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#217797 - 03/25/12 02:21 AM The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case
Golem Offline
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I've read some interesting material regarding the Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case.

I'll lead of with a post from Free Republic that I agree with. This guy is a former LEO:

Quote:
My opinion (and it is just that)...based on nothing but the released tapes and statements is this...

Zimmerman was the clear aggressor up to the point of the end of the tape.

Martin ran (according to zimmerman on the tape). This is action that avoids confrontation and is exactly what I have taught my kids to do should they ever be followed by a strange adult.

Zimmerman has a documented history of violence - once assaulting a LEO, once smacking his GF around.

Martin has no record (except suspension for habitual tardiness).

Zimmerman viewed Martin, in his own words, as a "effin punk", "on drugs", and up to something. Zimmerman said, "these assholes always get away".

These statements indicate a mindset wherein Zimmerman had decided that Martin was on drugs, a punk and about to escape. Except for the escape part none of this was true.

Here comes my opinion...

Based on their actions of pursuit and avoidance and on Zimmerman's attitude about Martin I believe that Zimmerman continued his course and either caught up with or bumped into Martin.

I think that, given the actions that we know of up to this point, Zimmerman was the aggressor and bit off more than he could chew.

This is, to me, a much more likely scenario than a sudden reversal in behavior by both Zimmerman and Martin.

I also believe that Zimmerman will not face charges...not because he is not culpable...but because there are no witnesses to the beginning of the fight.

Also, absent any racial comments by Zimmerman on the tape (he said punk, not coon) there is no "hate" crime. The Feds have no standing...


Next, please look at this:

Neighbor comes to defense of Trayvon Martin's shooter (with video clips) I would recommend watching at least the first clip.

And here is a document (PDF) from the city of Sanford, Florida that contains several informative links.

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#217798 - 03/25/12 02:51 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Scoutgal Offline
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The neighbor is not credible, IMHO, because the neighbor was not there. There are rumors that the police claim that an eye witness has come forward and stated that Martin was the agressor, but the statement by said witness has not been released. I have to agree with that LEO from FR. Did I really just say that??? shocked crazy
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#217800 - 03/25/12 03:03 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Golem Offline
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Remember, just because Martin was on top of Zimmerman pounding the s*** out of him doesn't mean the Martin was the instigator. It's possible that Zimmerman was the instigator and Martin just turned the tables on him (a point my FReeper pal has made several times).

And it's OK to agree with wtc911. He's reasonable. smile

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#217801 - 03/25/12 03:05 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I had read that one of the callers described Zimmerman being on top of Martin right before the shot was fired. There is no credible scenario that makes Martin the aggressor, or even a credible threat to Zimmerman. Zimmerman went looking for trouble and found it. If this is self defense, there is no reasonable limitation on restraint. Moreover, it appears he deliberately lied to the police when he claimed he was the one screaming for help.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#217804 - 03/25/12 03:39 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Golem

Also, absent any racial comments by Zimmerman on the tape (he said punk, not coon) there is no "hate" crime. The Feds have no standing...

Next, please look at this:

Neighbor comes to defense of Trayvon Martin's shooter (with video clips) I would recommend watching at least the first clip.



In reviewing the video...Zimmerman's "defending " neighbor stated that the neighborhood had suffered multiple burglaries... that Zimmerman was mad as hell, and wasn't going to take it....

If we re-state the defense of Zimmerman, he was angry, he was predisposed to be suspicious of african americans.... that he had a gun, and he killed a kid for no apparent reason except the forgoing facts.

It seems to me that Mr. Zimmerman did in fact have free floating anger against "suspicious" African american kids... and that racially associated anger resulted in a totally unjustified killing


It seems to me that Mr. Zimmerman must be held responsible for allowing his anger to influence him to pursue the victim without provocation and kill the victim with the gun that he chose to carry...

What is the cliche? Guns do not kill people, people kill people. If you choose to carry a gun, then it seems to me that you hav to be held responsible for how you use that gun.





Edited by Ardy (03/25/12 03:40 AM)
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#217805 - 03/25/12 03:42 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Thanks for providing the links, Golem. The most direct information i have had since this started.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217806 - 03/25/12 05:31 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: NW Ponderer]
Schlack Offline
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#217808 - 03/25/12 10:05 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
california rick Offline
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Neighborhood Watch is an extension of local police departments. The NW Captain or point person, is a liaison between the neighborhood and the local police department.

It is standard practice that the police department tell you not to engage the perps, call police dispatch immediately, and if possible, have your neighbors visually follow the perp by looking out their windows and reporting back to the NW captain.

In our city, we don't call "911" we call police dispatch directly on their direct line. The police dispatcher facilitates getting the patrol car to the location and meeting the NW captain immediately. Doing so is actually faster than calling 911.

Neighborhood Watch isn't about one person keeping a vigil eye. It's about everyone participating in keeping the neighborhood safe from harm. Everything that Zimmerman did was against Neighborhood Watch protocol.

More information on the Neighborhood Watch program.
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#217810 - 03/25/12 10:37 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
california rick Offline
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I'm also willing to bet the Zimmerman is out-of-work with too much time on his hands.
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#217812 - 03/25/12 10:55 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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He was not out of work before the shooting, but hasn't been to work since. Don't have the link right now. His school also expelled him for safety reasons (death threats, and notoriety).
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217818 - 03/25/12 01:08 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
california rick Offline
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Zimmerman wanted to be a LEO, but had run-ins with LE in 2005. Zimmerman assaulted a police officer.

Important to this incident is that Zimmerman was told by 911 that there was "no need" to follow Martin and to stay in his car thereby not approach Mr. Martin. Zimmerman was not law enforcement. Zimmerman had no right to stop, question, nor come close to Martin.

How was Martin know that Zimmerman wasn't some sort of criminal trying to assault him?
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#217821 - 03/25/12 01:20 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Apparently he did. His girlfriend said the last thing he said was, "why are you following me?"
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217842 - 03/25/12 04:06 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Ardy Offline
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By the way.... "holding Mr Zimmerman responsible" does not mean that he should be charged with first degree premeditated murder.

But he did in fact kill someone with a gun. I do not know what the law says... but it seems to me that if you shoot and kill someone ... particularly someone that you were chasing... .... you need to offer some convincing evidence that killing was justified.... saying that there are no witnesses and you have to take my word for it is , by itself, not good enough to justify this sort of killing.


Edited by Ardy (03/25/12 04:10 PM)
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#217850 - 03/25/12 04:44 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Ardy Offline
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By the way, if we entirely remove the racial component to this story.... what remains in dispute IMO is the issue of responsibility born by those who choose to carry guns.

I can live with a right to own guns... even a right to carry guns... I can live with a right to self defense

What I cannot live with is the idea that a gun owner has less responsibility for gun safety than a car owner has responsibility not to run over people with his car. If Zimmerman had run over Martin with his car, he would have been arrested and charged by now. I Zimmerman had chased martin with his car and run over him and killed him he would likely;y be facing serious charges.

The fact that zimmerman now regrets these events is as irrelevant as a car driver's regret that he ran over a pedestrian.

If you drive recklessly, you are responsible. If you shoot recklessly, you should also be responsible.


Edited by Ardy (03/25/12 05:18 PM)
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#217877 - 03/25/12 09:12 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Slipped Mickey Offline
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Why was it necessary for Zimmerman to get out of his car? To my thinking that is the first question that must be resolved to most everyone's satisfaction.

What was the perceived threat, and what was being threatened, while Zimmerman was in his car?

Would most people consider the reasonable course of action for Zimmerman was to leave his car and to confront Martin? What threat was Zimmerman attempting to stop when he got out of his car?
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#217888 - 03/25/12 10:33 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Slipped Mickey]
Golem Offline
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Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 2276
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Originally Posted By: Slipped Mickey
Why was it necessary for Zimmerman to get out of his car? To my thinking that is the first question that must be resolved to most everyone's satisfaction.

What was the perceived threat, and what was being threatened, while Zimmerman was in his car?

Would most people consider the reasonable course of action for Zimmerman was to leave his car and to confront Martin? What threat was Zimmerman attempting to stop when he got out of his car?

He was told not to follow him but it looks like he did it anyway.

Midway through this 911 call:
Quote:
Police: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Police: OK, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: OK.

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#217892 - 03/25/12 10:51 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Golem Offline
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BTW, I know that a lot of people are wearing hoodies as a sign of support. I think this people are pretentious self-loving twits.
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#217893 - 03/25/12 11:02 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4315
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Police: OK, we don't need you to do that.


That was definitely a mistake on the part of the officer. He (or she) should have said: "Stop that now."

Instead it left Zimmerman with the option to continue, interpreting that as volunteering additional assistance to the police. The whole point of Neighborhood Watch is for the participants to stay safe, watch, and supply information to police. The police especially don't want Neighborhood Watch participants confronting subjects, or being misinterpreted as a threat by police officers, and getting injured or killed as a result.

I am kind of curious: Why was Zimmerman accepted in Neighborhood Watch (and why did he have a gun), if he was previously charged with assault on a police officer?

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#217894 - 03/25/12 11:05 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4315
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
people are wearing hoodies as a sign of support. I think this people are pretentious self-loving twits.


I wear them often in the winter, because my head gets cold. But why would expressing support for the victim of a violent crime be pretentious?

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#217895 - 03/25/12 11:12 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: pondering_it_all]
Golem Offline
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Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 2276
Loc: Orange County, California, USA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
people are wearing hoodies as a sign of support. I think this people are pretentious self-loving twits.


I wear them often in the winter, because my head gets cold. But why would expressing support for the victim of a violent crime be pretentious?
Because we don't know all the facts and we never will. It's just another "Look at me - am I not so cool and hip and sensitive?" gesture.

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#217896 - 03/25/12 11:14 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
people are wearing hoodies as a sign of support. I think this people are pretentious self-loving twits.


I wear them often in the winter, because my head gets cold. But why would expressing support for the victim of a violent crime be pretentious?


I wonder if an African american kid wearing a hoodie is asking for it.... just as a woman wearing a short skirt is asking to be raped?
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#217897 - 03/25/12 11:17 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I don't think it is pretentious, I think it is symbolic. But then, I now think we have sufficient facts. We will never know all the facts. We never do.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217898 - 03/25/12 11:22 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ardy]
Golem Offline
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Registered: 03/12/12
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
I wonder if an African american kid wearing a hoodie is asking for it.... just as a woman wearing a short skirt is asking to be raped?
Don't be silly. I never said that, I never implied that, and I don't think that way at all.


Edited by Golem (03/25/12 11:24 PM)
Edit Reason: redacted stupid comment

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#217899 - 03/25/12 11:30 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: pondering_it_all]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Police: OK, we don't need you to do that.


That was definitely a mistake on the part of the officer. He (or she) should have said: "Stop that now."

911 dispatchers are not sworn officers. They don't have the training or knowledge to make those types of judgment calls.

When the 911 dispatcher said: We don't need you to do that

...that should have ended the pursuit. The onus is now on Mr. Zimmerman.
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#217900 - 03/25/12 11:33 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: pondering_it_all]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I am kind of curious: Why was Zimmerman accepted in Neighborhood Watch (and why did he have a gun), if he was previously charged with assault on a police officer?

Mr. Zimmerman assaulted, but was never charged.
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#217901 - 03/25/12 11:58 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
california rick Offline
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Hoodies have become 'office wear' :




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#217902 - 03/26/12 02:38 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
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Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: Golem
Originally Posted By: Ardy
I wonder if an African american kid wearing a hoodie is asking for it.... just as a woman wearing a short skirt is asking to be raped?
Don't be silly. I never said that, I never implied that, and I don't think that way at all.


I am sorry if Implied that you do think that way.... it was not my thought or intention to do so.


From what I have been reading... it seems to me that many people do have a reflexive reaction of feeling threatened by african american kids in hoodie shirts. And, IMO, I have gotten the feeling that many people feel that it is some how natural for people to feel threatened by African american kids in hoodie shirts. And so, if an african american kid chooses to wear a hoodie shirt, he has made this choice with indifference to how it will impact other people... he has more or less decided that he has a right to dress like a hoodlum if he wants. But for other people, that wardrobe choice results in inevitable pre-judgements.

And, what I was trying to point out, wothout direct reference to you or your opinions which I am unfamiliar with.... is that these sorts of prejudgements are not far removed from the people who think that a woman who wears provocative clothing is asking to be raped.

With all respect to those who have the opinion that certain wardrobe choices invite rape... I will acknowledge that such people are not evil... nor are the people who think that a hoodie is an inappropriate wardrobe choice for an african american kid.... these are fundamentally "good" and well intentioned people... But I do not think that we can blame rape upon women who are attractive.... nor do I think that we can blame the shooting of an innocent teen on the fact that he choose to wear a hoodie

And I only wanted to make this point in general... and not associate any opinions with Golem...who again I emphasize did not express this opinion either directly or indirectly.
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#217911 - 03/26/12 11:52 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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That was Geraldo Rivera who expressed that opinion. It was part of the discussion in the "NRA theory" thread. I thought I would throw that in as an extension of the explanation.

Having said that, people do make choices that can influence other people's impressions, including the choice of wardrobe. That is part of human nature. I am more impressed by a job candidate who dresses well for an interview. I will think sexual thoughts of a woman who dresses provocatively. And I might be disinclined to interact with a young black male who dresses like a gangster (even if he is a rap artist). I also don't think Juan Williams (I think it was) admitting that he gets nervous when he sees people dressed in Muslim garb boarding his plane. I'm not even going to criticize George Zimmerman's choice to call the police when he saw an unfamiliar person walking around in his gated community - even if the call was inspired in part by how the kid dressed - that is what neighborhood watch is supposed to do.

None of those reactions, however, excuse the subsequent actions taken in response to that. All of us react, consciously or unconsciously to clothing and behavior cues, and if we think we don't, we are not be being honest with ourselves. It is the steps that follow, what we do with those reactions that make a difference. Making a hiring decision based on race or gender, smirking or leering, or propositioning the provocatively dressed woman, crossing to the other side of the street or calling the police, or removing someone from the plane because they are wearing a Burka or turban - those are our behaviors that we have to take responsibility for.

In this instance, what George Zimmerman did - whether he can be convicted of it or not - were entirely his responsibility. He pursued a course of action that precipitated a confrontation and resulted in the death of an innocent young man. I haveno idea how guilty he feels about it, but I will admit I have almost no sympathy for him, and I suspect he will "get over it" in time. Trayvon Martin will not.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217913 - 03/26/12 12:55 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
That was Geraldo Rivera who expressed that opinion. It was part of the discussion in the "NRA theory" thread.


Geraldo is not alone, he is only the most famous for directly expressing the issue.

I agree with NWP in what he said.... it is very easy to see certain wardrobe choices and to have a reflexive reaction.

But you cannot loose the bounds of self control just because you see (what you consider) a provocatively dressed woman,

And, IMO, before you start carrying a gun, you have to have a long and hard talk with yourself (and perhaps others) that clarifies the proper uses of that gun.... which is for clear self defense, and is not to embolden you to challenge others that you are suspicious of.

If you decide to carry a gun, and to act like a vigilante.... then you have to take responsibility for the results of those decisions. ... no matter how well intentioned.... and no matter how understandable we may sympathize with some sequence of events that resulted in a serious error.

If you are carrying a gun, and you decide to move beyond a posture of self defense... then the onus is on you for what happens with that gun. There is no constitutional right to carry a gun and act like the local rambo and go around making mistakes that wind up accidentally killing people.


Edited by Ardy (03/26/12 12:56 PM)
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#217925 - 03/26/12 02:51 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ken Condon Offline
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Good points NWP. Geraldo was vilified for what he said but there were grains of truth in his utterances. He also spend the rest of the day “clarifiing” his statements.
People do make judgements on others appearances- rightly or wrongly. Wearing a hoodie does not necessarily mean one is a gang banger but most gang bangers tend to wear hoodies. Combine that with a loony, armed, unbalanced cop wanna be and trouble is likely. Appearances do matter and can cause reactions from the “other side” just as speech patterns, the way one “holds” themselves, and other clues as to ones tribe membership.
Righty or wrongly they can have an effect on a given outcome.
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#218264 - 03/29/12 02:18 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
numan Offline
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'
New police video casts doubt on George Zimmerman injuries

George Zimmerman appears uninjured in a police video taken after the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman's attorney said that his client had a broken nose and an injury to the back of his head.
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#218265 - 03/29/12 02:22 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Thanks, numan, I was about to post that. I mentioned it in the wrong thread on the topic.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218285 - 03/29/12 04:15 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
numan Offline
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I try to please -- even if I don't always succeed. · · wink
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#218326 - 03/29/12 10:34 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
california rick Offline
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#218343 - 03/30/12 01:11 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Oh, the police got the two confused!
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#218402 - 03/30/12 05:42 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Many years ago when I was shooting occasional freelance news as a stringer I heard LAPD officers referring to a "frustrated wannabe cop" as a "secret squirrel".
They had just arrested the fellow for doing almost exactly what Zimmerman did except fortunately no one got killed.

Quote:
"Looks like we got us a secret squirrel on patrol."
(police laughter)
"God I hate dealing with these Rambo types."


Zimmerman held at least one job working as "private security" and was even fired for excessive force and over the top violent conduct while performing his "duties".

I've had a couple of run ins with private security guards who voluntarily left their designated posts and who pursued and confronted me. The legal term for the way they behaved, as I understand it to be, is "acting under color of authority".

The common colloquial term: FAKE COPS.

This Zimmerman character definitely fits the mold of a secret squirrel, a fake cop.

It's kinda "funny" (odd) but there are all kinds of jobs that take a very special type of person to do.

And those who fail to make the cut have to be happy doing something else. A would be surgeon who falters while holding the knife might choose to be a family practitioner, a candidate for the Air Force Academy might wash out and take comfort in being a crop duster, a person who applies to be a professional firefighter might have to be a volunteer in a small town that has less strict requirements, an enlistee trying out for the air cavalry might have to seek work as a TV news chopper pilot.

But we don't have to worry about the crop duster pilot strapping machine guns to his aircraft and strafing a nearby town after spraying a field.

Apparently we do have to worry about frustrated wannabe police officers.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#218405 - 03/30/12 06:07 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

But we don't have to worry about the crop duster pilot strapping machine guns to his aircraft and strafing a nearby town after spraying a field.

Oh, Thanks, Jeff

ANOTHER form of violence to worry about when visiting the United States !! · · rolleyes
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#218408 - 03/30/12 06:15 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: numan]
Scoutgal Offline
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Originally Posted By: numan
'
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

But we don't have to worry about the crop duster pilot strapping machine guns to his aircraft and strafing a nearby town after spraying a field.

Oh, Thanks, Jeff

ANOTHER form of violence to worry about when visiting the United States !! · · rolleyes


Hardly. I have never heard that happening, not even in our Quentin Tarantino-worshipping country. Besides, a machine gun mounted on a crop duster would be dangerous to the pilot, as the propeller would not be in sync with the machine gun fire. He would shoot up hi propeller and either have to ditch the plane or crash. Unless the pilot is able to use a WWI vintage war plane.
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#218414 - 03/30/12 06:25 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Oh COME on, Numan...like there aren't any Canadian crop dusters?
And I SAID we do NOT have to worry.

What I meant was, an AWFUL LOT of "frustrated wannabe cops" who wind up as security guards have this Rambo problem, this Dirty Harry thing.

It's almost a foregone conclusion.
I mean, okay maybe the nice guy working at the bank, he probably ISN'T likely to be the secret squirrel type.

But just as a for instance, I probably already about told my own encounter with WesTec Patrol but the short version is, WesTec had come under fire numerous times in the 80's and 90's because their "Armed Response" neighborhood patrols were overstepping their authority.

Some of the residents of the ritzier parts of West Los Angeles have "subscriptions" to WesTec Armed Response Security.

And in the 80's and 90's quite a few high profile incidents happened.
Used to be it was very difficult to tell the difference between a WesTec Security patrol car and a cop car back then. They had the same identical make and model, very similar markings, they even had colored light bars and sirens and their guards WERE ARMED and in full uniform, with handcuffs, nightsticks, the whole schmeer.

Unless you were a police aficionado if you saw one of these zoom by you would probably assume they were cops unless you saw the WesTec logo as the car sped by, often times with lights and sirens blaring.

And as I said, on a few occasions they went overboard and one day ALL of the WesTec cars suddenly had all their light bars stripped off, the sirens disconnected, and as it turns out the tipping point was an overzealous WesTec guard attempted to pull over a car on the 405 freeway. Turned out the driver was an off duty LAPD officer and not just an ordinary rank and file beat cop either, a sergeant.

And from what I remember that sergeant made enough of a stink that the Mayor's office and the Police Commission came down pretty hard on the company, and of course the guard got charged and convicted of impersonating a police officer and did some time for his adventures.

It must be intoxicating to think that you're an armed guard.
You're ALMOST a police officer, you are in charge of some small plot of land, you have "clients" to protect, you carry a piece, you have a full power patrol car with lights and sirens, you have a two way radio crackling with the buzz of a crime in progress.

For a guy who didn't make the cut at the academy it must be like that first line of coke, the first time you rev up your Plymouth Fury and go "Code Three", with a loaded clip in your sidearm, your gold WesTec badge glistening in the sun.

And for a guy with even more frustration, being a Neighborhood Watch volunteer means you get to skulk around in the dark, your acute senses sniffing out troublemakers, your trusty piece in your pocket and your "stand your ground" pamphlet telling you it's okay to hunt down the bad guys and....

oh wait a minute, does the law actually say anything about "hunting down" someone?
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#218421 - 03/30/12 06:58 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
It must be intoxicating to think that you're an armed guard.
You're ALMOST a police officer, you are in charge of some small plot of land, you have "clients" to protect, you carry a piece, you have a full power patrol car with lights and sirens, you have a two way radio crackling with the buzz of a crime in progress.

An interesting thought, Jeff.

I wonder if there might be some person posting here who would find such a job more fulfilling than their humdrum daily activities.

Just an idle speculation.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218427 - 03/30/12 07:54 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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And...do you have a specific person in mind?
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"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

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#218432 - 03/30/12 08:54 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I think numan was just daydreaming...
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Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218441 - 03/30/12 10:49 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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I do support the IDEA of "stand your ground" in principle, I would rather lose this argument because these two idiots that ALEC roped into writing Florida's version if the law screwed the pooch so thoroughly that we now have a Zimmerman problem and probably more Zimmermans on the way too.

And if it turns into a FLOOD of Zimmerman incidents it will set back stand your ground AND carry laws at least five years if not completely. In fact, this whole thing could destroy the entire Second Amendment altogether, and that ain't a good thing at all.

We could turn into AUSTRALIA before the end of the year unless some smart people rip apart all these laws and rewrite them with some common sense built in.

So trust me, I really DO want to "lose this argument" in the worst way.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#218444 - 03/30/12 11:47 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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I do not agree with "stand your ground" -- it is merely an excuse for murder.

When faced with danger, one should seek an exit. If none, then reasonable defensive actions are justified.

Why does that formula, in place for generations, not still show wisdom? What has changed that we are not justified to go beyond this and authorize violence when not needed?
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#218456 - 03/31/12 06:57 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ted Remington Offline
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Amen, Phil.
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#218476 - 03/31/12 01:46 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Ardy Offline
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I just want to make sure that I understand Florida legal interpretation.... you can chase someone and generally annoy them..... until they finally hit you, then you can kill them under the stand your own ground law?
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#218483 - 03/31/12 03:11 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
jgw Offline
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I have not read this topic and am seriously sick and tired of it on tv. This is an exercise for a simple mind. Florida wrote a law that said; "If you THINK you are threatened you have the right to kill the one that threatens" - nothing more, nothing less. What happens is that a self appointed watcher was told to back off, he did not, and ended up killing the one he said threatened him. That's it! There is NOTHING

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#218484 - 03/31/12 03:16 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
jgw Offline
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I have not read this topic and am seriously sick and tired of it on tv. This is an exercise for a simple mind. Florida wrote a law that said; "If you THINK you are threatened you have the right to kill the one that threatens" - nothing more, nothing less. What happens is that a self appointed watcher was told to back off, he did not, and ended up killing the one he said threatened him. That's it! There is NOTHING more!

Race?
Not pertinent.

Did the killer do anything wrong?
Nope - just followed the law.

Is there anything to prove?
Nope - the killer said he thought he was threatened and did what he did.

Is the law bad?
You bet.

That's about it folks! Any further debate, discussion, anguish, yelling, angst, etc. is off topic.

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#218485 - 03/31/12 03:27 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: jgw]
olyve Offline
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Loc: Athens, Ga.
Originally Posted By: jgw
Is there anything to prove?
Nope - the killer said he thought he was threatened and did what he did.

Is the law bad?
You bet.
Give a self appointed a*shole vigilante a gun and give him permission to shoot when he felt threatened. Bad law? You think?
Dear god. He'da shot up half my neighborhood and we almost never have any serious crime here. It's called "diversity".
(I'm not counting smoking pot. Ok?)

I haven't read the thread either. eek
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#218490 - 03/31/12 03:53 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Ardy Offline
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As far as I understand it, the "guard" felt threatened as soon as he saw a young black kid in a hoodie
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#218492 - 03/31/12 03:59 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ardy]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
As far as I understand it, the "guard" felt threatened as soon as he saw a young black kid in a hoodie

Exactly.
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#218493 - 03/31/12 03:59 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
california rick Offline
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Hi Olyve glad to see you're posting! ThumbsUp
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#218518 - 03/31/12 07:20 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
I do not agree with "stand your ground" -- it is merely an excuse for murder.

When faced with danger, one should seek an exit. If none, then reasonable defensive actions are justified.



A properly written stand your ground law reads pretty much like that Phil. The difference between a stand your ground law and what stood in place "for generations" (actually NOT generations) was that prior to SYG many states required PROOF that the subject had excercised a "DUTY TO RETREAT" and if no proof existed they were at risk of being charged with manslaughter or murder even if they were being attacked.

Some states had such onerous gun laws that nothing mattered, if you HAD a gun in your possession, even in your own home, you were toast, like in Washington DC.

Instead, a properly written SYG law simply says "don't START nuthin, won't BE nuthin" or in expanded terms, if you are on your property, at your place of business, in your car or anywhere that you have a right to be, IF YOU ARE CONFRONTED and attacked you have the right to use deadly force to save your life WITHOUT having to show proof that you excercised a DUTY TO RETREAT, which was almost impossible to prove!

What's missing from these stupidly written CURRENT SYG laws is any admonition that says you GIVE UP that right to stand your ground and use deadly force IF you are the one who pursues and confronts someone who is where THEY have a right to be.
(not on your property, not entering your place of work without permission, not entering your car or invading your personal space)

In other words, Zimmerman is squirming through a very large loophole which only exists because there was no clear demarcation that says he has forfeited his right to self defense by sticking his nose in someone else's business.

Phil, I say all the above because it is very much worth noting that the two authors of Florida's new SYG law both said that Zimmerman deserves NO protection under THEIR law.

The problem is, they failed to codify that in black and white when they wrote the dumb thing. In essence they've possibly implicated themselves by admitting their failure.

The reality is, it's Trayvon Martin who should have had the right to stand HIS ground when pursued and confronted by Zimmerman, who had no legal authority to pursue him, except in his own mind.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#218555 - 03/31/12 10:24 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
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I simply do not get this. The law is clear. If you THINK you are threatened then you get to kill the threatener. Nothing else is involved. The only amazing thing is that more people haven't been killed. You can kill your wife, for instance, and all you gotta do is say you THOUGHT she threatened you. Same for killing a husband, the neighbor, the neighbor's children, politicians, whoever. Only YOU know what you thought, there are no other issues.

Those who live in one of these stand your ground states should be glad your state legislators are so concerned for your well being - well almost?

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#218557 - 03/31/12 10:35 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Jeff
Quote:
or in expanded terms, if you are on your property, at your place of business, in your car or anywhere that you have a right to be, IF YOU ARE CONFRONTED and attacked you have the right to use deadly force to save your life WITHOUT having to show proof that you excercised a DUTY TO RETREAT
raises a different issue. Laws have always been different under circumstances of your home, and frequently your car or other space you have the exclusive legal right to occupy.
Defense of home
Duty to retreat
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#218558 - 03/31/12 10:37 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: california rick]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Originally Posted By: california rick
Hi Olyve glad to see you're posting! ThumbsUp

Ditto!!!
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Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
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#218562 - 03/31/12 11:03 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
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Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Jeff
Quote:
or in expanded terms, if you are on your property, at your place of business, in your car or anywhere that you have a right to be, IF YOU ARE CONFRONTED and attacked you have the right to use deadly force to save your life WITHOUT having to show proof that you excercised a DUTY TO RETREAT
raises a different issue. Laws have always been different under circumstances of your home, and frequently your car or other space you have the exclusive legal right to occupy.
Defense of home
Duty to retreat


But one reason why the concept of "stand your ground" caught the eye of people is because "duty to retreat" had become so overbearing that prosecutors were turning busted down interior doors into "insufficient evidence of duty to retreat".

Short of chewing your way through a brick wall and offering up part of one of your hands to a knife blade, people who had shot someone in self defense were becoming increasingly worried that their cases would not hold up satisfactorily enough in court.

And finally, enough people decided to say "a lot of these cases should not even result in an arrest because the evidence was clearly in favor of the defendant".

Duty to retreat was being abused in too many cases where the shootings were justified, prosecutors were also resorting to saying that because a shooting did not happen completely within the confines of a dwelling that self defense was not justified, all manner of minutae was being turned into a means of entrapping law abiding people who were simply saving their own lives or the lives of loved ones.

Phil, I technically understand and agree with the idea of matching force for force, i.e. using fists to repel fists instead of resorting to a gun for instance. But then you open up a whole new can of worms.
If the attacker is carrying a concealed weapon of some kind and happens to be better with their fists than the victim, and succeeds in knocking the victim unconscious and the victim awakens to find the attacker standing over them with a gun, is it not too late to figure out if there was a reasonable match of force for force?

If the attacker is coming at me and is wearing the kind of clothing where I can tell they're not armed (tight tee shirt and shorts, no telltale sign of a weapon in their pocket)then, if I am not overwhelmed with fear I know I can avoid using a firearm.

But Phil, are we not then putting so much pressure on a victim that it now adds to the likelihood that the victim will be unable to defend themselves AT ALL, when the reality is, the attacker has no business attacking.

Who is in the wrong again, Phil?
The attacker is!

No Phil, the concept of stand your ground is a good one in principle, provided the circumstances in which one is allowed to use deadly force are clearly defined and better yet the circumstances where one GIVES UP that right are even better defined.

And the beauty of it all is, defining where you give up those rights is a very simple thing:

If you started something, you have no right to claim self defense if it was reasonable to expect you NOT to start something.

It was entirely reasonable to expect Zimmerman to leave Martin alone. It was entirely reasonable to expect Zimmerman to understand that by pursuing and confronting Martin he was forfeiting his self defense rights.

And it was entirely reasonable to expect the police to take all that into consideration and make an arrest.

And Florida's law, by admission of its own authors, makes no provision to define where people like Zimmerman are CLEARLY in the wrong.

The concept and principle are fine, deadly force is reasonable.
Poorly written laws are what's at fault for not defining the rules under which deadly force is okay, and not okay, in very SIMPLE and EASY TO UNDERSTAND terms.

"Don't START nuthin, won't BE nuthin."
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#218715 - 04/01/12 09:51 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
olyve Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
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Loc: Athens, Ga.
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Originally Posted By: california rick
Hi Olyve glad to see you're posting! ThumbsUp

Ditto!!!

Thanks guys. Truly.
I'm around.
I'll jump in when I see one where I might have something to say that might add a new dimension.
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#218716 - 04/01/12 11:05 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
california rick Offline
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I don't see how SYG law affects this case when Zimmerman was the pursuer. 911 clearly stated: We don't need you to do that.

I hope the guy gets life in prison.
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#220966 - 04/25/12 06:24 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
numan Offline
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Zimmerman's Wife Admits Z Used Self-Defense Excuse Years Ago

Quote:
George Zimmerman took the witness stand at his own bond hearing this morning in a Florida courtroom....
Zimmerman said, "I thought he was a little bit younger than I am."
Yet on the 911 call Zimmerman knew Trayvon was no where near Z's age.
---- 911 dispatcher: "How old would you say he is?"
---- Zimmerman: "He's got something on his shirt. About like his late teens."
---- 911 dispatcher: "Late teens?"
---- Zimmerman: "Uh, huh."

Zimmerman is 28 years old and he will be 29 years old in October.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#220968 - 04/25/12 07:12 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: california rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Originally Posted By: california rick
I don't see how SYG law affects this case when Zimmerman was the pursuer. 911 clearly stated: We don't need you to do that.

I hope the guy gets life in prison.


In my humble opinion the reason Zimmerman had cuts and bruises is because Trayvon Martin was standing HIS ground. He didn't know who Zimmerman was, the guy didn't have a badge and didn't identify as law enforcement and Trayvon wasn't on his property.

Zimmerman started the whole ball rolling.
It's poorly written law with too many loopholes.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

---Benjamin Bratton

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#220980 - 04/25/12 08:46 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6349
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: california rick
I don't see how SYG law affects this case when Zimmerman was the pursuer. 911 clearly stated: We don't need you to do that.

I hope the guy gets life in prison.


In my humble opinion the reason Zimmerman had cuts and bruises is because Trayvon Martin was standing HIS ground. He didn't know who Zimmerman was, the guy didn't have a badge and didn't identify as law enforcement and Trayvon wasn't on his property.

Zimmerman started the whole ball rolling.
It's poorly written law with too many loopholes.

That's right, if Martin had a gun he could have shot Zimmerman dead and been innocent of any wrongdoing as a result of standing his ground in the face of a perceived threat.

Whose dipshite idea was this law, anyway? They should be prosecuted right along with Zimmerman.
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#220981 - 04/25/12 08:48 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
Whose dipshite idea was this law, anyway?

That "individual" - the NRA.
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#220986 - 04/25/12 09:11 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: california rick]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Whose dipshite idea was this law, anyway?

That "individual" - the NRA.

Riigghht... I 'member now.
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#220993 - 04/26/12 08:29 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline
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Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Zimmerman now must live in a world full of people who hate him.
A world that black people have lived in for a long time.
Opportunities will be denied, employment limited, people will look at him with suspicion, he will be tolerated in some circles, welcomed into very few.
Trayvon Martin didn't have to die. Zimmerman chose to kill him
There should be no law which allows this to happen.

Listing any number of crimes by black people against whites doesn't make this or them any more right or wrong. This was a lynching for crimes only imagined by a lone vigilante.
Sure , there is plenty of hatred by blacks against whites, but it is based on over two centuries of enslavement, abuse, and denied opportunities, a result of living in a world full of people who hate you, a world where opportunities are denied, where employment is limited. Not for anything they themseles did, but because their ancestors were brought here in chains, subhumans worked to death because their lives were worthless. White folks think they should have risen above all this by now.
But white folks have yet to rise above their belief that white skin somehow makes them superior, that somehow they are the victims.
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#220994 - 04/26/12 08:41 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Greger]
Ma_Republican Offline
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Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6330
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Greger
But white folks have yet to rise above their belief that white skin somehow makes them superior, that somehow they are the victims.


God Damn I am so sorry for having light skin. Do you think that the President's fictional son would forgive my short coming? Do you think that white guy in Baltimore who got beaten and stripped naked feels better knowing that it was done to avenge Trayvon? Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.
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#220996 - 04/26/12 09:22 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ma_Republican]
2wins Offline
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7614
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: Greger
But white folks have yet to rise above their belief that white skin somehow makes them superior, that somehow they are the victims.


God Damn I am so sorry for having light skin. Do you think that the President's fictional son would forgive my short coming? Do you think that white guy in Baltimore who got beaten and stripped naked feels better knowing that it was done to avenge Trayvon? Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.
whoa. whoa. whoa. did i read that right? are you saying that you're better behaved because you're white? because if that's not your meaning here, then you might want to reconsider the wording. if that is your meaning, then go ahead and take that racist moniker, where it and be honest.
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#220997 - 04/26/12 09:23 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ma_Republican]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.

Yes, another poor white victim of hate crimes perpetrated by blacks against whites. You make my point better than I ever could and speak loudly for the Political Faction you represent.

As I said, you can list as many crimes against whites by blacks as you wish, it makes no crime more right or wrong, but these will never supersede what has been done to blacks by whites.
Are your black colleagues at work less well behaved than yourself? Are there no ill behaved whites?
Your racism is showing Mr. Republican.
Quote:
Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.

Zimmerman simply assumed, like yourself, that Martin was doing something wrong because blacks don't behave as well as they should and must be put in their place.
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#220998 - 04/26/12 09:30 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6349
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: Greger
But white folks have yet to rise above their belief that white skin somehow makes them superior, that somehow they are the victims.


God Damn I am so sorry for having light skin. Do you think that the President's fictional son would forgive my short coming? Do you think that white guy in Baltimore who got beaten and stripped naked feels better knowing that it was done to avenge Trayvon? Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.

You didn't provide a link, here's what I found when I searched for baltimore trayvon beating. It doesn't appear to make your point, whatever that was...
brothers on neighborhood watch accused of beating

BTW, I didn't know you had light skin!!
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#221000 - 04/26/12 10:19 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ma_Republican]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greger
But white folks have yet to rise above their belief that white skin somehow makes them superior, that somehow they are the victims.

Over the past weekend, I saw a documentary from Netflix titled, Blood in your Face. (The premise is that only 'white' people can blush.)

Gregor, you have stated the Aryan Nation position beautifully.

The Aryan Nation uses verses from the King James Bible to support their ridiculous position(s).

sidebar: I now have a better understanding of American Evangelicals as well. The two groups are not entirely different.
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#221001 - 04/26/12 10:23 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ma_Republican]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
...Do you think that white guy in Baltimore who got beaten and stripped naked feels better knowing that it was done to avenge Trayvon? Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.

'Better behaved' than those damn monkeys?!? coffee
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#221004 - 04/26/12 10:49 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
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Loc: Florida
Ma_Republican is of Irish and Polish descent I believe, did you know there were also Irish slaves sent to chop sugarcane until they dropped dead in the British West Indies too? They were sent there by the English for crimes real and imagined.
We all know how well the English and Irish get along....
And we all know how poorly behaved the Irish are, always drinking and fighting and such.

I won't say a word about the Polish, but there was a good reason they were the butt of all those jokes......

In many ways bigotry is just a natural part of the human condition. It's something each of us must deal with personally.
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#221008 - 04/26/12 11:07 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
This thread is getting out of hand. Out of control. Out of sensibility and sensitivity.

Only admins have the authority to close a thread or I would close this one; but I as a moderator would like all of you to take a step or two back, take a deep breath, and take a break from posting here until there's been a cooldown period. Say until tomorrow?

I cannot make you do stop posting, but several of you are treading on some very bad ground. Don't sink yourselves, guys.

Ted Remington, posting as moderator
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#221015 - 04/26/12 11:36 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: california rick]
Ma_Republican Offline
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Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6330
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
...Do you think that white guy in Baltimore who got beaten and stripped naked feels better knowing that it was done to avenge Trayvon? Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.

'Better behaved' than those damn monkeys?!? coffee


F'ing moronic thing to say! What would ever make you try to put those words in my mouth?

For the record, I know how to behave acceptably in this screwed up society. It doesn't take extreme smarts to know how to act, it only takes respect for your surroundings. There is this liberal idea that they are the superior race on the planet Earth, that they are better than everybody else because they keep screwing the country up and still get reelected. So here is the choice you have to make, do you want to treat a certain segment of the population like children who have to be coddled, or do you want to treat them like adults? People get killed all the time, people get killed for breaking down in the wrong section of town, they get killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and they get killed because some moron decides he has to be a super hero in his gated community. What happened to Trayvon is no different than any number of people who get killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, yet because the racists and hucksters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton decide they can get a little pub, or Barack Obama decides that he can play politics with it, this guy has become something more than he actually was. He was a guy who should be going to school today, but he was killed by some stupido with a fing gun for being out of place in a gated community. Did he attack Zimmerman? Did Zimmerman attack him? Who knows, but what has become completely clear is this has gotten out of control.

I am sick of hearing about it, sick of reading about it, sick of it being used as an excuse. Dershowitz thinks this guy get off, who knows? But let's assume that he does for a moment, what do you suppose will happen? Peace aned tranquility or hate a violence? History say the later will happen, and history say the violence will be ignored. Whose fault will it be for the violence? Sharpton's mostly, but Jackson and Obama have stuck their toes into this racist water and did nothing to defuse it.

I will behave, I will stay calm and avoid those areas where being in the wrong place at the wrong time could lead to my becoming a statistic. Momma raised ugly children, not stupid children.
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“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
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#221017 - 04/26/12 11:51 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ma_Republican]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36231
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
...Do you think that white guy in Baltimore who got beaten and stripped naked feels better knowing that it was done to avenge Trayvon? Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.

'Better behaved' than those damn monkeys?!? coffee


F'ing moronic thing to say! What would ever make you try to put those words in my mouth?statistic. Momma raised ugly children, not stupid children.

Oh please. You wrote 'better behaved' not me. I read a logical subtext before you back-peddled with a rather verbose posting in an attempt to defuse my post. Deal with it.
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#221022 - 04/26/12 12:38 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: california rick]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6330
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
...Do you think that white guy in Baltimore who got beaten and stripped naked feels better knowing that it was done to avenge Trayvon? Superior? Hell no, just better behaved.

'Better behaved' than those damn monkeys?!? coffee


F'ing moronic thing to say! What would ever make you try to put those words in my mouth?statistic. Momma raised ugly children, not stupid children.

Oh please. You wrote 'better behaved' not me. I read a logical subtext before you back-peddled with a rather verbose posting in an attempt to defuse my post. Deal with it.


Yeah, I forgot about that liberal talent for reading between the lines and getting it totally wrong, then compounding the situation byclaiming moral superiority.

Typical liberal, all wish, no reality.
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A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
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#221024 - 04/26/12 12:42 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Well let Ranters and Lurkers decide for themselves if your rebuttals are sufficient. smile
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#221025 - 04/26/12 12:49 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6349
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
... he was killed by some stupido with a fing gun for being out of place in a gated community.

Really? Why, exactly was Martin "out of place"?

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
I am sick of hearing about it, sick of reading about it...
Curious that you would keep reading and posting on a thread that makes you so sick. tonbricks
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#221034 - 04/26/12 04:49 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
2wins Offline
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7614
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
how was he out of place? i thought his parents lived there. was i wrong? i haven't followed the details as closely as ma.
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sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#221036 - 04/26/12 05:10 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: logtroll]
california rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36231
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
... he was killed by some stupido with a fing gun for being out of place in a gated community.

Really? Why, exactly was Martin "out of place"?

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
I am sick of hearing about it, sick of reading about it...
Curious that you would keep reading and posting on a thread that makes you so sick. tonbricks

Clearly Ma's mother raised non-stupid kids so as not to post their most secret inner thoughts on the 'net. coffee
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#221508 - 05/02/12 10:39 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10515
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll

That's right, if Martin had a gun he could have shot Zimmerman dead and been innocent of any wrongdoing as a result of standing his ground in the face of a perceived threat.



Uhhhh, MAYBE NOT! shocked
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"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

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#221509 - 05/02/12 11:03 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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If all the other reasons aren't enough, this clearly says "stay away from Florida"

Crazy people, present company excluded, of course.
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#221517 - 05/03/12 01:24 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10515
Loc: Downey, California
Mighty interesting to see how a "different" judge and a "different" group of people view this incident, especially when you consider the fact that there wasn't even anyone injured or killed, and when one considers the fact that the act was committed by a person who was....uhhh...errr..."different".

I guess when "different" people stand their ground, they get a "different" result, yes?


Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (05/03/12 01:25 AM)
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

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#221521 - 05/03/12 02:19 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20639
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Why did we not let the South secede?
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Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#221533 - 05/03/12 08:57 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6349
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: logtroll

That's right, if Martin had a gun he could have shot Zimmerman dead and been innocent of any wrongdoing as a result of standing his ground in the face of a perceived threat.



Uhhhh, MAYBE NOT! shocked

Clearly, this is an issue of the fine print lurking somewhere...
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"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#221537 - 05/03/12 09:58 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11932
I'd say this is typical of the "divergent" application of the law in Florida, as Florida law enforcement can be so "colorful." She didn't shoot at him, which should have pushed the answer in the other direction. Instead she is in worse shape because she didn't kill him. I think this is one of those situations where a prosecutor overcharges to get a plea deal, then unexpectedly gets the result they charged when the deal doesn't happen.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#221539 - 05/03/12 10:50 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Why did we not let the South secede?

We've been asking that question for 150 years...

Like everything else it can be blamed on the Republican Party.
If those idiots in South Carolina hadn't attacked Ft. Sumter it would have been a different world. Not necessarily a better world but certainly a different one.

Floridians per se are not crazy, it's just that the warm weather and reasonable cost of living here attracts a lot of riffraff from the Northern Alliance that we'd just as soon stayed home.

There is a story of a time when Florida attempted to keep northerners from migrating to our fair state. Migrants were stopped at the border and questioned about their livelihoods.
One such gentleman in the queue when asked what he did for a living replied "Pilot." and was allowed to enter the state. The next in line replied "Wood cutter" and was told he didn't qualify. He then replied "But how is he going to pile it if I don't cut it?"
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#221571 - 05/03/12 03:12 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Greger]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Why did we not let the South secede?
We've been asking that question for 150 years...

If those idiots in South Carolina hadn't attacked Ft. Sumter it would have been a different world. Not necessarily a better world but certainly a different one.

Those damn-fool Southern hotheads can certainly be criticized for the timing of their attack, but eventually they would have needed to do something about Fort Sumter. It would have been intolerable for a hostile foreign power to maintain a military installation controlling the mouth of one of the most important southern harbors.

Quote:
Floridians per se are not crazy, it's just that the warm weather and reasonable cost of living here attracts a lot of riffraff from the Northern Alliance that we'd just as soon stayed home.

As a native Angeleno, I felt the same way about the interlopers who came to California from the more backward regions of the Federal Union.
I have come to feel the same way about the Albertans who come to British Columbia, bringing with them their backward, Yankee-influenced thinking and their lousy driving "skills".
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#221590 - 05/03/12 05:19 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: numan]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#221592 - 05/03/12 05:43 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
AustinRanter Offline
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Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 3643
Loc: Austin, Texas
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins


Uhhhh,welp. Gezzz. Just not much to say about this dude in the article. He says it all...and then some. Insanity comes in all forms, shapes, etc. It just pops out at random moments.

Einstein said something like, ~If something is even remotely possible, sooner or later it will happen.~

Let's do the math. There's 7 billion people engaged in some type of behavior every second of every day. Those behaviors mixed with other behaviors...well, it's anybody's guess as to what the outcome will be. Hell, I've gotten in enough trouble with the consequences of my own behaviors interacting with my own behaviors.

Dunno, Phil. Crazy is becoming the norm. What will we be calling "crazy" when all of the norms today are eventually crazy? Will be able to recognize crazy when we all become crazy from living in a world destined to be nothing but crazy?
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