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#218934 - 04/04/12 06:53 AM GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocket If Plan Not Implemented


Quote:
The Government Accountability Office, which audits federal spending, has concluded that the national debt would rise precipitously if President Obama's health care legislation doesn't go into effect.

A report titled "The Federal Government's Long-Term Fiscal Outlook" states that several parts of the health plan "were designed to control the growth of health care costs. The full implementation and effectiveness of these cost-control provisions... would slow the growth in federal health care spending over the long term."

If the legislation were thrown out, though, the forecast becomes considerably more gloomy. The report does not go into detail about the consequences of an invalidated law — but as TPM reports, it clearly implies that "if key cost-control measures in the law, and other automatic cuts to Medicare spending baked into current law, are ignored, or overridden by Congress, the implications for the national debt are vast."


Another day, another nail in the GOP coffin
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#218937 - 04/04/12 09:02 AM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
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Loc: Highlands, Tx
the standard conservative response is the GAO is in the pocket of the marxist socialist Obama WH and therefore is not credible

pretty easy to dispense of the facts in that manner ... {gavel pounding sound block} next case
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#218938 - 04/04/12 09:17 AM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
While in actuality the GAO is an arm of the Congress.
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#218945 - 04/04/12 11:47 AM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11514
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
of course this all assume that republicans would not address the problem.... by repealing medicare for example
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#218946 - 04/04/12 12:27 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11514
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Ted
JUst want to point out as a matter of interest that by following board rules, you created a misleading and inflammatory headline that seems to say that Obama care would swell the debt, instead of the fact that its repeal is what would swell the debt.

Scofflaw that I am, I would have edited the headline to read
GAO: Obamacare repeal would swell the debt
then I would have put the actual headline as the first sentence of the thread.... but that would have been wrong, very wrong ROTFMOL
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#218947 - 04/04/12 12:28 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6320
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Ted Remington
GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocket If Plan Not Implemented


Quote:
The Government Accountability Office, which audits federal spending, has concluded that the national debt would rise precipitously if President Obama's health care legislation doesn't go into effect.

A report titled "The Federal Government's Long-Term Fiscal Outlook" states that several parts of the health plan "were designed to control the growth of health care costs. The full implementation and effectiveness of these cost-control provisions... would slow the growth in federal health care spending over the long term."

If the legislation were thrown out, though, the forecast becomes considerably more gloomy. The report does not go into detail about the consequences of an invalidated law — but as TPM reports, it clearly implies that "if key cost-control measures in the law, and other automatic cuts to Medicare spending baked into current law, are ignored, or overridden by Congress, the implications for the national debt are vast."


Another day, another nail in the GOP coffin


Makes it all that much more important to throw this legislation out and start over with an actual bi-partisan effort at fixing the problem. There has to be a middle ground. We cannot allow Congress to have unfettered power over the citizens of the United States, if that were to happen then violent revolution would probably be the result. Given the choice between being a slave to the whims of Congress and getting free healthcare or living as a free American and paying for my healthcare, I would become a prostitute to pay for it.

I do not care how much rejection of this disaster costs, it must go down in such a way that never again will Congress try to do anything even remotely similar. Even default is cheaper than the eventual servitude that the individual mandate allows Congress to impose upon America.


Edited by Ma_Republican (04/04/12 12:29 PM)
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#218948 - 04/04/12 12:31 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ma_Republican]
2wins Offline
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Quote:
There has to be a middle ground.
sadly, this legislation is the middle ground. if it were not the middle ground, then we would have single payer.
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#218949 - 04/04/12 12:32 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ma_Republican]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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A mandate to either buy insurance or pay a penalty is now "servitude"? Ma, you really don't know what servitude is do you?

Servitude is having to pay for the adventurous war making machine, not being able to marry who I want, having to pledge allegiance "under God", having my vote overruled by the SCOTUS, and any number of other consequences of the 99% dominating life in the most minute detail.

Your definition is laughable and pathetic.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#218955 - 04/04/12 12:56 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
keysersoze Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 880
In Massachusetts the costs of RomneyCare exceeded projections. Bad economy. folks finding loopholes and additional mandates imposed by the legislature.

Fiscal issues with Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security will be repeated with health care legislation. Warning flags are there. May take decades but there will be some horrendous fiscal issues. Congress and president should have their irons out getting the wrinkles in order - fat chance.
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#218964 - 04/04/12 01:34 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11723
As was noted, this was the "middle way," that is, until the rabidly partisan GOP and its allies (Heritage Foundation, et al) saw another opportunity to kill any progress that might possibly occur under a Democratic President. Although Ma R would be loathe to admit it, because it doesn't support the GOP narrative ofthe rabid-conservative wing of the party, this President embarked on a monumental consensus-building path at the outset of his presidency, and bent over backwards to accommodate Republican, centrist ideas in his policies, much to the chagrin of his party and the left wing of the electorate. He firmly believed that a good idea, pragmatic idea, regardless of its source, would win over a majority of the legislature. Thus, he pursued 'cap and trade' - a Republican mantra for more than a decade - as a means of addressing environmental pollutants; and he adopted the insurance mandate - the plan of the Heritage foundation, supported by the majority of the Republicans in Congress, and the leadership (including Newt Gingrich, John Boehner and Mitch McConnell), because he naively believed they would support a plan they proposed, and by adopting their plan, he could get overwhelming support for a fundamentally necessary corrective for the country. Unfortunately, neither he nor Boehner understood that the dynamics had changed since the GOP was in the minority, and that "opposition at all cost, on everything" was the new policy of the party.

Now they want to claim that it was "passed along party lines" as if that were the fault of the Democrats. It is a bald-faced lie, by two-faced hypocrites with no interest in the good of the nation or its citizenry, and only the interest of party supremacy in mind.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218966 - 04/04/12 01:43 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6320
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
A mandate to either buy insurance or pay a penalty is now "servitude"? Ma, you really don't know what servitude is do you?

Servitude is having to pay for the adventurous war making machine, not being able to marry who I want, having to pledge allegiance "under God", having my vote overruled by the SCOTUS, and any number of other consequences of the 99% dominating life in the most minute detail.

Your definition is laughable and pathetic.


As I have said already, allowing Congress to compell the entire population to purchase a product from a private company is unacceptable. It is absolute power in the hands of people who cannot be trusted.

I have faith in human nature and do not believe in the fantacy that even if given the absolute power that the mandate give them, congress would never abuse it. Human nature say it will be used and will be abused.

The difference between a lawuer and somebody who actually makes a living of of something other than the agony of others is that people look at an issue and understands what should and a lawyer looks at the same issue and understands how it can be corrupted. Since Congress is overwhelmingly made up of lawyers, then corruption is in their nature.

Phil, I don't care who you screw and neither does most of America. Giving congress this power has nothing to do with your dating preferences.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#218967 - 04/04/12 01:45 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: 2wins]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6320
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: 2wins
Quote:
There has to be a middle ground.
sadly, this legislation is the middle ground. if it were not the middle ground, then we would have single payer.


Like everything else related to this administration, this is about Obama and his place in history. If this were actually middle ground there would have been Reps voting yes and dems voting no. This is a power grab, and it must be stopped.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#218969 - 04/04/12 01:56 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6320
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As was noted, this was the "middle way," that is, until the rabidly partisan GOP and its allies (Heritage Foundation, et al) saw another opportunity to kill any progress that might possibly occur under a Democratic President. Although Ma R would be loathe to admit it, because it doesn't support the GOP narrative ofthe rabid-conservative wing of the party, this President embarked on a monumental consensus-building path at the outset of his presidency, and bent over backwards to accommodate Republican, centrist ideas in his policies, much to the chagrin of his party and the left wing of the electorate. He firmly believed that a good idea, pragmatic idea, regardless of its source, would win over a majority of the legislature. Thus, he pursued 'cap and trade' - a Republican mantra for more than a decade - as a means of addressing environmental pollutants; and he adopted the insurance mandate - the plan of the Heritage foundation, supported by the majority of the Republicans in Congress, and the leadership (including Newt Gingrich, John Boehner and Mitch McConnell), because he naively believed they would support a plan they proposed, and by adopting their plan, he could get overwhelming support for a fundamentally necessary corrective for the country. Unfortunately, neither he nor Boehner understood that the dynamics had changed since the GOP was in the minority, and that "opposition at all cost, on everything" was the new policy of the party.

Now they want to claim that it was "passed along party lines" as if that were the fault of the Democrats. It is a bald-faced lie, by two-faced hypocrites with no interest in the good of the nation or its citizenry, and only the interest of party supremacy in mind.


The President doesn't have a consensus building bone in his body. His opinion of his power was that it got less every day he was in office and he was going to abuse it as often as he could while people still had to listen to him. Look, I agree with his approach, but he carried it too far, he tried to steal from the middle class and the poor to take care of the cheats and hang abouts, the Democratic Party's core constituency. As things have started going bad, he has started acting like a bore and a child. The commerce clause may have been abused in the past, and probably will be in the futre, but it should not be allowed to be abused in this matter.

I do not care what the plan is, mandating that America buy something will not fly, should not fly and cannot be forced down the throats of America.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#218970 - 04/04/12 01:59 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyr [Re: Phil Hoskins]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Servitude is having to pay for the adventurous war making machine, not being able to marry who I want, having to pledge allegiance "under God", having my vote overruled by the SCOTUS, and any number of other consequences of the 99% dominating life in the most minute detail.

I think you are quite correct, Phil -- except that I would say that these outrages are a result of the one-percent dominating life, not the 99%.

IMO, the one-percent use their control of the propaganda machines to whip up the 99% into a frenzy of hysteria and unreason, in order to keep them distracted with frivolous nonsense, lest they begin to think about things which really matter.

IMO, the gibbering of the right-wing over medical insurance is just another triumph of the American Brainwashing Machine. Any problems with the program are the result of Obama not getting his way to a single-payer system, as exists in the civilized countries. IMO, the roadblocks the right-wing has put in the way of such a system verges on treason, since they seem determined to bankrupt the country, as well as do financial and medical harm to its citizens.


Edited by numan (04/04/12 02:16 PM)
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#218971 - 04/04/12 02:08 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ma_Republican]
2wins Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7614
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: 2wins
Quote:
There has to be a middle ground.
sadly, this legislation is the middle ground. if it were not the middle ground, then we would have single payer.


Like everything else related to this administration, this is about Obama and his place in history. If this were actually middle ground there would have been Reps voting yes and dems voting no. This is a power grab, and it must be stopped.
well ma, i'll give you credit for being partially correct, which means you were partially wrong. of the house repubs, there were no aye votes. however, of the dems, there were 34 nay votes. you can read it for yourself here. that said, i call bull s*** on you. the vote was in fact split down the middle of the house and yet it passed through to the senate etc. you can try and paint this anyway you like, but the fact of the matter is, from the compromises made in the bill - compromises you might recall that were agreed upon by the likes of boehner and company who later pulled support - to the split vote this bill is the middle ground. i guess we could sum it all up by asking if you and your gop ilk would like cheese with that whine? a whine you took all the way to scotus because you couldn't get it the legitimate way, sorta like the 2000 presidential election. hmmmm.
_________________________
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#218982 - 04/04/12 02:43 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ma_Republican]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20557
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Quote:
The difference between a lawuer and somebody who actually makes a living of of something other than the agony of others is that people look at an issue and understands what should and a lawyer looks at the same issue and understands how it can be corrupted. Since Congress is overwhelmingly made up of lawyers, then corruption is in their nature.

Tim, as a lawyer that is disgusting. I have helped more people in my lifetime than you have ever even met. You like to slander large swaths of people without knowing them only because of bigotry and false assumptions.

If you really want to have a discussion drop the superior than thou attitude and have at least half an ounce of humility.

Absolutely putrid comment.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#218983 - 04/04/12 02:44 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyr [Re: numan]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20557
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Of course you are correct, Numan, I misspoke about the 99-1%
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#218987 - 04/04/12 03:12 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11514
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Quote:
The difference between a lawuer and somebody who actually makes a living of of something other than the agony of others is that people look at an issue and understands what should and a lawyer looks at the same issue and understands how it can be corrupted. Since Congress is overwhelmingly made up of lawyers, then corruption is in their nature.

Tim, as a lawyer that is disgusting. I have helped more people in my lifetime than you have ever even met. You like to slander large swaths of people without knowing them only because of bigotry and false assumptions.

If you really want to have a discussion drop the superior than thou attitude and have at least half an ounce of humility.

Absolutely putrid comment.


Phil
I agree with your comment
but would only point out that very often a lawyer who helps one person may be perceived in the opposite way by a counter party
_________________________

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

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#218988 - 04/04/12 03:14 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyr [Re: Ted Remington]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11723
Ma R, there was a time, or I believed there was, when it was possible to carry on a rational discussion on such a topic. You have admitted that there are too many people without healthcare. This was a solution, originating with conservatives, to address a real problem in the United States. It was, without question, a compromise, market-based solution, that the President proposed as a compromise with Republican leadership. Yet, here at least, you persist with the most baseless, partisan rhetoric about there not being a consensus bone in the president's body, when you absolutely have to know that is not true. I don't get it. Is it just easier to spout this stuff than consider the issue? Do you have a recommendation on how to solve it? Have you seen any proposal, I'm not even requiring a "workable" one, that has come from a Republican to address it? (And, I don't consider an "eliminate medicare" a solution to this acknowledged problem.)
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218990 - 04/04/12 03:20 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ardy]
Scoutgal Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 25787
Loc: CA USA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Ted
JUst want to point out as a matter of interest that by following board rules, you created a misleading and inflammatory headline that seems to say that Obama care would swell the debt, instead of the fact that its repeal is what would swell the debt.

Scofflaw that I am, I would have edited the headline to read
GAO: Obamacare repeal would swell the debt
then I would have put the actual headline as the first sentence of the thread.... but that would have been wrong, very wrong ROTFMOL


The title of the thread accurately reflects the title of the article. I have clicked on the link, and the titles are the same. No more swiping at each other. If anyone has a problem with any other poster/moderator, take it to the PMs/ Leave the kvetching and snarkiness towards one another off the public threads. Don't make me get my whip out... devil

Scoutgal
Administrator
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milk and Girl Scout cookies ;-)

Save your breath-You may need it to blow up your date.





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#218991 - 04/04/12 03:20 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyr [Re: Ted Remington]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11723
I have a response to that, too, Phil. "Next time you're in trouble, ask a comedian for advice."
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218992 - 04/04/12 03:21 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ardy]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20557
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Ardy, without taking this too far off topic, many if not most lawyers do not have a "counter party". For example, I do estate planning. It is entirely for the benefit of my client and those he or she chooses to pass their estate to. There is no opposing party.

Likewise, all transactional lawyers, those who work for governments (non-prosecutors) etc simply turn out documents and analyses for their client. The notion that lawyers somehow take advantage of people or all the rest of Tim's fantasies are crap of the grandest sort.

Sorry for the diversion, but when attacked with such hateful and inaccurate statements I do not let them stand unchallenged.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#218993 - 04/04/12 03:29 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Scoutgal]
Scoutgal Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 25787
Loc: CA USA
Originally Posted By: MA_Republican
The difference between a lawuer and somebody who actually makes a living of of something other than the agony of others is that people look at an issue and understands what should and a lawyer looks at the same issue and understands how it can be corrupted. Since Congress is overwhelmingly made up of lawyers, then corruption is in their nature.


Aren't you advocating lawyers taking the ACA before the SCOTUS, in order to get it overturned? It seems that you don't mind lawyers then. I love it how people whine about things that bother them until they need it. rolleyes
_________________________
milk and Girl Scout cookies ;-)

Save your breath-You may need it to blow up your date.





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#218998 - 04/04/12 03:47 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11723
It is all the rhetorical rage, nowadays. Why limit discussion to the facts, when you can invent your own? Why simply disagree with the principle, when you can supply a derisive label for your opponent to distract from the lack of substance to your position? Why limit yourself to expressing worry about potential ramifications, when you can invoke armageddon?

I admit, that I have occasionally succumbed as a response, and am working hard to overcome that. When life is hard on you, it can leak out in unexpected ways. What I don't understand is, when life is good to you, what is the source of the bitterness?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#218999 - 04/04/12 03:51 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ted Remington]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
veteran

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11723
It may also be appropriate to point out that the majority of Congress is not lawyers, although 60% of the Senate is. Healthcare providers make up another large block.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#219000 - 04/04/12 04:00 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyr [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6320
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Ma R, there was a time, or I believed there was, when it was possible to carry on a rational discussion on such a topic. You have admitted that there are too many people without healthcare. This was a solution, originating with conservatives, to address a real problem in the United States. It was, without question, a compromise, market-based solution, that the President proposed as a compromise with Republican leadership. Yet, here at least, you persist with the most baseless, partisan rhetoric about there not being a consensus bone in the president's body, when you absolutely have to know that is not true. I don't get it. Is it just easier to spout this stuff than consider the issue? Do you have a recommendation on how to solve it? Have you seen any proposal, I'm not even requiring a "workable" one, that has come from a Republican to address it? (And, I don't consider an "eliminate medicare" a solution to this acknowledged problem.)


Can we forget about Obamacare for a moment? It will or not be upheld by SCOTUS, and the results of that decision will reverberate across the political spectrum. The was no compromise, Obama refused, and still refuses, to compromise on anything. As I stated at the beginning, there has to be an alternative. This law places too much power in Congress' hands, and that amount of power is definately not what the writers of the Constitution had in mind when they wrote it. People keep telling us that the individual mandate was a republican idea, it was not, it was an idea by a republican think tank and it was not a very well thought out idea. Each state had the right to regulate their citizens, the Fed does not unless the Commerce Clause is somehow to blame. I would suggest that we eliminate the Commerce Clause along with Obamacare.

After Obamacare is decided there will be a discussion on what can be done to replace it. People who actually want to accomplish something other than to make history should be able to create a law that works. It doesn't have to eliminate Medicare, but for a solution to be found Obamacare does have to be eliminated.
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#219001 - 04/04/12 04:43 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyr [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 4788
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
it was an idea by a republican think tank and it was not a very well thought out idea

so you saying that the heritage foundation and cato institute purvey articles that are not well thought out but are regurgitated by every right wing talk show host as the intellectual firepower of conservatism???? and i thought you guys were the smart ones

Quote:
After Obamacare is decided there will be a discussion on what can be done to replace it

republicans already addressed that by saying they were not going to do anything if repealed i.e. there will be no replacement

good luck with that one person conversation with yourself
_________________________
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#219009 - 04/04/12 05:39 PM GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Ma R,
To quote the Republican Saint('s scriptwriter), "there you go again..."
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#219012 - 04/04/12 05:55 PM GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: Ma_Republican]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Sorry, rp, that last response was supposed to start my reply to Ma R...
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Can we forget about Obamacare for a moment?
Um, no. This is a thread about Obamacare, and what would happen if it were not in place, so let us not depart too far from that subject.

What I meant with regard to "there you go again..." is this:
Quote:
The[re] was no compromise, Obama refused, and still refuses, to compromise on anything.
It is that sort of blatant mischaracterization of reality that dooms discussions from getting to relevancy. It is pure talking point hyperbole, and not connected, even marginally, to reality.

Quote:
As I stated at the beginning, there has to be an alternative.
So... SUGGEST ONE! It has been pointed out innumerable times, in a variety of contexts, including this thread, that the gist of the plan that was implemented was proposed by Republicans and conservative think tanks to counteract the kind of scorched earth techniques that killed Clinton's reform effort 20 years ago. Now you want to say that it was not Republicans, but conservative think tanks that are responsible for it, but that dog just don't hunt. Two words: Newt Gingrich.

Now, if you have an alternative, suggest one. Here's the current GOP solution: <crickets>

The only real alternative now is Medicare for all. This plan was a compromise made in an effort at bipartisanship (regardless of unsubstantiated talking points to the contrary). The argument that each State can provide its own solution is not feasible because most States do not have a large enough population base to accomplish it. For big States like Massachusetts, New York, California, Texas... it could potentially work, but again, only with a mandate. That is what makes the plan work. Wyoming, Montana, Dakotas... can't work. Of course, if someone understood how that plan works, that might make a difference in the discussion.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#219017 - 04/04/12 07:45 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: NW Ponderer]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Quote:
Health care reform was a major topic of discussion during the 2008 Democratic presidential primaries. As the race narrowed, attention focused on the plans presented by the two leading candidates, New York Senator Hillary Clinton and the eventual nominee, Illinois Senator Barack Obama. Each candidate proposed a plan to cover the approximately 45 million Americans estimated to be without health insurance at some point during each year. One point of difference between the plans was that Clinton's plan was to require all Americans to obtain coverage (in effect, an individual health insurance mandate), while Obama's was to provide a subsidy but not create a direct requirement.

During the general election campaign between Obama and the Republican nominee, Arizona Senator John McCain, Obama said that fixing health care would be one of his four priorities if he won the presidency.[119] After his inauguration, Obama announced to a joint session of Congress in February 2009 that he would begin working with Congress to construct a plan for health care reform.[120] On March 5, 2009, Obama formally began the reform process and held a conference with industry leaders to discuss reform and requested reform be enacted before the Congressional summer recess; but the reform was not passed by the requested date.[121] In July 2009, a series of bills were approved by committees within the House of Representatives.[122] Beginning June 17, 2009, and extending through September 14, 2009, three Democratic and three Republican Senate Finance Committee Members met for a series of 31 meetings to discuss the development of a health care reform bill. Over the course of the next three months, this group, Senators Max Baucus (D-Montana), Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota), Olympia Snowe (R-Maine), Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico), and Mike Enzi (R-Wyoming), met for more than 60 hours, and the principles that they discussed became the foundation of the Senate's health care reform bill.[123] The meetings were held in public and broadcast by C-Span and can be seen on the C-Span web site [124] or at the Committee's own web site.[125] During the August 2009 congressional recess, many members went back to their districts and entertained town hall meetings to solicit public opinion on the proposals. During the summer recess, the Tea Party movement organized protests and many conservative groups and individuals targeted congressional town hall meetings to voice their opposition to the proposed reform bills.[121][126]

Away from the televised meetings, the legislation became a "bonanza" for lobbyists,[127][128] including secret deals that were initially denied but subsequently confirmed.[129][130] The Sunlight Foundation documented many of the reported ties between "the healthcare lobbyist complex" and politicians in both major parties.[131]

President Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress supporting reform and again outlining his proposals.[132][133] On November 7, the House of Representatives passed the Affordable Health Care for America Act on a 220–215 vote and forwarded it to the Senate for passage.[121][134]

The Senate bill, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, bore similarities to a Republican healthcare reform proposal in 1993, the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act of 1993;[135] a 1994 Republican proposal under the Consumer Choice Health Security Act was similar in that it contained an individual mandate.[
Link
Quote:
Republican and Democrat congressional representatives introduced 133 health care and related bills during the 111th session of Congress (Jan. 2009 - Dec. 2009). Many Democrats supported measures such as the public option and individual mandate, while many Republicans opposed increasing government spending and control on health care. On Nov. 7, 2009 the House Democrats garnered a vote of 220-215 to approve the Affordable Health Care for America Act (HR 3962). Only one Republican, Anh Cao (R-LA), voted for the bill, and 39 Democrats voted against it. The bill was estimated to cost $1.1 trillion, provide coverage for 36 million uninsured Americans, and create a government health insurance program. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that the bill would reduce the federal deficit by $118 billion over 2010-2019.
Link

Now Ma, please give us your links showing Obama was unwilling to compromise.

coffee
_________________________
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You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#219019 - 04/04/12 08:02 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 4788
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
blatant mischaracterization

i ask the question of what criteria was used and invariably i get deflection, for the obvious reason there is no criteria, but for conservatives they have to fire up their folks

Quote:
the current GOP solution

i was most interested in the republicans repeal alternative when in subcommittee and when asked they responded with the state solution and you pointed out, it is a bleak prospect.

I am not sure simply medicare even as fairly successful program would qualify as the solution. Medicare is currently nothing more than a reactive response to rising health care costs. A more aggressive approach I believe would be better. Without capping health care costs, they will continue to rise and insurance premiums will follow predictably. ACA addresses some of these problems. A recent article stated that 9 medical boards have suggested that there are 45 tests or procedures which could be eliminated as unnecessary and that some 80% of doctors routinely order unnecessary tests but that is just the tip of the iceberg of costs. As new medical technologies come online the commensurate costs continue to rise. Hospital costs rise and physician costs rise, so what are we to do?

O gee wait a sec ... doesn;t ACA address these? A first attempt at a solution. A good solution will of necessity address all of these problems and more both aggressively and comprehensively.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#219021 - 04/04/12 08:37 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: rporter314]
Chuck Howard Offline
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Registered: 09/17/01
Posts: 6723
Loc: Philly 'burbs
If the individual mandate was not a Republican idea, then Newt Gingrich is not a Republican.

Newt's support of the individul mandate

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#219024 - 04/04/12 09:20 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: Chuck Howard]
2wins Offline
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 7614
Loc: Barely above Sea Level
Originally Posted By: Chuck Howard
If the individual mandate was not a Republican idea, then Newt Gingrich is not a Republican.

Newt's support of the individul mandate

it's not wonder republicans hate the media so much. everything they say and do is recorded somewhere, just waiting to come back and bite them in the arse.
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sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!

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#219064 - 04/05/12 01:02 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Ma???? Where is your evidence?

(not holding my breath)
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Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#219068 - 04/05/12 01:11 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Chuck Howard Offline
old hand

Registered: 09/17/01
Posts: 6723
Loc: Philly 'burbs
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Ma???? Where is your evidence?

(not holding my breath)


Please, please don't hold your breath. We all enjoy your participation on this board to risk you dying of asphyxiation.

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#219070 - 04/05/12 01:15 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Chuck Howard Offline
old hand

Registered: 09/17/01
Posts: 6723
Loc: Philly 'burbs
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Ma???? Where is your evidence?

(not holding my breath)


Phil, he's probably looking for that evidence right now!

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#219075 - 04/05/12 01:31 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: Chuck Howard]
Scoutgal Offline
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Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 25787
Loc: CA USA
Originally Posted By: Chuck Howard
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Ma???? Where is your evidence?

(not holding my breath)


Phil, he's probably looking for that evidence right now!


ROTFMOL
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milk and Girl Scout cookies ;-)

Save your breath-You may need it to blow up your date.





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#219078 - 04/05/12 01:50 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: Scoutgal]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 11723
Compromise rulings on the The Obameter I just thought a little reality-based discussion might be in order.

I feel a little like Ma R might be feeling dumped on, being the lone Republican willing to engage on this subject. And I do think it is important to understand other points of view, and what they are based upon.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#219123 - 04/05/12 07:34 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 4788
Loc: Highlands, Tx
your link is to commie lies

right wing radio talk show hosts invariably say Pres Obama does not nor will ever compromise with republicans/conservatives.

I interpret that to mean he is not an ultra extremist conservative radical ... it is the closest to making any sense but of course it doesn't explain the lack of compromise from republicans/conservative on any contentious issue i.e. they disingenuously participate as they vote against it

i am not sure how they make sense of anything ... o it could be they don't
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#219130 - 04/05/12 08:29 PM Re: GAO: Nat. Debt Would Skyrocket If No Obamacare [Re: rporter314]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 20557
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Isn't it one of the tactics of those seeking to dominate a person to speak in what seem to be disconnected, conflicting and senseless ways so that it becomes more difficult over time to think clearly?

Just sayin
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#219198 - 04/06/12 02:57 PM Re: GAO Obamacare Report: National Debt Would Skyrocke [Re: Ma_Republican]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
We cannot allow Congress to have unfettered power over the citizens of the United States, if that were to happen then violent revolution would probably be the result. Given the choice between being a slave to the whims of Congress and getting free healthcare or living as a free American and paying for my healthcare, I would become a prostitute to pay for it.

I do not care how much rejection of this disaster costs, it must go down in such a way that never again will Congress try to do anything even remotely similar. Even default is cheaper than the eventual servitude that the individual mandate allows Congress to impose upon America.


Uhhh...yeah Ma, I see your middle ground there.

tonbricks <<---Ma paying for health care
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to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

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