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#217840 - 03/25/12 03:40 PM The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War
numan Offline
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Well, well, well, even Foreign Policy Magazine can occasionally recognize the obvious -- though, of course, they carefully avoid the role of war profiteers -- and the matter of who got the oil !!

The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War

From the article :

Lesson #1: The United States lost.

Lesson #2: It's not that hard to hijack the United States into a war.

Lesson #3: The United States gets in big trouble when the "marketplace of ideas" breaks down and when the public and our leadership do not have an open debate about what to do.

Lesson #6: It's very hard to improvise an occupation.

Lesson #7: Don't be surprised when adversaries act to defend their own interests, and in ways we won't like.

Lesson #8: Counterinsurgency warfare is ugly and inevitably leads to war crimes, atrocities, or other forms of abuse.


[emphasis added]


Edited by numan (03/25/12 03:45 PM)
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#217845 - 03/25/12 04:20 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: numan
'

From the article :

[b]Lesson #1: The United States lost.



The above "headline" is an absurd summary of the point the article makes.... which is that anything short of a dominant victory will be indistinguishable from a loss. Gulf War #1 was a victory because G Bush Sr. understood this point.

It is a concept well worth remembering in connection with how we may choose to deal with Iran.
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#217846 - 03/25/12 04:22 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: numan
'

Lesson #6: It's very hard to improvise an occupation.


and planning an occupation may not remarkably improve the final outcome.
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#217847 - 03/25/12 04:28 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
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By the way, I would say there is one more lesson that we seem never to learn.....


You really cannot expect your military commanders to come back and report that they have miserably failed and that they have no clue how to turn things around to achieve a definable success sufficient to disengage.
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#217855 - 03/25/12 04:57 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: Ardy]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
By the way, I would say there is one more lesson that we seem never to learn.....

You really cannot expect your military commanders to come back and report that they have miserably failed and that they have no clue how to turn things around to achieve a definable success sufficient to disengage.
I would say that your point can be extended to a more general principle :

Until proven otherwise, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS assume that a person in a position of authority is lying like hell to you !!

Corollary: The higher the position of authority, the more vicious, deep and vile are the lies.
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#217862 - 03/25/12 07:13 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: numan
'

Until proven otherwise, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS assume that a person in a position of authority is lying like hell to you !!

Corollary: The higher the position of authority, the more vicious, deep and vile are the lies.


I really think that misses the point....
I can imagine a warden or his prisoners lying. I do not think a warden is inherently more inclined to tell vicious lies than are his prisoners.

OTOH, people are people... and if there is a self interest to tell a lie, a person is more inclined to lie.... regardless of position.
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#217918 - 03/26/12 02:21 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: Ardy]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
Originally Posted By: numan
Until proven otherwise, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS assume that a person in a position of authority is lying like hell to you !!
Corollary: The higher the position of authority, the more vicious, deep and vile are the lies.
I really think that misses the point....
I can imagine a warden or his prisoners lying. I do not think a warden is inherently more inclined to tell vicious lies than are his prisoners.

Dear, dear, Ardy!!
That depends crucialy on what type of things he is prone to lie about!! · · wink
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#217923 - 03/26/12 02:43 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
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Interesting the "lessons" that were elided, like "don't listen to ambitious exiles."
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#217932 - 03/26/12 04:11 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
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Numan:

I just looked back at that article, and I found this:

Quote:
Lesson #5: Don't listen to ambitious exiles. The case for war was strengthened by misleading testimony from various Iraqi exiles, who had an obvious interest in persuading Washington to carry them to power.
emphasis added

I don't believe NWP was making an attempt at humor. Rather, he was pointing out that when you chose to list the top 10 lessons you omitted several, including the one above which is entitled exactly the same as what NWP had in quotation marks.

If you still believe that he needs censure, you are invited to go to his post, click on notify, and tell the moderators why he should be censured for making a direct quote of the article on which you started this thread.

Otherwise, perhaps an apology to NWP is in order.

Ted Remington, fellow Ranter
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#217935 - 03/26/12 04:38 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Oops, missed Ted's follow up. What he said.
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#217942 - 03/26/12 05:14 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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How foolish of me! I thought NWP was trying to be humorous when he was being deadly serious!

I do indeed apologize to NWP for thinking that he had made something up. I had completely forgotten point 5 !!

I shall remove the posting.
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#217945 - 03/26/12 05:19 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Thank you. smile
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217948 - 03/26/12 05:25 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: Ardy]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
Originally Posted By: numan
'

Lesson #6: It's very hard to improvise an occupation.


and planning an occupation may not remarkably improve the final outcome.
That was Lesson #9: Better "planning" may not be the answer. I don't think that it is a point very well made, here, though, because there was no planning for the occupation of Iraq - a major fault of the Bush administration.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217949 - 03/26/12 05:38 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: NW Ponderer]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

...there was no planning for the occupation of Iraq - a major fault of the Bush administration.

I am not sure that this is true.
I think a strong argument can be made that the occupation of Iraq was very well planned -- to crush, impoverish, confuse, intimidate, and make desperate the Iraqi people.

As I understand it, the State Department had very sensible, well thought out plans for the occupation of Iraq. The Bush Administration simply chose to throw them in the waste basket.
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#217952 - 03/26/12 06:08 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Oh, that is absolutely true. The Phase IV plan, that had been developed since Schwartzkopf's tenure as Centcom Commander, Gulf War I, was deliberately rejected. You may remember Jay Garner was originally appointed, and he advocated for a number of things that Bremer immediately overturned (maintaining the Iraqi army and administrative services, for example), preferring "de-Baathification." Not all Americans are idiots, and not all military planners are negligent, which was my point. I was privy to some of the unused plans, and was appalled at the amateurish behavior of the Bush-Rumsfeld cabal. Tens of thousands of lives were lost as a direct result of their criminal incompetence.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#217965 - 03/26/12 07:57 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ardy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Oh, that is absolutely true. The Phase IV plan, that had been developed since Schwartzkopf's tenure as Centcom Commander, Gulf War I, was deliberately rejected. You may remember Jay Garner was originally appointed, and he advocated for a number of things that Bremer immediately overturned (maintaining the Iraqi army and administrative services, for example), preferring "de-Baathification." Not all Americans are idiots, and not all military planners are negligent, which was my point. I was privy to some of the unused plans, and was appalled at the amateurish behavior of the Bush-Rumsfeld cabal. Tens of thousands of lives were lost as a direct result of their criminal incompetence.


Yes, I find it to have an almost tragic fascination. We must always wonder what things could have been like if the administration had followed the state department plan.... in some ways it is hard to imagine an occupation of Iraq that turns out well... but we will never know for sure.

In any case,
even if we acknowledge that G W Bush was not an intellectual heavyweight. Still, the people around him were not stupid. So I do sort of wonder what drove them to make such catastrophically counter productive decisions. Was it ideology? Was it the battle for power between state and defense departments? Was it some sort of magical thinking? Was it faith that a total reset based upon market principals must certainly succeed? Maybe a combination of many of the factors? What do YOU think NWP?
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#217999 - 03/27/12 07:39 AM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
california rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
...there was no planning for the occupation of Iraq - a major fault of the Bush administration.

Well, that all depends on the definition of 'occupation.' There was definite planning of long-term military bases.

Planning of occupying civilian life? No planning much there. I agree that the Bush Administration messed that one up. The Iraqi's still only have electricity for only hours a day.
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#218031 - 03/27/12 01:16 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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The Bushites were very careful to guard the Iraqi Ministry of Oil. They made no provision to guard the cultural heritage of humankind in the Iraqi National Museum or in the National Library.

Hitler was determined to wipe out the cultural heritage of Poland and Russia. The Bush Cabal's actions in Iraq look completely similar.
In my opinion, there was not the slightest desire to help Iraq or the Iraqi people -- I think the Bushites consciously wished to pulverize the Iraqi people, make Iraq a crushed, helpless satellite state, and accomplish in fact what Hitler only dreamed of doing in Poland and Russia.

IMO, they are war criminals.
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#218034 - 03/27/12 01:54 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
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"On April 9 Baghdad fell, ending President Hussein's 24-year rule. " Source

On May 16, 2003, AP posted an article showing a US military member standing guard duty over treasures from the Baghdad Museum. The article states that the extent of the losses was nowhere near what was commonly believed to be the case, and that many of the most important antiquities were carefully stowed away by curators and employees of the museum against the day when the Americans left the country.

A general discussion and history of the weeks that the museum was vulnerable to looting, found here, indicates that American troops attempted to fulfill a mission to protect the museum but were thwarted by armed Iraqi forces using the museum as a sniper nest.

The claim is made above that the failure to guard the cultural heritage was equivalent to the actions of Hitler, who "was determined to wipe out the cultural heritage of Poland and Russia." Such a claim is arguably false in and of itself since there was not, as was the case during World War II, any known effort on the part of the US to "wipe out" the culture of the Iraqi people.

If indeed there was destruction of Iraq's cultural heritage, it was at the hands of Iraqis, and not the hands of the United States. To make an assertion that the actions of the US and of the Nazis were "completely similar" is in my view, not only libelous in nature, but downright irresponsible and knowingly false as well.
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#218037 - 03/27/12 02:43 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
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I follow Ted's analysis here regarding equivalency. It is, however, a responsibility under international law to plan for occupation, to include protection of the cultural artifacts of the civilian population. To the extent that the administration did not do so, it violated international law. To the extent that it did so deliberately, it was criminal.

Now, earlier Ardy asked what I thought the motivation for lack of planning was. In a sense, I would say, "all of the above." The plans were not State's responsibility, but administration is a shared responsibility, and there was a distinct lack of cooperation -not initially at the local/implementation level, but at the top - but it worked its way down over time. This was mostly hubris. Rumsfeld, in my opinion two of the worst SecDefs we have ever had, had an ego of monstrous proportions and would brook no discussion, much less disagreement, with his pronouncements. And he was grossly incompetent, and would not listen to his military advisors, thinking them all inferior. He relied, to the extent he relied on anyone, on his hand-picked yes-man deputies, like Feith and Wolfowitz, who were as ignorant and ego-driven as he was.
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#218040 - 03/27/12 03:00 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
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As far as motivation, I think it was a combination of ideology, magical thinking, and the supreme confidence of believing that whatever they did was right, whether they had any background or knowledge whatever. Thus, they refused to consider it an "occupation," notwithstanding the clear definitions in international law. Because it was not an occupation, in their minds, the requirements of international law did not apply to them, and they could make up whatever rules they wanted. This is the same thinking that allowed waterboarding to not be torture, and justified indefinite and secret detentions, also with no regard for history or international norms.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218051 - 03/27/12 04:03 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: NW Ponderer]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As far as motivation, I think it was a combination of ideology, magical thinking, and the supreme confidence of believing that whatever they did was right....

Hmm...
Isn't this pretty much what Hitler was criticized for?
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#218052 - 03/27/12 04:08 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: NW Ponderer]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It is, however, a responsibility under international law to plan for occupation, to include protection of the cultural artifacts of the civilian population. To the extent that the administration did not do so, it violated international law. To the extent that it did so deliberately, it was criminal.

Quite right, NWP.
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#218056 - 03/27/12 05:28 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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National Museum of Iraq

Quote:
In the months preceding the 2003 Iraq war, starting in December and January, various antiquities experts, including representatives from the American Council for Cultural Policy asked the Pentagon and the UK government to ensure the museum's safety from both combat and looting....

International reaction to the looting

The U.S. government was criticised for doing nothing to protect the museum after occupying Baghdad. Dr. Irving Finkel of the British Museum said the looting was "entirely predictable and could easily have been stopped." Martin E. Sullivan, chairman of the U.S. President's Advisory Committee on Cultural Property, and U.S. State Department cultural advisors Gary Vikan and Richard S. Lanier resigned in protest....
Dr. Donny George Youkhanna, General Director Research Studies for the Board of Antiquities in Iraq, said of the looting, "It's the crime of the century, because it affects the heritage of all mankind". After the U.S. Marines set up headquarters in Baghdad's Palestine Hotel, George said he went there to plead for troops to protect the remainder of the Museum collection, but no guards were sent for another three days.
emphasis added

Looting of the National Museum was not the only damage to the heritage of humankind due to the negligence and insensitivity of the United States regime. Among many, many other heart-breaking losses was the burning of the Iraq National Library and Archive -- to the eternal shame of the United States as long as there are any people left in the world who value civilization.
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#218057 - 03/27/12 05:31 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Iraq National Library and Archive

Quote:
“In April of 2003, the National Library and Archives, which was located directly across from the Ministry of Defense, had been burned and looted”. The burning and looting appeared to have taken place on two occasions: April 10 and April 12-13. In total, an estimated 60 percent of its total archival materials, 25 percent of its books, newspapers, rare books, and most of its historical photographs and maps were destroyed....
Before the destruction, the library and archives were reported to have held 417,000 books, 2,618 periodicals dating from the late Ottoman era to modern times, and a collection of 4,412 rare books and manuscripts.
emphasis added

In my opinion, and in the opinion of many notable people all over the world, the United States has absolutely no excuse for its lack of action in protecting these treasures of civilization. The Bush regime grossly violated International Law. It is behavior like this that has convinced so many people all over the world -- in my opinion, rightly so -- that the United States has become a violent, unprincipled, brutal, barbaric violator of civilization and decency.
In the Islamic world, a story of legendary tragedy, that equals or surpasses the horrors of the Crusaders' rape of Jerusalem, is the savage Mongol conquest and sack of Baghdad in 1258. Among all the horrors of that tragedy, one is remembered more that any other: the burning and destruction of the Great Library of the Abbasid Caliphate. Now the name of the United States will evermore be joined in barbarism with the Mongol Hordes.

Long after the United States of America has disappeared into the garbage bin of history, this will be remembered and remembered and remembered -- with disgust.


Edited by numan (03/27/12 05:46 PM)
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#218060 - 03/27/12 06:19 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
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numan:

Are you purposely being dense? The US did not commit these barbarisms. The Iraqis looted and burned their own national treasures. Either that or little gremlins were loose in the capital doing all of this.

Now. You say
Quote:
The Bush regime grossly violated International Law.


The basic instrument of international law that applies in this case is apparently the Hague Convention of 1907. However,

Quote:
Under the 1954 Hague Convention, occupying powers have an obligation to assist national authorities in preventing the looting of cultural sites. Although the United State is not a party to the Convention, it does recognize this principle in Baghdad.
http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/LawJournals/thurlow.pdf

We have gone over this issue here before, and it seems that you refuse to understand the overall logistics. During the entire period when the brunt of the looting and destruction occurred there were tag-ends of Iraqi military forces shooting at US troops. Baghdad City encompasses 873 square miles. There were about 30,000 troops involved in capturing the city. That comes out to just about 18.6 troops per acre in a city with massive looting, rioting, armed resistance, chaos.

And you conflate the cultural damage with the damage done in 1258 when the Mongols sacked and burned the entire city.

I believe your anti-Americanism is jerking your knees so hard that you cannot get your brain to accept anything close to reality.
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#218086 - 03/27/12 08:00 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: Ted Remington]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ted Remington
numan: Are you purposely being dense?

We must be more in tune with each other than we realize, Ted !
I was wondering exactly the same thing about you !

Quote:
The basic instrument of international law that applies in this case is apparently the Hague Convention of 1907.
I am afraid your knowledge about this matter is somewhat sketchy (see my next posting).

Quote:
We have gone over this issue here before, and it seems that you refuse to understand the overall logistics.
Gee, and it seemed to me that you demonstrate a touching naîveté in trusting the "information" you absorb from the mass media. But see postings further down.

Quote:
And you conflate the cultural damage with the damage done in 1258 when the Mongols sacked and burned the entire city.
If you were to read my posting accurately, you would see that I was comparing the destructions of two libraries. Also, I opined on how the events would be regarded down through history.

Quote:
I believe your anti-Americanism is jerking your knees so hard that you cannot get your brain to accept anything close to reality.
Another mystic demonstration of how similar we are to one another, Ted!! I was considering how your somewhat jingoistic Americanism might be veiling from you a few aspects of reality.
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#218088 - 03/27/12 08:12 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Protecting cultural property in Iraq:...tional law.

Quote:
The United States has joined numerous international treaties that provide limited protections for cultural property including: The Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, The Roerich Pact, the Fourth Geneva Convention, the UNESCO Convention of 1970, the World Heritage Convention, and the UNIDROIT Convention. In addition to these obligations, international customary laws of warfare also bind the United States.
...the 1954 Hague Convention, or Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict, became the first international treaty exclusively devoted to the protection of cultural property during war. Much of the 1954 Hague Convention builds upon the protections established in prior conventions. Since the passage of the 1954 Hague Convention, a number of other treaties have enhanced the protections afforded cultural property and emphasized the international and human rights foundations of cultural property. In 1966, the United Nations General Assembly adopted the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights....
My goodness, Ted, a lot has happened since 1907, hasn't it?
But I shouldn't assume that you have noticed it, should I?

Quote:
The 1972 Convention for the Protection of the World Cultural and Natural Heritage created a new avenue for protection of immovable property during wartime and reaffirms the internationalist values of the 1954 Hague Convention. Article 6 holds that the member-parties have an obligation to cooperate and must "give their help in the identification, protection, conservation, and presentation" of international cultural and natural heritage. Parties, including the United States, are forbidden from taking "measures which might ... directly or indirectly" damage or destroy listed sites. Recently, in 1999, the international community harmonized the 1954 Hague Convention with many of the customary international law principles in the Geneva Protocols. The result -- the Second Protocol to the Hague Convention -- dramatically expands the scope of cultural property protection during armed conflicts.
emphases added.
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#218090 - 03/27/12 08:16 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Quote:
Shortly after the looting began, the curator of the museum, Mr. Muhammed, appealed to American military forces in the area to stop the looting. Around noon, several soldiers and a tank accompanied Mr. Muhammed to the Museum and opened fire over the heads of looters, temporarily bringing a halt to the destruction. Unfortunately, the American soldiers did not remain. According to Mr. Muhammed, the looters soon returned to the Museum where they continued picking over the collection for the next day and a half. The National Museum was not the only victim of rampaging Iraqi mobs in the days following the destabilization of the Hussein regime. The regional museum at Mosul was ransacked, the National Library in Baghdad burned to the ground (and nearly all of its rare books, historical maps, and photos were lost)....
The reaction from military authorities and the Bush Administration in the immediate aftermath was slow and defensive. On April 16, 2003, almost a full week after the looting began, an American tank platoon was finally assigned to protect the National Museum. The Pentagon responded to international outrage over the preventable loss of Iraqi antiquities dismissively.

Emphasis added.


Edited by numan (03/27/12 08:18 PM)
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218095 - 03/27/12 08:34 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ken Condon Offline
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Registered: 06/13/07
Posts: 2908
Loc: Eugene, OR
To be sung to the tune of whatever works. Got a great one in my head but that doesn’t translate very well and how would one write music on this board anyway? …...A good old round melody works just fine:

If it weren't fer nu
We wouldn’t know what to do
To think- to piss-to- screw
He’s a fine old brain
Just a tad insane
But he’ll show us the way of the whirl-ed.

Refrain

That bad ol USA- just got in his way
And drove him to the land further north
He says he’s fine
almost subtly divine
but he misses his home of the free.

Refrain:

Oh nu--oh nu
Whatever shall we do?
Without your light-of piercing insight
We will hopefully muddle through…

But nu can’t quite know
That it’s ok to go
Back south were he once was born
And if Cali just don’t fit
There a place in betwixt
Called the land of Or re gone.

Repeat refrain....




Edited by Ken Condon (03/27/12 09:07 PM)
Edit Reason: 3rd verse works
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#218100 - 03/27/12 09:01 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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That's pretty good, Ken!! · · wink
I like it -- though the part about missing home isn't true.

I have often said that if I were doomed to live in the United States [shudder!] I would want to live in Oregon -- it is much more like Beautiful British Columbia than nasty old Washington state, ruled as it is by the wicked sorcerers of Boeing and Microsoft and Starbucks.
To my mind, only Portland, Oregon can be regarded as an American city in which it is possible to live like a human being -- if only they would get rid of that horrible spaghetti of freeways they are enveloped by!
When I was younger, Powell's Bookstore was a potent lure that occasionally inveigled me down into the Land of Mordor -- does it still exist? Then there is something good that still exists in the USA. · · wink


Edited by numan (03/27/12 09:14 PM)
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218108 - 03/27/12 09:19 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ken Condon Offline
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Registered: 06/13/07
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Powell’s is indeed still there. And somehow still has a great following. The printed word is not dead--yet.

But when will humans ever learn the lessons of war? Any war. We are, after, all still humans-so close to that line and so far from satisfaction.
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The past is always tense, the future perfect.

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#218130 - 03/27/12 09:56 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: Ken Condon]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ken Condon

We are, after, all still humans....

I don't know....When I look at some of the people in the Bush Administration, I'm not so sure.

They tempt me to believe some of the mythology about the Reptilians.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218199 - 03/28/12 03:24 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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THE NEW AMERICAN APPROACH TO CULTURAL HERITAGEPROTECTION

Quote:
...two events stand out in which the U.S. received heavy criticism for disregarding international obligations to protect items of Iraqi cultural heritage. First, the passive response by U.S. troops to the looting of the Iraq National Museum between April 9 and April 12, 2003 and secondly, the yearlong occupation and destruction of the ancient city of Babylon by American military forces.


The Barbarians came, and civilization was impoverished.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218200 - 03/28/12 03:25 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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BEFORE AMERICA


AFTER AMERICA

I was horrified when the Taliban blew up the Gandharan Era statues of Buddha at Bamiyan.
But after the colossal scale of destruction of civilization by the United States in Iraq, the Taliban look like pretty small potatoes in the Attila the Hun Category.


Edited by numan (03/28/12 03:45 PM)
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218227 - 03/28/12 11:14 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ken Condon Offline
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Registered: 06/13/07
Posts: 2908
Loc: Eugene, OR
That large statue in your first pic looks like a gigantic version of the icon Father Lankester Merrin dug from the earth in the film The Exorcist.

That aside-wars are not pretty and they will not end. At least not quite yet.
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#218235 - 03/29/12 05:57 AM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: Ken Condon]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Of course, there is no disclosure that the two pictures are not in the same room. Certainly the first picture is in the museum, but the second picture, who knows? No citation!
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#218273 - 03/29/12 02:54 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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That is so lame, Ted! It is an AP photo!

I feel sure that you saw pictures on TV of the wrecked interior of the museum when the scandal exploded.
Perhaps you have a talent for forgetting things which are unpleasant -- but no, not true. You can remember my postings.
Anyway, here is your citation :

War in Iraq -- Photo Gallery


Edited by numan (03/29/12 02:58 PM)
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218274 - 03/29/12 03:02 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?

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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218275 - 03/29/12 03:07 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?




Edited by numan (03/29/12 03:08 PM)
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218276 - 03/29/12 03:12 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?





Edited by numan (03/29/12 03:18 PM)
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218295 - 03/29/12 05:26 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Perpetrated by Iraqis against Iraqis.
_________________________
Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#218397 - 03/30/12 05:32 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Caused by Americans and permitted by Americans against the entire human race for all time to come.

Are you the sort of American who just doesn't care about that?


Edited by numan (03/30/12 05:38 PM)
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#218398 - 03/30/12 05:33 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Baghdad Museum Timeline

April 8-12, 2003: Baghdad Museum Evacuated and Locked
Quote:
The Baghdad Museum is evacuated and locked by its curators, who anticipate Baghdad being overrun by American troops within the next few hours. The last three on the grounds are the director, Dr. Jaber Khalil; the director of the State Board of Antiquities, Donny George; and the curator in charge of the museum’s collections, Dr. Nawala al-Mutawalli. They are forced to flee the grounds because Iraqi militiamen have sought cover around the museum, and they fear a firefight. The entire area is under US control by April 9; by April 10, the Army has left the area without posting guards. George pleads for the Army to return to prevent looting, but is ignored. Much of the looting that ravages the museum’s collection takes place on April 12 (see April 13, 2003). The international outcry against the looting is so fierce that the Army will begin posting guards on April 16.
emphasis added



Edited by numan (03/30/12 05:36 PM)
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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