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#216770 - 03/18/12 05:03 AM Madness is not the reason for this massacre
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Robert Fisk: Madness is not the reason for this massacre

Quote:
The Afghan narrative has been curiously lobotomised – censored, even – by those who have been trying to explain this appalling massacre in Kandahar. They remembered the Koran burnings – when American troops in Bagram chucked Korans on a bonfire – and the deaths of six Nato soldiers, two of them Americans, which followed. But blow me down if they didn't forget – and this applies to every single report on the latest killings – a remarkable and highly significant statement from the US army's top commander in Afghanistan, General John Allen, exactly 22 days ago. Indeed, it was so unusual a statement that I clipped the report of Allen's words from my morning paper and placed it inside my briefcase for future reference.

Allen told his men that "now is not the time for revenge for the deaths of two US soldiers killed in Thursday's riots". They should, he said, "resist whatever urge they might have to strike back" after an Afghan soldier killed the two Americans. "There will be moments like this when you're searching for the meaning of this loss," Allen continued. "There will be moments like this, when your emotions are governed by anger and a desire to strike back. Now is not the time for revenge, now is the time to look deep inside your souls, remember your mission, remember your discipline, remember who you are."
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#216783 - 03/18/12 12:28 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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I disagree. The piece was nothing but a pure excuse to use sensationalism to push a political agenda. There is a qualitative difference beween succumbing to psychological pressure and pushing a political agenda through acts of terrorism, and the author knows it. But, that would not support his narrative. There are legitmate issues to discuss, and there are consequences that can be expected in any sustained military action, but this is not a reasoned - or even honest - attempt to do so. It is yellow journalism as bad as FOX news.

Now, havimg said all that, I am open to discussing the underlying dilemma that created the conditions that led to this tragedy.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#216784 - 03/18/12 12:42 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
tragedy.


Crime
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#216785 - 03/18/12 01:03 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Crime is a tragedy. I can pretty much guarantee that the families don't care about why their loved one is dead. They just know their loss. I don't place the author above the Taliban in this situation. They are both exploiting a tragic incident to push an agenda.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#216786 - 03/18/12 01:07 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
Ozymanithrax Offline
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Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
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#216790 - 03/18/12 01:47 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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The US military has a very long history of crime, brutality, torture and murder -- think of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and many other places.

How could it be otherwise, considering the training brainwashing and psychological conditioning they undergo in order to become the efficient tools of their greedy, heartless masters.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#216791 - 03/18/12 01:49 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Ozymanithrax]
issodhos Offline
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Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Ozymanithrax

To borrow from Hoskins, what a load of crap. It happened because we are there, and have been there for 10 years under two miserable excuses occupying the Oval Office and with the grovelling acquiescence of an utterly corrupt Congress. However, through the able machinations of the Establishment's major media eunuchs in broadcast and print, all focus will be on a single soldier to 'determine' what could have possibly made him do what he did. Now, let the excuses flow, ranters.
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#216793 - 03/18/12 01:53 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: numan]
issodhos Offline
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Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
The US military State has a very long history of crime, brutality, torture and murder ....
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#216795 - 03/18/12 01:57 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11772
Sorry, Schlack, I was really hoping that we could have a reasoned discussion about the topic, but I see that our two spewers-in-chief have set upon the thread with excremental inanities... as usual.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#216806 - 03/18/12 02:35 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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In other words, wise, moderate, impartial, judicious, ad hominem addict NW Ponderer -- you deny that the following is true?

"The US military has a very long history of crime, brutality, torture and murder -- think of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and many other places."

If that is the case, I would be very interested in citations from you supporting that view -- because, man, there sure are tidal waves of citations that support what I wrote!

Moreover, what I wrote has strong and direct relevance to what has happened in Afghanistan -- so your comment is totally without merit.

On the other hand, I accept Issodhos' correction, and agree with it.

That is my Achilles' Heel -- I am always too moderate in my comments about the US government. I must learn to stop pulling my punches.


Edited by numan (03/18/12 02:39 PM)
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#216861 - 03/18/12 08:47 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 11772
It is interesting that so many people would choose to ignore or simply not consider the state of mind of an individual who engages in such horrific conduct, when state of mind is such an integral part of the legal constructs around homicide - distinguishing between manslaughter and murder, or degrees of murder, or insanity, or self-defense. Certainly SSG Bales' state of mind will be an integral part of his trial, both prosecution and defense. Do we equate all horrors? Was the rampage of Anders Behring Breivik in Norway the same as George Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Williams in Florida, or the raid on bin Laden's compound? Is a terrorist attack on the World Trade Centers equivalent to a firefight between the Taliban and NATO troops? The shelling of Homs? The systematic ethnic cleansing in Srebrenica?

This is why I had such a visceral response to the original article. It was, in my opinion, simply using the incident as a peg to hang an otherwise fully-formed and ideologically-based argument, devoid of relation to the actual circumstance involved. He was, by admission, holding onto the quote of General Allen so he could use the words against him, because he doesn't like generals. His complete inability to make distinctions between the causes of violence, I think, was a disservice to his readers. I found the article that Ozymanithrax posted approached the subject with more rationality and scientific inquiry (of course, that would be rejected by any who would rather just pursue an ideological agenda, rather than relevant inquiry).

There are real and significant issues to discuss: with regard to why we are in Afghanistan in the first place; what stresses this kind of operation puts on parties involved, voluntarily or not, in the conflict; and whether there are legitimate distinctions to be made in actions taken within the conflict. Not doing so is doing a disservice to legitimate inquiry. Mr. Fisk's analysis was not only facile, it was ill-informed, which is something surprising from someone with his experience. But, that may be because he has become too cynical to approach the subject with an unjaundiced eye. Over time, anyone - journalist, soldier, observer - develops "theories" about "the world" and can only respond through that particular lens. It is very difficult to separate oneself from personal prejudices and predilections. We have all seen way too many examples of that - from unreasoned anti-Americanism, to the Serbian penchant for victimhood in Bosnia, Croatia, and Macedonia, to explanations from the Assad, Mubarak, Ghaddafi, Putin, Ahmadinejad and other regimes of how it is always "outside instigators" and not internal dissent that causes unrest.

If we cannot make distinctions about the causes of violence and the legitimacy or illegitimacy of particular actions, we are not being honest with ourselves, or, in Mr. Fisk's case, with his readers. THAT is why I disagreed so vehemently.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#216870 - 03/18/12 09:13 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Our violence is better than their violence is a pretty poor argument.
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#216879 - 03/18/12 10:22 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'

It is no argument at all.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#216880 - 03/18/12 10:25 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11772
That all depends, my friend. Is violence ever justified? I, by the way, did not say "our violence is better than their violence" - although I suppose I could have. I am simply saying that there are degrees justification for violence and that our humanity requires that we make distinctions. That is, after all, the basis for the Law of Armed Conflict, and indeed, all of international law. If we are unable to distinguish between justified and unjustified actions, then we are no better than the worst offender.

I am not at all condoning the actions of Staff Sergeant Bales, nor of others who act indiscriminately. I am simply opining that it is incumbent upon all of us to be willing to seek understanding and reason, even in the face of the most atrocious actions. I have urged the same considerations with regard to the 9/11 terrorists - we need to understand why such actions occur in order to prevent them in the future. The same lack of consideration has resulted in the creation of the TSA and its analogs in other nations that blindly, in many cases, apply processes to travelers without analysis of their effectiveness.

Please do not apply my criticism of Mr. Fisk's article to your bringing the article to the forum for consideration (I'm glad you did). As I said, there are many issues raised that are worthy of discussion, I just didn't find his approach in the least persuasive or satisfying. Should we have gone into Afghanistan? Should we still be there? Can we be effective?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#216881 - 03/18/12 10:42 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20592
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
NWP, with respect to our military, war breeds violence beyond the scope of the war itself. When a person is trained to kill, a switch has to go into a different position in the mind from that of a person not so trained.

Humankind has built up a wall around human life such that taking such a life has to be a rare event. It requires great justification and failing that, is punished.

In the military it is a goal. I know, not officially, but you take a 19 year old partially civilized man and train him to kill, to defend, to "protect those at home" by killing another human being, and you play with fire.

That fire is going to blaze uncontrolled at times when the person you have trained does not have sufficient internal controls to use that training only as shaped by the trainer.

I think focusing on this individual and his personal crisis is fine for a trial, but woefully lacking from the point of view of a discussion. No matter what the reason he did what he did it is ONLY because the state has trained him to do it.

No, he was not trained to go off on his own, but he was trained to kill, given justification for crossing the line deep in human culture, and I can only imagine what the culture of his particular friends and unit might have been.

This stain is ours, it is our shame, it is our fault, we are the ones who need to reconsider what we are doing there, what we are doing as a nation, what we are doing to other humans under the banner of -- take your pick -- patriotism, honor, saving lives, etc etc.

The US should immediately and rapidly pull out of Afghanistan, pull back our "advisers" ion Iraq, pull back our bases all over the world and reflect on the fact that they do not make us any safer, have created a massive drain on our economy and morality.

War is never good, at best it is the last resort, not a strategy.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#216882 - 03/18/12 10:58 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 11772
A lot to consider, Phil, but I do take exception to one of the underlying points: "pull back our bases all over the world and reflect on the fact that they do not make us any safer, have created a massive drain on our economy and morality." Au contraire, mein kumpel. If you look at the relative violence in the world before and after the establishment of those bases, you will find that they have created stability, safety and security wherever they have been placed. Go ahead, take a look. Now, they don't make the dangers go away, and they are used as an excuse by those who would commit violence anyway, but they emphatically do make us safer. Nor do I agree that they affect our morality. I have been a Soldier for 27 years. I have been trained to commit violence, but I have never done so, thankfully never having had to.

Indeed, those that have experience in war are much less likely to want to engage in warfare than those who have none. It is usually the men in uniform who are advocating within government for restraint. It is the politicians who advocate for the use of military force as an instrument of national policy, and usually those with no military experience. My biggest concern in this arena is that those who have no real world knowledge of what being in the military means are making decisions for those in uniform - who stand ready to sacrifice all for the benefit of others.

I happen to agree wholeheartedly that "War is never good, at best it is the last resort, not a strategy." The problem, of course, is that those making the decisions are not those that have to bear those consequences.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#216884 - 03/18/12 11:05 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
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NWP, there is no doubt that our bases have served a useful purpose. But are you really contending that our bases in Europe are the source of European stability? Or just whose stability are they key to?

I have (probably obviously) never served in the military -- because I absolutely refuse to do so. At the time I was drafted in the 1960's I had no deferment. I was able to find a doctor who gave me the pass I needed, but I had determined going to the intake that no matter what it took I would not go.

Instead I took to the streets and rejected the imperial empire and its phony wars. Since that date there has never been a single military adventure -- we don't have wars anymore -- that was necessary or appropriate. Not one.

So it is time to take all our resources from the military and then add back only that which is as necessary as schools, health, food, roads, rails, and all the other things that are sacrificed so that the military monster can keep unabated.

Stop all war now. All. All.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#216886 - 03/18/12 11:23 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 11772
On to another point. "I think focusing on this individual and his personal crisis is fine for a trial, but woefully lacking from the point of view of a discussion. No matter what the reason he did what he did it is ONLY because the state has trained him to do it." I also emphatically disagree with the statement that he did what he did only because the state trained him to do it. Just not true, and in fact, counter-evidential. The majority of massacres of this nature have nothing to do with military training. Whether it is shooting up a school campus, attacking a summer camp, targeting a politician, or shooting up a McDonalds - all real world, non-military incidents - these individual actions are not inspired by military training. I will agree that Staff Sergeant Bales would not have taken it out on local villagers had he not been placed in that circumstance by his government, and that the pressures and experiences he had shaped the incident, but it is simply too simplistic to say "it is because he had military training." In fact, it is just not logical or supportable.

Having said that, experiences in war do lead to a certain percentage of individuals to becoming inured to violence. Violence will beget violence. I am not excusing such behavior, but neither the colors you are using, nor the brush you are using to apply them, are appropriate for the circumstance.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#216890 - 03/18/12 11:47 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20592
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Agree to disagree NWP
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#216911 - 03/19/12 11:37 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

If we are unable to distinguish between justified and unjustified actions, then we are no better than the worst offender.

The US government is no better than the worst offender.
In fact, since the 1950s, it is the worst offender!!

Quote:
I am simply opining that it is incumbent upon all of us to be willing to seek understanding and reason, even in the face of the most atrocious actions. I have urged the same considerations with regard to the 9/11 terrorists - we need to understand why such actions occur in order to prevent them in the future.

No, first you need to prove who actually committed such actions, before you can prevent them.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#216913 - 03/19/12 11:50 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Phil Hoskins]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
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Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins

This stain is ours, it is our shame, it is our fault....

You've got that right, and in spades!!

And it is shame not just for that one incident, but for every evil that the US War Machine has done, every evil that the US government and its oligarchy has done, and shame for every American -- just as much as the most gentle and peaceable Germans were shamed by what the Nazis did.

Quote:

War is never good, at best it is the last resort, not a strategy.

My complaint is that war is a strategy for the rulers of America, not a last resort.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#216915 - 03/19/12 11:57 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

...these individual actions are not inspired by military training.

But they are encouraged by the militarism and violence of American society.

Quote:
Having said that, experiences in war do lead to a certain percentage of individuals to becoming inured to violence. Violence will beget violence.

Do tell.

Quote:
I am not excusing such behavior....

Aren't you?
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#216936 - 03/19/12 01:49 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Originally Posted By: numan

The US government is no better than the worst offender.
In fact, since the 1950s, it is the worst offender!!


You state that it is explicitly fact that the US is the worst offender. Please provide citations to support that.

This board requires that all statements of what is fact require statements. Please comply with the guidelines.

Ted Remington, fellow Ranter


Edited by Ted Remington (03/19/12 01:51 PM)
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Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#216956 - 03/19/12 02:45 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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I will be only too delighted to grant your request, Ted, though I am quite sure that a man of your intelligence can think of them instantly. Perhaps you are feeling a little lazy today?

To begin with, how about more than 14 million citations?

Crimes of the United States

And for more specificity, how about :

The Nobel Prize in Literature

Quote:
The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.
I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road. Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It's a winner. Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, 'the American people', as in the sentence, 'I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.'
It's a scintillating stratagem. Language is actually employed to keep thought at bay. The words 'the American people' provide a truly voluptuous cushion of reassurance. You don't need to think. Just lie back on the cushion. The cushion may be suffocating your intelligence and your critical faculties but it's very comfortable.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#216957 - 03/19/12 02:51 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
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And then from Wikipedia, we have this :

Timeline of United States military operations

I can't really quote it, since it is much, Much, MUCH too long, but here are some of the sub-headings :

# 2 Other interventions
# 3 Battles with the Native Americans
# 4 Relocation
# 5 Armed insurrections and slave revolts
# 6 Range wars
# 7 Bloody local feuds
# 8 Bloodless boundary disputes
# 9 Terrorist, paramilitary groups and guerrilla warfare

* 9.1 18th & 19th century
* 9.2 20th & 21st century

# 10 Labor-management disputes
# 11 State and national secession attempts
# 12 Riots, disorder and natural disasters
# 13 Covert operations, coups, military advisers etc.

* 13.1 1950s
* 13.2 1960s
* 13.3 1970s
* 13.4 1980s
* 13.5 2010s
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#216962 - 03/19/12 03:08 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sorry, Schlack, I was really hoping that we could have a reasoned discussion about the topic, but I see that our two spewers-in-chief have set upon the thread with excremental inanities... as usual.


Use the IGGY button.
I am and I feel better for it.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#216965 - 03/19/12 03:11 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Well that proved exactly nothing. Which is what I expected.
_________________________
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#216967 - 03/19/12 03:31 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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Sorry if too much truth is painful for you, Ted -- but then, YOU ASKED FOR IT!
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#216972 - 03/19/12 03:54 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
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Originally Posted By: numan
'

Sorry if too much truth is painful for you, Ted -- but then, YOU ASKED FOR IT!


But I did not get it. And you know that you did not provide it. Show that the US is the worst. That is what you stated as fact, and you have not proven it.
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#216974 - 03/19/12 04:09 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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It is easy, now 10 years on, to forget why we pursued the military option in Afghanistan, how effective that decision was, why, pursuant to international law, we were required to stay. (We were, of course, distracted by a disastrous and unnecessary decision to invade and occupy Iraq, but that is another matter.) Afghanistan was in the grip of the Taliban, a particularly pernicious cancer on the Afghan people. They were the people who were responsible for deliberate destruction of Afghan cultural artifacts, brutal repression of women, outright murder of thousands of Afghanis, and are still responsible for 75% of civilian casualties in 2010 and 80% in 2011. The Taliban and their allies committed massacres against Afghan civilians, denied UN food supplies to 160,000 starving civilians and conducted a policy of scorched earth burning vast areas of fertile land and destroying tens of thousands of homes during their rule from 1996-2001.

But by 2001, that cancer was no longer localized to Afghanistan, but had metastasized to threaten the world. Several Taliban and Al-Qaeda commanders ran a network of human trafficking, abducting women and selling them into sex slavery in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The targets for human trafficking were especially women from the Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara and other ethnic groups in Afghanistan. During one Taliban and Al-Qaeda offensive in 1999 in the Shomali Plains alone, more than 600 women were kidnapped.

Not only had they set up an alliance with al Qaeda, they were actively supporting the network logistically, and giving it place to train - and to plan the attacks of 9/11. After those attacks, they provided safe haven to the al Qaeda. Other methods of addressing this threat were not viable. The only legitimate option was military. This was the purpose for the creation of The International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) established by the United Nations Security Council on 20 December 2001 by Resolution 1386. While U.S. led, and NATO manned, this was a United National operation, and still is.

Under international law, once the Taliban was removed, a duty applies to the people of the area to provide protection. Geneva Conventions Convention IV Relativ...12 August 1949. How long that occupation lasts, of course, is of significant concern. But, it is apparent that Afghanistan is not yet fully capable of self-protection. But, I don't think it is responsible to ignore all of this history simply to support a particular ideological outcome.
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#216976 - 03/19/12 04:30 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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NWP, you know I respect your thinking, opinions and adherence to facts. What you have recited regarding Afghanistan is accurate but hides the truth.

The US and certainly the other nations involved would never have invaded Afghanistan because of any of the reasons cited but for the disaster on 9/11. We have not invaded any other Taliban country (i.e. Pakistan) nor any other nation that has a record of human rights abuses (Uganda, etc).

So the fig leaf was 9/11. Let us examine that a bit. We claim that the perpetrators of 9/11 were trained in Afghanistan. I doubt if that is entirely true since it is likely at least part were trained in Pakistan. But let us assume it is true.

It was not the Taliban who trained them. It was a renegade band of adventurers largely from Saudi Arabia who did the training and enabling. So why subject a sovereign nation to the devastation that ensued? I will not go on to the conspiracy theories or speculation, but it strikes me as overkill and part of the world domination fantasies of the Bush Administration and neocons.

All this is way off topic, however, and whether you and I can ever agree on all of this, I still contend that when you put thousands of young men and women into a caldron of shadows and intrigue that Afghanistan has always been, you put them into a situation that most certainly will produce unstable minds, injured souls and rogue "patriots."

That is a certainty that should have been included in the advance thinking (was there any?) before the invasion. It is a part of war. Especially a war against a people who seem to not want us there and are torn between dangers and powers.

I have no source to link, but my considered opinion from personal experience is that a volunteer military attracts people who are closer to the trigger than the population at large -- people who view force as more appropriate than the population at large -- people who carry an aura of righteousness with their every action.

I think this man was such a person. Yes he pulled the trigger. But we gave him the gun and then scrambled his brain.
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#216978 - 03/19/12 04:44 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

It is easy, now 10 years on, to forget why we pursued the military option in Afghanistan, how effective that decision was, why, pursuant to international law, we were required to stay.

What a bunch of BS!!
I have not forgotten why the human monsters who control the US War Machine went into Afghanistan (and Iraq).

It was to control countries and resources half a world away! And nothing was going to stand in their way -- not morality, not humanity, and definitely NOT INTERNATIONAL LAW!

You had better take a double dose of the "inperviousness to corruption" you are always bragging about!
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#216980 - 03/19/12 04:50 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
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"It was to control countries and resources half a world away! "

Facts not supported on the evidence.

Citations, please.
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#216986 - 03/19/12 05:07 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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But, then, you have never looked at the evidence, have you, Ted?

U.S. Policy on Taliban Influenced by Oil

Quote:
They affirm that until August, the U.S. government saw the Taliban regime "as a source of stability in Central Asia that would enable the construction of an oil pipeline across Central Asia" from the rich oilfields in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, through Afghanistan and Pakistan, to the Indian Ocean. Until now, says the book, "the oil and gas reserves of Central Asia have been controlled by Russia. The Bush government wanted to change all that."
But, confronted with Taliban's refusal to accept U.S. conditions, "this rationale of energy security changed into a military one", the authors claim.
"At one moment during the negotiations, the U.S. representatives told the Taliban, 'either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs,'" Brisard said in an interview in Paris. [This threat was made before September 11th.]
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#216999 - 03/19/12 06:23 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
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Ah yes, numan. Book reviews. I asked you to provide me with a citation and you sent me a book review. What a wonderful source. Not. I would think as many times as I have proven you wrong and ill-informed, as many times as I have asked you for citations and you have ignored me, you would cease trying to treat me as if I were stupid.

Down at the bottom of the page you cited is a ink to "The World Trade Center Demolition and the So-Called War on Terrorism". In two words: conspiracy theory.

One of the highlighted articles on the main page of the web site is "The Murder of Princess Diana". The ambulance driver killed her! That's even better than the butler.

Another highlighted article was about the OKC bombing:

Quote:
According to the March 20, 1996 issue of Strategic Investment newsletter, a classified Pentagon study confirms that the Oklahoma bombing was caused by more than one bomb. A classified report prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma City in April 1995 was caused by five separate bombs. The two experts reached the same conclusion for the same technical reasons. Sources close to the Pentagon study are reported to have said that Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot."

We reported in Freedom Network News at the time that seismograph readouts at the University of Oklahoma indicated more than one blast impulse. Independent ordnance experts, including a Navy Commander, unanimously agreed that a car-bomb with low intensity fertilizer explosives could not have inflicted such extensive damage to the building and that it was highly likely that high-intensity explosives had been wired directly to the columns. Our suspicion then as now is that it was an "inside job." But by whom is the mystery. Strategic Investment reports that the multiple bombings had a Middle Eastern "signature." Others find the whole business to be extremely fishy because of the fact that no ATF or FBI agents were in their offices at the time of the blast [about 9:05 a.m.] — and that evidence pertaining to both Waco and Mena had been stored there.


It seems you have to stoop awfully low to come up with something you think might support your statement. This stuff is nothing but crap, and your use of it as a citation is, at best, ludicrous. Really, guy, if you cannot do better than that, all you have to say is, "I was wrong" or "I retract my statement." This only makes you look even more foolish and disingenuous.
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#217010 - 03/19/12 06:46 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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All I can do is present the evidence that is available. I don't make things up, I don't draw conclusions before the evidence is there. I am persuadable, but I haven't seen anything that was intended to persuade me that I am incorrect.

I agree that we would not have gone into Afghanistan if it were not for the fact that the al Qaeda leadership was holed up there, protected by the Taliban. That the Taliban also operates in Pakistan is immaterial. I agree that some incidents of atrocity are always predictable in any warfare - some of it deliberate (as demonstrated by Ghaddafi, Assad, etc.). I have spent a good deal of my adult life working against that, so I take facile, baseless generalized pronouncements about the military personally. It is easy to reach a conclusion when one is unhindered by facts. I am not going to participate further, as we have, unfortunately, drifted far from the article that our friend Schlack provided to start the thread, and for that I apologize for my part. Hindsight, by the way, is rarely 20/20, as it is almost always distorted by the lens of preconceived notions.
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#217021 - 03/19/12 08:34 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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I just hope that Obama doesn't apologize. I would hate for my bud MaR to be embarrassed.
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#217025 - 03/19/12 08:54 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Ted Remington]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ted Remington
It seems you have to stoop awfully low to come up with something you think might support your statement. This stuff is nothing but crap, and your use of it as a citation is, at best, ludicrous. Really, guy, if you cannot do better than that, all you have to say is, "I was wrong" or "I retract my statement." This only makes you look even more foolish and disingenuous.

What!! I give you links, and then you whine about them! You are just never satisfied, Ted!

I've got plenty of links. Would something from the Congressional Record satisfy your finicky peckishness?

IT'S ALL ABOUT OIL!

Quote:
The second option is to build a pipeline south from Central Asia to the Indian Ocean. One obvious route south would cross Iran, but this is foreclosed for American companies because of U.S. sanctions legislation. The only other possible route is across Afghanistan, which has of course its own unique challenges. The country has been involved in bitter warfare for almost two decades, and is still divided by civil war. From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of the pipeline we have proposed across Afghanistan could not begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders, and our company.

The proposed extension would move gas on to New Delhi, where it would connect with an existing pipeline. As with the proposed Central Asia oil pipeline, CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally recognized Afghanistan Government is in place.

Any more complaints? As your revered former President, George II, trumpeted, Bring 'em on!! I've got about half-a-million links I can give you!


Edited by numan (03/19/12 08:57 PM)
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#217026 - 03/19/12 08:55 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Phil Hoskins]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
...So why subject a sovereign nation to the devastation that ensued?...

Well, UNOCAL and its interest in Central Asia might know a li'l sumthin', sumthin' about this issue AND of course the $1T minerals discovery in 2010 could be why we are now staying. Hmm
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#217031 - 03/19/12 09:01 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Ted Remington]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ted Remington
...Down at the bottom of the page you cited is a ink to "The World Trade Center Demolition and the So-Called War on Terrorism". In two words: conspiracy theory...

Ever see the documentary Loose Change? It's on Netflix - or - do any reading yourself? It's quite amazing what one can learn. Just sayin' smile
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#217040 - 03/19/12 09:27 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Come on guys, can we please at least make soke semblance of connection to the topic? If you want a new thread, make one.
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#217044 - 03/19/12 09:40 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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I already did, NWP :

The Military Mentality
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#217054 - 03/19/12 10:00 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Yup, saw that.
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#217072 - 03/19/12 10:51 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
california rick Offline
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...just want to point out that everywhere else in the world, it is being reported that "up to 20" soldiers participated in the massacre. Only media in the U.S. is saying one soldier:
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#217073 - 03/19/12 10:59 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
2wins Offline
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Wow. Let's see how far that goes. Let's follow it and track it here.
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#217075 - 03/19/12 11:10 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I'm from Missouri.

There is no credibility to any of these sources, and no evidence to support it. All are reporting the same information without substantiation. I have already found 13 sources outside the United States that substantiate the lone shooter scenario. One parlimentarian claims otherwise, but he has a history of an anti-American agenda, and the Taliban has killed 3 times the number of civilians since this incident than this soldier did.

At least take some responsibility for providing legitimate sources. I will provide links when I can get back to my computer.


Edited by NW Ponderer (03/19/12 11:31 PM)
Edit Reason: additional background
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#217076 - 03/19/12 11:19 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
2wins Offline
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And?
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#217078 - 03/19/12 11:48 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Correction: I got the name of the parlimentarian wrong.
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#217079 - 03/20/12 12:24 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: 2wins]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: 2wins
And?

...those evil-doers, the Taliban, have broken off "negotiations" with the U.S. I wonder what was being "negotiated?" I thought it was official U.S. policy not to "negotiate" with terra-ists. Hmm

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#217080 - 03/20/12 12:28 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
At least take some responsibility for providing legitimate sources.

Who's to know that the Pahjwok-Afghan news agency and Siasat News are not "legitimate" enough sources? Not "western" enough to parrot the U.S. narrative, maybe?

Two village, 1.5 kilometers apart, two women raped, 17 people - mostly women and children. Lone wolf.

My Lai, part deux?

Who's really to know? The U.S. refused cooperation. coffee
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#217081 - 03/20/12 12:29 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: california rick]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: california rick
...just want to point out that everywhere else in the world, it is being reported that "up to 20" soldiers participated in the massacre. Only media in the U.S. is saying one soldier:




if 20 US soldiers armed with our most modern weaponry.... go on a rampage... and only are able to kill 16 unarmed sleeping women and children.... it certainly provides some explanation of why we have had such difficulty making progress in Afghanistan...


One does have to wonder at the egregious incapacity of today's soldier when it is so readily accepted as fact that that one soldier would be so obviously incapable of killing 16 people when an untrained wacko with inferior weaponry was able to kill 32 people in West Virginia

Quote:
The Virginia Tech massacre was a school shooting that took place on April 16, 2007, on the campus of Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia, United States. In two separate attacks, approximately two hours apart, the perpetrator, Seung-Hui Cho, killed 32 people and wounded 25 others[1] before committing suicide.
link
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#217082 - 03/20/12 12:45 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: california rick]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: 2wins
And?

...those evil-doers, the Taliban, have broken off "negotiations" with the U.S. I wonder what was being "negotiated?" I thought it was official U.S. policy not to "negotiate" with terra-ists. Hmm



Rick
Apparently you have been so fixated on the idea that there is no difference between democrats and republicans, that you have failed to take note of the following... which also happened to be one of the key issues in that last presidential campaign.

Quote:
US Policy Change: Negotiate with Terrorists;
Obama Seeks Direct Talks with Taliban
link
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#217083 - 03/20/12 12:50 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
california rick Offline
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Thanks for the update on the negotiating with the terra-ists thingy, Ardy. I was more fixated on the Republican War Criminal and the outrage by Democrats, and the Democrat War Criminal, and lack thereof, by Democrats.
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#217085 - 03/20/12 01:05 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: california rick]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: california rick


Who's really to know? The U.S. refused cooperation. coffee



Interesting link that you provided....
it seems only to mention a single soldier... even when it discusses what the villagers told Karzai....

It does seem a bit odd that those villagers that were attacked did not notice the other 19 soldiers participating in that rampage?


........


A further point of interest
I went looking for some confirmation of the 20 soldiers rampage story on Aljezerra.... and did not find the story there... but then AJ has seemed a little western dominated recently


Edited by Ardy (03/20/12 01:21 AM)
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#217086 - 03/20/12 01:19 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: california rick]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Rick if you are going to call Obama a war criminal you need to provide evidence and links.
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#217087 - 03/20/12 01:59 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
california rick Offline
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You're not aware of the C-I-C's actions in Afghanistan and resulting deaths and, of course, Libya and that result.

In regard to Afghanistan, Ralph Nadar says:

Quote:
“Barack Obama is committing the same crimes [as Bush and Cheney], in fact worse ones in Afghanistan. Innocents are being slaughtered, we’re creating more enemies, he’s violating international law, he’s not constitutionally authorized to do what he’s doing, he’s using State secrets, he’s engaging in illegal surveillance, the CIA is running wild without any kind of circumsribed legal standards or disclosure . . . why don’t we say what’s on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached.”

Ralph isn't too right-wing for the deniers, is he? coffee
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#217088 - 03/20/12 02:53 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: california rick]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Ralph Nader is and has long been a nut job.

Obama has not violated international law in any way I know of and broad generalizations are the stock in trade of paulistas and people who don't like Obama and just spout crap as though it meant something.

Try again rick. No pass on this nonsense.
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#217089 - 03/20/12 03:11 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins


Obama has not violated international law in any way I know of


In any case, Violating international law does not by itself make a person a war criminal... starting a war does not make a person a war criminal, and continuing an existing war does not make a person a war criminal. The deaths of "innocent people" during a war also does not make a person a war criminal

The term " war criminal" is typically reserved for leaders who pursue policies which inflict massive avoidable deaths of innocent civilians as part of a policy where the deaths of massive numbers of innocent civilians constitute an intentional component of war strategy
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#217090 - 03/20/12 03:23 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
california rick Offline
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Salon.com says otherwise - they too must be "nutty" because of the inconvenient truth regarding Mr. Obama's "Doctrine?"

Quote:
Muammar Gaddafi’s barbaric murder on October 20, 2011 was a war crime. It violated the Third Geneva Convention of 1929 and it violated the UN Security Council Resolution #1973 of 2011.

...

So when did American presidents and secretaries of state stop caring entirely about international law?

So when did most of America, in fact, stop caring entirely about international law?


The laughable irony is that Mr. Obama is a Constitutional professor.

George W. Bush is a war criminal, albeit one that will never be indicted for his crimes.

Why?

Because he’s being protected by President Barack Obama. Unfortunately for Obama refusing to investigate allegations of torture is a war crime, according to both the Geneva Conventions and the Convention Against Torture. Instead of steering the nation toward the rule of law, Obama has announced “This is a time for reflection, not retribution.”
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#217091 - 03/20/12 05:21 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Schlack Offline
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Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins


Obama has not violated international law


you mean apart from all that stuff he did? Hell forget international law (a complete fiction or at best, victor's justice) he's broken so many US laws.

Would you really like me to list all of this nobel peace prize winners war criminal accomplishments? In this regard you couldn't get a slip of paper between him and bush. The role of imperial administrator demands it.

A simple search of this very forum will dig up ample proof.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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#217092 - 03/20/12 05:22 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
Schlack Offline
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Quote:
Here’s a summary of the Western media discussion of what motivated U.S. Staff Sgt. Robert Bales to allegedly kill 16 Afghans, including 9 children: he was drunk, he was experiencing financial stress, he was passed over for a promotion, he had a traumatic brain injury, he had marital problems, he suffered from the stresses of four tours of duty, he “saw his buddy’s leg blown off the day before the massacre,” etc.

Here’s a summary of the Western media discussion of what motivates Muslims to kill Americans: they are primitive, fanatically religious, hateful Terrorists.


salon
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#217100 - 03/20/12 08:26 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
Ted Remington Offline
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Two villages, 1.5 km apart, and they needed helicopters for transport? Sheeit.

15 to 20 heavily armed US troops and they were only able to kill 16 people? Double sheeit.

15 to 20 troops involved and not one person has leaked any information or has come forward to make an exculpatory statement or to make a deal to avoid a death penalty? Triple sheeit.

15 to 20 US troops involved and not one perimeter guard noticed anything? What are we up to now? Oh, yeah, quadruple sheeit.
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#217123 - 03/20/12 11:50 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Ted Remington]
Ken Condon Offline
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Add this into the pot, and stir:
Quote:
the staff sergeant accused of massacring Afghan civilians, enlisted in the U.S. Army at the same time he was trying to avoid answering allegations he defrauded an elderly Ohio couple of their life savings in a stock fraud, according to federal documents reviewed by ABC News.

Link
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#217156 - 03/20/12 03:06 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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#217167 - 03/20/12 04:29 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Interestingly, Mr. Fisk was a guest on To The Point, with Warren Olney, today. I can't provide a link, as I am not on my computer, but it should be available via NPR.


Edited by NW Ponderer (03/20/12 10:34 PM)
Edit Reason: Corrected name of show
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#217169 - 03/20/12 04:47 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Also, CBC, citing an Afghan source, reports "Video confirms lone shooter in Afghan civilian massacre." a) not a US newspaper, b) not a US source, c) consistent with common sense and previous reporting, d) independently verifiable. By the way, even the previous reporting about "15-20 soldiers" noted that this was probably based upon witnesses to the subsequent investigation, not to the attack, which makes more sense, since the Afghan investigators were attacked, one killed and 2 wounded in the immediate aftermath.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217185 - 03/20/12 07:47 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Ted Remington]
Ardy Online   content
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Registered: 12/22/05
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Originally Posted By: Ted Remington

15 to 20 troops involved and not one person has leaked any information or has come forward to make an exculpatory statement or to make a deal to avoid a death penalty? Triple sheeit.





Yeah, if you do the math, it would seem almost certain that there would be at least one person who killed no one (in the fantasy version of this incident).... if I were that person, I would want to make a deal that made that clear ASAP
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#217187 - 03/20/12 07:57 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Also, CBC, citing an Afghan source, reports "Video confirms lone shooter in Afghan civilian massacre." a) not a US newspaper, b) not a US source, c) consistent with common sense and previous reporting, d) independently verifiable. By the way, even the previous reporting about "15-20 soldiers" noted that this was probably based upon witnesses to the subsequent investigation, not to the attack, which makes more sense, since the Afghan investigators were attacked, one killed and 2 wounded in the immediate aftermath.


And beyond all of that, we might well look to a regional source that has never felt constrained to stick to the US line.... aljazeera. If there was some substance to the alternate version of this story, one would certainly expect aljazeera to be covering the shxt out of that angle..... instead you see nothing at all.... which seems very peculiar if one is starting with the assumption that the alternate story is mostly... or even partly true.
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#217190 - 03/20/12 08:15 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
numan Offline
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Boy, are you guys out of date!! The BBC, CBC, Al Jazeera have all been pretty well subverted by now. None of them will venture very far beyond what the American Brainwashing Machine spews out.

You would be better off watching or listening to America's "Hour of Truth," Amy Goodman's Democracy Now.
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#217195 - 03/20/12 08:47 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: numan]
Ken Condon Offline
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Quote:
The BBC, CBC, Al Jazeera have all been pretty well subverted by now. None of them will venture very far beyond what the American Brainwashing Machine spews out.

Perhaps if “we” just had numan collating and verifying all of our delivered information we would be best served. Aside from the “Hour of Truth”. Can’t say as I have watched that program but it does have a certain gospel ring of truth to its name.
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#217218 - 03/20/12 10:12 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I love that. If the source doesn't report what you want it to report, it has been "subverted." Odd logic, that.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217221 - 03/20/12 10:25 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I love that. If the source doesn't report what you want it to report, it has been "subverted." Odd logic, that.



For me, that seals the case with Numan... his position is clear, there is really no basis for discussion...
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#217234 - 03/21/12 12:07 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Ken Condon]
california rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Originally Posted By: Ken Hill
Add this into the pot, and stir:
Quote:
the staff sergeant accused of massacring Afghan civilians, enlisted in the U.S. Army at the same time he was trying to avoid answering allegations he defrauded an elderly Ohio couple of their life savings in a stock fraud, according to federal documents reviewed by ABC News.

Link

Oh that's right - he was a former stock broker. Welp, during the Bush years, the military was letting convicted felons in because not enough moral people were signing up.
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#217240 - 03/21/12 12:40 AM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: california rick]
Ken Condon Offline
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Quote:
he was a former stock broker

And allegedly going for broke. At least for his clients. Why can’t I get in on that gig?…. kidding…..
But it never ceases to amaze me how anyone can “succeed” at that game. Promise above average returns and you've got it made. Allegedly. And that story repeats itself ad infinitum.
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#217276 - 03/21/12 12:48 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: NW Ponderer]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
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Originally Posted By: numan
Boy, are you guys out of date!! The BBC, CBC, Al Jazeera have all been pretty well subverted by now. None of them will venture very far beyond what the American Brainwashing Machine spews out.

You would be better off watching or listening to America's "Hour of Truth," Amy Goodman's Democracy Now.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I love that. If the source doesn't report what you want it to report, it has been "subverted." Odd logic, that.

As usual, NWP, your wit is scintillating and original. However, the fact remains that none of the above go very far beyond the circus ring of Official Global Propaganda, while Amy Goodman's Democracy Now does report facts which these others are too scared to touch (not that I think Democracy Now is sufficiently hard knuckled, of course).
Anyone who thinks Al Jazeera is out of the official Propaganda Loop is, of course, living in La-La Land. They are there simply to get the hard-core propaganda to market segments which are not reached by other means -- something like National Public Radio in the USA.
I remember seeing an interview with a chief editor of Al Jazeera in which he enthusiastically proclaimed that his dream was to become an editor in the USA! (Obviously, it must be for the money and the perks -- I can't imagine any other reason he would want to live there)
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#217289 - 03/21/12 02:14 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: Schlack]
2wins Offline
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numan? is that you? i thought i heard something? oh, never mind.
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#217297 - 03/21/12 03:25 PM Re: Madness is not the reason for this massacre [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Originally Posted By: numan
...I can't imagine any other reason he would want to live there)
oh ye of miniscule imagination...
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