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#217840 - 03/25/12 03:40 PM The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
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Well, well, well, even Foreign Policy Magazine can occasionally recognize the obvious -- though, of course, they carefully avoid the role of war profiteers -- and the matter of who got the oil !!

The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War

From the article :

Lesson #1: The United States lost.

Lesson #2: It's not that hard to hijack the United States into a war.

Lesson #3: The United States gets in big trouble when the "marketplace of ideas" breaks down and when the public and our leadership do not have an open debate about what to do.

Lesson #6: It's very hard to improvise an occupation.

Lesson #7: Don't be surprised when adversaries act to defend their own interests, and in ways we won't like.

Lesson #8: Counterinsurgency warfare is ugly and inevitably leads to war crimes, atrocities, or other forms of abuse.


[emphasis added]


Edited by numan (03/25/12 03:45 PM)
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#217845 - 03/25/12 04:20 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: numan
'

From the article :

[b]Lesson #1: The United States lost.



The above "headline" is an absurd summary of the point the article makes.... which is that anything short of a dominant victory will be indistinguishable from a loss. Gulf War #1 was a victory because G Bush Sr. understood this point.

It is a concept well worth remembering in connection with how we may choose to deal with Iran.
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#217846 - 03/25/12 04:22 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: numan
'

Lesson #6: It's very hard to improvise an occupation.


and planning an occupation may not remarkably improve the final outcome.
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"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
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#217847 - 03/25/12 04:28 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
By the way, I would say there is one more lesson that we seem never to learn.....


You really cannot expect your military commanders to come back and report that they have miserably failed and that they have no clue how to turn things around to achieve a definable success sufficient to disengage.
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#217855 - 03/25/12 04:57 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: Ardy]
numan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
By the way, I would say there is one more lesson that we seem never to learn.....

You really cannot expect your military commanders to come back and report that they have miserably failed and that they have no clue how to turn things around to achieve a definable success sufficient to disengage.
I would say that your point can be extended to a more general principle :

Until proven otherwise, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS assume that a person in a position of authority is lying like hell to you !!

Corollary: The higher the position of authority, the more vicious, deep and vile are the lies.
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#217862 - 03/25/12 07:13 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: numan
'

Until proven otherwise, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS assume that a person in a position of authority is lying like hell to you !!

Corollary: The higher the position of authority, the more vicious, deep and vile are the lies.


I really think that misses the point....
I can imagine a warden or his prisoners lying. I do not think a warden is inherently more inclined to tell vicious lies than are his prisoners.

OTOH, people are people... and if there is a self interest to tell a lie, a person is more inclined to lie.... regardless of position.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#217918 - 03/26/12 02:21 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: Ardy]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
Originally Posted By: numan
Until proven otherwise, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS assume that a person in a position of authority is lying like hell to you !!
Corollary: The higher the position of authority, the more vicious, deep and vile are the lies.
I really think that misses the point....
I can imagine a warden or his prisoners lying. I do not think a warden is inherently more inclined to tell vicious lies than are his prisoners.

Dear, dear, Ardy!!
That depends crucialy on what type of things he is prone to lie about!! · · wink
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#217923 - 03/26/12 02:43 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 13726
Interesting the "lessons" that were elided, like "don't listen to ambitious exiles."
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#217932 - 03/26/12 04:11 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Numan:

I just looked back at that article, and I found this:

Quote:
Lesson #5: Don't listen to ambitious exiles. The case for war was strengthened by misleading testimony from various Iraqi exiles, who had an obvious interest in persuading Washington to carry them to power.
emphasis added

I don't believe NWP was making an attempt at humor. Rather, he was pointing out that when you chose to list the top 10 lessons you omitted several, including the one above which is entitled exactly the same as what NWP had in quotation marks.

If you still believe that he needs censure, you are invited to go to his post, click on notify, and tell the moderators why he should be censured for making a direct quote of the article on which you started this thread.

Otherwise, perhaps an apology to NWP is in order.

Ted Remington, fellow Ranter
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#217935 - 03/26/12 04:38 PM Re: The Top 10 Lessons of the Iraq War [Re: numan]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 13726
Oops, missed Ted's follow up. What he said.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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