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#217265 - 03/21/12 11:14 AM NRA tests a pet theory
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
The NRA theory that people should be able to use their guns just because they think they are being assaulted has been shown to have a serious flaw. The NRA lobbied to have the self-defense law passed in Florida as a constitutional thing. Unfortunately, one of their own has now stripped an innocent young man of all of his constitutional rights.

Apparently, when an Amygdaloid is packing some cold iron courage, his imagination can take over and cause him to self defend against kids with Skittles who are trying to run away from him.

Wonder how the NRA will spin this one. The Oopsie! defense?
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#217273 - 03/21/12 12:18 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Irked Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3320
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
Better to be safe than sorry. Mr Zimmerman was performing his duty. Mr Zimmerman was armed and had every reason to believe the perpetrator was armed. One can hardly expect Mr Zimmerman to wait around while the perpetrator pulls out his gun and shoots, can one? No Zimmerman did the only rational thing he possibly could. The only person to blame here is the perpetrator - he should've stayed home where he belonged and none of this would have happened. Tragic for Mr Zimmerman to have to go through all this.
_________________________
How eager they are to be slaves - Tiberus Caesar

Coulda tripped out easy, but I've changed my ways - Donovan

I consider myself to be a laid back type and quite tolerant on most issues - AB Breivik

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#217286 - 03/21/12 01:30 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Once again Florida hits the Stupid News.
Officers did not even arrest the shooter.
Apparently in many states it is okay for any citizen to kill someone if you suspect they may be up to something suspicious.
Anywhere, on public or private property.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#217288 - 03/21/12 01:50 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Greger]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Originally Posted By: Greger

Apparently in many states it is okay for any citizen to kill someone if you suspect they may be up to something suspicious.
Anywhere, on public or private property.

Ah, American Liberty!! Ain't it grand!!

The same doctrine which applied in Iraq and Afghanistan, I presume? · · wink


Edited by numan (03/21/12 01:51 PM)
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#217302 - 03/21/12 04:39 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
If they had found any kind of weapon on the kid we would not be having this conversation, especially if the weapon fell where he lay dying, not safely tucked away in a back pocket where this idiot would never have seen it.

Shooter shoots armed teen, weapon found clutched in his grip, powder residue and signs of recent discharge, stuff like that.

But the kid was armed only with a can of iced tea and some candy, he has a good school record, lots of friends to vouch for his personality, values and outlook on life, he had plans for the future and the smarts and moxy to get there.

This wasn't some sullen gang banging thug, this was a good kid who's only crime was being the wrong color and I hope this shooter gets fried for his actions.

I like to THINK I support Stand Your Ground style laws but I now find I am feeling some reservations. The situation has to reflect some evidence of potential wrongdoing because in the case of a "stand your ground" defense it is difficult or even impossible to prove that the person approaching an armed citizen had demonstrated criminal intent, even if they happened to be armed themselves.

This kind of law differs from a Castle Doctrine because the out of doors is not the same as your private home. Members of the public are all around, people you know and people you don't know.

And this is no longer The Wild West, it's a diverse urban centric industrial nation filled to overflowing with modern technology, stresses of everyday modern life and numerous interactions with persons of every known walk of life.

And the worst part is, even the Wild West had more common sense because there was an unwritten and universally accepted code that said a man had a right to argue with another man without expectation of getting shot.

Everyone knew that everyone else was probably armed, too.
The reason everyone didn't shoot each other to extinction is because cooler heads prevailed and demanded that some semblance of rationality precede the final decision to send someone to their dirt nap and the consequences for shooters doing so irrationally were often as severe as the fate of the victim, usually a hanging was involved.

You didn't shoot a man in the back, you didn't shoot an unarmed man, and you didn't lie in wait either and pursue them surreptitiously while ignoring the demand of law enforcement to BACK DOWN.

Just that last issue itself should have been grounds for this man's arrest and a charge of manslaughter....a police dispatcher acting on authority advised against further pursuit so police could take over and this man decided he knew better, and instead of leaving the scene, took it upon himself to play cop.

Stand Your Ground applies mostly to shopkeepers, people who work alone in deserted areas, persons entering or leaving their own private property or their cars.

It absolutely DOES NOT in ANY way apply to a Neighborhood Watch vigilante who is stalking someone in the dark of night and who is itching for an unsolicited confrontation.

And unless we can instill enough common sense, which apparently is in doubt, then maybe we do need to revert to some sort of "duty to retreat" philosophy.

Once a person demonstrates that they have attempted to retreat from a confrontation, if a confrontation ensues and they are in a place with a reasonable expectation of safety or in their private home or business, then all bets are off and the suspect is fair game.

But this is clearly a predator situation and the young man became prey, unarmed and innocent prey at that.

And it's time to lock up the predator before he does it again.

_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#217305 - 03/21/12 05:25 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
Even the sponsors of the legislation in Florida have come out against this application of their law. It was, as one put it, "stand your ground" not "pursue and confront." As soon as Mr. Zimmerman got out of his car, he became the aggressor. He outweighed the kid by 100 lbs, and his ego was bigger than that. He wanted to be a "hero, " took criminal justice classes (which clearly didn't take), bought a gun, carried a concealed weapon, and was itching for a confrontation. This, by the way, is not the first time this law has been abused this way. The officer who let Zimmerman leave the scene should be fired. Even if everythimg he said were true (and it wasn't), he should have been taken into custody. But, the kid was black. End of story.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217309 - 03/21/12 05:38 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Agreed...scratch my surface and I am forced to admit that I cannot in good conscience support the way the present law is written.

Oh sure, let's say you're ne-er do well approaching my car as I am getting myself and my camera gear stuffed back in for the ride home.
You're babbling something about "I need to borrow your car" and your right hand is headed toward your waistband.

Sorry, I might have to dive into the glove box and present you with the business end of a .38 revolver.
Back off buddy, you're not borrowing anything around here, go find another victim.

Say you're knocking on my door at 3 AM and I know for a fact that my kids are home already and my wife's next to me in bed. I'm grabbing a piece and looking at the security camera and if you don't look familiar, my door will not be open to you. Talk to the camera my friend.
Jiggle that doorknob a little too much and you're going to make me want that .38
Try breaking down the door or heading for a convenient window and it's game on.

Say I am closing up shop with a my little bag which is headed for the bank in the morning.
Stay away from me if you have even a lick of common sense. I'm a shopkeeper and you're not getting that little bag. I definitely will shoot you if you ignore my instruction to "kindly get out of my face so I can go home". I went through too much crap today just to hand it over to some nimrod.

Now...say you're some kid wandering down a dark street in my neighborhood and you "look suspicious".

Hello? 9-1-1? There's a suspicious looking guy wandering around in my neighborhood and I don't know who he is.
What's that? You want me to go down a couple blocks and meet the patrol car so I can give a description? Yup no problem, I am outta here, here's what he looks like so you can pass it on before I see the officers. I am in a white Kia Sportage with no spare tire on the back...yeah the "neighborhood watch" guy, you know me.

See you in a couple, thanks!



_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#217317 - 03/21/12 07:55 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I'm not against some version of Stand Your Ground either, but the flip side should be if you make a stupid mistake you will be held responsible. To the full extent of the law.

Isn't that what Reeps want, too, more personal responsibility?
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#217322 - 03/21/12 08:22 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Hey LT its either going to be a "good " shooting or the shooter is going to get prosecuted. Every year there's a lot "doubtful" shootings by LEOs, too ! What I'd like to see is everyone shut up and let the Sanford PD do its thing sans public/political/media pressure(s) ! The present situation is akin to "The Oxbow Incident" and a "lynch mob" mania ! >Mech

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#217327 - 03/21/12 08:43 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Greger]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Hmm.....Greger......NIce to see you have such a vast respect for the law and constitutional processes ! If you don't like FL law, or how its enforced, you're free not to visit ! Its "early days" in this case and the media, not to mention the usual tribe of "racism" touters are hard at work "convicting the shooter" before the case goes to the GJ !

Apparently the investigating officers) didn't feel they had sufficient "probable cause" to detain the shooter. Doesn't mean he's going to skate on a bogus shooting, either ! But then it might, since all the national press coverage and political grandstanding pretty much ensures there's no venue for him to get a "fair trial" ! >Mech

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#217332 - 03/21/12 09:01 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
That doesn't really deserve an answer Mech. The law was so stupid even its sponsors are rejecting it.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#217333 - 03/21/12 09:02 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Hmm.....Greger......NIce to see you have such a vast respect for the law and constitutional processes ! If you don't like FL law, or how its enforced, you're free not to visit !

Actually, Mech, as far as I know, Greger was born, bred, and has lived in Florida all of his life. As for Zimmerman, he was not only detained, but he was also handcuffed and taken in for questioning. But, you do make a good point in suggesting that more facts are needed before the fellow is hung out to dry by popular opinion.
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#217334 - 03/21/12 09:13 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7614
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Hmm.....Greger......NIce to see you have such a vast respect for the law and constitutional processes ! If you don't like FL law, or how its enforced, you're free not to visit ! Its "early days" in this case and the media, not to mention the usual tribe of "racism" touters are hard at work "convicting the shooter" before the case goes to the GJ !

Apparently the investigating officers) didn't feel they had sufficient "probable cause" to detain the shooter. Doesn't mean he's going to skate on a bogus shooting, either ! But then it might, since all the national press coverage and political grandstanding pretty much ensures there's no venue for him to get a "fair trial" ! >Mech
well like iss said, greger is born and bred right there in florida, and i believe right down the road from the shooting if i am not mistaken. contempt prior to investigation much?
secondly, one can and will argue that if not for the press this thing could well get shoved off to the side. folks like you like to bellyache about the press, yet it is my very direct experience that if not for the press there's plenty that would go unchecked. frankly, if you don't like the press then you're welcome to stop watching fox, or reading the washington times.
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#217337 - 03/21/12 09:20 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: 2wins]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20594
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Very interesting for calls to reserve judgment until facts are known -- wouldn't it be great if the same were accorded for other events? That would pretty much shut mechanic and issodhos down 100% it seems to me.

There is no question there would be no investigation if not for public and press insistence.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#217338 - 03/21/12 09:24 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36066
Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...the kid was armed only with a can of iced tea and some candy, he has a good school record, lots of friends to vouch for his personality, values and outlook on life...this is clearly a predator situation and the young man became prey, unarmed and innocent prey at that.

Turns out that Zimmerman has a long history of making false police reports as well.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#217339 - 03/21/12 09:43 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: california rick]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Long history of false reports? I cannot find that in the article. There is a reference from an anonymous source down in the comments on the blog you cited, but nothing substantive that I can see. I think you need to take a careful look at altering your statement.
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Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#217342 - 03/21/12 09:50 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36066
Loc: Bay Area, California
Ted, now don't go getting your panties in a bunch: read and weep

Quote:
In the months leading up to the shooting, Zimmerman had called police numerous times to report incidents
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#217344 - 03/21/12 09:55 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Hey LT its either going to be a "good " shooting or the shooter is going to get prosecuted. Every year there's a lot "doubtful" shootings by LEOs, too ! What I'd like to see is everyone shut up and let the Sanford PD do its thing sans public/political/media pressure(s) ! The present situation is akin to "The Oxbow Incident" and a "lynch mob" mania ! >Mech

Ah, another NonCon in support of less personal responsibility. GOP ROT (Grand Ol' Party Rule of the Opposite Thing).

Mech, I was commenting on the stupid law and the way the po-leece are interpreting it, not lynching the idiot. No one is contesting that he shot the Skittles Armed kid. Seems like potential manslaughter, or murder. So you advocate for letting him go because he claims he felt threatened? Hope you don't have any enemies when you are vacationing in Florida.
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#217345 - 03/21/12 09:56 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: issodhos]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
There may be some question as to the accuracy of the article you linked to, rick.

It says:
Quote:
Oh, and guess the races of the parties. Just take a shot in the dark.

The big problem here — aside from the racist killing of an unarmed minor ...

...snip...

In a racist society, you can find a racist person who “reasonably believes” that the existence of a black kid is dangerous, and that a confrontation with a black kid — even if the white adult started it — is life-threatening.


But, the Washington Post says :
Quote:
In a letter to the Orlando Sentinel, Zimmerman’s father defended his son, saying the portrait in the media is “extremely misleading.” The letter reads, in part:

“George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever.... The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth...


I am not all that trusting of the Washington Post, but I think it is probably more reliable than what appears to be an advocacy site.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#217346 - 03/21/12 09:57 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20594
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#217352 - 03/21/12 10:08 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Very interesting for calls to reserve judgment until facts are known -- wouldn't it be great if the same were accorded for other events? That would pretty much shut mechanic and issodhos down 100% it seems to me.


Feel free to -- how have you worded it in the past -- oh, "man up" and support this B.S. by show examples of me rushing to judgement without sufficient information on an issue. Could you also explain what your comment has to do with the topic? Take your time. coffee


Edited by issodhos (03/21/12 10:09 PM)
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#217353 - 03/21/12 10:09 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20594
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Why limit this to gun issues? is that the only instance to reserve judgment? Piffle
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#217354 - 03/21/12 10:09 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36066
Loc: Bay Area, California
Jim Hammer, ex-San Francisco DA was on Bay Area talk radio today and he said "400 hundred" and he has the inside info being in that biz and all...
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#217355 - 03/21/12 10:13 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36066
Loc: Bay Area, California
Why did the Sanford, FL po'po' body tag the toe as John Doe when the kid was just on his cell phone?

Where's the cell phone? Why didn't the po'po' trace the phone to who owned it? Cracker police.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#217364 - 03/21/12 10:39 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Hey LT its either going to be a "good " shooting or the shooter is going to get prosecuted. Every year there's a lot "doubtful" shootings by LEOs, too ! What I'd like to see is everyone shut up and let the Sanford PD do its thing sans public/political/media pressure(s) ! The present situation is akin to "The Oxbow Incident" and a "lynch mob" mania ! >Mech


Sorry Mech but we CAN'T shut up because Sanford has SO FAR made it quite clear that they have NO INTENTION of "doing their job".
If you can't see that then we have nothing more to talk about because you're dealing with some fictional version of Sanford that exists on another planet.

The one here on Earth, in Florida, is pretending no law was broken, no evil was done and no shooters need be arrested.

And they're just sorta hoping that Mom will finally eat and forget that she lost a son.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

Top
#217365 - 03/21/12 10:40 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Screw it, we don't have anything more to talk about Mech...iggy button engaged.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

Top
#217366 - 03/21/12 10:47 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
Iss, I'm interested in the source you used to indicate Zimmerman was detained. I have not found that in any article I've read. Thanks.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#217367 - 03/21/12 10:55 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Sanford Commission Votes No Confidence in Police Chief


Quote:
"When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self-defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony," the chief responded. "By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time."




Specifically WHAT circumstances? The exploding cyanide Skittles or the Bunker Buster can of iced tea?

Did Trayvon the terrorist have an IED embedded in his cell phone?
Is that why it hasn't turned up yet?

I guarantee you ONE circumstance and that's this:

Trayvon's family members will not be able to shoot Zimmerman and get away with a claim of self-defense despite the fact that they have every reason to believe that Zimmerman would pose a threat to their physical safety if he is anywhere in sight of any of them, not the other way around.

After all, at this juncture the score lies at

Zimmerman 1
Martin 0
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

Top
#217371 - 03/21/12 11:13 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
If your family name is Martin and you're being approached by Zimmerman, and you are unarmed, what do you think your initial reaction is going to be, given "the circumstances"?
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

Top
#217373 - 03/21/12 11:16 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
I think I found the same information as you, Jeff. Zimmerman was not arrested or detained.
Quote:
On why Zimmerman wasn't arrested or detained after the shooting:

When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time...If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

Lee then goes on to cite Florida's "stand your ground" law as the reason Zimmerman could not be arrested. That wouldn't however, explain why even a law-abiding gun-owner who committed a purportedly justifiable homicide wouldn't have been administered drug and alcohol examinations as a matter of procedure.
The Trayvon Martin Killing, Explained - Mother Jones. The mug shot being distributed on news outlets was apparently from his 2005 arrest for assaulting a police officer. George Zimmerman Unprotected By Self-Defense Law in Trayvon Martin Killing, Florida Lawmakers Say
Quote:
Police said that without evidence proving that Zimmerman attacked Martin first, they had no grounds to charge him with a crime.

Dennis Baxley, a Republican state representative and co-author of the 2005 self-defense law, said Zimmerman negated his ability to claim immunity under the law by chasing Martin.

"This law is for innocent, law-abiding citizens who are under attack by a perpetrator," Baxley told The Huffington Post. "Anyone who is out pursuing and confronting people is not protected by this statute."

"I think they need to go back and read the statute," Baxley said, referring to the Sanford Police Department.

Former Republican State Sen. Durell Peadon, another co-author of the law, said Zimmerman "has no protection under my law."
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#217375 - 03/21/12 11:19 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
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I think we all need to see the "evidence" and explore the "circumstances" a little more because according to the taped phone call from Zimmerman the dispatcher told him NOT to follow Martin, but instead to hold back, get out of the immediate area and meet the patrol car.

He did nothing of the kind. Instead he went into "pursuit mode".
What other circumstances are there?
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#217378 - 03/21/12 11:32 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: NW Ponderer]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Iss, I'm interested in the source you used to indicate Zimmerman was detained. I have not found that in any article I've read. Thanks.


Quote:
Zimmerman was handcuffed after police arrived and taken into custody for questioning, but was released by police without being charged. Police have interviewed Zimmerman twice since then.
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#217380 - 03/21/12 11:41 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: issodhos]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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No he asked for a source
_________________________
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#217384 - 03/22/12 12:01 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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That is the only reference I have seen anywhere indicating he was handcuffed. It makes me wonder where that information came from, because the poli ce chief indicated he had not been detained. He was not, by the way, transported from the scene. And when and how did they interview him?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217385 - 03/22/12 12:06 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Okay, found another source saying he was taken into custody.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217388 - 03/22/12 12:56 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Ah, apparently "custody" meant a patrol car. It appears he was not transported from the scene.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217391 - 03/22/12 01:30 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: issodhos]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Issad :

I'll readily admit my error regarding Greger's residency ! Doesn't change my opinion about the lynch mob mentality prevailing across the nation regarding this case ! (Or my low opinion of the blood-thirsty posters on this thread, either.) So y'all go "jine in " with ilk of Jesses Jackson and Al Sharpton and confuse this case to the point where it can't be honestly and legally tried ! >Mech

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#217398 - 03/22/12 06:29 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: california rick]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Originally Posted By: california rick
Ted, now don't go getting your panties in a bunch: read and weep

Quote:
In the months leading up to the shooting, Zimmerman had called police numerous times to report incidents


I cannot find that quote where you cited, Rick.
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Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#217400 - 03/22/12 08:14 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
2wins Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Issad :

I'll readily admit my error regarding Greger's residency ! Doesn't change my opinion about the lynch mob mentality prevailing across the nation regarding this case ! (Or my low opinion of the blood-thirsty posters on this thread, either.) So y'all go "jine in " with ilk of Jesses Jackson and Al Sharpton and confuse this case to the point where it can't be honestly and legally tried ! >Mech
hmmm. welp, there are other sandboxes you can play in, if you like.
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#217401 - 03/22/12 08:19 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
...(Or my low opinion of the blood-thirsty posters on this thread, either.)... confuse this case to the point where it can't be honestly and legally tried ! >Mech

Really, Mechy? Who on this site is bloodthirsty and wanting to confuse the case to where it can't be legally tried?

Have you not understood that the issue is there is no case, as determined by the Sanford police department, due to their interpretation of the "stand your ground" law?

Just for clarification, what process do you think would be (have been) appropriate for the conduct of this "case"? Let's start with this: given that Zimmerman apparently shot someone, should he have been arrested and an investigation conducted?
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#217405 - 03/22/12 09:11 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
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Loc: Downey, California
The authors of the Stand Your Ground law themselves are saying that Zimmerman does not qualify as having "stood his ground" because he gave up that right the moment he PURSUED the suspect and got into a confrontation with him.

If people cannot get that then they don't understand the difference between defense and offense.
No wonder we're so eager to start wars with everyone, even preemptive wars.

In fact, Zimmerman appears to be channeling his own personal "Bush Doctrine", doesn't he?
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

Top
#217475 - 03/22/12 05:59 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
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Loc: Downey, California
Surrender your weapons to the Police Chief of Sanford, FL



CAMPAIGN LINK

Send A BAG OF SKITTLES to:

Chief Bill Lee
Sanford Police Station
815 West 13th Street
Sanford, Fl 32771
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

Top
#217493 - 03/22/12 08:26 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Issad :

I'll readily admit my error regarding Greger's residency ! Doesn't change my opinion about the lynch mob mentality prevailing across the nation regarding this case ! (Or my low opinion of the blood-thirsty posters on this thread, either.) So y'all go "jine in " with ilk of Jesses Jackson and Al Sharpton and confuse this case to the point where it can't be honestly and legally tried ! >Mech

Apparently, you missed the second part of my posting to you, Mech. I also wrote, "But, you do make a good point in suggesting that more facts are needed before the fellow is hung out to dry by popular opinion." by the way, If you look at his posts above, NW seems to be doing just that. coffee
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#217495 - 03/22/12 08:53 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
california rick Offline
Member
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Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...Zimmerman does not qualify as having "stood his ground" because he gave up that right the moment he PURSUED the suspect and got into a confrontation with him.

Odd that someone fearing for his life, is stalking someone by car.

Very odd. coffee
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#217496 - 03/22/12 08:55 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
california rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

Dude stepped down today; albeit temporarily.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#217516 - 03/23/12 12:22 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: california rick]
california rick Offline
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Loc: Bay Area, California
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...Zimmerman does not qualify as having "stood his ground" because he gave up that right the moment he PURSUED the suspect and got into a confrontation with him.

Odd that someone fearing for his life, is stalking someone by car.

Very odd. coffee


...even odder: Then, going out to confront the person whom he "fears."

Oh! Such a 'victim' that Zimmerman is! violin


_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#217519 - 03/23/12 12:56 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: california rick]
Scoutgal Offline
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Registered: 01/23/01
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Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...Zimmerman does not qualify as having "stood his ground" because he gave up that right the moment he PURSUED the suspect and got into a confrontation with him.

Odd that someone fearing for his life, is stalking someone by car.

Very odd. coffee


...even odder: Then, going out to confront the person whom he "fears."

Oh! Such a 'victim' that Zimmerman is! violin


I have heard that Zimmerman called the police, and was told specifically NOT to confront the victim. Zimmerman totally ignored that, and got out of his car and pursued Trayvon. That scared Trayvon(I know I'd be scared if someone started to chase me for no reason), and then shot him in the back. Everything(including the police chief's actions) smells to high Heaven about this.
_________________________
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Save your breath-You may need it to blow up your date.





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#217522 - 03/23/12 01:08 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Scoutgal]
Scoutgal Offline
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Registered: 01/23/01
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Black residents in Florida city say they're often harassed by police

Quote:
Reporting from Sanford, Fla.—
The slaying of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed, black 17-year-old, by a neighborhood watch volunteer has prompted a federal investigation and, on Thursday, the temporary ouster of the city's police chief.

To many black residents of Sanford, the escalating national anger over how local police have handled the case reflects years of tension and frustration over their treatment by authorities.

Murray Jess, for one, can't shake the memory of an evening two years ago, as he drove through Sanford at dusk, heading home after attending an art show with his fiance and his 14-year-old nephew.


There is now a special prosecutor appointed by Gov. Rick Scott of Florida.
_________________________
milk and Girl Scout cookies ;-)

Save your breath-You may need it to blow up your date.





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#217546 - 03/23/12 12:58 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
Iss, I'm going to ask you nicely to withdraw your personal and completely unsupported attack in the thread above. I even asked you for a cite that indicated Zimmerman had been arrested, because I had not seen one. Based upon your claim, I dug deeper and found contemporaneous reports that he had been placed in the back of the patrol car and reported that. Those reports also indicated that he was released at the scene by the responding officer. All I have ever done is expressed an opinion based on the evidence available at the time. It seems unfortunate to me that the Sanford police department has not done the same. I don't even think the the Chief should have had to step down, as he has hardly been in place long enough to have had much influence on how the investigation - or lack thereof - has been conducted; unless of course Zimmerman was released on his say-so.

I think, my friend, you have developed a personal grudge against me, and it has become apparent in a number of threads, of late. I may hage reacted to some of your posting behavior, which has been less than stellar.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217570 - 03/23/12 03:32 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: NW Ponderer]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
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'
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

I think, my friend, you have developed a personal grudge against me....

Well, it takes one to know one.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#217571 - 03/23/12 03:41 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: issodhos]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Originally Posted By: issodhos
I also wrote, "But, you do make a good point in suggesting that more facts are needed before the fellow is hung out to dry by popular opinion."

I agree with you, Issodhos. My gut reaction is to want to throw Zimmermann over a cliff into a sea of excrement, but my intellectual drive to avoid a "rush to judgment" (because that velocity is so quintessentially American?) is stronger.

First, to the best of our ability, we should gather all the facts -- then judge. Moreover, because of all the emotional muddle this case has generated, it may, in fact, prevent a proper trial and permit the perpetrator to avoid just punishment.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#217572 - 03/23/12 03:47 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Scoutgal]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
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'
Originally Posted By: Scoutgal

There is now a special prosecutor appointed by Gov. Rick Scott of Florida.

UH-OH !!

That is usually the infallible sign that truth is going to be covered up.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#217579 - 03/23/12 05:42 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: NW Ponderer]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Iss, I'm going to ask you nicely to withdraw your personal and completely unsupported attack in the thread above.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about, NW. The only posting I have made that referenced you was one in which I gave you a tip-of-the-hat for seeking to find out more about what happened.
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#217580 - 03/23/12 05:52 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: issodhos]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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My apologies, Issodhos, I read the statement
Originally Posted By: Issodhos
I also wrote, "But, you do make a good point in suggesting that more facts are needed before the fellow is hung out to dry by popular opinion." by the way, If you look at his posts above, NW seems to be doing just that. coffee
Issodhos
as that I was hanging him out to dry, not that I was searching out more info. I sincerely regret my outburst. I've been too quick to temper of late, and that is not like me.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#217582 - 03/23/12 06:08 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
LT, I wonder why there isn't a thread here regarding the mayhem - 10 dead, 46 wounded - in "SYG-Free" Chicago last week ? Where's the MSM "'blitz" on the Windy City wars ? Why isn't the President commenting on some possible "sons" there ?

Instead we have the makings of another Ox-Bow Incident fueled by the rantings of race-baiting opportunistic shysters, the usual acronymic conglomeration of anti gun orgs - all of which, BTW, have apparently declined to respond to questions from conservative members of the firearms community - compounded by the knee-jerk reactions of the lame stream media. Even our President (apparently having leaned nothing from the Brooks incident ) has weighed in with his patented inane commentary !

All of this pretty much guarantees the shooter can't be tried anywhere ! And perhaps that is the "objective" ! An administration teetering on the brink having its chief LEO being indicted for contempt, (with possible criminal proceedings for key players across the gamut of enforcement agencies ) mist be in desperate need of a diversion . Even better one involving the possible misuse of a firearm. Now only if the Oval Office/MSM/Hoplophobes were as outraged over some 300 Mexican national's deaths ! >Mech

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#217586 - 03/23/12 06:19 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
LT, I wonder why there isn't a thread here regarding the mayhem - 10 dead, 46 wounded - in "SYG-Free" Chicago last week ? Where's the MSM "'blitz" on the Windy City wars ? Why isn't the President commenting on some possible "sons" there ?

Instead we have the makings of another Ox-Bow Incident fueled by the rantings of race-baiting opportunistic shysters, the usual acronymic conglomeration of anti gun orgs - all of which, BTW, have apparently declined to respond to questions from conservative members of the firearms community - compounded by the knee-jerk reactions of the lame stream media. Even our President (apparently having leaned nothing from the Brooks incident ) has weighed in with his patented inane commentary !

All of this pretty much guarantees the shooter can't be tried anywhere ! And perhaps that is the "objective" ! An administration teetering on the brink having its chief LEO being indicted for contempt, (with possible criminal proceedings for key players across the gamut of enforcement agencies ) mist be in desperate need of a diversion . Even better one involving the possible misuse of a firearm. Now only if the Oval Office/MSM/Hoplophobes were as outraged over some 300 Mexican national's deaths ! >Mech

Went right over my head. Are you posting in Ukrainian and then having the computer translate into English? Hmm
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#217594 - 03/23/12 07:03 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Hoplophobes ...

Good ol' Cooper. I do miss his "corner". :-)
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#217600 - 03/23/12 07:42 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
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Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the shyster after all?
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#217610 - 03/23/12 09:12 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7614
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
LT, I wonder why there isn't a thread here regarding the mayhem - 10 dead, 46 wounded - in "SYG-Free" Chicago last week ? Where's the MSM "'blitz" on the Windy City wars ? Why isn't the President commenting on some possible "sons" there ?

Instead we have the makings of another Ox-Bow Incident fueled by the rantings of race-baiting opportunistic shysters, the usual acronymic conglomeration of anti gun orgs - all of which, BTW, have apparently declined to respond to questions from conservative members of the firearms community - compounded by the knee-jerk reactions of the lame stream media. Even our President (apparently having leaned nothing from the Brooks incident ) has weighed in with his patented inane commentary !

All of this pretty much guarantees the shooter can't be tried anywhere ! And perhaps that is the "objective" ! An administration teetering on the brink having its chief LEO being indicted for contempt, (with possible criminal proceedings for key players across the gamut of enforcement agencies ) mist be in desperate need of a diversion . Even better one involving the possible misuse of a firearm. Now only if the Oval Office/MSM/Hoplophobes were as outraged over some 300 Mexican national's deaths ! >Mech

Went right over my head. Are you posting in Ukrainian and then having the computer translate into English? Hmm
thank you. i was sensing gibberish as well. typically the fall for one who has no real arguement to stand on.
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#217612 - 03/23/12 09:18 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
I think, LT, going "over" your head implies a quality that isn't readily apparent. Talking past, nonsequiturial, perhaps. Over? Don't think so.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#217731 - 03/24/12 04:26 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
LT, I wonder why there isn't a thread here regarding the mayhem - 10 dead, 46 wounded - in "SYG-Free" Chicago last week ? Where's the MSM "'blitz" on the Windy City wars ? Why isn't the President commenting on some possible "sons" there ?

Instead we have the makings of another Ox-Bow Incident fueled by the rantings of race-baiting opportunistic shysters, the usual acronymic conglomeration of anti gun orgs - all of which, BTW, have apparently declined to respond to questions from conservative members of the firearms community - compounded by the knee-jerk reactions of the lame stream media. Even our President (apparently having leaned nothing from the Brooks incident ) has weighed in with his patented inane commentary !

All of this pretty much guarantees the shooter can't be tried anywhere ! And perhaps that is the "objective" ! An administration teetering on the brink having its chief LEO being indicted for contempt, (with possible criminal proceedings for key players across the gamut of enforcement agencies ) mist be in desperate need of a diversion . Even better one involving the possible misuse of a firearm. Now only if the Oval Office/MSM/Hoplophobes were as outraged over some 300 Mexican national's deaths ! >Mech

Went right over my head. Are you posting in Ukrainian and then having the computer translate into English? Hmm


I can easily see why it would LT ! >Mech

Top
#217733 - 03/24/12 04:46 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
I think, Mech, you missed the point. OR, maybe there wasn't a point to your last post. What LT was saying, ever so politely, is that your last post made no sense. It lacked those things we have come to expect - logical coherence, citations, standard American English, etc. In short, if there was a point you were trying to make, it was not made.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#217737 - 03/24/12 05:17 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Folks,

Seems a great many here are ready to join the lynch mob from the tone of their posts. Not unexpected, but most at odds with the leading gun forums and blogs, where skepticism and concern predominate at this time. But what are y'all going to say if it turns out this was a "righteous shooting" ?

There's reports the alleged "victim", Treyvon, was in the act of assaulting Hernandez when he was shot. And his eyewitness testimony to the PD may have been a factor in their releasing the shooter at the time. Its almost a certainty forensics will either support/refute this claim.

But on a larger scope, where was/is the "outrage" when two British tourists were gunned down by a 17 -year old black male in FL last April ? Why weren't there calls for "whites" to riot when a black man shot a white youth breaking into his car in NYS a couple of years back ? And why didn't the hoplophobes scream "foul" when the GJ refused to return a bill ?

IOW, the Treyvon case has been perverted by the media and others (IMO) onto a circus about race, and nothing whatsoever about law or justice ! "The usual suspects" have marshalled their forces to make this - ordinary street incident - a "cause celebre" for political purposes. Why so much hoopla over one when 10 died in Chicago ?

I suspect it has far more to do with FL's gun laws than any feelings of "loss" on the part of the protestors ! I also suspect they see this as a prime opportunity to, not merely "dance in the blood of the victim", but to manipulate the argument in light of the pending election, and to counter to recent revelations of USAG Holder's animus for guns, gun owners, and the white community in general . >Mech

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#217742 - 03/24/12 05:41 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
Scoutgal Offline
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Posts: 25866
Loc: CA USA
Mech~Come on, even the NRA is saying that George Zimmerman was wrong, as does law enforcement in operating in Neighborhood Watch. The kid had an iced tea and a bag of Skittles in his hands and was wearing a hoodie, because it was raining. He was being stalked and then chased by a man who got out of his car openly carrying a weapon.I'd be scared and try and run for my life, too. But then, I am not a young black male in a nice area, which made 'ol Georgie suspicious-why? because in his little pea-brained mind, it was some gangsta trying to break in. And Georgie wanted to play Dirty Harry/be a hero. He broke every rule of 1)Neighborhood Watch, 2) what the police/sheriffs specifically told him NOT to do and 3)What common sense would ascribe. That you think people cannot make a reasonable judgement on that information shows a distinct lack of 1)logic and 2)common sense. More like an
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#217747 - 03/24/12 06:09 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Seems a great many here are ready to join the lynch mob from the tone of their posts.

I don't know who you are talking about. If one of the great many is me, let me set you straight. The facts, as I understand them, are that a neighborhood watch guy was suspicious of somebody in his neighborhood, called it in, then, against the rules for neighborhood watchmen and the clear request of the 911 dispatcher, confronted his suspect while in possession of a firearm, also against NW rules. He ended up shooting and killing his suspect, who turned out to be an unarmed kid. I can see no reason why Zimmerman was not arrested and an investigation begun immediately. I do not think that he should be lynched. I do not think that he should have been let loose because he claimed that he was defending himself.
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
But what are y'all going to say if it turns out this was a "righteous shooting" ?

Whatever the result of a reasonable legal process, fine with me.
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
There's reports the alleged "victim", Treyvon, was in the act of assaulting Hernandez when he was shot. And his eyewitness testimony to the PD may have been a factor in their releasing the shooter at the time. Its almost a certainty forensics will either support/refute this claim.

Ahh, so you are the judge and jury? I'm advocating for a reasonable process for dealing with the shooting death of an unarmed boy. I'm not speculating on the outcome of the process. Who is Hernandez?

Originally Posted By: Mechanic
But on a larger scope, where was/is the "outrage" when two British tourists were gunned down by a 17 -year old black male in FL last April ? Why weren't there calls for "whites" to riot when a black man shot a white youth breaking into his car in NYS a couple of years back ? And why didn't the hoplophobes scream "foul" when the GJ refused to return a bill ?

I have never heard of these incidents. Was a proper process followed? Did an unarmed kid get shot and killed with the shooter claiming self-defense so the local cops decided to not do anything? That is the subject of this thread. If your other examples bear on this, please explain.
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
IOW, the Treyvon case has been perverted by the media and others (IMO) onto a circus about race, and nothing whatsoever about law or justice ! "The usual suspects" have marshalled their forces to make this - ordinary street incident - a "cause celebre" for political purposes. Why so much hoopla over one when 10 died in Chicago ?

I happen to agree that making this about race may be jumping the gun. I happen to think (the reason I started this thread and titled it the way I did) is that this is a good example of what happens when you set the stage for allowing overzealous, poorly trained Defenders loose with firearms and back them up with nebulous, self-determined Stand Your Ground laws. The pet theory of the NRA is that people will be responsible with firearms and need them to protect themselves. In this instance it would appear that the opposite of this theory occurred. Possession of a gun seems to have given Zimmerman an unwarranted sense of power and recklessness, which he may have abused. As for the rest of your statement, it seems to me that you are wandering into some dismal swamp of your own imagination and have become unintelligible to me.
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
I suspect it has far more to do with FL's gun laws than any feelings of "loss" on the part of the protestors ! I also suspect they see this as a prime opportunity to, not merely "dance in the blood of the victim", but to manipulate the argument in light of the pending election, and to counter to recent revelations of USAG Holder's animus for guns, gun owners, and the white community in general . >Mech

This is more poorly translated Ukrainian in my view. It's no wonder that you think others are always careering off into the weeds with assumptions and strange agendas as you are a pro at that very thing.
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#217753 - 03/24/12 06:43 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
In the not very distant past, there was an incident in my area that tracked this level of gross irresponsibility with a gun, resulted in the death of an innocent and unarmed young man, and in which the killer was not charged, based upon a claim of "self defense" when the shooter provoked the confrontation. I was outraged about that one too, and race had no role in it. He even reloaded after the kids drove off, then ambushed them when they passed him trying to get away (as it was a dead end street).

Indeed, the number of "self defense" justified homicides tripled following passage of this law, and Florida law enforcement officials were largely opposed to it at the time. A bad law is a bad law. I read, in discussion of this subject by a prosecutor, one incident where two gangs were involved in a shootout, and none of the participants charged because each could "plausibly" claim that they were acting in self defense. Common sense apparently is not required when guns enter the picture.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#217785 - 03/25/12 12:29 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Martin's shooting had more to do with Zimmerman's Walter Mitty fantasy of being a neighborhood enforcer than anything else.
Racism, standing your ground, self defense, all minor factors compared to his larger than life dream of getting some bad guys and basking in the hero's glory.
This is the mindset that polluted his judgment and caused him to make the fatal mistake of shooting an unarmed law abiding kid who had every right to be where he was.
And that mistake in judgment also cost him whatever protection he might have sought under any self defense posture.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#217803 - 03/25/12 03:14 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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There is now a separate thread started on this incident with links. It appears that the news reports have been generally wrong, as the initial police reports do indicate that Zimmerman was transported to the station for questioning.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217811 - 03/25/12 10:44 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Stand-your-ground law had a sad history ...l#storylink=cpy
Quote:
tand Your Ground, the way the law has been interpreted, has proven to be a wild misnomer. Like Trayvon Martin, Pedro Roteta was pursued down a city street by his killer.

On Jan. 25, Roteta had apparently been trying to steal the radio from a truck owned by Greyston Garcia, parked outside his apartment in southwest Miami. Truck burglary’s a crime of course, but not a capital case. Not before 2005.

Garcia grabbed a large knife and chased the 26-year-old Roteta down the block. He caught up with Roteta, who was unarmed except for an unopened pocketknife in his pocket, and stabbed him to death. The confrontation was captured on a surveillance video.

Miami police were not nearly as cautious as the cops in Sanford. Garcia was arrested and charged with second-degree murder. But under the peculiarities of the stand-your-ground statute, the case never went to trial. Judge Bloom decided Wednesday that Garcia was immune from prosecution.

or this
Quote:
Travesties of the Stand Your Ground kind keep adding up. At mid-afternoon on Aug. 11, 2009, a black Maxima chased a beige Infiniti at harrowing speeds down Old Cutler Road. Other cars veered off the road. One innocent motorist was sideswiped before the Infiniti crashed into a clump of bushes, the rear window blasted out, bullet holes in the trunk, spent cartridges littering the interior.

The driver of the Infiniti, Sujaye E. Henry, 26, was killed, slumped over the steering wheel, two bullet wounds in the shoulder, a third through his left eye socket. Here was a homicide brought on by reckless gunfire on a city street, spawned by a dispute over a drug deal. There was a time when Anthony Gonzalez Jr., 31, aka “White Boy,” a passenger in the pursing Maxima and the gunman who fired the fatal shot, might have faced harsh consequences.
The case never went to trial. Gonzalez, after all, as he fired away from the passenger seat, was acting under the permissive parameters of the Stand Your Ground doctrine.

Stand Your Ground preempted any thought of prosecuting a former Broward County deputy sheriff who pumped four rounds into an aggressive panhandler outside a Miami Lakes ice cream parlor in January. The month before, Broward Circuit Judge Ilona Holmes bypassed a jury and acquitted Nour Badi Jarkas, 54, of Plantation, who had shot his estranged wife’s boyfriend four times inside her house in 2009. Judge Holmes cited Stand Your Ground, saying, “nothing was presented ... to rebut the reasonableness of the fear that [Jarkas] testified that he had.”


But the insanity keeps on coming: Iowa lawmaker will push ‘stand your ground’ despite Florida teen shooting
Quote:
Brian Gardner of Linn County. Gardner and the Sheriff’s Association have advocated against “stand your ground.”

“This is a classic example of what we are concerned about,” Gardner said in a phone conversation Thursday. “There’s no provision in the law that requires someone to de-escalate a situation. That’s the problem.”

Iowa Firearms Coalition spokesman Jeff Burkett said Friday his organization and the National Rifle Association have lobbied strongly for “stand your ground” laws in Iowa.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217832 - 03/25/12 02:19 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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It has been a fixture of the common law, since before we were a country, that one could defend oneself with lethal force when confronted with death or grievous bodily harm. It has also been nearly universal that one is not required to retreat when confronted in your home. There are anectdotal examples of exceptions, but they are indeed rare.

The problem with this law is that it is the product of an ideological position, and not a "rational" process of development based upon real world experience. It is, therefore, poorly written and understood. I cannot provide a direct link to the statute (although there is one in the Trayvon Martin thread). Since its adoption in Florida there has been a 4 fold increase in the application of "justifiable homicide" in increasingly outlandish circumstances.

It is, I think, emblematic of the adoption of laws, not to address real world circumstances, but in the pursuit of ideological purity, and the failure of legislatures collectively, and legislators individually, to apply common sense and rational thought to their actions. It is also, in my opinion, the result of our failure as an electorate, to hold them accountable for their actions. Instead, we allow unelected special interest groups to control our laws. We should all be ashamed when we let that happen.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217835 - 03/25/12 02:44 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Agreed, the principle of standing one's ground is a sound one where self defense is concerned.
The issue at hand is one of poorly written law, poorly written, poorly applied and poorly interpreted.
No admonition is made to those who elect to voluntarily pursue and confront when natural law would indicate that deadly force is only called for in immediate circumstances not brought on by the defender.

Standing one's ground should apply only to the ground one occupies at the time of confrontation, provided the person has every right to be there.

Pursuit turns defense into offense. Offense cannot claim protection under self-defense.
You cannot have it both ways.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#217848 - 03/25/12 04:28 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
Here's a link to the Florida law, which was adopted verbatim from the NRA "model": Florida Statute 776.032
Quote:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use
of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the
term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the
force that was used was unlawful.

See Section 776.012 Use of force in defense of person 776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm. Here's the problematic part:
Quote:
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217871 - 03/25/12 08:32 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
The more I read the more I am coming to believe that this is actually a testosterone issue on the part of the legislature. "I am confronting you, you are confronting me, my balls are bigger than yours, and you are going DOWN, M----- F-----."

A law like this does not belong on the books. All Zimmermann had to do was turn around and walk away, which is apparently what the kid was trying to do. I say apparently, but that only means I don't know what really happened; I know only what I read. But regardless of what happened, I DO KNOW THIS: if Zimmermann had not let his balls interfere with his brain we would not be having this discussion. When I was a firefighter we and the police called people like this squirrels. I don't know if that term is in use today, but Zimmermann is a textbook definition of such an idiot.

And as to the part of the law that says the police cannot even arrest such a person is just stupid. The NRA at its finest.
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#217966 - 03/26/12 08:00 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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It was a simplistic solution to a nonexistent problem that was not subjected to critical analysis.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218007 - 03/27/12 08:49 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Looks like the Zimmerman story now includes Martin trying to beat him up. But didn't Martin have the right to aggressively stand his ground using force in the face of a perceived threat? If so, then Zimmerman violated Martin's right to stand his ground by shooting him dead.

The pet NRA theory that has been tested is that packing a gun makes a person more safe, and that gun packers have had, in the past, their right to keep themselves safe abridged by not being allowed to shoot somebody when they get scared. Stand Your Ground laws fix that. The obvious failing in the Zimmerman-Martin example is that Martin did not have a gun with which to shoot Zimmerman before Zimmerman could shoot Martin. There is no right of prior self-defense in the Stand Your Ground law, and there shouldn't be. If you want to be safe, pack heat.

The moral of the story is: don't bring skittles to a self-defense duel when the other guy has a gun.
_________________________
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#218109 - 03/27/12 09:19 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Quote:
"According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence — a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison.

All three of those arrests, however, were mysteriously closed with no semblance of charges for the Florida resident. So how was someone with a violent past including that of battery against an officer able to carry a 9 mm handgun? Maybe that’s a question Robert Zimmerman should answer …"


CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE
BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER
was CLOSED without trial/prosecution/conviction/sentence.

What kind of person gets this sort of special treatment?
The son of a Florida Magistrate judge, that's who.
Still think this is a fair case?

2005-CF-009525-A-O
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983

07/18/2005
Div 10
OKane, Julie H

Criminal Felony
Closed

CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE
BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER

2005-MM-010436-A-O
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983

07/18/2005
Orlando
Miller, W Michael

Misdemeanor
Closed

CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITHOUT VIOLENCE
2006-TR-219362-A-O
0244RCN

ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL

12/14/2006
Orlando
Officer, 98 Hearing

Civil Traffic Infraction
Closed

TR- UNLAWFUL SPEED
2006-TR-219364-A-O
0245RCN

ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL

12/14/2006
Orlando
Officer, 98 Hearing

Civil Traffic Infraction
Closed

TR- CERT OF REGISTRATION POSSESS REQ


From where I sit, if an unidentified person pursues me, who clearly is not a law enforcement officer and I'm on public property, and gets in my face, he's going to GET a beating.

The only difference is, now I know that the person might be packing.
I don't draw anything from the notion that Martin might have laid into Zimmerman other than the fact that he had every right to, Zimmerman being the one on the offensive.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#218138 - 03/27/12 10:28 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Ted Remington]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
Originally Posted By: Ted Remington
The more I read the more I am coming to believe that this is actually a testosterone issue on the part of the legislature. "I am confronting you, you are confronting me, my balls are bigger than yours, and you are going DOWN, M----- F-----."

A law like this does not belong on the books. All Zimmermann had to do was turn around and walk away, which is apparently what the kid was trying to do. I say apparently, but that only means I don't know what really happened; I know only what I read. But regardless of what happened, I DO KNOW THIS: if Zimmermann had not let his balls interfere with his brain we would not be having this discussion. When I was a firefighter we and the police called people like this squirrels. I don't know if that term is in use today, but Zimmermann is a textbook definition of such an idiot.

And as to the part of the law that says the police cannot even arrest such a person is just stupid. The NRA at its finest.


TR, I'm glad you're youthful/agile enough to successfully flee a potential confrontation ! Many of us are too old/fat/handicapped to successfully do so ! Does our physical inabilites abrogate our constitutional and legal rights in your lexicon ?

Your canard re the NRA isn't even worthy of reply !

IOW, like the posse killing horses on the way to Ox-Bow Canyon, you've just sided the ilk of the NBPP, USAG Holder and the President ! I don't expect any of you to "own up" let alone dine on the plate of crow you're so adamant on creating ! ! >Mech !

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#218141 - 03/27/12 10:49 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Anybody know how to operate an Acme decoder ring?
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#218143 - 03/27/12 11:19 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6354
Loc: Florida/Illinois
Quote:
Anybody know how to operate an Acme decoder ring?


umm... try this

also... in keeping with the interest in this topic...
related information

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#218144 - 03/27/12 11:29 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
God if I had a nickel for every reference to the NBPP painting them as some powerful group with actual reach I could retire!

These ass hats could't even cut it in the Nation of Islam, they're lower then the Westboro bunch and the last time they tried voter intimidation they got scooped up by the PD inside of twenty minutes and yet from reading Mech's quoted comment you would think they had numbers in the hundreds of thousands with willing adherents flooding the streets of Anytown USA.

Their numbers? About two hundred.
Gimme a break, would you Mech, turn off Fox for FIVE minutes.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#218147 - 03/27/12 11:32 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: itstarted]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Very useful links, thanks Cousin It! ThumbsUp
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#218222 - 03/28/12 10:26 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: NW Ponderer]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
And obviously "overheaded " you as well !

By far the vast majority of homicides involving blacks are "black on black" crimes, ( to delineate it terms of race), to the tune of over 17/day in 2010 per the UCR !
Where is the "moral outrage" on the part of the "usual prevaricators" on this statistic ? The "Martin case" isn't even a "bump" on the statistical graph of white on black statistics because they are so few per the same source ! So why the "hoopla" ? Except that it plays to the Obama racist meme ! And the the 2012 DNP election scheme ! >Mech

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#218225 - 03/28/12 10:39 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Scoutgal]
Mechanic Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 802
SG,
I ain't "defending -nor vilifying - Zimmerman ! I'm content to wait for the Sanford PD to do their job and the Grand Jury to do its job !

Pity so many are4n't equally concerned/ aroused over the other sixteen deaths of black youths at the hands of black assailants that same day, (per UCR stats) ! >Mech

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#218231 - 03/29/12 12:12 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
Can't provide a link from my non-computer, but there is now a video of Zimmerman's arrival at the station. Make of of it what you will.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218240 - 03/29/12 08:13 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: Mechanic]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Mechanic
And obviously "overheaded " you as well !

By far the vast majority of homicides involving blacks are "black on black" crimes, ( to delineate it terms of race), to the tune of over 17/day in 2010 per the UCR !
Where is the "moral outrage" on the part of the "usual prevaricators" on this statistic ? The "Martin case" isn't even a "bump" on the statistical graph of white on black statistics because they are so few per the same source ! So why the "hoopla" ? Except that it plays to the Obama racist meme ! And the the 2012 DNP election scheme ! >Mech

Originally Posted By: Mechanic
Pity so many are4n't equally concerned/ aroused over the other sixteen deaths of black youths at the hands of black assailants that same day, (per UCR stats) ! >Mech

Perhaps you'd like to take a run at answering your question? I believe I asked for links a number of days ago but you didn't provide any. If you don't understand how to post a link, I'm sure somebody could help you out with that.

Also, this thread is about the Stand Your Ground laws, so if the other issues that you keep referencing don't relate to that, then this is not the thread for discussing them. You can start a thread of your own on the subject and maybe you will get some discussion on the lack of moral outrage, et cetera.

What's UCR?
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
Unknown

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#218741 - 04/02/12 09:14 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6197
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
NRA guy makes a very convincing case that the SYG law is innocent, and uses lethal force defending it by throwing Florida law enforcement folks under the bus.

NRA guy

He does add a little bit of language to the law that isn't there, like it doesn't apply if you are stalking someone and it only applies if someone is threatening to kill you. Such minor details that should be so obvious as to have no need for repeating within the law itself. I think the interview just ran short on time, but he never got around to saying how those minor things that aren't included in the law could be ascertained after one of the players was dead (the one without a gun). I think it was a ploy on the part of CNN to make the NRA look stupid.
_________________________
"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#218744 - 04/02/12 10:01 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I think it was a ploy on the part of CNN to make the NRA look stupid.


Why would they need any help in that arena?
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#218755 - 04/02/12 11:34 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
LT, Mech cannot respond to your request, as he is no longer a participant in the forum.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218758 - 04/02/12 11:52 AM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
I find it ... ironic does not seem sufficient... that the people who are most adamant in defense of this law (and I am not talking about here in the forum), say that it is not the law, but how it is being interpreted that is wrong, and not what it actually says, are the same people who are as vociferous in their attacks on judges who... wait for it... are activist judges for interpreting the Constitution, when we should be limited to what it actually says. At the same time, however, insisting that the Supreme Court ignore that bit of the Second Amendment that doesn't coincide with their interpretation. So, we should imply language that isn't there with regard to the Florida law, but ignore language that is there in the Constitution. Either way, blame the judge.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218829 - 04/02/12 10:44 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
Glad I am not in either of those categories NWP.
I DO blame the law, the way it was written.

Logtroll sez:
Quote:
Such minor details that should be so obvious as to have no need for repeating within the law itself.


When it comes to something like excercising the right to use deadly force on an attacker I do not think laws should leave even the least or most obvious things to chance, or interpretation.

In fact for something that serious, I am adamant that the law should make itself crystal clear to even the most toothless knuckle dragging imbecile imaginable, if only because so many in that social strata seem to have some predisposition to settling their problems, real or perceived, with deadly force.

In the perfect world this law is supposed to take the threat of a heavy prison term off the innocent law abiding citizen minding their own business who gets brutally accosted by a criminal and responds by blowing him away.

It's not supposed to protect self appointed Marshall Dillons, over-excited bouncers, overzealous property owners who camp out behind their NO TRESPASSING signs with itchy trigger fingers and convicted felons who manage to slip under the radar and purchase guns when they know full well they shouldn't be able to.

It's not supposed to protect stalkers who see things that aren't there, those who suffer paranoid delusions that an entire race of humans is out to attack them, tea baggers who strut around at political rallies shrieking about watering the tree of liberty or just plain stupid people who don't understand the difference between starting a confrontation and dealing with one that someone else started.

And all of that, and more, does need to be put into the wording of any kind of law that intends to give a very limited set of permissions to end a human life under a strict set of circumstances where there is no other remedy short of the law abiding citizen giving up their own life instead.

I realize that we cannot idiot proof every law or anticipate every single possibility. And I also recognize the fact that no law can offer a guarantee of 100 percent infallibility or a 100 percent guarantee of safety.

But not only can we not leave the law sporting an "anything goes" loophole, we also must make a reasonable effort to impart the serious consequences due anyone who uses the law as a short path to stardom and glory, the way our amateur lawman George Zimmerman seems to have done.

We already do that much for lots of laws that pertain to a wide range of human activities.
Vehicle laws, driving laws, laws that pertain to educating our children, laws that define the moment of conception, laws that deal with interstate commerce; laws of all kinds have reams of admonitions directing their proper use and interpretation.
We're even going to the wall with laws that permit the use of something as harmless as MARIJUANA, fer Chrissakes.

So that's the least we can do with a law that permits the excercise of one of the most powerful and deadly rights any society can have.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#218852 - 04/03/12 12:40 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11806
Jeff, I did not want to leave the impression that no one responded to your last post because it was somehow off the mark, but, at least for me, it was so right-on, so worthy, and so thorough it left little room for debate. Bow
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218857 - 04/03/12 01:03 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Bow Bow
Concur.
Well stated, Jeff.
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#219029 - 04/04/12 10:30 PM Re: NRA tests a pet theory [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10490
Loc: Downey, California
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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