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#209278 - 01/17/12 08:59 PM what if Ron Paul were our President?
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#209325 - 01/18/12 08:46 AM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6290
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Powerful images and a lot of thoughts I can agree with.

The problem I have with the video is that it has an important embedded propagandistic assumption - that Republicans and Democrats have exactly the same agenda regarding world domination and war, and that Ron Paul is the only one who is enlightened.

"What if Barack Obama has no intention of ending the war in Iraq?", he says, the assumption being that all politicians, with the exception of himself, are beholden to the MIC.

I partially agree, but I think the fundamental order of business is to remove most of the money from political campaigns. Mr. Paul is not for that twist, supporting the CU ruling and all, and the war/interventionist thingy ain't going away as long as special interests can buy what they want.

The question Mr. Paul forgot to ask is, "What if Ron Paul has no intention of ending foreign interventionist policies?", or, "What if Ron Paul is wrong?".

The "What if?" game is fun to play, if you are the only one who gets to ask the "what if" questions. I think Ron Paul is an accomplished propagandist and I simply don't trust him.
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#209327 - 01/18/12 09:44 AM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I think Ron Paul is an accomplished propagandist and I simply don't trust him.

Bow Bow
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#209332 - 01/18/12 12:01 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
After the 13th and 14th amendments are revoked, the various civil Rights acts enacted from 1866 to 1964 will be revoked because property doesn't have civil rights, and everyone should own one.
_________________________
“If you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinskey

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#209334 - 01/18/12 12:12 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Online   content
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11656
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
IMO the American people have been propagandized into believing that it is a mater of pride, self respect, and national security that USA should be far and away the last remaining super power....

For many right wing folks this takes on a sort of religious overtone.... we are the strongest around because we are blessed by God. And to pulling back from that is almost a betrayal of to trust and power that god has invested in us.

In any case, how ever yo work the numbers, there is a large majority of people in this country who favor an active and strong military. And anyone contrary to that POV is held as unpatriotic and weak.

And this is the key reason that our policies continue as they do.... and also the reason why Ron Paul cannot be nominated, and if nominated cannot be elected.
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#209341 - 01/18/12 12:35 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11849
My biggest problem with Ron Paul is that he doesn't understand the Constitution, then claims to wrap himself in it (I actually typed "warp himslf. Freudian slip?). I prefer a President who has a realistic perception of history and reality. And I prefer it when his/followers do too.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#209349 - 01/18/12 01:18 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Under Ron Paul, all gay men in Texas would be sent to prison for deviant sexual behavior and the Boy Scouts could tell young gay teenagers to get their stinking deviant behavior out of their organization.
Quote:
Federal Courts and the Imaginary Constitution


Consider the Lawrence case decided by the Supreme Court in June. The Court determined that Texas had no right to establish its own standards for private sexual conduct, because gay sodomy is somehow protected under the 14th amendment “right to privacy.” Ridiculous as sodomy laws may be, there clearly is no right to privacy nor sodomy found anywhere in the Constitution. There are, however, states' rights — rights plainly affirmed in the Ninth and Tenth amendments. Under those amendments, the State of Texas has the right to decide for itself how to regulate social matters like sex, using its own local standards. But rather than applying the real Constitution and declining jurisdiction over a properly state matter, the Court decided to apply the imaginary Constitution and impose its vision on the people of Texas.

Similarly, a federal court judge in San Diego recently ordered that city to evict the Boy Scouts from a camp they have run in a city park since the 1950s. A gay couple, with help from the ACLU, sued the city claiming the Scouts' presence was a violation of the “separation of church and state.” The judge agreed, ruling that the Scouts are in essence a religious organization because they mention God in their recited oath. Never mind that the land, once privately owned, had been donated to the city for the express purpose of establishing a Scout camp. Never mind that the Scouts have made millions of dollars worth of improvements to the land. The real tragedy is that our founders did not intend a separation of church and state, and never envisioned a rigidly secular public life for America. They simply wanted to prevent Congress from establishing a state religion, as England had. The First amendment says “Congress shall make no law” — a phrase that cannot possibly be interpreted to apply to the city of San Diego. But the phony activist “separation” doctrine leads to perverse outcomes like the eviction of Boy Scouts from city parks.


Edited by Ozymanithrax (01/18/12 01:34 PM)
_________________________
“If you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinskey

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#209351 - 01/18/12 01:26 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: NW Ponderer]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
My biggest problem with Ron Paul is that he doesn't understand the Constitution...

...I prefer a President who has a realistic perception of history and reality. And I prefer it when his/followers do too.

When did the NDAA become constitutional? What's with the "realistic" support of "history" and "reality" of Israel's ethnic cleansing and AIPAC's stranglehold on Congress?
_________________________
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#209363 - 01/18/12 01:57 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Under Ron Paul, women in general, and raped women specifically, have no rights, and will carry that baby to term no matter what.
Abortion
In any state that wants, women who have abortions or miscarriages can be sent to prison.
http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/07/02/miscarriage-face-prison-time-for-murder/
Under the nnth and tenth amendment, States have the right to send women who terminate their pregnancies or miscarry to prison. They can put them in cells with gay men who comit deviant sexual acts.


Edited by Ozymanithrax (01/18/12 02:13 PM)
_________________________
“If you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinskey

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#209366 - 01/18/12 02:08 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Siannan Offline
journeyman

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 813
Loc: New Jersey Pine Barrens
Now that's the biggest thing that I dislike about Ron Paul. The fact that it's obvious he's pro Men's rights, but Women's rights? What? Especially the right to determine reproduction? Whether or not you have the right to choose whether to have a child if you are pregnant, or for that matter, whether you even want to get pregnant in the first place? I don't think so. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No man is going to tell me I will have a baby I don't want to have. No man is going to tell my daughter or my granddaughter, or my niece or my grandniece or my friend or my neighbor. And no man is going to tell us we will not have a baby we want to have either. Sorry, ain't going to happen.
_________________________
***********************
"The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty certain they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues." - Liz Taylor

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#209427 - 01/18/12 08:53 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: logtroll]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: logtroll
The question Mr. Paul forgot to ask is, ... "What if Ron Paul is wrong?".

His answer to your question begins at the 3 minute 10 second mark, logtroll.
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#209428 - 01/18/12 08:59 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6290
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Gee, it's too bad that am not ever going to watch to his proganda piece again - I'll never know how his answer began. coffee
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#209443 - 01/18/12 11:16 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: NW Ponderer]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
My biggest problem with Ron Paul is that he doesn't understand the Constitution, ...

I think the biggest problem many have with him is that he does understand the Constitution as it was meant to be understood, and has not swallowed the "living constitution" hagfishery that is used to make it mean whatever those in power wish it to mean at any given moment for their or their supporter's advantage. Silly really to talk about constitutionality at all, but I guess (for who knows what reason) he thinks it is of interest to the electorate. Quaint really -- and kinda of American (in and old fashioned way). coffee
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#209444 - 01/18/12 11:26 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Siannan]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Siannan
Now that's the biggest thing that I dislike about Ron Paul. The fact that it's obvious he's pro Men's rights, but Women's rights?

There are no group rights. There are only individual rights. Paul recognizes and speaks on individual rights. That is another reason why groupists have a problem with him. It is what it is. coffee
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#209445 - 01/18/12 11:33 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Siannan Offline
journeyman

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 813
Loc: New Jersey Pine Barrens
Originally Posted By: issodhos
Originally Posted By: Siannan
Now that's the biggest thing that I dislike about Ron Paul. The fact that it's obvious he's pro Men's rights, but Women's rights?

There are no group rights. There are only individual rights. Paul recognizes and speaks on individual rights. That is another reason why groupists have a problem with him. It is what it is. coffee


Men don't get pregnant.
_________________________
***********************
"The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty certain they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues." - Liz Taylor

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#209447 - 01/18/12 11:46 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20618
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
issodhos, individuals are members of groups in some cases. The law recognizes this in several amendments to the Constitution.

When individuals are acted upon because of real or perceived group characteristics, it is settled law that they be protected by group solutions.

You and those who aren't members of such groups would never understand the need for such solutions.

Which makes what you state pure nonsense.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#209448 - 01/18/12 11:49 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
AustinRanter Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 3643
Loc: Austin, Texas
What if any standing Republican candidate becomes president?

Maybe it's time that we get a full-blown Republican controlled government. Let's get it over with. It may be the only way to finally disclose what their agendas are (which in the end, are the same as the Democrats). They need to do the deal. Take good old America to Utopia. Lets all guarantee their success under one condition. If they fail, then they will simply need to shut the [censored] up and fess up that there's always more than one answer, more than one path, more than one political remedy based on just one political philosophy...and resign from office. I'm tired of hearing their bulls***. They had the reign before. The Democrats have had the total show before. They're equally full of s***.

So...lets get down to the nut-cut. Vote'em in. Let's see how our nation winds up.

Hell, better yet, lets vote in Mr. Blankfein, the CEO of Goldman to run the country sitting in the White House. Surely hiding behind lobbyists is getting boring.
_________________________
Turn on ANY brand of political machine - and it automatically goes to the "SPIN and LIE CYCLE" wink

Yours Truly - Gregg



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#209449 - 01/18/12 11:52 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: AustinRanter]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20618
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
AR, we did that in 2006,. remember? And Wisconsin knows what that is like too, and now over 1 million have signed on to undo it.

I am unwilling to voluntarily sign us over to hell. Purgatory is bad enough
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#209450 - 01/18/12 11:54 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Phil Hoskins]
AustinRanter Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 3643
Loc: Austin, Texas
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
AR, we did that in 2006,. remember? And Wisconsin knows what that is like too, and now over 1 million have signed on to undo it.

I am unwilling to voluntarily sign us over to hell. Purgatory is bad enough


Since when have we not been in hell...politically?

And isn't it time all of America do a recall...

Uhhhh, Phil, did you only read the first sentence of my post?


Edited by AustinRanter (01/18/12 11:58 PM)
_________________________
Turn on ANY brand of political machine - and it automatically goes to the "SPIN and LIE CYCLE" wink

Yours Truly - Gregg



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#209453 - 01/19/12 12:56 AM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Phil Hoskins]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36152
Loc: Bay Area, California
This post is offtopic

Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
issodhos, individuals are members of groups in some cases. The law recognizes this in several amendments to the Constitution.

When individuals are acted upon because of real or perceived group characteristics, it is settled law that they be protected by group solutions.

I wish you hadn't written the above Phil - because it now makes me feel that the SCOTUS was right in Citizens United v FCC


Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
You and those who aren't members of such groups would never understand the need for such solutions.

I tried to explain this to non-gays last month and I didn't convince them. They are quite sure they understand what being gay is like and offered their solutions to gay issues.

***Back to topic***
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#209461 - 01/19/12 02:22 AM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Freedom of association is a group freedom.
California Democratic Party v. Jones

Quote:
California Democratic Party v. Jones presented the following question: Does California's voter-approved Proposition 198, which changes its partisan primary from a closed primary to a blanket primary, violate political parties' First Amendment right of association?

In a 7-2 opinion delivered by Justice Antonin Scalia, the Court held that California's blanket primary violates a political party's First Amendment right of association. "Proposition 198 forces political parties to associate with—to have their nominees, and hence their positions, determined by—those who, at best, have refused to affiliate with the party, and, at worst, have expressly affiliated with a rival," wrote Justice Antonin Scalia for the majority. "A single election in which the party nominee is selected by nonparty members could be enough to destroy the party." Justice Scalia went on to state for the Court that Proposition 198 takes away a party's "basic function" to choose its own leaders and is functionally "both severe and unnecessary."

Justices John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg dissented. Stevens wrote: "This Court's willingness to invalidate the primary schemes of 3 States and cast serious constitutional doubt on the schemes of 29 others at the parties' behest is an extraordinary intrusion into the complex and changing election laws of the States."

A political party, i.e a group of people, have the freedom of association granted them by the Constituion in accordanc with the SCOTUS delivered by Justice Antonin Scalia.

Groups have rights.
_________________________
“If you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinskey

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#209464 - 01/19/12 02:35 AM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: california rick]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20618
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Rick I was responding to your posts and that of issodhos that claimed there are no group rights.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#209465 - 01/19/12 02:36 AM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: AustinRanter]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
AR,
Between the loss of Jim Jeffords seat in Jan 2003 and the Jan 2007, Republicans controled all three branches of government.

Been there, done that.
_________________________
“If you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinskey

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#209473 - 01/19/12 06:37 AM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: california rick]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
it now makes me feel that the SCOTUS was right in Citizens United v FCC

That's no surprise considering which candidates and which policies you support. Regarding the constitution and hagfishery; the genius of the founders is that they foresaw a future where needs would be different and designed into the Constitution enough flexibility to meet those different needs. Strict construtionists simply feed a different variety of hagfish.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#209543 - 01/19/12 03:14 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Getting back to the topic, I don't Paul would be able to be worse than previous Presidents, but I also don't think that he would be better, either.

In my opinion, the USA has already passed the Point of No Return. There are no practicable measures which can save the situation. The inertia of its disastrous policies will carry it over the cliff into the abyss. Those who realize this most clearly will have the greatest possibility of surviving the catastrophe.

I often think of what the United States might have been, after the Second World War, when endless possibilities for progress and enlightenment were still achievable. Over and over again, the American people surrendered to ignorance, complacency, arrogance and hysteria. The results are all around us. It is a sad end to so many might-have-beens.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#209544 - 01/19/12 03:22 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Greger]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36152
Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
...the genius of the founders is that they foresaw a future where needs would be different and designed into the Constitution enough flexibility to meet those different needs.

Yes, that is why there is an amendment process - "interpretation" to fit today's mores shouldn't apply. I agree with Ron Paul on this position.

As I have written here before, I don't believe the 14th amendment was truly meant to include a truck's axle weight. If the "equal protection clause" includes trucks axle weights - why not corporations as individuals?

I don't believe the Constitution states either; therefore, "equal protection" for truck axle weight and corporations as individuals has been incorrectly interpreted by the SCOTUS.

Then again, my station in life doesn't include legislating from the bench - so what do I know?
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#209546 - 01/19/12 03:33 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: numan]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I don't(think?) Paul would be able to be worse than previous Presidents

I agree, although I would specify Republican Presidents since those have, by far, been the worst of the lot beginning with honest Abe Lincoln who was anything but and managed to plunge the nation into a civil war and winding up, most recently, with George W. Bush who plunged us into two wars in the middle east at the same time with no real reason for either of them.
Representative Paul has neither the support of Republicans or Democrats, which makes him an excellent choice for all breeds of government haters and malcontents but the "what if" is too big and Paul's chances too small to make him really worth discussing at all.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#209549 - 01/19/12 03:38 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: california rick]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
"interpretation" to fit today's mores shouldn't apply.

But they do apply and have always applied since the very inception of the constitution. Rep. Paul's interpretation of the constitution is pretty convoluted in and of itself, but it is in agreement with a few strict constructionist types who have interpreted there own way to suit the modern world.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#209550 - 01/19/12 03:42 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Greger]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
"interpretation" to fit today's mores shouldn't apply.

But they do apply and have always applied since the very inception of the constitution.

Then, you have agree that Citizen's United v FCC is valid. Hmm I don't agree the interpretation is valid. smile

You can't have it both ways: The Constitution can be interpreted under today's standards AND Citizen's United v FCC was a wrong decision.
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#209553 - 01/19/12 03:56 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: california rick]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
It was a bad decision but Representative Paul supports it so how could it be unconstitutional? Either his modern interpretation of the constitution is faulty or yours is.
Either way the constitution has been open to interpretation without the need for constant amendment since its inception. Like I said, different hagfish for different folks.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#209569 - 01/19/12 07:08 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6290
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I finally figured out why crick has become such a ravenous fan of Dr. Paul.

Conan shows Ron Paul in a favorable light

Eeyow! Hot!
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#209603 - 01/19/12 08:44 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Ozymanithrax]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax
Freedom of association is a group freedom.

...snip...

A political party, i.e a group of people, have the freedom of association granted them by the Constituion in accordanc with the SCOTUS delivered by Justice Antonin Scalia.

Groups have rights.


You are wrong for several reasons, Ozymanithrax. The Constitution does not "grant" rights.

The existance of rights is not subject to the "accordance" of any government appointee, much less political appointees who sit on the bench.

The only "right to association" in regard to your example is that of the individuals to voluntarilly associate with those they wish to associate with in regard to the organization they are members of, and voluntarily reject associating with those whom they do not wish to associate with. It is what it is. coffee
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#209608 - 01/19/12 08:58 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36152
Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I finally figured out why crick has become such a ravenous fan of Dr. Paul.

Conan shows Ron Paul in a favorable light

Eeyow! Hot!

LOL

Conan is funny.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#209613 - 01/19/12 09:17 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Greger]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Greger
That's no surprise considering which candidates and which policies you support. Regarding the constitution and hagfishery; the genius of the founders is that they foresaw a future where needs would be different and designed into the Constitution enough flexibility to meet those different needs. Strict construtionists simply feed a different variety of hagfish.

The important distinction is the recognition of that which is comparable in kind versus actually altering the meaning of portions of the document for purposes of circumvention. One of the deceits used against following the Constitution is to claim that a movie would not be protected as intellectual property under Article 1 Section 8 because movies did not exist when the Constitution was ratified. Movies, of course, fall within the category of "in kind" with regard to Science and useful Arts. It is a natural and logical expansion. By the opposite token, changing the meaning of "regulating commerce" to mean the federal government has the authority to involve itself in anything that in some way has a connection with crossing a state line is simply subversion. Your choice, Greger. :-)
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#209615 - 01/19/12 09:27 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Scoutgal Offline
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Issy~If you don't think that groups have rights, then why "We The People"? The Preamble itself starts off as a group statement. We fought the Revolutionary War as a group, we elected our leaders as a group, and we govern/get governed as a group. The Congress even votes by groups, and passes laws for groups-such as all men being created equal and can vote, choose a religion, and to women, as being able to vote, own land, and as an an ethnic group(s) when the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964. We have rights granted individually and as a group.
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#209618 - 01/19/12 09:30 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
issodhos Offline
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Registered: 09/29/05
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#209620 - 01/19/12 09:42 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: issodhos]
Ozymanithrax Offline
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Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: issodhos
You are wrong for several reasons, Ozymanithrax. The Constitution does not "grant" rights.

The existance of rights is not subject to the "accordance" of any government appointee, much less political appointees who sit on the bench.

The only "right to association" in regard to your example is that of the individuals to voluntarilly associate with those they wish to associate with in regard to the organization they are members of, and voluntarily reject associating with those whom they do not wish to associate with. It is what it is. coffee

Isso, your a riot and you are wrong for four reasons.

(1) The Supreme Court specifically states in their decision mentioned in the link a Freedom of Association. It is a matter of settled law.

(2) Our basic rights exits within our founding document, the Constitution. There is no universal law that provides these rights. As a people, the founders decided that these rights existed. Since our exact set of rights do not exist elsewhere in any nation, tribe, or clan, it is clear that there is no law innate to the universe that establishes these rights.

(3) If the existence of rights was "not subject to the "accordance" of any government appointee, much less political appointees who sit on the bench" then no one could take those rights away. It is clear that these rights can be taken away by a government. It is clear they were not recognized before the Constitution in the Articles of the Confederations, though some of them were mentioned in the Northwest Ordnance. It is clear that King George did not recognize those rights. Since, they did not exist before, and can be taken away, they are subject to the accordance of a government.

(4) The rights under the Constitution were not given over to slaves before the 13th and 14th amendment. Slaves rights were limited to those enjoyed now by your refrigerator. Since they did not have them, those rights were not immutable and pre-existing even within our system.

Finally,If you want an example of something that is "not subject to the "accordance" of any government appointee, much less political appointees who sit on the bench" test gravity. Gravity is subject to natural law. Rights are an agreement by a group of people, and when not recognized by the group or the government in power they don't exist.

One other thing, if rights are "not subject to the "accordance" of any government appointee, much less political appointees who sit on the bench" where did Corporations get freedom of speech that is now the law of the land? They are not living beings endowed by their creator with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A corporation isn't alive, it is not free to do anything its creator or creators don't want, and is sure as hell can't pursue happiness. A Corporation is a legal fiction created so rich folk don't have to pay for their financial mistakes.


Edited by Ozymanithrax (01/19/12 09:45 PM)
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#209637 - 01/19/12 11:08 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Scoutgal]
california rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
...groups have rights..."We The People"? The Preamble itself starts off as a group statement.

...

We have rights granted individually and as a group.

Good point. Then, the SCOTUS was correct in Citizen United v FCC - much to my chagrin.
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#209639 - 01/19/12 11:09 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: california rick]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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No Rick, corporations do not have rights, the owners of corporations do, but not corporations.
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#209641 - 01/19/12 11:11 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Phil Hoskins]
california rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
No Rick, corporations do not have rights, the owners of corporations do, but not corporations.

So, then, the stockholders (corporate 'owners') have the right to unlimited amount of "free speech" (money to promote their agenda?)
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#209645 - 01/19/12 11:29 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ozymanithrax Offline
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Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
No Rick, corporations do not have rights, the owners of corporations do, but not corporations.

Phil, Corporations should not have rights, but now they do. Their right to free speech is separate from that of their owners. That is the real problem.

You could look at it as if the owners of Corporations, and those on the Board of Directors, were given special rights the rest of us don't have, creating a special super class of corporate elite. That is how it works in Practice. But under the law Corporations do have free speech. They are fictional human beings with the unlimited right of free speech. The SCOTUS gave it to them.
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#209646 - 01/19/12 11:33 PM Re: what if Ron Paul were our President? [Re: california rick]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
...groups have rights..."We The People"? The Preamble itself starts off as a group statement.

...

We have rights granted individually and as a group.

Good point. Then, the SCOTUS was correct in Citizen United v FCC - much to my chagrin.

Rick, in what way are Corporations people?
They do not breathe.
They do not think independently.
They do not have free will.
So, how are Corporations people?

How Citizens United works in practice is to give Corporate owners and Boards of Directors (and to be fair unions) special rights. They can act like they are independent, living, breathing human beings.

But I see no real way in which they are part of "We the People..."

Please show me.


Edited by Ozymanithrax (01/19/12 11:34 PM)
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