profit-making capitalist found it in his own selfish interests to fund the air traffic control system. If it could be made profitable, fine. If not, tough luck. The market had spoken. The Coast Guard would stay in port while storm- tossed mariners drown lustily as they did in days of yore. Fires would rage in the remnants of silent forests, vegetation and wildlife no longer protected by rangers and coercive environmental laws, swept clean of timber, their streams polluted in a rational, self-interested manner by bold, imaginative entrepreneurs.


Quote:
No government except the police, courts of law, and the armed services.
No regulation of anything by any government.
No Medicare or Medicaid.
No Social Security.
No public schools.
No public hospitals.
No public anything, in fact. Just individuals, each looking out for himself, not asking for help or giving help to anyone.

deja vu

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#218151 - 03/27/12 11:44 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 35957
Loc: Bay Area, California
After watching a Frontline article stating that Alan Greenspan was a "disciple" of Ayn Rand and how his "free market economist" program helped bring America to its knees, I'm not so keen on Ayn Rand and her free market principles.

Frontline even showed Ayn Rand at the White House when Greenspan was sworn in for some job in the Ford Administration. She was standing right next to Greenspan.

_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#218154 - 03/27/12 11:55 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: california rick]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6354
Loc: Florida/Illinois
For those who are really into Ayn Rand and friends... A personal chronology:
Rand and the Brandens

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#218156 - 03/28/12 12:10 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 35957
Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: itstarted
For those who are really into Ayn Rand and friends... A personal chronology:
Rand and the Brandens

Racy! Who knew economists were so sexual, sneaky, and vindictive? gobsmacked
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#218219 - 03/28/12 09:35 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: california rick]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: california rick
After watching a Frontline article stating that Alan Greenspan was a "disciple" of Ayn Rand and how his "free market economist" program helped bring America to its knees, I'm not so keen on Ayn Rand and her free market principles.

One of the lies being propagated is that Greenspan was somehow the archetect of a free market economy and it was a "free market" economy that was the source of the latest clusterf..k. To recognize how utterly rediculous and disengenuous this is one need only realize that an institution such as the federal reserve is the absolute antithesis of a free market.
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#218226 - 03/28/12 11:06 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11524
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: issodhos
To recognize how utterly rediculous and disengenuous this is one need only realize that an institution such as the federal reserve is the absolute antithesis of a free market.
Issodhos


If the mafia is the antithesis of the FBI, that would imply that the FBI could not infiltrate it's agents into the mafia, but they can.


I do not deny that The FED is largely the opposite of the free market.... but that does not prove that it would be impossible to find a person more favorable to the free market to run the place... and the SEC for that matter also.

THe fact is that, despite the apparent irony, Alan Greenspan was quite effective in reducing the regulatory impact of the Fed as compared to a Fed chairman who actually believed that Fed economic regulation was important an necessary.

Exactly the same dynamic could be seen at the Bush SEC... where an organization dedicated to market regulation was essentially neutered by a person who did not believe it was a good thing to interfere with the market.

As far as lying is concerned... what is clearly a lie is for anyone to state (or imply) that the chairmen if the FED can have no impact to shape the organization into a more or less of an effective regulatory force. It is a a absolute fact that Greenspan was not in favor of fed regulation and led the Fed in a way to minimize its regulatory impact
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#218229 - 03/29/12 12:04 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11524
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Mr Greenspan said

Quote:
a humbled Mr. Greenspan admitted that he had put too much faith in the self-correcting power of free markets and had failed to anticipate the self-destructive power of wanton mortgage lending.
link


What are the implications of the above statement?

1. Mr Greenspan trusted in free markets rather than regulation

2. Mr. Greenspan could have intervened to prevent the mortgage debacle... but chose not to.... certainly in part because he felt it to be unnecessary given that markets are self regulating.

this does not mean that the Greenspan led fed did not intervene in the markets.... it does mean that he avoided significant opportunities to avoid the coming crash....
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#218238 - 03/29/12 07:40 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 35957
Loc: Bay Area, California
The same free market guys from the Clinton Administration are in the Obama Administration: (sans Greenspan) Summers, Geitner, Bernanke.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#218239 - 03/29/12 07:47 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 35957
Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: issodhos
One of the lies being propagated is that Greenspan was somehow the archetect of a free market economy and it was a "free market" economy that was the source of the latest clusterf..k. To recognize how utterly rediculous and disengenuous this is one need only realize that an institution such as the federal reserve is the absolute antithesis of a free market.
Issodhos

Frontline addressed that issue on another airing stating that Greenspan had to legally support laws that he abhorred. But, to the extent possible, Mr. Greenspan was completely hands-off, and promoted no regulation of the market.

Frontline: The Warning

Given that Greenspan had set Fed policy for several decades of presidential Administrations, his policies did in fact lead to the mid-2000s crisis.

Now, we have Greenspan's younger colleagues, from that time period, running the show. This is why Wall Street is getting all of the passes that its getting today.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#218250 - 03/29/12 11:43 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: california rick]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11524
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: california rick
The same free market guys from the Clinton Administration are in the Obama Administration: (sans Greenspan) Summers, Geitner, Bernanke.


Giethner, Summers and Bernanke are not Free Market ideologues.... they did join in the free market "group think" that was common in the 90s-and 2000s


One of the less known impacts of Greenspan was that he came to be known as some sort of infallible genius of he time. Therefore he was often asked for his views on situations outside his authority.... like whether there should be regulation of derivatives. And of course Greenspan most always successively set the tone for reduced no no regulation.

Greenspan had a unique style that he developed at the fed..... he would talk on and on with arcane verbiage whose meaning was barely comprehensible. You would know generally wheather he was for or against something, but it would be impossible to argue against his position because he seemed to be operating at a level beyond mere mortals.... and so his pronouncements carried the day like some incontrovertible, incomprehensible soothsayer.
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#218251 - 03/29/12 11:53 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: california rick]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11524
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: california rick


Now, we have Greenspan's younger colleagues, from that time period, running the show. This is why Wall Street is getting all of the passes that its getting today.


FWIW, I think the group think has changed... even if the net output remains similar.

In the Greenspan era, their was near religious faith in free markets. In the present era, there is a skulking terror that one or more of the too big to fail dominoes will fall.... and the whole house of cards will come crashing down..... much like predicted by both Itstarted and Iss.
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#218281 - 03/29/12 03:59 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
numan Offline
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Quote:

If the mafia is the antithesis of the FBI....

WHAT A STRANGE IDEA !!


Edited by numan (03/29/12 04:00 PM)
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#218301 - 03/29/12 05:50 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
One of the less known impacts of Greenspan was that he came to be known as some sort of infallible genius of he time. Therefore he was often asked for his views on situations outside his authority.... like whether there should be regulation of derivatives. And of course Greenspan most always successively set the tone for reduced no no regulation.

Frontline shows Greenspan to be front and center in strong opposition to Brooksley Born's CFTC. Greenspan was more than an advice giver... Hmm
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#218302 - 03/29/12 05:53 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
..and the whole house of cards will come crashing down..... much like predicted by both Itstarted and Iss.

The 'House of Cards' charade needs to come clean at some point-in-time.
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#218324 - 03/29/12 09:57 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: california rick]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: california rick

Frontline shows Greenspan to be front and center in strong opposition to Brooksley Born's CFTC. Greenspan was more than an advice giver... Hmm


I completely agree... and was only making the point that his power extended far beyond his nominal role as chairman of the fed
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#218344 - 03/30/12 05:41 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
2wins Offline
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the markets fluctuated with every sound of his voice, for god's sake.
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#218439 - 03/30/12 10:42 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: california rick]
issodhos Offline
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Originally Posted By: california rick
The same free market guys from the Clinton Administration are in the Obama Administration: (sans Greenspan) Summers, Geitner, Bernanke.

Another curiosity tossed often tossed into the mix is that the Federal Reserve headed by Greenspan was fostering free markets. The abysmal silliness of such a claim becomes evident when one considers that the Federal Reserve is an agency created by Congress whose chairman is appointed by the Executive Office and confirmed by the Senate to engage in the anti-free market practice of manipulating the economy through the use of a fiat-based fractional banking system following an inflationary easy credit fiscal policy. In other words, it is a government agency, not the market, that determines whether interest rates should be forced up or down and how scarce or available credit will be. Ludicrous.
Yours,
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#218442 - 03/30/12 10:59 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: issodhos
Originally Posted By: california rick
The same free market guys from the Clinton Administration are in the Obama Administration: (sans Greenspan) Summers, Geitner, Bernanke.

Another curiosity tossed often tossed into the mix is that the Federal Reserve headed by Greenspan was fostering free markets.

Mr. Greenspan is on record (...and recorded video) as stating such. Hmm

I took him at his word. blush
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#218474 - 03/31/12 01:25 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: california rick]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: california rick

Mr. Greenspan is on record (...and recorded video) as stating such. Hmm

I took him at his word. blush


I recently listened to a couple of Greenspan's speeches. In discussing the housing /mortgage market, Greenspan could could not see beyond his role in impacting rates. In otherwords, he never even considered the soundness of the loans being made.... ,most likely because he was convinced that market forces would certainly discipline financial institutions to only make sound loans. He also never considered reducing the over leveraging of financial institutions by regulation... once again because he considered these institutions self regulating to protect their own best interest. Ditto for all of the the derivatives of dubious value that littered bank assets... again this was a matter of self regulation of risk in any given financial institution. And ditto the systemic risk that was accumulating.... again, this was all well controlled by self regulation.

And, in the end, the most fascinating thing is IMO.... here you see a clear illustration of two libertarians who think EXACTLY the same way. This is how Greenspan thought... and from his posting you can see this is also how Iss thinks..... the fed has no power other than manipulation of interest rates... so this is the only context withing which to evaluate greenspan. And since manipulation of interest rates is inherently anti free market.... therefore Greenspan himself must be inherently anti free market... we simply cannot look at any other actions he may or may not have chosen to do.
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#218501 - 03/31/12 04:31 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
california rick Offline
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...of Greenspan:

Arthur Levitt writes:

Quote:
It's been reported pretty broadly that Alan was a laissez-faire, Ayn Rand, free-market economist. I think that's simplistic. He was much more than that. He was thoughtful, careful, measured, not at all impulsive, very traditional and pretty set in his ways.

...

I had to prove to Alan why this regulation or that regulation made sense. I've always regarded the Federal Reserve as being the banker's protective association -- more concerned with safety and soundness than investor protection.

My obsession was investor protection. I couldn't care less about safety and soundness; that was part of the system. But if you don't have the confidence of investors, if you don't have the protections that are offered by private rights of action and the enforcement activities of the SEC, you have a universe of investors that don't trust, and we can't have markets that aren't trustworthy.


David Wessel writes:

Quote:
The chairman of the Federal Reserve has an enormous amount of power that comes with the job -- the power, of course, to move interest rates in one way or another that affect how the American economy works, in terms of how much we have to pay to borrow, how much businesses pay to borrow, how much we make on our savings, and all that stuff.

But Greenspan's power in the '90s and early 2000s went far beyond the tools that just happened to come with the job. He was the wise man. He was the one who members of Congress sought out at hearings for his blessing about their particular proposal about taxes.

He was the one to whom Bill Clinton went, very early in his tenure, to validate his deficit-reduction plan and to sort of assure the world that Bill Clinton was of sound mind and could actually manage the U.S. economy.

And Greenspan had a very clear -- he was not at all secretive about it -- ideology about regulation. He really didn't think that regulators could do very much to stop people from doing what they were going to do anyway. He thought that he would cite his experience on the board of JPMorgan as evidence that the banks knew a lot more than the bank examiners would ever know, and that the best thing that could happen would be to let the banks and other big investors who had a lot of money in the game police the poker table.

His view was that they were sophisticated. They had a lot at stake, and if things were going wrong, it would be in their interest to do something about it.

And I thought one of the most fascinating moments of the recent period is when Greenspan goes before [Rep.] Henry Waxman's [D-Calif.] committee, and Henry Waxman asks him, "Was your worldview wrong?" And Greenspan says yes, that it turns out that sophisticated money investors do not always do what is in their interest or in the interest of the system.


Joseph Stigliz writes:

Quote:
Greenspan, remember, always said that he was a believer in Ayn Rand, a believer in free market. Little bit curious for a central banker, because what is central banking? It's a massive intervention in the market, setting interest rates. So to me, that kind of perspective, to say, "I believe in free markets, but I'm going to accept the job at central banking," is a contradiction. You almost have to be schizophrenic.

The question is, what should be the interventions in the market? And we know we want some regulation -- how far do we go? And over the years, there's been a well-developed theory about when markets fail. We have a long historical experience and lots of economic theory.

Interestingly, some of the economic theory that was developed in the last quarter century -- my own work talking about what happens when there is imperfect information, which is, of course, at the centerpiece of financial markets -- explains that the reason that the invisible hand seems invisible so often is that it's not there. Markets are often not efficient. We can identify the nature of those failures -- not perfectly, but we can -- and say, "These are the instances in which we need government intervention."


Micheal Greenberger writes:

Quote:
When I went to work with [Brooksley Born] and she was telling me, "This is what you're up against," she told me that she had had this lunch with Alan Greenspan, and he had said to her probably that she and he were going to have a disagreement about something, and the subject was fraud. And he didn't believe that fraud was something that needed to be enforced or was something that regulators should worry about, and he assumed she probably did. And of course she did. I've never met a financial regulator who didn't feel that fraud was part of their mission, but that was her introduction to Alan Greenspan.

What does it tell you -- what did it tell her -- that he didn't believe fraud was a problem?

From what it told her and from what I could see in my observations of Alan Greenspan was that this was a man who was living almost in another era; that he was a total believer that the markets were self-correcting. For example, the reason he thought that fraud shouldn't be the worry of regulators is, well, if somebody committed fraud in the business community, the rational workings of the market would be that people wouldn't do business with that person, and therefore they would die on the vine. And so the free market self-corrects and takes care of fraudulent actors...
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#218517 - 03/31/12 07:12 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: california rick]
issodhos Offline
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Originally Posted By: california rick

I took him at his word. blush

Best to almost never do that, rick. ;-)
And, when you hear folks attempting to isolate something down to a single individual (single cog, if you will), ask yourself if, in fact, the issue is systemic. For example, to what extend does the Treasury involve itself in the economy? How deeply into the marketplace is Congress? What of the multitudes of fascistic bureaus answering to the Executive branch? What things are done by FHA and FHmA in making available easy money? How involved are Freddie and Fannie in making available easy credit and cheap money. ho sets reserve requirements and provides a bailout fund for banks so that they need not take prudent measures to avoid undue risk?

This, of course, leaves one to wonder what the phuc the wisenheimers are talking about when they spout of about free markets. Just a thing or two to think about while the usual smoke and mirror charade is being foisted on us by the mouthpieces for the established order.

Othe than that, I planted peas, onions, and spinach, today. It's a start. smile
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#218519 - 03/31/12 07:23 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: issodhos

Othe than that, I planted peas, onions, and spinach, today. It's a start. smile

Gee, how much do you suppose the harvest will be worth? wink
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#218524 - 03/31/12 07:37 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: logtroll]
issodhos Offline
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: issodhos

Othe than that, I planted peas, onions, and spinach, today. It's a start. smile

Gee, how much do you suppose the harvest will be worth? wink

In terms of freshness and knowing what has gone into and on to it? Priceless. ThumbsUp
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#218527 - 03/31/12 07:47 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
logtroll Offline
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Don't let le TaxMan find out!!
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#218531 - 03/31/12 08:05 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
Greger Offline
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Quote:
Other than that, I planted peas, onions, and spinach, today. It's a start.

Good for you Issman! I'll be picking my first peas and green beans very soon and am already pulling onions. I've got radishes, a few sugarsnaps to nibble on and yesterday ate the first few ripe blueberries.
Priceless indeed.

Oh and if you ever get around to Brussels sprouts I've created a delicious pickeled brussels sprout recipe.
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#218533 - 03/31/12 08:19 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greger
Good for you Issman! I'll be picking my first peas and green beans very soon and am already pulling onions. I've got radishes, a few sugarsnaps to nibble on and yesterday ate the first few ripe blueberries.
Priceless indeed.

Oh and if you ever get around to Brussels sprouts I've created a delicious pickeled brussels sprout recipe.


My success with brussel sprouts has been mixed. Some years they do great, other years they get gobbled up by the little nasties. I like them steamed and buttered, but I'm never averse to a new recipe. ThumbsUp
P.S. now, we better end this discusson lest we get charged with attempting to hijack the thread -- as though such a thing could be done. :-)
Issodhos


Edited by issodhos (03/31/12 08:23 PM)
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#218541 - 03/31/12 08:47 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
logtroll Offline
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How Greger seduced a generation of gardeners...

(With a brussells sprouts recipe?)
Hijack
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#218585 - 04/01/12 08:13 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
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#225119 - 06/07/12 05:02 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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#225125 - 06/07/12 05:19 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

Plausible... definitely plausible.
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