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#218219 - 03/28/12 09:35 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: pdx rick]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: california rick
After watching a Frontline article stating that Alan Greenspan was a "disciple" of Ayn Rand and how his "free market economist" program helped bring America to its knees, I'm not so keen on Ayn Rand and her free market principles.

One of the lies being propagated is that Greenspan was somehow the archetect of a free market economy and it was a "free market" economy that was the source of the latest clusterf..k. To recognize how utterly rediculous and disengenuous this is one need only realize that an institution such as the federal reserve is the absolute antithesis of a free market.
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#218226 - 03/28/12 11:06 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11987
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: issodhos
To recognize how utterly rediculous and disengenuous this is one need only realize that an institution such as the federal reserve is the absolute antithesis of a free market.
Issodhos


If the mafia is the antithesis of the FBI, that would imply that the FBI could not infiltrate it's agents into the mafia, but they can.


I do not deny that The FED is largely the opposite of the free market.... but that does not prove that it would be impossible to find a person more favorable to the free market to run the place... and the SEC for that matter also.

THe fact is that, despite the apparent irony, Alan Greenspan was quite effective in reducing the regulatory impact of the Fed as compared to a Fed chairman who actually believed that Fed economic regulation was important an necessary.

Exactly the same dynamic could be seen at the Bush SEC... where an organization dedicated to market regulation was essentially neutered by a person who did not believe it was a good thing to interfere with the market.

As far as lying is concerned... what is clearly a lie is for anyone to state (or imply) that the chairmen if the FED can have no impact to shape the organization into a more or less of an effective regulatory force. It is a a absolute fact that Greenspan was not in favor of fed regulation and led the Fed in a way to minimize its regulatory impact
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"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
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#218229 - 03/29/12 12:04 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11987
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Mr Greenspan said

Quote:
a humbled Mr. Greenspan admitted that he had put too much faith in the self-correcting power of free markets and had failed to anticipate the self-destructive power of wanton mortgage lending.
link


What are the implications of the above statement?

1. Mr Greenspan trusted in free markets rather than regulation

2. Mr. Greenspan could have intervened to prevent the mortgage debacle... but chose not to.... certainly in part because he felt it to be unnecessary given that markets are self regulating.

this does not mean that the Greenspan led fed did not intervene in the markets.... it does mean that he avoided significant opportunities to avoid the coming crash....
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#218238 - 03/29/12 07:40 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36903
Loc: Portland, Oregon
The same free market guys from the Clinton Administration are in the Obama Administration: (sans Greenspan) Summers, Geitner, Bernanke.
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#218239 - 03/29/12 07:47 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: issodhos]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36903
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: issodhos
One of the lies being propagated is that Greenspan was somehow the archetect of a free market economy and it was a "free market" economy that was the source of the latest clusterf..k. To recognize how utterly rediculous and disengenuous this is one need only realize that an institution such as the federal reserve is the absolute antithesis of a free market.
Issodhos

Frontline addressed that issue on another airing stating that Greenspan had to legally support laws that he abhorred. But, to the extent possible, Mr. Greenspan was completely hands-off, and promoted no regulation of the market.

Frontline: The Warning

Given that Greenspan had set Fed policy for several decades of presidential Administrations, his policies did in fact lead to the mid-2000s crisis.

Now, we have Greenspan's younger colleagues, from that time period, running the show. This is why Wall Street is getting all of the passes that its getting today.
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#218250 - 03/29/12 11:43 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11987
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: california rick
The same free market guys from the Clinton Administration are in the Obama Administration: (sans Greenspan) Summers, Geitner, Bernanke.


Giethner, Summers and Bernanke are not Free Market ideologues.... they did join in the free market "group think" that was common in the 90s-and 2000s


One of the less known impacts of Greenspan was that he came to be known as some sort of infallible genius of he time. Therefore he was often asked for his views on situations outside his authority.... like whether there should be regulation of derivatives. And of course Greenspan most always successively set the tone for reduced no no regulation.

Greenspan had a unique style that he developed at the fed..... he would talk on and on with arcane verbiage whose meaning was barely comprehensible. You would know generally wheather he was for or against something, but it would be impossible to argue against his position because he seemed to be operating at a level beyond mere mortals.... and so his pronouncements carried the day like some incontrovertible, incomprehensible soothsayer.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#218251 - 03/29/12 11:53 AM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11987
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: california rick


Now, we have Greenspan's younger colleagues, from that time period, running the show. This is why Wall Street is getting all of the passes that its getting today.


FWIW, I think the group think has changed... even if the net output remains similar.

In the Greenspan era, their was near religious faith in free markets. In the present era, there is a skulking terror that one or more of the too big to fail dominoes will fall.... and the whole house of cards will come crashing down..... much like predicted by both Itstarted and Iss.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#218281 - 03/29/12 03:59 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: itstarted]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Quote:

If the mafia is the antithesis of the FBI....

WHAT A STRANGE IDEA !!


Edited by numan (03/29/12 04:00 PM)
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#218301 - 03/29/12 05:50 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36903
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Ardy
One of the less known impacts of Greenspan was that he came to be known as some sort of infallible genius of he time. Therefore he was often asked for his views on situations outside his authority.... like whether there should be regulation of derivatives. And of course Greenspan most always successively set the tone for reduced no no regulation.

Frontline shows Greenspan to be front and center in strong opposition to Brooksley Born's CFTC. Greenspan was more than an advice giver... Hmm
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#218302 - 03/29/12 05:53 PM Re: How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36903
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Ardy
..and the whole house of cards will come crashing down..... much like predicted by both Itstarted and Iss.

The 'House of Cards' charade needs to come clean at some point-in-time.
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